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#179 - Samuel Burr
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Debut novelist, amateur puzzle enthusiast and TV executive, Samuel Burr joins us this week to talk about his debut novel "The Fellowship of Puzzlemakers" and how it came to be including an unbelievably fast pre-empt after just 4 hours of going out on submission.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You could have fixed plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble. Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong Podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a television executive and author whose debut novel, The Fellowship of Puzzle Makers came out earlier this year. It's Samuel Burr. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Delighted to be here. Thanks for coming on.
Debut Novel: The Fellowship of Puzzle Makers
00:00:32
Speaker
Excited to to to have you, speak with you. Kicking things off as always, let's talk about the book, your debut novel, The Fellowship of Puzzle Makers. Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:42
Speaker
So it is a kind of mystery and coming of age novel. um It's the story of a young man called Clayton Stumper. Clayton has sort of, I say he's grown old before he's grown up. He's a bit of a young fogey like myself. um He dresses like your granddad and drinks sherry like your aunt. And at 25 years of age finds himself as one of the last surviving members of this very British institution, which is The Fellowship. and This is a commune made up of some of the smartest, most brilliant minds in the country. So we've got a maze maker, a quiz setter, jigsaw artist, um a crossword compiler, to name just a few. and But there's a mystery at the heart of the fellowship, um a puzzle that's yet to be solved, and that is how Clayton came to be there and where he's come from.
00:01:28
Speaker
So in the novel, when the founder of the Fellowship, an esteemed cruciverbalist called Pippa Alsbruck passes away, she's a crossword compiler, and she leaves behind her final puzzle to Clayton. And then we follow him on that quest as he begins to piece together the clues of his past and also find himself at the same time. It's a lovely setup. I love the idea that of this organisation that are just like the the ultimate puzzle creators in the in the world. ah you must be To write something like this, you must be someone who enjoys puzzles yourself.
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, i was I sort of described myself as an enthusiastic amateur, but um suddenly, sort of writing this book, I realised that I was going to have to construct and and create my own puzzles, and that's something I've never ever done. So that's been probably one of the biggest and hurdles and challenges all the way through, is and yeah creating a ah ah variety of puzzles that form part of the book and part of the story. I always loved the idea of you know creating a novel that um that you could read and that you could play um and to have that sort of interactive element and using puzzles to sort of unlock um parts of a mystery story. So yeah, it has been
Influence of Documentary on Themes
00:02:40
Speaker
great fun. um I'm not going to lie, there were moments, ah particularly in the edit, where I was pulling my hair out and thinking, oh my god, what have I done? I've bitten off far more than I can chew. But we got there in the end, finally. I think writing any book actually is a bit like
00:02:53
Speaker
you know, doing a bit of a jigsaw. It's all about sort of finding the right places to things and but trying to work out what you're missing, yeah building up those links. So I think, yeah, it's always hard writing a novel, but I've made it particularly difficult having these puzzles of entwined within the story. um But yeah, ultimately, I'm really happy with how it's come out. in the end. Yeah, I think that's so true of writing and like the more drafts you do, the like more challenging the jigsaw puzzle becomes. Oh my god, totally. You change one piece and it's just the whole thing goes. So yeah, no, it's ah any writer I think will identify with that. For sure. And Amaran thinking that this was inspired by a documentary that you made when you were 18.
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, so on my sort of break in TV came about because I was at college and during the summer holiday um my friend Danny and I decided to make a documentary. um So we borrowed like a camera from the college department and a tripod. And we decided we were gonna make a film about the residents of this retirement village in warden on Thames. um It's quite a unique place because it had been set up over a hundred years ago um by a man who left money in his will to sort of support.
