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Arranging Tangerines Episode 23 - A Conversation with Danielle Ezzo
28 Plays3 years ago
In this week's episode, we sit down with Danielle Ezzo at her Brooklyn studio to discuss her recent endeavors within the crypto art world including the ways in which decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs) can function, the importance of Twitter and Discord as a community building tool, the effort that community building requires, the economics of being an artist, and photography's natural foray into the NFT space.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Arranging Tangerines' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
00:00:05
Speaker
Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
00:00:13
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:14
Speaker
I know what to say.
00:00:17
Speaker
I just know I want to be like you.
00:00:20
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:22
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:00:24
Speaker
I just know I want to be like you.
Meet Danielle Ezzo: Innovator in NFT Art
00:00:34
Speaker
This week's guest is Danielle Ezzo.
00:00:37
Speaker
Danielle Ezzo is a photo artist and writer based in Brooklyn, New York.
00:00:40
Speaker
She's interested in new approaches to image making, the shortcomings of the medium, and the slippages between innovation and understanding.
00:00:46
Speaker
Danielle's work has been written about in the Boston Globe, the Tate, and Lenscratch, and exhibited internationally, including the Santa Barbara Museum of Art and the Far Eastern Museum of Art in Russia.
00:00:56
Speaker
Danielle is an active community builder within the NFT space.
00:00:59
Speaker
She is the co-founder of PlayDAO, a collective of photographers focusing on encouraging experimentation within the space.
00:01:05
Speaker
She writes and hosts Twitter spaces for ObscuraDAO and Fellowship Trust, both of which are organizations driven by and dedicated to the support of photographers and the preservation of the photographic medium on the blockchain.
00:01:16
Speaker
Danielle interviews collectors for the bi-monthly column, Collectors Corner, on Art3.io, which is the NFT venture of the British Journal of Photography.
00:01:25
Speaker
Danielle graduated from Lesley University College of Art and Design in Boston in 2015 with an MFA in Photography and Integrated Media.
00:01:32
Speaker
With that, welcome Danielle.
00:01:33
Speaker
Thank you for having me.
00:01:35
Speaker
Sure.
00:01:37
Speaker
Great.
00:01:38
Speaker
We were just looking at your amazing work.
00:01:41
Speaker
Yay.
00:01:41
Speaker
And it was fantastic.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:45
Speaker
the secrets of mirrors and small scale and where the material comes from.
00:01:51
Speaker
How does this compare to previous work?
Embracing Complexity in Art
00:01:56
Speaker
Like, is this a continuation or is this something...
00:02:00
Speaker
No, it's very different.
00:02:01
Speaker
At least it's very different aesthetically speaking.
00:02:05
Speaker
I think this is a thing that I've grappled with as long as I've been an artist because I love experimenting and I love playing with what photography can be in the medium of it.
00:02:17
Speaker
And so I've...
00:02:18
Speaker
done historical processes.
00:02:20
Speaker
I've worked in Photoshop.
00:02:21
Speaker
I've like, I, my approach spans many different, um, styles, but I think the underlying concepts and, um, interests are the same.
00:02:32
Speaker
But if you were to look at all the projects, you would be like, how is this from the same person?
00:02:38
Speaker
I don't think that's a bad thing.
00:02:39
Speaker
Nope.
00:02:39
Speaker
I don't think it's a bad thing either.
00:02:41
Speaker
I think that's what I've kind of settled on is that this is like artists are expected to be one thing because it's digestible and easy, but I just, we're people and we're complicated and we like a multitude of things.
00:02:55
Speaker
I contain multitudes.
00:02:57
Speaker
So, you know.
00:02:58
Speaker
Walt Whitman?
00:02:59
Speaker
Sure.
00:03:00
Speaker
Is that?
00:03:01
Speaker
All people.
00:03:02
Speaker
I contain multitudes.
00:03:03
Speaker
That's like a...
00:03:05
Speaker
All people.
00:03:06
Speaker
My wife's a writer.
00:03:07
Speaker
Oh, is that the next line?
00:03:08
Speaker
Oh, no, I don't know.
00:03:09
Speaker
No, and I'm also just poking fun at you.
00:03:13
Speaker
That's a line.
00:03:14
Speaker
It's a good line.
00:03:15
Speaker
It's one of the few ones I remember from... I trust you that it's Walt Whitman.
00:03:21
Speaker
No, you shouldn't.
00:03:22
Speaker
It's a song by Bob Dolan.
00:03:25
Speaker
He's big at the karaoke.
00:03:29
Speaker
I mean, that's true.
00:03:29
Speaker
I don't know why you would bring that up right now.
00:03:31
Speaker
Because lyrics are important to karaoke people.
00:03:33
Speaker
Sure.
00:03:33
Speaker
That's fair.
00:03:34
Speaker
But it's not... I wasn't thinking of Bob Dylan.
00:03:35
Speaker
Walt Whitman's a writer.
00:03:37
Speaker
He's not a singer.
00:03:39
Speaker
I don't know if you know that.
00:03:41
Speaker
I thought you said Bob Dylan.
00:03:42
Speaker
I did.
00:03:43
Speaker
Like, there's a song called I Contain Multitudes by Bob Dylan.
00:03:45
Speaker
I assume... But he's riffing off of... Yeah.
00:03:47
Speaker
Hopefully.
00:03:48
Speaker
Walt Whitman.
00:03:49
Speaker
I had it right.
00:03:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:50
Speaker
Good.
00:03:51
Speaker
Sorry about that.
00:03:52
Speaker
No.
00:03:53
Speaker
I had to check.
00:03:54
Speaker
Please.
00:03:55
Speaker
Um...
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm super excited to talk DAOs and NFTs because they are things that we can talk about without having visuals.
00:04:08
Speaker
I mean, visuals help, obviously.
00:04:10
Speaker
But before we do that, I think I would be interested to know...
