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Charles Williams: the road to writing and directing his feature film debut Inside
62 Plays20 days ago
We’re joined on Breaking Screen by Charles Williams, an acclaimed Australian film director, writer, and producer, who talks about what winning the short film Palme d’Or in 2018 meant to him, how the films he grew up watching inspired his debut feature Inside, and how his work in short filmmaking prepared him when it came to directing a feature.
Charles has won more than 60 international awards, including the prestigious Cannes Film Festival Short Film Palme d'Or for All These Creatures. Charles then made his feature debut with Inside, which had its world premiere at Melbourne International Film Festival, was selected for Tribeca Film Festival, released theatrically in February via Bonsai Films, and is available to rent or buy now through Apple TV. Charles won the AWGIE Award for Best Original Screenplay for Inside and the Betty Roland Prize for scriptwriting at the NSW Literary Awards.
Inside follows a young man who’s transferred from a juvenile to adult prison, where he’s taken under the wing of both Australia’s most despised criminal (played by Cosmo Jarvis), and a soon-to-be-paroled inmate (played by Guy Pearce).
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Breaking Screen'
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands.
00:00:19
Speaker
Always was, always will be.
Guest Introduction: Charles Williams
00:00:21
Speaker
Today's episode will feature film director, writer and producer, Charles Williams. But before we get to that chat, here's some news from the Australian screen industry.
News wrap up
00:00:30
Speaker
Netflix released their latest engagement report on July 18, which shows what people watched most in the first half of the year. The full Excel tracks for hours viewed, runtime and views.
00:00:42
Speaker
In a surprise to no one, Adolescents and Squid Game Season 2 and 3 made up the top three, while two shows from Australian production companies made it into the top 50. The Survivors by Tony Ayers Productions came in at number 44, while Apple Cider Vinegar from Seesaw Films and Picking Scabs was number 50.
00:01:02
Speaker
Meanwhile, Australians are also in the initial lineup for the Toronto International Film Festival, with Baz Luhrmann's epic Elvis Presley in concert and David Michaud's Christie, starring Sidney Sweeney, both selected for the festival in September.
00:01:16
Speaker
And lastly, the Australian Writers Guild announced the winners of its 2025 Emerging Writers Awards, with Mads Macrae winning the Long Form Award for her script Graves End, while Georgia Struggle received the Short Form Award for her black comedy series Sugar Soap.
00:01:33
Speaker
The winners of the John Hinde Award for Science Fiction were also announced, with Jesse Laurie the winner of the Produced category with Feature Film Zero and Charlie Milne winning the Unproduced category with his feature Tiny Places.
00:01:46
Speaker
And that's your news wrap-up for now. Remember to head over to any of the Australian trade publications for more. Now to the chat with today's guest.
Charles Williams' Introduction
00:01:54
Speaker
We're joined on breaking screen by Charles Williams, an acclaimed Australian film director, writer and producer, who has won more than 60 international awards for his work.
00:02:04
Speaker
These include the prestigious Cannes Film Festival short film Palme d'Or in 2018 for All These Creatures, while most recently with his feature film debut Inside, Charles won the Augie Award for Best Original Screenplay And at the New South Wales Literary Awards, he won the $30,000 Betty Rowland Prize for script writing.
00:02:24
Speaker
Inside follows a young man who's transferred from a juvenile to adult prison where he's taken under the wing of both Australia's most despised criminal, played by Cosmo Jarvis, and a soon-to-be-paroled inmate, played by Guy Pearce.
00:02:38
Speaker
The film had its world premiere at Melbourne International Film Festival, was selected for Tribeca Film Festival, released theatrically in February via Bonsai Films, and is available to rent or buy now through Apple TV.
00:02:51
Speaker
Throughout the episode, Charles talks about what winning the short film Palme d'Or meant to him after more than a decade of trying to get his break in the industry, why the films he watched when he was young inspired him to make Inside, and how his work in short filmmaking prepared him when it came to directing a feature.
00:03:08
Speaker
Here's that chat.
00:03:13
Speaker
First of all, with this um podcast, we start with the same question for everyone. And that is about inciting incidents. So if you were to look at your career as a creative in the screen industry, what would you say is your inciting incident?
