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The Mullet Lawn Philosophy: Turf Talk with Jason Vaughn
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In this episode of Hort Culture, the team welcomes Powell County Extension Agent Jason Vaughn to dive deep into the evolving culture of American lawns—from golf courses to backyards.
Jason shares his journey from mowing lawns in Clark County to managing some of the most prestigious golf courses in the U.S. The conversation explores the “business in the front, party in the back”approach to lawn care, affectionately dubbed the "mullet lawn philosophy."
Listeners will learn about:
- The real reason raising your mower height is a game changer
- Why fall is the best season for weed control
- Common lawn myths (including the overuse of lime)
- The case for wild blackberries over cultivated ones
- How home lawn care differs from professional turf management
- And why sometimes, the lawn is worth keeping—especially for play, aesthetics, or just zoning out with a mower
From clover-friendly backyards to the newest trends in golf course design (think wild, low-input fescues), this episode blends practical advice with personal stories and humor. Whether you're a lawn purist or a prairie convert, there’s something here to help you rethink your green space.
Tips and Recommendations for Maintaining Home Lawns
Turf Care Calendar for Cool-Season Lawns in Kentucky
Turfgrass Science University of Kentucky
Questions/Comments/Feedback/Suggestions for Topics: hortculturepodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction: Meet the Hosts
00:00:19
Brett
Hello, hello. Welcome.
00:00:20
Plant People
I look good people.
00:00:22
Brett
Welcome to another episode of Hort Culture. And I'm here.
00:00:25
Plant People
Brett comes in smooth, whereas Alexis comes in like a hurricane, like glass breaking the Kool-Aid man into a wrecking ball.
00:00:30
Jason Vaughn
Thank you.
00:00:30
Brett
Yeah. Wrecking Ball.
00:00:33
Plant People
Thank you, Brett.
00:00:34
Brett
Yeah.
00:00:34
Plant People
Brett comes in super smooth, like Delilah at night or something.
00:00:34
Brett
Hannah Montana.
00:00:37
Plant People
mean, like super smooth.
00:00:37
Brett
Yeah.
00:00:39
Plant People
Yeah. Different vibe.
00:00:40
Brett
Delilah. Oh, man. Love someone tonight.
00:00:41
Plant People
I know that's taking it back, isn't it?
00:00:42
Brett
Yeah.
00:00:44
Plant People
Yeah. and I'm sure and I'm dating myself a little bit, so I have to be careful. I have to be careful.
00:00:49
Brett
Delilah was one of those like classic for me, at least classic examples of you, you hear the voice and you just create a persona in your head and then you see the person there.
00:00:57
Plant People
Yes.
00:00:59
Brett
For her me, at least it was nothing like what I was expecting.
00:01:01
Plant People
and I'm afraid I never want to see a picture because that personality is locked in. In my head, when I was driving back and forth getting my master's degree, listened to a lot of that.
00:01:06
Brett
Yeah, well, keep it that way.
Nostalgia of Radio Host Delilah
00:01:11
Plant People
You know, if I was wide awake and well caffeinated, I would listen to that program.
00:01:11
Brett
Mm hmm.
00:01:15
Plant People
But if I was sleepy, I could not because her voice was kind of soothing and kind of smooth and I couldn't do it. But if I was awake, I would. So, yeah.
00:01:24
Brett
Jason, do you remember, you remember Delilah? Do you ever,
00:01:26
Jason Vaughn
um I'm going to date myself as well. And I was just thinking, ah you're a co-host, Jessica. um What are the chances they have no idea who Delilah is?
00:01:37
Jason Vaughn
They never listened to minor.
00:01:38
Brett
I, I think they might know because, because my brother is ah couple years younger than Alexis and Jessica.
00:01:38
Plant People
Oh, would hurt me.
00:01:44
Brett
And I think he would know, but I think it's the, you know, it's the tail end, uh,
00:01:46
Jason Vaughn
Okay.
00:01:49
Jason Vaughn
Yeah. I mean, there's some stuff I talk about these days that some of the younger folks I work with are just like, I have, No idea what what that Yep.
00:01:58
Plant People
There is no worse feeling than like making a reference that you're sure that it's going to get the whole room going and then just crickets. They have no idea what you're talking about. and you're like, oh, oh my gosh.
00:02:07
Jason Vaughn
yeah
00:02:09
Plant People
Yeah. No worse feeling. It's not good. It's not good.
00:02:13
Brett
Well, we we broke the ice a little bit with Delilah, but I'll also break the ice further, you know, just shatter right through the rest of the ice with with a little question
Summer Gardening Favorites
00:02:21
Brett
for you all. And it is, you know, this time of year, it's steamy.
00:02:26
Brett
It's can be kind of unpleasant and some people really like it, but a lot of people don't. But this time of year, what are your your favorite and least favorite gardening tasks, specifically this time of year?
00:02:37
Plant People
and
00:02:40
Plant People
Oh, man, I would. Gosh. Well, picking off ah tomatoes, my very first. I mean, tomatoes seem like they're delayed ripening this year. One of my least favorite gardening tasks is picking off tomatoes, picking that beautiful tomato, turning it over and seeing blossom end rot.
00:02:57
Plant People
Oh, man, that gets me. I mean, i'm I'm so excited. I've been saving this tomato and my first ones are starting to get ripe this year. Like i said, I'm way behind this year. And the first ones, I'm turning them over. Lots of blossom end rot. We've had all this rain and then kind of dries up a little bit and then it comes back on. But that that's my least favorite thing is probably blossom end rot on tomatoes.
00:03:18
Brett
Well, that's not really a chore.
00:03:18
Plant People
As far as I have to pick those off.
00:03:20
Brett
That's like a disappointment.
00:03:22
Plant People
ah Yeah. that that Well, that's a general garden ah complaint maybe, but maybe the chore part of that is picking them off and throwing them in the compost bin.
00:03:26
Brett
Okay. Okay.
00:03:30
Brett
Yeah, I see.
00:03:30
Plant People
um But yeah, I don't like that. But yes, Brett, it's a complaint that I'm wrapping up in a chore bow.
00:03:37
Brett
Look, you need to you need to express yourself however you need to.
00:03:37
Plant People
So ah i just, I just had that on my heart and I had to, I had to fit it in there somehow.
00:03:40
Brett
And I'm not here. I'm not going to judge you.
00:03:44
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:44
Plant People
I'm pounding that circle into that square hole.
00:03:48
Jason Vaughn
Mine is is very easy. I um have
Blackberry Picking Adventures
00:03:52
Jason Vaughn
had a busy past month. We were at our state conference and then we were at our national conference for ag agents. And then we went on vacation for a week.
00:04:02
Jason Vaughn
So I finally got back yesterday and was pulling weeds all day long.
00:04:07
Brett
Mm.
00:04:08
Jason Vaughn
And I was talking to Ray a little bit as well. ah uh mowing the grass right now is you you should be getting to the time of the year where you could skip a week mowing the grass uh but you you really can't go seven days right now with that without mowing the grass so that is my least favorite is pulling weeds uh and my favorite is uh pulling blackberries right off the right off the vine and eating them while they're warm and if they got a a Japanese beetle on them, just flick that off and and go right to town on them. my yeah
00:04:43
Jason Vaughn
Me and my little guy love pulling the yeah blackberries right off the vine, so that's my favorite this time of year.
00:04:48
Brett
Man. Yeah, that's a, that's a very good one. Very evocative of summer that even the mention of the warm plus the Japanese beetle. It's very ah yeah authentic Kentucky, July, late
00:04:58
Plant People
Oh, yeah. and just ah They
Wild vs. Cultivated Blackberries
00:05:01
Plant People
go with each other.
00:05:01
Brett
July.
00:05:01
Brett
Yeah.
00:05:01
Plant People
It's it's also, I call it dad pullover ditch season because I'm one of those. I remember a state meeting a couple years ago, and I was with a group of agents where I just basically locked the vehicle up and land between the lakes.
