Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 153: Rock On with John Borg
14 Plays4 months ago
John Borg is here to talk about all his 37 years of making pinball!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction: Meet Your Hosts
00:00:07
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast.
00:00:09
Speaker
This is episode 158.
00:00:10
Speaker
I am Josh Roop.
00:00:12
Speaker
With me, my co-captain as always.
00:00:14
Speaker
Scott Larson.
Pinball Enthusiasm: New vs. Borrowed
00:00:15
Speaker
And Scott, I've got to tell you, I want to say thank you because you let me borrow your genie.
00:00:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:20
Speaker
But I got it home and...
00:00:22
Speaker
I turn it on and I'm like, why is it not working?
00:00:25
Speaker
And so I had to dig through the whole cabinet and I'm like, oh, there's a plug down here.
00:00:29
Speaker
So I plug it in.
00:00:29
Speaker
Right.
00:00:30
Speaker
And then I turn it on and it's not working again.
00:00:36
Speaker
And stuff zip tied together.
00:00:37
Speaker
Like, what the heck is going on?
00:00:39
Speaker
I had to find a jumper, all this crazy stuff.
00:00:41
Speaker
Right.
00:00:42
Speaker
Like I finally had enough.
00:00:43
Speaker
And it reminded me.
00:00:45
Speaker
that I'm so glad I buy new pinball machines from flipping out pinball because there might be a little tweak here and there, but really it took like 24 hours to get your genie up and going.
00:00:56
Speaker
And finally it's working.
00:00:58
Speaker
But even like once I got up and running, the left flipper stuck up and I was like, you've got to be joking me.
00:01:03
Speaker
Come on.
00:01:04
Speaker
I can't catch a break.
00:01:05
Speaker
So if you want less haydack instead of buying older games, buy newer games like flipping out pinball like Metallica.
00:01:12
Speaker
Uh,
00:01:15
Speaker
And I think you have a little news for us too, right, Scott?
Metallica Pinball: Acquisition and Add-ons
00:01:18
Speaker
You want to talk about that now or you want to?
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:20
Speaker
So actually I was able to secure myself a Metallica LE.
00:01:25
Speaker
Nice.
00:01:26
Speaker
So I am super excited.
00:01:28
Speaker
Unfortunately, it just got more expensive because they released the accessories.
00:01:34
Speaker
And so now I'm getting a topper and a shooter rod.
00:01:37
Speaker
And thankfully the expression lights and the side armor are already included in the LE.
00:01:42
Speaker
But yes.
00:01:43
Speaker
So I am going to be...
00:01:44
Speaker
blinging this up and I need to figure out which one of these bad boys that I need to move because Metallica is going to get a feature spot.
00:01:52
Speaker
Well, a wizard of Oz is not the same as the other.
00:01:55
Speaker
So wizard of Oz is not the same, but it's also like 500 pounds and moving it out of my basement.
00:02:01
Speaker
It would be kind of a pain.
00:02:03
Speaker
So it's easier to remove a dead body.
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:02:06
Speaker
I may, I may need to move, you know, maybe monster bash, maybe monster bash me to sleep for a while.
00:02:13
Speaker
Speaking of dead bodies, we have a man that now created Sparky, right, Scott?
Guest Appearance: John Borg on Pinball Design
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:20
Speaker
Redefined it and has done probably what has been considered the best Stern game ever made, which could be arguable now.
00:02:29
Speaker
But you know what?
00:02:30
Speaker
Metallica held the reins for years.
00:02:31
Speaker
I'm still going with Metallica right now.
00:02:33
Speaker
Metallica certainly has stood the test of time.
00:02:36
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:02:37
Speaker
And it's not just Metallica.
00:02:38
Speaker
It's other legendary games, right?
00:02:40
Speaker
Like you think of Tron, you think of Avatar, X-Men, Iron Man, The Walking Dead.
00:02:47
Speaker
I mean, these are all top tier games that have redefined and rush.
00:02:52
Speaker
I mean, tournament play has been redefined by these games.
00:02:57
Speaker
They're amazing.
00:02:58
Speaker
We have none other than John Borg on joining us today.
00:03:01
Speaker
How are you doing, John?
00:03:02
Speaker
I'm doing great, guys.
00:03:04
Speaker
Pleasure to be on your show.
00:03:06
Speaker
Okay, I am super excited because I have been wanting to get John Borg on
Designing Metallica: Challenges and Collaborations
00:03:12
Speaker
for a while.
00:03:12
Speaker
And mainly because there are so many things about design that I want to talk about, especially with Rush.
00:03:18
Speaker
But I am going to secure myself and I want to focus on Metallica.
00:03:23
Speaker
So to start with, why don't you wind us way back in the day?
00:03:27
Speaker
And this is in, I would say, the golden era of Stern had just barely started.
00:03:34
Speaker
I would argue that ACDC just came out and they were starting to really ramp up some of these legendary recent games.
00:03:44
Speaker
And John, tell me how the original Metallica came to be.
00:03:50
Speaker
Uh, they told me this was after ACDC.
00:03:53
Speaker
They told me that they had procured a Metallica license.
00:03:57
Speaker
And I remember the first heart attack I had working on the game was I started working on the game on a Monday.
00:04:03
Speaker
And then they, they came and told me that James Hetfield was going to record speech for the game on Thursday.
00:04:08
Speaker
And I just, just found out I was working on it.
00:04:11
Speaker
So I had a heart attack.
00:04:13
Speaker
Uh, that was the first one.
00:04:14
Speaker
And then I, uh, so I sat down for a couple of days and
00:04:17
Speaker
and stayed up really late at night.
00:04:18
Speaker
I was working two shifts and I thought of everything that James Hetfield could possibly say in a pinball machine.
00:04:24
Speaker
And I wrote it down and put a doc together and got it ready for him on Thursday.
00:04:29
Speaker
Luckily, as the game progressed and started to, to form there were other speech items, phrases, call outs that I wanted.
00:04:40
Speaker
And then the rest of the band found out that Hetfield had recorded for the game and
00:04:44
Speaker
And then they said they all wanted to record too.
00:04:46
Speaker
So I recorded, rerecorded with the rest of the band.
00:04:50
Speaker
Um, and I gave them some of even James lines that were in his original script and then added a lot to it, uh, to fill holes and things that we needed.
00:04:59
Speaker
And it was great just to hear all, all four of the band members, you know, call outs in the game.
00:05:04
Speaker
Um, so, uh, uh, so then after that I was looking at, you know, the album covers, um, you know, and talking with my team and, uh,
00:05:14
Speaker
we decided that we were going to, uh, you know, I talked about ride the lightning and the ride, the lightning album cover just has a very small electric chair way off in the background.
00:05:23
Speaker
Um, and I thought, boy, it'd be really cool to put an electric chair in the game and shock a character in the electric chair.
00:05:29
Speaker
So I first kind of saw it as like a real sinister kind of character, like, um, uh, sin city.
00:05:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:38
Speaker
You know, if you're familiar and, uh,
00:05:42
Speaker
So then they told me that I was going to be working with a Metallica artist.
00:05:44
Speaker
So they, they, uh, they sent dirty Donnie our way.
00:05:48
Speaker
And I started to talk to Donnie and I looked at Donnie's art and I thought, wow, um, you know, let's see what he does.
00:05:54
Speaker
He's going to, he's going to lay out a sparky or it wasn't even sparky yet.
00:05:58
Speaker
He just actually sent the image of this character in an electric chair.
00:06:01
Speaker
And I go, wow, let's call him sparky.
00:06:04
Speaker
And, uh, and we didn't change a thing.
00:06:06
Speaker
It just, uh,
00:06:08
Speaker
It just looked fabulous.
00:06:09
Speaker
The only thing that was in his original drawings, it had a couple of like big light bulbs sticking up from behind the chair that we, you know, we ended up taking those out.
00:06:19
Speaker
But, you know, other than that, you know, Sparky was just, you know, Donnie did a doodle and sent it in and I was like, I love it.
00:06:25
Speaker
And we just went that direction.
00:06:28
Speaker
Roadcase came about when they were thinking that, you know, wow, all this cartoon drawn art, all this hand drawn art, we should do a photo realistic package.
00:06:37
Speaker
And we only made probably 150 of those.
00:06:40
Speaker
Those are actually less... Those are more rare than the LEs, actually.
00:06:44
Speaker
There were fewer of them made.
00:06:49
Speaker
But yeah, it was a lot of fun.
00:06:50
Speaker
So I started working on the electric chair, and then I came up with the idea to raise the grave marker out of the play field for Master of Puppets.
00:07:00
Speaker
And then I had...
00:07:02
Speaker
So I started working on the toys and then I sat and I was having a meeting one day with Lyman and Greg and I was looking at the Injustice for All album cover and I noticed the gavel and I thought, you know, and I was talking to the guys about it and I go, what if we do a hammer that comes down and smashes the ball and it goes underneath the playfield and it goes into a death magnetic casket.
00:07:23
Speaker
And I was just kidding.
