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275- Can you support animal rights and 'own' a 'pet'?
56 Plays10 hours ago
Blimey. There's a thorny one. Or is it? Could the answer be as simple as "yes" or "no"? Well, the length of this episode would suggest that Mark, Julie & Anthony either took their time with their one word answers, or there was slightly more to it than that.
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Mark, Julie & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Animal Rights and Pets
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. Okay, philosophical berets at the ready, get them on. In the strictest sense of animal rights, does the word pet even exist? And what about animals living in a human's home?
00:00:16
Speaker
Or even animals just living under a human's care? Well, I'm Anthony, I'm joined by Julie and Mark, and for this episode of Vegan Talk, that is what we're going be talking about.
00:00:29
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brody! Take your flab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:41
Speaker
Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices
Philosophical Discussions and Previous Content
00:00:49
Speaker
are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of things, you know.
00:00:53
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice.
00:01:02
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:11
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everybody, Julie here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for joining us.
00:01:23
Speaker
Hi everyone, this is Mark here. this is You've tuned into Vegan Talk where we discuss a contentious, or maybe not contentious, issue in the animal rights milieu.
Defining Animal Rights
00:01:33
Speaker
Previous episodes of Vegan Talk are available in Folk's podcast feed, so if you want to hear some more philosophical debating, you can go back to our back catalogue for more of that.
00:01:43
Speaker
Indeed. And if philosophical debates aren't your thing, we sometimes do things like, you know, we review movies and things like that. So it's all just timeless animal rights vegan content. So as we said at the top, we're talking about companion animals, the P word, pets, with regards to an animal rights framework in this episode. So what would an animal rights compatible companion animal look like? Or to flip it, what would it not look like if we were looking at things in the sort of strictest animal rights sense? So I thought to start things off, if we could kind of agree on what roughly what we mean by animal rights. um I've taken this definition from the Humane League, not because I think they're the best organisation in the world, but but it was a definition that that seemed nice and succinct. So they say, animal rights is the philosophy that sentient animals have moral worth and inherent rights to life, liberty and freedom from exploitation
00:02:49
Speaker
independent of their utility to humans. So I think before we go any further, let's come to Julie first and then Mark. I'm happy enough with that definition. Julie, is there anything you'd change to that, add to it, remove? and No, I don't think so. i think it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's got Julie Stamp. Mark? Yes, ah I would agree with it. I mean, it if we're getting into the into the long grass about this, and I suppose this is the opportunity to do so, I guess in a sense,
The Human Construction of Rights
00:03:19
Speaker
right? So human rights, animal rights. and ah
00:03:21
Speaker
I believe that we we we as humans have rights and animals have rights, but only because we have decided to imbue ourselves and other ah animal life with these rights.
00:03:34
Speaker
They're an invention in our head. They don't exist outside of that. Do I think animals have rights? Not inherently. i don't think humans have rights inherently either. It's a fiction. It's a wonderful fiction we have created to allow us to exist and coexist on this planet in as peaceful a way possible.
00:03:54
Speaker
And that's why they should exist. but outside of our imagination, they aren't there. The same way as money isn't there really, or religion, or or patriotism, or or any other ism.
00:04:08
Speaker
It doesn't exist outside of the space between the ears of some humans. So yes, I agree that all sentient life has rights, not through nature, if you like, but through our imagination.
00:04:25
Speaker
So whether that makes a difference in outcomes or not, we we could we could debate that.
Pets and Animal Rights: Compatibility?
00:04:30
Speaker
But yes, I think that that description of animal rights is it is great, but it's ah it's an academic exercise of the imagination that only humans do.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think it's right to point point out that it's a human thing. I mean, you couldn't really persuade ah a bearded dragon or ah or a lion, you know, about animal rights. But yeah, yeah, it's ah it's a human thing. So, okay. So if if it feels like we're we're in agreement with with those words, more or less. So again, just to repeat it, the philosophy that sentient animals have moral worth and inherent rights to life, liberty, and freedom from exploitation, independence, of their utility to humans. And and we're we're going to be talking just in terms of our Anthony, Julie and Mark's personal opinions here. Would it be fair to say that from a purely academic animal rights sense, having a pet
00:05:28
Speaker
So, and and and I'm going define, we're gonna have to define lots of things here, but like an animal that you buy for your own benefit, that doesn't stack from an animal rights sense. That's not compatible with that definition of animal rights. Would that be fair to say, or could we challenge that?