00:05:13
Plant People
Halfway down, we were taking a little like side tour. And they were like, what are you doing? And I put it in reverse right to middle the middle road, went back and did this little pull off because there was blackberries beside the road. And I break for blackberries. I need that bumper sticker. And I love when you see a big patch of those along the side of the road. And they're just I'm like, I'm stopping for that. I am 100 percent of the time if there's a safe pull off or even semi safe pull off, I am stopping for those blackberries along the side of the road.
00:05:41
Plant People
But the people learned a lesson that day were with me. I do break for blackberries, and I absolutely will every single time.
00:05:45
Jason Vaughn
hi
00:05:48
Plant People
And they were a little freaked out.
00:05:49
Brett
Yeah, I'm imagining you like lock up the brakes, swerved it like, you know, kind of a...
00:05:53
Plant People
Yeah, it was almost that dramatic. I mean, they may have screamed a little and they were like, oh my gosh, what? You know, what do we, what do we hit? I'm like, we didn't hit anything besides the brakes. We're backing this thing up.
00:06:02
Brett
Yeah.
00:06:03
Plant People
It some big SUV type thing that was a rental. And I just backed it up and went a little bit off-roading up this little log thing in the Land Between the Lakes area yet because that's where the Blackberries were.
00:06:06
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:06:13
Plant People
And, you know, they complained at first, but then they got out. They saw the Blackberries and all was right with the world. No complaints after that. So I'm right there with you, Jason. It's a good time of year.
00:06:22
Jason Vaughn
You know, a couple of folks up here in Powell County tell me, uh, um, that are very, uh, uh, not interested in your varieties of blackberries at all.
00:06:34
Jason Vaughn
Only wild blackberries.
00:06:35
Plant People
Yes.
00:06:35
Jason Vaughn
I'm not planting any.
00:06:36
Plant People
Yes.
00:06:36
Jason Vaughn
Uh, I think what I have is a called Primark, the thornless. Uh, they're all like, uh, if you ain't digging into the thorns, then you're not a real blackberry person.
00:06:43
Plant People
They don't want to know about those.
00:06:47
Jason Vaughn
So, uh, um, exactly.
00:06:47
Plant People
Yeah. Well, I've have, yeah, that's right.
00:06:47
Brett
it's the it's the It's the blood that bring that brings out the sweetness, you know?
00:06:51
Plant People
Yes. The extra, that that extra zing to it.
00:06:54
Jason Vaughn
yeah
00:06:55
Plant People
I've had a lot of people tell me that they don't want to hear anything about the cultivated varieties. They want either wild or nothing. So, yep.
00:07:02
Jason Vaughn
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:07:03
Brett
gets giving a main main blueberry kind of energy too.
00:07:03
Plant People
Yep.
00:07:06
Plant People
Yes.
00:07:06
Brett
little teeny tiny.
00:07:07
Plant People
Well, I agree on the blueberries as well, Brett. Absolutely. There's certain types of blueberries I'll get. I find tasteless and there's other types that I'm like, that's my blueberry. So blackberries are the same way.
00:07:16
Brett
Well, fun fact, ah tim Tim Woods, who works with with our group, a longtime extension professor in economics,
Jason Vaughn’s Horticultural Journey
00:07:27
Brett
he got ah a large part of his startup in blueberry farms in the northeastern part of the United States. He's originally from Vermont. ah his His family moved to a Indiana later on. but But yeah, and then he, I believe, i could be wrong about this, but I believe his first extension job was working as an extension.
00:07:49
Brett
i guess we would call it associate with blueberry growers up in Maine, I think. Um, so he'll have to come on and regale us about stories of stories of blueberries past, but, uh,
00:07:59
Plant People
Yeah.
00:08:02
Brett
Well, Jason, you you mentioned ah task. I think just real quick, my answers would be my favorite thing is probably the watering my bonsai this time of year because it's a methodical.
00:08:13
Brett
I don't always love it, but it's one of my favorite ones. But one of my least favorite as well would be cutting cutting the grass.
00:08:16
Plant People
favorite things.
00:08:21
Brett
um And I think that's part of the reason why we have moved away from having very much grass left at all in our yard is because Well, multiple reasons that we'll talk about later and here later here later here in this in this episode, but one of them was I just don't like cutting it.
00:08:38
Brett
um So, Ray, what did you have in mind for us to to kind of talk about today? Do you have any kicking off questions for us to get us started? But um yeah, and get
00:08:47
Plant People
First of all, I guess, yeah, Jason Vaughn's with us today. He's a Kent Extension agent for Agriculture and Natural Resources there in power campmp Powell County. I need to say it correctly. Is that correct, Jason?
00:08:58
Plant People
That's where you're at.
00:08:59
Jason Vaughn
That is correct.
00:08:59
Plant People
But, ah and I,
00:09:00
Jason Vaughn
I'm in Powell County.
00:09:01
Plant People
And I know that you have a very strong background in both commercial and home turf. So we figured that would be a good point of topic today, especially this year being what it is. um This year being a little unusual. Brett just mentioned that he doesn't like to mow grass.
00:09:19
Plant People
And anyone that doesn't like to mow grass, and Jason alluded to it earlier, this is not the year for you. you know This is the time of year I'd get excited where I only have to mow every 14 days. I look forward to that. i have a south-facing back lawn.
00:09:33
Plant People
I can get by with two, sometimes maybe three weeks until the weeds start. I don't want the weeds to head out. But this year, Jason, I'm mowing every dang week. It's amazing what a different season we have. But yeah, I thought we would talk about some of the topics kind of related you know, to lawns and the the ins and outs and a little bit of schedule stuff, but also the why behind lawns.
00:09:55
Brett
Yeah. Well, before we, before we jump into that, would you mind Jason to just give us the the thumbnail of your career in plants and
Golf Course Maintenance Challenges
00:10:02
Brett
in horticulture? I know you and Ray know each other well, know well know each other well, we've known each other for a bit, but ah you know, in case our audience is curious, you know, where's this guy coming from in in all of this?
00:10:12
Brett
That'd be great.
00:10:13
Jason Vaughn
Yeah. Uh, well I grew up in Clark County, uh, and I guess I was unlike Brett, uh, at a really young age. I remember, uh, liking mowing the lawn. It was just, uh, um, there was something that's kind of Zen about it. You can kind of zone out and just back and forth. And I, and I always liked that.
00:10:30
Jason Vaughn
Uh, uh, was a big sports guy, played, uh, um, uh, basketball, baseball, football, loved all the sports, uh, growing up. Um, and then the the plant end of it, uh,
00:10:43
Jason Vaughn
My grandfather ran the Winchester florist in Greenhouse in Winchester for, I don't know, 70 years or something. um So was always in the greenhouse. He grew mums, ferns, kind of the classic stuff growing up, helping out with that. And then my other grandfather was a i grew tobacco, had a big garden, had thorned blackberries in his backyard. So kind of the plant stuff kind of came from there.
00:11:13
Jason Vaughn
um Went to UK, had no idea what I wanted to do with, to study. And I remember Dr. Williams, there was like ah the the first day of, even before school started, there was like some kind of career thing.
00:11:28
Jason Vaughn
So Dr. David Williams, who used to be the turf guy at UK, uh had a little booth set up and was kind of showing pictures of baseball fields golf courses that kind of thing and i thought wow that's uh that's interesting uh you know to combine my love of sports uh and and it's plants as well and it's lawn mowers and uh all that kind of thing and it's funny how just that one day that one thing where dr williams was there was like it kind of set my path a little bit. So went to UK, majored in plant science. Back then you could get a, yeah you could do a yeah a plant science major with an emphasis. And so I did an emphasis on turf management.
00:12:14
Jason Vaughn
I got an internship on a horse ah farm
Horticulture Lessons and Tips
00:12:17
Jason Vaughn
there in Lexington, Ball Homes. It's called Donomire Horse Farm. ah So worked there for three, four, five years mowing.
