Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
Speaker: Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
Speaker: Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
Speaker: I know what to do.
Speaker: I know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be like you.
Speaker: I know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to.
Speaker: This week's guest is Brian Alfred.
Speaker: Brian Alfred is an artist, podcaster, educator, and curator based out of Brooklyn who has shown his work internationally for the past 20 years.
Speaker: He is the recipient of an American Academy of Arts and Letters Purchase Award, the NYFA Inspiration Award, and the Pollack Krasner Foundation Grant.
Speaker: He's an alumnus of Yale, Skowhegan, and Penn State.
Speaker: His work is in the collections of institutions such as the Guggenheim Museum, the Whitney Museum, and others.
Speaker: He is the host of Sound and Vision, one of the top visual arts podcasts in the world.
Speaker: Hey, how's it going?
Speaker: What's up, Ryan?
Speaker: Hey, how's it going?
Speaker: It took a second because that link wasn't working.
Speaker: So I just manually entered in the meeting information.
Speaker: Sorry about that.
Speaker: All good.
Speaker: You look all professional there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How so?
Speaker: My fatigued face?
Speaker: Is that professionalism?
Speaker: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker: No, I think it's mostly just that mic stand because every time we record not in person, we have to figure out how to set up our mics and mine's like rubber banded to a tripod right now.
Speaker: So I think investing in some of those mic arms would be good.
Speaker: They're pretty cheap.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's funny because, uh,
Speaker: A lot of times when I interview people there, or if I'm in a faculty meeting or something like that, I use this just because it's set up, you know, and everyone's always like, oh, this is like super professional.
Speaker: It's a pretty low budget operation.
Speaker: You're like 1999 on Amazon.
Speaker: Yeah, this is my son makes fun of me because this boom arm is like super not fancy.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because there's like there's like actual nice ones that are cool that the gamers use and stuff.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're all seamless and like, you know, amazing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you have a rig for like remote stuff?
Speaker: Do you go to other people's studios?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I used to do all my podcasts in person or at least 99%.
Speaker: But I just have like, you know,
Speaker: They're just little tabletop things.
Speaker: I usually don't set this up.
Speaker: I mean, I could bring a boom arm, but it's like this little guy.
Speaker: And you record into like a Zoom or something?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I use USB mics.
Speaker: Oh, you go right into your laptop?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Why bother with all that other stuff?
Speaker: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Although, yeah.
Speaker: And I just use like a couple of these roadies that I take on the road.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: But yeah, the whole mixing interface thing, I think, only matters if you have more than one or two people.
Speaker: Or if you have a lot of mics.
Speaker: But I'm not doing real-time mixing and stuff.
Speaker: It's just not necessary.
Speaker: Everything, you could do it in a computer.
Speaker: And when I was driving around and doing this stuff, I didn't want to lug too much stuff around.
Speaker: It was enough as it is.
Speaker: And then last question about audio.
Speaker: What do you use for recording into your laptop?
Speaker: It's super fancy.
Speaker: GarageBand?
Speaker: Yeah, I use GarageBand.
Speaker: I mean, I've used Audition before, but it's just too many bells and whistles.
Speaker: It's literally like a voice going into the computer.
Speaker: So, GarageBand is what I use.
Speaker: I have the Zoom as a backup just in case.
Speaker: What's up?
Speaker: Go ahead.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: Oh, I was just asking.
Speaker: We use GarageBand, right, Alex?
Speaker: Yeah, we use GarageBand as well.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Brian, does your son... I mean, I spent years recording and like I can use Pro Tools, like, well, back when I was younger, Pro Tools and that stuff, but it's a voice, you know, it's very easy.
Speaker: I imagine your son has way more patience for the DAW, is that what they call them?
Speaker: What is that?
Speaker: ProLogic and all that software.
Speaker: Oh, digital audio.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, he does film stuff.
Speaker: So he's into that whole... Yeah, there's so many programs.
Speaker: It's really...
Speaker: Cool, but daunting.
Speaker: I mean, I teach digital painting and, you know, I teach the act of it now.
Speaker: Like instead of, you know, I used to say, we're going to use Procreate or we're going to use, you know, like Adobe.
Speaker: But then these kids have so many different programs.
Speaker: I can't learn all this program.
Speaker: I mean, I would spend my whole life trying to figure out all these programs.
Speaker: So I just teach the act of doing it.
Speaker: Then, you know, they show me like, oh, this is in this program, you could do this.
Speaker: Oh, that's cool.
Speaker: You know, but there's just so much out there.
Speaker: You can't.
Speaker: That's why GarageBand is so easy and simple.
Speaker: You know, I first started recording into a four track.
Speaker: That was super easy.
Speaker: With Tim.
Speaker: Now you have the end of the world.
Speaker: You know, you can do anything.
Speaker: It's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it's just starting to happen in educational programs, but like moving away from software specific courses and into kind of like translatable skills that you can use in a bunch of, in like any program, because there are so many now and so many that are
Speaker: open source too, which is like huge for equity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Um, so that was, that's definitely been a shift.
Speaker: I teach also, and that's been a shift in my thinking is like how to, uh, you know, cause it's so easy to like do these demos that teach kids skills and conceptual ideas at the same time.
Speaker: But I'm, I'm like often going in from the software perspective, uh, cause it's, cause it's easy.
Speaker: Um, and so to have to flip it a little bit is a fun challenge.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: Yeah, these, you know, in teaching art,
Speaker: there's this feeling of like, well, do you teach how, what's the balance?
Speaker: What's the ratio of like actual, you know, application of things.
Speaker: And then the sort of conceptual and idea side of things.
Speaker: And nowadays with digital stuff, it's just like, you have, you go conceptual because otherwise you can't, and everyone can tutorial and everything anyway.
Speaker: So you can figure out how to do it.
Speaker: It's like, you know, do you, do you want to,
Speaker: It's like I had a studio visit in grad school with Matthew Ritchie and he came in and he's like, all right, do you want me to spend this half hour talking about how you can make your lines crisp and straight in your paintings or do you want to talk about ideas?
Speaker: And I felt part of me was like, oh, it'd be cool to know that.
Speaker: Ideas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can't watch YouTube videos.
Speaker: You can't watch YouTube videos that like help you change your like how you view the world or like change your paradigms.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Those have to happen through through conversations.
Speaker: Or through experiences or other things.
Speaker: Or the app.
Speaker: You can, but it's like hundreds of hours of lectures and just to get like a little snippet.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And to be able to back and forth, right?
Speaker: To be able to like try out some ideas as a learner on somebody who has so much knowledge and then like see how they react.
Speaker: And then that like gives you new information.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: That's one of the things I've enjoyed the most about doing this podcast is like learning, feeling like I'm like learning about myself through conversations with other people.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: You learn a lot, I think.
Speaker: I laughed before when you were talking about something serious because I noticed you actually do have like rubber bands holding your microphone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're not even like, no, that's like, yeah, that's, I thought that was an exaggeration, but I love that you MacGyvered that thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We usually have a better setup.
Speaker: It's all like sitting at the gallery and we're, we're separated because it's summer and everybody's doing summer things.
Speaker: So the, yeah, the remote setup is very DIY.
Speaker: It works though.
Speaker: You know, when I first started doing it, I was worried about it, you know, it's like, well, well, internet signal.
Speaker: And then it was like,
Speaker: You know, because I used to sit right next to people, but it's pretty close.
Speaker: I mean, there's certain things you don't get, like parking tickets.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And, you know, the smell and feel of someone sitting like three feet away.
Speaker: But, you know, th is is pretty good, all things considered.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I also think that kind of like long form conversation type podcasts, you know, like the listeners are a little less concerned with production value and a little more concerned with the content.
Speaker: So as long as you can hear what everybody's saying, I think it's all good.
Speaker: Yeah, I try to make it as good as possible, though, because if the people listen to it now and it sounds crappy.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker: It gets so old.
Speaker: It's funny because during the pandemic, so many big production podcasts when you could tell they went home.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And they didn't have a producer.
Speaker: And it was like, man, this is like a major network hosting this podcast.
Speaker: And it sounds like tin cans and a wire.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was funny to see a bunch of the networks trying to, they had to learn from YouTube how to produce things because they were, they were struggling for a while.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're like watching 14 year olds to see how they see how they put their shows together.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They never had to DIY it, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anyway.
Speaker: Thanks for agreeing to be on the podcast.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: I don't think I've been this nervous for any of our guests.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, you were the one that kind of like started this thing for us.
Speaker: I mean, we kind of like emulated your podcast.
Speaker: I think it's one of the better ones for art.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: Also, to be fair, I didn't realize how much we were emulating yours until we got into it because Alex was like, do you want to do some podcasting also?
Speaker: And I'm like, sure.
Speaker: And I wasn't really a...
Speaker: a pod head.
Speaker: And so I realized we were using a very similar model to yours.
Speaker: And then he's like, Oh, we're going to have Brian Alfred on.
Speaker: I was like, Oh, right.