00:05:45
Speaker
I think that's fair to say. I have been sort of brainwashed and indoctrinated and brought up in the same anthropocentric world as everybody else. So from time to time, i might just, for the sake of not going all around the houses and explanations, refer to certain animals as people's pets. And I hate when I say I hear myself doing it because I really dislike that word and that concept.
00:06:15
Speaker
But sometimes for the sake of just connecting with people very briefly in a short conversation about something, I might use that word just as shorthand, but I don't like it. So that's the first thing. And I think there's a bit of a gray area when it comes to you're talking about...
00:06:35
Speaker
you know, an animal, bringing an animal into your life that you pay for.
Complexities of Animal Ownership
00:06:40
Speaker
Because even when you rescue an animal or take an animal into your life from ah a sort of rescue shelter or something like that, you still have to pay.
00:06:52
Speaker
You're not buying it from a shop, but you still have to pay. in the same way that and people might say that I'm not vegan for having sheep in my life I'm open to challenge on that completely I have sheep in my life and for two of those sheep I had to pay per kilogram believe it or not to save them from being slaughtered. So the bigger one that was more kilograms, I had to pay money more for him because he was going to fetch a certain price for meat.
00:07:32
Speaker
So I i suppose it's the it's the commodifying for one's own personal benefit, isn't it? Either either to use that life yourself or to further sell it on for for a profit, I suppose, that that doesn't stack for for an animal rights point of view for for you, Julie. is is that Is that why you would say that?
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, and well, there's just lots and lots of things that I would find uncomfortable about. Well, the word pet mainly, but also, and as I say, i'm not I don't have too much of a problem with money changing hands for an animal to be brought into your life, really. because that is the way that it is. But yes, if the primary motivation is your own gratification or some kind of use, in a sense, then that isn't animal rights. But that again, that is a grey area. If somebody just really wants connection with an animal...
00:08:40
Speaker
and they're giving a good home for, you know, in inverted commas, to an animal that's in a rescue that center, you might say, well, that's a mutually beneficial thing. You know, there are tons of great areas with this, tons of them.
00:08:55
Speaker
Yeah. Where do you fall down on this, Mark? Like, can can it at all be compatible to say, i look,
Benefits and Issues of Companion Animals
00:09:01
Speaker
I just like having the companionship of of a cat in my life.
00:09:07
Speaker
and And so i'm I'm going to give it a good home, but by'm I'm doing this for me. It's okay. So I remember when i was, um it was back in the 80s, I think, and there was a documentary on about animal rights on BBC, I think. and one of the parting shots of uh the bbc commentator gave at the end of the show was that um he was referring to the what he was describing as the more extreme end of the animal rights lobby which was basically vegans and he was saying and these people even think that pets are political prisoners
00:09:41
Speaker
and then the show ended. And I remember that sticking in my head. This all was 20, 30 years ago. And it stuck in my head, did this this idea that ah I think, looking at the time and looking back, I think that that was a barbed comment designed to portray the the vegans, in this case, as completely unreachable extremists, that they were considering someone's cat to be a political prisoner the same way as Nelson Mandela was on Robben Island, right, or something like this. And it was just designed to portray the vegans as as as you know as completely extremists. I've never heard anyone in any debate but ever since, on either side of the debate, refer to a pet as a political prisoner. i think the BBC just made it up because it sounded good. Yeah, I would agree that some of the terminology like pets...
00:10:30
Speaker
And so with that, it's very patronizing. And you can have that one. I'll insert the laughter track afterwards, Mark. It's fine. More immediately afterwards. I think yes look i think and humans have always sought out ah relationships with other non-human animals.