00:12:26
Jason Vaughn
We had a bunch of roses. We had grapes. We had a greenhouse. It was really It introduced me to a whole lot of different things horticulture wise, not just turf grass.
00:12:38
Jason Vaughn
um And then somewhere along that line, somebody put a golf club club in my hand and it was was kind over from there. Started playing golf that summer.
00:12:49
Jason Vaughn
um And then, you know, I wanted to be on a golf course. So I got an internship and really was blessed to get an internship at a really a famous historical golf club in Philadelphia and called Marion Country Club.
00:13:06
Jason Vaughn
ah And then spent about 11, 12 hours.
00:13:13
Jason Vaughn
A long time, 12 years, 13 years, kind of bounced around the country, lived in Oklahoma for a little while, working at Southern Hills a Country Club, lived in the Keys for a little while, working on a and a golf course.
00:13:15
Plant People
Bye.
00:13:27
Jason Vaughn
um And so, yeah, that you know, it was kind of my my life. It's it it that profession tends to be kind of consuming. You know, it's all day, every day. What is going on on that golf course?
00:13:44
Jason Vaughn
um So, yeah, I loved it for many, many years. um Then kind of um was getting married. I knew I wanted to have a kid. Sometimes that lifestyle ah with the golf course and the family life doesn't doest mesh that well. So um that's how I kind of ended up here. and I always thought I might like to be a teacher um and extension kind of.
00:14:09
Jason Vaughn
filled all those roles of plants and turf and teaching and and a little bit better, a more conducive lifestyle of family life. So yes, how I ended up here. is that is that the thumbnail?
00:14:22
Brett
Yeah, that's great.
00:14:22
Plant People
Oh, man.
Lawn Care: Professional vs. Home
00:14:23
Brett
that That's Marion that hosted the U.S. Open back in like the Wow. Okay.
00:14:29
Jason Vaughn
13. Yeah. I was there in 2005 when we hosted the, uh, um, us amateur. So that's a, if you're, if you're not a, uh, if you're not a professional golfer, like most of us are that us amateur is a, a very big deal.
00:14:35
Brett
wow
00:14:43
Jason Vaughn
So, and then from there, as far as tournament golf goes, I, uh, left Marion and went to Southern Hills and, uh, Tulsa, um, and, uh, uh, had the PGA championship there that year.
00:14:51
Brett
okay
00:14:56
Jason Vaughn
So Tiger Woods won.
00:14:56
Brett
Wow.
00:14:58
Jason Vaughn
So,
00:14:58
Brett
Yeah, man.
00:14:58
Plant People
Yeah.
00:14:58
Jason Vaughn
Right. like
00:14:59
Plant People
So some prominent locations, not only prominent locations, but you've literally covered a lot of ground in different areas of the country. Did you did you also say the Keys?
00:15:10
Plant People
You were down there?
00:15:10
Jason Vaughn
The keys.
00:15:11
Plant People
Wow.
00:15:11
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:15:11
Plant People
Yeah.
00:15:12
Jason Vaughn
So I went down there for, um, the first year i went to, Philadelphia, the, the superintendent said, you know, you're new on the golf course.
00:15:12
Plant People
um
00:15:21
Jason Vaughn
We'd like to keep you here, um, for another season, but you need more experience watching the grass grows. So, I have a friend that lives down in the keys. Uh, would you like to go down there and work for him? And I said, yeah, absolutely. i was young and not married. And, uh,
00:15:36
Jason Vaughn
I could fit everything i owned in a couple of backpacks and off I went. So, yeah, I was very blessed to get to bounce around so lots of different places, historical golf clubs and met a lot of different people. um Yeah, i was I was very blessed.
00:15:54
Brett
That's, that's awesome. Yeah. I had no idea about that. um Working in, in the golf side of things. Cause I mean, if, in case people don't, you know, aren't familiar this, I mean, this is like the equivalent in the golf sporting world of working at like a major botanical garden, you know, that this is like you're, and they're known for taking care of this stuff and for being at the, at the top of that game.
00:16:15
Brett
What would you say? would you say are things that maybe people don't understand about like the, the role of, of like groundskeeping or, or taking care of a golf course that you either learned through that or that you kind of even still see.
00:16:31
Brett
I'm curious about that. Cause I don't even know if I understand what all what all goes into that.
00:16:35
Plant People
know
00:16:38
Jason Vaughn
So, I mean, and one and one of the major ones that that that maybe folks don't understand is that, ah you know, 6 a.m., it's a very early start time. If you're somebody that's interested in that profession, if you're not good at waking up early, you might want to think about a different different job. ah um You know, you've got to get out there. You've got to get out in front of the golfers, and the golfers are usually ready to go at 6 a.m.
00:17:06
Jason Vaughn
7.30, 8 o'clock, they're they're ready to tee off. So it's ah very early in the morning. um And then Saturdays and Sundays are your your big days on the golf course that that you need to that you're going to have to be out there. So it's kind of a seven-day-a-week job.
00:17:26
Jason Vaughn
um One
Mowing Height and Lawn Health
00:17:28
Jason Vaughn
of the big things from plant growing perspective ah that that maybe I didn't understand when I got into it um ah is that that it is very important that you are very good at getting water onto the golf course, whether that be through rain that you know irrigation is a huge deal.
00:17:48
Jason Vaughn
But way more important than that is getting water off of the golf course.
00:17:54
Brett
a
00:17:54
Jason Vaughn
So drainage, you know, like it's easy to.
00:17:55
Plant People
Yeah.
00:17:58
Jason Vaughn
And that drainage thing is a little bit more, you know, you're you're kind of constricted with a piece of land you got.
00:18:04
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:18:06
Jason Vaughn
ah But anything that you can do on that golf course to get better at getting the water off of it. ah is is very, very important to having a good good golf course.
00:18:19
Plant People
I guess people just come out there and expect the course to be in great shape after a torrential downpour, don't they?
00:18:24
Jason Vaughn
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:24
Plant People
i mean, in some cases, yeah.
00:18:24
Jason Vaughn
Why can't I take my golf cart out today, you know? So, ah yeah, that that is, ah and I'm sure there is a lot of superintendents, course managers that right now i have, they've had some tough years.
00:18:27
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:18:28
Plant People
Yeah.
00:18:39
Jason Vaughn
I mean, you know, where where we have been getting so much rain this year, you know, the a a public golf course relies on day in and day out, getting golfers out there.
00:18:43
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:18:50
Jason Vaughn
And those days that you can't get golfers out there, that's money that you're not not making so um yeah that that that's probably the big challenge that those guys are facing right now you know i uh worked for a farmer uh a while back um and he told me one time and it probably applies to all plant uh plants that you're growing that um too dry will worry you to death but too wet will starve you to death so when i When I have the water hose, wherever I'm at, I try to keep that in mind that like it's all right to bump up against too dry now and then, but you keep something wet enough, long enough, disease, rot, all those things are gonna are going to play a part. And on the golf course, it absolutely does.
00:19:36
Brett
Wow. That's so would you say that that's one example you kind of almost preempted what my next question was going to be, but Would you say that there are other other lessons from from either that time or your time ah maybe on, you know, kind of in the general horticultural, ah you mentioned the farm, the ball home farm um that you kind of have carried forward, like key lessons or major things that you learned? I mean, i'm sure there's a lot of things, but um any any things that come to mind besides if you're too too dry will worry you or then too wet will starve you? Is that what he said?
00:20:13
Jason Vaughn
Too dry will worry you to death. yeah You're looking out there, oh my gosh, we need rain, we need rain, we need rain.
00:20:15
Brett
Oh, that's right. Okay.
00:20:19
Jason Vaughn
ah Too wet will starve you to death, meaning like you get too wet, you're not going to have any tomatoes, you're not to have any cucumbers, you're not going have any corn.
00:20:21
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:20:26
Jason Vaughn
um So yeah, no, that that's a big one. um
00:20:35
Jason Vaughn
A big one that then that I can't really remember this specific lesson um that that i still that I take with me ah to this day is um I don't know if it's like not everything is black and white. I guess everything doesn't have to be the same.