00:04:11
Speaker
older people who didn't have the means to care for themselves. So there were just amazing stories of people turning up at those front gates of this retirement village and sort of starting again and having a sort of second chance at life, you know, in this incredible, almost like a center parks village. And and yeah, Danny and I, we moved into this retirement village ah as 18 year olds, to film the the documentary in which we lived there for a couple of weeks. And um Yeah, it was kind of extraordinary and extraordinary because I think I ah realized at that point I loved spending time with older people because, you know, every door that we knocked on, every single person we met in that retirement village, they all had secrets up their sleeves and they all had the best stories. They all had a story to tell. um It's sort of hard to get to that point in your life in your 80s or 90s and not have a couple of good stories up your sleeve. so
00:05:05
Speaker
I loved that about them. But I also, the thing that I sort of took from it, which I always thought was quite funny was how by the end of the time we'd spent, Danny and I, my friend, would we were exhausted by their social lives. They were so busy every night doing something else. Their activity schedule was just wild. So they were doing like drama club, they had bowls club, they had darts, they were doing dance lessons. like They were sort of living every day like it was their last. And it was quite an interesting sort of wake up call for me as an 18 year old. I've always been quite an old soul. Like I said earlier, I'm sort of old before my time. And I feel like I'm just a 90
Themes of Connection and Community
00:05:43
Speaker
year old man. I'm just sort of slowly catching up with myself. But yeah, that experience sort of ah it was funny in that we i I sort of felt like I was older at heart than they were. And so the idea of writing a story where a young person lives in a very old world but is much older at heart than the people he lives with um was something that I've always been intrigued by.
00:06:05
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's been sort of bubbling away in my head for quite a while and it's taken a while, but yeah, I finally put pen to paper and um yeah, the fellowship is the result. Wow. Okay. So it is quite, a if someone told you the pitch for this, you'd be like, oh, well, this must be like pure fiction, but this actually is quite um sort of tied to your own experience and things that you've actually done. kind of I mean, I have to be honest, I haven't been abandoned at birth on the front steps. realm here but i am i
00:06:35
Speaker
yeah i've I've always ah had a great affinity of older people. and yeah i've i've sort of For a number of years now, I've been a volunteer um for an elderly charity and um I've been a sort of telephone befriender. so um During lockdown, what I decided to do was sign up for this scheme that encouraged younger people to take a 30-minute call with an older person who was socially isolated. So these are people that might go days, if not weeks, without seeing or speaking to another human being. And there was something about that particular time in lockdown where everyone was sort of craving social interaction and we were all realising the importance of
00:07:17
Speaker
human connection and community.
Real-life Inspirations and Fictional Elements
00:07:19
Speaker
um yeah I decided to sign up for this scheme and um that also has played a huge part and inspiration for my book because my book is about, you know ah on the surface, it's about a bunch of very clever puzzle makers, but really it's about connections and it's about um human human connections and community and it's a sort celebration of that. and um yeah I've been talking now to my telephone friends um for four years every week and um yeah I decided to sort of use some of her own sort of words and to inspire a character within the book. so um
00:07:58
Speaker
The Fellowship is a kind of, um one of the characters describes it as a kind of utopia. But in a sense, i'm sort of with The Fellowship, what I'm trying to say is, why can't they be like that? Why can't older people you know have a sense of community and it later in life and have ah you know a place where they have you know friends and neighbors and people who share a similar interest to them? I think it's such a wonderful idea. And they do kind of exist, those sort of very specific retirement communities. But um yeah, seeing the experience of this um telephone friend or hearing the experience of this but telephone friend over the years, I wanted to create the fellowship as a sort of alternative alternative um
00:08:38
Speaker
yeah, reality of what it could be, but then also reflect what it can be like for many, many older people in the country. So yeah, there's a character that's directly inspired by my telephone friend who Clayton meets when he steps outside the fellowship and she gives him a sort of sense of what what it is like for some people um later in life. So yeah, I've sort of tried to show, um ah to reflect all of the experiences of, um ah what it can be like for an older person, whether that's to be in a very fortunate position with a sense of community and um to to be in a very unfortunate position where you're isolated and you're alone. So yeah, it's a little bit of both.
