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14- Can Erin Interest You In...Internal Family Systems?
18 Plays21 days ago
On this week's episode we have Erin Boerio, the therapist with oh so many interests we can't wait to have her back for another topic!
She tells us about Internal Family Systems (IFS), a very cool modality with a not so cool name.
What is it? How did Erin get into it? Can it uncover why we throw tantrums like our 4 year old self?
Side topics touch on include: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), blending (not the makeup kind), the 8 C's of Self, parts, protectors, exiles, Dick Schwartz, unburdening, an IFS cruise.
How will Charlotte and Patti and all of their parts react to the homework? What homework will they choose to do?
Lose sleep? Avoid? Make an indecent proposal? Tune in to our follow-up episode to find out. Subscribe/follow our show to ensure you don't miss an episode!
Logo design: Marielle Martin
Song: Upbeat Drums with Stomps and Claps by music_for_video
BlueSky: @canweinterestyouin.bsky.social
Instagram: https:www.instagram.com/canweinterestyouin/#
Email us: CanWeInterestYouIn@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Listener Invitation
00:00:00
Speaker
You know that thing you love that your friends and family don't want to hear about anymore? Tell it to us, Patty and Charlotte. We want to learn all about your weird and wild obsessions or your perfectly normal hobbies that you've taken just a little too far.
00:00:15
Speaker
We want to dabble in your curious interests. Can we interest you in today's episode?
Guest Introduction: Erin Borio
00:00:34
Speaker
Charlotte. Hey, Patty. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm really happy to have with me my friend Erin Borio, who used to we used to work together, and now she has her own private practice, and she's going to tell us about something very exciting that I cannot wait to hear about.
00:00:58
Speaker
She actually has many, many interests. So, that' the way you know, I think we should have her on in the future for for more interest. Yes. But this going be a great one. Erin.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hello. Hi. Hi, Erin. Hi, Patty. Nice to meet you. You too. I love that you guys are in the library with ah electric guitars behind you. There's even like a mandolin or something up on this wall. It's really neat.
00:01:25
Speaker
Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So what are you
What is Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy?
00:01:28
Speaker
going to tell us about? Which of your many, many interests? So I am going to talk about internal family systems therapy.
00:01:35
Speaker
ah Okay. Okay. So tell us first what internal family systems therapy is. Okay. So I don't like the name because it confuses people. It confused me when I very first came across it um because I would get emails at the at the ah mental health center where Charlotte and I used to work together offering a consultation group for internal family systems, but because it said family systems, I figured it was about family therapy, which I don't really do anymore.
00:02:07
Speaker
So anyway, internal family systems is a a theory and a method of therapy, um but not exclusively therapy, I guess, because you can do it even if you're not a therapist, you can kind of do it on yourself.
00:02:25
Speaker
ah that is based on the idea that every single person has a mind or a personality that is made up of a bunch of different parts, that this is totally normal and healthy, um that all of the parts are trying to be helpful.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah. um That they like acquire roles over time based on like what you need and what's going on with you in your life and how the different other parts that are already existence are interpreting things that are going on. So they're all trying to be protective, um but you encounter problems when parts get extreme in the way that they're trying to be helpful or parts get... um like in conflict with each other about the way they're trying to be helpful.
00:03:16
Speaker
um Or like, if you have a part that's like, still stuck on the idea that you're six and the best way to get what you need is to throw a tantrum, then when you're like 36, you can be throwing the adult version of a tantrum and then wondering why it's not working, or maybe it is working. And that's why it gets reinforced, right? Because the Sometimes parts kind of get stuck in the past and they don't realize that you've grown up and now you have all these other coping skills and resources and um and power to do things differently. And you haven't learned how to do those things differently because you've kept doing the thing that you've done all along.
00:03:56
Speaker
Wow.
The Concept of 'Self' in IFS
00:03:57
Speaker
yeah I am so excited about this because i I am a therapist, but internal family systems is one of the the types of like interventions that I've never learned that much about. it I don't do it. I don't practice it. But I've heard Aaron talk about it and it make it sound very exciting.
00:04:20
Speaker
so Okay. So is it kind of like an approach like EMDR would be or... like talk cognitive behavioral, or is it, or is it something that you use as a tool within that?
00:04:36
Speaker
It's, it's more of a talk therapy than something like EMDR or brain spotting or like biofeedback or something like that. Um, I, I use it in conjunction with EMDR quite a bit.