00:20:56
Jason Vaughn
And so what I mean by that, I'm just thinking of my lawn right now.
00:20:56
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:21:00
Jason Vaughn
My front lawn, ah I try to keep the nice the the the nice ah American lawn. I spray some weeds once a year.
00:21:11
Jason Vaughn
might put some fertilizer down every two or three years. But that back lawn... I want to kind of be a little bit more ecologically friendly, maybe the word would be. So I've got some clover back there. There's some Creeping Charlie. There's some wild violets.
00:21:31
Jason Vaughn
um I think those are good for pollinators. They're good for different kinds of butterflies. Use them as host plants. And so i guess that's one big lesson for me is not, you know, just because, ah you know, I want the nice lawn.
00:21:47
Jason Vaughn
I can have both. I can have my cake and eat it, too. i can I can keep that nice lawn up front that, you know. probably raises my property value a little bit, um you know makes the neighbors in the in the neighborhood happy.
00:22:01
Jason Vaughn
But in the back, I'm kind of promoting some um things that help out other species. So that's a big one. you know we would run into sections just because you did something to one grain doesn't mean you'd have to do it to six grain. Everything's specific. So that's ah that's another big one I've taken with me.
00:22:22
Jason Vaughn
um The first superintendent I worked with said, if you come out on this golf course, you better have a pocket knife. I got a pocket knife. It's just that if you're going to be in this trade working with plants, you need a pocket knife.
Cultural Significance of Lawns
00:22:36
Jason Vaughn
You might have to open a bag of fertilizer.
00:22:38
Jason Vaughn
You might have to cut a limb off to take it as an extension. You might have to cut a piece of a limb to take back to the office, carry a pocket knife. So it's ah a pretty simple one that I've always, ah that I took with me.
00:22:51
Brett
Now, Ray, you you also ascribed to the mullet philosophy of lawn care. Is that correct?
00:22:58
Plant People
Sure. I'm in a neighborhood that, I mean, there's certain standards, you know, that the neighborhood goes by. And I have a very, very small front lawn, lot like what Jason was saying, is that the front lawn, I will do some basic weed treat, some basic maintenance. I certainly don't go all out, um but I try to have a nice green space on the very small front lawn, but I have a much, much larger Back lawn that we have flower gardens and vegetable gardens and containers. And i have lots of creeping Charlie, which is everywhere this year.
00:23:30
Plant People
i have dandelions and all the weeds in the back. But the mostly what I've been trying to introduce a lot of white clover. I love that stuff. In a typical year in Kentucky in July and August, when everything is looking dead, it seems like white clover adds some green back there. So I've been trying to encourage that.
00:23:48
Plant People
The back is just kind of ah free for all that I want it to be kind of a diverse green space. But in the front, I try to maintain a typical somewhat weed free lawn. But, you know, you were talking about all of these premier golf courses you've worked on, Jason.
00:24:04
Plant People
The standards and the functions of those things could not be farther. apart from like the, some of the the standards for a home lawn. So it sounds like it's two radically different, ah different situations. I mean, did, has anybody ever approached you and said, Jason, I bet your lawn at home. I mean, you take care of these amazing golf courses. I bet your home lawn at home is just beautiful and uniform.
00:24:29
Plant People
You ever get that some.
00:24:30
Jason Vaughn
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:24:32
Plant People
Yeah.
00:24:33
Jason Vaughn
In fact, I think my wife may even be a little disappointed. I think when she married me, probably thought like she's going to have Augusta National in the front yard and it's but it it just hasn't worked out that way.
00:24:36
Plant People
oh Oh no. Oh no.
00:24:42
Brett
laughter
00:24:42
Plant People
Yeah.
00:24:45
Jason Vaughn
So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everybody in the family seems to want to call me yeah ah with, ah um you know, some ah what what do I do about this or what do I do about that?
00:24:59
Jason Vaughn
I actually got a very funny story about that. my My papaw was, ah like I said, he was a yeah um ah grew tobacco and various other farming growing up. And um he knew I was going to the University of Kentucky, knew I was in college. Yeah, very proud of me. I know.
00:25:17
Jason Vaughn
so called me one day and said, his lawn's looking terrible. Like, uh, and you're going to turf school, come over here and take a look at it and see what I could, you know, tell me what I need to do. Okay. Drove over there.
00:25:28
Jason Vaughn
ah you know, and he said, you know, he grew up at that time. His lawn was, maybe an inch tall, maybe more like about three quarters of an inch.
00:25:39
Jason Vaughn
And I said, Papaw, it's very simple. I mean, just raise that mowing height up a little bit and your grass is going to do better. And he just looked at me and said,
00:25:52
Jason Vaughn
no, no, we're not not going to raise the mowing height, Denny.
00:25:54
Plant People
the
00:25:57
Jason Vaughn
He thought, like, you know, he came from that generation where, like, if it wasn't scalped down, it you you're not taking care of your grass.
00:26:03
Plant People
you have to mow more often if it's healthy you've got to mow more often if you if you traumatize the grass if you traumatize it it takes longer to recover so yeah catch 22 yeah yeah no
00:26:04
Jason Vaughn
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:13
Jason Vaughn
It's tougher, tougher grass. Yeah, so.
00:26:15
Brett
I also also just love the family. like youll know about this thing, and then you tell them what you what you've learned in your schooling, and they're just like, m no, no, we're good.
00:26:23
Plant People
I'm not going to do that
00:26:24
Jason Vaughn
wow you
00:26:24
Brett
i I can relate to that.
00:26:26
Jason Vaughn
You haven't, and you haven't learned yet. i often laugh with a lot of guys in Powell County, especially the older
Debating Traditional Lawns
00:26:33
Jason Vaughn
ones. um Lime back in the day, lime was the cure for everything plant related.
00:26:40
Jason Vaughn
If it's got some root rot, put some lime on there. If it's ah whatever it is, you put some lime on there, you'll be in business.
00:26:43
Plant People
Thank you.
00:26:48
Jason Vaughn
So I often laugh with guys that that's another one that, um, uh, you know, they thought was just the cure all of everything, I guess. I don't know I don't know. But yeah, no, I mean, we were talking about home lawns and that is just the easiest one right off the bat. If you're looking to improve your home lawn, if you are not growing our bluegrasses and our fescues at at least three inches,
00:27:16
Jason Vaughn
Bump that mower up and you will see ah an immediate and improvement in in anything you're doing grass-wise.
00:27:24
Brett
can you explain Can you explain to me why that is?
00:27:24
Jason Vaughn
it and
00:27:26
Brett
as someone you know if i'm I just sort of set, well, A, some people don't even may not even realize that they can adjust their mower height. It could be that they they got it at whatever height it was at, and it turns out, yes, there are ways to adjust that.
00:27:39
Brett
But what's what's the reasoning there for grandpa's three-quarter inch lawn being a problem versus ah a higher mowing height?
00:27:46
Jason Vaughn
So it's a couple fold. Just off the top, I mean, you know, the the the lower you cut that grass, ah the less leaf area you have.
00:27:57
Jason Vaughn
And so just like a maple tree or an oak tree, those leaves are where it's taken up sunshine. It's using that to make food for itself. So the the smaller you're cutting that, especially when you're cutting that and your grass is brown out there, that means you got no chlorophyll out there.
00:28:11
Brett
Thank you.
00:28:16
Jason Vaughn
It means it's not able to take up but ah take up sunshine. It's not able to make food for itself. ah So that's just off the top. I mean, that that's the biggest one, really. yeah Most of our grasses that we grow are not really adapted too well to be cut that low. Now, if you want it that low, there's...
00:28:35
Jason Vaughn
bermuda grass there's bent grass i mean there's grasses that'll handle that low but uh for the for majority 99.9 of home lawns cutting that up at three inches uh or more i cut mine up as high as my mower will go
00:28:52
Plant People
Yeah.
00:28:52
Jason Vaughn
um And then the second big one is as you raise that mower height, your grass gets thicker. And then so sunshine is not able to get down to that soil.
00:29:06
Jason Vaughn
And so um you're you're holding moisture into the ground a whole lot better. ah You're keeping weed seeds from germinating. And so it's kind of two to three fold. I mean, just ah so, yeah, like I said, I mean,
00:29:21
Jason Vaughn
One of the easiest things off the top to improve your lawn is just to raise that mulling height up. It's a very simple one.
00:29:29
Plant People
I think a lot of times you mentioned you were in the South Carolinas earlier with your family, maybe on a vacation. But I think a lot of times people get a little confused when they
Trends in Golf Course Aesthetics
00:29:38
Plant People
go on vacation. They see these southern lawns mowed at a certain height, which is typically way lower than what we mow our our lawns, where they may have warm season grasses, completely different animal, isn't it?
00:29:52
Plant People
uh than what we have in kentucky and i think that leads to some of that confusion of mowing hath is uh you know they'll see and they'll see some of these lawns that are aggressive they fill in gaps or warm season grasses they're able to fill in bare spots rapidly and they're mowed very close and i've had people say well this grass down there they mow it close and it does awesome and has these type of characteristics i'm like well it you can't really compare those two can you
00:30:17
Jason Vaughn
No, no, you're you're exactly right. I mean, those Bermuda grasses are kind of, and they they've been bred to ah to handle that low mowing height. And like you said, they spread. um Whereas ours, you know, when when you go out there and you cut that grass and you're you're seeing brown and you're seeing a whole lot of clippings go off of it, you're doing a lot of harm to that. You know, I think there's also just that thinking that ah the shorter I cut that grass, the less...
00:30:46
Jason Vaughn
the longer I'm going to be able to go between before I cut it again.
00:30:48
Plant People
Yeah.
00:30:50
Jason Vaughn
and that's sort of just a not the right way to think about that. I mean, you know, you add...
00:30:55
Plant People
It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned it. If you let sunlight in there, my goodness, if you keep doing that for a period of time, I've had people accuse seed companies. They'll seed a tall fescue or whatever, and they'll mow too close.
00:31:08
Plant People
And they will accuse like seed companies of like putting in a bunch of crabgrass seed. I'm like, no, probably what's happening is that sunlight... I mean, crabgrass is the seed... Most of us are going to have a healthy seed bank of crabgrass.
00:31:20
Plant People
And once that sunlight gets to the soil, you will have... weeds like crabgrass that is just going to come up. It's just there. But that's an amazing point that you made about mowing hath and providing that shade for the actual soil.
00:31:37
Plant People
Because soon as that soil sees sunlight, it's going to grow something there. It's going to and probably something that you don't want as a homeowner if you're trying to maintain a certain type of lawn. Yeah, it's a great point.
00:31:49
Jason Vaughn
You know, when we were out in Montana, I found it just interesting, especially i was also in New Mexico, I don't know, three, four five years ago. um And those areas like here in Kentucky, and Ray, you're from Eastern Kentucky, so you could take a whatever, 30 square foot area and you could spray Roundup and you could set it on fire and you could pour diesel gas on it and you can do whatever you wanted to that area.
00:32:18
Jason Vaughn
And within three weeks, Here comes a crabgrass. Here comes some dandelions. Here comes some weeds.
00:32:24
Plant People
Just the weeds.
00:32:25
Jason Vaughn
um And then, yeah, and you come back 10 years later and it's back to what it was.
00:32:26
Plant People
Yeah.
00:32:29
Jason Vaughn
Whereas some of those places out West, it's just like, especially when I went on a hike in New Mexico, was like nothing was growing. It's just like little scrub oaks here. And i was like, that's just amazing that it's so...
00:32:39
Plant People
Yeah. Very sparse.
00:32:42
Jason Vaughn
Yeah, sparse. It's so different from Kentucky, but I don't know how we got talking about it or how I got talking about that. But yes, you start letting that soil get some sunlight in it.
00:32:50
Brett
Well, it's bringing...
00:32:52
Plant People
Our seed bank is impressive and the seeds last a long, long, long time, many years.
00:32:54
Jason Vaughn
Yes, it is. Yes.
00:32:58
Brett
it's It's bringing to mind to me something that we've talked about previously. And so in ah in a place that doesn't get much rainfall, you'll still have some people who who want to aspire to the and American lawn and they'll pump in so much water that blow your mind to have a gra you know a have grass out front. and We talked about.
00:33:16
Brett
zero scapes, these concepts that people have been moving toward and in certain, you know, water stressed areas. And we talked a little bit about the clover lawns. We talked about ah but ah my house. We've converted a lot of our space to landscape and different landscaped plants and and stuff like that.
Practical Lawn Care Advice
00:33:33
Brett
But this is i want to give you all a chance here to to so to speak in, if not in defense of lawns, perhaps in defense of a more nuanced view of lawns, because the reality is among the local food, horticultural people there, I think there's sometimes a bias against the the lawn, the American lawn.
00:33:52
Brett
um And I think that there are valid critiques there. I think there's other ones that come from maybe a place of just different values or different priorities. So for you all, and and earlier, by the way, I mentioned the mullet the mullet philosophy that was business in the front, party in the back ah approach to lawn care.
00:34:08
Plant People
Yeah.
00:34:09
Jason Vaughn
I'm to steal that, by the way. That's fantastic. i mean, we should we should trademark that and try to sell that sort of a...
00:34:11
Brett
think We have to give that that one to Ray because I think... Exactly.
00:34:15
Plant People
It's a Joe dirt philosophy. Yeah.
00:34:16
Jason Vaughn
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:17
Brett
Exactly.
00:34:17
Plant People
Yeah.
00:34:18
Jason Vaughn
That's terrific.
00:34:18
Plant People
I'm sorry. Joe Dierta for those of you that get the reference.
00:34:20
Jason Vaughn
yeah
00:34:21
Plant People
Yeah.
00:34:22
Brett
But as so as you as you think about the business in the front, you know you're thinking about, yeah you mentioned already, Jason, a little bit that there there is a cultural norm and value placed on having that front lawn in terms of, especially in certain neighborhoods for the the resale value or the curb appeal of the place.
00:34:40
Brett
What are the other reasons? And I mean, and these these can be from personal to more pragmatic to economic, whatever. I mean, I'm curious, what's the reason for the the the business in the front, ah you know, more man manicured intended lawn for you all?
00:34:56
Jason Vaughn
I mean, I mean, for me, there a couple of those reasons that you just said, i mean, you know, I am somebody um that that I think about my home value. and And I also want to be, I guess I kind of live in a neighborhood where I'm.
00:35:14
Jason Vaughn
It's mainly older, older people in my neighborhood. I do want to keep, be a good neighbor. I want to be, uh, um, uh, still a little bit old school. I want to maintain that nice, uh, healthy lawn kind of, I don't know, American dream kind of thing.
00:35:30
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:35:32
Jason Vaughn
um Yeah. You know, also, I've got a six-year-old. He likes to play in the yard.
00:35:40
Plant People
Yeah.
00:35:42
Jason Vaughn
He likes to ride his bike. He likes to ah do some of those things. I will also say that in many ways, more landscape beds can be
00:35:59
Jason Vaughn
in many ways more work. I mean, you know, we're we're dealing with a mulch.
00:36:02
Brett
Yes. Yeah.
00:36:05
Jason Vaughn
You know, we don't have to control the weeds in the lawn particularly. We can just run over them with a lawnmower and keep them down like that.
00:36:10
Plant People
If it's green, it's good.
00:36:11
Brett
yeah
00:36:11
Plant People
and Yeah.
00:36:12
Jason Vaughn
Yeah. Yeah. So in many ways, and especially if you're somebody that does not know, um is not very, doesn't have a big plant palette of things that you can put in the ground as far as either landscape or vegetables, things like that, it can it can get away from you pretty quickly.