Speaker: That's the, that's the guy that we stole the podcast format from.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm pretty sure I didn't invent saying, hi, here's this artist.
Speaker: Let's talk.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I know.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: But I mean, your conversations are so organic.
Speaker: And I mean, I love that sometimes you don't even talk about the artwork itself.
Speaker: It's just about like, how's your life going?
Speaker: And what's your favorite music?
Speaker: Or what does your art look like if it was music?
Speaker: Which is one of my favorite things where you play quite often.
Speaker: Yeah, you know, I think when you, when there's no, there's no, nothing at stake really.
Speaker: So, you know, when I started doing it, there was no, first of all, there weren't a ton of podcasts.
Speaker: I mean, there were a lot, but it wasn't like today.
Speaker: I just wanted to talk to people about or talk to artists about stuff that they normally don't get to talk about.
Speaker: So, because I think artists are interesting and they're always asked the same few questions.
Speaker: So I figured, well, here's a chance to, you know, just BS basically.
Speaker: And, yeah, there's nothing at stake.
Speaker: So, you know, just laid back conversations.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And if you wanted to... Hopefully that's why people like it, you know?
Speaker: If you wanted kind of like the canned responses, they're all over the place, right?
Speaker: That's like what artists are used to giving.
Speaker: And so it also doesn't really make sense to just kind of regurgitate that content.
Speaker: I mean, it does reach a new audience sometimes, but I think it is, you know, it is nice to just like...
Speaker: hear like an expanded version of an artist's existence, I guess.
Speaker: And I know you mentioned, I read somewhere that like the podcast kind of started because you really enjoyed having these studio visit conversations and it made sense to kind of record them.
Speaker: And I feel like that's a lot of,
Speaker: the kind of stuff that comes up during studio visits once you get past the, you know, like the formal, what you're supposed to talk about at a studio visit.
Speaker: Then you get to talk about real stuff, right?
Speaker: Which is cool.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, artists, like, I don't go to my friend's studios as like a studio visit.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I'm just going, we're just going to hang out.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: You know, it was more of that than... And plus, I'm not asking... I mean, now it's gotten to the point to where I'm so interested in people's lives and where they got to where they got to.
Speaker: And I think part of that is from hearing so many people talk about that in the podcast that now I search for it.
Speaker: There's certain things I look for.
Speaker: But at the beginning, I wasn't asking questions.
Speaker: I was just sort of talking to them.
Speaker: And then, you know, if you're going to sit there and talk to someone for a while...
Speaker: you're going to get to, you know, well, I'm interested in where this person's from and like, you know, how school was or how they ended up where they got to.
Speaker: But it's not really, I never thought of it as like an interview.
Speaker: It's more of just like conversation.
Speaker: But it even goes so far as
Speaker: Because you've done some curation and some of the artists that you've curated into your shows come directly from your podcast.
Speaker: I'm sure that helps you kind of like find new people to kind of match together and basically a color of a palette basically to paint with for your curation process.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because a show is so different in a way because like with the podcast, I don't talk to the same person twice.
Speaker: So it's always someone new.
Speaker: So obviously it's open to like if I find someone interesting, I might not like the work.
Speaker: necessarily, or it might not be my cup of tea, but if I'm interested in them as a person, I'll talk to them.
Speaker: So whereas when you're curating a show, it's kind of usually building it around something, at least in my instances, it's been that.
Speaker: So, but yeah, it definitely, I feel, I wonder about that.
Speaker: I feel pretty confident that if I'm going to curate a group show and there's going to be 25 people in it,
Speaker: I could probably get most of the people I ask to do it just based on them knowing who I am in the gallery that I'm doing it with.
Speaker: And I think it would probably be a similar percentage after doing the podcast with people.
Speaker: Maybe a little greater because they know me better or something.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I think it's pretty similar.
Speaker: So, I mean, the curating stuff I've been into...
Speaker: And I haven't had a ton of opportunities to do it.
Speaker: I mean, I've had some, but I could do it as a profession.
Speaker: It would be cool to just curate shows.
Speaker: Not that I couldn't give up making art, but if I couldn't make art, I could do it.
Speaker: And it'd be fun to do.
Speaker: But maybe, yeah, I mean, talking to hundreds of people in the way that I have over the past however many years has definitely changed everything and nothing at the same time, but everything.
Speaker: It's a whole different world.
Speaker: It's weird.
Speaker: I never started the project thinking any of that stuff.
Speaker: So it's been a cool byproduct.
Speaker: What's the biggest part of the everything as far as the change?
Speaker: Just...
Speaker: Well, the day, the way that I structure my week and my days and the way I think about making work and my relationship to art, the way that, um,
Speaker: the way I think about the grander scheme of things, like it's much less centered around me and more sort of universal.
Speaker: You know, it's maybe less selfish in a way.
Speaker: And it's filled my brain with like so much stuff.
Speaker: And I don't remember a lot of it.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like I keep doing that thing of like, am I getting older and just losing some memory or is it just like filled?
Speaker: Because, you know, there'll be people reach out
Speaker: and say like, oh, I love that in that episode where you talked about this.
Speaker: And I was like, is that right?
Speaker: I assume you probably don't listen to them afterwards after you've put them out, right?
Speaker: After you've edited and put them out.
Speaker: No, I listen to... No, not at all.
Speaker: And actually when I edit it, I have editing ear.
Speaker: So I'll listen to it, but I'm not listening to it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I'm just listening to mess ups and like anything that's like out of sync or something.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So there's this documented thing that other people listen to kind of intently or casually that really is kind of a casual conversation.
Speaker: And it's like the same as being like, oh, remember that one thing you said four months ago at the bar when we were talking about this thing?
Speaker: You're like, no, but sure.
Speaker: I'm sure I did say that, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's interesting.
Speaker: It's weird.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's a niche audience.
Speaker: Like, it's not, you know, it does well in a certain audience, but it's not like tons and tons of people are listening to it.
Speaker: I mean, there's a lot of art people listen to it, I guess.
Speaker: So I don't really bump into those people often, you know.
Speaker: But when I do, it's weird.
Speaker: I was watching my... I'm involved in the youth soccer club here.
Speaker: And I was watching a practice of some of the kids and talking to the coach.
Speaker: And a guy came over, a super nice guy.
Speaker: He's like, hey, do you do a podcast?
Speaker: And so he was talking to me about the podcast.
Speaker: He said, oh, I listen to it all the time.
Speaker: I'm an artist.
Speaker: My studio is like a couple blocks over there.
Speaker: And it was just so weird to me that, like, I don't know how he recognized, maybe just because my picture's online here and there, but not much.
Speaker: But it's this weird feeling when people, like, I went to play a pickup game at soccer, and I was captaining my team, and we were picking the players, and we were talking about positions, and one guy's like, your voice sounds really familiar.
Speaker: Anyways, he knew the podcast, which was funny.
Speaker: I mean, I live in Williamsburg, so...
Speaker: I mean, you know, there's some overlap with your, with your niche market already.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I played on the pickup team against you for probably a couple of years before I realized who you were.
Speaker: Yeah, it's funny how like those worlds, you know, in New York, you can do different things.
Speaker: I know some people are like avid rock climbers and they're always fascinated when like people from their day to day life or like whatever their job is or whatever lines up with that.
Speaker: And it's like, oh yeah, you're the guy in the office, you know, it's kind of funny.
Speaker: Joe, Brian is about as good a soccer player as a painter and he's a really good painter.
Speaker: So every time I play, I get... I can't even play anymore.
Speaker: I can't even play anymore.
Speaker: I'm just too old.
Speaker: Like, I'm getting too sore and stiff.
Speaker: Yeah, I could attest to that.
Speaker: Unless it's, like, the old dude's lead.
Speaker: I can do, like, you know, the 50 over.
Speaker: But, like, the young guys are too strong and fast, and I just end up getting hurt.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I believe that.
Speaker: Yeah, but you still have the skills.
Speaker: It is fun to play.
Speaker: I was just saying that I have a favorite of your episodes.
Speaker: It's the Morgan Blair episode.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, really?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was just... It involved some YouTube talk and some... Yeah, that was fun.
Speaker: I was just... I don't think I've heard... Are you at like 300 episodes or close to it?
Speaker: 320 something?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: She was just like... You'd bring up like a painter, an example, and she'd be like, I don't know who that is.
Speaker: And she'd be just like, I don't know.
Speaker: I don't care.
Speaker: I just make work.
Speaker: And it was just so refreshing to hear.
Speaker: And you guys just had a really pure...
Speaker: down to earth conversation.
Speaker: It was fantastic.
Speaker: Yeah, that was fun.
Speaker: She's really interesting.
Speaker: She's got some very specific, like, I loved her taste too, like what she listens to in music and, you know, the way she thinks about making her work is really cool.
Speaker: Yeah, I was telling Alex before when I was prepping for this episode a little bit, I always have a harder time with painters because it's just, it's like my least knowledgeable medium.
Speaker: And so Morgan Blair is actually a painter I know.
Speaker: So I feel like I'm starting off on a good here because that's a reference I know.
