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Arranging Tangerines Episode 31 - A Conversation with Brian Alfred
5 Plays2 years ago
In a special episode for us this week, we sit down with Brian Alfred, artist and host of the SOUND & VISION podcast, who is a big inspiration on what we do here at Arranging Tangerines. In our discussion, we touch on the curatorial process, the importance of soccer, the gravitas that comes with age and experience, the overlap between music and visual art, Brian’s painting process and trajectory, diving into the world of animation, how collaboration happens within his work, the importance of mentorship, and his thoughts on the now cooling-off NFT craze.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Arranging Tangerines' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
00:00:05
Speaker
Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
00:00:13
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:15
Speaker
I know what to say.
00:00:16
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:00:18
Speaker
I know what to do.
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Speaker
I don't know what to say.
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Speaker
I just know I don't want to.
Meet Brian Alfred
00:00:33
Speaker
This week's guest is Brian Alfred.
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Speaker
Brian Alfred is an artist, podcaster, educator, and curator based out of Brooklyn who has shown his work internationally for the past 20 years.
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Speaker
He is the recipient of an American Academy of Arts and Letters Purchase Award, the NYFA Inspiration Award, and the Pollack Krasner Foundation Grant.
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Speaker
He's an alumnus of Yale, Skowhegan, and Penn State.
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His work is in the collections of institutions such as the Guggenheim Museum, the Whitney Museum, and others.
00:00:58
Speaker
He is the host of Sound and Vision, one of the top visual arts podcasts in the world.
00:01:03
Speaker
Hey, how's it going?
Microphone Setups and Remote Recording
00:01:04
Speaker
What's up, Ryan?
00:01:05
Speaker
Hey, how's it going?
00:01:08
Speaker
It took a second because that link wasn't working.
00:01:12
Speaker
So I just manually entered in the meeting information.
00:01:16
Speaker
Sorry about that.
00:01:17
Speaker
All good.
00:01:19
Speaker
You look all professional there.
00:01:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:27
Speaker
How so?
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Speaker
My fatigued face?
00:01:30
Speaker
Is that professionalism?
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's it.
00:01:34
Speaker
No, I think it's mostly just that mic stand because every time we record not in person, we have to figure out how to set up our mics and mine's like rubber banded to a tripod right now.
00:01:49
Speaker
So I think investing in some of those mic arms would be good.
00:01:54
Speaker
They're pretty cheap.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:57
Speaker
And it's funny because, uh,
00:01:58
Speaker
A lot of times when I interview people there, or if I'm in a faculty meeting or something like that, I use this just because it's set up, you know, and everyone's always like, oh, this is like super professional.
00:02:10
Speaker
It's a pretty low budget operation.
00:02:12
Speaker
You're like 1999 on Amazon.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah, this is my son makes fun of me because this boom arm is like super not fancy.
00:02:21
Speaker
Right.
00:02:23
Speaker
Right.
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Speaker
Because there's like there's like actual nice ones that are cool that the gamers use and stuff.
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Speaker
Right.
00:02:27
Speaker
Exactly.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:28
Speaker
They're all seamless and like, you know, amazing.
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:32
Speaker
Do you have a rig for like remote stuff?
00:02:35
Speaker
Do you go to other people's studios?
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:39
Speaker
I mean, I used to do all my podcasts in person or at least 99%.
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But I just have like, you know,
00:02:48
Speaker
They're just little tabletop things.
00:02:51
Speaker
I usually don't set this up.
00:02:53
Speaker
I mean, I could bring a boom arm, but it's like this little guy.
00:02:57
Speaker
And you record into like a Zoom or something?
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Speaker
No.
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Speaker
I use USB mics.
00:03:03
Speaker
Oh, you go right into your laptop?
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Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:06
Speaker
Why bother with all that other stuff?
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Speaker
I mean, I don't know.
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Speaker
I don't know.
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Although, yeah.
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And I just use like a couple of these roadies that I take on the road.
00:03:16
Speaker
Nice.
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Speaker
But yeah, the whole mixing interface thing, I think, only matters if you have more than one or two people.
Teaching Art and Conceptual Understanding
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Or if you have a lot of mics.
00:03:29
Speaker
But I'm not doing real-time mixing and stuff.