00:36:30
Jason Vaughn
um So yeah, that's that's some that's kind of some of the big ones. And then I think maybe somewhere deep down, ah ah read a book a while back called Second Nature by Michael Pollan, who's a great author.
00:36:45
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:36:47
Jason Vaughn
I've read several good books by him. But he kind of went on this journey of learning how to garden. And he had a whole section that was about the lawn. and i And I think that basically when, you know, Homo sapiens were kind of developing, ah we grew up, we came up in these savannas in Africa where, you know, they're kind of dotted by a few trees throughout.
00:37:10
Jason Vaughn
And then basically like a short grass prairie that where we could stand up and we could see for long distances. So there's like ah deep down he says that there's a kind of a comfort in that um a comfort in that a feeling of safeness a feeling of orderliness you know if you think about the modern lawn there's short grass there's hopefully a couple of nice trees in there
00:37:22
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:37:35
Jason Vaughn
some color from some annuals, foundation from some shrubs. So I think that maybe deep down I still am a lawn guy. And to be quite honest with you, there's some days that I don't, but I still like getting out there and zoning out and just going back and forth and mowing my grass.
00:37:54
Jason Vaughn
so Absolutely.
00:37:55
Plant People
You like to, so your team enjoy cutting grass. That's you're on that side of things. Yeah.
00:38:01
Jason Vaughn
Absolutely.
00:38:01
Plant People
Gotcha. I think there's a lot of people there.
00:38:02
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:38:02
Brett
What about you, Ray?
00:38:03
Plant People
Yeah.
00:38:04
Brett
does then i mean ah Some of what he um said speaks to what you feel, I guess.
00:38:07
Plant People
ah it It does, especially with children, because I've noticed, ah and me myself, you know, Reed and I like to do, you know, we go out back, we throw the baseball around, but I have friends that have soccer kids.
00:38:18
Plant People
And they, I'm not, I don't have a lot of lawn space out front, and I have most of my back lawn, it's a large area, but it's sloping. But I have friends whose kids are really into soccer and their one goal was, well, actually two goals, is to have a resilient turf space where their kids have about three kids in soccer, that they could practice soccer that's a safe, uniform surface.
00:38:35
Jason Vaughn
Thank you.
00:38:42
Plant People
and a resilient grass to cover that. So that's their goal. And that's strictly, i mean, the guy, you know, particularly the dad, he could care less whether or not he's got a beautiful lawn, but it ended up that way on the soccer field that they have at home, kind of a practice area, ah because he wants a nice thick area with turf that's resilient. And if the kids fall, it's a little bit safer than bare dirt. So I kind of like that. That's strictly from a functional standpoint.
Balancing Lawn Health and Resource Use
00:39:12
Plant People
And I believe you get more on the commercial side typically in that scenario, but it also goes for home. If you have high traffic areas, I mean, I will match the plant and its, you know, attributes to what people want that to do from just a functional standpoint.
00:39:22
Brett
Thank you.
00:39:27
Plant People
And turf can be very functional. Now, what do you want it to be? Well, you can match that up. It may be that your turf ends up being a black eyed Susan in an English garden, or it may be a cool season, very turf oriented fescue. That's good for the kids to practice soccer on. That's going to, you know, have some traffic tolerance. So I approach it from strictly and what's your objective standpoint.
00:39:52
Plant People
um And ah that's usually the first thing I ask a homeowner, well, what, what's your goals for this? I mean, how perfect does it have to be or what, function it has does it have to carry out? So really i have to find that out first.
00:40:05
Brett
Yeah, I think for me, it's it's just interesting because i a lot of what we do within local foods, within horticulture, within this this space, whatever, the home and gardens, whatever you want to call it, there's a lot of like mythologies and there's a lot of slogans and there's a lot of buzzwords and terms and trends and things about you know the no lawn, going away from the lawn and all that kind of stuff. And obviously, we we have embraced the the more um other kinds of plants ah lifestyle in in the yard.
00:40:37
Brett
But I would echo what Jason said 100%. It is significantly more work in terms of hours spent outside.
00:40:43
Plant People
Oh yeah
00:40:46
Brett
um The difference is, is it work that you care about?
00:40:50
Plant People
yeah.
00:40:50
Brett
And, and,
00:40:51
Plant People
Yeah. you're that you enjoy. Yeah.
00:40:52
Brett
Yeah. And on the flip side too, not on the flip side, additionally too, it it's significantly more money to do this than it is to do that.
00:40:53
Plant People
Yeah.
00:41:01
Plant People
Yeah.
00:41:01
Brett
So like if someone was, you know, I just moved into a house, I'm trying to like keep my space looking tidy and I want to put as little time and money into it as possible. I would say, keep cutting the weeds and the grass, do what you can.
00:41:12
Plant People
yeah
00:41:13
Brett
If you want to get some seed and start to overseed and think about that kind of stuff. But if you're trying to, to do any of that stuff to just save time, Or money.
00:41:22
Plant People
That's a great point.
00:41:23
Brett
Forget about it.
00:41:23
Plant People
That's a great, that's an awesome point, Brett.
00:41:24
Brett
because we because we could have we could i was I was just doing a little math in my head.
00:41:24
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:41:25
Plant People
That really is.
00:41:28
Brett
We could very easily have just kept the the grass that was there when we got here and have paid somebody to cut it. every week since we moved in here and we would probably be ahead of where we are in terms of money, but it's a really enjoyable space for us and it's a huge part of our lives.
00:41:44
Plant People
Yeah.
00:41:45
Brett
And, but as far as, yeah, I think that that's a really good point.
00:41:45
Plant People
yeah
00:41:49
Brett
And it, the, um, native plant garden yard yard is not as, uh, it's not always as, as, ah as sexy as as we I make it look, right.
00:41:59
Brett
Sorry about that.
00:41:59
Plant People
I mean, not everybody can make it look that easy, Brett.
00:42:03
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:42:03
Plant People
Not everybody can make it look that easy. that That's an awesome point. And I've worked with folks before, and both of you guys have already said it, but they're like, well, we're really trying to cut down our labor. So we're going to put in landscape beds. And I'm thinking in my head, well, let's let's break that down. And then I want to find out if landscape beds are something they enjoy mulching annually or you know every two years ah is ah kind is weeding.
00:42:27
Plant People
you know If they don't enjoy those activities, I'm like, what? well let's consider, you know, maybe not expanding the landscape beds a crazy amount because that that also entails its own labor, lot of times more labor. So if it's a labor of love, that is way different. The metrics behind that are different than if it's something you're also not going to enjoy.
00:42:47
Plant People
So yeah, that you guys just made like a really, really
Critique of Lawn Care Trends
00:42:50
Plant People
great point with you guys.
00:42:50
Brett
Yeah.
00:42:51
Jason Vaughn
I don't want to make any of your listeners upset, but one of my least favorite of all these sort of new, i don't even know it's new anymore, trends.
00:43:02
Jason Vaughn
I mean, I can go by the guy that has the chaos garden out front, where it is. We don't know what he's doing. There's annuals, there's natives, there's
00:43:09
Plant People
ah
00:43:11
Jason Vaughn
Boxwoods, there's is it's all out there. as a vegetables. And then, you know, I can go by the guy who's, you can tell it's stressed about his lawn that is fertilizing and spraying.
00:43:23
Jason Vaughn
the The one that I hate is just the huge bed of mulch these days that's like... It's got one little sickly ah Japanese maple and it's got one, you know, it's 300 square foot of mulch and it's got one little hosta right in the middle. I guess that's my least favorite of ah horticulture these days. I just i'm I'm trying to cut my lawn back, ah you know, but just because i I also like I'm blessed. I got, ah you know, almost a half acre.
00:43:54
Plant People
oh
00:43:54
Brett
Thank you.
00:43:54
Jason Vaughn
I like my lawn, but i like my I like my shrubs and I like my blackberries and I like my strawberries and I like my perennials.
00:43:55
Plant People
yeah, nice.
00:44:04
Jason Vaughn
i'm I'm trying to lessen my lawn, but I'm not going to do it with just mulch. So, yeah, that I hope I didn't run anybody off with that comment, but I'm not interested growing mulch.
00:44:13
Brett
No, not at all. I think i i think ah the the other part ah like the other kind of argument or or so you know vision within this, it's not really a dichotomy, but it's you know the the wild plant folks, get ah we get more airtime.
00:44:28
Brett
And so this is our attempt to kind of say, hold on a second, it's not all... I mean, because one of the things is crazy about ah to me about the um what we have done with the wild, a little bit wilder look and native species and and all that kind of stuff is you have to remember that everything only has a peak for a little while and then it's also still there for the rest of the year.
00:44:52
Brett
And so the, you know, the lilies or the, or the daffodils or whatever that came out, they're still there. And then when the echinacea comes out later on, like the beautiful flowers and then those flowers fade and then it's this kind of weird, you know, mess, scraggly mess.
00:45:05
Plant People
Yeah.
00:45:06
Brett
And, and so I think, again, obviously we are on that tip. That's kind of our vibe, but there are times, especially like this time of year with as much rain as we've gotten throughout this year,
00:45:18
Brett
it's a little wild. It's a little wild. And it's, I would say it's less wild in our front than it is in our back by ah a long shot, but um it's, ah it's just a different, and there are there are times where I wish that I could just take a a machine and pass it across it and have a nice kind of clean slate.
00:45:35
Brett
Like I could, if we, you know, still had it in in lawn. So I think that that's a, Yeah, it's an interesting one. And I'm i'm always kind of like, we we obviously have done the thing of like, here's the crazy way of converting everything.
00:45:48
Brett
But we also, umm I'm also still like self-critical enough to know like this there there is no perfect answer here.
00:45:55
Plant People
No, everybody's got a different goal.
00:45:56
Jason Vaughn
I was going to I was going to mention, um you know, I've heard Brett mention a couple of times now, um wild and so and sort of that kind of thing. you know, and a lot of us when we're I know a lot of more horticulture folks or really just anybody when they're.
00:46:16
Jason Vaughn
If they're not a golfer and and you and you say golf course, you you most people picture Augusta National, which is just
Environmentally Friendly Golf Courses
00:46:24
Jason Vaughn
pristine and perfect and vibrant green and white sand.
00:46:24
Plant People
Perfect. Yeah.
00:46:29
Jason Vaughn
And in their head, they just think like how much fertilizer, how much chemicals, how much extra water, all those things. But Interestingly, there's a very big trend these days. I mean, with any new golf courses that are being built, you know, there's big name architects, just like any building. There's big name architects that come in and design these new golf courses.
00:46:54
Jason Vaughn
And all of them, the style these days is a very wild, ah you know, the bunkers are not perfect lines around them.
00:47:05
Jason Vaughn
ah The grass is not, green grass is not something that they're interested in. They're putting very little ah fertilizers. they're They're trying, you know, new fescues that can handle very minimal inputs.
00:47:22
Jason Vaughn
um so So just like the lawn, you know there was there was very few people doing what you're doing in your lawn. 30 years ago. ah but golf courses now are very much going back to kind of that idea of, you know, more ah more of a English, Irish, Scottish look to the golf courses, a very wild, minimal inputs. I mean ah so that's a very interesting trend and in that it very much mirrors or parallels what what you're doing in your home lawn and a lot of people are doing
00:48:00
Brett
That's really cool. Yeah, I was thinking I was imagining kind of like a St. Andrews, but here kind of energy to the um to the to the approach. That's really that's that's
00:48:09
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
Conclusion: Reflections on Lawn Care
00:48:10
Brett
really cool.
00:48:10
Brett
Well, so um real quick, I know you you kind of gave us the the overview timeline of kind of what you'll do to your front yard. in in the throughout the season.
00:48:21
Brett
Could you just go back through that and just give maybe just a tiny bit more detail? So like, for instance, when is it that you're spraying? When is it that you're fertilizing? Just the kind of annual or or you know two year cycle or whatever of of your lawn care in the front that you're going through that you would say, this is a good place to start if you're either a new homeowner or you're interested in making that lawn look really cool.
00:48:44
Brett
By the way, one side note, ah when we were talking about why you do the front yard thing, there is an acceptable answer, I think, too, that is I really, really like the way it looks just aesthetically.
00:48:55
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:48:55
Brett
i like it, period. You know, that whether it makes money.
00:48:56
Plant People
yeah
00:48:57
Jason Vaughn
yeah Or many many men would probably tell you my wife the way likes the way it looks.
00:49:01
Brett
Right. if That's a valid.
00:49:02
Plant People
yeah really yeah beauty yeah
00:49:02
Jason Vaughn
you know and I try to make my wife happy.
00:49:03
Brett
That's a that that is a valid.
00:49:04
Jason Vaughn
and so um
00:49:05
Brett
We make all kinds of aesthetic decisions that it's just because I kind of prefer the way that looks.
00:49:11
Jason Vaughn
Yeah. So, yeah. Two things. ah Three things that I would i would very much um focus on if I was a um ah wanted to make my lawn look presentable ah and be very minimal in my inputs. And so um the first one is i raised that mower height up. We talked about that earlier. That's just an easy one I can go do in the garage in two seconds this afternoon.
00:49:39
Jason Vaughn
um So raising that mower height up. um As far as applying chemicals, um I do it once every couple of years and I do it in the fall. ah spring There's a saying that says spring is better than summer, but fall is best of all.
00:49:59
Jason Vaughn
So that that what we're doing in the fall is those especially we're going to get any annual weeds that germinated earlier in the year. We're going to get any winter annual weeds that have germinated in that August, September. So, you know, around the end of September is when I'm going to think about applying a chemical.
00:50:20
Jason Vaughn
And really what you're doing is as we're going into winter, These plants are, those perennial plants are taking up resources and putting it down in those roots and they're um going to hold it. And the next spring they got ah they got resources, boom, they're taking off.
00:50:38
Jason Vaughn
We're really taking, getting rid of those resources when we spray in the fall. um i love a hose-in sprayer um it it basically is a little little gun i'm sure y'all can put a link to one and in the show notes uh you know 15 bucks uh it's got a little uh trigger on it it's got a little container a little basin at the bottom you pour uh straight uh herbicide in there walk across with your water hose and cover the lawn completely. It's a very easy way to do it.
00:51:15
Jason Vaughn
Like I said, I usually do that in around September. I might do it every couple of years. If you've got a lot of weeds out there, might be something you need to do every year for a couple of years until that high mowing height starts growing in, filling in, covering up that soil like we talked about.
00:51:30
Jason Vaughn
And then as far as fertility goes, I'm always going to suggest that you go to take a soil sample to your local extension office, get a soil sample.
00:51:44
Jason Vaughn
um You know, I, I, I, I've been in many arguments here, not arguments, discussions in Powell County.
00:51:51
Plant People
no
00:51:52
Jason Vaughn
ah Folks, ah ah yeah you know, the 10-10-10, I just put it in the spreader and off we go.
00:51:52
Plant People
passionate discussion with me.
00:51:58
Jason Vaughn
And, you know, that that's causing a lot of issues. I mean, so um and.
00:52:02
Brett
Amen.
00:52:06
Jason Vaughn
As importantly, you're probably spending money you do not need to spend. I mean, most of our lawns in Kentucky are going to be plenty high in phosphorus and more than likely plenty high in potassium. So I've checked my soil several times. And so I am just adding nitrogen, ah you know, a simple high first number zero zero in that fertilizer analysis.
00:52:29
Jason Vaughn
And I'm usually doing that. i usually do that when i see the trees starting to change. I mean, could it be earlier? Yes. Could it be a little later? Yes.
00:52:41
Jason Vaughn
But ah in the fall, in the fall.
00:52:41
Brett
When you see the trees starting to change, what time of year? In the fall? So they're starting to lose their green and turn to the yellows and the reds and...
00:52:48
Jason Vaughn
Yes. um And, you know, there's there's a couple of reasons for that. ah ah You know, Dr. Williams did a lot of research on that. And so i just that's the way I do it. I think that when you go out, you start putting fertilizer down in May.
00:53:07
Jason Vaughn
One, your grass is already growing enough. ah You're forcing more top growth into that grass at but at the expense of roots going down.
00:53:18
Jason Vaughn
um And also that crabgrass that's about to germinate, it it's going to love that shot of fertilizer you just gave it.
00:53:25
Plant People
ahla in the weeds Yeah.
00:53:26
Jason Vaughn
So most of my stuff I do in the fall. Now, another thing I i will say is ah um I'm a grower and I try to really keep an eye on what my plants are doing. And so that's that's not only my blackberries or my hydrangeas, but that's also my grass. And so this year i have had enough lawn mowing. I've had enough ah grass growth this year. i will not be putting a drop of fertilizer down.
00:53:57
Jason Vaughn
Uh, I've had enough of it. I, I, my, my, my canopy thick enough for me. Uh, so I'm not, ah you know, I'm not going to do anything this year. I'll probably spray some weeds, uh, you know, towards that fall time. But other than that, that that's about it.
00:54:14
Brett
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that sometimes people lose sight of and we we do the marketing people.
00:54:19
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:54:20
Brett
Technically, I work in the world of marketing and unfortunately, ah sometimes those people are, they do as a disservice by calling fertilizer plant food.
00:54:29
Plant People
oh
00:54:29
Brett
And in reality, it's it's supplemental nutrition that allows it to do its thing and making its own food. And so you're saying, you know, they they've been... Lush, lots of foliage, lots of photosynthesis happening, lots of storage in the roots.
00:54:42
Brett
I'm not trying to give it a leg up. It's going to have a great year next year, whether I do this or not. I think that's really that's really, so you know, just a smart way of thinking about it and and a good example of like, how do you even make this decision?
00:54:47
Jason Vaughn
Yeah.
00:54:54
Brett
Because I do think one of the other pieces besides. some sort of like a biodiversity or just a personal cultural aesthetic that, you know, um I plant native plants and I'm better than you or something.
00:55:05
Brett
I think another reason why sometimes lawns catch a bad rap is because there's this association and same way with the golf courses, there's this association with just so many, the world according to chemistry.
00:55:16
Brett
And what I've heard from you is pretty minimal. I mean, it's a pretty minimal amount of inputs. And in most cases, they're but it's based on data about like, what do you need in your soil tests? it's So I think that, that I think is really interesting.
00:55:32
Brett
And, and the, the image of the lawn care company rolling up and spraying every 48 hours or something that maybe some people have in their minds, that doesn't have to, you know, that that's not even necessarily smart.
00:55:44
Brett
In most cases, it's going to be too expensive. It's going to be maybe even wasted, ah wasted energy or effort.
00:55:47
Plant People
Yeah.
00:55:50
Plant People
We have a great publication, Brett, that I'll kind of plug her here and we'll add that to the show notes, but it's low input lawn care for Kentucky. And it really stresses um the the whole publication is about growing a healthy ah grass, lawn grass, and the rest will take care of itself. Kind of like Jason was saying,
00:56:10
Plant People
If you approach it from selecting good practices for the grass, that'll select against, you know, things that you may consider weeds. But I'll link that in the show notes. And it kind of summarizes this, a lot of the conversation we've had today in that you're in, one of my end goals is to have very low input and still a decent turf cover out front.
00:56:30
Plant People
I want minimal inputs, both in time and monetary resources. So,
00:56:36
Jason Vaughn
It's always a balancing act. it So the resources and then issues, the the more fertilizer I start putting down, the lusher that plant is, the more diseases like lush green things, the more insects like that.
00:56:37
Plant People
yeah
00:56:49
Plant People
Yeah.
00:56:50
Jason Vaughn
Okay, well now I had to play ah i had to apply a fungicide. Well, now I had to apply an insecticide. Well, now i got a little burned up. I need a little, I need a little water out there too.
00:57:01
Jason Vaughn
Now I got to put in an irrigation system.
00:57:02
Plant People
Yeah.
00:57:03
Jason Vaughn
So as you keep going up and adding stuff, you start having more, more issues.
00:57:03
Plant People
if you If you irrigate it, man.
00:57:08
Jason Vaughn
So there's that, it's about finding that happy medium where, you know, i got a healthy turf.
00:57:08
Plant People
Yeah.
00:57:13
Jason Vaughn
I do got a few weeds out there. I can live with that. If we get real hot and dry, I might turn a little brown in a few areas. I can live with that. So managing, um you know, balance, finding a balance with it all is is kind of that sweet spot is and that's where I found in my lawn is a, you know, ah her ah a herbicide application every couple of years, a fertilizer application kind of based on what I've been seeing and how it's been growing.
00:57:28
Plant People
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:32
Plant People
and
00:57:42
Plant People
Yeah.
00:57:42
Brett
And just just to be clear in case anybody's listening along and this they're new to this, this would be a a selective herbicide that is for just broadleaf weeds, not for grass.
00:57:53
Plant People
Yes.
00:57:53
Jason Vaughn
Correct. Yes.
00:57:54
Brett
Yeah.
00:57:54
Jason Vaughn
That's ah' a very good point.
00:57:55
Brett
Don't, don't spring round up on the lawn in the fall. You'll be in for a surprise, a surprise in the spring.
00:57:58
Plant People
the The keyword being selective.
00:57:58
Jason Vaughn
No, very good point. Yes.
00:58:01
Brett
um
00:58:01
Jason Vaughn
yes
00:58:02
Brett
Cool. Awesome. and You have any other, any other thoughts you want to leave us with before? i've I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's been, it's been nice to just talk about a little bit different view on, on this, all this stuff. Any other thoughts you had Jason before we say goodbye?
00:58:16
Jason Vaughn
No, i appreciate you guys having me on. I mean, you know, I've always felt sort of that, and I get it, it's easy to drive past that golf course and you see the irrigation heads flying. It's, you know, and I think we always want to make...
00:58:29
Jason Vaughn
in the world today, we always want to somebody has to be the bad guy with everything. yeah You know, but having been on, so I used to work at Idle Hour Country Club in in Lexington. And I'll tell you what, i one of the best wildlife things I've ever seen is at Idle Hour Country Club right in downtown Lexington.
00:58:49
Jason Vaughn
It was about 6.15 in the morning. I pulled up on number three, right by number three T. We had some what we call native areas long grass i look over there and it's a uh a little family of foxes if anybody's ever seen pup foxes they just jump on top of one another they just you could tell they're wrestling they're having so much fun and it was so beautiful um that you know I think that's just you know some of our golf courses right in the middle of cities are one of the few places for our wildlife to really kind stretch their legs. um
00:59:25
Jason Vaughn
So you know they're not they're not all bad. Every superintendent out there that I know is very conscious of the environment. They're very much trying to ah be as safe as they are get better with the products they're using, and use less of everything.
00:59:43
Jason Vaughn
Just like everybody that that that we kind of know, they're they're the same kind of people. And I was one of those people for many years. So yeah, no, it's good to come in and kind of defend those guys and give them a, a different perspective to some of those things. So i appreciate you guys having me.
01:00:01
Brett
Yeah. And then the reality is just, just as you did, there is a whole world of employment out there for folks who come up through the training programs that we have gone through and the college programs and strong relationships and lots of other areas too. So I think it's, you know, it's important as we think about the broader horticultural and plant world. That's a huge, huge part of it, both culturally and economically and and otherwise. So um cool. Well, I'll just say thanks to everybody for listening in to this podcast. Thank you again to Jason. If you'd like to get a hold of us, ah follow us on Instagram at horticulturepodcast.
01:00:37
Brett
You can also email us if you have questions or you want to have another episode with Jason. ah Let us know that at hortculturepodcast at gmail.com.
01:00:48
Brett
And with that, I'll say goodbye for now. And we appreciate you listening. And we'll see you or hear you or speak to you next time.