00:07:25
Speaker
And
00:07:26
Speaker
Lyman goes, yeah, that's pretty cool.
00:07:28
Speaker
You know, so we put that down on the list and then I started working on the layout and I just started trying to shoehorn everything that we had thought up to put in the game in the game.
00:07:37
Speaker
So that's how the, that's how that all came about.
00:07:42
Speaker
Did Stern approach them or did they approach Stern?
00:07:44
Speaker
Do you know?
00:07:45
Speaker
I believe they approached Stern and I know the second time around just recently, they, they had seen a rush somewhere out in the wild and they, and they looked at the display and they saw the live concert footage and they're like, we want that.
Metallica Pinball: Updates and Editions
00:07:59
Speaker
So they, they contacted us about renewing the license and doing another run.
00:08:04
Speaker
Um, so they, uh, they gave us Reese Cooper to work with this time.
00:08:09
Speaker
They provided another artist and, uh, and he did a beautiful job on the new game.
00:08:13
Speaker
Um,
00:08:14
Speaker
It's very sinister and very Metallica.
00:08:19
Speaker
Sparky, the Sparky image changed mainly because the art is just, you know, as sinister as it is.
00:08:28
Speaker
I don't know that Sparky's image would have worked wrong.
00:08:31
Speaker
I agree with that, yeah.
00:08:32
Speaker
So people ask me in the beginning, you know, when they first saw Sparky, they're like, how come he's a skeleton?
00:08:38
Speaker
I'm like, well, he's been sitting in the electric chair for 10 years getting shot.
00:08:41
Speaker
That was flesh burned away.
00:08:44
Speaker
So, um, but yeah, the new Sparky with the, with the UV effects, he looks really good.
00:08:50
Speaker
Um, I'm really happy with the way everything turned out.
00:08:52
Speaker
Everything that I touched on the game, I wanted to make it, you know, bigger, better, stronger and faster.
00:08:57
Speaker
Um, you know, from a, uh, aesthetic standpoint and, you know, to, uh, uh, like that, that three bank that was on the original game had reflective optos, um,
00:09:09
Speaker
And it was troublesome for some people until they were tweaked when we manufactured the game.
00:09:16
Speaker
But the new bank is our new three bank, and it's much more robust and probably weighs twice as much.
00:09:23
Speaker
So we just kept picking at it and just trying to make everything better on it and add a few things that we didn't get to put in the first time around.
00:09:29
Speaker
One of the things is the Metallica sign on the back panel.
00:09:32
Speaker
So as you're shooting ramps, you actually just look forward and you can see where you're at.
00:09:37
Speaker
I used to shoot the ramps.
00:09:39
Speaker
until I was blue in the face, until I heard the song, you know, until I heard, you know, Lady Justice start.
00:09:44
Speaker
You know, it's hard to shoot a ramp and then get ready for the next ramp shot and look up at the display and see how many letters you've collected.
00:09:51
Speaker
So I wanted to do that and add that to the back panel.
00:09:55
Speaker
But we had a lot of fun.
00:09:56
Speaker
We had a lot of fun working on the game and, you know, the extra features that we got to add, that was, you know, that was just bonus.
00:10:04
Speaker
So I know you're a big rock and roll fan and whatnot, and I assume you're a big fan of Metallica.
00:10:10
Speaker
Did you kind of fangirl when you heard that the guys were coming in to do sound and whatnot?
00:10:15
Speaker
Um, they actually didn't come in.
00:10:17
Speaker
They did it, they did it from afar.
00:10:19
Speaker
Um, so I actually didn't get to meet them.
00:10:22
Speaker
Um, but just the fact that they were going to rerecord, we were recorded all the original speech plus all the new speech.
00:10:28
Speaker
And there were probably, I probably added four or 500 lines to the script.
00:10:32
Speaker
Um,
00:10:34
Speaker
Um, and then I worked with, uh, Eric Lieberman.
00:10:37
Speaker
Uh, he works for, uh, he's a writer for Seth Meyers show.
00:10:41
Speaker
So I had to work with him and, and then working with Raymond was great too.
00:10:45
Speaker
He just, you know, he knows the game, like the back of his hand.
00:10:48
Speaker
And, um, you know, while he was, while he was still working on the last project, uh, I just started writing rules for the new game.
00:10:57
Speaker
Uh, Metallica, uh, wanted us to put
00:10:59
Speaker
wanted to wanted us to give them some coverage for the the two albums that have come out since 2013 so uh so i put the uh hardwired inserts on the play field and then i repurposed the pick targets for 72 seasons and then the way you collect band members in the game now is a little bit different um you collect a band member by starting a multi-ball um the thing that nobody has seen in the game yet is the uh
00:11:25
Speaker
is the blackened feature.
00:11:26
Speaker
After you collect all four band members, the crank it up scoop lights, and you shoot in there and you see the throw switch come up in the display and Sparky comes into the view and his eyes roll back and forth like he's crazy.
00:11:40
Speaker
And then he throws the switch
00:11:43
Speaker
or he flips you the bird.
00:11:45
Speaker
And then he looks back at the camera as, as, and then you see the four band members come up in the display and there's just silhouettes of the four band members and they've all got the helmets on and they're all getting shocked.
00:11:55
Speaker
So shock Sparky gets to shock the band in the new, in the new model.
00:12:00
Speaker
There is also a family version of that where he gives you the devil horns instead of, instead of flipping you the bird.
00:12:08
Speaker
So.
Balancing Gameplay: Difficulty and Family-Friendliness
00:12:10
Speaker
That probably makes it a little more challenging considering that.
00:12:12
Speaker
I mean,
00:12:13
Speaker
I would say Metallica has never been super R-rated, but they've certainly been a little more edgy.
00:12:17
Speaker
So finding that balance of being able to get that into a home with young kids.
00:12:23
Speaker
Right.
00:12:25
Speaker
Well, the game's going out in family mode now.
00:12:27
Speaker
I mean, it did ship in 17 and 13 with the adult mode turned on.
00:12:34
Speaker
Well, I may have to wait until my... So if you want to change it, you can.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah, when my kids go to sleep, I may have to throw on the adult mode and check it out a little more.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:45
Speaker
But there are a few... Tell me more about... Oh, I'm sorry.
00:12:48
Speaker
Keep going.
00:12:49
Speaker
Keep going.
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh, no.
00:12:50
Speaker
There are a few call-outs in the game that are a little risque.
00:12:54
Speaker
You know, they're a little... Not risque, but they're a little rough for young ears.
00:12:58
Speaker
Sure.
00:12:58
Speaker
Sure.
00:13:00
Speaker
Now, the, so the layout now, typically with vault additions or, you know, now this is a remastered edition.
00:13:09
Speaker
Typically you try to fix things in the layout, but tweak it enough that it fixes things that were problematic in the past, but need to be revamped or worked.
00:13:20
Speaker
So what are some of the things that you did in this layout to make them function better?
00:13:26
Speaker
One of the things that I did was I put a stainless steel up post in the middle of the orbit because a lot of people would shoot the left orbit on their game and it would spring off of the nylon post and come back down the orbit shot and feed back to the flipper where it was supposed to just stop up there and feed into the top lanes.
00:13:45
Speaker
So that worked really well.
00:13:47
Speaker
When you shoot it really, really hard, the ball just stops, it dies, and it goes into the top lanes like it's supposed to.
00:13:53
Speaker
The drop target bank was the other thing that was kind of a little problematic on the original model.
00:14:00
Speaker
And that one is much more robust and it's got a real opto switch instead of a reflective now.
00:14:06
Speaker
But other than that, geometry wise, I was very pleased with the way everything was and played.
00:14:12
Speaker
And I really didn't make any.
00:14:15
Speaker
any changes other than just updating things like the scoop is our newer design with a, with a opto switch where the old one had a micro switch.
00:14:25
Speaker
We tweaked the, the assembly for the disappearing ball magnet a little bit.
00:14:31
Speaker
We changed the spring location.
00:14:34
Speaker
And I do believe that the new one is compatible in the old game, but it is, the makeup is a little bit different.
00:14:43
Speaker
The spring is different.
00:14:45
Speaker
You know, we tested it.
00:14:46
Speaker
It went like 300,000 cycles and then the spring broke and we had that happen a couple of times.
00:14:52
Speaker
So we went and redesigned it, retested it and went 500,000 and kept going after that.
00:14:56
Speaker
We shut it off at 500K.
00:14:58
Speaker
That's pretty crazy.
00:14:59
Speaker
The 500,000, so you went half a million.
00:15:01
Speaker
Like, I think it's going to last now.
00:15:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah, we had just two kickers firing balls up to that magnet, stopping them, pulling them underneath and popping back up and releasing the ball back to a kicker and just bam, bam, bam, bam.
00:15:14
Speaker
Well, and this game feels like it shoots a little smoother now, too.
00:15:17
Speaker
You also did something to the ramps.
00:15:19
Speaker
I'm not really sure what the reason is for that because the geometry is roughly all the same.
00:15:27
Speaker
But I feel like I'm, I don't know, the shot going into the grave marker to knock down the drop target seems easier to me.