00:03:30
Speaker
The inciting incident that drew me into... Yeah. So it could be something when you were younger or it could literally be like a career thing that it was like, this was the thing that got me into the industry.
00:03:40
Speaker
It can, it can be your interpretation of it. Sure. Um, there was a pre-inciting incident, which is that from birth, I was just like someone who was a bit addicted to watching movies over and over again and memorizing them. And my mom- Was there a favorite?
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah. I'm a bit embarrassed to say. You don't have to. It's okay. they changed. Like they were all musicals really. I love a musical. You know, like real B musicals, like the Jolson story was was one I was like and when I was like five and then I was like reciting Seven Brides for Seven Brothers and it's like a gimmick, like, you know, as a six-year-old. Like it's just pretty creepy, um especially when you're like out on a country farm in the middle of rural Victoria. It's
00:04:29
Speaker
It's a pretty weird. Anyway, so there was a lot of just addiction to movies, which, you know, as I was growing up, I think they kind of just were, you know, sort of palliative, you know, like you just sort of, they sort of took you someplace else and distracted me from things that were difficult and were just a great place to be.
00:04:47
Speaker
But then in terms of like the what I would call the inciting incident was, I think, you know, after my parents had divorced when I was nine, there was just a lot more like, you know, we can't really, we've got no time to parent you. so just whatever, you just watch whatever.
Influence of R-rated Films
00:05:01
Speaker
And I started to watch just R-rated movies all the time.
00:05:04
Speaker
And that was really the time where I started to see movies that were, ah guess, sort of shocking, but not because of their explicit content, but because they were such accurate reflections of the world that I was trying to ah grapple with at the time and like not being able to understand.
00:05:22
Speaker
And in some deep way in like my nervous system, you kind of went, oh, this is like other people know about this and this feeling that I have. and They're experiencing it. Yeah, seeing films that that were way too old for me.
00:05:37
Speaker
And just wanting to kind of, like you had a thread and you just wanted to keep pulling at that thread.
Inspiration from Scorsese
00:05:43
Speaker
And that thread could have started with like, there were lots of movies, but let's say, you know, you see a Scorsese movie and that thread was really good because his films very openly wear influences on their sleeve.
00:05:56
Speaker
So you could pull that thread and then you're in Cassavetes and then you're in Powell and Pressburger and you're in Orson Welles and Truffaut and Hitchcock. And so that was probably the best inciting incidents being, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13 and watching inappropriate movies.
00:06:14
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Very appropriate movies depending on how you view it. Yeah. And so we'll talk a little bit about your feature film you know in a moment, but, um and I'm sure everyone asks you about your short film, ah which had huge success at Cannes.
00:06:33
Speaker
And so I feel like we do need to touch on all these creatures and just your experience of looking back now at that moment, what the impact you feel was of having ah short film win that award at Cannes.
Cannes Experience: Transformation
00:06:51
Speaker
Almost the biggest impact was being selected to be in Cannes already because i was coming from such a place of sort of bashing my head up against the wall of not really feeling like i was – all my efforts were were getting anywhere. And so being selected at Cannes and also being selected in a way that was so full of like, not just the jury, but the selectors were just so astonished and emphatic in their love of the film and
00:07:23
Speaker
and And it just sort of that was a really profound and I was like, wow, and and feeling connected to a world at wider film community. Because like how long was that process before
Career Struggles Before Cannes
00:07:34
Speaker
that moment? Like how you say you feel like you're, you know, hitting your head against the wall. Like how long had you kind of felt that way?
00:07:41
Speaker
ah i mean, I've been making shorts like, you know, just VHS kind of shorts since like 13, 14, 15. But I probably made my first proper short film where I spent all the money I was thinking about going to university with on a short film when I was 19.
00:07:57
Speaker
ah And that film sort of won an award at Trotfest. And I think from that time on, I was always trying to like get a foothold or move forward and make a short film that went somewhere. And no matter how successful they were, and they were relatively successful, the industry as a whole just didn't, like just didn't matter.
00:08:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. in Australia in particular. And so that was, you know, and then I think Cannes must have been 35 or something or 36. ah That's a lot of time to be trying to get somewhere and not getting somewhere.