Speaker: I also would like to listen to that episode because I love her paintings.
Speaker: I think they're great.
Speaker: And I feel like her conversation was probably super interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I feel like, hopefully, I don't know how it is.
Speaker: I mean, obviously being a painter and, you know, for decades, like that's sort of like my home base of what I know the most about.
Speaker: But, you know, I feel like as a teacher too, I need to be able to speak to ceramicists and sculptors and photographers and new media artists.
Speaker: And I try to learn as much as I can about that stuff.
Speaker: But hopefully in the podcast, you don't even have to
Speaker: You don't need those entry points.
Speaker: I mean, sometimes we get into the weeds a little bit about, you know, talking about painters or whatever it is, specifics of like art history, but hopefully it's still somewhat interesting.
Speaker: Like I'll listen to musicians talk about, you know, stuff that you're doing and some of the stuff I don't know about or whatever, but I'd love hearing them geek out about it, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: No, yeah.
Speaker: I'm always just trying to come up with a few like thoughtful prompts that can let the person that is on kind of like extrapolate
Speaker: you know, what it is for them and what they're interested in.
Speaker: I just always want those to be like relevant and like thoughtful is all.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I will say this, that I think that doing like talking to people at this stage in my life, I think makes it probably much more successful and interesting than if I tried to do a podcast when I was like 25.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I just wouldn't,
Speaker: I think talking about maybe it's a balance.
Speaker: Maybe it's too much.
Speaker: Like, you know, like the older people get, the more they talk.
Speaker: And sometimes you're like, okay, we get it.
Speaker: But, but then when you're younger, you just, your experiences are more limited.
Speaker: There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker: You can have a certain energy that works, but.
Speaker: Like I'll never forget.
Speaker: I was, I like to talk, I like to do talks and like talk about my work because it's become much less centered about my work and a bigger thing that I think hopefully inspires like students.
Speaker: But I was asked to speak at the Young Collectors.
Speaker: It's like, it was a lecture series that was geared towards more younger artists and it was at the Guggenheim.
Speaker: And I remember just being like,
Speaker: Like thinking back now, I was like, what did I talk about?
Speaker: I was younger and I probably didn't know what I was saying.
Speaker: Like I would have loved to have done that now because I feel like it would have been so much more interesting.
Speaker: But I don't know.
Speaker: You know, I think the older you get, the more experiences you have, the more you can relate to or there's more there to sort of go to, which it doesn't necessarily mean success, but it's just a deeper well to choose from.
Speaker: I love talking to older artists.
Speaker: like ones that are like in their 60s or 70s because they can just, I mean, I got to budget the time, but they can go.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Well, I've even noticed in your, since the beginning of your podcast, you kind of like bring more of yourself now.
Speaker: You kind of like, I don't know if, I don't know what the term would be, but it was like, I don't know if you were kind of like more guarded in the beginning and kind of allowed the artist to kind of talk, but now you're kind of like,
Speaker: more free to kind of interject and you're allowing yourself to kind of like be part of the conversation more fully.
Speaker: I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I honestly don't know.
Speaker: Maybe that happened.
Speaker: Whatever it is, it's organic.
Speaker: I'm not even thinking about it.
Speaker: It's definitely been the gradual thing.
Speaker: I feel like it's like a really good, you know, really good TV shows in their first season are like finding their footing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And not that you're in your first season, Brian, but like, you know, as you go, you start to like find like,
Speaker: routines and things that work really well and feel really good.
Speaker: And you kind of like lean into those more and it is this organic process.
Speaker: And then, uh, you know, the second season comes around and you're like really hitting the stride.
Speaker: Um, and, and it's like the, the process of making the thing, uh, helps you find that stuff.
Speaker: Um, which I think, which I think is always, is always like how it should be.
Speaker: Uh, I mean, I guess like, you know, planning, planning things and structuring things really intentionally can also mean success, but I think it often leads to less interesting results.
Speaker: Well, I think it too, it depends on the structure.
Speaker: Like since my conversations with people are supposed to be what's supposed to be in my efforts of being more laid back and casual.
Speaker: Because you rarely hear artists in that setting.
Speaker: You know, it's more of like a structured interview.
Speaker: So I feel like maybe as years go by and I do it more and more, I'm just more relaxed about it.
Speaker: I mean, you really get, it's like making work.
Speaker: Like when I first started showing work, this is for good or for bad, who knows?
Speaker: But when you first start showing your work, those first couple of shows are like, I mean, they mean the world.
Speaker: You're just like, oh my God, I hope this works out.
Speaker: And then, you know, after showing for 20 years, you're like, yep.
Speaker: You know, this is what I'm into.
Speaker: This is what I'm working on.
Speaker: I hope people are into it.
Speaker: But if not, whatever.
Speaker: You know, it's like, it is what it is.
Speaker: It's like, I'm just going to do my thing.
Speaker: And, you know, it's not quite so life or death.
Speaker: I mean, you still are passionate about what you're making and you still want people to engage in it.
Speaker: But you're not like pins and needles about it.
Speaker: You know, you're just like, well, here it is, you know.
Speaker: I mean, you were killing it, though, out of the gate.
Speaker: I do remember seeing you cutting images of your paintings out of Art in America when you were showing it.
Speaker: Was it Hanche and Venison?
Speaker: Is that the European gallery?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that was.
Speaker: I started showing with Hanche and Venison.
Speaker: I want to say like 2005, 2006 maybe.
Speaker: First in England and then Zurich and Berlin.
Speaker: But yeah, that was back in the earlier days.
Speaker: It was showing in like the late 90s.
Speaker: In like 99, I think was my first two-person show.
Speaker: So it's been a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah, those were amazing paintings.
Speaker: I mean, you're still painting amazingly, but it was just, you just kind of h it it out of the park from the get-go.
Speaker: I remember a lot of surveillance and airplanes and space shuttle.
Speaker: Yeah, it knocked me out when I first saw your paintings.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: It's funny because living through
Speaker: You know, 9-11 and then after that, there was a real air, you know, there was a real weight to imagery, I think.
Speaker: And imagery was just changing so much, like the speed of information, like cable news and the internet was starting to get pickup speed, literally.
Speaker: And, you know, it just, there was a real shift visually and in the world as far as like that stuff.
Speaker: And my work has always tapped into the world around us in any way, shape or form.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Yeah, it was pretty heavy back then, like a lot of that stuff in the air.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: But to go back to your episodes, one of the things I do notice that's been consistent when you speak is, and you can't see it, obviously, because it's an audio medium, but you get a little light in your step when you speak to musicians.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a funner.
Speaker: You know, it's like your hobby.
Speaker: It's like the thing.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: It's different.
Speaker: But you could have probably easily have easily been a professional musician because you had that band in college and your love of music.
Speaker: It could have been a direction, correct?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely.
Speaker: It was, it's a huge part of my life.
Speaker: So it's just how it fits in.
Speaker: You know, it was difficult because whenever we got out of school, the band that I was in, and I was in band since high school,
Speaker: You know, it was harder to tour and do all that stuff because, you know, day to day life.
Speaker: And so it became something that I tried to incorporate into my creative work in a different way.
Speaker: Like I could, you know, collaborate with musicians on like catalogs and animation soundtracks and stuff like that.
Speaker: So I still am in that world in a way, you know, of...
Speaker: collaboration and stuff but and i still play music a lot but i just don't release it or do any of that stuff oh really and i i think there's um you know the the idea of kind of like a career and and the thing you do professionally um i think gets a lot more muddled when it comes to being an artist or a
Speaker: Even fairly well-known musicians have side hustles and side jobs that they do.
Speaker: And so I don't know.
Speaker: One of the things that I appreciated when I started looking at your website is the way you offer the projects that you're working on as this kind of whole encompassing thing.
Speaker: which I think that visual artists sometimes don't want to do because they feel like it's going to make them look like they're less of an artist if they're also like, and I teach and I curate and I do a podcast or XYZ.
Speaker: And maybe this is kind of like connecting to what you were saying about as people get older, they kind of, they give less of a shit about what people think about what they're doing.
Speaker: And so you could make the argument that you are a professional musician.
Speaker: or a professional X, Y, or Z, because you kind of exist in the world and you do things around those things.
Speaker: And sure, like maybe a lot of your money comes from this one thing and you don't make money off of this other thing.
Speaker: But I think if you can extract the money-making part of it, it changes the definitions of kind of career trajectory and professional a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess, well, the decision,
Speaker: in a way happened when I realized that I love making art and I love making music and it's kind of the same thing.
Speaker: You're just being creative.
Speaker: So I feel like, Oh, I can do this one thing where I'm going to have to work with other people and then also be on tour a lot and not be home.
Speaker: And you have to live a certain lifestyle, or I can do this other thing where I can sit in a room by myself and
Speaker: and make my own schedule do to work the way I want to do it.
Speaker: So I think that had a big sort of impact on it.
Speaker: I mean, it wasn't, you know, I was going to school for art and not for music.