00:15:34
Speaker
Now, my game, I've been playing with the 2013 code, so after I knock down my drop targets, I have to go in and hit the grave marker twice for it to stop the ball.
00:15:43
Speaker
So in 17, I think Lyman changed it.
00:15:46
Speaker
So you just first time in when you hit the grade marker, it stops the ball and starts the multi ball.
00:15:51
Speaker
But that shot seems to feel easier.
00:15:54
Speaker
The main thing I did was I had to pull the back panel in a half an inch because we use it as a straightener for the back of the play field now, or we used to put a wood rail like the old wood rails that go up and down the sides of your game.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:09
Speaker
And we used to mount the back panel to the back of the game, mount it to the back of the playfield and that wood rail.
00:16:15
Speaker
So we moved the back panel in years ago.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I had to do that to the game.
00:16:20
Speaker
So that actually made, I had to actually shorten the ramps each by a half an inch.
00:16:25
Speaker
So I brought everything back in.
00:16:26
Speaker
The entrances are still in the same spot in relation to the flippers, but the back, you know, they're actually a half an inch shorter than the original ones.
00:16:35
Speaker
Does that affect the speed of it?
00:16:36
Speaker
Like the ball comes back to you at all?
00:16:39
Speaker
Not much.
00:16:39
Speaker
Not noticeable.
00:16:40
Speaker
Not enough.
00:16:41
Speaker
And they both still feel the same.
00:16:43
Speaker
They're both still nice and smooth.
00:16:46
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
Now we have more music on these.
00:16:53
Speaker
So tell me how we, uh, you selected or the band selected, which songs you're going to integrate more into them and how that affects gameplay.
00:17:02
Speaker
The band selected them.
00:17:03
Speaker
Um, and, uh, the gameplay, I didn't want to interrupt the original gameplay that much, but the, you know, the 72 seasons and, uh, the hardwired feature, uh, they just kind of come into play and just blend in with everything else very nicely.
00:17:17
Speaker
Um, kind of like injustice for all those.
00:17:20
Speaker
you know, you start in justice for all and you're playing that you might be, you know, and then go into a multi-ball or something like that.
00:17:25
Speaker
So those other features kind of work similar to the way that one does.
00:17:30
Speaker
And so that worked out really well.
00:17:33
Speaker
And they're both, they're both pretty lucrative.
00:17:35
Speaker
Like when you go into 72 seasons, if you start trying to nail spinners, it ups the value of the toy you're going to collect.
00:17:42
Speaker
And then for every one of the pick targets you hit, you score that value.
00:17:46
Speaker
So say the first one you,
00:17:47
Speaker
you hit a spinner and it takes it up to like, you know, half a mil or something like that.
00:17:51
Speaker
You collect that first target, you hit a spinner or a couple more spinners after that.
00:17:55
Speaker
And then now you're looking at millions of points and then you collect those off the remaining targets that are still lit.
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, that, that feature is really, that's a lot of fun to play and it, it's not in your face all the time.
00:18:08
Speaker
You have to get 72 switch closures to start it.
00:18:12
Speaker
Um,
00:18:14
Speaker
But the hardwired feature, same thing.
00:18:17
Speaker
It plays pretty much along with the rest of the game.
00:18:21
Speaker
It blends in nicely, and it's not stepping on anything.
00:18:25
Speaker
So with the guitar picks, because you said you switched out, maybe not the guitar picks, the inlanes, has that always been a ball save?
00:18:31
Speaker
Because I noticed when we were playing at Stern, it was a ball save.
00:18:35
Speaker
But I don't remember that on the original game.
00:18:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:18:37
Speaker
It was a special on the original model.
00:18:40
Speaker
They were red outlane specials.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:42
Speaker
So he changed them to ball saves and called them, uh, resurrection.
00:18:46
Speaker
So you are resurrected when you dream.
00:18:49
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:49
Speaker
That does make the game easier to play and it gives you, it gives you a little more life.
00:18:55
Speaker
Well, and the reason behind it too, you guys said no one really goes for specials anymore.
00:18:58
Speaker
That's more of like a 70s, 80s term.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:03
Speaker
Which is kind of sad.
00:19:03
Speaker
I like special one lit, man.
00:19:05
Speaker
That's, that's good stuff.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:07
Speaker
And there's settings to change that because right now currently, uh,
00:19:11
Speaker
When you light resurrection, the outlines, if you hit one of them and it saves your ball, the other one remains lit.
00:19:20
Speaker
So, you know, there's settings in the game.
00:19:21
Speaker
You can make that harder if you want.
00:19:24
Speaker
You know, like when you collect one, they're both gone.
00:19:27
Speaker
You know, they both go out.
00:19:28
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:19:28
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:19:30
Speaker
But yeah, it does feel like our game time and our ball time and our game time is good.
00:19:37
Speaker
But I think a game should play a little longer.
00:19:42
Speaker
I mean, some games are so hard, sometimes it just irritates me and I'll just go play something else because I can play something else for a while.
00:19:50
Speaker
But Metallica is pretty player friendly.
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, which is funny because it always felt like such a brutal game before.
00:19:58
Speaker
And granted, it's still not the easiest game to play, but it's taken a little of the edge off.
00:20:04
Speaker
You don't feel like you're white-knuckling the game the whole time.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, yes.
00:20:09
Speaker
Well, for me, I was always surprised when people talked about Iron Man being so hard.
00:20:13
Speaker
And I'm like, it's hard...
00:20:16
Speaker
until you get it dialed into your brain.
00:20:21
Speaker
And then it feels a lot more familiar.
00:20:24
Speaker
And I was able to get long when I had my Ironman.
00:20:27
Speaker
I was able to get some long ball times to keep it going.
00:20:30
Speaker
And it's...
00:20:32
Speaker
I would argue it's probably similar with Metallica that because people are familiar with Metallica, because it's been around for 11 years, that they're going to have a connection instantly with this game.
00:20:46
Speaker
And it's going to be a, you know, it's a, it's a new reinvigorated version of a classic favorite that they had.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:57
Speaker
What was your favorite thing to add to this game?
00:21:02
Speaker
Adding the UV was really cool.
00:21:06
Speaker
The extra play features, that all came together really nice, you know, with kind of like a mini wizard mode with blackened at the end of it.
00:21:16
Speaker
And the game had a lot of rules to begin with.
00:21:18
Speaker
So to just be able to add a few more was just, it was really cool.
00:21:21
Speaker
A lot of fun.
00:21:24
Speaker
I've had some people ask me if those rules can be, you know, if we're going to code them and do an update for the old game, but you don't have any of those inserts on the play field, so you really can't.
00:21:34
Speaker
Right.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:35
Speaker
So it's kind of hard to retrofit in some ways.
00:21:40
Speaker
So they all have to buy the new one, apparently.
00:21:42
Speaker
They have to.
00:21:44
Speaker
So, John, I know a person that has a road case game.
00:21:51
Speaker
And it's, they have a lot of games in their, in their house.
00:21:55
Speaker
And they add it onto their house to make their game room bigger.
00:22:00
Speaker
They have a road case in their living room to the left of their fireplace.
00:22:04
Speaker
And then they've got another game on the right side.
00:22:07
Speaker
And they bought a Metallica LE to put on the right side.
00:22:10
Speaker
So they've got a Metallica pinball living room.
00:22:13
Speaker
Nice.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:14
Speaker
It's in stereo.
00:22:15
Speaker
It's in stereo.
00:22:17
Speaker
Well, I've seen people that have had like, you know, all the Elvira's in their collection, you know, side by side, you know, and a lot of people are putting their Metallica in their game room with their new Metallica, you know, vice versa.
00:22:31
Speaker
so i don't i don't know if you can talk to this or not but if you if you look at it's been about 30 months between when rush was released and metallica released it usually takes 18 months to do a a game itself from start from you know scratch to to end and with this being a remastered i would assume there's a little less development time can you kind of speak to what happened between that time yeah we talked about that um
00:22:59
Speaker
development time was just about the same as a normal
Pinball Design: Timelines and Challenges
00:23:02
Speaker
game.
00:23:02
Speaker
Just relay everything that had to be relayed out on the play field and adding lights and making new light boards, you know, new art and just following all that and seeing all that stuff through.
00:23:15
Speaker
It was just like doing a full blown game.
00:23:18
Speaker
But I did also two, I did two games after Rush and one of them I spent about five or six months on and we ended up not
00:23:28
Speaker
procuring the license for him.
00:23:31
Speaker
So they were trying to do a package deal and I believe, and it didn't go through.
00:23:37
Speaker
So I had to just take, you know, five months worth of work and just push it off to the side and go, okay, what's next?
00:23:44
Speaker
Save it.
00:23:47
Speaker
I guess that's the business, right?
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:49
Speaker
You never know where it's going to be.
00:23:50
Speaker
You never know.
00:23:51
Speaker
So, yeah, but I didn't make some new toys for that, that, that game that'll, that'll surface in the future on something else somewhere.