00:09:17
Speaker
And then the other sort of large theme is the, you have the young character Clayton who's sort of on this journey of self-discovery, which kind of comes from this great appreciation for the kind of wisdom of elders. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when I talk sometimes about the volunteering I'm doing, often the response is, oh, that's so good of you. And actually it is, you know, I kind of, you know, it takes up time and everything and and on volunteers all obviously do amazing work. But those things only really work if it's mutually beneficial. And I think one of the things that I'm really keen to show in the story is how
00:09:54
Speaker
actually reaching out to older people, um we all have a lot to gain from them. They're an amazing resource that we kind of take for granted. And yeah, Clayton learns a lot from his sort of group of older friends and the people he meets on the outside, um all of their life lessons he sort of benefits from. And yeah, I wanted you to sort of capture that as well. Have you read the Collected Regrets of Clover? No, I haven't. But that that has been mentioned a couple of times now as a sort of a comp title. It is on my radar, but I will have a have a read. Is it is it similar sort of sense? Yeah, Mickey was on the Mickey Brown was the author. She was on the podcast last year. And it's yet it's about a sort of a younger character who um her dedicates herself to basically working at a retirement home and sort of helping older people um in the kind of final moments towards the towards passing.
Audiobook Production Experience
00:10:49
Speaker
Wow, God. I wouldn't be brave enough to do that, but that sounds like a great read. That sounded morbid, but it is, like, quite funny. Of course, yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, in terms of it's the sentiment of like a young person learning from this kind of collected wisdom of of of older people and that this kind of equals that. Before we started recording, you actually mentioned that the audio book for this is available on Spotify Premium. So anyone who has that can just go and listen to that sort of a room. And I'm right in thinking you read the introduction to that? Yeah, it was an absolute bloody nightmare to be honest. It really was excruciatingly bad. and So I went to the studio, I was invited to go to the studio and to see the the art of the readers reading. And I have to be honest, I didn't actually believe that we were going to have the two people that we had these two people lined up to read it. And I just couldn't believe that they were actually going to do it. So we had we had Russell Tovey doing Clayton's part and we had
00:11:50
Speaker
um Penelope Dame Penelope Keith doing a Pippa and I genuinely thought that was some sort of joke or something like the email came through and I was like there's no way that we're going to get there anyway I turned up and there they were in the studio recording And um I was literally watching Penelope Keith read a chapter of the book, and she did I think she did the whole thing. It was like a 3,000 word chapter, it's quite a long one. And she did the whole thing in one take, and it was just perfect. It was absolutely perfect. And the producer was just like, that's perfect. That's great. Let's move on. So she was incredible to watch. And then I had the embarrassing thing of having to go into the studio next to her. and
00:12:31
Speaker
record the introduction. I had to sit in Penelope Keith's seat. It was still warm. I had to sit in her seat and read this introduction that I'd written. And in that moment, I literally not only lost the ability to read but to speak. I just went to absolute bits and she stood over my shoulder and it was just absolutely mortifying. In the end we got there so just skip that bit if you're listening to the audio, but you have to listen to the introduction go straight go straight to the time Penelope She's extraordinary. and She's done such an amazing job. It was this weird thing where I had this meeting with the audio team and Paul said to me
00:13:07
Speaker
Have you got any ideas? am i i When I started writing this book, I had this sort of spreadsheet of all the characters and all their sort of biographical details and things. And I put like a little actor's um photo next to some of the characters, um just for like my own, but you know, use really, just to sort of have that sort of image in my head of what they look like. And um With Pippa, I literally had a picture of Penelope Keith, because I was just like, oh, wow she's actually perfect. So I sort of gave him this spreadsheet of and of like names, and I was ah was really sort of giving it to him as like ah a guide, like a sort of mood board, like people like her. And yeah, in the end, we got her and she's just, yeah, she's done such a great job. I ah um haven't listened to it fully yet, just because i'm it's been busy, but also I'm just sort of very close to it. So I'm sort of looking forward to having a bit of time off and then,
00:13:56
Speaker