00:04:50
Speaker
Um, but it is, it is its own thing. it does involve a lot of talking, but, uh, I actually came to it through emdr what it is but it is like a separate ah separate thing it's you know two people talking to each other.
00:05:07
Speaker
i as the therapist, in addition to just like providing a little bit of of guidance about what we're doing and why, um um mostly provide prompts for the person to ask their own parts questions and like let them know things.
Protector and Exile Parts in IFS
00:05:24
Speaker
um And then I also like kind of, I let them know if I feel like they are blended with one of their parts. Okay, what does blended mean? Okay, so this requires a little bit of a background, I guess, as to the, the I guess we'll call it ah the physics of the internal system.
00:05:43
Speaker
okay So according to IFS, you have a self and you have parts. So the self is, kind of like the core essence of your being. Everybody has a self, no matter how how much like psychic damage you have sustained throughout the course of your life from any number of traumas and that kind of thing, there is always a self.
00:06:05
Speaker
So the self possesses the eight C's of self. And I'm going to be embarrassed here because I can never remember all eight of them. umla But it includes qualities like courage, clarity, connection, um curiosity, compassion.
00:06:24
Speaker
And I, again, i can't remember all of them, but there are eight C's. And um there are a lot of people who, who kind of think of the self in a very spiritual way that it's,
00:06:37
Speaker
that that it's kind of like transcends the individual and it's kind of connected to a greater sort of universal whatever. That's not ah how everybody thinks of it. That's not like necessary to practice the model.
00:06:50
Speaker
I'm not so sure how I feel about it myself, but I definitely, you know, have that belief that everybody has a self and the self has these qualities and the self has the capacity to heal the system with a little bit of, you know, outside help.
00:07:06
Speaker
So the work of IFS is that self developing relationships with parts one-on-one and um making sure that these parts know who the self is and develop trust in the self so that those parts will agree to make changes in how they work.
Unburdening Process in IFS
00:07:25
Speaker
And the different kinds of parts are like, basically have protector parts, which can either be proactive or reactive. And then you have exiles So an exile is ah kind of part that essentially is holding on to a lot of the pain and the wounding from you know, any number of different things that can happen to you in your life.
00:07:52
Speaker
You know, it can be and overwhelming, you know, hurt. It can be like shame, ah you know, a belief about yourself, like I'm not good enough or something like that.
00:08:04
Speaker
And, So that is not the essence of the part. um It is those kind of ah strong emotions and beliefs are considered burdens that the part is carrying.
00:08:17
Speaker
So what we want to do is ah develop a relationship between the self and the exile. um And we go through ah process called the healing steps to help the exiled part unburden itself from whatever kind of burdens it's been carrying, which then allows it to kind of be this light, often playful because exiles are often burdened when they're very, very young.
00:08:45
Speaker
um This, you know, this like force that can essentially take up a different role in your internal system instead of being like weighed down.
00:08:57
Speaker
And then once an exile is unburdened, all of the protector parts that have been like doing all their various kinds of work to stop that exiled part from, you know, getting all up in its feelings and making the system unmanageable with, you know, shame or depression or whatever.
00:09:18
Speaker
um Those protector parts are like, oh, I don't have to do this anymore.
Visualizing Parts in Therapy
00:09:23
Speaker
Cool. I can do something else or I can just like relax a little bit in how I'm doing it because um it's not as high stakes anymore or I can just retire and chill in the system and they get to make choices. Parts always get to make choices. We can't direct them to do anything.
00:09:46
Speaker
It's a very collaborative process where we ask and make requests and we give them information. And then a part decides what but to do. Wow.
00:09:57
Speaker
So if they can retire, but does that mean that like when we will always maintain at least as many parts as we have at our current state, like we may gain more parts, but we don't lose parts or.
00:10:18
Speaker
You know, It's still not totally clear to me. And um I'm not sure if even like Dick Schwartz who came up with IFS could answer that confidently. sure um I think the overall belief is that you are essentially born with a certain amount of parts and parts take up roles as opposed to parts being created anew. But and I I'm not actually sure what the what the theory about that is.
00:10:54
Speaker
And then different people have different numbers of parts? Yeah. And there's no, there's no like... if you have too few parts or too many parts that's unhealthy or anything like that. It's really just about how how the parts all function individually and together.
