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King Kong vs Jaws!
1.5k Plays18 days ago
Is releasing a Jaws 50th going to kill Kong sales? Also we're talking about the Harry Potter Delay, Predator Pinball, and Cactus Canyon Delay.
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Transcript
Pinball Release Delays Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Jaws 50th anniversary Jersey Jack pinball delayed Harry Potter. Not really pinball brothers predator and CGC cactus Canyon delayed all that plus more.
00:00:12
Speaker
This is loser kid pinball podcast.
00:00:21
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into loser kid pinball podcast. I am Josh Roop with me, my co-captain Scott Larson and Scott. We got quite the episode today where it's, there's been a rumor mill just going wild, but there's plenty of games coming out, including Kong that just released.
00:00:37
Speaker
Plus some other rumored games. Where are you going to get your games? If you're buying these games, I'll call Zach and Nicole mini flipping out pinball. Uh, they've always hooked me up. I did just place an order. Uh, and so I'm really excited. to get that and i'm i'm sure you're getting one too right i am didn't i hear that what are you getting foo fighters is officially leaving uh i made a deal with zach to do a trade-in he gave me a heck of a deal considering the state foo fighters it's not okay they're not selling a lot but it's still a great game so but yeah but he gave you fair market he gave me very fair market value um he's taking care of shipping like
00:01:15
Speaker
I'm don't know how he's going to make money, but Hey, that's his deal. Not ours.
Pinball Game Trading and Market Value
00:01:20
Speaker
Thanks Zach for taking care of us. It's amazing. Nice. But yeah, like, okay. So like I just announced, there is a ton of stuff coming down the pipeline. Yep.
00:01:30
Speaker
First let's talk Stern. Everyone wants to talk Stern, right? King Kong just released. People are loving it. The premium is amazing. You went out to the media day. Yep. I've heard nothing but positive about this game.
00:01:41
Speaker
I I'm, I'm excited to get my pro. It should be here next week. Now tell me about that. Cause we did talk back and forth. So tell me what now first off, Now you had Jurassic Park, right?
00:01:53
Speaker
Correct. you still have it? I can't tell. No, I sold my Jurassic Park. Okay, but um but you had the pro version, right? Correct. And I thought the pro was was very good, especially for the price and everything. I felt like the premium didn't add enough features to justify the difference.
00:02:09
Speaker
And I felt that the code is amazing. yeah The thing about Jurassic Park, I feel like the code can get a little stale. Okay. um I really think... Elwin came into his own during Avengers.
00:02:23
Speaker
Like, I know people don't really like that code, but there was a lot of experimenting there that ended up making Godzilla what it is nowadays and jaws. and worst you Well, with the ball paths too, I would say Avengers is really well. He, where he perfected the long ball paths and the, the visual candy that you see with the ball moving around.
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, not only that, but like he perfected, especially with Godzilla and jaws, the, the fact that like just by
Kong Game Analysis and Comparison
00:02:51
Speaker
playing the game, you get rewarded, right? Like, yeah like Godzilla is a great example. you know I'm hitting Tesla targets on accident during a multi-ball.
00:02:59
Speaker
That's moving towards actual Tesla mode that can play in the background. Just stuff like that. you know And he does that in Jaws too with the beachgoers and stuff like that. and And that's really kind of started in that Godzilla era, but we' we're seeing hints of it in Avengers.
00:03:15
Speaker
And so like Kong is a no-brainer brainer to me. That's the thing. is like I really would like the premium because like the Kong figure is awesome. But as I sat down and really evaluated the game, the difference between the two,
00:03:28
Speaker
The Kong's not really much of a game-changing feature, right? like it it is No. the The building on Godzilla literally changes the game, the ba ball pass and stuff like that.
00:03:40
Speaker
And the subway doesn't really... like It's cool. It holds the balls. It's a physical ball lock. But you're not really changing much to the game because of it. And really, all the ball passes are the same. There's drop targets. i mean And you're taking out the spider and the gong. And really, the gong is like...
00:03:55
Speaker
The gong is dangerous, actually. yeah but Okay. and We talked about this last time. We talked about that with the gong, the danger shot is on the right. Yeah. Because you're trying to get there and the gong can actually mess you up. It can be, you know, it can fight back.
00:04:10
Speaker
The gong can fight back. ah But on the premium on the left side, you have the spider that kind of grabs the ball. it's kind of reversed on the pro, like the, the left shot, that's a little more dangerous because it doesn't have the, the spider that comes down and grabs the ball.
00:04:25
Speaker
yeah And you get a lot more of that unpredictability with that shot. Well, and like Elwin told us like that, that actually is, that's, magnet controlled yeah it's not on ah it's not a coil or anything like that i half wonder if you could actually just kind of buy a secondary market thing if someone knows about a secondary market spider i could put on the pro i wouldn't be opposed to it like you should put one of those leaper jumpers like from milliliter yeah that'd be awesome or do like a stegosaurus or something like that like i don't know there's just there's so much you can do with it yeah but okay so here's my question i'm going to be asking this question throughout the whole episode okay
00:05:00
Speaker
Okay. Kong has released.