Journey into the Metaverse
00:04:15
Speaker
how you entered the metaverse space like how did that happen and why did you have reservations like a lot of people might um and this is something we talk about on the podcast all the time especially with artists that we've been like working with who have not made nfts before um but also we're like we're also getting a little bit past the point of like introduction for a lot of people so anyways how'd you get an emptys
00:04:40
Speaker
Yes to all that.
00:04:41
Speaker
It's been quite a journey.
00:04:44
Speaker
I started investing in crypto, I think, in November of 2017 when it really kind of hit the mainstream, I guess, and things started to skyrocket.
00:04:55
Speaker
And then shortly after that, because I have a lot of friends in new media, I had heard about it maybe in
00:05:02
Speaker
2019-ish and quite honestly did not understand and had no interest in it.
00:05:09
Speaker
And as we were saying in the previous conversation, I like materiality and I like engaging with art in a physical way.
00:05:19
Speaker
And so NFTs at first were like, okay, I don't want to do something more of something I don't like.
00:05:26
Speaker
Like I don't want to
00:05:27
Speaker
be tethered to my computer.
00:05:29
Speaker
And then I think it really wasn't until the spring of last year.
00:05:35
Speaker
And this was even before many photographers had gotten into the space.
00:05:40
Speaker
I started to rethink my approach.
00:05:42
Speaker
And it was at the same time that I was making this project, if not here, then where,
00:05:46
Speaker
where I was really enjoying being on the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Digital Archive and trying to, I guess, refactor how I engage with art.
00:05:57
Speaker
It's like if I can't be in physical spaces with physical objects, then what are other ways that I can be an artist and engage with other people's work?
00:06:07
Speaker
Because I feel like that still needs to happen for me to have a fully enriched life.
00:06:14
Speaker
I would say it was like this April or May of 2021, I guess.
00:06:20
Speaker
I just minted a video, just put it on foundation, not really knowing anything else.
00:06:26
Speaker
Just like, okay, here, it's out there, whatever.
00:06:29
Speaker
Uh, and then it just sat there and I didn't have any other, like, again, like I had some new media friends, but they have like their whole like aesthetic and circuit that is kind of, again, outside of photography that like I was an oddball out, didn't really know how to engage.
00:06:45
Speaker
And so I'm like, okay, that was, um, a thing, a failure.
00:06:49
Speaker
Like that was whatever it was.
00:06:51
Speaker
Is that video still up?
00:06:52
Speaker
It's still up.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:53
Speaker
Someone actually finally bought it more recently.
00:06:57
Speaker
And then in August or September of this past year, some of my photo friends started coming in and people who aesthetically I'm really aligned with.
00:07:08
Speaker
And so I'm just like, okay, this is, this is cool.
00:07:11
Speaker
Let me like revisit, revisit this.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I had a couple of conversations and
00:07:15
Speaker
And, um, from August to October, I basically was like seriously lurking on Twitter and like just seeing who was coming in and like what was happening with photography.
00:07:27
Speaker
And then November, I really started contributing and, uh, I'm part of, uh, ObscuraDAO as a active contributor and then a fellowship trust, both of which, uh,
00:07:40
Speaker
came on the scene in November.
00:07:42
Speaker
And then in January of this year, I released, uh, my first full collection, which is the work that you just saw.
00:07:50
Speaker
Um, so it's been a slow boil and now it's just a, a roaring rolling boil.
00:07:57
Speaker
Like it's just been kind of insane since, uh, November.
00:08:02
Speaker
Cool.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:04
Speaker
Um, and yeah,
00:08:09
Speaker
I guess like the foray into actually like doing your own collection.
00:08:18
Speaker
I like what was so like, obviously, economics is an important part of any artist's career.
00:08:25
Speaker
And a lot of what we talk about when we talk with artists and when we talk with whoever is about
00:08:31
Speaker
economics and speculation and all of these things that are very important, but like somewhat, um, gross a lot of the time and all of these things.
00:08:39
Speaker
And so, uh, you know, like thinking about when you decided to like get into the space, uh, as much as you're willing to share, like how much of it was kind of like about this new economic opportunity and how much of it was about like connecting with new audiences or using this new media and all, all of those things, I guess.
NFTs: Economic Opportunities and Community Building
00:08:55
Speaker
Yeah, all of the above.
00:08:57
Speaker
I think at first I was a little overwhelmed by having to be online more.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I've been on Twitter for 11 years and pretty much didn't start actually using it till six months ago, you know.
00:09:09
Speaker
And the idea of being on Twitter really stressed me out.
00:09:11
Speaker
And even Discord, like all of that, I feel like I'm a
00:09:17
Speaker
an introvert stuck in an extrovert's body or something.
00:09:20
Speaker
Like I have a, I enjoy people, but I need a lot of recovery time.
00:09:23
Speaker
And so being online that much as part of the cost of doing business was, uh, terrifying to me.
00:09:31
Speaker
Um, which I've tried to just like come at head on because it's, it's part of, it's part of this whole community.
00:09:39
Speaker
Um, so
00:09:42
Speaker
There's that.
00:09:43
Speaker
And then do you, do you feel better about like, or do you feel like differently about your engagement on those platforms now than when you started in terms of like how much of your soul they take, uh, for, for lack of a better like description?
00:09:58
Speaker
Yes and no.
00:10:00
Speaker
I'll be quite honest with you.
00:10:03
Speaker
The first week that I like, I told my partner that he's like, you know, you complain about not having community, but then you don't want to engage with community.
00:10:12
Speaker
And he kind of gave me like a test to do this.
00:10:16
Speaker
And so I'm like, fine, I'm going to do this like 100%.
00:10:18
Speaker
And I gave myself like, I'm going to do this really like dedicatedly for a year.
00:10:24
Speaker
Like I'm going to be like very serious about this as like part of my practice and the business component of my work, which is important.