00:10:48
Speaker
That's why dogs are dogs. That's why cats are cats. And there's nothing inherently wrong with it. In fact, i would encourage it because it allows people to understand that non-human animals have as rich a life as they have.
00:11:01
Speaker
and And if they can only extend that sort of thinking to factory farmed animals, then we'd we'd we'd go a certain way towards veganizing the world, I think. So I have nothing against people hanging around with non-human animals as I say i would encourage it where it gets problematic is when it um it's an anthropocentric sort of relationship where where it's all about what the animal can do to the or for the human as in helping the humans relax or giving them a friend and all the rest of it so it needs to be on an equal footing I suppose but ah I have a pet for the first time ever in my life now actually we we have a pet cat which ah I really enjoy being around. It is fascinating to see the the behavior and world of cats. it's it' it It is an amazing thing. I'm not a huge animal person in the sense that um I stop at every stray cat on the street as i'm walking home and stroke them for 20 minutes. And I know some people who i do that and they also eat meat as well.
00:12:04
Speaker
and and i and And I find that a bit sort of fascinating that they can have such an empathy and a need to be around non-human animals and then go off to the supermarket and buy a chicken sandwich. And just did this gap in, I mean, we've talked about this endlessly as well as the gap in people's behaviors and attitudes, you know. and I would like to see more people have ah pets. I wouldn't refer to them as pets. I think the the the sort of the more um correct term these days is companion animal, which I think describes the relationship a lot more favorably.
00:12:35
Speaker
So no, I think having ah companion animals is
Speculations on Animal Rights in Parallel Universes
00:12:39
Speaker
a great thing. I think the industry around it is problematic, but then when when you when you introduce capitalism to to any aspect of life, it can become problematic.
00:12:47
Speaker
I don't think that there's a fundamental problem in this. there is a problem in the way some people go about this, but on a fundamental basis, no, as I say, I would encourage it. I do recall seeing foot footage some some years back of a group of activists in Brighton.
00:13:04
Speaker
so so so So they were taking away this this puppy dog from a street homeless guy, like an alcoholic sort of guy. whose whose only friend in life was this dog, but a buddy but he wasn't able to take care of the dog and he was seen kicking the dog on occasion. So these animal rights activists came came out of the Cowley Club, this sort of club in Brighton City Centre, and took the dog away from the guy. And he was in tears and people were giving out to these guys for doing this. and but it's's it' It's his only stable relationship in his life is this dog and yeah and surely you can't deny him this. And it actually was was the best thing to do because they they were interested in the dog's welfare. And it wasn't all about the human. The human didn't own the animal to be able to do anything he wanted with him. And if if if he wasn't able to take to take care of the animal, he was allowed to keep him. They were stepping in on a behalf of the animal. So we can have companion animals, but they shouldn't be viewed as pets or things that we own.
00:14:01
Speaker
And that's where things go wrong. They are in the same way as a friend would be. And if we were abusing our friend, then the friend would step away from us or or be brought out of a ah be brought out of our contact. So the same sort of rights it should be.
00:14:15
Speaker
given to an animal even if it looks cruel in the moment it's for the animal's benefit so we shouldn't own animals as pets we should hang around them as companion animals I think there are elements of this that I don't know what necessarily is right or or what would turn out to be the case I don't firmly agree with you Mark that but I think the more people that had animals in their life the better in that I ah i wonder and I I'm not saying I disagree. I just wonder whether, that though there are people who go vegan because having a dog in their life at close quarters opens their eyes to you you know the fact that, oh, we're actually all quite similar and we shouldn't be exploiting animals.
00:15:06
Speaker
I wonder whether actually it perpetuates the the kind of speciesism and the kind of othering of of animals compared to us. So I'd be fascinated to see a parallel universe whereby, you know, an animal rights movement basically says, look, we shouldn't be having animals in our homes.