00:08:31
Speaker
so So that film getting um such emphatic attention reception and then of course winning the the palm door was was um it was great and I guess the feeling was sort of relief more than elation you could just feel a sort of weight lift a little bit of like I'm actually going to maybe have a chance now because I'd never received funding before then and it was all just rejection and stuff so and I never I mean I don't have parents I don't have you know like you're always in money trouble you don't
00:09:01
Speaker
hu So it's like a big battle for a lot of years. And, um yeah, I guess that was the biggest thing.
Post-Cannes Pressure
00:09:08
Speaker
And then there's the other. So there was a sort of emotional or personal relief.
00:09:15
Speaker
But then also it was an exciting kind of IOU, you know, winning the Palme d'Or. And the French let you know it. It's like yeah this is a big deal to us and you we only give one out. Yeah.
00:09:27
Speaker
Better make good. no pressure. Yeah, no, it's like, yeah yeah, this is pressure. They like to put it on, which is fun. Like it's not nothing, but that's good pressure. The kind of pressure of no one's ever may ever care and this may never get made and all that. That's a worse pressure.
00:09:43
Speaker
but the gun to your head of it better be good. and That's good pressure, I think, you know, pressure, good pressure. Yeah, yeah. ah In terms of the various forms of pressure, Yeah, that's Yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
And so this this kind of pressure where it is like what you're saying, it's like what's next, come on, kind of thing, did you always know that it was I'm going to make my feature film next?
Creating 'Inside'
00:10:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. Was it going to be this idea for Inside? Was it always this is it?
00:10:11
Speaker
Pretty much, yeah, that's right. had another feature that I was very early stages of developing and there were one or two offers. It was interesting. I never received a single offer to do anything in Australia after wedding the Palme d'Or at all. I got a few offers internationally to direct things but i'm not even a ah not an episode of a TV series or anything.
00:10:33
Speaker
So it was also like i I'm going to have to, there's only one option for me anyway. i only I'm going to have to write this movie and direct this movie. And which is what I wanted to do, but I guess it was it was this or nothing anyway.
00:10:48
Speaker
And then um I'd made it very difficult for myself because rather than just go, all these creatures, the feature, which ah people do do a lot, but I also have seen a lot of those movies and i they're never great to me when you take a successful short film and you stretch the length of it.
00:11:07
Speaker
Because what makes it so good as a short is it's designed for that length. Having said that, I wouldn't have thought it mightte would take me six
Prison as a Metaphor in 'Inside'
00:11:13
Speaker
years. I probably would have just stretched it out. Yeah, okay. So i i wanted to go, okay, so what would I do? What are the things about this short film that's been so meaningful to me and that have translated and to some extent that have translated well?
00:11:27
Speaker
But what was the themes and the relationships and the aesthetics that I wanted to explore again And how would I reimagine those if I wanted to see this as a feature film in a cinema?
00:11:40
Speaker
and So I took those things and went. And to some extent, it felt like the extension of the story to me, even though for a lot of people, they went prison. But that was a natural extension in my world a bit, you know, not just because I have family members that have had that experience.
00:11:58
Speaker
But, you know, you take those kinds of themes and the journey of what happens in the short film, I kind of looked at that kid and went, he'll probably do a little bit of time. Like it has a hopeful ending, but that he hasn't figured it all out. And if you've got no financial resources, no money, maybe, you know, all these other things that they're complicated that that kid is grappling with, it doesn't take much for a few missteps to happen before, know,
00:12:24
Speaker
you can be in a situation that puts you in prison. And it's not like prison with, I think for a lot of people that i have contact with that world. So they think it's like, that's where the baddies go and they lock you up. And it's, it's not really, it's, it's, um, you know, it's where you go. If you make a, come from a certain postcode, a lot of the time, and mean, half the prison population in Victoria come from 6% of the postcodes.