00:23:59
Speaker
So.
00:24:01
Speaker
Now you're also notorious for being of the designers, one that actually could go into a room and build it yourself because you have that knowledge of,
00:24:14
Speaker
how does that integrate into like approaching a game?
00:24:18
Speaker
Like when you get a game and you're like, okay, I, I want this game to feel this way.
00:24:24
Speaker
I want it to go this way.
00:24:26
Speaker
How does that integrate into your design layout?
00:24:30
Speaker
What you want to put in a game lead me through that process.
00:24:34
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:24:35
Speaker
Goodness.
00:24:35
Speaker
Um,
00:24:39
Speaker
Are we editing this at all?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, we can.
00:24:44
Speaker
Can you read me that question again?
00:24:46
Speaker
I'm kind of lost in what you're asking me.
00:24:49
Speaker
Okay, so when you get a license and you approach designing the game for it, what is your process when you think of the license?
00:25:00
Speaker
Because each layout is a little different and it flows differently.
00:25:04
Speaker
And so how do you make that license into the game?
00:25:09
Speaker
I start with what I think is going to be the focal point or the coolest thing in the game.
00:25:13
Speaker
You know, like for Metallica, for instance, the electric chair was going to be the big thing.
00:25:20
Speaker
Um, I just look at what toys or toy I'm going to put in a game, you know, uh, focal point, you know, main mechanical feature.
00:25:29
Speaker
Um, and then I just build around that and I'll, I'll, I'll lay these, you know, mechanisms in, in places on the play field and, and try to plan shots around them.
00:25:39
Speaker
Um,
00:25:41
Speaker
It's a crazy puzzle.
00:25:42
Speaker
And when I'm looking at it in the beginning, it's a top view of the play field and I'm looking at everything that's on the top and the bottom of the game at the same time so that when I build the thing, nothing's crashing into each other.
00:25:58
Speaker
It's crazy.
00:25:58
Speaker
I mean, sometimes your eyes pop out of your head when you're looking at the layout going, wow, trying to remember exactly what everything is because the layers, I work in layers too.
00:26:09
Speaker
Rails are a certain color, inserts are a certain color, trap lines are a certain color.
00:26:15
Speaker
And then I break down all my major assemblies after I've laid it out, laid out the top view with all the spotting and motors and switches and whatever's going on it.
00:26:25
Speaker
And I'll take that and then I just make like a single entity out of it.
00:26:29
Speaker
And then I can take it and place it and move it around in the play field.
00:26:33
Speaker
A lot easier than if you're drawing individual lines and circles.
00:26:37
Speaker
and trying to move a whole big group of something somewhere else.
00:26:41
Speaker
If you, you know, like if I want to move a lane over, you know, if I want to open up a lane, you know, a quarter inch or something, I'll just take the two flat rails, pull them off the drawing, you know, update them and then restore them.
00:26:53
Speaker
And then the ones that are in my drawing and the ones that are in a, another, a block that shows like all, just all the rails that are on the game, it just updates all that stuff.
00:27:04
Speaker
It's kind of like if I draw a mechanism, say I draw a sparky in his electric chair, you know, and I do all the line work and stuff like that.
00:27:12
Speaker
Then I go and I put a fence around it and I make it a single entity so I can take and move it wherever I want instead of having to move two or three thousand lines.
00:27:24
Speaker
But yeah, as far as how I go about making a game, I look at the mechanisms and then I'll place a mechanism somewhere where I think it should be.
00:27:34
Speaker
And then I pretty much build the game and lay out shots around it.
00:27:41
Speaker
So how was it different making the original Metallica versus this?
00:27:45
Speaker
And was it kind of a pain to transfer everything over from 2013 to 2024?
00:27:52
Speaker
Um, no, uh, you know, and I talked to Raymond about that, you know, cause he had to, he had to make the game function on, uh, on the spike system.
00:28:02
Speaker
Um, and it was originally a Sam game and he said it was kind of like, um, he described it as like, uh, converting Spanish to English, you know, uh, you know, some of the rules are different.
00:28:16
Speaker
Um, you know, punctuations are different and whatnot.
00:28:19
Speaker
And he said that was kind of what it was like for him.
00:28:21
Speaker
As far as myself, I laid out all the rails and everything, and I started pulling things off of the old layout and placing them on a fresh playfield layout, if you will.
00:28:33
Speaker
And then there were things that we don't do anymore, like rails, flat rails that make up your lanes in your game.
00:28:43
Speaker
We don't put mounting feet on radiuses any longer because it's a little harder to hold.
00:28:50
Speaker
you know, so Metallica had, you know, uh, mounting feet on the, the corners on the, the radii and the orbit flat rail, you know, so I had to change all that.
00:28:59
Speaker
So I just had to apply standards, you know, some of the new standards to the, uh, to the layout, um, you know, to just 10 years ago.
00:29:07
Speaker
So stuff, you know, stuff changes every 10 years.
00:29:11
Speaker
I look, you know, I've been around for a long time and, you know, every 10 years, the industry just makes like a leap, um,
00:29:18
Speaker
The games that we're making now compared to the 90s, as far as the software and just even the makeup of the game, it's amazing.
00:29:27
Speaker
Well, we were talking earlier, too.
00:29:28
Speaker
You started out in the 80s at Gottlieb.
00:29:32
Speaker
You've been through a couple decades in this industry.
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah, I worked for Premier Gottlieb for three years.
00:29:39
Speaker
In 1990, I was hired by Data East.
00:29:44
Speaker
And they had just had Simpsons started on the line when I, when I started working with the ladies.
00:29:50
Speaker
And you probably now was guns and roses, your first like experience with working with a band for, for a layout.
00:30:00
Speaker
And this is the old, this is the old version, right?
00:30:02
Speaker
And this is the original, the, with the G and R ramps.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:07
Speaker
Some people didn't know about that.
00:30:09
Speaker
that was something.
00:30:10
Speaker
Are you serious?
00:30:10
Speaker
No, that was something that slash, uh, he said, Hey, can you make a ramp look like a G and another one look like an R?
00:30:16
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, I could do whatever you want.
00:30:20
Speaker
You're the boss.
00:30:21
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:30:23
Speaker
So it was kind of cool when we did that game, uh, you know, slash come, came out and hung out at the factory.
00:30:29
Speaker
You know, we got there about, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon and hung out with us and we were there till midnight working.
00:30:34
Speaker
Um,
00:30:35
Speaker
We were passing around a bottle of Jack Daniels and I can't drink bourbon or whiskey or anything like that.
00:30:41
Speaker
If it was tequila, I would have been good with it.
00:30:43
Speaker
But we were walking around, passing around a bottle of Jack Daniels and stuff like that.
00:30:48
Speaker
And it ended up being emptied and the programmer, Neil Falconer,
00:30:55
Speaker
had the bottle.
00:30:56
Speaker
And when he retired, he, he brought it up and, and handed it to me.
00:31:00
Speaker
So I have, I have that.
00:31:02
Speaker
You have the, the OG, the, the slash Jack bourbon bottle slash Jack Daniels bottle.
00:31:08
Speaker
Yes.
00:31:08
Speaker
No, Jack.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:10
Speaker
So yeah, but that was, that was a really interesting project to work on.
00:31:14
Speaker
And that was definitely first, first experience working with a rock and roll band.
Star Wars Pinball: A Case Study
00:31:20
Speaker
Speaking of Scott's ringtone that was Star Wars, how crazy was it?
00:31:25
Speaker
The first game you get to design at Data East was Star Wars.
00:31:28
Speaker
It was Star Wars.
00:31:29
Speaker
It started out as Jurassic.
00:31:31
Speaker
Well, it wasn't even Jurassic Park.
00:31:33
Speaker
When I first started to work there, Joe Kamenko asked me to start thinking dinosaurs.
00:31:39
Speaker
He goes, I want a dinosaur to move around and do stuff and eat a ball.
00:31:45
Speaker
So I made this mechanism.
00:31:47
Speaker
I took a pretty good sized Godzilla model, roto molded plastic.
00:31:55
Speaker
And I started laying out this.
00:31:57
Speaker
I laid it out.
00:31:59
Speaker
And then I started laying out this mechanism around it and in it.
00:32:02
Speaker
And I made it throw pinballs like you saw later on the Franken, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.
00:32:08
Speaker
And then I made it pivot back and forth.
00:32:10
Speaker
And I put a magnet way in the back of its mouth and it bent over.
00:32:14
Speaker
and it leaned down to the playfield and it sucked the ball off a magnet on the playfield into its mouth and then it would go back up and it would deposit it into a pit.
00:32:24
Speaker
So I started working on that and then I guess Jurassic Park then came about maybe months later.
00:32:32
Speaker
So I was getting pretty far into this dinosaur layout and Joe came to me and told me that they were making a movie
00:32:41
Speaker
Spielberg was making a movie called Jurassic Park about dinosaurs, but he said he really wanted to do the game.
00:32:47
Speaker
And he asked me to change my game into Star Wars.
00:32:51
Speaker
And I was like, what?
00:32:53
Speaker
I'm like, ah.
00:32:55
Speaker
So I took the dinosaur out and I put the Death Star in its place.
00:33:00
Speaker
And then I wanted R2-D2 in the game.
00:33:02
Speaker
So I put him over on the other side and re-laid out a lot of the line work and stuff like that.
00:33:07
Speaker
So that's how that came about.
00:33:09
Speaker
And I remember some people came to me and said, Star Wars, gosh, who's going to remember that?
00:33:14
Speaker
And I'm like, a lot of people are going to remember that.
00:33:17
Speaker
And we sold a lot of it, too.
00:33:19
Speaker
I mean, it was the right game at the right time.
00:33:22
Speaker
Dot Matrix was just starting to come into play and starting to fill in arcades and outdate LED display games, alphanumerics and stuff.
00:33:33
Speaker
And that game and Lethal Weapon 3, we sold tons of it.
00:33:39
Speaker
Tons of both of those games.
00:33:43
Speaker
But yeah.
00:33:43
Speaker
So where was the dinosaur supposed to be on Star Wars?
00:33:46
Speaker
I've got it pulled up.
00:33:47
Speaker
No, the dinosaur was part of a dinosaur game that I was working on.
00:33:50
Speaker
Oh, gotcha.
00:33:51
Speaker
And then they swapped themes on me.
00:33:52
Speaker
They're like, you want to do Star Wars?
00:33:54
Speaker
And I'm like, sure.
00:33:55
Speaker
They said, I think this will sell a lot of games.
Licensing's Role in Pinball Success
00:34:00
Speaker
Well, that was always the key with, well, Data East and then Stern is that
00:34:07
Speaker
that was really when people started discovering that licensing made a huge difference on the marketability of a game.
00:34:14
Speaker
Well, you can call a distributor and say, hey, I got Jurassic Park coming.
00:34:19
Speaker
Or I've got, you know, you know, you know, monkey and around coming, you know, if you give them a non-licensed theme, they want samples and they want to test it before they place orders.
00:34:30
Speaker
You know, but if you tell me you have Star Wars coming, they're like, yeah, I'll take a couple of containers.
00:34:36
Speaker
so with with you working so it says on the notes that you did work on jurassic park did you happen to work on jurassic park i did some work on jurassic park and then later on i did the lost world game can i ask and maybe this is like a forbidden territory maybe because it's so old it doesn't really matter anymore is there a reason jurassic park is very similar to uh to whirlwind for play out play field whirlwind yeah really
00:35:04
Speaker
You mean Data East Jurassic Park?
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah, Data East Jurassic Park's layout is very similar.
00:35:10
Speaker
I think it looks more like Funhaus than Whirlwind.
00:35:14
Speaker
I mean, think about it.
00:35:16
Speaker
You've got the dinosaur from a side flipper shot on the one side.
00:35:19
Speaker
You've got Rudy on the left.
00:35:20
Speaker
That's true.
00:35:21
Speaker
Vice versa.
00:35:23
Speaker
I thought it looked a little more like Funhaus.
00:35:25
Speaker
Now, I've never even heard anybody say it looked like Whirlwind.
00:35:27
Speaker
I love that.
00:35:28
Speaker
Maybe it's because it's the two holes on the left side like you have on Whirlwind with the shelter or whatnot.
00:35:34
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's possible.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:35
Speaker
With the C and the A shot.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:39
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:40
Speaker
All right.
00:35:41
Speaker
Ramp entrance is a little the same.
00:35:44
Speaker
It has flippers.
00:35:45
Speaker
It has balls.
00:35:46
Speaker
It has balls.
00:35:48
Speaker
Brown spheres that roll around.
00:35:51
Speaker
No, that's interesting.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
I never even heard anybody say that before.
00:35:55
Speaker
I heard a couple of people say, well, it looks kind of like Funhouse.
00:36:00
Speaker
I can see that too.
00:36:02
Speaker
Like Funhouse and whirlwind had a baby.
00:36:04
Speaker
I like how some people take a, they'll take a plan view of somebody's play field and then they'll, yeah.
00:36:10
Speaker
And the overlay over the top of it and show that the shot lanes are all in the same spot.
00:36:15
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:16
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:16
Speaker
But if you have, especially if you have a two flipper game, you realistically have seven, maybe eight shots.
00:36:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:27
Speaker
And so of course that's, that's what you're going to have.
00:36:29
Speaker
If you're, if, if you have a two flipper game, if you have a third flipper, okay.
00:36:33
Speaker
But if you put in nine shots, it's going to be really, really, really challenging.
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:38
Speaker
But well, and, and, and actually I would say American pinball got into that with Houdini when they tried to cram too many shots.
00:36:46
Speaker
I actually liked, I liked that game.
00:36:48
Speaker
I like, I like, I like tight shots, you know, like rushes, a shooters game.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:55
Speaker
Well, Rush, I still, in many ways, I love the game.
00:37:01
Speaker
And sometimes I want to take a sledgehammer to it.
00:37:04
Speaker
Because, man, it is such a buster on me.
00:37:08
Speaker
Okay, I do have a question.
00:37:10
Speaker
Typically, on so many of your games, there is typically a double in-lane on one side.
00:37:17
Speaker
Why?
00:37:18
Speaker
What's the thought process on that?
00:37:19
Speaker
It's a catcher's mitt.
Design Features and Inspirations
00:37:21
Speaker
You know, when I'm playing a normal standard bottom and the ball gets over near the sides, I feel like I'm in peril and I'm freaking out.
00:37:32
Speaker
And when I got that big opening and I got two lanes on the one side, I feel like, you know, ball gets over there.
00:37:38
Speaker
I'm really not that worried about it.
00:37:40
Speaker
Okay.
00:37:41
Speaker
Cause I am really good at bouncing it on the post between the two in lanes and going to the out lane.
00:37:48
Speaker
Like that is if, if I have a special talent in pinball, that is my talent to the outline.
00:37:53
Speaker
You got to shake it back into the game.
00:37:55
Speaker
Okay, you're overestimating my ability.
00:37:59
Speaker
Everybody used to, you know, I was getting teased a little bit about being what people call bored.
00:38:06
Speaker
I saw a girl in an arcade one night, and she had a t-shirt, and it showed the top view of the two return lanes, and the outline showed the ball bouncing out with an arrow following it out the outline.
00:38:18
Speaker
So in the last couple of games, I've actually put rubber there on
00:38:22
Speaker
on that wire form that you were getting bored on to give you a sporting chance to shake it.
00:38:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:38:30
Speaker
Metallica, I was playing Metallica for a while with the outlane posts all the way down, and it was playing a little bit too long, especially with the ball safes, you know, that we added to the game.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, I could see that.
00:38:41
Speaker
So I did move them into the upper position.
00:38:45
Speaker
But it's not really, it doesn't feel, I don't feel like it's killing me, you know.
00:38:51
Speaker
And like, you know, just like Iron Man, if I play Iron Man, I play 10 games.
00:38:55
Speaker
It killed like five or six of them.
00:38:57
Speaker
But then when you get in the zone, you just can't be stopped and you get to Jericho and the hair goes up on the back of your neck.
00:39:03
Speaker
Same thing with Metallica.
00:39:05
Speaker
I'm getting to crank it up a lot easier now.
00:39:08
Speaker
I've noticed.
00:39:10
Speaker
So, yeah, I was going to say when we were there at Stern, I got to crank it up almost every game I played.
00:39:14
Speaker
But then again,
00:39:16
Speaker
Ray Day said that you guys had it set a little easy so that way we could explore the features.
00:39:21
Speaker
You had rubber bands on the album.
00:39:22
Speaker
We should have turned extra ball off at Expo because people were waiting.
00:39:28
Speaker
I think that's the other thing.
00:39:29
Speaker
People were waiting so long to play that game when they finally got their hands on it.
00:39:33
Speaker
They wanted to have the best game they could have.
00:39:36
Speaker
It played long at the show.
00:39:42
Speaker
I watched some of the video.
00:39:43
Speaker
No, it's, you know, guy comes up, he scores 5 million on his first ball.
00:39:46
Speaker
Then he scores 50 on his second ball.
00:39:48
Speaker
And then he scores like 300 on his third ball.
00:39:50
Speaker
Just lit it up.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
And then you have guys behind him, like you're poking him in the back.
00:39:57
Speaker
Hey, get off the game.
00:39:58
Speaker
Can I play now?
00:40:00
Speaker
We all want a chance.
00:40:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:40:02
Speaker
Tell me about the topper into like, how did the topper come about?
00:40:08
Speaker
And tell me about it.
00:40:10
Speaker
I've always said in Joshua, Joshua said it too.
00:40:13
Speaker
The game changer is with expression lights and making it more an immersive experience because music and light shows.
00:40:22
Speaker
And that is the concert experience right there.
00:40:24
Speaker
So tell me about integrating that into this.
00:40:27
Speaker
I had a couple of plans for topper.
00:40:29
Speaker
Um,
00:40:30
Speaker
The band actually wanted a Metallica beacon on top of their game.
00:40:35
Speaker
So I have a seven inch height restriction.
00:40:39
Speaker
You know, can't go over seven inches.
00:40:41
Speaker
Otherwise, some of you folks won't be able to get it in your basement.
00:40:43
Speaker
I have a seven foot ceiling in my basement, so I have no toppers on my games.
00:40:48
Speaker
But I have a height restriction.
00:40:50
Speaker
So I laid out the Metallica logo on.
00:40:53
Speaker
And I actually tried to make it a little bigger than the production model.
00:40:58
Speaker
And I cut off the bottom of the M and the A. And where it sits on the game from a player perspective, if you looked up at it, you could see the logo.
00:41:07
Speaker
But I made the logo bigger, cutting off the bottom of the M and the A. But we were afraid to...
00:41:16
Speaker
We were afraid to show that to licensing because, you know, we were kind of like playing with their logo.
00:41:22
Speaker
So I downsized it a little bit and got the whole logo on the topper and, uh, and went and made it like that.
00:41:28
Speaker
And that's, uh, you know, the, the letters are, you know, the M and the A are, they're, they're this big and I've got a seven inch height.
00:41:35
Speaker
So I just laid that all in there.
00:41:37
Speaker
And then, and then we came up with the, with the design for the topper.
00:41:41
Speaker
Um,
00:41:43
Speaker
It's all RGB.
00:41:45
Speaker
There's four lights that are under the Metallica logo that light up when you collect your band members.
00:41:52
Speaker
Each one of those lights represents one of the band members.
00:41:55
Speaker
So you can look up there and see what your progress is as well as on the play field between the flippers.
00:42:03
Speaker
And it also has like, does it have an extra mode with the topper or is there?
00:42:09
Speaker
We're kind of considering that, yes.
00:42:13
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:14
Speaker
Cause I know that that is like at least a visual representation of your progress in, you know, in multi ball or something like that.
00:42:21
Speaker
So that does help.
00:42:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:23
Speaker
And it also tells you when you also, when you, when you're getting to a injustice for all lady justice.
00:42:30
Speaker
So you've made a ton of band pins.
00:42:33
Speaker
You've had Metallica rush,
00:42:36
Speaker
Aerosmith, Kiss, I'm trying to think, GNR.
00:42:42
Speaker
Who's been your favorite one?
00:42:43
Speaker
Which band are you most partial to out of all these?
00:42:48
Speaker
Like to listen or to work with?
00:42:52
Speaker
That's a trick question.
00:42:55
Speaker
No, I love Rush.
00:42:58
Speaker
Rush is musically, they're probably the most amazing band on the planet.
00:43:05
Speaker
Um, Metallica is just so hard driving and so cool.
00:43:08
Speaker
Uh, they're amazing.
00:43:10
Speaker
Uh, guns and roses is, is awesome.
00:43:13
Speaker
Slash is a really super nice guy.
00:43:14
Speaker
He was, he was working with him through the whole project.
00:43:18
Speaker
Um, uh, I've enjoyed working on all of them.
00:43:21
Speaker
I can't say, uh,
00:43:24
Speaker
Gosh, you know, if you put Metallica and Rush together, two totally different types of music.
00:43:29
Speaker
Different bands.
00:43:30
Speaker
Which one do you like better?
00:43:31
Speaker
Different bands, yeah.
00:43:32
Speaker
They're both just top-notch.
00:43:34
Speaker
They're both tens.
00:43:35
Speaker
They're both in my top two or three favorite bands of all time.
00:43:41
Speaker
It also depends on what mood you're in.
00:43:43
Speaker
There's sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to Metallica.
00:43:45
Speaker
Other times I'm in the mood to listen to Rush.
00:43:47
Speaker
And you can't compare La Via Strangiato with Ride the Lightning.
00:43:54
Speaker
It's a totally different feel.
00:43:56
Speaker
I remember when we first released Rush, people were like, I've heard Limelight and Tom Sawyer.
00:44:01
Speaker
but I don't know anything else that these guys do that's any good.
00:44:04
Speaker
They never played their- And that's probably fair.... on the radio.
00:44:07
Speaker
So now that people have got the game, I have people writing to me saying, Cygnus X1 is the coolest song I've ever heard in my whole life.
00:44:17
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, well, there's two of them.
00:44:19
Speaker
You know, there's one on hemispheres and there's two hours and there's one on farewell to Kings.
00:44:24
Speaker
So I think people that were pinball fans became rush fans.
00:44:29
Speaker
And I think there's a lot of people that were rush fans that have now become pinball fans.
00:44:33
Speaker
We have people, you know, calling us up going, Hey, what else do you have?
00:44:37
Speaker
You know, so you know how it goes.
00:44:38
Speaker
You buy one game, then you have three, then you have five, then you move one out and you buy two or three more.
00:44:44
Speaker
And then you look just like, yeah, there you go.
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
Then you're putting an addition on your house.
00:44:51
Speaker
Okay.
00:44:52
Speaker
I've considered it by the way.
00:44:53
Speaker
Yes, you have.
00:44:56
Speaker
I actually did run into a random guy on a cruise and we were in like a trivia night and it ended up that we both
00:45:06
Speaker
were big rush fans and he had a rush pinball machine.
00:45:09
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:45:10
Speaker
That's funny.
00:45:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:11
Speaker
And so, so it's, it's like you find, you find a niche and finding out like these little fingers into these subgroups that you didn't really have an in with, but having like a, especially a band because any band has a loyal
Metallica Remastered: Success and Reflections
00:45:26
Speaker
following.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yes.
00:45:27
Speaker
So you're going to get a lot of crossover with people who are interested in it.
00:45:31
Speaker
So it might to assume that this Metallica remastered has been an exceptionally good seller.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yes, I think so.
00:45:41
Speaker
Uh, well, you know, we'll find out when we do re-releases.
00:45:43
Speaker
I think, uh, you know, we only made 500 LEs.
00:45:46
Speaker
I think if we made a thousand, they'd all be sold.
00:45:49
Speaker
Um, the premium is gorgeous.
00:45:51
Speaker
I'm, I'm going to, I'm going premium.
00:45:53
Speaker
Um, and, uh, you know, I'm going to put the expression lights in it and,
00:45:58
Speaker
And, you know, somehow I think one of those prototype back glass, Ellie back glasses is going to find its way into it.
00:46:05
Speaker
Yeah, probably.
00:46:07
Speaker
I bet you know a guy, right?
00:46:08
Speaker
I know a guy, yeah.
00:46:13
Speaker
It's a very beautiful game, and it's very well-deserving of one of the top Stern games ever made.
00:46:21
Speaker
I was happy to see a remaster so well-received.
00:46:25
Speaker
If I remember correctly, when we were talking to some of the distributors, they said they had like 80% of their stock sold out before the game was even revealed.
00:46:32
Speaker
But then again, they've already seen the game, but it's like,
00:46:34
Speaker
you know how it's going to play.
00:46:36
Speaker
All they got to see is the cherry.
00:46:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:39
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:39
Speaker
But the challenge is because in some of these games, people are like, well, I already have one.
00:46:45
Speaker
And so, and so the fact that people who are so familiar with this and are such fans of the game, see the new skin on it and say, I don't care if I love the game and I already own one, I'm going to have another one.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yep.
00:47:00
Speaker
And that tells me that you guys did such a good job of modernizing an already modern pen and taking it to the next level.
00:47:09
Speaker
Yeah, some people buy a pro and then they end up liking the game and then later they go and buy a premium, you know, or an LE or something like that.
00:47:18
Speaker
So there's that too.
00:47:22
Speaker
If you could go back in your catalog and pick any game, doesn't matter if it's from Gottlieb or Data East,
00:47:28
Speaker
what one would you want to give the remastered treatment?
00:47:32
Speaker
Tales from the Crypt.
00:47:34
Speaker
Oh, nice.
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, I would probably do Tales again.
00:47:37
Speaker
I think that would be a lot of fun.
00:47:40
Speaker
Occasionally, yeah.
00:47:40
Speaker
That would be a lot of fun, especially with movie clips or TV show clips.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:47
Speaker
The game was kind of shy on, you know, we didn't really follow the movies all that much when we made that game.
00:47:52
Speaker
It was just entertaining, you know, the features that were in it.
00:47:56
Speaker
There were so many of them.
00:47:58
Speaker
and the ball was all over, you know, the crazy wire ramps and the 180 ramp.
00:48:04
Speaker
But it would be cool to redo that and then get Kassir back in the sound booth again and have him do more speech because he was just fabulous.
00:48:13
Speaker
I mean, he did so much ad-libbing when he recorded the first time for it and I still
00:48:18
Speaker
Once in a while, I'll send him a note on Facebook.
00:48:24
Speaker
I went to an arcade and the guy took a picture of me.
00:48:25
Speaker
He had a Tales from the Crypt on the floor.
00:48:27
Speaker
He goes, I got to get a picture of you next to the Tales.