listening to it when I'm a bit less close to it. But um I'm having so many nice messages from people who, um yeah, I've really enjoyed listening to it. So yeah, I'd encourage you to listen. It's very good. I hope. yeah that does great job Obviously very exciting. You literally got the dream casting to voice it. But at the same time, yeah, it must be bizarre kind of sitting down to listen to the audiobook of your own novel. Yeah, it is odd. um I mean, I can't, I struggle reading. Obviously I have to do readings and stuff at events and stuff and that's okay. But you know, I'm not like
Transition from TV to Writing
00:14:30
Speaker
I'm sitting there, you know, enjoying my own book too often. But yeah, the audio bit actually weirdly is something people say, a lot of authors say to me that actually it's one of the nice things about the process is that actually listening to an audio book
00:14:43
Speaker
It is something you can kind of enjoy in a way that sort of reading your own work is slightly difficult. You know, actually um having other people perform it and put their interpretation on the story is quite satisfying, quite nice because it sort of feels a bit different. And I have every now and then I've i've um gone on Spotify and listened to a couple of bits. Yeah, it's quite nice. Yeah, I guess it has that aspect of being a a and and a different interpretation. so it's kind of I guess there's an excitement in like, oh, that's how you know she's interpreted that. It's cool that it's not quite how I saw it. Yeah, and it's kind of extraordinary when you've got someone like Penelope Keith-Reed and someone that's so brilliant as an actress.
00:15:21
Speaker
It's amazing just listening to how like a single line, she can almost create a meaning to it that I wasn't necessarily you know anticipating or um had planned, but she yeah just did intonation or the way that she delivers a certain word. It can completely change the sort of meaning of for ah what the line is. so yeah and She's done an amazing job. Russell was brilliant as well, I should say, absolutely incredible. It's a good list and I hope. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible skill that ah actors and voice actors have to to like be able to translate those kinds of words to recording. um I'd love to rewind a bit and talk about and sort of how you got here into publishing your your debut. Is writing stories, writing novels, is that something you've always wanted to do? No.
00:16:10
Speaker
it's not actually and I'm really keen to talk about how it isn't because I think there's this sort of expectation sometimes that to be an author you have to have you know started writing when you were two years old and you know the number of people that say absolutely that's absolutely fine if you have but I think there's nothing wrong if you haven't as well so um for me I've always been obsessed with stories I guess um and that's sort of in the end I became obsessed with television and film, I was sort of telling stories in a different way, a very visual way. and But I've always had an interest in stories. And even as a kid, you know, was, I was a reader, you know, I'd read lots of books, but I wasn't, at no point did I ever and consider to myself as an author or even think of that as a potential career path for me. It was only when I was sort working in TV, I've been working in TV for
00:17:00
Speaker
12, 13, 14 years and anyone that works in TV will tell you that there is so much work that is just wasted and you know 95% of everything you work on just goes in the bin and is never seen and for a while that was okay because the 5% of seeing an idea you've developed and sort worked on for however many years finally make its way to screen and have you know, millions of people watching it. That is kind of a thrill that is just beyond words really. yeah um Nothing quite beats it but after a while it sort of does get you down, you know, the amount of work you're doing and and really good ideas that just for whatever reason for bad timing or for political reasons or, you know, within the companies of
00:17:47
Speaker
You just basically, I think the thing that I started to get a bit fed up with in TV was how I needed essentially, I needed 10 people to sign off on an idea before it actually happened. I needed a million pound budget um before we could even take the you know lens cap off the camera. And sort of jumping through all those hoops and hurdles after a while got a bit tedious. And I just remember saying to my friend in TV, do you know what? I think I'm going to write a book. as as if that was just the simplest thing in the world. But I think the thing that initially appealed to me about writing a novel was the fact that no one could tell me not to do it. I was constantly being told no in TV for various reasons, um having ideas turned down. and And actually, everyone would say to me that my ideas were really good. For whatever reason, it was like converting an idea, a pitch into
00:18:41
Speaker
ah commission and getting the green light was always the struggle. And so I felt like i had all these I was sitting on lots of ideas I wanted to do something with. And um yeah, that's when I started to write because I thought, do you know what? I need a pen, a paper, I need a laptop. And even if I don't get a book deal, even if I don't get an agent and all of that, I will have still have made something.