00:10:33
Speaker
And the first like week or so, I definitely cried a couple of times, like no joke, just of like overstimulation.
00:10:40
Speaker
I don't know about the two of you, but for me to make work, sometimes I just need to like be in a room and stare at a wall.
00:10:46
Speaker
And the less I'm in a room staring at a wall with like no stimulation, the more kind of ADD I am.
00:10:53
Speaker
And so having to like refresh Twitter all the time was just like the opposite of what I consider productive.
00:11:00
Speaker
So I have, yes, kind of like got my sea legs for lack of a better word.
00:11:05
Speaker
But I also have very strict guidelines for myself about kind of when I sign in and when I sign off for
00:11:13
Speaker
So I can just preserve my own like mental state basically.
00:11:15
Speaker
So, um, yeah, I have, I, that's how I've made it quote unquote healthy or livable.
00:11:22
Speaker
Sure.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
I mean, yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
When I think about kind of like, I mean the, the amount of engagement we as, as a gallery have on, uh, discord and Twitter is pretty limited still.
00:11:33
Speaker
Um, and I think for a lot of the reasons you described, um,
00:11:36
Speaker
And so when I think about like, if we were to double down or really kind of like get into it, I think I would like have to make a spreadsheet that like is my, is like my shifts.
00:11:47
Speaker
Whereas, you know, people who are crypto natives or are discord natives or whatever, it's just like, it's just natural.
00:11:54
Speaker
It's natural.
00:11:54
Speaker
It's just what they do.
00:11:55
Speaker
Right.
00:11:56
Speaker
And so I'm wondering, I was just curious if kind of like,
00:11:59
Speaker
You know, when you move to a new city, do you kind of like assimilate and get used to the city or do you still like have trouble sometimes taking the train or whatever?
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah, I still have trouble.
00:12:09
Speaker
I am assimilating.
00:12:11
Speaker
It's not, you know, a black and white thing.
00:12:13
Speaker
I am assimilating.
00:12:13
Speaker
It definitely doesn't bother me the way it did.
00:12:16
Speaker
I also am like, I'm...
00:12:18
Speaker
I'm kind of terrified of public speaking, but I do spaces all the time.
00:12:23
Speaker
And like several times a week, I'm doing spaces with groups of people.
00:12:28
Speaker
And that to me in like, you know, last year sounds like unfathomable.
00:12:33
Speaker
So yeah,
00:12:34
Speaker
you know, I'm also kind of the type of person who wants to lean into the sharp points.
00:12:39
Speaker
Like just cause I have a preference for something, I kind of want to call myself out on my own bullshit, you know, and just keep growing.
00:12:46
Speaker
So I've been trying to lean into it, even though, you know, it's exhausting.
00:12:50
Speaker
Sure.
00:12:51
Speaker
And anytime I've used like discord was mostly because I like needed to like connect with somebody or like do a thing.
00:12:58
Speaker
But also every time I've done it, the, the kind of like engagement has been, has felt really good.
00:13:03
Speaker
Um,
00:13:04
Speaker
I think that's also why I keep kind of showing up and coming back is because I've actually made a lot of friends and many of them are really genuine.
00:13:14
Speaker
And that's like, that's fucking awesome.
00:13:18
Speaker
Like it actually, it does feel rejuvenating in, in some ways.
00:13:21
Speaker
And so, you know, it makes it a little easier to keep showing up when the quality of conversations and connection is high.
00:13:28
Speaker
So, yeah.
Understanding DAOs
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker
Have you met any of those people IRL?
00:13:32
Speaker
I have.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:33
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:34
Speaker
In the very beginning of contributing to Obscura, I don't know if you guys are familiar with ObscuraDAO, a photography community that is focused on giving photographers commissions in crypto, like
00:13:50
Speaker
basically money up front to create projects that they want to create which is i think they were the first of their kind definitely for photography but maybe in the crypto space or nft space as a whole um to give folks money up front to do the work they want to do um and they had a like open call for this uh project um
00:14:14
Speaker
who we are, which is 100 photographers shooting, photographing people in the NFT space, whether it's other photographers or curators or writers or whomever that are builders in the space.
00:14:28
Speaker
And you had, I want to say it was like two weeks, maybe three weeks to shoot 10 people, which I
00:14:35
Speaker
is for me an obscene amount of work.
00:14:38
Speaker
And it was like basically a week after I really said I was going to dedicate myself to like getting in the space.
00:14:44
Speaker
I didn't have any friends, so I didn't have any like NFT friends.
00:14:48
Speaker
So I had to go and find people on the internet and then meet them in person.
00:14:53
Speaker
And so it kind of like, I just jumped in the deep end and it was, it was really good.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I'm friends with everybody who I photographed.
00:14:58
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:00
Speaker
That's great.
00:15:01
Speaker
For our listeners,
00:15:04
Speaker
Since you have a lot more experience than we do as far as DAOs are concerned, can you give us a simple definition of what DAO is and what it can be?
00:15:12
Speaker
Because we talk about it often, but it's, I guess, more theoretical because we haven't really, we'd like to dive into at some point as a collective model for our gallery in some capacity.
00:15:25
Speaker
But I'm curious to hear you speak about it firsthand.
00:15:29
Speaker
I just think of it as basically like a co-op.
00:15:33
Speaker
Just everybody who's part of the organization has a stake in the company or the organization.
00:15:39
Speaker
So that can be organized however the people in the DAO see fit.
00:15:46
Speaker
You know, there's usually some kind of like rules that go along with that, like what everybody's responsibilities are.
00:15:51
Speaker
But there's like
00:15:52
Speaker
voting rights and everybody has a say in how the organization grows and evolves and they all get some kind of equal share of whatever the either profits or benefits of being in that DAO is.
00:16:07
Speaker
I think outside of that, it can kind of be anything it wants to be.