00:48:29
Speaker
And then he sent me the photo and then I forwarded it to Kassir and I talked to him.
00:48:34
Speaker
I hadn't talked to him in like 20 years.
00:48:37
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, I just popped up and started chatting with him on Facebook.
00:48:40
Speaker
He's a very nice guy.
00:48:42
Speaker
I'm sure he'd be glad to do it again.
00:48:47
Speaker
And that is, it is a very unique game.
00:48:49
Speaker
It's, it's something that's, uh, it's very, it's very cool.
00:48:54
Speaker
I played that game once at a tournament and I, on ball one, I made it to the Crypt Jam.
00:48:59
Speaker
I was just unstoppable.
00:49:01
Speaker
I, I, that was, that was so much fun somewhere in New York.
00:49:04
Speaker
I was, I was playing a hundred years ago.
00:49:12
Speaker
93, 94, I think.
00:49:13
Speaker
It says here on Pinside 93.
00:49:17
Speaker
93, yeah.
00:49:18
Speaker
Good, cry me.
00:49:19
Speaker
Time flies when you're having fun, right?
00:49:21
Speaker
Yep.
00:49:23
Speaker
How many games have you been lead designer on?
00:49:26
Speaker
Do you have any idea?
00:49:28
Speaker
I made a list when I went to
John Borg's Career Journey
00:49:30
Speaker
Expo.
00:49:30
Speaker
I gave a seminar and talked about all the games I worked on from the time I started at Gottlieb.
00:49:35
Speaker
to present and uh there were some of them that i just kind of picked at a little bit or helped somebody else on and i made up a list and there were 60 i think there were 60. so somewhere in the 50s um i have to look at that list and and narrow it down you know to see which ones you know how many i was actual lead on um but it's it's it's a lot of games it makes me tired just looking at the list
00:50:02
Speaker
Um, but gosh, a lot of fun.
00:50:04
Speaker
I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, so lucky to, I just got into this, this business by luck.
00:50:11
Speaker
I wasn't trying to get in.
00:50:13
Speaker
Um, I was, uh, I was a draftsman, mechanical engineer, and, uh, I was working in a, uh, at a company that made injection molds.
00:50:23
Speaker
Um, so I was trying to get into mold design, not the actual piece parts, but the molds that make them and designing that.
00:50:30
Speaker
And, uh,
00:50:32
Speaker
And then one day I was looking for, you know, looking for something different, you know, and just looking around at what might be available out there.
00:50:39
Speaker
And I saw an ad in the Tribune and it said it was about the size of a postage stamp.
00:50:43
Speaker
And it said mechanical engineer needed and it had a phone number underneath it.
00:50:47
Speaker
So just for grins, I called it.
00:50:49
Speaker
This guy answers the phone and I'm talking to him.
00:50:53
Speaker
And they said, you know, come on down for an interview, you know, da, da, da, da.
00:50:58
Speaker
They gave me the address.
00:50:59
Speaker
So I walk into this building and it was premier technology and they were in Bensonville at the time.
00:51:03
Speaker
And I walk in and I'm sitting in the lobby and there's pinball back glasses, you know, surrounding the perimeter of the room up by the ceiling.
00:51:11
Speaker
And I'm like, wow, this is a pinball company.
00:51:13
Speaker
How cool is that?
00:51:15
Speaker
And they walked me around and walked me through the factory.
00:51:17
Speaker
I'm like, wow.
00:51:18
Speaker
This is so, so cool.
00:51:20
Speaker
And I played pinball.
00:51:21
Speaker
You know, I was, you know, I was a pinball player.
00:51:25
Speaker
I liked a lot of games and video games, you know, like in the mid 80s and stuff.
00:51:29
Speaker
You know, I was always me and my friends were always at the arcade playing pinball and video games and stuff like that.
00:51:35
Speaker
So they invite me in for an interview.
00:51:37
Speaker
I interview.
00:51:38
Speaker
I see the plant.
00:51:40
Speaker
I was offered another job for a hydraulics manufacturer for more money per year.
00:51:44
Speaker
And I took the job in pinball because I thought it'd be more fun because I'm going to be working with plastic piece parts and sheet metal and, you know, and vacuum forming and all kinds of stuff, you know, and that's what I was studying.
00:51:55
Speaker
I'm like, this would be perfect.
00:51:57
Speaker
And so I ended up taking it and then I just got hooked on it.
00:52:02
Speaker
You know, I got the sickness.
00:52:05
Speaker
I would argue as a mechanical engineer.
00:52:08
Speaker
So that's my major too, by the way.
00:52:10
Speaker
That's what I studied in college.
00:52:12
Speaker
And that is like, that would be the dream job for a mechanical engineer is to work on a pinball machine.
00:52:18
Speaker
Making gadgets and, you know.
00:52:21
Speaker
Exactly.
00:52:22
Speaker
And it takes everything that you have worked on, but it's also fun.
00:52:25
Speaker
You're not working on like a, you know, transmission shaft or something like that.
00:52:29
Speaker
When I hear people complain, I'm like, we could be making taillights for cars here.
00:52:33
Speaker
You know, I mean, you know, wow, look at this, look at this one, you know?
00:52:38
Speaker
So yeah, it's, it's, it's a blast.
00:52:41
Speaker
It's a lot of fun.
00:52:41
Speaker
It's really hard.
00:52:43
Speaker
I mean, you know, anybody who thinks it's easy, it's not, you know, I mean, I've had people, you know,
00:52:48
Speaker
I've had people say, oh, how come you didn't do this or how come you didn't do that?
00:52:52
Speaker
And I'm like, some of those people, I want to just send them a piece of plywood and tell them to come back and see me in six months.
00:52:59
Speaker
I want to see what you've got.
00:53:04
Speaker
But yeah, everything nowadays is, if you're an artist and you bake a painting, people are going to critique it.
00:53:10
Speaker
People are going to love it.
00:53:11
Speaker
And that's what I do.
00:53:14
Speaker
So I have pretty, pretty thick skin.
00:53:17
Speaker
You know, sometimes I get a little, a little, I get a little perturbed, you know, like when Rush, when Rush released, I had some guy, the first post on my Facebook page was some guy, he wrote, he goes, he goes, hey, Borg, he goes, why do you want to do about a game about a bunch of guys that never got any?
00:53:33
Speaker
And I was like, are you freaking kidding me?
00:53:35
Speaker
I wrote him back.
00:53:36
Speaker
I sent him a big emoji of like a troll.
00:53:39
Speaker
And I just left it at that.
00:53:41
Speaker
You know, those guys, I remember seeing an interview with Gene Simmons and he said that we were touring with Rush and he said he had six girls wait outside of his room after the concert.
00:53:52
Speaker
And these guys, Rush could have had the same exact thing.
00:53:55
Speaker
And he said those guys were in their room practicing for songs for their next album.
00:54:01
Speaker
You know, they were hearing stuff that was going to be coming on there, just them jamming, you know, in their in their room.
00:54:07
Speaker
They, they, you know, that's why they're, that's why they're musically a hundred times better.
00:54:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:16
Speaker
I have Gene coming after me.
00:54:18
Speaker
Um, yeah, no, okay.
00:54:21
Speaker
They're, they're, they're three of probably, you know, the most amazing musicians on the planet and they do really well together.
00:54:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:29
Speaker
I would argue, I don't even think Gene Simmons would counteract that because if you look at Gene Simmons, like there's a, I'm summarizing a quote, but he talked about in the seventies, everybody wanted to be the next Led Zeppelin.
Music and Marketing in Pinball
00:54:44
Speaker
I wanted to be the next Coca-Cola.
00:54:46
Speaker
Oh, interesting.
00:54:48
Speaker
And so if you look at everything Kiss has done, it is about brand and marketing.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:56
Speaker
And they took it to the next level on that.
00:55:00
Speaker
Gene Simmons is brilliant.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:03
Speaker
He's a brilliant business guy.
00:55:05
Speaker
Everything.
00:55:06
Speaker
You can buy coasters and coffee cups and you can buy decals for your car.
00:55:13
Speaker
You can buy masks.
00:55:14
Speaker
Coffins actually too, if I remember correctly.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:19
Speaker
Kiss coffin.
00:55:19
Speaker
Wow.
00:55:19
Speaker
That was.
00:55:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:21
Speaker
Anything.
00:55:23
Speaker
Crazy.
00:55:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:24
Speaker
No.
00:55:25
Speaker
I don't know many musicians that have looked at Rush and were like, I can play better than that.
00:55:31
Speaker
They're on a level of their own.
00:55:33
Speaker
A musician's band, actually.
00:55:37
Speaker
I can't remember who it was, but it was actually a guy in a band.
00:55:42
Speaker
I'm sure someone will send me, some Rush fan will tell me, but it was a guy who was like, they were going to play a Rush song and he was going to play Geddes Park.
00:55:52
Speaker
And he said, I thought I could just learn it in an hour or something like that.
00:55:57
Speaker
He's like, a day or two later, I was barely getting it down.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:04
Speaker
That's the level that Geddy Lee took.