Encouragement for Aspiring Writers
00:19:02
Speaker
It would exist in this world as a physical thing. Whereas TV, it was just very... Yeah, these ideas were just floating around. They were sort of sitting in my inbox or they just never really saw the light of day.
00:19:14
Speaker
So I remember thinking even if I don't get a book deal, I will get this printed. I don't think I would have done the self-published thing, but I think I would have probably just printed myself like 10 copies of this yeah thing that I'd made because then it would be a thing that I'd made and it existed. um But yeah, everything else has kind of been a bonus really. And I've been, yeah, I'm incredibly fortunate to have, you know, support of Brilliant Agent and publishing team. Okay. That's no it's interesting. Yeah, because you're right. A lot of authors I speak to and they say, yeah, you know i've been not that they've necessarily written something, but they're like, yeah, I've been obsessed with books since I was young. I've always wanted to write something. I've always been like scribbling stuff down. It it is nice to hear someone coming into this later. and and like and i was I also was not the same.
00:20:01
Speaker
and When I was a teenager, i all I wanted to do was music and I was convinced that I would be like a rock star or whatever. It was only in my mid 20s that I sort of suddenly said, you know what, I just want to try writing a novel. So I think, yeah, it's absolutely true. I think this is it can feel a bit exclusive, can't it? The writing world sometimes. And you can feel that if if unless you've read every classic book and unless you've you know written loads of books that have been rejected and you're not really a proper writer. And actually, the great thing about writing is that it is for everyone. And if youre if you feel inspired to write a story, then
00:20:36
Speaker
great thing is the sort of entry to do it is quite, you know, the barriers quite low, you've just got to, as simple as it sounds, just just start writing. And, yeah um and obviously, there's hurdles to jump through later on. But that's the wonderful thing, I think is that it can be for everyone. Yeah, the barrier for entry is very low. It's very accessible. Yeah. And yeah, and there and there is no age limit. on itve I've had authors on the show who have published their debut novel age like 50. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of industries where you need to be young to like begin a career in something, but the beauty of ah writing and publishing is that you know anyone can do it at any age. Yeah. I mean, look at Lessons in Chemistry, um Bonnie Thomas, the biggest book of however many years. It's been huge, and that's her first novel.
Writing Process and Planning
00:21:20
Speaker
It's kind of incredible.
00:21:21
Speaker
So we had the story of how you, through growing so frustration with television, eventually decided to write a book. um You did the Faber Academy course. Had you already started writing before you did that, or was it a preemptive thing? God, it was an absolute disaster again. It was one of those things where I turned up and I thought, oh my God, what have I done? This is the worst thing. I would tried to come off the course after the first week. I didn't know my teacher just said, I'm so sorry. I'm on the wrong course. This is not for me. And she said, um she said oh, why don't worry. The people that start with a blank page often do the best. Because the thing was, I remember turning up and
00:21:58
Speaker
we would sort of ask to like, you know, speak to the person you just sat next to and like find out what their writing history is. And I remember the person next to me had written seven books. And he'd already written the book that he was hoping to write on the course and he was just going to edit it. And I'm thinking, Oh, my God, I literally I had, I had a notebook, I had a notebook with so pathetic on the front you had my new my new book or my new novel. And inside there was one line and it just said, a mystery and with puzzles infused into the prose and that was it. that's an know yeah hands on And the worst thing was, the reason I panicked on that first week was that I teach Sarah May, who's absolutely wonderful. I've got an awful lot to thank Sarah for. At the end of the class, the first session was just a little housekeeping and introduction.