Jaws 50th Release Impact on Distributors
00:05:02
Speaker
It's only been out there. Like they're shipping them now. Like the LEDs have already went out, but we're finally shipping premiums and pros, but we've now heard the rumor and it's where there's smoke. There's fire.
00:05:12
Speaker
Usually Jaws 50th could be coming out in July. Is it that a good decision or a terrible decision? Because are we cutting off the legs of Kong at this point with Jaws? I don't think you are. um Jaws 50. Okay. Jurassic Park 30.
00:05:36
Speaker
Now, they took some flack for this because it was they released it as an LE. Now, I've got the old l LE over here, which is great. I love the look of it. the They changed the look. They upgraded it. And so, they did Jurassic Park 30. But they also did it like, what, like five years later?
00:05:53
Speaker
Like six years later. Okay. that some And so my friend who actually sold me the original Gary, when he sold me the, the Jurassic park, he ended up buying the Jurassic park 30th, uh, like the, know, that edition.
00:06:07
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. But, um, When you have a special decal edition, now, now, uh, Churn has done this a lot. So I walk with me on this. They, they had two Metallica, um, Ellie's right.
00:06:24
Speaker
Yeah. They had the back in black and they had the, uh, master of puppets, right. Then you also had ACDC. So they had the leather be rock and they had the back in black. Okay. Yeah.
00:06:36
Speaker
They also the Lucy edition, which was kind of that, Hey, it's a premium, but it's, you know, it's, uh, they've done this with Batman, right? They have the, the, the Catwoman edition. Yeah.
00:06:46
Speaker
Okay. And with John now I I'm a hundred percent certain that they pivoted and with, um, Godzilla 70th, they decided to go black and white and to put it at the premium.
00:07:00
Speaker
I I'm a hundred percent convinced that was supposed to be an L.E. yeah But they they got they got blowback from the LE purchasers because they're like, yeah you're devaluing my game because you're offering more LEs.
00:07:14
Speaker
yeah i I am not one of those people who subscribe to that. I don't really care about having something that someone else doesn't. But I do understand the people who that they do value that. It's going to be a big deal. okay So that was different.
00:07:30
Speaker
enough than the other Godzilla and having the black and white with a retro Godzilla really fits the theme. Okay. So what are they going to do with with Jaws fifty If they do that, are they going to do a black and white? Cause it's, it's a seventies movie. It's not really originally black and white.
00:07:51
Speaker
Um, are they just going to have a different art package? Are they going to do, Is it really going to push people over to buy ah Jaws if they haven't already purchased a Jaws? what I don't think so. What do you think?
00:08:05
Speaker
I don't know. i think it'll sell. i do think it'll sell, but I don't think it's going to kill Kong. So I don't think it'll kill Kong because from my understanding, Kong is like the third best selling LE that has released in the last decade. Like I can see that it it has just, the LEs have went out the door. They're, they're all gone.
00:08:27
Speaker
Here's my concern.
Economic Impact of New Game Releases
00:08:29
Speaker
You have plenty of distributors and dealers who bought plenty of stock on King Kong. Right. And they're sitting on this stock there.
00:08:38
Speaker
They're slowly trickling it out. All of a sudden you release a Godzilla 50th or a Jaws 50th. And granted it's limited quantities. Like we're not going to be producing a ton of these.
00:08:49
Speaker
But still, asking... Like a single run or a double run or something like that. But you're essentially pitting Elwynn versus Elwynn. Jaws is a more desirable theme, in my opinion, versus the King Kong that came out.
00:09:03
Speaker
I think so. I think Jaws... You like Jaws over King Kong, huh? I think theme-wise, I do. Okay. I don't know about gameplay-wise. No, no but i'm That's what I'm talking about, theme-wise.
00:09:14
Speaker
i I think... i yeah I understand. i understand what you're saying and like marketability. I am on the, I'm on the other side though.
00:09:25
Speaker
I look at King Kong and I think King Kong is a more desirable theme for me. Maybe not for everybody, but for me, I would rather have a King Kong than a Jaws. But you just had dealers and distributors fork out hundreds of thousands of dollars and then not even like a month or two later. Fair. It's like, surprise, we have another one. Now fork out even more money where we're having a hard time.
00:09:48
Speaker
Like, but you want to talk about? Economics? What you want to talk about? Like just inventory just. And here's the thing. Like Stern's making their money. Like sure they're not slowing down because it's like, Every time we release another hell one, it's money in the bank. But the problem is, is these are backing up at dealers. And if dealers don't know how to sell these or how to, and if they don't have the, door if they don't have the, the ability to buy. Yeah.
00:10:11
Speaker
Um, I, I don't think it's going to, if they do a 50th, I doubt it'll be a huge run. Yeah. I, I would suspect that they may be able to make, you know, who knows, maybe 500 of these. Yeah.
00:10:25
Speaker
yeah But how many jaws? I guarantee they made 10,000 jaws at least. Yeah. You know, Godzilla got, it if they still released the figures on Godzilla, Godzilla could actually be on track to be one of the best selling machines of all time.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah. My understanding, it is the u best selling LCD Stern. So, and that's outdoing star Wars of all things, which, which does surprise me, but but it's,
00:10:54
Speaker
You know, i it i could be wrong on those numbers, but just, okay. Either way, there's a possibility that Godzilla could, and if they release the numbers, I would not be surprised. Okay.
00:11:07
Speaker
It's at least dominating the era. Yeah. It's definitely dominating the era. So the era and the last time a single game dominated an era was like Adam's family or twilight zone. Right?
00:11:19
Speaker
Yeah. And so we're talking 30 years later to get a, a game that has the same monster level appeal. Well, and here's the problem too. Like Kong, like Kong is really good. Like it, it's an L one. Like it's going to shoot amazing. You know what you're getting. The code's going to be fantastic. Like, but here's the thing though. Like, so you've got Jaws 50th, then the rumored star Wars. And I've heard on the pinball show they talked about was the, the prequel trilogy.
00:11:47
Speaker
I don't think it is. I don't think it I'm hearing Emperor Strikes Back. i I don't think it is that either. And some people are like, maybe it's Andor. Okay, that's where I think it is. And maybe is. I think it's Andor. Because if you look at Mandalorian, Mandalorian came out in the second season.
00:12:05
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Andor, while it may not be as huge as the Mandalorian, the mandedalorian If you look at the ratings of Andor, it is or the roof the best. yes and when you And you know that this is the they they're only doing two seasons of it.
00:12:26
Speaker
And then it goes right into Rogue One. So not only that, it's got the best reviews from the generation that's buying pinball machines. Yes, 100%. Yeah. and and that that And it's not even close. And actually, ka i was i was interesting though because I was interested because I i heard Zack and Dennis talking about Obi-Wan. And I heard Dennis kind of dogging on Obi-Wan.
00:12:50
Speaker
I totally agree that the first three episodes... were, um, they they were slow. Yeah. I would argue the last three episodes were really good. And by the way, if you don't get choked up at the end when he's fighting Anakin Skywalker, then you have no soul.
00:13:09
Speaker
I'm sorry. You have no soul. So, okay. So Kong jaws is right behind it. We've got supposedly star Wars. At some point, we know that a remake's coming. The rumor is the walking dead. Yeah.
00:13:21
Speaker
This is all within, from here to October. and then, yeah. Ooh. Uh, I mean, and and my understanding is too, cause people like, well, when's what's Borg doing? Is he obviously going to walking dead?
00:13:33
Speaker
My understanding he's doing double duty. He's doing the star Wars title and the walking dead. So he'll have two tiles released within a month or two of each other. And my guess, this is, this is just
Speculation on Future Pinball Releases
00:13:45
Speaker
an educated guess.
00:13:46
Speaker
Dwight has said multiple times, if it's a star Wars theme, he's on code. Like he's got seniority and he, I don't know. I would argue, let someone else try. Okay. Dwight, by the way, is the most passionate person you will ever meet yes in pinball.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yes. It's okay. I'll put it this way. If you are in the dungeons and dragons, you want to Dwight as the dungeon master. Yeah. Like so maybe he is motivated to do that. However, I would argue,
00:14:18
Speaker
okay If Dwight did that, um ah get, okay. The last time Dwight and Borg teamed up. Mandalorian. No, not sorry. That was that Munsters.
00:14:29
Speaker
It was Ninja Turtles. Okay. Okay. In 2021. i I would just be surprised though. If Dwight did two games in the, I know that's a lot.
00:14:43
Speaker
It is a lot, but if you look at it from this perspective, Dwight's more doing the rule set and some of the coding. Because like with D&D, didn't they have like seven coders on that game or something like that? Sure, but Dwight's also not known for fast development.
00:14:57
Speaker
I agree. and And obviously, there's some game-breaking bugs in D&D that need to be fixed. Okay, there tend to be. I love Dwight. but there tend to be exploits that high level players figure out really quickly.
00:15:11
Speaker
It's not even exploits. Like, so the big rumor or the big thing right now is in D and d if you get to like level three in the dungeon crawling and you get like a specific creature, it crashes the whole game and it resets. Okay. But that, yeah, but that's like, that, that's more of a, uh, that's, that's actually nuts and bolts on the code.
00:15:30
Speaker
That's not engineering the rule set and doing all that kind of stuff. But, but my point being is so, so Dwight's more than likely in my end, this is just, okay. This is my educated guess.
00:15:40
Speaker
He's more than likely on the star Wars title. And then my guess is Ray day would be back on the walking dead tuning, fine tuning. Right. Yeah. Kind of doing the Metallica thing. Like, especially well that he's a high level player and a high level player. Well, he's also, okay.
00:15:54
Speaker
I I'm calling out there. Ray day is the heir apparent to Lyman on code. Okay. And, and this is me a hundred percent respecting Lyman's legacy, respecting everything Lyman has done.
00:16:08
Speaker
and, Ray Day has the chops to take it to Lyman level and maybe continuing along that path. I know nobody who looked at what he did with Metallica and felt like it was anything but an augmented rule set.
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, not only that, like Foo Fighters behind me, I don't understand. if you If you're looking for a good game for your collection, Ray Day did an amazing job on that code set. I don't fully understand why people are like,
00:16:40
Speaker
for a pro, I'm only going to pay 4,000. It's like, why? Like the game is, it stands above the rest. It holds its own. It's the code is in my opinion right now, it's good. Number one is Keith. That one with Rick Nagel.
00:16:54
Speaker
Number two is Ray day. I don't know who else. ah Like, that and that's not a dog on anyone else it's just they are that good and they have a very okay amazing understanding of rule sets and how they should play with the player during gameplay you're not saying other people aren't doing a great job what you are saying is that you see you connect differently with their rule sets and i would and you can argue very easily that many people connect with the Elwin product because he sells easily 50% of Stern's games. Okay.
00:17:31
Speaker
Now being at Ray, I actually has done some interesting, he even made Led Zeppelin playable because even though the, the layout is pretty bland, but he was able to do that with, start with, and I know he was working with Tim on the, on these things, but you have to understand that,
00:17:51
Speaker
Ray Day is such an elite player that he thinks of all these things all the time. Yeah. And he, he is the embodiment of pinball. And so in many ways, that's, that's a lot of how Lyman was. Lyman was always thinking about rule rule sets, tinkering on different things.
00:18:09
Speaker
Yep. So back to my original question, okay just one word answer.
Multiple Game Release Strategy Evaluation
00:18:13
Speaker
So it was good decision or a terrible decision that Stern is releasing what they are right now. And is it going to undercut Kong?
00:18:21
Speaker
Good decision. um In the grand scheme of things, I think they're competing for slightly different my audiences. Okay.
00:18:36
Speaker
I'm not sure a 50th Jaws moves the needle like a 70th Godzilla did. Yeah. um it But it depends on what the what the art does. I mean, is Michael going to do a new art package for that? Or is he so art will change how people want to, to buy a package.
00:18:55
Speaker
Yeah. and If it's going to be a new art package and he does something different, kind of like the Lucy edition or the, or the cat woman edition, then maybe people like, I want that art package, but we know the game, the game's a solid game.
00:19:09
Speaker
And it's not like people have bought it and sold it. The people who bought jaws under the original ah art package already bought it. Yeah. And that's actually the one l one that I,
00:19:21
Speaker
haven't bought because the theme didn't connect me with me like the other themes. Gotcha. Alrighty. Let's move on to ah the next one. okay You didn't tell me like, what did you think? Like you you asked me a question. Do you think it's a good idea?
00:19:36
Speaker
Um, you think it's going to change? Do you think I think it's a terrible decision? I think it puts way too much pressure back on district distributors and dealers to take more product when the product that they have right now may or may not be selling.
00:19:49
Speaker
i I would argue it's not, really a cornerstone. It's more of kind of like a vault edition where it's a low volume. It's not going to be, it's it's not going to be the same production level that King Kong is.
00:20:03
Speaker
I I'm guessing, okay, this is me throwing numbers against the wall. I bet that if you do a special edition like this sells easily less than a thousand, maybe 500.
00:20:16
Speaker
It's still that's still a good seller. but it's not going to change. and They're making over 10,000 Kongs. Yeah, true. Alrighty. Jersey Jack pinball delayed Harry Potter. Supposedly that's the rumor.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah. And not even two hours ago, nap arcade said, nevermind. Apparently they're still on track. Um, We know very little when it comes to Jersey Jack pinball. Okay. They're very tight lipped. And I think appropriately so, because we know that there are licensing constraints.
00:20:53
Speaker
And once you start announcing things, it, tri it, it typically triggers stuff in a licensing agreement. So if they start releasing things, then it can be challenging. We know that Stern got into a lot of challenging situations with with ah Bond because Bond was notoriously a challenging license to work with.
00:21:19
Speaker
It's because they're very jealous of their product and they want it to be reflected in a certain way.
Jersey Jack's Harry Potter Release Speculation
00:21:24
Speaker
I guarantee Harry Potter is very hands-on, which can be a challenge if it took so long to get the the ah approval from the estate to make this game.
00:21:39
Speaker
So it it could take longer in development. right What are your thoughts, Josh? I don't know how to feel about Harry Potter, man. This whole thing is, it's so interesting. And I find it funny how people are like, this is goingnna this is going to sell more than Kong like 10 to one and and all this stuff. But then it's like, they can't produce at scale like Stern does. Like, so it's going to be a while.
00:22:05
Speaker
And people are still getting their avatars like now, like they're not even. And okay. I was a, I am a fan of avatar. Okay. I, I played it and I felt that it was one of those games that really drew me in.
00:22:20
Speaker
Like they, ah JJP knows how to, it have an immersive environment experience in a game. And that's what Avatar did for me. It felt like I was really in Pandora.
00:22:34
Speaker
um Here's the criticism though. i mean You're selling a ah collector's edition $15,000. And my friend...
00:22:44
Speaker
and my friend Here just got his collector's edition avatar $15,000 after they announced, don't buy anything. We're coming out with Harry Potter.
00:22:58
Speaker
it you kind of missed the window on the buzz on the game. And I understand they're trying to produce the best thing and they were making sure that the the ink printing was going to be the best with the lighting. And i that that seemed to be what was was holding it up.
00:23:16
Speaker
But it's like Pulp Fiction, like the LE. My opinion is I like Stern's old way of doing it. Get the pros, set them out on location because that that's your test run for how you're going to produce it And you're going to find the errors that way.
00:23:36
Speaker
And then go to the LEs and then do some more pros and premiums. i That's the the best way of selling your game. Um, but I don't understand why they pushed that toward the end and Pulp Fiction L.E.s. is the same thing. like, my gosh, I, I, Stern's Stern is going to release 12 games before they release the Pulp Fiction L.E.s. out to the, you know, out to the market for, for some people anyway.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. I just, this whole thing is weird. Like the whole, like the way that they've released it, the way that they've just, they've done everything with Harry Potter. It's just, it's kind of strange.
00:24:16
Speaker
Um, what do you think of, so do you think it's a good decision or do you think it's a terrible decision that they are decided not to limit anything that they're just gonna, like they are in the fact that like, timely they're going to make these. And then once they're done making them, they're shutting down the line, but like, yeah, there can be 10,000 CEs if they get, you know,
00:24:34
Speaker
Okay. I have, I have already declared many times having a limited amount of LEs doesn't matter to me. Okay. What I definitely want is for the, the market for the best version of your product to be adequately satisfied.
00:24:56
Speaker
Now, what What does that mean? i would I said it before, that means that you you ideally produce one less than what demand is for.
00:25:08
Speaker
the worst The worst case scenario is you produce two more and then people are like, oh there's tons of these around. And so i don't it doesn't justify my price. um But this is where like Metallica, Metallica should have been a thousand LEs.
00:25:24
Speaker
Because the way they engineered the LE package, it was a better version. just Just the art package was more was tighter.
00:25:34
Speaker
I like the presentation better. Now, you can still do a really good job with the with the premium and and adding the stuff on and still getting a really close representation of it. But there is the is it's kind of like ah Cactus Canyon.
00:25:50
Speaker
Cactus Canyon without the topper. And I know a topper is just kind of this gimmick thing, but Cactus Canyon without the topper didn't sell. Right. Because it was, that took it to a level.
00:26:02
Speaker
And once they were sold out, that's why they, they kind of scrambled and said, okay, now you can have the SC plus cause it has the topper now. um I want them if, if they have a potential of selling 5,000 CEs of Harry Potter, they should.
00:26:20
Speaker
And I want them to have that position of just saying, okay, you can order it up to a certain date and we will make that many. that That is a smart move. And sounds like that they're going to have, you know, basically a pro premium, the three-tiered system, right? Like Stern perfected it.
00:26:39
Speaker
yeah They're going to have the arcade level. They're going to have the whatever their mid-tier level is. And then the whatever their premium level is. I like that. the market will dictate how many of these are sold.
00:26:54
Speaker
But I agree. What do you feel? Because again, I've said that numbers don't drive sales to me. I'm glad that Guns N' and Roses l LE wasn't really an LE. It was a premium, right? It was whoever wanted it could have bought it.
00:27:10
Speaker
I think it's a, like I said, i I can see this from both perspectives. I think it's a terrible idea just because I think if you don't limit this, you could get into some trouble with like, you don't have the building capacity just to make as many as you want.
00:27:26
Speaker
um And you have already other licenses in the pipeline that have deadlines. Yeah, you can move them around and stuff like that. But I just... There's a lot of weird things going on with this release and it hasn't even released yet.
Impact of Harry Potter Pinball Release
00:27:38
Speaker
And i I am nervous for it Jersey Jack, but Hey, they are the people that own and operate the company. yeah They, they can, they can figure it out themselves. They are big boys and girls.
00:27:50
Speaker
Sometimes the having a monster license can be detrimental. Um, and I, I was a huge, I am a huge Star Wars fan, especially for the first three, you know, the the ones that I grew up with. Right.
00:28:07
Speaker
And I, I said hit or miss on the, on the later stuff, but I still like the theme when Star Wars came out, it didn't hit my expectations on what I wanted in the game.
00:28:22
Speaker
Like i remember going over to my friend's house, we unboxed the ah LE and it was the same time that I was playing his attack for Mars l LE downstairs. And i played star Wars a few games and I said, I want to go down and play attack from Mars.
00:28:36
Speaker
So that's not that that's, it's a hard level. It's the same thing as having a book that everybody has read. It's really hard to translate that into a movie because people will say, that's not how I envision it in my mind.
00:28:52
Speaker
So it's hard to translate a beloved theme into ah pinball machine because unless you're having a linear rule set, then you're going to have to figure out ways of making all the encounters. Now, Jersey Jack does, they have code bloat, right?
00:29:12
Speaker
And they end up having like 200 different, you know, different things in the game. And so it is possible they could put everything in this game. but that didn't help Hobbit.
00:29:26
Speaker
yeah So yeah's are people going to be disappointed by the product? And that's, that's a real uphill climb for Eric to hit. That's true. Well, I wish them the best. Like seriously, I'm excited to see what they've come up with. I like Eric's designs. I'm hoping this one meets the mark because there's definitely some, some pressure on this one.
00:29:51
Speaker
So, but it should be their next wizard of Oz. I, you remember how many runs of the wizard of Oz they did. This should be their next evergreen title because there is so much to know. Yeah.