00:56:08
Speaker
He played lead bass and singing at the same time.
00:56:11
Speaker
That's not easy.
00:56:13
Speaker
Not at all.
00:56:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:15
Speaker
He's playing keyboard, and then he's singing.
00:56:19
Speaker
That's just amazing.
00:56:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:25
Speaker
I can't play and sing at the same time.
00:56:27
Speaker
I can't either.
00:56:29
Speaker
I just can't.
00:56:30
Speaker
I did, though.
00:56:31
Speaker
I did just start retaking guitar lessons.
00:56:35
Speaker
So I'm trying to build up the calluses on my fingers.
00:56:38
Speaker
My fingers are all tingly and numb right now.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:42
Speaker
Yep.
00:56:42
Speaker
Yeah, after a while, they get to be like rocks.
00:56:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:47
Speaker
Well, even did you listen to Geddy Lee's autobiography?
00:56:51
Speaker
Yes.
00:56:52
Speaker
Yeah, and the part where he talked about his fingers have so much calluses on them that he can take a pin and put them in his finger and he doesn't feel it?
00:57:02
Speaker
Yeah, I had a little accident and I smashed my index finger like I was telling you guys about earlier.
00:57:08
Speaker
And so I just started playing like maybe three weeks ago and my index finger hurts.
00:57:15
Speaker
I mean, it hurts when I play.
00:57:16
Speaker
I mean, I'm building that callus back up again.
00:57:19
Speaker
I can play for like 10 minutes and I'm like, ah.
00:57:21
Speaker
You know, what do you play?
00:57:24
Speaker
What do you like to play?
00:57:25
Speaker
I have a strat.
00:57:27
Speaker
I like to play Rush.
00:57:29
Speaker
I like some Zeppelin stuff.
00:57:31
Speaker
I make up a lot of my own, my own stuff.
00:57:34
Speaker
Once in a while, you know, I'll be sitting around playing it, you know, it, you know.
00:57:39
Speaker
10 o'clock midnight or something like that, you know, post a YouTube video.
00:57:43
Speaker
So I'm not great.
00:57:44
Speaker
I can entertain for maybe probably about a half an hour, 45 minutes, and then I'm about done.
00:57:50
Speaker
But it's a lot of fun.
00:57:51
Speaker
It's fun to play.
00:57:54
Speaker
It is.
00:57:55
Speaker
I'd recommend to anyone to pick up a guitar and start learning because there's so many easy avenues to do it now, too.
00:58:00
Speaker
I mean, between musician and just there's so many, so many ways to learn guitar now.
00:58:05
Speaker
There's no reason.
00:58:05
Speaker
There's no excuse not to.
00:58:07
Speaker
Yeah, just the YouTube videos, you know, with them showing you note by note and, you know, the tab that's available now, you know, compared to how it was 30 years ago where you just had to just figure it out, listen and try to try to figure it out.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:22
Speaker
Well, Josh was able to work out who's the guitar builder.
00:58:28
Speaker
So we're both getting guitars that have the play field cut out.
00:58:32
Speaker
So mine's going to be Silver Ball Mania.
00:58:34
Speaker
And you got Earthshaker, right, Josh?
00:58:36
Speaker
Yep, I did.
00:58:37
Speaker
It's the same guy that makes all of Ed Robertson's guitars.
00:58:42
Speaker
Yes.
00:58:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:43
Speaker
Yep.
00:58:43
Speaker
Yeah, I saw Ed's guitars.
00:58:45
Speaker
It's got LED lights that light up while he's playing.
00:58:48
Speaker
It's cool.
00:58:51
Speaker
He just got that Dolly Parton.
00:58:54
Speaker
I guess he got like a Dolly Parton telly.
00:58:56
Speaker
It's pretty cool.
00:58:57
Speaker
Really?
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:58
Speaker
I haven't seen that one yet.
00:58:58
Speaker
I'll have to write him and tell him something.
00:59:01
Speaker
Any chance, John, that your next game is a Dolly Parton remastered?
00:59:06
Speaker
Actually, I shouldn't be telling you guys this, but I'm going to start working on On Golden Pond.
Creative Concepts: Humorous Themes
00:59:12
Speaker
No, I'm just kidding.
00:59:14
Speaker
That's what I usually tell if everybody, if somebody, you know, will write me and say, Hey, you know, I won't tell anybody, but what are you working on?
00:59:19
Speaker
I'm like, I'm working on a golden pond.
00:59:22
Speaker
Or I'll say, you know, like a saved by the bell.
00:59:25
Speaker
You know, you have this screech Ellie, you know?
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:31
Speaker
Family matters.
00:59:32
Speaker
Family matters.
00:59:34
Speaker
Mods coming out next year.
00:59:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
That's the golden girls before golden girls.
00:59:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:41
Speaker
Right.
00:59:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:42
Speaker
We're going old school.
00:59:43
Speaker
We're going to go quantum leap.
00:59:45
Speaker
We're going way back to the 70s.
00:59:47
Speaker
Hey, Brady Bunch.
00:59:48
Speaker
We could do a Brady Bunch one.
00:59:50
Speaker
And the best thing you get a call out, sure, Jan.
00:59:54
Speaker
That would be hilarious.
00:59:55
Speaker
You'd have to give something that's just so ridiculous.
00:59:58
Speaker
The next day it's on Pinside.
01:00:01
Speaker
Hey, guess what?
01:00:06
Speaker
Bork's doing quantum leap.
01:00:08
Speaker
Quantum leap, yeah.
01:00:10
Speaker
Cool.
01:00:11
Speaker
We appreciate you coming on and talking Metallica with us, Borg.
01:00:14
Speaker
Is there anything that you don't feel like we've asked that you've, you've wanted to talk about?
01:00:20
Speaker
I'll probably think about it in an hour and I'll go, Oh yeah, talk about that.
01:00:26
Speaker
No, I think we did a pretty good job of covering it.
01:00:29
Speaker
So, yeah.
01:00:30
Speaker
Thank you so much.
01:00:31
Speaker
I really have been looking forward to this interview for a few years.
01:00:35
Speaker
So thank you so much for coming on.
01:00:37
Speaker
Thank you guys.
01:00:38
Speaker
We appreciate your time.
01:00:40
Speaker
My pleasure.
01:00:41
Speaker
Well, if you want, if you want someone to get ahold of you, how do they get ahold of you, John?
01:00:46
Speaker
Facebook and Facebook messenger is usually the best, good, good place to get ahold of me.
01:00:50
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:51
Speaker
I don't want my email at work to over flood.
01:00:55
Speaker
Well, cut that out so you don't have to worry about it.
01:00:57
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:58
Speaker
Okay.
01:00:58
Speaker
Thanks.
01:01:01
Speaker
And your social security number and your personal cell phone number.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:05
Speaker
I had somebody, I had a, I had a scammer.
01:01:08
Speaker
He called me on the phone one day and he was asking for, you know, my taxes are way behind.
01:01:14
Speaker
I owe $20,000, you know, if you give us your credit card, you know, we can take care of it right now and you won't, you know, you won't have to worry about being arrested.
01:01:24
Speaker
And I was like, oh, geez, hold on a second.
01:01:25
Speaker
Let me get my card.
01:01:27
Speaker
And then I kept reading him 17 numbers.
01:01:32
Speaker
I gave him an extra number.
01:01:33
Speaker
He's like, okay.
01:01:34
Speaker
I'm like, five, eight, three, two, six.
01:01:41
Speaker
I'm reading the numbers real slow and I gave him an extra number.
01:01:43
Speaker
He's like, that's too many numbers.
01:01:45
Speaker
I'm like, could you read that back to me?
01:01:46
Speaker
So I, yeah.
01:01:50
Speaker
Yeah, I did the same thing.
01:01:52
Speaker
I did the same thing one time and I was talking to this guy for like 30 minutes saying I was super concerned and I kept giving him like a wrong credit card.
01:02:02
Speaker
And finally he said, this does not appear to be a valid credit card.
01:02:08
Speaker
And I said, this does not appear to be a valid offer.
01:02:10
Speaker
Yes.
01:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, I had one.
01:02:13
Speaker
Then I think he swore at me.
01:02:14
Speaker
Yeah, I had a guy, he swore at me and he told me that he was going to blank my wife
01:02:20
Speaker
And I told him, I go, I'm not married.
01:02:22
Speaker
I go, what's your wife look like?
01:02:25
Speaker
And then he hung up on me.
01:02:28
Speaker
I'm not married.
01:02:32
Speaker
So yeah.
01:02:33
Speaker
Nice.
01:02:33
Speaker
That's awesome.
01:02:35
Speaker
If you want to get ahold of us, we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com.
01:02:39
Speaker
You can find us on all the socials, Facebook, Instagram, X, Twitch, YouTube, subscribe, all that jazz.
01:02:47
Speaker
Uh,
01:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, Scott, what do you got for us?
01:02:49
Speaker
Send us off.
01:02:51
Speaker
Go buy Metallica.
01:02:52
Speaker
I'll probably see you guys at the factory next time you come in.