00:11:15
Speaker
So there are the protectors and the exiles. Are there others or do you like actually give them names like Mary or...
00:11:27
Speaker
sassy or I don't know. here Yeah, yeah. a lot of A lot of people do give names or at least titles to their parts. ah I encourage people, I mean, we often start with a title or a descriptor. So like the inner critic or the anxious one or something like that.
00:11:50
Speaker
Although like it's nice to ask the part at some point what it wants to be called. so you're not sort of accidentally insulting it um or or having a really narrow idea of of what it is, as opposed to how the part thinks of itself.
00:12:06
Speaker
um That helps build like the trust and sense of respect um by getting it you know its or her or his or their, because parts can have ah can have gender.
00:12:21
Speaker
and the gender is not always matching the gender of the, of the person or the self.
Erin's Journey and Training in IFS
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I saw that you had posted Aaron, a photo on like blue sky or something where you had like a lineup of stuffed animals that were representing parts.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yes. Um, I was working with a client yesterday, um, on, on video. Um, I was doing a telehealth session and I had,
00:12:51
Speaker
It was our first time doing the IFS work with this particular client. So sometimes people really, really get into their own system really quickly. And and I introduced the idea of IFS to them and they'll be like, oh my God, that's how I've always thought about my brain anyway. This is perfect. And then for other people, it's like, oh, okay, that makes sense. I could get into that.
00:13:14
Speaker
And then other people can sometimes be like, that sounds crazy and I don't like it. um But so when I'm introducing it to somebody or if we're like in a really sort of abstract place or where there are a lot of parts, um you know,
00:13:33
Speaker
having relationships around a particular issue, I'll use a visual aid just to keep track of all the different parts we're talking about. yeah um So, I mean, it's great to have the client make choices about what represents what so it makes sense to them.
00:13:51
Speaker
But since it was the first time, I didn't want to just have her be like, hey, look around your home office and find a thing that represents this anxious part or whatever. So I grabbed, I have a a beanie baby penguin, the green beanie baby named Erin that's like Irish, and then an alpaca made from alpaca wool that a friend brought from Peru or something that I just have adorning my office. So I grabbed them off the shelf and held them up to the screen and said, all right, of these three, and which one feels the most like this part? And then when another part came in, it's like, oh, this one's
00:14:32
Speaker
you know, frustrated with the anxious one, which one feels like the one who's frustrated just to help her keep track and to help me keep track. Honestly, there are also decks of illustrated cards that you can buy. I've got one of those decks and they're just interpretive illustrations that some people can, you know, sort through and find them particularly and evocative, a representative of certain parts, energies and be like, Oh, this is the one that is like the exile that's holding my shame from being like too much as a child or something.
00:15:14
Speaker
That's cool. So it's just images. it's not like, no, not actually not necessarily. um I mean, parts can show up in a ton of different ways. Like I don't always get clear visuals of my parts personally. um Like I might feel them in my like different sensations in my body.
00:15:35
Speaker
um Sometimes I'll get a part where it's, it's not so much a visual, but a gesture. So like a finger wag kind of thing, or like an arms folding in front of the chest or something like that. So it can be a memory, it can be a visual, it can be a somatic sensation, a flood of emotion.
00:15:55
Speaker
You know, I, like whenever I go inside and like work with my own parts, I often cry because there's just different parts that the hold of a lot of emotions. So, you know, sometimes just that sensation in the throat and eyes of being about to cry.
00:16:11
Speaker
Like, oh, okay, well that there's a part showing up. And sometimes it's just us like us a ah sense that it's hard to describe, but you're just like, I just know I feel something.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah. Talked about unburdening, like unburdening of the exiles before. and when you were telling me about it, I was thinking, I really want to be unburdened. I don't know of what, but it just sounds amazing. Kind of cathartic.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Can you tell us like, how would, how do you unburden an exile? Yeah. um I'm going to back a little bit and talk about how I got trained.
00:16:52
Speaker
Oh yeah. Do you want to tell us your origin story? I will. Yes. I'd love to tell you my origin story. So in 2018, I got trained in EMDR and Part of EMDR training is that you, well, once you finish the training, it is recommended that you have ongoing consultation with a certified consultant in order to make sure that you are using the skills and the you know the um conceptualization you know correctly.