00:03:32
Speaker
It's just not necessary.
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Everything, you could do it in a computer.
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Speaker
And when I was driving around and doing this stuff, I didn't want to lug too much stuff around.
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It was enough as it is.
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And then last question about audio.
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Speaker
What do you use for recording into your laptop?
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Speaker
It's super fancy.
00:03:52
Speaker
GarageBand?
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, I use GarageBand.
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Speaker
I mean, I've used Audition before, but it's just too many bells and whistles.
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Speaker
It's literally like a voice going into the computer.
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Speaker
So, GarageBand is what I use.
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I have the Zoom as a backup just in case.
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Speaker
What's up?
00:04:11
Speaker
Go ahead.
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Speaker
Sorry.
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Speaker
Oh, I was just asking.
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We use GarageBand, right, Alex?
00:04:15
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Yeah, we use GarageBand as well.
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Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Brian, does your son... I mean, I spent years recording and like I can use Pro Tools, like, well, back when I was younger, Pro Tools and that stuff, but it's a voice, you know, it's very easy.
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Speaker
I imagine your son has way more patience for the DAW, is that what they call them?
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What is that?
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ProLogic and all that software.
00:04:44
Speaker
Oh, digital audio.
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Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah.
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Speaker
Well, he does film stuff.
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So he's into that whole... Yeah, there's so many programs.
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Speaker
It's really...
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Speaker
Cool, but daunting.
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Speaker
I mean, I teach digital painting and, you know, I teach the act of it now.
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Speaker
Like instead of, you know, I used to say, we're going to use Procreate or we're going to use, you know, like Adobe.
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Speaker
But then these kids have so many different programs.
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I can't learn all this program.
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I mean, I would spend my whole life trying to figure out all these programs.
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Speaker
So I just teach the act of doing it.
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Then, you know, they show me like, oh, this is in this program, you could do this.
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Oh, that's cool.
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You know, but there's just so much out there.
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You can't.
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That's why GarageBand is so easy and simple.
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You know, I first started recording into a four track.
00:05:35
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That was super easy.
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With Tim.
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Now you have the end of the world.
00:05:39
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You know, you can do anything.
00:05:40
Speaker
It's amazing.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it's just starting to happen in educational programs, but like moving away from software specific courses and into kind of like translatable skills that you can use in a bunch of, in like any program, because there are so many now and so many that are
00:06:00
Speaker
open source too, which is like huge
Organic Conversations in Podcasting
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for equity.
00:06:03
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Right.
00:06:03
Speaker
Um, so that was, that's definitely been a shift.
00:06:07
Speaker
I teach also, and that's been a shift in my thinking is like how to, uh, you know, cause it's so easy to like do these demos that teach kids skills and conceptual ideas at the same time.
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But I'm, I'm like often going in from the software perspective, uh, cause it's, cause it's easy.
00:06:23
Speaker
Um, and so to have to flip it a little bit is a fun challenge.
00:06:26
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Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah, these, you know, in teaching art,
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Speaker
there's this feeling of like, well, do you teach how, what's the balance?
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What's the ratio of like actual, you know, application of things.
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Speaker
And then the sort of conceptual and idea side of things.
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Speaker
And nowadays with digital stuff, it's just like, you have, you go conceptual because otherwise you can't, and everyone can tutorial and everything anyway.
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So you can figure out how to do it.
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Speaker
It's like, you know, do you, do you want to,
00:06:59
Speaker
It's like I had a studio visit in grad school with Matthew Ritchie and he came in and he's like, all right, do you want me to spend this half hour talking about how you can make your lines crisp and straight in your paintings or do you want to talk about ideas?
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And I felt part of me was like, oh, it'd be cool to know that.
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Ideas.
00:07:19
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Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:20
Speaker
You can't watch YouTube videos.
00:07:22
Speaker
You can't watch YouTube videos that like help you change your like how you view the world or like change your paradigms.
00:07:28
Speaker
Right.
00:07:29
Speaker
Those have to happen through through conversations.
00:07:32
Speaker
Or through experiences or other things.
00:07:35
Speaker
Or the app.
00:07:36
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You can, but it's like hundreds of hours of lectures and just to get like a little snippet.