Speaker: So there was a structure around it.
Speaker: It was just, I think it fits better into what I do or the way that I want to live my life, I guess.
Speaker: I mean, I love music.
Speaker: I don't think I could go on.
Speaker: I mean, the tour thing was tough.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's hard.
Speaker: Being in a band, it was hard.
Speaker: It's great, but it's difficult.
Speaker: You're leaning on other people's schedules and creative influences and all that stuff.
Speaker: So it's tricky.
Speaker: But yeah, to your point, I spent basically, I would say...
Speaker: like 20 years, maybe a little less of just painting and animating.
Speaker: And that was my thing.
Speaker: So I think that, you know, the teaching and the podcast and, you
Speaker: Other things that I do just organically came out of the process of being a painter.
Speaker: And it wasn't really like a decision.
Speaker: So I didn't maybe worry about it too much, what people thought of doing too many things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know if I got it from you, but do you miss the one-to-one energy exchange?
Speaker: When you play music, it's like...
Speaker: it's immediate, it's an immediacy that you can't necessarily get from say someone seeing a painting, because obviously you have to paint it, then you have to put it up and then someone has to see it and then someone has to talk to you about it.
Speaker: It's like, there's so many steps of removal, whereas music, it's like you're playing in front of someone and it's immediate.
Speaker: And it's going into their ear holes.
Speaker: And it's like probably one of the more primal senses that we have.
Speaker: And it's like, it's like, it's like, it just, it just hits.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Do you miss that?
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: I mean, that's, it's been so long since I performed that, you know, it feels like a while ago, but I do miss it.
Speaker: I do miss that feeling of, of that direct one to one.
Speaker: But maybe in a way I've supplanted that through the podcast because there's a one-to-one conversation.
Speaker: So it's a direct way that other people can then download on their devices and listen to it with their own leisure.
Speaker: Speaking of which... I forgot.
Speaker: Well, it'll be obviously in our notes, but sound and vision is what Brian is referring to.
Speaker: If anyone...
Speaker: likes art even a little bit, it's definitely worth listening to.
Speaker: I think every art student should probably listen to some of the episodes.
Speaker: It's a great learning tool.
Speaker: Thanks, yeah, it's fun.
Speaker: I mean, it's weird now because some people...
Speaker: know the podcast and like, oh, you're an artist too or something, or maybe they don't listen to or haven't heard a lot of it, but they know, oh, I'm familiar with that podcast or I've heard of that podcast.
Speaker: Oh, you're an artist too.
Speaker: And it's, that's always a weird feeling because, you know, it's my origin as an artist.
Speaker: So, and that's where I come to the podcast from.
Speaker: So, but that's inevitable, I think.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, I that was one of my questions was about music, music versus visual arts.
Speaker: And if you had one that you connected with more than the other, even though, right, you've been, you know, you've been making paintings for for 20 years.
Speaker: Um, do you have like a, a stronger connection to music or visual arts?
Speaker: Um, I know personally, like I, and maybe this is what Alex was kind of talking about, which was this primal thing, but I actually like, I think I like music more than I like art.
Speaker: Uh, not to say that, like, I don't love, um, consuming and viewing artwork, um,
Speaker: But the experience is just so different.
Speaker: So I don't know.
Speaker: I was just wondering if you had thoughts on that or a preference of one or the other.
Speaker: I mean, it's such a hard decision.
Speaker: They're both amazing in different ways.
Speaker: I do think music is more primal in a way.
Speaker: There's something like it involves the body and it's...
Speaker: I mean, so does, I guess, looking at things.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like, if you say you're going to be stranded on an island.
Speaker: I was just going to do the stranded on an island question.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Take a record or a painting.
Speaker: I mean, I'm probably going to take a record.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, it's just... I mean, it doesn't mean I don't love art, but art's different in a way.
Speaker: It's more heady.
Speaker: It's more process.
Speaker: It's, you know, it's... For me, it's more of a...
Speaker: It's more of a physical activity and reflection.
Speaker: It's a longer look at something that means a different thing.
Speaker: And music is just like, you know, all right, here you go.
Speaker: You ready?
Speaker: I think I got it.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, luckily we don't have to choose.
Speaker: Art is the relationship.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: I think art is the relationship and music is the sex.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I like that analogy.
Speaker: I'm not familiar.
Speaker: Oh, sorry.
Speaker: I was going to say, I'm not familiar with your, with your band that you are bands that you were in.
Speaker: What, what kind of music did you guys play?
Speaker: It was like post rock is what people would call it.
Speaker: So instrumental sort of jazz, jazz, influence, rock influenced.
Speaker: And it was it started out.
Speaker: Our first record was guitar, cello and drums.
Speaker: And the second album, we added upright bass, trumpet and trombone to that.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: What was the band called?
Speaker: It was called 33.3.
Speaker: 33.3.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Yeah, Joseph and I had bands as well.
Speaker: I mean, I think music is such a... It's funny that there's so much of the brain devoted to visual information, but I think the sound part is so spread out that it hits more parts of the brain.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I had, I was a classically trained classical guitarist.
Speaker: And I thought, I always thought I was actually going to go school, school, college for that.
Speaker: But I, I changed avenues and went towards film and film and television and then eventually made it to painting and printmaking.
Speaker: But I do miss it as well.
Speaker: It's, it's such a one-to-one thing.
Speaker: And then of course, I,
Speaker: playing classical guitar when you, when you do form a band, of course you don't go in that vein.
Speaker: I went to complete opposite direction and I started a Spanish punk rock band.
Speaker: Um, so you had to kind of cleanse and dilute all that stuff.
Speaker: Cause I mean, classical music, music can be very stringent and, you know, you're supposed to play certain things in a certain way.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: there wasn't much tolerance for deviation, which is the way it is.
Speaker: Nothing against the form.
Speaker: But I do remember the thing that kind of broke my back was I had this high level guitar teacher and he was teaching me a very difficult passage on the guitar.
Speaker: And then he drooled on the fretboard and he handed me the guitar to play the thing without acknowledging the drool.
Speaker: And I was like, what the hell?
Speaker: Was that like an alpha move or he just didn't notice?
Speaker: I don't think he noticed.
Speaker: He was into the thing.
Speaker: But then he just handed it to me.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, man.
Speaker: Where do I go from here?
Speaker: Punk rock.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: That's not your average story of moving from something more stringent to something more loose.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have a question about some of your paintings, which which I'm not.
Speaker: It's like it's like a half form question, but it's about kind of like location choices.
Speaker: And I think I think maybe it's like a two parter because I'm curious.
Speaker: So one of the things I'm wondering is if you ever run into trademark stuff with with.
Speaker: logos are things that are trademarked that end up in your paintings.
Speaker: If that's ever been an issue, I just think I'm just curious.
Speaker: But then the other, the other question I had was kind of like, I feel like some of your, some of your paintings that I saw, like I'm thinking of kind of like the subway station paintings or like the new museum paintings or these, or these kinds of like quiet locations, how you think about like those spaces as, um,
Speaker: you know, those are like iconic to a certain person.
Speaker: They're not iconic in the way that we like think about iconic images in like the pop art sense.
Speaker: And so I'm just wondering kind of like your relationship to some of those places that are probably very iconic to you or to maybe people who collect your paintings or something like that.
Speaker: So yeah, I think that's the thought I had.
Speaker: So the first question, right, is about logos?
Speaker: Yeah, if you just like ever run into like- And whether that's ever been an issue?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's never been an issue.
Speaker: Knock on wood.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's not been an issue.
Speaker: And as far as like those iconic paintings or those, the work is usually seen within the context of a body of work or a show.
Speaker: And like, if you take that new museum painting, it was within the context of like a show about New York imagery.
Speaker: So it was, there were a lot of places in that show that were
Speaker: I think most of them were just pictures that I took and they had a personal meaning.
Speaker: So even the one that's of the Empire State Building, which seems like a more universal, iconic image, was taken.
Speaker: The photo of that was taken from my car where I was parking my car every day to go walk to work on a big framing thing for a big work on paper.
Speaker: So, and there's other places that are related to family or different experiences.
Speaker: So for me, it was kind of like my personal New York in a way, but with imagery that anyone could understand, relate to, or maybe be interested in.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Do all your paintings come from images that you actually photograph or are there some that you kind of like glean from, say, the internet?
Speaker: It's a mix.
Speaker: They're my photos.
Speaker: They're hybrids of photos, like ones that I'll merge or tweak.
Speaker: And then some are just stuff that I find.
Speaker: It all depends on what the body of work is and, you know, if I can get to certain things, you know.
Speaker: I'll give you an example.
Speaker: I'm working on a new body of work.
Speaker: And I took a trip to the Dominican and I took some photos there and it sort of inspired a certain idea.
Speaker: So some of the paintings are from those images.
Speaker: Some are from images that are back here that relate.
Speaker: And some are images that are just sort of like taking multiple images and combining them together.
Speaker: So, you know, it's a hybrid of all this stuff, really.