Personal Experience with IFS Unburdening
00:17:21
Speaker
And the consultant that was provided by the agency that we used to work for was an EMDR consultant and an IFS consultant. So she started bringing a lot of IFS concepts and language into our consultations.
00:17:38
Speaker
I think eventually so much so that a lot of EMDR people who were not interested in IFS were like, I'm not getting what I need out of this. But I loved it. It was great for me because it just made sense to me.
00:17:52
Speaker
like i i started my you know postgraduate work in 2010. And I've you know come across a lot of different theories and and modalities and methods and you know making various levels of of sense or resonance with with how I think about people.
00:18:12
Speaker
And sometimes I'll get really excited about something and that'll last for a week and then it'll just not really be that interesting anymore. But I was introduced to IFS in fall 2018 And I never stopped being obsessed with it. So it's just like, it's in my bones now.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's how I think about people, even if I'm not actively doing therapy at all, or even if I'm not thinking, even if I'm not like actually practicing IFS with a client, I'm thinking about their parts.
00:18:44
Speaker
So I got introduced in 2018. I took a like a one day training in late 2019
00:18:53
Speaker
And then also at the agency, I joined the IFS consultation group, which had about a six week psychoeducational component where we learned a lot of the basic information.
00:19:07
Speaker
And then there was an ongoing weekly consultation group where we would bring cases and, and you know, talk about how to approach it and et cetera, et cetera. The actual IFS Institute approved training to complete level one of IFS to say that like, I am an IFS trained therapist, not certified.
00:19:30
Speaker
That's a different thing. IFS trained is really hard to get into. It's exploding in popularity. And there are only, you know, so many people who are officially trained to train.
00:19:45
Speaker
So there are, well, through the IFS Institute, there used to be lotteries where you would just put your name in for a particular training and pray. So I joined a bunch of those, never got in.
00:19:59
Speaker
But then ah colleague in my IFS, no, in my EMDR consultation group, told me about a program that is IFS Institute approved through the Central Connecticut State University,
00:20:16
Speaker
And there it's like a professional development continuing education school or program or whatever. And they don't have a lottery. They just have an old fashioned wait list.
00:20:29
Speaker
So got on the wait list and over a year later, I finally, you know, my name came up. um So last September through February, I did a it was two and a half days. So like Friday, Saturday and half of Sunday.
00:20:45
Speaker
one weekend a month for six months. Virtual training, there were people from all over the country and a couple in Canada um who were participating in this training with you know the lead trainer and assistant trainer and a bunch of like program assistants.
00:21:04
Speaker
And it was lectures and it was um watching demonstrations and then experiential practice among us learners. We were encouraged to get into like local groups where we could practice with each other outside of the training.
00:21:21
Speaker
um There are actually four of us in my cohort who live in the Denver-Boulder area, so we actually got together in person a couple of times. Oh, how nice. I'm doing ongoing one-on-one practice with one of them, and up with another one, um trying to get a peer consultation group going.
00:21:38
Speaker
So yeah, I finally, finally got level one trained earlier this year. that yeah And that's level one. Level
IFS Popularity and Accessibility
00:21:48
Speaker
one. Right. Like how many levels are there? Three.
00:21:50
Speaker
Okay. And it's not, it's not necessarily that like if you're level three trained, you're better or something. It's just that like level two trainings either, well, level two and level three both offer kind of more specialized trainings.
00:22:07
Speaker
So I think there's like a level two training about how to use it with couples okay or, um you know, addiction or something like that. Or there's just level twos that are a little bit more in depth, um but still kind of an overall view of just like how to use items.
00:22:26
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So I love to get level two trained, but um they're expensive. So I'm going to have to wait until I'm in a position to do a little more, but I got time.
00:22:37
Speaker
All right. Yeah. So you were going to tell us about the unburdening. The unburdening. Yes. So my unburdening happened in the context of my training.
00:22:49
Speaker
I signed up for one of the demonstrations. So I got picked. Just, you know, what they do is, all right, we're going to do a demo with either the lead trainer or the assistant trainer.
00:23:04
Speaker
And it's like, okay, ah think of a number between 1 and 30 and private message it to this person and whoever, you know, comes closest to the number that that person was thinking of.