00:22:48
Speaker
And they said, right, we're going to start sharing um chapters next week. So let's look at the register. And because I'm Burr, my surname's Burr, I was the first on the bloody list. And so she said, right, Samuel Burr, are you okay to share your first chapter next week? And I thought, I literally don't have got one line. I don't have anything. So that's when I tried to come off the course. But she basically just said, well, you've got till Monday. ah So I had like four days to write the first chapter. And yeah, this I think that was the best thing actually, for me, because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I can drag my feet sometimes when it comes to showing work and the great thing was I just had to deliver something. level um ah paid the money um and there was this deadline looming so I just ah that weekend wrote this opening scene which was
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, it it remains the open chapter of the book. um This isn't a spoiler because it's chapter. It's Pippa, the founder of the fellowship, lying in her open coffin with all the puzzle makers stood around her, you know paying their respects and Clayton at the top of the coffin sort of realizing that this is sort of the beginning of the end and that the fellowship was never going to be the same again. So I sort of loved the idea of starting the story with a kind of ending. Yeah. and And then we jump back in time through the past timeline and we sort of tell the story of how Pippa created this puzzle club. um She sort of gathered her friends in a room above a pub in Islington and it just grew and grew and grew until they ended up taking over of this house in Bedfordshire and living together. um And so yeah, it's a dual timeline novel and yeah, that opening chapter that I shared and got feedback on that in that second week of the course remains
00:24:25
Speaker
mostly unchanged actually. It was the easiest chapter to write. I think I just felt like that scene was the idea. That was always the idea in my head. I love the idea of being in a big grand house, a slightly dusty, crumbly house. I love the idea of this young man in the midst of this very old world and him feeling like the oldest person in the room even though he was 50 years younger than everyone else. um it was That was the thing that was brewing and it was I was thinking about for months and months and months, probably years without even realizing. So that first chapter sort of came quite easily and then then it all got really difficult. Based off that, based off what you're saying, I'm going to guess that this was not planned out.
00:25:16
Speaker
Well, i start I realized quite quickly that this was the sort of book that do that did needed planning. um the puzzles yeah The puzzles were always part of it. I mean i always wanted to sort of have crossword clues as chapter headings and to give the solutions you know ah within the text. but Yeah, it was ah it was a learning curve, really. both i was i was learning I was learning so many things. I was learning how to write, how to write and that sounds a bit silly, but like actually just the technicalities of writing a story, um how to phrase, how to write dialogue, how to punctuate, you know all of that sort of stuff. yeah sort of Nuts and bolts. Then I was of learning bigger sort of structural sort of storytelling things that were
00:26:05
Speaker
about the you know the classic three act structure and character motivation and all of that. And then the third level of sort of learning was the puzzles and sort of trying to get my head around how to create these puzzles that were going to be challenging enough and entertaining enough and varied enough within the story. so i was doing a lot and i think what i decided quite quickly was that i needed to nail the plot before the puzzles and so i had sort of placeholders for the puzzles for quite a while which was basically working out i sort of realized i needed to work out what the solutions to the puzzles were before working out the mechanics of how those solutions were found um
00:26:41
Speaker
and lock that all in before I started because there was a version of it where I started, you know, creating puzzles that then, you know, um it just sort of slowed me down and it caused a lot of confusion. So yeah, it was a lot to learn and I sort of struggled now sort of remembering how much of it was planned because you sort of you you create plans and then things go out the window. But I think for me, particularly as with my first book, I needed that reassurance that I sort of knew where I was going. I sort of described writing a novel sometimes as like getting in a car and you know drive you know really long distance. You're not going to get in a car for a 10 hour drive and not realize where you're going. So I think I knew the ending. I didn't know all the sort of um
00:27:24
Speaker
ah detours I was going to take along the way. and Sometimes those detours were kind of really crucial. And some I think it's probably actually some of my favourite scenes in the book of the stuff, the things that I hadn't necessarily planned beforehand, but just came about quite naturally through the writing process where I was really in tune with the characters and listening to what they would do and what their motivations were. Those sort of gems are kind of the unexpected and detours in the journey that I think um Yeah, ah probably