00:30:05
Speaker
Alrighty. ah We've been getting teases for like the last couple of days now. It's official predators coming from pinball brothers.
Predator Pinball Machine Announcement
00:30:12
Speaker
No, this is not a re theme of ABBA. Like we were told, like someone speculates there because ABBA does have like a helicopter and everything like that.
00:30:20
Speaker
ah No, this is this is its own original design. I didn't even think about the helicopter being like they could reuse the ball lock. That's hilarious. um i just ah We know people that have seen this design.
00:30:33
Speaker
They're telling us it's better than Abba. It's better than Queen. ah They don't know if it's better than Alien. um How do you feel about a Predator pinball machine, Scott? The theme's great. ah it's what they What they should do with Predator, though,
00:30:51
Speaker
is it should be a Pulp Fiction type era game. You know how Pulp Fiction, they came out, if you watch Pulp Fiction, it's kind of that odd 70s vibe, but still modern, right? And they still have cell phones, but it's it has that retro vibe, right? Yeah, yeah.
00:31:10
Speaker
So they made the pinball machine with a retro vibe to it, okay? So what they should have done with Predator is they should have, and we don't know, we haven't seen it, but they should have had kind of an 80s, you know, kind of like an 80s Bally Williams game.
00:31:34
Speaker
It should feel a little bit like that. Maybe like a Congo where it's a little more retro. It's a little more stripped down rule set, kind of like a lethal weapon three where it's a lot more linear and retro. It's kind of like playing contra on the Nintendo entertainment system.
00:31:53
Speaker
Like, you know what you're getting. It feels very theme and era appropriate. So that's what I would do if I were doing this machine. Um, I'm not sure the pinball brothers are self-aware enough to do that though.
00:32:08
Speaker
I don't know either. And like, I think it's a good idea to have a predator pinball machine, especially where you own alien. So it kind of goes hand in hand and whatnot. I just don't get me wrong. I hate enjoy the eighties and whatnot.
00:32:24
Speaker
It's predator as relevant now. Like I feel like alien is because they're still making alien movies, but predator, I don't feel like they're really pushing the license or the franchise very much anymore.
00:32:37
Speaker
mean, that's not a big deal. Like obviously there's sometimes you just want to make game like evil dead. That is a cult classic that has strong, a strong ah strong fan base and whatnot. But I just, like I get like there's memes of predator and stuff like that. But I just, when I hear like the classics and the highlights and and the epic themes that people want from the eighties,
00:32:58
Speaker
I do hear preatorator occasional predator occasionally, but I just, I don't hear as much as as other themes. So the question is, did they get Arnold Schwarzenegger?
00:33:10
Speaker
Because if you do predator, there's only one movie to do. You don't mess around with predator too. You don't mess around with predator versus alien. You don't do any of that.
00:33:22
Speaker
What you like Predator versus Alien. No, no. You're not going to sell that. For my age group, the guys who grew up on Predator, you know, you want... yeah You want ah whatever, dutch isn't his name Dutch in the game? Whatever.
00:33:37
Speaker
You want Schwarzenegger and Apollo Creed like doing the bro handshake with their giant muscles, and you want the the you know the the mystique of the Predator just looking like you know he's a monster that disappears. You don't want Glover from the second one doing his thing? Yeah.
00:33:56
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. That would be so bad if it were Predator 2.
00:34:01
Speaker
mean, it's like Alien, where they had alien and aliens, and you get to choose from the code. and Oh, yeah. No, Predator 2 wasn't. i I still remember that as being an... ah Okay, that happened. rough. Yeah, it's rough. it's a But, okay, so now what do you feel about saying, okay, if you do this...
00:34:20
Speaker
really lean into that eight bit, you know, that, you know, kind of that, that Deadpool retro feel where you're doing the fighting, but it's like a nineties, like, uh, you know, like street fighter two fighting. So it's, I, I want to feel like this game was made in 1988 or whenever predator came out, you know, kind of like T2, I guess.
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, it was released in 87. Okay. um You know, i could see the the the retro vibe. That could be cool. um i don't know. I just, I think you do lean on the jungle. you lean on and that retro vibe and whatnot.
00:35:03
Speaker
I don't know. Honestly, like Predator doesn't do a ton for me. Like it's a really cool theme. okay like I like Predator, but I just. I will argue though, if you're my age.
00:35:14
Speaker
Predator was huge. Yeah. Yeah. That show was awesome. And so if you and there's definitely if you're looking for the dudes that are like 45 plus yeah who are like, I want it's Predator probably had as much of a ah following in that era as T2 did.
00:35:35
Speaker
it yeah it was, it was an iconic Arnold Schwarzenegger role. So do you think it's a good idea or terrible idea that they're doing Predator? Well, I think the theme's great. However, it's like in the, you know, in Olympic diving or Olympic gymnastics, right?
00:35:53
Speaker
You get a degree of difficulty of how much you can actually pull off. And if Stern did Predator, then i think it would be a really great license that they could really lean into.
00:36:09
Speaker
i I just haven't played any Pinball Brothers games that I wanted to buy. Yeah. So I'm hoping that they're able to do something and I'm hoping they're able to find like a way of, of proving me wrong saying, no, you want this in your, in your lineup.
Pinball Brothers' Strategy with Predator
00:36:26
Speaker
But I, so the themes of home run, the, the company is still questionable in my book. Same. And it, you know, and the whole terror thing plays into it. Like, know, Dutch kind of went off last month when the terrorists were announced they said that we're, I'm actually going to charge like $2,500 to the customers in America for Alice. And it's just, it's, it's turning into this like weird, like,
00:36:52
Speaker
what is or isn't going to happen yeah and so um overall i think it's a good decision that pinball brothers went with predator i think it's going to draw more of an american audience outside of you know abba i think queen should have been a home run but it just doesn't play fantastic and so are you optimistic about them making a game you want to buy No.
00:37:20
Speaker
Yeah. I'll be frank. No. Well, okay. But that i that is ultimately the level that yeah in today's market, you have to make something that people want to buy and put in their home.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right? Right. Because over half of their sales are to home environments. You're not going to make this marketable if you're just putting it in bars. Right. yeah Here's the other thing too. i'm I've pretty much sworn off new in box unless it's an L one or it's a game that has been proven to be ah great game.
00:37:58
Speaker
Okay. So like, so like I would probably take a chance on a cactus Canyon, maybe new in box. Sure. um Medieval madness easily. Metallica, you know, walking, walking dead.
00:38:10
Speaker
I would consider just, um, Seeing where the market's currently at, what it's doing and everything. You're little more gun You're a more gun shy. I'm a lot more gun shy. Yeah, because it's not five years ago.
00:38:21
Speaker
It's not five years ago where you buy a game and you can sell it for $500 more than you bought it for. Yeah, yeah. Or even just take a haircut of couple hundred bucks. Right. you know when when When MSRP on a Foo Fighters is $7,000 and they're not even selling for $5,000, it just becomes this like, well – i and And don't get me wrong. I think Foo Fires is an amazing game. i don It's a great game.
00:38:46
Speaker
I don't understand the concept. But here's the thing too. So I messaged ah message ah a location operator and i he usually buys my games. And I said, hey, this is what I'm selling it for. And he's like, yeah, i think I'm going to pass.
00:38:57
Speaker
And then like three weeks later, I said, I dropped the price. you still and Would you be interested all? he said, no, we're going to hold off right now. So I messaged him today or yesterday. I said, this is my bottom dollar I'll take for it.
00:39:09
Speaker
If not, like it's it's going to Zach. And so he's like, Josh, to be entirely honest, Foo Fighters is doing nothing for us on location. It's a terrible earner. He's like, I don't want anything to do with it. And it's like,
00:39:21
Speaker
That's because, yeah. But that's because music music pins have to be in a home environment. they They do. Just because unless you have a headphone jack, because music pins are heavily reliant on the soundtrack. Yeah.
00:39:38
Speaker
And it is so hard to get a good soundtrack on location that unless it's a Metallica, it's you know I doubt even Iron Maiden does great on location. And it's an Elwin.
00:39:53
Speaker
I talk to lot of operators and they say it's hard to route music pins. They just don't do well the on location. Unless you're Metallica. Metallica probably does. yeah Probably.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. so But it's, you know, Aerosmith, um you know, maybe not so much. ah ACDC probably. But there's, it it is more missed than hit in the, on the music pins for location.
00:40:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. let's move on to our very
CGC Cactus Canyon Delays and Quality Concerns
00:40:24
Speaker
last topic. um CGC Cactus Canyon delayed. It sounds like that these, the remake extended kit with the the doors and the code and yada yada.
00:40:36
Speaker
I was originally aiming for end of May, beginning of June, but it has been postponed. um I didn't exactly see how long, but it's CGC. So it's probably like, we'll see it at pinball expo.
00:40:49
Speaker
ah As long as CGC, puts out a good finished product, then they'll be fine. The, because see people are willing to give them a slight pass. I'm not going to say a full pass, but they're giving them a slight pass. As long as the quality is up once their quality, or if their quality drops off, then they're going to be in a world of hurt.
00:41:16
Speaker
And here's the thing though, like their quality is slipping. Like i don't, it is. There were more issues with Cactus Canyon than there were with the other games. And there was more issues with Pulp Fiction there has been with others too. And like it's not just like...
00:41:30
Speaker
Here's the thing. i I will excuse wire forms being not bent the right way. it's It's easy to adjust. Adjusting a coil or bending a switch when the cabinet's separating. when Right. And the and we saw that. haven't heard playful issues. Yeah, we personally saw that. At the one at Logan Arcade, yeah the back box was separating. it was it was like i would I would be nervous. like That needed a whole bunch of like super glue and Bondo to keep that thing together.
00:42:03
Speaker
Well, and you've had a big turnover rate of the people that worked at CGC and it's almost like a whole new crew came in last year too. yeah So the question is, as we're getting these products out the door, like, are they changing like where I'm hearing more and more that we're changing quality on that. So I don't know. We, we asked, I hope not.