00:12:49
Speaker
So, you know, and I think, I can't remember the statistic, but the vast majority just people that haven't graduated high school. So there can be a predetermination about it and, um,
00:13:00
Speaker
And it felt also like I didn't want to do the prison genre at all. The world of prison felt like the perfect metaphor for what the film is about and and to some extent what the short was about. it's it's it's Those things are ah so front of mind and like I would go and visit prisons for years in researching the film and it was like you're walking into a situation where these themes that were under the surface in the short film were like daily conversations and just front of mind, you know, and people reckoning with –
00:13:36
Speaker
their own transgressions and other things that people have done to them and what is but is accountability, what is responsibility, is freedom what we really want. you know a These kinds of complicated things were just so, it's it's so built for the world of prison and as long as I didn't set it into an old school jail where it's like, you know, corrupt offices and it's dark and there's iron bars and there's beatings and everyone's trying to make a tunnel for escape.
00:14:04
Speaker
As long as I avoided all of that, it would be the perfect place for the feature. And so were you trying to, do you think in a way you were talking about when you watched those films as, you know, nine yearre old or say ah and you felt like you were seeing people having experiences that you could relate to, is that something when you're saying like the prison was, it's simply a world where you can tell this story, were you trying to thematically achieve the same thing for someone who watches this film?
Relatable Experiences in Films
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, completely. Like ah that was probably the thing that was most in my head is like, um you never know how many movies you might get to make, if any at all. Like I better, I want to give someone the experience that was most meaningful to me, which was seeing films with, it sort of helped me understand, not intellectually, but like just like somewhere in my nervous system, I better understood the people around me and myself and in a way that I, you know, you just couldn't in and in the normal movies or in in the world in general.
00:15:03
Speaker
people that were, you know, sometimes inscrutable and volatile and maybe not that sympathetic, but were coming from a place where you could ah have an empathy for them.
00:15:14
Speaker
um And the stories had a push pull kind of relationship with the characters. You weren't always with them. You weren't always like, oh, I'm rooting for this guy to win. There was like, oh, I love this person. I'm like, oh no, wait, I don't know that I like this person.
00:15:28
Speaker
And I loved movies like that. And And the other thing about those movies is they never completely became a genre. Whatever genre you thought they were, whatever they were presenting, they would drift and become this other thing and often still satisfy whatever you thought the genre was.
00:15:45
Speaker
You know, like there was a billion movies. i'm just front of mind is Dog Day Afternoon, you know. It's like, oh, this is a heist movie. you're like, oh, no, this is this whole of John Kazar. Wait a minute.
00:15:56
Speaker
I thought I liked him. Jesus Christ, he's going to kill everybody. He means it. You know, like, well, whatever this movie was, that it would it wouldn't just give her a genre answer. The genre would help you be accessible to an audience that wasn't necessarily a sophisticated intellectual audience all the time. It was like a movie going, you could you could eat popcorn and watch the movie, but you were getting something else that was characters didn't want to just deliver what the genre was telling them.
00:16:24
Speaker
And i wanted I wanted to make a movie like that, which is increasingly hard to make and increasingly rare, where the characters um aren't always likeable and they do self-sabotage and they don't act in their own best interests.
00:16:39
Speaker
And that's sort of something that i was very present for me growing up in the world and still I guess still is. And they're just really exciting movies to watch where you're watching someone you're like, what's going on with this person? You feel like you understand them and then you're like,
00:16:54
Speaker
I don't know that I understand you. There's like that unpredictable quality. Yeah, and you're curious. You're sort of leaning in and you see that in a lot of great filmmakers' work or films that I like anyway, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, you were saying it took six years from um the time of the short. I think the short is around 13 minutes, but correct me if wrong. Yeah, that's um So 13 minutes to feature film, first feature film.
00:17:18
Speaker
And people talk a lot about, you know, that leap from shorts to features um where, yeah, you're essentially making something that's, I don't, don't, don't make me do maths eight times more, something like that. Yeah. length yeah Anyway.
00:17:33
Speaker
But what did you find the most challenging aspect of making a first feature film, whether it was from the scripting or it was the actual shoot?
Transitioning to Feature Filmmaking
00:17:42
Speaker
What was the more challenging aspect of making that leap?