00:15:25
Speaker
We just shouldn't. You know, it's that they're their own beings. that They're not They're not creatures that want to be living inside four walls and we just shouldn't do it. I'd be fascinated to see the parallel progresses of these two movements in parallel universes to see which one actually gets more progress. I mean, as I'm saying it now,
00:15:47
Speaker
I think it would be a hugely alienating thing to say in the same way that you're talking about that documentary in the 80s where they're saying, look, these people are so crazy. They they even think pets shouldn't exist or or shouldn't be in our lives. So I think there'd be a time and a place for that argument. But there's part of me that wonders in that...
00:16:05
Speaker
in a same but different way to people walking around eating meat-like burgers that are actually vegan or wearing faux leather or faux fur or what have you.
00:16:17
Speaker
Does it perpetuate the exploitation that we're not happy with? Can people tell the difference? But it's just it's just an element of things that I'm i'm not... 100 sure on i mean wouldn't if if we could come to you julie like do do you have a concern that some elements of cohabiting with an animal even a rescued animal in a really shared level playing field way like could still be perpetuating the pet phenomenon that that we're kind of not in favor of Yes, I i worry about that. And I tell you a specific type of situation that worries me the most is that when people who have got a kind of, you know, identify them as as being vegan, when they take into their home animals such as snakes and these exotic pets, but they've taken them from, you know, a shelter or something like that,
00:17:21
Speaker
And that really worries me. And they might justify and say, oh, well, I'm not buying this from a dealer. You know, I'm not supporting the trade of these exotic animals.
00:17:34
Speaker
ah I'm taking this from a rescue place. But It still might be the case that somebody comes and visits them in their home and goes, oh, what a beautiful snake. Oh, I would love one like that. And and that kind of it's it's making that type of sharing your life with an animal that belongs in a very different environment than animals.
00:17:56
Speaker
a house in scotland somewhere or something you know i mean um it's kind of making that okay so when it's these exotic or or non-domesticated animals as well and people are taking them into their house i really worry about that And yes, I think just that whole concept of so-called pet ownership, it's quite nuanced for people to get their head around. So I think sometimes even when people are doing it,
00:18:31
Speaker
in as much of an animal rights way as possible. It can be really hard for people to understand that and to make the sort of distinction and understand. Yeah, it can be. I do find a lot of the aspects of people having even animals like cats and dogs in their home, I don't find it unproblematic.
Ethical Concerns of Animal Cohabitation
00:18:59
Speaker
at all I think there are real questions about in whose interests is that happening and is it genuinely a good home and everything I mean I you know have particular worries about people who have a dog in their life given that dogs are naturally pack animals if they are just one dog in a household whether there's just an a sort of underlying insecurity there for the dog that they don't have peers or whatever just things like that you know that there might be inherent stresses that we're inflicting
00:19:38
Speaker
onto these animals that they that don't show up but they're actually there as an underlying stress on them just all the time you know that we might be causing some kind of not a quality of life really for them because it's hard in our society to give these animals complete freedom you know dogs need to be put on a lead from time to time and kind of guided around the place and things like that. Yeah, so there are some aspects of people having animals within their actual home that I find difficult and questionable and I do not have an animal in my home living beside me for that reason. I don't feel comfortable with that as a concept.
00:20:26
Speaker
From the animal's point of view, I do have animals in my life. They did not get a choice about coming into my life. I brought them into my life. I totally own that. They are outside in as free an environment as our society will accept.
00:20:44
Speaker
These animals are sheep and if I were to just let them wander at will, then somebody else would entrap them because sheep aren't allowed in our society to wander at will. So they are given as big a field as possible and as much freedom and all the rest of it as possible. But they are contained within a field. I completely own that. But I do not share my home or inflict an enclosed domestic environment on any animal and i will not do so.
00:21:15
Speaker
Mark, it was really interesting hearing you talk about sort of not intrinsically being somebody that's like doting on animals. And now i was really glad to hear that because I'm like that too. Like i I can share an enjoyment in an animal that is special to someone else.
00:21:32
Speaker
If that person is special to me, you know, I can, I can love that and I can really dig that. But yeah, I'm totally not, you know, despite being 15 plus years vegan, i I'm not intrinsically like that too.