00:42:24
Speaker
We're hoping to get our hands on a kit soon because I have a cactus Canyon L E. And Josh has been out to my house many times to to play these games. So yeah I would love to get my hands on the kit and put it in.
00:42:38
Speaker
And then we can see because it does have a significant code upgrade. And they're calling it the code complete now, right? Yeah. Yep. And so how you know in what Josh has done, we want to have Josh on.
00:42:53
Speaker
had josh We actually messaged Josh when everything was done. he was like, yeah, we can do it. And then just there was so many things, but I want to give it, I want to give the interview when it's getting a little closer so we can actually talk more about it so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. um But yeah, that's, i'm I'm hoping that this ends up being like a really cool upgrade for Cactus Canyon. Yeah. I agree with you, man.
00:43:19
Speaker
um Yeah. It's just, I feel like CGC is starting to slip. You know, it's funny, like a few years ago, i firmly believe CGC was like in the number two spot, even above Jersey Jack.
00:43:31
Speaker
I just, between their timelines, now their quality starting to slip. Like I need, I need some reassurance that things are getting a little better. um But it doesn't matter because like yeah medieval madness sold out in less than 24 hours.
00:43:44
Speaker
And I hope that they, they take this as a, Hey, we'll do the Merlin. I, I am disappointed that they don't have standard edition right now, but I, I would not be surprised if at some point they just like, okay, let's just do a standard edition. Yeah. And,
00:44:02
Speaker
um I actually just bought a rental down in st in St. George and I was hoping to get the, you know, a standard edition to put down there. So um I guess we'll see. Maybe I'll put, you know, and they're still doing good. Like, I'm not saying like they're bombing completely. Okay.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah. They're not falling apart, but yeah it was when you bought the other machines, they were bulletproof. You're just seeing typical things that you see with all manufacturers, right?
Industry Challenges and Distributor Relations
00:44:29
Speaker
And that that's the only thing I, I still, I ordered a Merlin, so I'm planning on swapping my, my game out for a Merlin edition. So that is, you know, I, I'm still a big CGC fan and you know, this, what CGC is making, what JJP is making, what, what Stern's making and really even Spooky's creeping up into that, know,
00:44:56
Speaker
solid build category. I am getting more and more and more of a believer in spooky. yeah What they're doing is right. they are They are on the right path. And ah here, i'll I'll give friendly advice to anyone out there that is a pinball manufacturer that it isn't Stern.
00:45:13
Speaker
If you want to start making more money, this this is going to sound counterintuitive. You're going to have to give better margins to your dealers and distributors. because people aren't going to sell your product if they're not even making half the margin they are on a Stern Pro.
00:45:29
Speaker
So if you if you're having issues moving product and stuff like that, you might want to consider. I'm not saying give give price off to the end consumer. Your B2B, you've got to start figuring out that relationship a little better if you want to start weathering some of this economic storm that we're seeing right now.
00:45:47
Speaker
yeah so Stern also, and they make up for a lot of this with with volume. yeah Because Stern, you add up all the other companies and Stern still sells four times as much. yeah but they Stern sells that much too, but they also have the best margins in the industry. yeah And we've known this for years. At least us behind the scenes have. yeah The incentive for the dealers to sell a Stern is higher than it is to sell another game.
00:46:16
Speaker
Yes. so But I don't know if they can do the same thing as Stern just because their volume is, is 20, you know, all, yeah but add all the other ones up and they still only make 25% of the market.
00:46:30
Speaker
You can't tell me that a Jersey Jack can't offer a little more margin to their distributors. Maybe, but that there are cost-cutting things that people would not like to see.
00:46:45
Speaker
And so i it is this it's this fine line. It's this fine line of trying to make sure that your dealers are not overloaded with inventory. Yeah. Because when, as you're a dealer, you want to buy a game and you want to move it out the door in less than 90 days. Yeah.
00:47:05
Speaker
That's how you want it to be. And if you're sitting on a game for a year, then that is that is death for a dealer because that is, you know, that's a five to $10,000 they could be using on something else.
00:47:21
Speaker
now.
Closing Remarks and Appreciation
00:47:23
Speaker
I'm going to leave the conversation there. and it's It's late. It's past midnight. well We kind of stayed up late tonight to record because it's been a while and Scott's leaving out of town. He's leaving out of the country on Saturday.
00:47:35
Speaker
So we figured better get one out before he leaves for two weeks. So yeah um if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com you can get a hold of us on all the socials at loser kid pinball we appreciate your support those that have supporters on patreon thank you again for signing up for our content and saying that we are worth your dollar uh and also big shout out to flipping out pinball and for all they do to help sponsor us Scott, give us our last words.
00:48:02
Speaker
You know i Seriously, check out the Silver Ball Swag right now. The shoes are great. Right now, that we're we're in a tariff ah window where the tariffs are lower.
00:48:13
Speaker
And so go ahead and get the shoes. They're not there for the time being. Yeah. Yeah. But like, i hey, i I've been having my, you know, my my big ah high tops. the you know i they They look great.
00:48:26
Speaker
They're fun. And I will say it's amazing how many times I'm wearing my pinball shoes and I get random comments on my shoes all the time. Not from pinball people. Just like, hey, those are cool things.