00:17:46
Speaker
I think filmmaking in general, all of it is just immensely difficult. Yeah. I think I often make it more difficult for myself as well. So I think it's, and and and sometimes that's a good thing, like if something's really difficult,
00:17:59
Speaker
frequently it aligns with being more interesting. Not always. Sometimes you're just making it hard for yourself. Okay. But if you make a short film that has road closures and bugs and dogs and kids and shooting on film and all of those difficulties, if you can manage to get through of that, you might have something good.
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah. You might also just make a really hard time for yourself. Or both, you know. Yeah, both. Hopefully both. um The leap, though, in terms of what was difficult about going from a short to a feature,
00:18:28
Speaker
I think is that you have less time to shoot, right? So the short, in terms of the amount of minutes per day that i had to get, probably had four times more time to shoot the short film.
00:18:42
Speaker
And i made that short film with no money at all, just whatever I could scrounge myself and everyone working for free and things. So there wasn't a luxurious amount of time. But the feature, you you have even less.
00:18:53
Speaker
And time is everything, particularly to me. Like i I don't mind if I don't have a lot of resources to have a very small crew, but I like it's important to be able to consider what you're doing and stop everyone for a second and wait a minute, is there a better way that we could realise this?
00:19:10
Speaker
And with the feature, the first feature and this particular feature, yeah you had to really move fast. So that that was the thing is like, you know, you're going to have to move very quickly and adapt very quickly.
00:19:24
Speaker
So I think that was probably the biggest difference and one that I don't think a lot of people would expect because short filmmaking, you're already so strapped for time. Yeah. um How does that then impact you as a director going into a feature knowing that you have you know, time is really of the essence. Are you someone that plans things out?
00:19:47
Speaker
You know, every shot you kind of know what you're going into or like do you have it so that you do have a little bit of time to be adaptable? Like how do you, how does that affect you as a director?
00:19:58
Speaker
ah Well, Without going into like a long story, like a lot of our time, shooting schedule got fairly drastically reduced pretty last minute. So that was wasn't a lot of time. to If I had have known up front, you've only got this amount of time, I might have planned slightly differently.
00:20:15
Speaker
But I think... Over the years, i've I've become more flexible in terms of what I bring to set. Earlier on, I was like nailing everything down in the room, like no one move. I already planned this. Yeah, okay. And then the results were often a bit stale because you you just have less confidence in your own instincts or your ability to – And probably because you don't really know what you're doing.
00:20:38
Speaker
And over time, I've become more adaptable to i know what I want and there's other ways to do it. And let's see what the best way is to get there. So i I don't really bring the script with me anywhere on set.
00:20:51
Speaker
I know what I need to know. And I i try to... um try to be quite open to what's going to happen today. i know the language that I have constructed for the film very specifically and I've spoken to the cinematographer for months about what the language is the but like the lexicon of shots, and been very specific about the kinds of lenses we're using and the processes we're using. and Same with everyone in the team, but in terms of like this is a close-up that cuts to a wide and then we push in on that. and There's a lot less of that with me now because I want to give the actors
00:21:24
Speaker
input and freedom and I want to and also because that's that's part of the process where it's a lot easier for me now to do things visually like it's not and and a film like this I'm much more and over the years I'm much more I realize the thing that captivates me most is performances and great great shots when the performances suck are profoundly boring it's great to have everything but I I kind of go If I'm working with Cosmo and he's got an idea and he wants to explore over I don't want to go, well, I already storyboarded all this and we're doing it this way. I want to go, well, what what does that do for us? And, yeah, I can change. Like, let's do this and I can come around this way. and
00:22:03
Speaker
So this I work as flexibly. like i still need to stay flexible, yeah. Yeah, which I think like you said, if you when you started off, your it that was different. But even though those years of like, kind of slogging through it with the shorts um would have been difficult. There's all there's so much that you kind of learned to get to the point where you can be so flexible, because you know what you want and what you like and what you yeah yeah and and even just other things like you know I'm sure there's a lot of filmmakers you're just doing sometimes you're making shit you know you're making videos and it's not it's not nothing like i think I learned from those two like it just the the time of going of just going okay this is a good job and you get there and you slowly just gain more confidence in your ability to appear somewhere and go oh I do know what I'm doing
00:22:52
Speaker
Um, like I, if I don't have every single detail nailed down, i'm actually getting better material here. ah The weather has changed and the light looks different and didn't know there was a window there and actually what if i come around this way and like you, you gain a lot from making anything, from making videos, from making, don't music videos or whatever TV commercials.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah.