Speaker: I'm glad you mentioned the Dominican Republic because that's where I'm from or my parents are from.
Speaker: And I try to mention it at least once a podcast.
Speaker: He does.
Speaker: He usually fits it in some way.
Speaker: I'm glad I could check that box.
Speaker: But I'm very, I would love to see those paintings.
Speaker: But then that goes back to... You will.
Speaker: They'll be out at some point.
Speaker: For a particular show or you have, is it our show that... Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's so...
Speaker: I mean, I have a couple of loose shows that are on the horizon, but not exact dates.
Speaker: So what I do is I'll work on like, the genesis of a body of work just starts out of an idea.
Speaker: And sometimes it morphs into two bodies of work or, you know, when the show dates get, like I'll zoom in and certain things will sort of piece in.
Speaker: So it's not locked in yet, but right now it's just in the generative phase of new work.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And then again, to go back to the consistency of your body of work throughout the years, there's a dynamic static quality to them.
Speaker: Like something is about to happen or something happened.
Speaker: How do you choose those images?
Speaker: Like what is it that attracts you about those particular instances that draws you to...
Speaker: elevate them to become paintings?
Speaker: Well, it's, it's, well, a couple of things.
Speaker: One is I think I'm just gravitated towards a certain kind of image and it's hard to verbalize what that is.
Speaker: Like I definitely have my eye cause like I'll go to Japan and then I'll take photos of things and my family's always like, wow, we never would have thought to zoom in on that thing.
Speaker: So I think I just have a natural way of noticing certain things that stick out to me that will obviously more likely to become a painting.
Speaker: The other side of it is, again, it depends on what the idea, like, say the surveillance imagery, the show that you were talking about that you had at Zurich.
Speaker: I mean, you know, I was keyed into just that was the starting point.
Speaker: So it's okay.
Speaker: Well, how many different ways can I talk about how surveillance is in the environment or how we notice it or how it notices us?
Speaker: Or what are the subtleties of it?
Speaker: Like a checkpoint where you drive through or what are the not so subtle, like a corner that has like 18 closed circuit cameras on it or something.
Speaker: So it's about images and what gravitates, and then also the idea of the show or the collective.
Speaker: So rarely do I make a painting that's just that...
Speaker: Like it's a painting that's lives on its own.
Speaker: I think about them in relation to the other ones.
Speaker: So, you know, it's kind of like a, I'm not making singles and making records, you know, it's always like a concept record, like, but it's just the way I work.
Speaker: How many, how many paintings like percentage wise don't ever get seen like you don't finish or you finish them and you're like, this one doesn't fit.
Speaker: Are there some that never kind of make it to the gallery?
Speaker: Yeah, but not a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, the way I work is I map stuff out a lot.
Speaker: Like I wish I was John Coltrane, but I'm more like, you know, Chet Baker or something.
Speaker: So I'm pretty sure of what something's going to look like.
Speaker: You have a good idea what it's going to, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, but once in a while I do it and it just doesn't fit or it just didn't come out the way I want it to.
Speaker: So it's off to the recycling bin.
Speaker: But yeah, most of the time they work.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: And then those instances you have like the mistake that turns into like a magical surprise.
Speaker: Happy accidents.
Speaker: That happens, I think, more so in very subtle micro moves in a painting as opposed to just bumping into a painting.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Because I map out the paintings so much that those kind of happy accidents work in little things that I'm adding in or tweaking.
Speaker: Or if I go on a trip somewhere or I take a photo or something happens or I have a lightbulb moment, I think those are more of my happy accidents.
Speaker: Because I'm not really...
Speaker: I mean, I kind of wish I did and I used to.
Speaker: And when I used to, I kind of wish I did the work the way I do now, but I kind of wish I had more improvisation in there.
Speaker: You know, the grass is always greener.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: Well, it sounds like also the improvisation happens in, in, in the prep and the process more and kind of like the production of the paintings.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: When you're out exploring or something like that.
Speaker: Yeah, and there's micro improvisations in the painting, but no one notices that.
Speaker: It's not like, you know, Frankenthaler where I'm pouring water in and like the bleed becomes, you know, something that I never could have predicted.
Speaker: It's not like that.
Speaker: It's kind of like, you know, a solo that's pretty mapped out, but you just tweak one note in it or something, you know, or you put the bell on the trumpet and it has a different feel, stuff like that.
Speaker: I want to also bring up the absence of the figure in your paintings.
Speaker: They're in there.
Speaker: They do occur.
Speaker: But even like there's some like stadium images and even the fans are like square pixels or something or alluded to.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A lot more...
Speaker: painstaking detail into architecture.
Speaker: And to go back to music, I heard somewhere that music was equated to memory, and then architecture is psychology.
Speaker: And there is a psychological bend, I think, to a lot of your imagery, especially
Speaker: when you have some some of the more night night shots where it's less light.
Speaker: Yeah, you're it's almost like a hitchhockey and think something is about to happen.
Speaker: You're just waiting around the corner or to Jericho or something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker: Yeah, I think, I mean, those images are, I've done those images where there's no figure and it's about, those are usually meant to be, you're the figure looking at the environment.
Speaker: So you have that relationship.
Speaker: There's a lot of silhouetted figures in certain imagery because I'm not necessarily interested in
Speaker: painting those people's personalities or faces.
Speaker: It's more just about this is a place where people are.
Speaker: And then, you know, I spent three years painting 333 portraits of people that was very much about every single person that I painted.
Speaker: So they got a portrait because it was about who they were, you know, and I so I think I I do all of it.
Speaker: It just depends on what what I'm interested in, what it calls for.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: So
Speaker: I'm less interested, like if I'm going to paint the figure or, you know, allude to the figure in an environment, I'm not so interested about who those people are.
Speaker: So that's why I never really paint like people's portraits within the landscape so much.
Speaker: So I think I just separated out, you know.
Speaker: But so portraiture is part of your work at certain junctures?
Speaker: like singular portraiture where you actually do some kind of like seated portrait or just from like a photograph or is it, it seems like you're, you're a lot more interested in space and architecture and atmosphere and ambience.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in that and those paintings.
Speaker: I mean, like I said, I spent three years painting just portraits of people that were mostly off the internet, just like famous people or people who were in my brain.
Speaker: But I've had like a show in Honcho Venison and Rock Center that I have was a combination of landscapes and
Speaker: And then people who are seen by certain people as positive and other people as negative.
Speaker: So they were big portraits and some were within like a landscape or within like a context.
Speaker: It wasn't just a portrait.
Speaker: So, I mean, I think I've done, I tend to gravitate more towards
Speaker: the environment talking about who we are as a people because it's more universal than just specific people.
Speaker: But I'm interested in that too.
Speaker: It's just, I don't, maybe the paintings that I've done that are landscaped without the figure are more out there or a little more prevalent as opposed to the portraits that I've done.
Speaker: And when does a project become an animation?
Speaker: Like where is that prompt?
Speaker: It depends.
Speaker: I mean, usually the animations are centered around a body of work.
Speaker: And like, because I've gotten to the point in my...
Speaker: art life to where I've been lucky enough to show and I just keep having shows.
Speaker: So I, I framework around shows usually or a project.
Speaker: So, um, the animations usually, uh, if so I did this show,
Speaker: called Techno Garden in Japan that was based on an area that I was living when I taught for in the summer there.
Speaker: And it was in an area called Chiba, which there was a business part.
Speaker: It was kind of like, it was called Techno Garden.
Speaker: It was like the Javits Center, like that style of like, you know,
Speaker: Convention centers in a place where a lot of business happened and I just found it really interesting the landscape of it did the title techno garden and in commuting around and researching those images.
Speaker: I started to think about an animation that would sort of move the viewer through these images so.
Speaker: Like that's an example of how I came to that specific animation.
Speaker: There's other ones that I've done for like music videos for people.
Speaker: Someone's like, let's collaborate.
Speaker: And then I make an animation based on that.
Speaker: Or if I have a show coming up in New York and I want the images to not just live in a 2D realm and I want some movement and sound, then I'll work on an animation with it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Depends.
Speaker: It's loose, you know?
Speaker: They just happen.
Speaker: And I guess, oh, you were going to say something there?
Speaker: I was going to change course a little bit because I was curious.
Speaker: You seem like a pretty busy person and you mentioned iCal to keep yourself organized.
Speaker: Do you also work with people and work with assistants sometimes on projects and things like that?
Speaker: Never in my studio.
Speaker: I'm the only person ever in my studio.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Cause I can't have people making or touching my paintings.
Speaker: It's like a personal, like I just want to do it.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But I do have people help make the stretchers, you know, which is in a way, you know, I get, I order stretchers nowadays because my hands are like falling apart.
Speaker: So, you know, that's an assistant in a way.
Speaker: And then when I collaborate, I'll collaborate with my friend, Ben, who's an amazing motion graphics guy.
Speaker: We collaborate on animation sometimes and,
Speaker: Or like I did an app and I worked with some people from Unity and collaborated with them.
Speaker: So they're not assistants, but there's collaboration.