Respect vs. Love for Animals
00:21:44
Speaker
And I too have been in a situation where I have shared my house with an animal, not 100% of my choosing really, but you know if you share a house with somebody, then you can really put your foot down on something, can't you?
00:22:01
Speaker
And also you you might have to say, well, okay, ah this is your space too, that's something that's really important to you, perhaps I can get on board with this and perhaps there are ways that we can do this in a way that feels comfortable to me and not wholly unacceptable. Like, ah have have there been, can I ask, have there been things that have been important to you sharing a space with an animal just with regards to an animal rights lens? I would find it hard to share. and Like I see some people with with massive big Alsatian dogs and they're living in the back of a truck or in a tiny house. And I i do find it hard
00:22:40
Speaker
to imagine sharing space with another being as big as this, you know, ah and with as many needs as ah as any animal has. I think it boils down to really respect rather than a love for or or even just an acknowledgement that I mean, it's it's the same way as I feel about humans. i love some, I hate some, I like some, I dislike others. you know It depends on the individual. I sort of more or less see animals as people just with more limbs you know and more hair in their body really, you know and and they have their own set of interests and needs. and I don't love all animals at all, but I do acknowledge that they all want want want to live more or less as strongly as I do.
00:23:23
Speaker
And the the main right they have for me is to be left alone. It doesn't go much more beyond that, you know, in terms of rights. And and that should be enough. ah As long as I'm leaving them alone to do whatever it is that nature intended them to do, then I'm sort of doing i'm i'm sort of doing my bit. ah I've never felt the need to have ah have a companion animal until we we moved about a year ago, housed, and the kids insisted on on adopting a cat from the s SPCA. so so so So we went ahead and did that. It is problematic in the sense that I now have to buy cat food, which...
00:24:00
Speaker
tends to come from a factory farm and then feed that to to my companion animals. So I do find that there is conflict introduced to my life be because of this. there's's There's no way around it as far as I can see here because there isn't any vegan alternative for cat food.
00:24:17
Speaker
I think you can get some of that in the UK. Correct me if I'm um So... It's never without its problems, but any relationship, any dynamic with any animal, human or non-human in my life has pros and cons, has problematic aspects to it.
00:24:32
Speaker
And that is just life. But I think so certain species of animals are more attuned to being to be companion animals than others. There's this old footage of of the 1960s in swinging London when you get really posh people in their cars and they and they pull up outside some club and they emerge out of the car with like a cheetah on a leash or something like this. and they were there were They were having like a you know tigers as pets and all the rest of it until there was a band sort of brought in. That's completely unacceptable.
00:25:02
Speaker
because there is no way that that animal has is is in its net it is in its natural environment. I think cats and dogs have been selectively bred to the point where it certain species of cats and dogs, at least, prefer to be around humans, it seems, than than any other animal.
00:25:19
Speaker
I'm not too sure about the the the whole thing. It is a grey area. It isn't without its problems. But I think if people are giving the animal the respect and the independence and recognising the individuality of their companion animal, then it's it's as good as it's going to get.
00:25:34
Speaker
it's I mean, goodness, it's it's so complicated and there are so many... everyone's everyone's gonna have their own like levels of tolerance, I suppose, aren't they? Or you know boundaries or edges that that they say is, you know is I'm comfortable with that or I personally think that that's wholly wrong.
00:25:57
Speaker
And so I'm i'm not going to to go there in my life. and And actually, if I had my way, nobody nobody else would. I wonder, to to sort of bring our conversation to a conclusion, perhaps if we could start with you, Julie, but but let's hear Mark's presentation.
00:26:15
Speaker
opinion too, if this is a divisive issue within individuals in the animal rights movement, is there a question to be asked in terms of, well, is this the hill to die on? Is this the issue to fall out on? Or actually, is it the case that, well, this is, easy you know, we can't necessarily pick and choose with our with how animal rights is applied, because that definition of of animal rights, it it didn't sort of say, well, that applies to food, or that applies to areas where everyone agrees. But if everyone's disagreeing, then we'll we'll ignore that definition.