00:16:13
Speaker
And I think that term is, if I'm being honest, probably used like fast and loose in the NFT community because like, you know,
00:16:21
Speaker
I think everybody wants to be a DAO now.
00:16:23
Speaker
It's like any kind of collective person.
00:16:25
Speaker
And some of those have like a legal structure behind them and some of them don't.
00:16:30
Speaker
And, you know, I think it's just, it can be a little open-ended right now.
00:16:36
Speaker
But the hope is that everybody, it's not like a, it's not a hierarchy where there's like executives and then people working for those executives, but everybody has some kind of equal part of,
00:16:47
Speaker
And the voting process tokenized as far as how one participates?
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think it depends on the DAO, but yeah, totally.
00:16:56
Speaker
So is Obscura DAO, does everybody have the same voting rights or are there some people who have more votes?
00:17:02
Speaker
So they're in the process of becoming a DAO.
00:17:05
Speaker
They're not officially a DAO yet, even though their name is Obscura DAO, but they're in a
00:17:12
Speaker
like an opening up process.
00:17:13
Speaker
Formalizing.
00:17:14
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:17:15
Speaker
But I think like, for instance, there's RawDAO, which is a photo initiative that collects art.
00:17:23
Speaker
And yeah, you can buy into tokens or be gifted tokens based on community engagement and then founding members.
00:17:32
Speaker
And I imagine it's based on like, in their case, like how many tokens you have
00:17:36
Speaker
is how much like weight you have in the voting process as i understand it um that was that was always my understanding of kind of how it would work yeah um but you could you could make it so that nobody can have more tokens than anyone else totally which i think could be interesting yeah and i think with raw dow and i can't like officially speak to it because i don't know the the inner workings of how they do it but they have like i think they're trying to figure out what they're
00:18:02
Speaker
um, curation model is and they're trying to
PlayDAO and Experimental Photography
00:18:04
Speaker
have it.
00:18:04
Speaker
So it's as democratic as possible.
00:18:06
Speaker
And so you don't have it where like people who have the most tokens are making the most decisions about curation and collection.
00:18:12
Speaker
Um, and I don't know if they've landed on a particular model yet, but I know that there's been a lot of conversation about like how to have this be as democratic as possible, but then also like have the community really influence what's being collected because it's a community doubt.
00:18:28
Speaker
So yeah.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, when we've talked about it, you know, one of the things.
00:18:35
Speaker
that we love about doing the gallery is that we get to curate shows and have control over that.
00:18:41
Speaker
And that's like this one thing.
00:18:43
Speaker
And then, but also we love collective action and community.
00:18:46
Speaker
And so trying to have both of those things as separate entities is something that we've definitely talked about.
00:18:53
Speaker
And so, you know, just naturally, cause we're doing NFT stuff, the DAO is interesting.
00:18:59
Speaker
You co-founded one also.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, PlayDAO, which I think we fall on the looser end of the spectrum.
00:19:06
Speaker
It's not formal in any means, but a group of, I would say it's about 10 photographers all over the country that we're really interested in curation in the space and having new conversations around photography.
00:19:24
Speaker
inclusion and experimentation.
00:19:26
Speaker
So like photographers that aren't getting a lot of representation right now.
00:19:31
Speaker
And then how can we curate shows that really encourage photographers and artists to play and think about their media in a new and exciting way?
00:19:43
Speaker
So we're in the works with curating a series of shows around the idea of gamification.
00:19:49
Speaker
And so the first show, which is in the works right now, is based off the game Telephone.
00:19:56
Speaker
So the photographers in the show are asked to pull from their archive and...
00:20:02
Speaker
Each one will respond to the photograph before it.
00:20:04
Speaker
So it's like whether that's formal or conceptual or whatever, and you can't make new work, you have to pull from your archive.
00:20:12
Speaker
And the, I mean, we're still kind of working out the logistics of how it's going to be presented.
00:20:19
Speaker
But hopefully the curation and how the auctions are triggered will be similar to a telephone chain.
00:20:27
Speaker
Cool.
00:20:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:28
Speaker
That sounds awesome.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:30
Speaker
Um, but so for the, for PlayDow, you don't have any programmers.
00:20:35
Speaker
We don't have any programmers.
00:20:36
Speaker
It's just a bunch of photographers on a discord blindly kind of finding our way through things.
00:20:42
Speaker
And we're like so early that like, who knows exactly what's going to happen.
00:20:46
Speaker
But, um, the exciting part was just getting us all in a virtual room as it were.
00:20:51
Speaker
I think that's great.
00:20:51
Speaker
Just like go at it.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
And none of us were really versed either when we first started, too.
00:21:00
Speaker
So I think it was cool to just kind of go in blind and be like, okay, what does this mean?
00:21:06
Speaker
I don't understand.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
I mean, if there's one thing that's positive about all of this, like whatever...
00:21:13
Speaker
hype bubble that's bursting, blah, blah, blah.
NFTs Reshaping Art Communities
00:21:16
Speaker
Is it like got a bunch of people excited about stuff that didn't exist before and like had a bunch of folks meeting other people and talking about interesting things?
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, in some ways it's kind of a shame that most of the press, I feel like, about NFTs I think actually deeply misses the point, like the thrust of what's happening, which is very community-driven and very like, this is a new platform slash medium slash opportunity.
00:21:44
Speaker
Let's just like throw out all the rules and see what sticks type of behavior.
00:21:49
Speaker
And that to me is like, should be very in line with NFTs.
00:21:52
Speaker
artists.
00:21:52
Speaker
Right.
00:21:53
Speaker
And so, yes, there's big money flying around, but that's not the only thing that's happening.
00:21:58
Speaker
And it's not the majority of what's happening.
00:22:00
Speaker
It's just everybody wants to click on an article about some artist who made an obscene amount of money because it's, it's clickbait, you know?
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
It is like the best clickbait.
00:22:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:12
Speaker
I mean, I'm curious too.
00:22:14
Speaker
It's not, I'm not like, you know, I mean, we like partially exist because that clickbait exists.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
00:22:19
Speaker
Of course.
00:22:20
Speaker
I'm me as well.
00:22:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:22
Speaker
But it just illuminated this new avenue.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:26
Speaker
I mean, what art does it like to play around with the latest technology or even defunct technology?
00:22:32
Speaker
Like, this will be something in the past.
00:22:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:22:34
Speaker
I mean, it's our role as artists to be curious, right?
00:22:37
Speaker
So it's like, I am always shocked when people put blinders onto something because maybe it's getting a bad rap or it's whatever it is.
00:22:44
Speaker
It's like, I don't know.
00:22:44
Speaker
It's a new thing.
00:22:45
Speaker
Why don't you just, like, poke it for a while and see what comes out?
00:22:48
Speaker
And you don't have to like it.
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:51
Speaker
But yeah, and coming back to I think what you said in the very beginning about like the economy of things like I feel like as artists and maybe people in general were kind of primed to not talk about money because it's unsavory.
00:23:06
Speaker
But at the end of the day, unless you're really super privileged, like we're trying to.
00:23:11
Speaker
We're trying to eat from making art, which is already a ridiculous sentiment to begin with.
00:23:17
Speaker
And I, I'm an advocate of just talking about things in a transparent way.
00:23:21
Speaker
And so I'm an advocate for artists making money, whatever amount that is like, I'm an advocate for artists making money and being able to.
00:23:30
Speaker
uh, further the thing that fuels their work and fuels their life.
00:23:34
Speaker
Like to me, there's no reason to have any kind of shame around talking about that stuff because if you don't talk about it, then it doesn't help anybody.
00:23:43
Speaker
Like, you know, and I mean, same goes for non-artists, right?
00:23:47
Speaker
Everybody needs to make money and eat.
00:23:49
Speaker
And if we could all do it in the most ethical ways possible, we probably would.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:53
Speaker
But you can't.
00:23:54
Speaker
So you like do the best you can.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:58
Speaker
I feel like that fall, that fallacy of the artist, the starving artists or the artists who doesn't necessarily want to deal with the monetary side.
00:24:06
Speaker
It just deteriorates the whole form because it's like, it's, it just puts you at a disadvantage.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
I have a bone to pick with that whole mentality and, and I don't know how you guys feel about this, but I feel like there's no graduate program or undergraduate program really that as a fine artist that prepares you for that side of it.
00:24:25
Speaker
And that side of it is,
00:24:28
Speaker
80% of it, you know?
00:24:29
Speaker
So it's like, you know, you're investing a lot of money in yourself to go to school.
00:24:33
Speaker
Most of us probably aren't getting grants, aren't, you know?
00:24:36
Speaker
So it's like you're shelling out a lot of money to do this thing and you want to come out of it not only being a better artist formally, but also being
00:24:45
Speaker
And being able to navigate the business side of it because it's the thing that is going to probably determine whether or not you continue doing it.
00:24:55
Speaker
Unless you are privileged.
00:24:57
Speaker
And kudos to those that are in that department.
00:25:01
Speaker
No shame in that either.
00:25:04
Speaker
Privileged and talented.
00:25:06
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:07
Speaker
Well, yeah.
00:25:08
Speaker
I mean, you know, we don't have to go down that road.
00:25:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:11
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I, I just like that has not been my experience and I've, I've fought for everything that I have.
00:25:16
Speaker
And so, yeah, I want to make money.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:19
Speaker
I want to live off of my art and I'm fine with hustling for it, but yeah, I think that's completely a reasonable thing for an artist to want.
00:25:28
Speaker
Totally.
00:25:29
Speaker
And to go back to the NFT conversation,
00:25:33
Speaker
to give the artists another avenue that they can possibly utilize.
00:25:36
Speaker
And again, I don't think anyone outside of those $60 million sales or whatever, we're talking about like just nominal fees for these pieces of work, um, that could just sustain a practice.
00:25:49
Speaker
Um, maybe the, maybe you continue with your side job or whatever, but you still have some of this, this other means that comes in.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:57
Speaker
That is part and parcel of your, it's your artwork.
00:26:01
Speaker
So it's, you know, it's connected to the thing you don't have to, and to be able to not have to do the day job and possibly work and live off of something like NFT sales would be amazing.
00:26:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:14
Speaker
And or even just to be able to do things piecemeal.
00:26:16
Speaker
I mean, I, I mean, I've already been accustomed to that.
00:26:20
Speaker
I own my own retouching business and have been exhibiting for 15 or so years.
00:26:26
Speaker
And so it's like whatever, whatever I can do to use my expertise to create.
00:26:32
Speaker
make money and to get my work out there and to just be as like versatile and fluent as possible, then I'm, I'm going to do that.
00:26:40
Speaker
Like, so to me, this is just another, uh, tool to do that.
00:26:43
Speaker
And it's actually from the, from the get go has been very beneficial for me in that way, aside from just the community and everything.
00:26:50
Speaker
Like I'm, uh,
00:26:52
Speaker
as you mentioned in the intro, I, I write as well.
00:26:54
Speaker
And so I've been doing a lot of writing for these other organizations.
00:26:58
Speaker
Um, so that is something that I get paid for in ETH, which is wild and weird and wonderful.
00:27:04
Speaker
Uh, and then the, the sales that I've made, uh, you know, it's not life changing, but it is like, it is great.
00:27:11
Speaker
Like it's, it's been like, uh, immediately beneficial, which is awesome.
00:27:17
Speaker
Like that's a, that's a good thing.
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:21
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:27:22
Speaker
I think it's like and with everything, excuse me, kind of like blowing up and crashing and who knows where we're going from here.