Speaker: But I can't just have someone in my studio that I'm like, okay, do this, now do this.
Speaker: I can't do it.
Speaker: I don't want that responsibility.
Speaker: And my life is too busy.
Speaker: Like I'm doing too many things.
Speaker: They would be like, what are you doing, man?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It'd be more work than it was worth or something like that.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: And I think most artists just go to their studio every day.
Speaker: And I do go to the studio, but I also teach in Pennsylvania.
Speaker: I have a studio there and I'm like, you know, I've got a family and I'm like,
Speaker: I coach soccer, I'm working with a soccer club and I'm doing all this stuff and it would be so hard to just have someone.
Speaker: I just, I'm not interested in it.
Speaker: Plus I like having control and there are certain things like animation, animation,
Speaker: Or, you know, there's certain aspects of my creative life where I like to collaborate and I like to lose control or give control to someone else.
Speaker: And we work back and forth.
Speaker: Like I just did a book and the book was a collaborative effort with the publisher, with the editors, with the forward and all that.
Speaker: So it's, that's something that, thank God I didn't have, it wasn't just me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm looking at it on your table back there and it's a thick book and I can't imagine doing that solo.
Speaker: But also that's like the nature of publications, right?
Speaker: Or the nature of records.
Speaker: They're just like, they kind of have to be collaborative or else somebody would lose their mind trying to do the whole thing themselves, especially if they have other responsibilities.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think I'm losing my mind a little as far as like making my paintings because I do all that stuff myself.
Speaker: But I love it.
Speaker: Like I don't want anyone touching it.
Speaker: I have one time and he's now a friend.
Speaker: I had a guy who graduated from Columbia from art and he wanted to, you know, come be an assistant or to intern at the studio.
Speaker: And he came in for a couple of weeks and
Speaker: I don't know, he was like, jessoing, and I was like, it's got to be like, he wasn't doing it the way I do it, which was fine in theory, but I was just like, no, you can't, don't.
Speaker: And then it was just like a hassle.
Speaker: It was just like, he was just hanging out there for a couple of weeks.
Speaker: So that ended.
Speaker: But I mean, I can't do it.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Anybody listening, Brian is not looking for assistance or assistance.
Speaker: I feel bad because I get emails sometimes, you know, from students or people who graduate.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, it's, I would love to, like, I think mentorship is really important.
Speaker: And I, you know, just in my life, the way I do it is through teaching.
Speaker: and through you know working with kids with soccer like getting them scholarship trying to get them college scholars things like that like that's my service you know and when it comes to me making paintings it's just me in the paintings leave me alone that's fair i don't think you have to feel guilty
Speaker: Not that you do, but it kind of sounded like you did.
Speaker: My other question was about social media.
Speaker: What's your relationship with social media these days?
Speaker: Has it changed as social media has changed?
Speaker: Has it changed as your kind of career trajectory has changed?
Speaker: I'm just kind of curious about that.
Speaker: Um, I guess it's changed a little in the sense that I use it a lot for booking guests on the podcast of like reaching out to people.
Speaker: It's become a nice way to sort of communicate directly and get to know people more directly through, you know, Instagram.
Speaker: I mean, people love responding to Instagram messages, right?
Speaker: Instead of like an email or something.
Speaker: And you can like see if they've read it.
Speaker: I mean, I've noticed that too.
Speaker: I think it's the generational.
Speaker: I think younger people just do that.
Speaker: You know, it's not even that they think about it that much.
Speaker: So that has been good.
Speaker: And, you know, to be totally honest, social media has always for me just been like a dump and go sort of thing.
Speaker: Like I don't hang out much on there.
Speaker: I just, I mean, I use it more as like promotional, you know, less like life stuff because I don't really want
Speaker: I mean, I do the podcast, which gets personal, I guess.
Speaker: I don't really want me, like, my life to be too much on social media broadcast.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's a different platform, too.
Speaker: So, like, it's like this kind of, like, quickly consumed thing.
Speaker: So, like, to have kind of, like, personal...
Speaker: life details or stuff like that.
Speaker: It just like, it sits on there in a different way than it does if somebody's, you know, listening to a longer conversation.
Speaker: And I think you're, you're the person who is consuming it as a different type of consumer.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So they like, we'll take in the information in a different way, but, um,
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker: But yeah, I feel like I know a lot of our artists who are in the camp of wanting to include kind of like life stuff mixed in with their practice, but then there's others that it's really kind of like, let me put this up here and then I'm not going to open it or look at anything else.
Speaker: Uh, cause I'm not, I'm not necessarily like a user of, of Instagram or something.
Speaker: They think of themselves as more of kind of like, uh, just a content creator or something like that, but.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it's basically, I mean, social media is about sharing stuff, right?
Speaker: It's about like showing people stuff, whatever it is, in whatever capacity.
Speaker: And some people are more sharing that or want to share stuff or put it out there more than others, you know?
Speaker: And I think that other people need that
Speaker: like a constant sort of reaction or, you know, they want to feel that engagement.
Speaker: There's different levels of it.
Speaker: And I understand it on all levels.
Speaker: Some people, you know, want nothing to do with it.
Speaker: You know, I get it.
Speaker: This is different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: But I think younger people are much less, you know, worried about, they just, it's just, they do it.
Speaker: I mean, when you have, like, I have a teenager, you know, they're not, well, they're not thinking about like pre-Instagram or something.
Speaker: And they don't really care about it as much.
Speaker: We're always reflecting on it.
Speaker: Like the generations of people who've lived through it are always like, wow, it's so different.
Speaker: And they're just like, whatever.
Speaker: It's just, you know, I'm just putting pictures up.
Speaker: No big deal.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which is, which is true for them.
Speaker: And it's not as true for, for older folks.
Speaker: You know, it's, it's a totally different, totally different game.
Speaker: I left Facebook early on.
Speaker: We got divorced and it was because older people kept putting real heavy stuff on there constantly.
Speaker: And I couldn't take it.
Speaker: It was either complaining about politics or it was like very personal life events that God bless the people.
Speaker: But it's like, I don't,
Speaker: It's heavy.
Speaker: I mean, that's why I don't, my phone isn't, my phone number's not online so people can call me every time something goes wrong in their life and I have to hear, I mean, I feel for people, but like when you read that constant stream, it's rough.
Speaker: So I just- Yeah, humans aren't designed to have capacity for that many, those many deep, heavy relationships, right?
Speaker: I think we're only designed to have a few.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: It's like going into a bar and listening to everyone's conversation at the same time.
Speaker: Oh man, it was too much.
Speaker: I had to leave.
Speaker: I mean, Instagram's easier because you could just, they're pictures.
Speaker: I mean, if you're a visual person, you kind of like that because you can just kind of like look through visual things, but.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I still love Instagram for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's just, it's pretty minimal as far as what it is, you know, and like the TikToks and Snapchats and all that stuff, I'm like contractually not allowed to engage in those because I'm too old, but I get it.
Speaker: I understand why people like it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know who I would be talking to if I was on those things anyways, because I don't think anyone would be listening.
Speaker: Omegle is kind of wild.
Speaker: I mean, I don't do it and I've never done it, but I know about it.
Speaker: And that seems like another level.
Speaker: Is that popular again?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's been on for a long time.
Speaker: And I remember when it came out, I feel like it was maybe 10 years ago or something.
Speaker: Oh, I think it's resurfaced.
Speaker: Like I think young people use it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And they like connect with strangers and hang out on the internet with people they've never met.
Speaker: I don't know if it's hanging out.
Speaker: You just like flip through and like, you know, tell people they're ugly or they're pretty stupid.
Speaker: You know, I think it's really healthy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's weird.
Speaker: I like to just like invite someone into your room on your phone for a couple of seconds.
Speaker: It was total strangers.
Speaker: Like if you thought like posting comments was an anonymous way to like, you know,
Speaker: crap post on people.
Speaker: I mean, just imagine like popping up and there's no, you know, there's no repercussions.
Speaker: You just say, there you are.
Speaker: You know, it's weird.
Speaker: What's the one that you heard recently where you just get a prompt to share whatever image right here and now?
Speaker: It's like, it's meant to be
Speaker: kind of like boring and about like your happenstance as opposed to like sharing what these beautiful pictures on, on Instagram.
Speaker: You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker: Is this the one where you like, uh, you randomly get a message to make a picture at a certain time and then it like swaps your picture with like five other people's.
Speaker: I can't remember what it's called.
Speaker: It's, it's interesting.
Speaker: It's kind of a cool, cool app.
Speaker: That is cool.
Speaker: It's like the whole like put this song to the latest photo no matter what it is sort of idea.
Speaker: Oh, right.
Speaker: Like a randomization of something.
Speaker: Like on NPR, they used to do the thing where they go around and say, what are you listening to now?
Speaker: And they'd ask somebody with headphones to share the music.
Speaker: Anyway, coming up on the hour, we would be remiss to not mention NFTs because that's kind of the genesis of what Joe and I kind of came into this whole... I forgot about that.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: We're starting to forget about that too.