00:26:55
Speaker
What do you think, Julie? Well, we don't need to be falling out, but I suppose from my point of view, I would just always be speaking up for animals. I'm not saying that I have the absolute take on what's in their best interest, so I'm not pretending that, but... I think rather than focusing on whether there's a disagreement between myself and another human being and their interpretation of veganism or their treatment of animal, you know, whatever, I would just be focusing on whatever the animal was experiencing at the time. you know what i mean? So it's about the animals for me. It's not about the people or about falling out with someone or agreeing with anybody. Where i felt perhaps there was an animal that was suffering, you know, as a result of somebody's treatment of it, of course I would be speaking up. Or even if it wasn't as drastic as the animal was really...
00:27:58
Speaker
you know suffering some obvious harm i might be having a conversation with somebody about you know just questioning how things were being done perhaps i don't know it was interesting in what you said about you know the people who really pet animals but they eat meat and everything well I see that as the same side, you know, sides of the same coin in a way, because the people who really go mad for petting and patting and grabbing onto animals are kind of doing so because they see those, it's their right to grasp and and get their own gratification.
Nuances and Protective Instincts in Animal Rights
00:28:40
Speaker
There's no consent needed. It's just like, oh, there's a fluffy cat. Well, I'm going to grab it because that's, nice for me regardless you know and oh well there's a a burger you know I'm going to consume that because that's nice you know animals in these people's minds are there for their own pleasure in all kinds of different ways so I don't see a ah kind of problem with that and it's interesting what you said about you know you don't feel that you love every single animal they're like people you know you you like some you love some whatever
00:29:15
Speaker
I'm a bit strange obviously because i I don't know if I would describe it as love but I think I definitely feel really super duper uber protective of every animal out there.
00:29:31
Speaker
I'm very aware of that. and I am respectful towards all of them. I'm in awe of just their differences and their quirks and their, you know, different appearances and and ways of living and their ways of showing up in the world. I'm in awe of them all. And I feel really protective, you know, to the extent that...
00:29:56
Speaker
You know, and I did it today. I do it every day of my life when I'm walking to see the the wee sheep in my life. There's always a wee worm person. There's always a wee worm on the road or on the pavement somewhere. It's not the same one, I hope. But, you know, there's...
00:30:14
Speaker
so So I get two leaves, like those stretchers that people get that come into two parts. You you put one part on one side of the person and I gently lift up the wee worm person. I put him, I find him or her some mud somewhere and...
00:30:30
Speaker
Those wee warm people, I feel as warm and in awe of those wee folk as anybody out there, any human being, you know i mean? And so every wee animal or big animal or whatever, I feel ah a desire that if there's something going on with them that, you know, is awful for them or not quite right, I want to fix it or sort it whatever. So...
00:31:00
Speaker
if I can't so I feel the same way about the animals that are in somebody's life if I can see a kind of oh but hang on a minute you know they're you know that that dog is is being tied up outside that shop for hours or it's in a hot car or you know or something you know as I say it's not about falling out with a person but it is about just focusing on the animal and And if there is discomfort or unhappiness for the animal, I would, I'd absolutely driven to do something about it. And, and to my detriment, because in a way I don't mind who doesn't like me as a result. I will speak up and I will speak out and,
00:31:45
Speaker
I will try to do something for an animal and I will often disregard the opinions, feelings, thoughts, pride or whatever of the human concerned, I'm afraid.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think, so I'm someone who just does have an inbuilt concern of what people think and and of you know what what people think of me. Of course, of course you know you have to leave that to a certain extent. You can't be ah completely beholden to that. But I do still think it's possible to express a vulnerable ah opinion or or just express something that might not be a popular opinion, but that actually, that that can bridge gaps. I mean, just in our conversation here, like...
00:32:37
Speaker
it's been really nice to hear someone else saying actually i'm not the most intrinsically attracted to doting on animals like that that that mark said or julie like i i too if it was if i lived by myself like i absolutely just i i just wouldn't have an animal in in the house i mean currently we don't but you know i think sometimes these opinions do go against the grain, even in circles of vegans and and an animal rights folk. And ah I do believe it's possible to to share those in a way that's you know not bashing someone's head against a wall, but saying, actually, the...
00:33:19
Speaker
you know, might be an unpopular opinion, but I happen to feel this way about this. And actually there's probably gonna be someone else that does as well. And that's a really nice thing to kind of, I really applaud the way that you're talking Julie there in terms of, you know, putting animals first.
00:33:36
Speaker
And we can be really good allies and advocates for them. And even better so if we feel like we're accompanied by others who share our opinions on things, I think. So I'd i'd encourage folk to to put their opinions out there in it in a gentle way that that might just find other people who are like, oh, yeah, I don't think that's a good idea, too. Or, yeah, but I think we should be doing this, too. Just to follow on what you were saying, I suppose, really, is is that there is, I think there is an underlying assumption amongst the general population that people who are vegan or oriented towards veganism are vegan because of their um bottomless love for animals. And it's like an emotional response. It's got an an emotional basis to it. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But I found that that isn't to be the case. And it it needn't be the case either. I believe in human rights, even though I hate some humans, or I haven't met most of the humans, so I couldn't have any ah any opinion. It isn't based on love. But my attraction towards sort of a civil society where all humans are respected isn't based unrighteousness. unending love for the human race, because I certainly don't have that. It's based on a recognition of rights and respect.
00:34:55
Speaker
And it's the exact same thing with animals. The problem with the the United Nations Charter on Human Rights is that it's only to do with humans. It should be to do with rights of all sentient beings. So I would apply the same morality and ethical outlook that I apply to humans to non-humans. So it's not about love as the only bedrock on which this principle is formed.
00:35:20
Speaker
Love is great, but it shouldn't it doesn't require require unending love for all humankind to believe in human rights, just the same as it doesn't require unending love for all animals to believe in animal rights or animal liberation.
Conclusion and Podcast Information
00:35:35
Speaker
So um it's about shifting the focus away from an extreme emotional emotional response that only a few people will will will have in any given demograph to a more broadly approachable sort of basis for your outlook, which is respect.
00:35:51
Speaker
And that's way I go about it. So in terms of companion animals, it's a case by case basis. If the person cohabiting with the companion animal is showing due respect, no problem.
00:36:03
Speaker
if they're a domineering authoritarian sort of dynamic problem. So it's a case by case basis, but hanging in a around of animals, whether you call them pets or companion animals or political prisoners is okay as long as you're doing it right.
00:36:17
Speaker
In fact, it might be fun calling an animal. You know, Pol Pot's name in the Khmer Rouge, he was called that because he had political potential. That's where the name Paul Pog came from. So if if I do get another animal, I might call him Paul Pry, like political prisoner or something like that. and so Yeah, yeah.
00:36:35
Speaker
Political prisoners. Goodness me. Goodness me. Well, thank you. Thank you both. That's been a really interesting conversation. I hope on enough of the falafel, we don't shy away from difficult subjects. And, you know, this has been Julie and Mark and Anthony's opinions. We know you're going to have yours. Two, you've just missed the last mailbag show, but we still absolutely value and welcome your opinions on this subject or anything else that we have covered on a show or are yet to. So you're going to need our email address. Here it comes.
00:37:10
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas what helps shape the show.
00:37:30
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com Lovely stuff. Thank you, Julie. Thank you, Mark. Listeners, I do like to, we do like to occasionally let you know that if you enjoy what we do, we have got a Ko-Fi page. That's where if you feel so inclined and can afford to do so, you can sling a few dollary-do's our way, which we put towards getting better quality equipment so that our show sounds better. We're not pocketing it for ourselves. So know that that page exists. The details are in the show notes as always. The next Enough of the Falafel episode coming out will be available from Monday the 25th of May. It's a Vegan Week episode and it features Anthony, Paul and Shane and they will be giving you the usual roundup of the week's vegan and animal rights news.
00:38:26
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Julie and Anthony, for all your contributions. Thanks again, everyone, for listening. I've been Mark, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:38:43
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:38:54
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:39:24
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:39:45
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:40:00
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.