00:23:14
Speaker
you know, just to pull a name out of a hat basically. Um, so I got picked to do a demo with the lead trainer, uh, who's got like 30 some years of experience in, in IFS and in, in the space of an hour, maybe a little bit more, um having never, you know, this was our first one-on-one, you know, contact other than me asking a couple of questions, uh, during the training. Uh, he didn't know hardly anything about me, but, um, just,
00:23:45
Speaker
following what I said was going on with me and what I wanted to focus on. um you know He observed the protectors that were coming up and then started to get a feel for what exile might be getting protected by the protector. And um then led me to my exile. So, you know made sure that I was all up in my self energy and not blended with a part I never explained blending.
Practicing IFS Independently
00:24:17
Speaker
so blending
00:24:19
Speaker
So blending is when one of the protectors or the exiles is essentially in the driver's seat of your system instead of instead of being led by yourself. So when I'm anxious about whether my heartburn is actually you know a cardiac problem or when I'm like really deeply grieving um Like my dad who died a year and a half ago or when I'm really pissed off about something I'm blended with a part So so unblending is just getting that space, you know the differentiation So that you you can be aware of the part or even have an interaction with the part But it's not like all up on top of you anymore.
00:25:02
Speaker
I'm pulling all the strings so he got my self into relationship with the exile that was coming up at the time.
00:25:15
Speaker
And it's a process of you get to know the exile. So like, you know, what are you holding on to and where did that come from? And what do you want me to know about this burden or what it's been like for you to hold on to this, this whole time? So that's called witnessing. So once you've witnessed everything that the exile wants to share with you, you ask if it is interested in, in letting go of this burden that it's been holding. And if it says yes, then you say, okay.
00:25:48
Speaker
And you ask, what do you want to give it up to? So it's usually an element, you know, so earth, water, fire, air, or like light, magic, essentially anything.
00:26:00
Speaker
So, you you know, do you want to I think, I think my exile put it, you know, essentially like ground the burden up and put it into fireworks shells and watch the fireworks explode.
00:26:14
Speaker
So then after the unburdening is done, then um you ask the part if there's anything it wants to invite into itself to fill up that space that the burden was occupying.
00:26:29
Speaker
So positive qualities like peace or ah courage or something like that. So then it can invite things in and then you can essentially be like, all right, where do you wanna be now? Like, what do you wanna be doing now that you're not holding onto all this crap anymore? So it can can be like, oh, I just wanna play
IFS Cruises and Retreats
00:26:50
Speaker
or, you know, so, and then once the once the exile is is, you know, reintegrated into your system and it's a new role,
00:27:03
Speaker
The protectors that have been watching over it, you check in with the protectors and be like, hey, did you notice what just happened there? Were you watching? Are you aware that this part is no longer in need of these services that you've been providing all this time?
00:27:17
Speaker
So then the protectors can can say, oh, cool, I don't have to do that anymore. And then you can be like, what would you like to do instead? And that's you know another process.
00:27:30
Speaker
And how did it feel? Um,
00:27:37
Speaker
it was really emotional getting to the exile and then a certain amount of the witnessing was pretty emotional, but then the process of like the unburdening and the integration just felt really like, like peaceful and, um,
00:28:00
Speaker
It was just really positive and and and nice. And um it's it's funny. Because it happened, it's almost like it was erased.
00:28:14
Speaker
So my sense of it is like, I remember that it happened, but I don't even have that much emotion about it anymore because I've already been unburdened of it. um But yeah, I remember the the integration part was very, i don't know, it was kind of like a,
00:28:30
Speaker
it was kind of like peaceful, but also joyful. And it was definitely a little, you know, it was a little kid. So I think there were hugs, you know, in my mind, of course.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It was really neat. um And do you still feel the benefits from that unburdening? Yes. Yes, I do.
00:28:53
Speaker
um It's not quite as, it's not quite as like, completely you know dramatic as i as I guess I would have hoped, but yes, I do feel the difference. And IFS seems like really popular right now. I've been hearing about it a lot, but I recently saw something that I want to ask you about because I get these you know continuing education emails and one of them was for an IFS cruise.
00:29:23
Speaker
Have you heard about this? Not about the cruise, but I've definitely heard about like retreats and things. Okay. So then, but it's for practitioners or anybody like that kind of thing.
00:29:34
Speaker
Okay. I don't know. I'm just, it's probably, it was a CEU email. So I'm just like wondering what goes on there and just so curious, but also wanted to let you know in case you want to go.
00:29:47
Speaker
Okay. And do you have to buy a ticket for each of your family members.
00:29:56
Speaker
Bring in all my
Finding and Choosing IFS Therapists
00:29:58
Speaker
protectors. Oh my color I've never gone on a cruise and I definitely wouldn't want my first one to be like super intense, emotional journey. That's much with a bunch of strangers.
00:30:10
Speaker
oh Also, that's just, if I was going to if I was going to plop a lot of money on an IFS thing, it would be a level two training. Um, But yeah, I, there, I mean, there definitely are IFS like retreats and events that are probably not only open to practitioners, but anybody who's got a certain amount of experience because one of the program assistants in my training is not actually a licensed therapist. He's like a coach, a life coach, but IFS training is open to non-practitioners, you know, non-practitioners.
00:30:47
Speaker
you know, non-therapists and social workers and psychologists. um It's harder to get in now because the IFS Institute is prioritizing, you know, getting actual mental health professionals into trainings because there's so much demand, but there is room for like nurse practitioners and clergy even, you know, like people who who want to provide that kind of guidance to other people just really want to use it for themselves, honestly.
00:31:18
Speaker
You mentioned that it's something that you can do on yourself. Yeah. and So can you tell us more about that? um I haven't had a lot of success with it, but I have clients who will do a lot of independent sort of meditative work on their own parts in between sessions, which really accelerates the work that we're doing together. Wow. um So yeah, I mean, if you can, if you can focus your self inside on your own, which, you know people who meditate already are you know, are pretty good at that.
00:31:55
Speaker
And you can pick out which parts you're noticing and if you can notice when you're blended and unblend yourself, then there's so much that you can do on your own.
00:32:08
Speaker
I am not great at that. i need somebody to track with me and and like notice those things with me and remind me what I should be saying and asking to my parts.
00:32:20
Speaker
um And even, even, Dick Schwartz says, like, I can do a lot, but I can't unburden my own exiles. And, you know, he's the head honcho of the whole thing. So, but yeah, there absolutely is a lot of stuff that you can do on your own, even if it's just noticing that you are blended or that a part is having a lot of influence over your, you know, the way that you're thinking or your emotional state and you can try to say, oh, hey, I noticed you there.
00:32:51
Speaker
Can we check in about this later? Right now, I need you to like, take a step back and let me do this. Whether that's like, I'm going into an interview, and you're really nervous, or I'm trying to sleep, and you won't shut up, or, you know, whatever the thing is, that it's kind of getting in the way of.
00:33:11
Speaker
Do you have to, because like, I know for myself, i avoid going into my head because there are certain things that I'm like, oh, I know I'm avoiding you. You know, like that's why I have podcasts playing all day long. You know, like i do not ever want to have my own thoughts. So, or be aware of my own thoughts.
How Does EMDR Integrate with IFS?
00:33:30
Speaker
So do you have to A, be in a space where like obviously unblended, but also where you feel like ready for it? And do you have to talk to that exile about exactly what that shame or what that pain is related to? or can you just kind of acknowledge it and talk?
00:33:53
Speaker
Can you just talk around it? Can you just avoid it? Well, if you're, if you are not feeling ready to witness the exile, then that's because there is a part of you that is afraid of what will happen if you do.
00:34:07
Speaker
It's not yourself that's unwilling. Okay. good Good distinction there. Yes. Yeah, because the self is courageous, the self is compassionate and connected. And, you know, that happens a lot. if If somebody, you know, somebody's got a protector that says this isn't safe to do, I'm scared of what will happen if I go there.
00:34:28
Speaker
So then you just work with that part as long as that takes until that part says, okay, I trust you. So we don't, we never go right to the exile. I mean, even if an exile pops up in a session and is like, ah, listen to me, I need to be, you know, whatever. We'll say, okay, it's lovely to meet you.
00:34:49
Speaker
and want to talk. Hold on though for a second. I will come back to you, but we got to check in with the protectors first. Because if the protectors are over on the side being like, no, this is a terrible idea. Something disastrous is going to happen. And you talk to the exile anyway.
00:35:04
Speaker
you can have backlash from those protectors later on. So that might be, you know, rage, substance use, isolation, you know, whatever that protector does to try to keep, you know, try to keep you essentially from going there. Okay.