AI in Filmmaking and Artistic Integrity
00:23:15
Speaker
And so the the final part of these all these interviews is we do a ah segment called Pay It Forward, which is that a previous guest has given me a question to ask you, um not knowing it's you, just generally a question. And then I'm going to ask you that and you come up with a question to ask whoever the next guest is. Right.
00:23:37
Speaker
So the previous guest was Melissa Lee Spire. She's a screenwriter. She's also worked in development before. And her question is around AI. ah So she said, ai is here to stay. i think we all know that.
00:23:50
Speaker
How can we use it as a tool or a resource usefully without sacrificing our artistic integrity? I'm not talking about like all producers should write the first three drafts of a script with ChatGPT and then just get a writer to punch it up. Like Okay, that saves money, but that would compromise an artist's integrity.
00:24:08
Speaker
How can we use AI as a tool that might spur us, that might challenge us without compromising our artistic ah integrity and without shrinking the pool for all the writers that should be learning alongside us in those entry-level roles?
00:24:21
Speaker
It's like, I think the what worries me about AI sometimes is that it will cut out of the market all of the roles in which the very few roles that exist already for people to cut their teeth in writings.
00:24:32
Speaker
to understand the industry, you know, to shadow somebody else. And that that makes us poorer because our pool will be shallower. But there must be a way to use AI efficiently and effectively, just as we've learned how to use computers.
00:24:44
Speaker
You know, like the internet didn't destroy reading. TV didn't destroy cinema. How do we learn to live with AI, I guess? I think we have to. i't I don't think it's an option. um But I'm probably not the best person to ask because I don't use any of it even in like any capacity. Yeah. I think i think it's going to be really helpful in terms of, I mean, just in terms of what we currently do with with a lot of labour for CGI and things like that is obviously going to be really helpful.
00:25:15
Speaker
But it's going to be way more applicable in areas that I don't even know. And I think everyone's concerned more in terms of writing I don't even i know plenty of people use it to draft things like an email or an application or whatever I tried it once or twice and then I had to do all this work to rewrite it all so it came from me yeah it just sounded like it just sounded so alien yeah that won't be the case forever and I'm sure you can it can even learn your own way of speaking but
00:25:46
Speaker
No, I don't know. um um I'm probably going to get outdated very quickly because I like – and also, as I've said, I seem to try to do everything the hardest possible way. I think with AI, I just think you want to you want to just sit down and like – can't you know get a pencil out and start writing a scene and exploring it rather than going, hey, a I do a pass on what would happen if a dad met a son they'd never met or whatever. And and then you like punch it up. Just going about things that way sounds really hard to me.
00:26:18
Speaker
But no matter what, people are going to have to get along with it. I'm concerned that and The horse has already bolted, but I'm concerned that audiences are soon not going to be able to tell the difference between the garbage that's being made and the garbage that's going to be made by AI.
00:26:32
Speaker
I hope that it becomes a challenge for filmmakers and studios and everything to make better work because AI can do it anyway.
00:26:43
Speaker
But the biggest thing is if an audience has known the difference. And at the moment, a lot of the time people are being fed such fast food for entertainment, your taste buds might not know the difference between artificial and real.
00:26:56
Speaker
I hope, if I was optimistic, I would hope that it forced people to um to make more interesting films and TV, not content, you know, yeah films, TV, everything, rather than defaulting to content.
00:27:11
Speaker
Because AI can do it. You know, what have you got if that AI can't do? So I'll try and say the optimistic version. Let's say that. Things are going to get better because otherwise AI can do it. Yeah. No, I love that. And ah thank you so much for joining me on this podcast today. I really appreciate it.
00:27:26
Speaker
Thanks. I hope um ah hope I did okay.
00:27:31
Speaker
That was Inside Writer Director Charles Williams, who I think we can all agree did more than okay in that chat. Thanks again to Charles as well as to the team at Nixco for the interview.
00:27:42
Speaker
This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb Sebotaj Gavrilovic. If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. See you in a fortnight.