Challenges of Writing a Second Novel
00:27:51
Speaker
the most special. But yeah, I think as it's my first one, I just I needed to have something I had a spreadsheet and um but I think having the flexibility to to know that you can change and what the plan is as well is really important to clear your first book. Yeah, it lets you explore the characters in a way that I think if everything's very regimented and like laid out, not necessarily makes it better or worse, but like will make it different. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:28:19
Speaker
And you mentioned the first book. this is ah It was a two-book deal with Orion, right? Yes, yes. So I imagine you're well underway with whatever your follow-up novel is. How are you finding... Good hope, sir. ...working. ah I am. No, actually, I'm doing i' being dramatic. It's ah it's going okay. it is It's obviously terrifying because the book's obviously been out now for um over a month, six weeks, eight weeks. and And yeah, you sort of have that pressure to sort of deliver something that is going to satisfy the readers that you've
00:28:54
Speaker
um that have come to your first book and that sort of feels different enough and so yeah it's that it's that tight rope sort of that you're walking trying to just make sure um yeah you're doing everything basically i've made i've made a list of all the things that i think i'm good at all the things i've enjoyed with the first book all the things that i think people have reacted and responded well to um so i don't sort of throw the baby out of the bath water but also to work on the things that i want to spend more time on or things that I knew I struggled with the first one, sort of just be aware of that going into it the second time around. But yeah, I am actually really excited. the The wonderful thing, I was trying to explain this to someone the other day talking about the pressures of you know the difficult second novel and it there obviously is that side to it and it can be terrifying. But it's also really exciting because now
00:29:41
Speaker
I've sort of been through the process and I know how it feels to sort of walk into, you know, a W.A. Smith's or Waterstones and see your book on the shelf. It's so thrilling. And to get the chance to do that all over again, as difficult as I know it's going to be, it's kind of brilliant as well. So, um yeah, it's sort of not taking anything for granted. But, ah yeah, just being I'm just sort of being very considered about it all and being very um just trying to make conscious decisions so so that i I make the processes enjoyable. Because I think that's really the most important thing is actually making the process enjoyable. The best writing always comes about, not when I'm pulling my hair out and thinking, oh my God, this is awful. But it's when I'm sat here and really loving the process and loving the characters and fully immersed in the world and thinking that it's the best book ever. That's when you get the ah you know the best scenes. yeah um So yeah, I'm trying to sort of channel that at the minute.
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah, and and and and just like knowing how the sort of industry process that works like, and you have the kind of, you'll have the support of the editor from the start this time.
Interest in TV Adaptation
00:30:44
Speaker
And then like, there's a lot of ah structures in place now to help you even if the timeline is going to be a lot shorter than with the first novel. Exactly. exactly yeah And you do get so much support from the team that you can sort of really lean on. The team knows me much better. you know The yeah process of editing the first book, we were sort of figuring out how we like to work, who what sort of people we were. And I feel like we've you know we've we've spent a lot of time now with each other to sort of know how we operate and hopefully that will help us going into the second one. yeah
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah, definitely, for sure. One more question before we head over to the Desert Island, and that is, um obviously you have ah some experience in television. a production If an adaptation of ah The Fellowship of Puzzle Makers was made, would you want to be involved with it? Well, um but it has been optioned.
00:31:41
Speaker
I asked, I was like, can I be involved? And they were like, no. like So I answered that question. I said, well, that's great. Let's just do it anyway. ah So actually, in a funny way, at the time, I was sort of like, yeah, let's get involved. And I have, you know, if it happens, I will be involved in some aspect. But In a funny way, writing the second book, I'm sort of realizing now how much I'm enjoying spending time with different people, different characters in a different world. I mean, I've literally spent years and years and years with these characters and in that world. And I really felt like when I handed that book in, I remember there was a really satisfying moment where I delivered the final manuscript to my my editor. And I remember saying, there was not a single more thing I could physically do with this manuscript. I have done everything I possibly can.