Speaker: Did those come back?
Speaker: Is that like a needle?
Speaker: Are those back now?
Speaker: No, they're still not cool for a little while.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like they'll have another upward trend at some point.
Speaker: But yeah, it's been quiet lately.
Speaker: I feel like in the mainstream sphere, NFT people are still excited because they live in a different world than everybody else.
Speaker: But in terms of the mainstream, I feel like it's been out of the news for a long time now, which has actually been kind of nice, I think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, Alex, what's your NFT prompt?
Speaker: What's your question?
Speaker: Oh, no, I think having heard Brian talk about it, it seemed like you were coming around to it, but then now it's like out of the ether.
Speaker: But it's funny because you're so open to exploring different mediums like animation, music, books, stuff.
Speaker: It seemed like you have some, and I'm not saying that's good or bad, but the hesitancy towards NFTs, and neither Joe or I are complete evangelists.
Speaker: We just think it's an interesting medium, especially for digital art to kind of like share.
Speaker: But I just wanted to hear your take now as far as what you thought about it.
Speaker: Well, here's the question I have.
Speaker: I don't know that I ever really have an informed opinion.
Speaker: It's kind of like saying, like, how do you feel about digital art?
Speaker: Or how do you feel about anything?
Speaker: Like the all-encompassing.
Speaker: There's the hype train of NFTs that that's another thing to talk about, I guess.
Speaker: Like the reaction to it or whatever.
Speaker: But I've been like, I think what I've been, I don't know what I've said about it.
Speaker: I don't remember.
Speaker: But with NFTs, I've been making NFTs for a long time, non-digital NFTs.
Speaker: so obviously i agree with the idea of like i like the idea of like this thing that authenticates something you know what i mean because when i first started making video art which was animations
Speaker: And in the early 2000s, there was the art world and art didn't know how to do it yet.
Speaker: It didn't know what to do with this stuff.
Speaker: So, you know, and I made DVDs that were for sale and then there was like artwork that came with it and there was a file and, you know, it was like navigating how you collect or how someone owns something that is disseminated through digital media, like endlessly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, I mean, NFTs, like the idea works in a way.
Speaker: I mean, an NFT, you could think of a painting as an NFT for the image that goes out into the world on websites and on Instagram and everything else.
Speaker: Like the painting is the real one or not real one.
Speaker: It's the one.
Speaker: So that's kind of like what an NFT is, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like anybody can go out and right click and save one of your images on the internet and have your painting as in digital form.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But yeah, I like that analogy of thinking of the painting itself as being the authenticator.
Speaker: So if you own it, you're the one who owns all these images that people can have for free, but they don't own it.
Speaker: They can't sell it, which is yeah, which is exactly what at least one mechanism for NFTs is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Isn't that what they are though?
Speaker: Non-fungible tokens?
Speaker: They're the idea that it's an authentication of something.
Speaker: Yeah, it's basically like a digital certificate of authenticity that everyone can see.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And it gives you the rights.
Speaker: It gives you the rights to send it to someone or sell it or anything else.
Speaker: Most of them, the actual NFT doesn't even have the digital file in it.
Speaker: The digital file is hosted elsewhere and the NFT points to it.
Speaker: So it's saying like, you own this thing over here.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Kind of like if someone donates a painting to a museum.
Speaker: It's like you own that Picasso that's in the Louvre.
Speaker: And then you look at the little plaque and it says, courtesy of blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Same thing.
Speaker: I don't think the idea is controversial at all.
Speaker: I think what's controversial about it, when it becomes an issue where people want to talk about is when they start selling for gazillions of dollars.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's the only reason it's picked up any airplay in the masses.
Speaker: Once someone hears, oh, this digital thing sold for $3 million, they're like, what?
Speaker: And then it becomes a news story.
Speaker: But digital work has been selling for a lot of money on occasion anyway.
Speaker: So it's just the hype train of it.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: And then what happens, and this is when it gets annoying, and not just NFTs or anything, is
Speaker: Once the hype train starts or someone sells something for $6 million, everyone starts doing it.
Speaker: And it's like once Nirvana happened and they, Smells Like Teen Spirit was on MTV, everyone was playing grunge music.
Speaker: And there's a lot of bad versions of it, you know, because it's not, it wasn't like the true, and there's good, but I think that's where the pushback happens, I think.
Speaker: I mean, and you even see, I mean, for I would say like a majority of people when they hear that a painting sold for $5 million, they think it's ridiculous, right?
Speaker: It's just, but that one's been around for so long that they're like, all right, I guess that's just how this weird world works that we live in.
Speaker: But the digital one, I think, was one step too far for most people because they understand.
Speaker: It's just a vehicle they don't understand.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So when it's digital, it becomes an easier thing to the dismissiveness of paintings is, you know.
Speaker: tried and true.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Which is also a vehicle that most people don't understand, right?
Speaker: Like they understand what like paint on a canvas is, but they don't understand the entire ecosystem that supports this very specific type of paint on a canvas and like the infrastructures and distribution systems and everything else.
Speaker: Yeah, that misunderstanding is like painting is to abstraction as NFT is to digital art.
Speaker: You know, it's like the medium, like people don't understand Pollock and that that can, like my kid could do that.
Speaker: That doesn't, I don't get it.
Speaker: Why would that sell for $20 million?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Whereas if it's a Da Vinci, they may have less of an issue with it because they just can't do it.
Speaker: They know that they can't do it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So in digital work, they're like, this can't be worth money.
Speaker: It's just made on a computer.
Speaker: Whereas if someone actually like, you know, made it from their hand or just some like,
Speaker: more tactile way that they can relate to the difficulty of it.
Speaker: That issue has been, you know, with us forever.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: The validity of something based on its medium or how it's made or what it is, you know,
Speaker: Like gold is worth a lot of money.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: Like, you know, it could be plastic.
Speaker: It could be anything.
Speaker: You know, it's just, it's subjective.
Speaker: You can extend it to labor too.
Speaker: You know, like people who actually make stuff for their jobs usually make much less money than people who don't make anything at all, except like ideas and conversations and whatever and connections.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like the lowest paying jobs are usually the, the actual stuff that gets made.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I have to step in and defend gold here for a second because it does have actual stardust in it that no other material on earth has.
Speaker: We're all made of stardust.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: It's so shiny.
Speaker: Particular stardust.
Speaker: No, I completely agree with you as far as... Because Joe and I, we came into the NFT space because there was so much quote-unquote crap.
Speaker: And we came in with the idea that
Speaker: this is an interesting medium that can be utilized to transfer digital information.
Speaker: In particular, we're very attracted to long form videos, for instance.
Speaker: Something you see in museums and galleries and you typically don't have access to outside of those spaces.
Speaker: And one of the reasons is because of the economic model of not sharing that thing, because it's only worth money if the museum or gallery have access to it.
Speaker: How nice would it be to have access to, say, experimental videos of all sorts?
Speaker: So yeah, it's been an interesting ride, to say the least.
Speaker: Yeah, and I feel like we've learned, I mean, we've also learned a lot because it's not like, you know, the people who have been working with blockchain art have been at it for almost 10 years now.
Speaker: And so I didn't really understand kind of like creative coding or like working with smart contracts to make interesting artworks that like function, you know, differently than just pointing to a digital file.
Speaker: They like actually do, they do stuff when you like have a generative artwork or something like that.
Speaker: And so there's also like some really interesting things
Speaker: artists that I've learned about and potential for that kind of like blockchain art.
Speaker: That's been fun to fun to learn about.
Speaker: Um, as we've, I don't know, as we've kind of like developed the, the gallery a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I think that just like any new media, there's going to be some people who are amazing at it.
Speaker: And then there's going to be the sort of, you know, the bandwagoners who try to hop on there and, you know, and it's, you know, it over time, the stuff that's really engaging will stick around, you know,
Speaker: It's always like you got to go further, push it further and then come back to the center or something.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And it takes and it also takes some time for kind of like all of the apparati and things that could support thoughtful, challenging, good work to kind of exist in a way that can be sustainable for people who make that stuff, too.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Remember when DJs first became like artists and people were like, they're not playing anything.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: And then it was like this big thing and there would be a couple who were huge and like, they were like, this is crazy.
Speaker: I was just talking too.
Speaker: Now it's just, it's part of the way we listen to music.
Speaker: It's not an issue.
Speaker: Yeah, I was just talking to an artist who uses AI prompts to make work because that's kind of a big trend right now is using these artificial intelligence generators to create artwork.
Speaker: And then some, I mean, a lot of them mint them as NFTs.
Speaker: And I have mixed feelings about that in general.
Speaker: But I was like, yeah, it's kind of like when DJs first started and people were like, they're not doing anything but remixing.
Speaker: And he was like, yeah, it's going to be like the best artists are the ones who can make the best prompts for the AI to make the artwork, which I think will have some grain of truth to it as we continue moving forward, especially with like, have you seen some of the images coming out of this WALL-E AI generator, the like newest?