00:35:26
Speaker
Okay. Or dealing with the emotions from going there. So like, ah, God, we got into all the shame. Now I have to, you know, eat myself into a coma or something. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
00:35:38
Speaker
Good job, Erin.
00:35:42
Speaker
I see a lot of patterns, you know. I take a shot and it's like, okay, there was a chance that was going to be accurate. The heart talking to you as you're trying to fall asleep is also hitting me.
00:35:57
Speaker
but I was going that sounds like Charlotte. It's me. And yeah, i I feel like I'm the opposite of you, Patty. I'm like all up in my thoughts all the time.
00:36:09
Speaker
And if something's going to take me out of my thoughts, I'm like, no, I'm in them. Wow. And you might have like an overthinker or an you know an analyzer oh hell yeah who's trying to do the work like for yourself. Yeah. Uh-huh.
00:36:25
Speaker
tell me more about stuff
00:36:29
Speaker
That's definitely something I do a lot with clients where I'll speculate. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But, you know, if they're if they're like, oh, my God, yes. OK, let's go there if you're ready.
00:36:42
Speaker
So why do they call it? family? Do you think it's because it's kind of like a family where it's like it can be dysfunctional? There are different roles that everybody, somebody plays.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yes. so So Richard Schwartz, Dick Schwartz was originally trained um in, you know, among a bunch of other ways of doing therapy and family systems therapy, which is, you know, a family therapy method, or at least a theory of understanding family systems um that focuses on how how the whole system works and the dynamics inside of the system and the fact that because these dynamics and these roles tend to be pretty, um i don't wanna say static, but persistent, let's say, whenever a role changes or a person starts doing their role differently, it changes the whole thing. It changes all of the dynamics that they're and then out of necessity,
00:37:40
Speaker
the dynamics between all of those other people change. The whole system is thrown out of homeostasis and then has to a adjust. So internal family systems is just that with all of your parts.
00:37:51
Speaker
Got it. Yeah. So it makes sense why they call it that, but it's also confusing if you don't already know that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then can you tell us, um I know I brought up EMDR, but can you tell us what does it stand for? And then is part of why you're...
00:38:10
Speaker
you use that with, you know, the internal family systems, because it's kind of like that being able to like almost unburden like physically without the words part or, or how do those two kind of work well together in your opinion?
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah. So EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. oh um Eye movement is not a necessity for how the um EMDR works, but it is one of the ways to do the like bilateral
Resources for Learning IFS
00:38:45
Speaker
stimulation of both hemispheres of your brains.
00:38:48
Speaker
So it can be eye movement. It can be auditory with like a tone playing in one ear and then the other, it can be tactile where you are either tapping on yourself or someone's tapping on you or or you're holding, um, these little buzzers that buzz.
00:39:03
Speaker
So EMDR, I think of as the, um, In a lot of ways, it is faster, but a little more violent than IFS, because it's kind of like a roller coaster ride through the traumatic material that is stuck.
00:39:25
Speaker
And you're watching it. It's not, you know, it's not happening. Like, we're not looking for you to relive. We want you to be in the room, safe wherever you are, but like aware of what that traumatic material is that you're processing through.
00:39:39
Speaker
but because it's just kind of, you know, you follow where your brain takes you and it can be really intense.
00:39:48
Speaker
IFS is often slower, but it's gentler because you're asking for permission to, you know, to talk about certain things and you're taking the time to help a part be a little bit less escalated about it before, you know, getting into it and moving on.
00:40:04
Speaker
So I think there are probably a lot of ways to make them work together, I end up marrying them a lot. I, um, before I start EMDR with someone, we'll do a check with their whole internal system to say, there's anybody in here who doesn't feel safe starting this let's address that concern.
00:40:28
Speaker
And then if all parts are on board, even if they're like, Oh God, I know this is going to suck, but yes, like, let's do it. That's fine. Um, It's very normal in in the process of EMDR to get a little bit stuck somewhere, to have blocked processing.
00:40:44
Speaker
If you are EMDR trained but not IFS trained, there are things that are suggested for you to do to get past that block. I have almost forgotten what they are because it doesn't make sense to me to use them because what I will do is figure out what part is saying, no, we cannot pass go and collect $200 here.