00:07:43
Speaker
Right.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:44
Speaker
And to be able to back and forth, right?
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To be able to like try out some ideas as a learner on somebody who has so much knowledge and then like see how they react.
00:07:52
Speaker
And then that like gives you new information.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know.
00:07:56
Speaker
That's one of the things I've enjoyed the most about doing this podcast is like learning, feeling like I'm like learning about myself through conversations with other people.
Impact of Pandemic on Production Quality
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Speaker
Definitely.
00:08:09
Speaker
You learn a lot, I think.
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Speaker
I laughed before when you were talking about something serious because I noticed you actually do have like rubber bands holding your microphone.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker
They're not even like, no, that's like, yeah, that's, I thought that was an exaggeration, but I love that you MacGyvered that thing.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:29
Speaker
We usually have a better setup.
00:08:30
Speaker
It's all like sitting at the gallery and we're, we're separated because it's summer and everybody's doing summer things.
00:08:35
Speaker
So the, yeah, the remote setup is very DIY.
00:08:39
Speaker
It works though.
00:08:40
Speaker
You know, when I first started doing it, I was worried about it, you know, it's like, well, well, internet signal.
00:08:45
Speaker
And then it was like,
00:08:47
Speaker
You know, because I used to sit right next to people, but it's pretty close.
00:08:51
Speaker
I mean, there's certain things you don't get, like parking tickets.
00:08:56
Speaker
Right.
00:08:57
Speaker
And, you know, the smell and feel of someone sitting like three feet away.
00:09:01
Speaker
But, you know, this is pretty good, all things considered.
00:09:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:05
Speaker
I also think that kind of like long form conversation type podcasts, you know, like the listeners are a little less concerned with production value and a little more concerned with the content.
00:09:14
Speaker
So as long as you can hear what everybody's saying, I think it's all good.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, I try to make it as good as possible, though, because if the people listen to it now and it sounds crappy.
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:09:28
Speaker
It gets so old.
00:09:29
Speaker
It's funny because during the pandemic, so many big production podcasts when you could tell they went home.
00:09:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:36
Speaker
And they didn't have a producer.
00:09:38
Speaker
And it was like, man, this is like a major network hosting this podcast.
00:09:43
Speaker
And it sounds like tin cans and a wire.
00:09:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker
It was funny to see a bunch of the networks trying to, they had to learn from YouTube how to produce things because they were, they were struggling for a while.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
They're like watching 14 year olds to see how they see how they put their shows together.
00:09:58
Speaker
Exactly.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:00
Speaker
They never had to DIY it, you know?
Inspiration and Originality in Podcasting
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:04
Speaker
Anyway.
00:10:06
Speaker
Thanks for agreeing to be on the podcast.
00:10:09
Speaker
Sure.
00:10:09
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:10:10
Speaker
I don't think I've been this nervous for any of our guests.
00:10:15
Speaker
Really?
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker
I mean, you were the one that kind of like started this thing for us.
00:10:20
Speaker
I mean, we kind of like emulated your podcast.
00:10:23
Speaker
I think it's one of the better ones for art.
00:10:28
Speaker
Thanks.
00:10:29
Speaker
Also, to be fair, I didn't realize how much we were emulating yours until we got into it because Alex was like, do you want to do some podcasting also?
00:10:37
Speaker
And I'm like, sure.
00:10:38
Speaker
And I wasn't really a...
00:10:40
Speaker
a pod head.
00:10:42
Speaker
And so I realized we were using a very similar model to yours.
00:10:46
Speaker
And then he's like, Oh, we're going to have Brian Alfred on.
00:10:48
Speaker
I was like, Oh, right.
00:10:48
Speaker
That's the, that's the guy that we stole the podcast format from.
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:53
Speaker
I'm pretty sure I didn't invent saying, hi, here's this artist.
00:10:57
Speaker
Let's talk.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:00
Speaker
No, I know.
00:11:01
Speaker
I know.
00:11:01
Speaker
But I mean, your conversations are so organic.
00:11:04
Speaker
And I mean, I love that sometimes you don't even talk about the artwork itself.
00:11:08
Speaker
It's just about like, how's your life going?
00:11:10
Speaker
And what's your favorite music?
00:11:15
Speaker
Or what does your art look like if it was music?