Speaker: They just like let people start beta testing it.
Speaker: No, I haven't.
Speaker: They're crazy.
Speaker: They're just like... You can give these wild prompts and it'll spit out this like...
Speaker: very interesting digital series of digital images to give you kind of like a variety of, of stuff that is showing what you just told it to, to give you.
Speaker: And they're like, you, you wouldn't know that AI did it.
Speaker: I think there's some telltale things that start happening with, with AI where like things blend weirdly and you can kind of like notice it.
Speaker: But in general, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like the ones that Carlos has been sending us have been kind of crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, they're all over the place and they're unexpected and they're fun.
Speaker: I could see AI being a big factor in future contemporary art.
Speaker: But as soon as everybody has access to these tools, we're going to be flooded with this garbage, right?
Speaker: And it's going to be hard.
Speaker: The stuff that was novel and interesting will be like, okay, great.
Speaker: What do we do now?
Speaker: And then something else will happen.
Speaker: I don't know what it's going to be, but...
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Everyone has a camera in their pocket, right?
Speaker: But that doesn't mean they're good photographers.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, we've taken probably enough of your time, unless Joe has any other questions.
Speaker: I hit all my prompts.
Speaker: I feel like that was good.
Speaker: I did have just a quick, do you have a favorite podcast, art podcast?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do I have a favorite art podcast?
Speaker: That you listen to?
Speaker: God, this is not... I don't listen to podcasts either.
Speaker: Let me look.
Speaker: Wait, what's my favorite?
Speaker: I listen to a lot of podcasts, but I don't know that... Do I listen to art podcasts?
Speaker: That's even better.
Speaker: That you don't listen to art podcasts.
Speaker: I mean, he's making one every week, right?
Speaker: So he's basically like, I don't know.
Speaker: It would be like doubling up on a thing that you already are engaging with so much.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker: Are there art podcasts?
Speaker: The only other one I know is Bad at Sports.
Speaker: That's the only one I've ever listened to.
Speaker: I mean, Bad at Sports, to be honest, I don't listen to it.
Speaker: I've heard it a few times.
Speaker: Like someone has sent me a specific artist or I've heard it a couple of times.
Speaker: It seemed when I listened to it in the past, it was good.
Speaker: It was very provincial.
Speaker: It felt very Chicago.
Speaker: It seems great.
Speaker: I just haven't really listened to it, to be honest.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I guess maybe the other question I would ask is, are you listening to any new music right now that you're really excited about?
Speaker: Because we haven't hit hit music too much.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, I am.
Speaker: I'm really in deep with a lot of new hip hop because my son bleeds into, you know, he's listened to all sorts of stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I didn't know that much about cloud rap.
Speaker: So I've been in that mode for a while now of listening to a lot of different stuff.
Speaker: And, you know, with Spotify, you can just kind of go crazy.
Speaker: So I've been listening to a lot of that.
Speaker: And like I did a podcast recently with my friend Evan, who...
Speaker: is he records as evacs and he also uh one half of rat-a-tat and he does a lot of production of stuff so i really love his record been listening to that a lot and um
Speaker: And yeah, my friend Rishi, who wrote the foreword to the book, he does Song Exploder podcast, which is a podcast I listen to all the time.
Speaker: He records as the 1AM radio and I listen to him a lot.
Speaker: And also Michael Lovett, who does the intro to the podcast.
Speaker: He's in Metronomy, so I listen to a lot of Metronomy.
Speaker: And he has his own project called NASCA Lines, which is really great.
Speaker: And yeah, I've been listening.
Speaker: I mean, I listen to a lot of stuff, you know, like I'm all over the place.
Speaker: But yeah, I feel like I've been heavy into the cloud rap stuff, just like new hip hop, you know.
Speaker: I just can't help it.
Speaker: I've never heard the term, so I just looked it up.
Speaker: Now I'm interested to listen.
Speaker: Yeah, like there's a guy, Cochise, from Florida who just listened to a lot of that.
Speaker: It's good.
Speaker: I try to stay busy and exercise.
Speaker: So when exercising, it's really good music for that.
Speaker: In the studio, I'll go down memory lane and listen to stuff that's, you know, that fits the vibe of what I'm working on.
Speaker: But for the, you know, and working on some of the imagery from Punta Cana, I was listening to a lot of like reggaeton and, you know, lots of that stuff that put me in that place mentally.
Speaker: And then, you know, it'll move, you know.
Speaker: Did you hear a lot of stuff from the DR, like some of the trap hip hop and stuff?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I have a good friend who, he used to live in New York.
Speaker: He's a chef, like a famous chef, and he lives on the West Coast, but he's Dominican.
Speaker: And he came to New York City when he was young.
Speaker: And he introduced me a long time ago, probably like 20 years ago or something too.
Speaker: I didn't really know bachata and reggaeton and all that stuff.
Speaker: And he introduced me to that.
Speaker: So now I kind of...
Speaker: will listen to, like, I feel like sometimes you have to just get in the room with a certain kind of music and then forever you'll just keep on top of it.
Speaker: Like, I got into Nigerian high life in college when I was a DJ and now, like, I'll still listen to Nigerian, like, contemporary Nigerian stuff.
Speaker: Just, you know, try to keep up with it.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: you know, that's why I think travel is so good because you, you, you bond, you get a relationship with a, with a culture and a music a lot of times and then it just stays with you.
Speaker: You keep your interest up.
Speaker: So I'm going to Portugal soon.
Speaker: I'm really excited because I've always loved, you know, Portuguese music.
Speaker: And so I'm excited to, to anchor that music with a place, you know, I mean, not Brazil, obviously, but, but in Portugal.
Speaker: That's a good point because as globalization kind of flattens everything out and starts making places and,
Speaker: places kind of look alike.
Speaker: I think music is still one of those standout things that kind of like is, can signify a difference in a good way as you travel.
Speaker: And it gets a lot of certain kinds of the music will get tinges of other stuff.
Speaker: So like you'll hear K-pop that has like, you know, a reggaeton vibe to it or like, you know, or like dub or something.
Speaker: And, you know, it's kind of cool when they bleed into each other in a way that humans do that too.
Speaker: You know, like they're moving and growing up in different countries, but they bring a little bit of where they're from.
Speaker: And I think that kind of...
Speaker: recipe is really cool for, for creativity.
Speaker: I mean, to hear like Bad Bunny and to have like reggaeton at the top, like,
Speaker: It's crazy for a Latino American to have like a Snoop Dogg guest rapping on a record to an album.
Speaker: Yeah, it's surreal, right?
Speaker: It's very strange.
Speaker: Well, imagine if you're Korean American and then this happened, you know?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It's just like, wait a minute.
Speaker: BTS is at the White House.
Speaker: You know, and like 10 years ago, it was like K-pop was like this underground, you know what I mean?
Speaker: It was more J-pop and it was just like, it was like riding second in Asian music in a way.
Speaker: And then now it's just like everywhere, you know?
Speaker: You're so good at sharing, like when you talk to artists and you have them
Speaker: you kind of like give them playlist almost like about a, what their kind of work reminds you of as far as music.
Speaker: And then prompts the music that you're kind of currently listening to.
Speaker: Do you, do you have like, I don't think I've seen anything like a Spotify list that you keep current or, cause I try to keep up with the music suggestions that you,
Speaker: you lay out in the show sometimes.
Speaker: I've actually made a couple playlists, a collaborative playlist with some of the artists and then some just based on the artists.
Speaker: So I could send you the link to it.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: But yeah, they're out there under my Spotify.com.
Speaker: But yeah, there's like, you know, Ryan McGinnis and I did a collaborative one with like all sorts like punk and all the stuff we talked about.
Speaker: And then Rachel Boussier, we did one which had a lot of French, you know, piano and like a mixture of stuff that we talked about.
Speaker: So yeah, those are fun to do.
Speaker: Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker: It's usually with an artist that we talk about music and we get real specific and we're like, oh, we got to share that.
Speaker: And then I'll just, after the podcast, I'll just start making a Spotify playlist.
Speaker: It's a really cool way.
Speaker: It's like the old, you know what it is?
Speaker: It's a feeling of like a mixtape when you were young.
Speaker: Like it's that vibe.
Speaker: So, you know, I'd probably do it more often if I had time, to be honest.
Speaker: There's only so many hours in the day.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Speaking of, thank you for giving us some of your time today.
Speaker: It's been awesome.
Speaker: No, no, it was fun.
Speaker: Thanks for having me on.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: It's been a long time coming and I appreciate you coming on and talking and shooting the shit.
Speaker: My pleasure.
Speaker: My pleasure.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: We'll see you.
Speaker: Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
Speaker: You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at lydianstaternyc on Instagram, and follow us at lydianstater on Twitter.
Speaker: Thanks to Brian Alford for taking the time to speak to us this week.
Speaker: If you'd like to learn more about his work, visit his website at brianalford.net.
Speaker: Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
Speaker: His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
Speaker: And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
Speaker: I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be like you.
Speaker: I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be like you.