00:32:29
Speaker
and And that was quite a satisfying moment knowing that it almost killed me, but I had put my absolute heart and soul into it. And so it is different, you know, adapting it for screen, but I have never done that before. I've always worked in non-scripted TV, so I've always been factual documentaries and reality TV. I've never worked on anything scripted before, so it's not like I sort have this wealth of experience that I could use. um So actually the the idea of handing it over to people who are brilliant at doing that and seeing like you know Penelope did, seeing how they interpret the story yeah is kind of is kind of exciting too. and So yeah, i mean I think I will be involved loosely as a consultant of some kind, but who knows, watch this space.
Desert Island Book Choice and Conclusion
00:33:15
Speaker
you will at least offer yourself to be like, look, I'm available if anyone wants to chat. I will make the tea. Yeah, I'll do, I'll literally do anything. I'll just have a walk-in roll. I'll just put my head in the back of shot and walk out again. That's all I need. Oh yeah, the classic author just in the cafe as they walk past. You could definitely do that. Amazing. That brings us to the desert island. So Sam, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? Okay, so the book that I would pick would be We All Want Impossible Things by Katherine Newman. Now, if Katherine Newman's listening, I fear she might be slightly frightened of me because I have mentioned her book clearly in every interview I've ever done. But I just can't help not because it's so bloody good. She's so talented. It's just it's just painful. ah She's she's written this book. Her actually her second book Sandwich came out I think
00:34:07
Speaker
couple weeks ago, I've just bought it. But this was her debut. It's called We All Want Impossible Things. And extensively, it's a book about dying. It's about two best friends and one of them who gets um this awful diagnosis, her terminal diagnosis. And it's about her best friends supporting her through a process and it sounds that sounds on the surface, it could be fairly bleak and um sentimental even but it is so, so well written and so well sort of tonally judged. It's sort of, I got this little notebook and I sometimes write little reviews of books I've read and I've described it as the funniest, saddest book I've ever read because it is just that. It's kind of, um I love books that make you laugh and cry. I'm always in awe of writers that are kind of able able to do that and there's a sort of version of this book that is
00:35:01
Speaker
you know, like I said, overly sentimental, and a bit icky, but the tone is so perfect, it feels so real and so raw. And it's kind of, yeah, all the more moving, I think for it. um So yeah, I think I picked that book because it's sort of, it's got it all, it's got a humour, it's got sadness, it's got beautiful writing and great characters. um And yeah, I think that and Catherine Newman, I'm sorry that I mentioned you literally on every single interview I've ever done, don't be frightened, I just think you're brilliant. Well, I'm sure she won't be upset if she learns something. I've literally done it 12 times, Jamie. I'm not lying. I've literally done it 12 times. Amazing. Great choice. Sounds like that book really is one that resonates with you. And I hope that the new one, you enjoy it just as much. I'd love to ask you some questions about your literary agents, submitting to agents, being on sub to editors, and a bit about your sort of writing schedule. But that will all be in the extended episode, exclusive to my wonderful Patreon subscribers. In the end, it's all about you. It's not about what everyone else is doing. Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. And that's a great way to close off this episode. Thank you so much, Sam, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about your work in television and publishing and the Fellowship of Puzzle Makers, which is out right now. You can go and buy it in all the usual places. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Jamie. I appreciate it.
00:36:25
Speaker
And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Sam is doing, you can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Samuel Burr, that's b-u-double-r. Or you can head over to his website, www.samuelburr.com. And remember, the Fellowship of a Puzzle Maker's audiobook is available on Spotify Premium, if you have that already. To support the podcast like follow and subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and follow along on all socials join the patreon for extended episodes ad free and a week early and check out my other podcast the chosen ones and other tropes Thanks again to sam and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode