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How Impressive Are High Power Muzzleloaders? – Luke Horak – Arrowhead Rifles
204 Plays16 days ago
This week on the Tricer Podcast, Drew has Luke Horak from Arrowhead Rifles. Have you hunted with a high power muzzleloader? They are absolutely impressive approaching speeds of many high power rifle cartridges. Luke Horak from Arrowhead Rifle has perfected the high power muzzleloader game and builds some of the best muzzleloaders and rifles in the States. These guys talk about muzzleloaders and the get into rifles as well. Tons of great info in this one.
LUKE HORAK – ARROWHEAD RIFLES
Website - https://arrowheadrifles.com
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/arrowheadrifles/
TRICER USA
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Transcript
Introduction to Tricer Podcast and Arrowhead Rifles
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to the Tricer Podcast, where we talk all things hunting, gear, and the great outdoors. Before we begin, let's start things out right and put God first. Lord Jesus, I thank you for Tricer, and I ask that you can use this podcast as a way to bring joy to all of our listeners. We lay Tricer and this podcast at your feet. Amen.
00:00:22
Speaker
All right. I want to bring the guy on the podcast who is responsible for eliminating scopes off muzzleloaf across the West. Yeah, I don't know about that, but I think it was maybe a group effort, but we definitely definitely played a part in it for building to go to muzzle loaders. Luke Horrok from Arrowhead
Long-Range Shooting and Scope Regulations
00:00:45
Speaker
Rifles. um If you've seen Brady Miller shooting, you know, five, six hundred yards of the open site muzzleloader, he's shooting Luke's muzzleloader. If you see you guys, you know, dropping down with six hundred yards, he shouldn't. They're shooting Luke's muzzleloader. If you want like the best
00:00:58
Speaker
breach plug, ah like bolt action style muzzleloader, modern muzzleloader, arrowhead rifles are the dudes. And I'm not joking when I say you probably are the reason why we can't have scopes on our, our lowly CVAs anymore. Yeah. Yeah, which turned out to not be as big a handicap as we thought it was going to be. But yeah, it's definitely is a handicap.
00:01:21
Speaker
Yeah, dude. well i mean Even for me, like like I went to New Mexico this year. If I had a scope, I would have been done. like dave I would have killed five bucks. right I would have been done. But I was like, I got to handle like your open sight one at um Sheep Show last weekend. And I'm like, dude, if I had this gun,
00:01:39
Speaker
I could have got it done with that peep site. like at two hundred I could have shot him at 200 yards all day long, 300 yards all day long. oh yeah It was just me trying to get like into those like salt cedars you know and get down with them or I just could not close the deal. Every time I got with the 80 yards, 100 yards, there's 40 does and they're blowing everywhere. It's just such a different... You're almost like bow hunting now.
00:01:59
Speaker
little bit you know I almost feel more accurate with my bow sometimes than with my muzzleloader, honestly, offhand. or offhand um You're almost like bow hunting now versus being able to get up on a rock and get that you know the lay down and get that prone shot. and yeah What you're doing is really impressive with these muzzleloaders.
00:02:17
Speaker
Thanks. Yeah, the you don't have to worry about him jumping the string with the muzzleloader at least. But no, no, that's. Yeah. the So the ah of what is it? New Mexico and Utah both got rid of magnified optics. Utah, let's still use a one power scope. But yeah.
00:02:36
Speaker
i I kind of feel like the peep site, or at least for me personally, like a lot of the reticles are so thick in the one power scopes that by the time you get out to a couple hundred yards, the peep sites may be even better than just using the optic.
00:02:50
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you might as well just run a freaking a peep site at one power is not really doing any things. It's just, it's it's just a site there. Right. Uh, I guess, I guess. Are they making a one power scope with like M rads on it or with MOA like turrets on it? I think they're all I've seen her straight duplex, like thick. No, no turret though. Right. I mean,
00:03:10
Speaker
Uh, no, I think they do have, I think maybe Arkin has a turd on theirs. I think. Or not Swarovski vortex has one with the turn on there so you could dial up.
Sight Challenges and Shooting Preferences
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, unless you take the cap off and do it, I mean, cause you could do that too. I mean, whatever you got to do to, you know,
00:03:25
Speaker
So pulled as their art, the red dot site with a turret, but I have, yeah yes, I, I didn't know why those one um MOA dots never looked like one on my way to me. They just looked like a big red starburst, but I guess that's the stigmatism in your eye. Doing that is what I've been told. So the the red dots definitely aren't doing it for me.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, I've never, I actually just shot Red Dot last month for the first time in a PRS match out of my handgu on a handgun I borrowed. it So I just bought a mill dot. I bought a competition pistol and I'm putting on a, it's a, not Trigicon, it's a EOTech. It's their new like $600, their new Red Dot, but I got the six m MOA.
00:04:10
Speaker
red dot okay instead of like the three, they have like a three, a six, a nine. I want the six, which is a bigger red dot, but like first acquiring quicker. But yeah, I could imagine on a rifle that getting really big at a hundred yards. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, in theory, if you're listening to this, what that means is if you have a one, say you're at three, I think, I don't even know if they make one MOA red dots, do they? Yeah. In a rifle, they probably are, huh?
00:04:35
Speaker
The, yeah, the, well, the loop hold RDS is a one M it's supposed to be one MOA, but it's in the middle of the crosshairs. Yeah. So like typically on a red dot though, like one or you get on a pistol or an AR, I guess some Washington gets a three MOA. Yeah. There's a close com close quarters combat tool essentially. Right.
00:04:51
Speaker
So, yeah, I do think it's one of my ways inside my maven right now, it has that dot, and my leopold. But what that means is at 100 yards, it's three inches big. So, if I'm looking at a deer now at, let's say, 400 yards, my red dot, that is a 12-inch circle on that deer, in theory. Yeah, it will actually slightly bigger than that, right? Because it's one, technically.
00:05:13
Speaker
1.15 inches of the hundred yards. Yeah. Anyway, I mean that's in the, in the grade. Dude, I just switched over to, I'm an MRAD guy now, because I'm shooting competitively. So I'm like, I got all my hunting rifles are MOA, which is cause it's easier for me. It's just one MOA, one quarter click is a quarter inch. I could say, I could say your MOA rifle and for you and If it took me eight shots, it was a lot of shots. Most of them like five shots. I can typically do one shot to get it down, get it pretty darn close with them away. MRAD is a little bit different because it's like 3.46 per MRAD, right? So like like three and a half inches essentially. And then you got to look at like each each quarter of an MRAD is like seven eighths of an inch. And it's just ah each click is like three eighths of an inch.
00:05:59
Speaker
Once you get into the MRAM, it's like 3.6 inches, right? Because it's 36 inches at 1,000 yards, and then it comes down in tenths, and so tenth is 0.36. But that for your wind calls, the mills just make so much more sense. It's so much easier than like 12 MOA, it's like, oh, it's three, it's three M rats. You know what I mean? It's just so much easier. And plus if you're shooting MOA now competitively, like an NRL or PRS, you're the guy shooting, shooting MOA, like everyone's shooting MRAD. So like you want to shoot MRAD that way you're not having to do a lot of it has like, especially in PRS, you're all talking to each other and you're working as a team. Like, Hey, how many, you know, you're, you could see like your dope is going to match. If you're a lot of guys shooting the same cartridge, your dopes can be pretty close to their dope. Like I wouldn't use I'd open maybe their window if I would use, or like, hey, I'm getting this. And you're like, oh crap, well, I'm getting three MRATs. You're only getting one. Oh, I had something wrong on my Kestrel, right? But you're doing MOA and you're trying to do that math all day long. And you're like, okay, well, one MOA, one MRAT is actually three and a half MOA. And you're just like, it just goes downhill quick. You don't want to do that math. So MRAT is kind of where it's going to
00:07:11
Speaker
um I mean, I hate the metric system, but and when it comes to rifles, I'm probably switching my, I would guess that my hunting rifles will start converting over to as I build them. Like my next hunting rig I build will probably be MRAT just because I'm shooting so much competitive stuff now that I don't want to have to go back and forwards.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, like i I love the mills for that baseline wind. You can find like with my 300 Norma every at an eight mile per hour crosswind, every 100 yards is another 10th of a mill. So yeah can you can just, ah something you can memorize easy to get a you know quick and dirty wind call without having to run numbers.
00:07:50
Speaker
Did you say 300 Nozler? What did you say it was? Normal. 300 Norma. Yeah. My father-in-law, we're going to Mexico tomorrow. We're going to Sonora. And he's 76. And it's going to be, you know, we're hunting coos, countries. It's going to be a big country. I said,
00:08:04
Speaker
So what do you want me to bring? I said, I want you to bring your 30 knots. He was like, really? I'm like, yep. ah We're going to find you a buck and lay you down, dude. were You know, I'm not the biggest long range hunter, but with him, like in this country, like I told him, we're going to be stretching you out a little bit. You know, it might be getting five, 700 yards and just bring the, bring the gun that bucks to win the best and you know, yeah kills it dead. I've killed all my Coos deer with a 300 Norma.
00:08:26
Speaker
Are you shooting like the two 15 or two 20 burgers? What are you shooting out of it? I use the two 15 burgers burgers. Yeah. This right. This was why I actually just retired my old Norma and built a new one this year. And I, the load I worked up in the new one, I'm running the two 25 ELDM.
00:08:44
Speaker
out of it just for the extra BC. But the um mean I'm bringing it along. I've got a couple buddies that don't cross guns, so they'll they'll probably use the Norma. You're going to Mexico, too, this week? Yeah, we're leaving Saturday. Oh, bitching, dude. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked. I think we're timing it perfect. I was talking to Dar the other day, or, well, last night, he said, you know it's just the little ones chasing. Right now, the big ones are still so low. so Yeah. We pushed it back. Like last year I went down, I think like the 16th and just wasn't happening. And then like Brad and like all the guys at Grady were like, do we're going down like March and they got it. They were like, right tail ended. I'm like, I'm going down. We're going down. What is this 24th? I think we're going to hit it. Perfect. It's been getting pushed back a little bit more and more every year, even like Arizona, like they call that December tag a rut tag. It's not that fifth. It's not a rut tag at all.
Hunting Experiences and Conservation Efforts
00:09:38
Speaker
Like the rest been going, maybe if you're hunting,
00:09:40
Speaker
like nor they're like in some of the 20 units, you might get some more running action to end in December, like the last week. Yeah. But like the run is kind of been getting pushed back, you know, especially in the Sonora. So I'm well, now the moon's going to be perfect for us this week, too. Is it dark? I've looked at them and I just looked at the weather Saturdays that there's no moon for a week. So, dude, that's what I'm going to be there. And the weather it's cooled off like a big cold front blew in. So, yeah, I mean, they they should be rutting their minds out, hopefully.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, by the time this airs, we'll both have dead bucks, I hope. i'm kind of My goal is to hold out for a teen's buck. We'll see how I am with that. I told him i i just won't shoot a buck. I mean i think I've killed like seven deer this year or something, or antelope deer. i mean That kind of size animal.
00:10:23
Speaker
I really don't need to kill another one. So that's, it's got like, and this is like a one Oh five with like two droppers and some so yeah stuff, go some trash. Like it's probably going to get a pass from me this week. And i I'm a one, one 20 or bust as well. One 20 or bust dude. That is a crazy goal. I want a teen's buck. That's my goal is a teen's buck. Did one 20 is like a, gosh, what did I put that into? I'd probably put that into a,
00:10:47
Speaker
It's like for people who don't do kids you're you're like 120 you guys are much of pans He's like, you don't understand like that's probably a 380 bull plus. Yeah, probably One ten is all-time boot and Crockett. Yeah. Yeah I mean like I'm saying like if I were to put it in sizes like it might even be a 400 I think it's probably knocking on a 400 like size for sure the 390s boy, it's a it's Not all coups you get to that size, even in Mexico, right? Like it's not, it's like the genetically just don't a get there. Like they, they, they top out, right? Like the buck I killed last year was one 18 the year before. Then we had that big drought. I shot him at one Oh eight, right? Dude, if you shot a one Oh eight in Arizona, every form we'll be talking about it, passing pictures around, you know what I mean? Like one Oh eight in Arizona is a big deal. One Oh eight in Mexico is a good big deal. And most of the guys you see online, you see these pictures, they're shooting, um,
00:11:41
Speaker
high 90s to 105 bucks in Mexico. A lot of the guys are shooting 105s, 102s down there. um i Even anything over 105 is a tough gear to find. right so mean like I know like I can bring my partners down, they never kill bucks. like I don't want them to shoot 90 inch buck, but if I see a good 100 inch, 102, 103 inch deer, I'm probably you letting them yeah send the old 308 down there, you know the 168 TTSX that they eat.
00:12:05
Speaker
so No, I've, uh, well, my wife's from North Sonora, so I got the family in down there, but, uh, yeah, I've, let's see, I've shot a one, a one 23 by three, uh, one. Was that like 17 wide?
00:12:24
Speaker
No, he wasn't that way. He's only 14 and a half. Oh, so he's even cooler, just super tall and just mass all like nine, nine and a half inch G2s. Yeah. Oh, dude. That's so like, that's such a cool buck, dude. Yeah. have Big eye guards. Not huge. to Like two and a half inches. Really? Just, I mean, mass, at mass, mass.
00:12:43
Speaker
Mass. That was like about such a bucket last year was like 33 inches of mass, dude, like and he was only 12 inches wide. He went one way. Like he was like, dude, he's just all mass. He's just he's like they call him chubs for a reason. dude He's a short study last year. I did. like And then I like I did kill a one like a one twenty five and one thirty three. They got they got a lot of trash on them. That helps add up. But and then the year after I killed those two, I did a horrible misjudge like it was one laying in the grass and I was we just had it or our new baby was like 3 months old, you know why for what you home. Yeah, so I was like yeah, I was out with the just me and the one of the Cowboys from the ranch. So I didn't have you know really a second judgment call on that like Alex Alex.
00:13:36
Speaker
you know, get enough for, you know, it was a hundred degrees that year. You can't trust Mexicans, I'm sorry, when it comes to judging deer. Every deer is 110 inches. I smoked it like 500 yards, walked up to it and it was, we never measured it, but it was probably like 90 inches. It was like, I went back to like, was that really the deer we glassed up? And yeah, no, it was.
00:14:04
Speaker
last Last year, yeah last year we I killed, ah i was it was a three by two, but it went 115. Are you hunting with Jay every year or are you hunting on your family ranches? Family ranches. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay, so you got like a... See, you did what I'm trying to get my kids to do.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah. I didn't know what that is. A Mexican rancher. Like I need my kids to like, to like that or like maybe like a native somewhere. Like just get me in, give me into one of these like, you know, Navajo, you know, go home with some of these, you know, what's it, Carl's bad. Like one of the goods is married in India. San Carlos. Yeah. Remember me, San Carlos Indian something you guys like to make yourself more valuable to dad. I have five kids. If you get me into Sonora every year, especially on a big, maybe a sheep ranch where you can kill some bighorns, then you will be moving up quick on the dad's favorite kid list if you get me on a bighorn sheep because they're so expensive.
00:15:01
Speaker
Dude. That auction we were just talking before we started recording, 1.35 million. that Yeah, like 1.37. It's for a sheep tag in New Mexico. It's the story I read i heard i like rumors of is they killed, like I think this the world record's like 205.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I think someone killed a 202 down there last year. I think there's another Ram that might go bigger. And that's why it went so high. That must be. And I could be, I could be like spreading rumors right now, but I'm pretty sure that's just going on. is that they They know, like nobody spends that much money on a sheep tag.
00:15:40
Speaker
It's not like it's going away. New Mexico is not like Arizona or Arizona is going away this year. right like theyre they There's a sheep. There's got to be a sheep that everyone knows about. there everyone's kind of rumbling I heard like a little rumbling at the show like kind talking about this sheep that's out there. so dead and you know This is what's nuts. What people don't understand is like once they buy that tack for 1.35, then they're paying the guide like a quarter mil to sit on that ram. like there's You don't hire a guide. You hire a team.
00:16:07
Speaker
Right. Like and that team goes out and now sits on that Ram and gets you there half the time. These guys just fly in and shoot the damn Ram and take off, you know. But i this is a an expensive endeavor. They can't be bothered to take the time to walk over. Right. Some of the time it's a little I don't want to say who it is, but I heard there's a guy who's a little porky and ah he can't get down to the elk sometimes. so He'll shoot him and they'll bring the head up from a picture.
00:16:33
Speaker
Why out? So I've heard the rumors. I don't know. But I mean, two years thrown, man, it's so good for sheep. I mean, that but that sheep so show is so good, man. They're just raising millions of dollars of conservation. yeah I mean, all these antis out there, like you don't understand, like we saved sheep, hunters save sheep. Right. It's it's, yeah, next level, man, the amount of contractors. I mean, it's so hard to make up that money. Like we don't we donate a rifle every year to you know we do do a few of them at the different shows. And it's like.
00:17:01
Speaker
and maybe raise 10,000 bucks, which isn't nothing, but then you like it, like just how that compares against the tag that goes for 1.35 million. Like it's so hard to to make up that kind of money through other avenues.
00:17:14
Speaker
It's so funny because like, I mean, sheep, everyone wants to kill sheep. I want to kill sheep. Like right now, I mean, if I drew the tag, I would take my whole, set it would be done. Like if I drew an Arizona tag this year or a California tag, you wouldn't see me for six months. It would be, I'd be moving out my family or moving out there. We're going to find the sheep, find the biggest sheep. I'm going to kill it. Yeah. But like, it's such a weak animal. I mean, like they get next to one domestic sheep that things, the whole herd dies. You know what I mean? Like they just get what they get a sneeze. like you might as Well, but maybe maybe not a pop popular opinion or one you're supposed to say, but is it like, is it really that hard to kill a sheep, right? Like that's right's like in the 90s or something. It's not hard to kill. It's I don't think it's that. I think it's just like this like status thing. And it's like you just can't you can't go and draw one every year. Like the thing with the sheep is like you can't like the only way to guarantee a sheep tag is to buy a sheep tag.
00:18:04
Speaker
That's it. like you can't like That's one thing I love about, like we had this we had a thing, a controversy in San Diego where this guy had 20 points and another guy duped him out of his points for a seven point tag and then left him on the mountain. right and like I was just like so offended by it because it's like,
00:18:23
Speaker
20 points is 20 years. You cannot buy points, no matter how rich you are. You can buy a tag, but you can't buy my points. You can't buy a point. And I know there's games they do in Arizona with points and they buy tags and do stuff. i get I get that, but there's games. and turn That's why you guys will see they start they got rid of like turn back tags and stuff because people were duping on points and then they'd turn their points back and do it every year. So you're seeing states go where you're going to lose a point if you do that, or you're not going to get your points back.
00:18:49
Speaker
yeah um Because, I mean, there's always game people gaming the system, but you can't go and buy 20 points. So to me, 20 points is priceless. Like when I go and spend, like I have right now, I have eight to 12 points in most states. When I go and spend nine points, like that's a big decision for me, right? Like I've got my Wyoming draw coming up here in a couple of days and I've got the Arizona one and like I put these, I put a lot of thought down. I'm not as flagrantly throwing around points. Cause like once I burn nine points, we're talking 50 before I get those points back. I'll be 50 years old, right? Or darn near. Right. And, uh, but they can buy cheap tax, you know, they can't get the points, but they can buy a sheep tax. That's why I think they do it. Cause it's just like, it's such a hard tag to draw. It's like a supply and demand thing, man.
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. you know Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. I mean, even the dollar sheet thing, that's not even a supply and demand thing. It's just like, it went from, I mean, in 2019, like 14 grand to shoot a dollar sheet, but now it's like, you can't get out of it for less than 30. Right. Yeah. i well Well, I guess for me, I'm sitting on the sidelines till I draw. So probably forever. But you never know. Everyone gets. We had a guy who put his girlfriend in here in Arizona that lives down the road from us last year. Zero points drew a sheet tag. So no way. Yeah. Golly, man. I probably have to marry her, I guess. But that marry or be mad at her? One of the two. I don't know what I would be. Yeah, I would. You know, whatever. It's ah that's why you. Yeah.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah. I had a couple of pods on last year. Like I had Ethan Demers from Gohan. He's actually not there anymore. He went into the um national guard, but ah he drew with like four points. I know there's a guy, like a dentist on, he drew like a 27 tag dude with.
00:20:31
Speaker
Eight points. Oh, so yeah, I mean it happens. It happens. And I love hearing that man. Like I love like that story. The guy that just draws that tag and goes and does it. But yeah, man, I don't know how fun is draw season, right? Oh, dude, I love it. It's like I'm so I got it down to I got it or anything ever. And it's still fun seeing who gets a good tag and stuff. Right. Well, it's almost like playing the lottery. Like every day you put in, you're like.
00:20:56
Speaker
It might be me. Yeah. Like you hear it, dude, like at some point, like I just feel like I applied like 10 states a year. Like at some point I'm going to draw a New Mexico heel attack. Right. Like I put over the heel, like every year, like someone would draw that tag. But like, you're probably, you're probably a big enough celebrity now to draw one of the 200 tags at the hun expo. Now maybe that's the, that's the joke there. Right. You gotta be a celebrity. that celebrity. I would think say that in total just but I know ah i there's you can't you can't shake a stick at that show without running into some it's a celebrity at the show oh dude like it's it's pretty funny like anyone who listens to this podcast anyone who knows you personally knows that I'm just like the most normal dude.
00:21:38
Speaker
It is pretty strange people getting pictures of me and stuff. yeah Like I'm not going to lie, that's pretty weird. Like I'm like, like get like, Hey, and like in Walmart or like when I go into like a sportsman's, like you see people looking at you like, Hey, what's up? Which is kind of cool. But like the mustache just sells me. Like it's like, they just, yeah there's no running from this mustache dude. It is. No, who I am.
00:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, you don't have to just do like the Groucho Marx with it. Eventually shave it off and just tape one on when you do it. I can't like the mustache. I have to put insurance policy on it. The mustache is the brand. I have a good, it's like Samson's hair. You know what I mean? I have a good authority. If I shave this thing off, like all the ideas will leave my head. I'm too afraid to shave it off now, dude. Yeah. Oh, it's funny. I rocked one last year for a little bit. It was a,
00:22:19
Speaker
It's a good look. i mean did i have't shaved did Did you used to be a fireman or something? No, I haven't got i haven't seen my upper lip since like 2018. Oh wow. It's been a long time, dude. Then I had a beard and I shaved that off and like, I think I've had the mustache for like four years solid now. Okay. Yeah. just It's just, it at this point it's just, at this point it's just part of me. You know what I mean? We're going to see it just eventually start going grayer and grayer. Like I can get in the white hairs in there and stuff now, but it's getting there. Dude, I brought you all to talk about your freaking rifles, dude. We just like BS'd about Coosier, which is fun dude. This bullshit about Coosier, which is cool.
Arrowhead Rifles and Custom Rifle Builds
00:22:52
Speaker
Um,
00:22:53
Speaker
Let's go into airhead rifles a little bit. Long range hunting, etc. I do appreciate they're using a .30 caliber because I feel like everyone's just shooting like a .223 now. and i so i i i didn't get to I'm actually running i'm going to run a .25 SST for the gun down there.
00:23:10
Speaker
like you like it that the blessing door face Yeah. I even did a vanity serial number on the gun, Coos Killer. so Did you? Yeah. yeah i mean It's perfect purpose built for Coos Deere hunting. but that You look at the ballistic coefficient on some of the new bullets that Hornady came out with for the 25, that 138-grain A-tip, which is actually what I'm running. You're on the A-tips. I have the 138-grain A-tips in my 260.
00:23:38
Speaker
and Okay, so they they can it's not i my buddy at Hornady hooked me up. like I don't think they've actually started shipping them yet, but it's 138 grain, 257 cal. Yeah, mine's a 6.5, obviously, not 257. Yeah, so the G7 on it is 0.35.
00:23:54
Speaker
And I'm running it at 3,000 feet per second out of a 22 inch barrel. So it's. And that's a that's a look at 30 out six cage next down. I know the twenty twenty five SST is like a song. It's a wildcat, but it's like a magnum, a magnum. Yeah, it's kind of like a twenty five PRC. It's a little shorter overall, so it runs better in a short action with the long yeah bullets. But yeah, I tend to. um I tend to stay away from the lot of the Magnum shorts because I feel like I always have feeding issues. I tend to like... Actually, I love my 280 Acli. I love that cartridge a lot. yeah um This year, everyone's probably been saying, I'm just shooting .30-06 for everything. I'm bringing it to Mexico with me, a Woodstock, $800 gun. I'm shooting it for everything. um I like that the like the feedability of like that standard standard cartridge. right It just feels like they feed really well. um and You don't have issues shooting like something like that out of the feeding issues or anything?
00:24:47
Speaker
I know I'm on the Hawkins mags and XLR chassis and I had to do a little shaping on the spring to get it just right, but now it had zero issues feeding with it. I actually took it, I already went and took it on a cow elk hunt in New Mexico.
00:25:05
Speaker
Shot shot a cow at about 700 yards. She ran like 30 yards tipped over and we're taking some pictures high five and my buddy and I and we get to get a call from the the ranch manager's wife out on the road. And she's like, there's two coyotes on that elk you just killed. Oh, no way. I jumped back in the gun and ended up smoking two coyotes. Two of them. Yeah, they shot the big one and the little one on her own and I got. Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker
You always start with the big one and work your way down, right? That's how I do it. But yeah, so it, you know, it's cycle just fine. Fine for that. That's awesome. Yeah, that's what you tell you kind of touched on a little bit like, I feel like if you're going to run like a PRC, like a 600 PRC or any of these like Psalms, there is some stuff that kind of goes on with like feed ramps. And like, there's some feathering is like you can get gunboats a little scary. But people don't see that a lot. And I feel like you, you do have to do like you said, mess with the spring a little bit like,
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of ah we've pretty much gone to the Hawkins hunter mags on like, yeah, we, we, because like you said, you kind of have to feather the bolt on like, yeah, likes yeah and we get guys who didn't know how to work a bolt and they, you know, they expect it to run like your six, five Creed more and a PRS gun and like a,
00:26:22
Speaker
you know a 300 PRC or a 300 normal mag isn't going to run like a six, five Creed more. So going to the, we just, that center feed mag has, has alleviated most a non-stacked, a non-stacked mag. Yeah. yeah's sure Yeah. three Yeah. the hawk The Hawkins hunter stuff runs runs. I mean, every once in a while you got to pull them apart and shape a spring a little bit, but generally they've been, they've been bullet proof. And Definitely a lot harder for guys to screw up than like a top load. A stacked AI or something. Yeah. Well, not even an AI mag, but just like the BDL, hinged floor plate. Oh, hinged floor plate. That's where I see most of my issues is like the BDL, like my father-in-law has a 300 wisdom, did a bunch of work to get the outfeeds good.
00:27:07
Speaker
He's got a 300, he's got a how a 300 PRC that I gave him. I wanted it to event and dude, like anything to feed is just apparently about like, you're almost like, you're like in their sanding. Yeah, you're putting your finger. Yeah. I was trying to get it to feed, right? Cause it's just, this is magnum. Just don't like for me, like I'm like, I'm so simple. Like I like having that, like, I like a 308 case and I like 30 out six case. Like those, like those bullets in that variant is like, for me, it just works. And I feel like I'm not going to have issues with it. And I honestly don't even have a magnum.
00:27:35
Speaker
I don't have a magnum. I don't. I mean, I have a bunch of rifles, but I don't have a magnum. I got to do that. Maybe maybe we'll have to build you on one of these years. I'm going to have to build one, dude. I'm going to have to build like a, I mean, I guess right now it's kind of funny that you're shooting at 300 normal because it's like, like we all shoot 30 nozzler, like my all my friends have 30 nozzlers. I probably just go 300 PRC because now it's just like, it's so established. It's like, you know, it's kind of like one that whole battle.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, i just I just had a customer message made yesterday on Instagram. He's bought, I don't know, three or four guns from us. He's like, um I want to have you build me a big 30 cal. And he's like, 300 Norma or 300 PRC. I'm like, just just go 300 PRC. I mean, you you take a you know maybe 100 feet per second off the top compared to the Norma, maybe. but Like your, you know, your dyes are half the price. Your brass is half the price. You can find the right brass. Yeah. You can find rounds in like my buddy shoots a seven. No. Two fifty seven. I can't. It's a weird six five. It's like a neck down. Thirty six to two six five. What is that?
00:28:46
Speaker
Six-five Swede. Six-five Swede. Okay. Something like that. But whatever. He only brought 10 rounds to Arizona with us. And he he's like one of the best shooters I know. Well, he didn't miss it like eight times. And he wouldn't have two rounds left. We called everyone in Arizona. Nobody sells that round. No. no you're And I was like, you can shoot my gun. and He's like, hopefully this is this. He's like, I'll go home before I shoot your gun.
00:29:09
Speaker
And he shot a buck, dude, like I'm on a buck. And this guy's a phenomenal shot. It was just Wendy Coos country man, because you're smaller than you think. Yeah. He just had a, he just had to go at it. Uh, never misses a guy miss, he missed eight times, but he had, he shot it with one, you know, he had one round left to go home. So he killed it, killed a buck, got him onto a buck, turn your yards out and shot him. But, uh, so one thing I'd say is like, if you're shooting a 300 PRC now, it's just more of an established round to grab somewhere, right? Like.
00:29:35
Speaker
For sure. Versus like, yeah, versus like maturity actually improved. Like good luck finding actually improved, you know, it's even more popular. So you are seeing a lot more actively improved, but, um, I can say like I shoot two 60 Remington. And because I've been shooting two 60 for 10 years, kind of before Kim really took off. And now if I rebarrel that gun, I'll rebarrel it and create more. Yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah. i'm with you and And that's what like a 25 create more with, what is a nice round to, uh, if, you know, if we're heading towards those 25 Cal bullets, which i I do love the high BC for, you know, for the weight, uh, on those, but that's a smaller bullet, right? Small bolt and hammer than a.
00:30:16
Speaker
Just slightly. I mean, it's 264 is a six five, right? Yeah. So it's it's just like seven tenths of a thousand slightly small six five. But it's the B.C. just I guess the geometry they worked out and stuff where you're getting a pretty good ballistic coefficient bump ah for a lighter bullet. Yeah. But but yeah, so I guess we i mean we should probably talk muzzle loaders a little bit, too, while we're here. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah we're going to talk every week to the good hours. We'll get you all get to all that stuff. Yeah.
00:30:45
Speaker
I will say before we go on from that, like when it comes to 30 cals, when you do shoot like a 300 Norma or a 30 Nosler, you go go shoot steel sometime with somebody shooting that and like shoot it with a 6.5 Creedmoor at 500 yards, then shoot it with a 300 Norma and you will see like a freight train hitting something. You can't let people shoot your targets close to 300 yards because they'll knock them over. It's just such authority when those things hit. That's what we have at our range here at Cowtown outside of the Phoenix. There's like an 18 or 20 inch plate.
00:31:22
Speaker
650 yards and it must be like an inch thick because you shoot it with a 6.5 Creed more and it won't, you know, it might just, it just wavers just a little bit. You'll see yeah you'll see your bullet splash is about it. And then you yeah yeah hit it with the muzzleloader or the three iron Norma on it. You know, it actually does, does some swinging when you hit it with that, that bigger projectile.
00:31:45
Speaker
There's authority there, so that's a good way to to go into muzzle loaders because you just said 600 yards with a muzzle loader. I have a CVA, they're like base models, stainless steel muzzle loader, right? Open site muzzle loaders, my buddy knows muzzleloaders.com. He sent it to me a few years ago and it's what I've been using. But man, like I'm shooting out of that thing either the Barnes bullets or the Thor bullets.
00:32:11
Speaker
And I can't get about 150 yards with it. 150 yards I can hit pretty good. Like I can hit the darn circle, right, a pipe in. While I go 200 yards, I can't hit a two by two piece of paper. is It just starts opening up and going, that bullets tumbling, things are happening. And then you go and show me your muzzleloader at this event. And I see Brady shooting at all time. And holy smokes, dude. You've you've like perfected the muzzleloader and you're not even shooting a 50 caliber bullet. You're shooting, I'm sure you make one.
00:32:40
Speaker
But yeah, we do. ay We actually push people to a 45. Ideally, we we probably build you know like 20 to 145 over 50. Really, the only is Colorado elk. You can still use a 45 for deer in Colorado. So if you're if you're really into Colorado elk, but then The performance fall off from 50 to 45 is so much that generally I'll push guys to still build a 45 and then use the 50 cal CVA or whatever they have for their elk hunt. Because most of those Colorado elk hunts hunt anyway. You're going to get close. So don't handicap yourself in every other state just for a Colorado hunt. That's actually good advice that we're not going to go too much on.
00:33:32
Speaker
I tell people all the time, don't pigeon your whole yourself for one like for one situation. Kind of look at what you're gonna use most. right I'm always like, they're like, i might I might use this. I need to get a JC. and I'm like, dude, well, I guarantee you, most of you are probably using binoculars. You probably are better off with an AD and LP. I need to have a 30 power zoom scope in my rifle. Well, most of you are probably only going to need eight power zoom. You know what I mean? So maybe a three to 18 is a better scope for you than that like you know for those situations. So um why 45 cal instead of 40 cal? I know they're doing 40 cal as well.
00:34:08
Speaker
I can't remember the last time we built a 40 cal just because then you run into some states where the 45 is the minimum. So 45 is kind of the happy medium. So our system actually, I don't know if you saw those bullets at the show, but they kind of look like an A-tip bullet. They got a big old aluminum tip on the end. Those are your bullets you're making.
00:34:32
Speaker
Correct. correct we We sub it out, but they're made to our specifications. i Okay. But it's a flat base bullet, not a boat tail. So we do take a little bit of a BC ah hit on them. But we have we have pre sized bullets for the 45 because our our system is it's loose powder down the barrel. So Blackhorn 209. In the West, our guns are smokeless powder capable, obviously,
00:34:59
Speaker
yeah I got to throw the caveat out there. The warning never use smokeless in ah in a barrel or a muzzle or that stamp, black horn to our black powder. Only our guns are specifically designed to handle those pressures. ah So like Kansas East, most most of those states are smokeless powder legal like Iowa, where I grew up and started the business. You can use smokeless powder.
00:35:24
Speaker
Like arizona new mexico nevada utah all those states are are black powder sub so black or two of nine is what we use i use white hot like white hot pellets in the states. ah Yeah, you can use that, just the the performance fall off. okay Our system's really designed around Blackhorn 209. Yeah, I'm just saying, pellets are legal though, right? Yeah, yeah i think i mean i I think some of the i the Northwest states have some, you know may they may have some goofy laws where you can't use pellets. but
00:35:56
Speaker
i Most of the states ah around Utah, New Mexico, new Arizona, Nevada, those those states are rattled off. ah ah To my understanding, pellets are are legal.
00:36:10
Speaker
good ae so So it's just loose powder down the barrel and then no wad, no Sabo, just a ah ah copper jacketed lead core bullet down the barrel. So our we're we're controlling diameters on our bullets down to the 10th of a thou. So four four decimal places ah is is how close we run those to get the fit because there' it's metal on metal. there's no You know, there's no buffer and no, no matter how strong you think you are, you're not going to swage, swage a copper bullet by pushing it. You know, there's a tiny little bit of a spring in the copper jacket, but not not really perceptible amount. So we have that all dialed in for the 45. If you go to something like a 40, we don't do precise bullets. You have we have ah an adjustable sizing die that you swage the bullet through to get the perfect fit. But then the.
00:37:08
Speaker
The bearing surface on a like a 40 cal bullet to get the ballistic coefficient up is so much longer that you You're there's there's more interaction between the bullet and the barrel and following and it it just it just becomes more more involved So I won't I will build a 40 cal for someone I won't build a 40 cal for someone for their first gun just because it's It's really got to be something you understand that you're going to have to tinker with. You're going to have to tweak to get it dialed in. Just perfect. it It definitely can be done, but it's it's much more involved than what we've developed with the forty five, where it's just plug and play and go, you know, go to the range and start shooting right away. So get your muzzleloader. So why not go to like a terminus style action and make these changeable barrels? Is that not an option for muzzle loaders?
00:38:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean, we do pre-fit barrel nut barrels for Savage, Remington, all that stuff to where they can screw them. I have a 50-cal and a 45-cal, as I'm saying. Yeah, you could definitely do that. Now, the one downside to that is threads do stretch so like if if you have a site that is that's not a clamp on that's located with screw holes like your white star spit it on you it might ill start canting on you just like you take your you know it the the classic issue people used to run into before we had all these self-timing muzzle brakes was a you know a timed muzzle brake
00:38:44
Speaker
that the smith installed and as soon as the guy took it off and on like three times his threads would would stretch a little bit and all of a sudden his ports would yeah exactly so you can run into that we do have a clamp on site so that's that's an option but i really like that our 50 cals are great but they're there it's it's not that much of a step up over ah a cv because you're colorado's blackhorn 209 anyway it's not like you're going to run smokeless there so like a cva paramount pro 50 cal will as long as it will do pretty much everything as long as it shoots good i mean that's the one guarantee you're getting
00:39:26
Speaker
Buying a custom from us is it's you know, we're test firing it. It's it shoots great before it leaves here ah that you don't have with a you know with a factory gun, so And we I think we've we're we've got like three 350 cals in process right now So we we do build some of them, but you just get so much more perform I mean we're we're talking at a 300 grain bullet at 2500 feet per second really 45 cal it's got a point one eight five g seven b c so it's perspective my fifty cow with like three pellets can go like two thousand b per second maybe right yeah with a with a two hundred fifty grand bullet or two hundred fifty grand bullet yeah it's it's going maybe yeah that so it's like that's a lot i mean considering like i'm putting rifles out right now like my kids guns are shooting
00:40:20
Speaker
2650 to so we're killing stuff out to 400 yards all day long and went to 308 bullet. I mean, that was 168 grains, so about a push a ah bullet like that, 2,500 feet per second is is super impressive. So it's talking about the build of that gun because like youre you're running, you are making carbon fiber barrels as well. Correct. Carbon fiber, muzzleloader barrels, and then you're running it to like ah which ah a defiance action. What kind of action are you guys running it on?
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, ah this year we switched over to the Defiance Outcast. We did have our own branded action, the Obsidian, for the last couple of years, but ah we've been working, doing some work with Defiance lately. They make make a really good product. We used them ah for the last couple of years on our center fire actions and made the switch to them for our muzzleloader actions this year. and really the It's essentially a single shot center fire action. Yeah, you don't even need the, you don't even need, i mean what's the point of the bolt other than to get the breach block out? I mean, it doesn't really do anything, right? Cause it carries the primer module. Sorry. Yeah. So our primer module is a three or eight case head but piece of brass, that's right prime and deep prime with a large rifle Magnum primer. Uh, so we, the bolt is slotted.
00:41:33
Speaker
Instead of, you know, more of a traditional like M16, mini M16 extractor, you see a a lot of the center fire stuff. There's it like, almost like you're reloading shell holders is what the face of our bolt looks like. So you just drop that module right into the slot.
00:41:49
Speaker
on the bolt to load it but you could you could in theory and we've we've had customers do that you know you could you can spin a center fire barrel onto those actions and have a single shot or if you put a different you could you can run with that bolt with the slot or or put a magnum bolt in if you wanted to run a magnum cartridge But most of our customers aren't doing stuff like that. It's a muzzleloader. It's going to be a muzzleloader. So now I'm looking at it. But the downside of that is why we have to run all of our stuff through an FFL. So your conventional muzzlers can ship direct to you. In most states, ours do have to go to a dealer, and you have to do the paperwork like you're purchasing.
00:42:35
Speaker
a right Yeah, ael I gotcha. Yeah, and I mean I would probably I'm left-handed by it probably spy right-handed muzzle I'm thinking about I'm like, what do I need a left-handed one for I probably bring the value down on the thing Anyways, like I'm not it's not like I'm going to re reload. I mean the more touch reload. It's you're you're standing up yeah exactly and that and Kind of segues into you know the effective range that I like to talk about because energy wise there's seven eight hundred yards in, you know, in, in that bullet running black or an even further with, with some of the smoke, he's energy-wise at 700 yards, this still put up 1500 feet, 1500 pounds. i I don't remember off top of my head, but a thousand, a thousand plus when I think you're like 4,000 foot pounds at the muzzle, it's I'm glad you're talking energy because everyone hates energy right now. They say it's a ah useless term and I love energy because I love that that whole that I love what we talked about earlier where you hit a plate at 600 yards and it moves for the 30, you know, 30 count a dozen with a six five. Yeah. Um, and so I love your talking energy because, well, it's margin for error too. Like, I mean, I get like, you can, you can kill an elephant with a 22, right? If you shoot it in the right spot, but yeah, I mean, having
00:43:42
Speaker
shot quite a few animals through the years, like they definitely die better with, with bigger rounds, especially bigger hole on a marginal, a marginal hit. like I mean, I, I get there's the, you know, part of the argument is maybe you shoot better with a smaller caliber. Yeah. Good luck in hunting situations. Yeah. Exactly. Hiding situations, man. Like so we're not shooting off a ban for shooting and hunting situations. Like Yeah. Stuff happens. That's all this funny thing that, and trust me, I won't shoot things behind the shoulder or right through the shoulder. It's my goal. It was like a, it showed kill zone for a six, five Creedborn. It was like the heart. And then it was like kills out for a 30 nozzle. It was like the whole deer, it was like through they here a whip mag like the whole deer or something like that. Um, yeah which I don't, I don't.
00:44:25
Speaker
recommend at all, but I can't tell you, I've seen some marginal shots with bigger bullets, but I've never shots and stuff where the animals died really quick. yeah where I know if it was a smaller ball, like a 243, it would have not died as fast. like I've seen some stuff, some liver stuff. with tra yeah yeah Yeah, I've just seen, I just, with myself, i my kids all shoot 308s now. for Actually, one's gonna shoot in cream more.
00:44:45
Speaker
um And it's got them one, but it's a bigger bowl. We had a two 43 at first. and I had a couple of rodeos with some pigs and stuff. And I'm like, man, like it's not, you put a muscle breaker on this thing. Doesn't kick any harder with the three. away That doesn't do 43. You know, I, I had, uh, uh, back in the day, Iowa went to, uh, you know, that's kind of how I got into the muzzleers was Iowa was a shotgun muzzleloader only state. And they, uh, so I.
00:45:11
Speaker
Spent a bunch of high school summer at college screwing around with shotguns trying to get a you know, legitimate 200 yard slug gun and I I mean I sorta had one but I mean you're talking 1700 feet per second at the muzzle with low bc bullets and stuff so it's just kind of i wasted a bunch of money and time and all that trying that and then got into the muzzle or thing but i think uh like but probably like i think i was still in college they came out with a late ah january antlerless season for population control and they uh they let us use uh
00:45:48
Speaker
But no ah center fires for that. Oh, so I had i had a 243 Winchester's super short mag i in in on an AR 15 platform. And so you could buy as many tags as you wanted for 13 bucks apiece. So and we are I think party hunting was legal. Maybe anyway, I went down with I'll probably 10 tags in my pocket on this on this yeah know late season drives that you heard it up and stuff. And I had ah I heard like 15 or 20 come running out and I just started
00:46:24
Speaker
You know, it was about a hundred yards and I just started laying down fire. and Well, I thought I was missing them because I they kept just kept, I kept on shooting and they kept on running. And then we, you know, ah the drive ended, walked down there and there was like five dead deer down there scattered out over like a hundred yards. Like it was, I was used to shooting them with a slug gun and just, you know, rolling them. Yeah. And that two 43 on rib shots, they, they kept, you know, they take, it takes them into a small. hole Yeah, I saw something on uh, like instagram or facebook today this guy's got like buckshot and like ah in like a game master like a 870 And these deer running out of him. He's just like crack he drops three in the rough Same video. It was pretty cool man. He talked to him like at his feet du yeah running out of him He just drops three of them with buckshot. It was pretty cool. Look at you shooting coyotes with your deer. Yeah Um, so yeah, so then you run in so you run in
00:47:19
Speaker
Do you talk barrel brands you're using? Oh, yeah, that's fine. I don't know. We use Brux as the primary one we use. We also use some Bartland. Yeah, they're both the dudes. I mean, they make like some of the best barrels. I have my rifle and it just shoots dimes.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah, they they shoot great barrel or build great barrels. I mean, I've there's a lot of good barrel makers out there right now. Brooks Bartland. I haven't used any of them, but I hear a lot of good things about Benchmark. ah My buddies up there preferred. That's actually what my twenty five SST is a is a preferred blank and it.
00:47:55
Speaker
I need to get his number. I want his number because, dude, those guys saved my butt. I got a six. I could borrow from those guys in five weeks. um i I got a barrel from freaking proof research took me eight months.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, they and I was actually talking. Shout out to you guys. Like, thank you. I haven't shot it yet, so i might be pulling that back. But ah from everything I read, it's a phenomenal barrel and five weeks to get a pre-fit barrel for those guys. I was stoked. Yeah. Yeah, they yeah they do good do some good work out. They've really, really got it dialed in. They're starting to do their own the honing early on. They weren't they weren't clapping or honing barrels, but they do all that now and they They shoot right there with, with anything. And they chambered. I mean, it came chambered and ready to go for my terminus. So I'm as ordered it and yeah. Yeah. I need to get ahold of them because it's going to be in like all my ads and everything's we're doing the whole ah here. We can announce it on this podcast. Tricer that the official sponsor of NRL hunter. So there you go. It's going to be in all the all the NRL stuff. um And then what do you run? I'm running on that in Oregon. I'm running Macmillan stock. I think you guys use Macmillan a little bit too, right? Yeah, we do. Mostly we're pretty primarily using Macmillan. They're 20 minutes down the road from us here in Phoenix. And Varian over there is super good guy.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah, very and Josh and talked to this morning. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice if, you know, if there if we need something tweaked or whatever, we just show up and walk in the back door and wander around. So what is your and then what is your like, ah I mean, like the game scout or the game master that we're using, which one are you? Actually, there one came out a couple of years ago, the game board, no game board. And that's a big game board. And yeah, got I think I made the same one I have. It's got like the ah almost like the pistol grip coming into it and then it comes up into it. It's like a really, it's like a conventional stock, but it still like has a little more modulator to which I like. Yeah. The, uh, the, the one I, one I really like and what I just used for my three iron Norma that they just came out with it. I think last fall was the mountain tracker LR and that's got the, the built-in Arca and pick rail.
00:49:53
Speaker
Which they're putting that on my gun that I'm doing right now, but I'm doing like a PRS style stock, how much one it's called, but they're putting they're building in the pick on the end and then the arc on the middle down there for me. That might be that. That's probably the mountain tracker. Could be could be. Yeah. And then I really i mean, if I'm listening this man, build a chassis, come on.
00:50:14
Speaker
Go the times, give me a chassis. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's kind of working your sweet spot, too. Like they've got the carbon fiber if fiberglass dialed in. i And then we do for our chassis build, we primarily use XLR XLR chassis. Yeah. If you have to MDT scattered in there as well. Are you using the matrix or I'm using what is it, the the matrix, which is from M.A.T. Right on my proof. Oh, Masterpiece Arms, M.P.A., maybe. M.P.A., M.P.A., M.P.A., yeah. oh It's actually M.D.T. and M.P.A. I'm using the Masterpiece Arms, the Matrix chassis on my PRS gun. But ah yeah, there's some good chassis out there. Are you guys building primarily um carbon fiber stocks or are you guys doing a lot of chassis stuff, too, because I know it's popular? Yeah, we're quite a few chassis these days. I mean, it's still more carbon fiber and i I'm
00:51:06
Speaker
I'm of, you know, if XLR is listening, don't hate me, but i i've I still like, I feel like I get, I'm more comfortable. I feel like it's more shootable in a hunting gun. Me too. The the carbon fiber, the traditional full size stock. I do love that 25, my 25 SST is on a chassis and I'm, I'm starting to to get real comfortable behind it and shoot it well, but it's still not quite the same. Just.
00:51:34
Speaker
as a ah full-size carbon fiber stock for me. yeah That's my thoughts as well. and Everyone tells me, because I'm shooting a lot of these matches, like you're going to go everything chassis. You're going to go everything chassis. I enjoy having like a stock in my hand. I enjoy that there. I do like the modularity of it. I do like the ability to... Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me the whole like moving your cheek weld up and stuff.
00:51:56
Speaker
But I mean, and once I said my length of pull, I don't need to be like I i mean, like the polls, like the poll for me, like I don't need to move that. just that at all yeah I Like I said, whatever it is like, that's it. Like I don't care about moving. Honestly, having it to move back and forwards. I don't like that. But I do like the idea of like a backpackable rifle. Yeah. But I also like the idea of a rifle that weighs nine pounds. So I'm like a like I kind of like that. My sweet spot is like eight and a half to nine and a half pounds on my rifle because I just know I'm more accurate with that rifle than I am with the six pound gun. So all these guys building all your take on that, like What's your take on a mountain rifle? That ties in with what we were talking about, like magnification and and buying what you actually need, not what you think you want. And yeah yeah, an ultralight gun is not something you really need. I mean, maybe some extreme sheep hunters. But then a lot of those sheep, backpack sheep hunters, I mean, they're they're I think a lot of those guys won't let their guys shoot over three or four hundred yards. Right. So, yeah, a five pound gun is cool for that. But yeah, in real, so you know, real world hunting situations, have fun holding steady and getting stable with a gun that weighs five and a half. I want to lay my rifle down on my backpack and it just kind of sinks in like. Yeah. And I know when I get behind and I pull the trigger, it's on there and then like I know I can
00:53:12
Speaker
I mean, normal always takes me one shot, but I would say other guys could follow up a lot quicker. it's like That light gun, it's all over the place on you. You're trying to make that follow up shot. because I'm a very, I'm like a, my kids, everyone's the same way. You pull the trigger, you but put another one in the chamber, like pull trigger, stay in an animal, do not get up. Don't, you know what I mean? Like that's my Norma, I wanted it. I actually had Dylan there over there. I preferred do i yeah I had him run it with a three 38 core.
00:53:40
Speaker
instead of their normal 30 cal core thickness for the carbon fiber app barrel, just to add a little more weight into it. And I still with I've got the Collis K328 and I'm still only like nine pounds, 12 ounces with it. That's pretty like I mean, those numbers were shooting our own McMillan there. I think they're like 10 and a half. That's pure it's so pretty light. Yeah, it's pretty light. I do have a I don't have a light. I left the suppressor off for Mexico. I do have a Magnus Thunderbeast Magnus. That's going to add about a pound.
00:54:09
Speaker
onto us out, that'll take me up towards that 10 and a half. But yeah, the, especially on those big kickers, like you get, you get down to seven and a half pounds and guys, guys can't even shoot those. Well, Alex, the bench even let, you know, huntington I like a standard, I liked that. So that's where I'm like, uh, my thing more so than the weight is I like how And even then, once I'm hunting, I'm carrying the gun anyways. I don't care about it. ah yeah like Even being able to fold the gun up is kind of cool, but if I'm hunting, it's going to be fully... When I'm hunting, my rifle is never on my backpack ah during the day. In the morning, it is almost dark, but it's always on my shoulder. right like i want to be like I've said too many times where it's like, hey, there he is. yeah You know what I mean? like If I'm having to drop my pack and like unstrap my rifle from my pack, like I have a rifle on a sling. I use a cheap rubber sling. I don't like all these fancy slings out there. There's a cheap rubber sling.
00:54:57
Speaker
Um, is it a slogan? What? Is it slow with that that? That's the brain, the sling I use to a slogan. Uh, probably rubberized it. Yeah. Rubber. Yeah. Cheap rubber sling. I actually, I bought like a leather, like embroidered one from my 30 out six, kind of like Woodstock. I don't know. like um have to well This one, with this leather sling on it, but it still has a regular sling. You know, I always have it on my shoulder. So way if I have to shoot an animal,
00:55:20
Speaker
Like say something happened, I looked to my right, there's a deer at a hundred yards. I could, I could make that happen without having to like, will you start moving moving pack packs and stuff? Like no bueno, right? Like you're the deer. Like I have enjoyed the folding, the folder. Like I think once you, once you have it, you find more useful, like even hopping into the side by side, yeah you fold that buttstock down and you know, stick the muzzle on the, you know, on the floor or whatever. But, um,
00:55:48
Speaker
it It's a little easier getting in and in and out of the of the side by side. but So what are you running on that, like for that mountain gun that you built? Because that's what you built, right? It's essentially ah a mountain gun, right? You're running like a 20 inch barrel?
00:56:02
Speaker
I kind of wish I had done 20 inches. I went 22 on it. I chicken for some, I don't, I don't know why. Isn't it so funny how you tweak out on like barrel length? Like when you build a gun. I should have just gone 20 cause they handle so much nicer with this. I mean, you don't have to use your in California. You don't, you don't have to worry about it.
00:56:21
Speaker
But I can say like, I have like a 24 on my, on my, uh, 24 with a break on my 280. It's just that's about perfect. It's perfect for shooting. Yes. yeah But like going under trees and stuff, like I'm just always catching on stuff. That's what gets me is that like that length on a long rifles. Like yeah I'm a tall dude. I'm six foot. And then you got a thing on my back and I'm like, there's other words for you going under a tree and your barrel stuck to the tree and you're like falling back. You're trying to get your barrel off it. You know what I mean? right that's And that's and actually ah probably the real reason I ended up at 22 is because I'm going to take, both these guns will go down to Mexico with me. And I feel like a 20 inch barrel with a brake just kind of sucks to shoot. So like here in the US, I'll put a suppressor on them and a you know a shorter 20 inch barrel would have been nice. But like it feels like you get sub 22 inches and you just really feel that concussion off the muzzle brake.
00:57:20
Speaker
Dude, my, I just put a video out this week. It's called three for three. And my buddy was shooting a three 38 Lapua and I'm behind him and I can feel it in my chest. He shoots this deer dude. He shoots and you just see like, if you go slow motion, it's just like snow. Just like everywhere. and You can see that 380-grain hammer bolt. You can see it through the air, just cut it the cold air. You're you know you' cold your' high altitude, cold temperatures and just that bolt, just tracking, dude, right into that deer. You can feel it. There's something about a muzzle brake. You can just feel them in your chest. It hurts. like It's like, I don't want to be around that all day long.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah and another thing too, like I know we tweak out it, right? Like you're like me, right? Like dude, barrel twist, right? Like you're like eight and a half, eight, eight and a half. I don't worry. That doesn't really matter. Just go the fastest. Just over twist. That's i's my thing. I over twist. I'm like, I'll go seven, go seven and a half. I think my cream more is seven, right? I do have to chamber a little bit deeper for the bigger bullets.
00:58:19
Speaker
whatever, that's called reaming out a little bit more for the bigger bullets. let throw Yeah, I throwed it in for the bigger, you know, the 142s or whatever I'm going to run. yeah might I might run the Sierras in there. Assuming the Sierras are the burgers, whatever one shoots better. But um like barrel length, people don't understand is like you really don't lose accuracy. You just lose velocity. And fifty and like at a certain point, it really doesn't matter. Like if you say you're building that 25 gun, right? like
00:58:47
Speaker
You, it might fall off too much for you at like a 900, a thousand yards. You're probably not shooting that far. So like barrel length, it really doesn't. It's like this weird thing. We get tweaked out on it. We've even been building some 16 and a quarter inch guns, like six, five, create more than six, five PRC seven. Yeah.
00:59:04
Speaker
I'd love to do a 308, like a folding stock 308 and like an 18 inch barrel. That'd be kind of a fun, fun gun for me. A foot hunting gun. It blew our minds the first time we did the 16 and a quarter inch six, five PRC with, with factory Hornady one 43s, we were still knocking on 2,600 feet per second. Uh, and it, the gun shoots like sub half MOA, right? you Like 2,600 feet per second.
00:59:27
Speaker
just shy, it was in the high 25. So you're building like essentially, and that's what, like a 143 ELDX or something? Yeah, 143 ELDX. They don't know my bullets. Just factory ammo. So you're talking, so basically, if you guys are listening to this, you're basically building a gun, a 600 PRC that shoots this equivalent of a 22 or 24 inch Creedmoor.
00:59:47
Speaker
out of a 16 inch barrel so it's kind of cool. That's one of than the benefits of a PRC. You can drop your barrel link down and have that same velocity as you're getting out of a Creedmoor with a barrel that's eight inches less. and we jake Jake, my sales guy was there at the range with me the day we were shooting that. he put ah we I think weve we forgot to put a pick rail on it. It's on a ah XLR Adam chassis. So we we forgot to put a pick rails. We had to like, just throw it on sandbags and shoot. And he shot like a 0.2 inch center to center three shot group out of it with, uh, it had, I think a three to 18 Mark five HD on it, but like, holy crap. Like this is, this is ridiculous. yeah And he, the guy we built it for a hundred McGaughy, he's a,
01:00:28
Speaker
a guide here in Arizona, New Mexico, but he wanted it with, with the suppressor on the gun that he could fold it all up and still fit it inside of his pack was his goal. Yeah. And that's where those, that's where those strawberries are really coming in, right? And I don't have an option, like you said, of owning a suppressor. I don't understand it, but I mean, I don't know. I understand a lot of things that happen in California. So I'm going to question it. We can't even put water or a fire hydrant, s let alone freaking give a suppressor. So I'm not even going to bitch about that one. At least I still own guns.
01:00:58
Speaker
for now. Yeah. Once Tricer gets big enough, you'll be moving to Texas or Wyoming or something. Dude, it's the church that has me here. Honestly, I'd probably go to Reno um or and or Arizona. like I can't go to Texas. I can't go. Honestly, Wyoming for me is not pretty enough. in law they biggest for the It's pretty, but like in like the towns where, and I'm not moving to Jackson Hole because that's too expensive and like just being like in the middle of the prairie. i'd want to be I want mountains. I don't want to be a like Payson, right? Or somewhere like that, Prescott, or or like somewhere around like Tahoe, Tahoe area, somewhere around mountains, you know what I mean? and And I shouldn't say Wyoming's not pretty for listening to this. Wyoming is beautiful. But like I wouldn't want to be in Casper. I wouldn't want to be like, you know I'd want to be like some more mountainous and a lot of the social events are far from an airport. I want to be i need to be
01:01:44
Speaker
I'm putting a lot of thought on this right now if you were listening to this, but it's never going to happen because I have four, I have four, one kid's out of the house, four kids still in school here, and wife's all letting me leave to involve in the church. Yeah, we got to make a second announcement on this podcast. No, we're not. but because You can tell them how this conversation conversation a lot. late They've actually been looking at houses. um We
Relocation Considerations and Lifestyle Preferences
01:02:01
Speaker
can move anywhere, right? And then just save 14% on taxes. Right.
01:02:05
Speaker
but Or Arizona say, you know, they're only two or two or three percent tax over there. for Yeah pick up down People here though, but yeah but people there but yeah, but if like where you are I can get to Phoenix get to an airport I fly to him I'm flying I'm gone pretty much until May right now Like when my time this podcast comes out already being like three or four States, right? Like it's just like, I've got every weekend. So I need to be somewhere where I can get to an airport and get out of here within 30 minutes, you know, 45 minutes. I don't want to be three hours from an airport, you know, or, or have to pay for a municipal small airport transfer. Like I like direct flights. Like I'm connections are the worst. I don't want to connect. I want to jump on a plane and go you know directly to somewhere. like I'll even drive to LAX sometimes, which is an hour and a half away just to avoid you know a four-hour layover because its for me, it's just like I'd rather just be a direct flight, be done with it, and get off. In your missing flights, things are happening. It's just a pain in the butt. If we did move, it'd have to be close. and It's definitely not going to be Texas, no offense, Texas, but any mountains.
01:03:01
Speaker
and need I need yeah i mountains, I need places on my dirt bikes. I'm just not my thing down there. and and you can You mean there are dirt bikes places in Texas, obviously, but it's not the same as the West. like I want elk. I want somewhere I could be like, gosh, we should be talking about moving. I'm not moving, but like that's what I want. I want a place where I could go. you know Even Idaho is sio is pretty nice i just all up sort up towards Salt Lake City. That's not bad. But yeah, Salt Lake. I mean, Utah is cool. Montana is cool. But, you know, I'd probably be more central, like we're probably more like Arizona or Nevada if I did it, honestly. Yeah, Nevada wouldn't be bad either. But I'm not moving, everybody. So don't go and say that. Don't send this to my wife. Don't want her moving. But it's just it's on my mind. Let's put it that way.
01:03:46
Speaker
yeah it's on my mind i can tell you right now that i'm wearing freaking shorts and a t-shirt and it's like 75 degrees here in san diego so right it's very it's very it's very hard to beat the weather we have here it's just the taxes and the freedom that i don't have that is really hard it's really difficult for me to like to stomach the stuff they do to us here. It's really difficult to stomach like, hey, I can't buy a suppressor. Or hey, i if I buy a gun, it's going to take 10 days to get it. Or now there's 11% tax on everything we buy for firearms. So if I want to buy bullets for $10, it costs me $11.10. If I want to buy a gun for $2,000, that gun now costs me $2,220.
01:04:24
Speaker
on top of Pittman Roberts, on top of sales taxes, up everythingday we're paying like a 35% tax on guns now, right? With all those, all those taxes, right? I mean, you're paying, you're already paying, you know, whatever your sales taxes plus Pittman Roberts, 11% or whatever it is. But now they're talking about, we moved Tricer out of, or Wyoming company, they're talking about taxing all firearm related products, bypass, everything, the actual level percent. grown you see So it's just like, man, like dude, they freaking, it's what's baffling to me at this state is like,
01:04:52
Speaker
We started a war over like a 2% tax, right? Right. Boston Tea Party. And then we're over here just like voting to like, we had a chance, our our gas, like $5 a gallon, we'd be like $2 something, $2 per gallon just for taxes. And we had a chance to remove that and we voted to keep it in. I mean, like this state, it's like, dude, you guys are the most spineless cowards.
01:05:13
Speaker
We were up in Reno for sheep show and we drove up to, I had the fam up there and we took one day and drove up to Lake Tahoe. oh yeah yeah my wife so I started looking at gas stations and I'm like, oh, we're not we not in the USA anymore. Are these te or are these yeah peso prices per liter of gas or something I'm looking at? That does that does always get me in Mexico. I'm like, oh yeah, it's liters.
01:05:38
Speaker
oh Yeah, yeah oh yeah it's ah but yeah, it's that's that's rough. But yeah, Arizona is nice. There's i mean being close to Phoenix. There's there's a lot of people here. I would love to do it just even if it was a couple of years, just so I get my lifetime license.
01:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't going to tell people about that. yeah Well, it's a little non-secret. If you go live there for two years or maybe a year, you can get that lifetime license. And once you leave, you still have lifetime license. So yeah I always start pushing my kid to Arizona. He's going to Oregon for college. I'm like, dude, go to Arizona, bro. You got like nine points, dude. Like we can get you into some really good hunts, do draw some good tags. But I think he's done hunting for like probably at least another six to eight years, which kind of sucks. Like, wow, my hunting buddy's done. I mean, he's still in school, man.
01:06:23
Speaker
And all the more, all the more reason to go to Arizona, get your residency. And then, uh, yeah, when you're done with school, doop his points out of them. Yeah, exactly. Also a little known fact that you can build points for your kids. A lot of states are really cheap and you could split them.
01:06:38
Speaker
Yeah. So especially I know people don't like Oregon, but Oregon, you can build points for your kids every year from nine years old on like 15 bucks across the board points. It's like $5 a species and like $9 for a license. Arizona, it's $5 for a license and then you pay $15 for a tag. So like you can build points for your kids really cheap in Arizona. But that state's been creeping like crazy lately. I can't even, my kids can't even draw a tag. I used to be able to draw a Kuz tag every year. Now they can't draw. I'm probably gonna start putting them for adult hunts and just paying $300 because They've been creepy. Yeah, the odds are better on some of the it's it's way better on adult, hunt especially units. We hunt like drawing the youth tag is like three or four points. I can draw the adult tag every year, you know, every year. There's going to be a lot of animals dying in the youth hunts here in another five years or so. Like Jim, Jim over there at marsupial, Jay Piber and myself, we've all got a crop of like five to seven year olds coming up. Dude, these kids. Awesome, dude. He's always sending me pictures. I love that kid. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought Jay Piber and our buddy you talk all the time.
01:07:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Jay Jay. Well, Jay lives is about a mile from me here. easily Yeah. He was in the shop this morning, but he's super good dude. He's running all Tricer. He's cool. I got all those guys over there. They're running our stuff. I got, I have more Bino horses than than I have to do with marsupial over here. i think I'm going to start wearing three Bino harnesses. I'm going to put like three pairs of Bino's on me and go out there. so So everyone over there had boys. I'm about, I got two girls and then Jimmy's got, well, they all have like one girl thrown in, but then it's a bunch of boys and my girls, but.
01:08:10
Speaker
They're, uh, Jay's kid Boone, man. He's like five or six years old. He's killed a deer. He's killed like, he called an odd ad. He just killed sheep. He killed a Turkey there. That kid is just hammering, bro. Yeah. He's this cold blooded killer. I picked him up real early on the pro staff and get my hat and stuff. I told him sign.
01:08:29
Speaker
um sam for Yeah, lifetime contract dude, like though I know he's gonna be a killer so I just picked up Pyburn's kids and I picked up Cody Rich's kid too because he's gonna be a killer too. It's like, Wade, you're on with Pro Staff. They all love you because he's a dinosaur company, you know? Oh yeah. I'm trying to get, I need to get Jim to do me the, I want to do the dino harness. Is that the bino harness? Yeah. I do like a Tricer collab with our Tricer camo and like the dino harness dude, it'd be kind of cool.
01:08:52
Speaker
That would be, so I like it. Yeah, kids love dinosaurs. Dude, so you're building some of the best rifles in the West, hands down, and definitely the best
Arrowhead Rifles Recognition and Social Engagement
01:09:00
Speaker
muzzle on the West. I don't think that's even like a thing anymore. Like, it's just, if you want to get a phenomenal muzzle at a rifle, you're going to get it from Arrowhead Rifles, and it's just known. Where can we find you guys? How can we help you? How can we support you? What do we got with that?
01:09:16
Speaker
Yeah, I mean we're we're on all the places, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Arrow, under ArrowheadRifles website arrowheadrifles.com. We'll be at the Hun Expo. out Will this drop before the Hun Expo? No, probably not. Yeah, that's probably the end of the month.
01:09:34
Speaker
Yeah, we we do, right now we do sheep show and the hunt and expo for the two trade shows we do and the, uh, the Iowa gear classic and in March, uh, as well. So well we'll be at those shows, but yeah, we're, we're on Instagram, like I said, all those places. Uh, if you have more questions, uh, probably YouTube is the best place to start. We've been putting out some, you know, how to videos, informational videos, if you're interested in learning more about.
01:09:59
Speaker
high-performance muzzle loading and what our stuff looks like exactly. I can tell you, I'm going to be putting in some muzzleloader tags, and that's going to be the, like when I draw it, that's what I'm going to be just buying one of those rifles. Yeah, we'll get you squared away. I'm just going to force myself into it, like, oh, I got it now. I might as well buy the rifle. Got to do it. But dude, Luke, thank you so much. You had rifles, dude. All the big name dudes are running the Luke stuff. He's just building the best rifle over there in Arizona.
01:10:26
Speaker
So if you're looking for a .45 caliber, high performance, 600 yard, open sight, muzzle to rifle, arrowhead rifles. If you're looking for just a regular rifle, arrowhead rifles, they're building great stuff. Luke, stoked to have you on, bro. Let's do it again, huh? Sounds good. Yep. Looking forward to it. Oh, I want to pause. I don't know how to stop that thing. What the heck? Let's make it Peter Bruggen. Oh, we're stuck on together, Luke. Oh, we're stuck. What the heck, man?
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:10:56
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Tricer Podcast. Do us a favor and like and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Give us a follow on Instagram and Facebook at TricerUSA and go and check out all of our innovative gear at www.tricerusa.com. Until next time, shoot straight, have fun, and always put God first.