00:27:32
Speaker
But that's like long run, I think is ideal for people who are trying to make work like we're trying to make and show work.
00:27:41
Speaker
It's going to create like a much more.
00:27:44
Speaker
sustainable environment for people to support artists that they want to support without thinking about speculation and flipping things all the time and actually thinking about like supporting artists that they think are good for the long term.
00:27:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
What do you think having engaged in the technology for, I guess, over a year?
Future of NFTs: Contracts and Impact
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, about that.
00:28:07
Speaker
What do you think the future looks like?
00:28:10
Speaker
I mean, it's really hard to predict, right?
00:28:13
Speaker
I don't know if I have any concrete ideas.
00:28:16
Speaker
I think the idea of an NFT as a contract, it's very multiplicitous, right?
00:28:24
Speaker
And so I think the NFT is around a stay, if you think about it as this contract and this interaction, that
00:28:30
Speaker
to me is unquestionable.
00:28:32
Speaker
It's been immediately useful.
00:28:35
Speaker
Banks have adopted.
00:28:36
Speaker
I think we're past the point of whether or not it's going to stick around, but in what shape?
00:28:41
Speaker
I have no clue.
00:28:43
Speaker
No clue at all.
00:28:46
Speaker
I kind of like that.
00:28:48
Speaker
I kind of dislike the fact that this could just be a moment in time and then remember when we made that stupid NFT?
00:28:54
Speaker
Remember when we made that silly thing?
00:28:57
Speaker
I love that it doesn't have to be
00:29:00
Speaker
it doesn't have to be permanent, even though we do talk about permanency a lot in this, but there, you know what I mean?
00:29:05
Speaker
In, in the, whatever trend that it is right now.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
And I also think about like thinking, like thinking of yourself in the future, looking back, like negates the entire, whatever amount of years that happen between now and our future selves, where we would be continuing to engage with however this thing forms.
00:29:24
Speaker
Right.
00:29:25
Speaker
And so it's not like, um,
00:29:28
Speaker
Like if it is a trend, it's not like it just stops and then goes away, right?
00:29:35
Speaker
It stops and turns into something else.
00:29:36
Speaker
And those energies and conceptual interests move in other places and they're connected and tangential.
00:29:44
Speaker
And so like whatever happens in 20 years will still be connected to this moment in a way that's not just a fad or whatever, right?
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think I feel like most people when they think of NFTs, they think actually of PFPs kind of like, excuse me, kind of like Beanie Babies.
Traditional Art vs. NFTs: A New Paradigm
00:30:02
Speaker
Like there's no way that can be around forever is I think the natural sentiment.
00:30:07
Speaker
And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but that's not blockchain and that's not like the underlying technology.
00:30:14
Speaker
And that's the more interesting part to me is like what the how the technology functions and what the possibility is.
00:30:22
Speaker
The underlying like decentralization, I think is once that really gets implemented fully and maybe we lean more towards a Web3 kind of mentality and less of a Web2 mentality, then things are going to get really interesting, I think.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good way to describe it.
00:30:41
Speaker
Because whenever I see the comments about like, oh, it's just like Beanie Babies, I'm like, I was like, no, it's not.
00:30:45
Speaker
But if you're thinking of NFTs as just PFPs, then yes, it is just like Beanie Babies.
00:30:49
Speaker
But I think that's how most people think of it, because it's actually kind of hard to wrap your brain around.
00:30:54
Speaker
Like even if you're really dedicated to it, it's kind of like, what the fuck is going on here?
00:31:00
Speaker
But if you can get past that part, then-
00:31:02
Speaker
Which is funny because that's like what we're trying to get people past.
00:31:04
Speaker
And I haven't even like, I mean, I know that the mainstream understanding is limited and mostly limited to PFPs.
00:31:12
Speaker
But to think about the kind of like counter argument of what people have for it being connected to that specific understanding, I think I just like haven't.
00:31:20
Speaker
necessarily processed before.
00:31:22
Speaker
So yeah, I, I suspect this has to do one of the things that has to do with is how people conceptualize and like place value on things.
00:31:30
Speaker
And I think there's this, like an art object needs to be an object and it needs to be physical and therefore there's no physical thing.
00:31:39
Speaker
And on top of it, maybe the aesthetic of a PFP is like in terms of art world, you know, standards is like,
00:31:48
Speaker
It's you can't hold it.
00:31:49
Speaker
And it's an ape.
00:31:50
Speaker
Like, you know, like the two, those two things.
00:31:53
Speaker
It's not good.
00:31:53
Speaker
You're saying it's not good.
00:31:55
Speaker
No comment.
00:31:57
Speaker
No comment.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:00
Speaker
So the physicality, like you were saying, the people holding onto the actual objectness of a thing, but for ever photographers, you know,
00:32:07
Speaker
It's been immaterial.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:09
Speaker
Right.
00:32:09
Speaker
I mean, I think it's that's why it's kind of perfect for photography.
00:32:13
Speaker
Like it there's as photographers, we have been putting our digital work on the Internet for marketing purposes to connect with other people and to get sales.
00:32:26
Speaker
But in this very indirect way.
00:32:27
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:32:28
Speaker
where we can't actually like, as our images like go viral or disseminate, we can't actually collect any kind of royalties off of that.
00:32:37
Speaker
So this like is in some ways the most natural fit.
00:32:40
Speaker
Like there's a way to actually have a royalty system built into the image moving around and you want it to move, you know, you want people to share it.
00:32:49
Speaker
You want it to like spread like that's, and it supports the artist.
00:32:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
I don't know who the actress was, but she wore a dress or something that said Getty Images on it.
00:32:59
Speaker
It was printed.
00:33:00
Speaker
Oh, no.
00:33:01
Speaker
So it looked like... Oh, it looked like the watermark?
00:33:03
Speaker
The watermark.
00:33:04
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
Was this at like the Met Gala or something?
00:33:10
Speaker
I feel like.
00:33:12
Speaker
It's one of the awards.
00:33:13
Speaker
Are you sure you weren't just looking at a Getty Images picture?
00:33:15
Speaker
No, no.
00:33:16
Speaker
She purposely did it.
00:33:17
Speaker
I think she did a really good job.
00:33:19
Speaker
Awesome.
00:33:20
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't thought about that.
00:33:21
Speaker
Like photographers who are invested in the history of photography who are like against digital digitization of photography where when...
00:33:28
Speaker
It started, people were like, this is garbage.
00:33:30
Speaker
You can addition it.
00:33:31
Speaker
It's not a real object.
00:33:32
Speaker
You can make as many as you want.
00:33:33
Speaker
And then being like, now being like, this is garbage.
00:33:35
Speaker
You can't like put this out.
00:33:36
Speaker
It's the same conversation.
00:33:38
Speaker
I just find it to be wholly uncreative.
00:33:41
Speaker
Like it's just silly.
Physical vs. Digital Books: A Personal Take
00:33:42
Speaker
It's even like thinking that like audio books or, you know, digital books are going to like
00:33:47
Speaker
now the real book is like completely obsolete.
00:33:50
Speaker
It's like, no, it's just another thing.
00:33:52
Speaker
I just got a book on hold that I was reading on my Kindle because the book was on hold.
00:33:59
Speaker
And I love reading on my Kindle and I had like 30 pages left, but my hold came in and I was like, well, I have to go get it or else I'm like that person who has them transport the book to my local library and I just like let it sit there.
00:34:13
Speaker
So I went and got it and I read like the last 30 pages.
00:34:16
Speaker
In the real book, which I like having both options, especially like for reading at home versus on the train or whatever.
00:34:24
Speaker
But it was kind of a dumb thing.
00:34:25
Speaker
Like, I think that I would have not got it if it didn't take so long.
00:34:30
Speaker
But I also felt good about reading the last 30 pages out of the physical book.
00:34:34
Speaker
I actually usually get multiple copies of a book.
00:34:38
Speaker
I like, I have a built-in bookshelf and it's filled to the brim.
00:34:43
Speaker
I cannot fit any more in it, even though I would like to.
00:34:45
Speaker
And so I always buy the digital version or audio if, if they have it.
00:34:50
Speaker
And if I really, really like it, then I'll buy the physical copy and then probably reread it again.
00:34:55
Speaker
Um, just cause I'm a bookworm, but, um, yeah, I, I like both.
00:34:59
Speaker
And, you know, hopefully, you know, that money, double money goes to the artist and I'm like, okay, whatever it's 20 bucks or whatever.
00:35:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:07
Speaker
I know.
00:35:07
Speaker
I know.
00:35:08
Speaker
I guess if you buy it through Amazon, especially, but yeah.
00:35:10
Speaker
But I think scientifically it's been proven that you do retain more from actually reading from a physical book.
00:35:18
Speaker
I believe that.
00:35:18
Speaker
For whatever reason.
00:35:19
Speaker
That can't be true.
00:35:20
Speaker
There's no way.
00:35:20
Speaker
I believe it.
00:35:21
Speaker
I do not believe that.
00:35:22
Speaker
I think this is like what we said about like being on the computer and watching a movie while you're working.
00:35:29
Speaker
Like you're watching it, but you're not really watching.
00:35:31
Speaker
Like if I'm listening to an audio book, I like it because I get lulled into the story, but I couldn't tell you anything.
00:35:37
Speaker
Oh, audio book.
00:35:38
Speaker
Not e-book.
00:35:39
Speaker
Even e-book.
00:35:41
Speaker
You're going to have to send me the study.
00:35:43
Speaker
The study with college students doing the textbook, physical textbook versus the textbook.
00:35:51
Speaker
Virtual textbook.
00:35:51
Speaker
I wonder if it's a tactile sensation, like tactile memory or something.
00:35:55
Speaker
Or if it's... Or you can highlight.
00:35:57
Speaker
Or if it's context, right?
00:35:58
Speaker
You can highlight digital.
00:35:59
Speaker
You can, but it's like... Not the same.
00:36:00
Speaker
Like the context of when they pull it out and read it because it's easier and maybe that means they're more distracted or something.
00:36:06
Speaker
You got to carry around a big book.
00:36:07
Speaker
All right, maybe.
00:36:08
Speaker
But it also pisses me off that I can't... I mean, I love when I do read a good book.
00:36:13
Speaker
I love...
00:36:14
Speaker
one of my favorite things is to share it with someone else.
00:36:15
Speaker
So you can't even share the... You can send your eBooks to people.
00:36:19
Speaker
If you're on the same eBook thing, don't I have to share the same Amazon account or something with you?
00:36:24
Speaker
No, you can gift them too.
00:36:27
Speaker
You can gift them the book that I own?
00:36:29
Speaker
It's very similar to NFT.
00:36:31
Speaker
I don't know if you've heard of them.
00:36:33
Speaker
You can send it to their eBook wallet.
00:36:35
Speaker
I've found it very difficult to share my digital books with other people.
00:36:39
Speaker
But it's true, right?
00:36:39
Speaker
You can do that.
00:36:41
Speaker
I have never shared one with someone else.
00:36:44
Speaker
I have bought other digital books for people though.
00:36:47
Speaker
And can you buy my digital book if I own a digital book?
00:36:51
Speaker
I don't think there's a secondary market.
00:36:52
Speaker
No, there's no secondary market.
00:36:55
Speaker
Which is kind of a scam because they're like, well, it's digital, so there's not really a secondary market, but we do have a scarce amount of books.
00:37:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:37:02
Speaker
And we almost charge as much as the physical book.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:05
Speaker
I mean, I have never bought an e-book.
00:37:08
Speaker
I only use the library for them, but I don't think I would buy an e-book.
00:37:14
Speaker
That's stupid.
00:37:16
Speaker
Wow.
00:37:16
Speaker
Wow.
00:37:17
Speaker
Throwing down the gauntlet.
00:37:18
Speaker
I'm just kidding.
00:37:19
Speaker
Oh, my goodness.
00:37:19
Speaker
Those are so fighting words.
00:37:21
Speaker
Towards the end, I should get a little aggressive or something.
00:37:23
Speaker
I don't know what we're doing here.
00:37:25
Speaker
Mandatory aggression.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:27
Speaker
Okay.
00:37:27
Speaker
Anyway, I guess to wrap things up, talking about physical and the immaterial, the series that you were showing us and the way you were talking about it as a mobile, mobile?
00:37:41
Speaker
Mobile.
00:37:42
Speaker
Mobile?
00:37:43
Speaker
Alabama?
00:37:43
Speaker
Mobile.
00:37:44
Speaker
Mobile.
00:37:45
Speaker
Mobile.
00:37:46
Speaker
When it's physical and when it's printed as a photograph versus an NFT, how do you come at it and what do you take out of it?
00:37:54
Speaker
How do I come at it?
00:37:55
Speaker
Can you explain?
00:37:56
Speaker
Are there differences to you as far as the modes of display and dispersion?
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:02
Speaker
I kind of just think of them as separate things altogether.
00:38:05
Speaker
And because I haven't made physical prints of that project yet in their like final form, not like just tests.
00:38:13
Speaker
I haven't fully grappled with what the differences will be, but I want to take advantage of the fact that there are differences and
00:38:22
Speaker
And I'm totally fine with that.
00:38:24
Speaker
I think they function differently.
00:38:25
Speaker
And so like you're going to see an NFT probably in the metaverse somewhere and it'll have a certain kind of aura for lack of a better word.
00:38:33
Speaker
And then a gallery space will have a different experience.
00:38:37
Speaker
I'm also in the early stages of making a book of the project.
00:38:40
Speaker
So that will have a totally different experience than either of those things.
00:38:44
Speaker
The scrolls that you saw that were hanging on the wall, they, I mean, they could be made into NFTs, but because of the dimension it's
00:38:52
Speaker
not really practical to have them as NFTs.
00:38:54
Speaker
At least right now, none of the like marketplaces can display them in a way that looks elegant.
00:38:59
Speaker
Right.
00:38:59
Speaker
Let's say like a custom screen or something.
00:39:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:02
Speaker
So it's like, you know, there's things that you'll, that are going to be unique to the physical environment.
00:39:08
Speaker
exhibition experience and unique to the book experience and unique to the NFT experience.
00:39:13
Speaker
And so just making sure that I'm intentional with each of those different experiences, I think is the most important part.
00:39:20
Speaker
And then having, you know, letting those differences shine.
00:39:24
Speaker
That, you had given me a recommendation for a podcast.
00:39:30
Speaker
Did I?
00:39:32
Speaker
Documentum, I think it's called.
00:39:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:39:34
Speaker
And now I have another podcast I have to listen to every single episode.
00:39:37
Speaker
But the ones I listened to, the gentleman started a NFT book, photo book company.
00:39:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was Chris Graves who was being interviewed.
00:39:48
Speaker
Chris Graves Projects, he is also the curator for Quantum, a really talented photographer and kind of, I guess, a champion for the space and, you know, a big player, as it were.
00:40:03
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:40:05
Speaker
Uh, and that's a great podcast too.
00:40:06
Speaker
Uh, I feel like everybody that they've had on there, it's like just started Kim Beal, uh, Clea McKenna, Chris Graves, Gregory Eddie Jones, a couple others, I think, but yeah, it's a really good, uh, uh, yeah.
00:40:20
Speaker
No, but it was, it was fascinating because they were talking about how, um, photographers have for years put out eBooks and it just like, no one really even pays attention to them.
00:40:29
Speaker
But the idea of like, uh,
00:40:31
Speaker
Applying scarcity to them through the NFT and having it as a, I guess it was a token that unlocks the content.
00:40:38
Speaker
As I understand it.
00:40:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:40
Speaker
I haven't seen the actual product, but they're, they're working on it.
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker
They have, I think definitely one book that is already out and apparently, so Chris, as I understand it, you know, he has his publishing company who has been publishing books for some amount of time, a couple of years or more decade.
00:40:58
Speaker
Um, and I think what he said on that podcast was that the amount of, um, sales and success that they had from this first launch of Morningstar was the book, um, was, um,
00:41:14
Speaker
Great incentive.
00:41:15
Speaker
Like it was very successful, which is fantastic to hear that it has a different has left a different impression than the digital photo book, especially if the cost of the NFT photo book can help offset his press or like be fuel fueling other initiatives that he does.
00:41:34
Speaker
That's super exciting.
00:41:35
Speaker
And I think rarity, I think is since that's built into it, that I think is what is the factor there that's helping things along.
00:41:44
Speaker
Very cool.
00:41:44
Speaker
Very exciting.
00:41:48
Speaker
I think that's good, right?
00:41:50
Speaker
Everyone good?
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:52
Speaker
This is wonderful.
00:41:53
Speaker
That's great.
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, thank you so much.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:55
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:56
Speaker
Thank you.
00:42:02
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
00:42:11
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at Lydian Stater NYC on Instagram, and follow us at Lydian Stater on Twitter.
00:42:19
Speaker
Thanks to Danielle Ezzo for taking the time to speak to us this week.
00:42:22
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about her work, check out our website at danielleezzo.com.
00:42:27
Speaker
Big thanks to Tal Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
00:42:31
Speaker
His albums are available at talwan.bandcamp.com.
00:42:34
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
00:42:39
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:42:42
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:42:46
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:42:47
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:42:48
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be.