00:41:02
Speaker
So then I stop and we work with whatever part it is that is blocking the processing. Okay. Okay. So that's, I mean, that's the main way that I kind of use them together. Or, you know, if a part in EMDR, they train you about a client may have an ab reaction, which is basically an emotional response to traumatic material that is like out of control or dysregulated.
00:41:30
Speaker
um So if somebody is really, really escalated by something that comes up in EMDR, then I will focus on whatever part that is that is, you know, triggered or activated and use, you know, more of an IFS focus to help de-escalate that and have that part feel safe again and see how that part and its other, you know, potentially related parts feel about proceeding with the reprocessing.
00:42:00
Speaker
I'm fascinated by this and very excited to learn more. So what is our homework assignment? I'm nervous. Oh my goodness. I mean, oh i didn't. I know. I just said like, oh, I don't like to ever think about things and don't want to go to feelings. I'm so excited about this though. What am I going to do?
00:42:18
Speaker
I desperately want to know what it's like. don't know if I feel it. Yeah. I didn't think enough about the homework. So there's, I mean, you have options, right? um You can, find an IFS therapist, do therapy.
00:42:32
Speaker
um There is a really incredible book. I mean, there are lots of books about
Episode Conclusion and Future Invitations
00:42:40
Speaker
IFS that are for either professionals or laymen, but ah one that just came out a couple of years ago that I recommend to a lot of people is called No Bad Parts.
00:42:50
Speaker
It is written for laypeople by Dick Schwartz. it' It's actually got a foreword by Alanis Morissette, who did IFS therapy herself and found it really transformative.
00:43:01
Speaker
Wow. It's great. um And it is it basically explains how all of it works, and it has exercises for you to follow. Oh, nice.
00:43:12
Speaker
So there's a book. It has an accompanying workbook. There are also ah meditations that you can try, like on YouTube, or there's a...
00:43:24
Speaker
a meditation app called insight timer that has just, you know, ridiculous amounts of meditations, but they have a bunch that are IFS specific. Actually a bunch of those are done by the coach who was a PA in my, in my training.
00:43:41
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. Tim, Tim, I can't remember his last name. Yeah. ah So there's that there are books and podcasts and meditations and,
00:43:54
Speaker
therapy. So you can, you know, dip your toe in or dive in according to whatever suits your level of willingness. but Is it hard to find an IFS therapist who's trained? Like, where is there a place to go to find just... Yes. um So the IFS Institute has a directory of people who are, you know, varying levels of IFS trained or certified.
00:44:24
Speaker
um I'm actually in the process. I think I'm in the directory already. Additionally, you can, I mean, if you use a directory like Psychology Today or Therapy Den or something like that, there's often an option to look for a certain kind of therapy and IFS is often one of them.
00:44:43
Speaker
Now, if somebody says that they do IFS, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're level one trained. It just might mean that they're kind of like familiar with it or have taken ah ah smaller amount of training. So you'd have to ask, you know, what their familiarity with is, you know, what level of training do they have?
00:45:01
Speaker
Level one is all you technically need to take someone through the, and you know, the entirety of of, you know, protector relationships and exile unburdening. Yeah. Levels two and three are,
00:45:13
Speaker
or like extra and refinement, but it doesn't necessarily mean the person's like better at it necessarily. um And then there's the question of, does that person like take my insurance or whatever, which is a whole other, a whole other barrier, unfortunately. That's great. Well, I'm very excited to look into one or more of these homework assignments.
00:45:37
Speaker
I'm like, I'm at the library now. I should check and see if they carry that book. No bad part. Yeah. And I'm like this close to making an indecent proposal where I know it's not allowed, but where I just give you some money to unburden me. I never said that.
00:45:58
Speaker
Cool. Well, Erin, thank you so much for spending the time with us and sharing all this information. Yeah, this is great. And I love hearing you talk about it and your excitement and enthusiasm for it.
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's basically just been like my favorite thing for years. So thank you for the opportunity. I could talk about it all day. um And then like Charlotte said, I have other things that I'm happy to talk about. So will happily come back and talk about something entirely different.
00:46:30
Speaker
Oh, good. We will take you up on that. Thank you for having me. All right. See you next time. Stay interesting. And stay interested.
00:46:41
Speaker
Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe, comment, and like the podcast. Follow us on Blue Sky Social at CanWeInterestYouIn.
00:46:51
Speaker
Send us an email at CanWeInterestYouIn at gmail.com. And join us next time.