00:11:17
Speaker
Which is one of my favorite things where you play quite often.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think when you, when there's no, there's no, nothing at stake really.
00:11:29
Speaker
So, you know, when I started doing it, there was no, first of all, there weren't a ton of podcasts.
00:11:33
Speaker
I mean, there were a lot, but it wasn't like today.
00:11:38
Speaker
I just wanted to talk to people about or talk to artists about stuff that they normally don't get to talk about.
00:11:45
Speaker
So, because I think artists are interesting and they're always asked the same few questions.
00:11:50
Speaker
So I figured, well, here's a chance to, you know, just BS basically.
00:11:55
Speaker
And, yeah, there's nothing at stake.
00:11:59
Speaker
So, you know, just laid back conversations.
Exploring Artists' Lives through Podcasting
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:02
Speaker
And if you wanted to... Hopefully that's why people like it, you know?
00:12:05
Speaker
If you wanted kind of like the canned responses, they're all over the place, right?
00:12:09
Speaker
That's like what artists are used to giving.
00:12:11
Speaker
And so it also doesn't really make sense to just kind of regurgitate that content.
00:12:15
Speaker
I mean, it does reach a new audience sometimes, but I think it is, you know, it is nice to just like...
00:12:21
Speaker
hear like an expanded version of an artist's existence, I guess.
00:12:26
Speaker
And I know you mentioned, I read somewhere that like the podcast kind of started because you really enjoyed having these studio visit conversations and it made sense to kind of record them.
00:12:35
Speaker
And I feel like that's a lot of,
00:12:37
Speaker
the kind of stuff that comes up during studio visits once you get past the, you know, like the formal, what you're supposed to talk about at a studio visit.
00:12:46
Speaker
Then you get to talk about real stuff, right?
00:12:49
Speaker
Which is cool.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, artists, like, I don't go to my friend's studios as like a studio visit.
00:12:55
Speaker
Right.
00:12:56
Speaker
I'm just going, we're just going to hang out.
00:12:57
Speaker
So,
00:12:58
Speaker
You know, it was more of that than... And plus, I'm not asking... I mean, now it's gotten to the point to where I'm so interested in people's lives and where they got to where they got to.
00:13:07
Speaker
And I think part of that is from hearing so many people talk about that in the podcast that now I search for it.
00:13:14
Speaker
There's certain things I look for.
00:13:15
Speaker
But at the beginning, I wasn't asking questions.
00:13:19
Speaker
I was just sort of talking to them.
00:13:22
Speaker
And then, you know, if you're going to sit there and talk to someone for a while...
00:13:25
Speaker
you're going to get to, you know, well, I'm interested in where this person's from and like, you know, how school was or how they ended up where they got to.
00:13:36
Speaker
But it's not really, I never thought of it as like an interview.
00:13:39
Speaker
It's more of just like conversation.
00:13:43
Speaker
But it even goes so far as
00:13:46
Speaker
Because you've done some curation and some of the artists that you've curated into your shows come directly from your
Curating Art Shows and Podcasting
00:13:53
Speaker
podcast.
00:13:53
Speaker
I'm sure that helps you kind of like find new people to kind of match together and basically a color of a palette basically to paint with for your curation process.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's funny because a show is so different in a way because like with the podcast, I don't talk to the same person twice.
00:14:16
Speaker
So it's always someone new.
00:14:17
Speaker
So obviously it's open to like if I find someone interesting, I might not like the work.
00:14:25
Speaker
necessarily, or it might not be my cup of tea, but if I'm interested in them as a person, I'll talk to them.
00:14:31
Speaker
So whereas when you're curating a show, it's kind of usually building it around something, at least in my instances, it's been that.
00:14:39
Speaker
So, but yeah, it definitely, I feel, I wonder about that.
00:14:47
Speaker
I feel pretty confident that if I'm going to curate a group show and there's going to be 25 people in it,
00:14:56
Speaker
I could probably get most of the people I ask to do it just based on them knowing who I am in the gallery that I'm doing it with.
00:15:03
Speaker
And I think it would probably be a similar percentage after doing the podcast with people.
00:15:08
Speaker
Maybe a little greater because they know me better or something.
00:15:11
Speaker
Right.
00:15:12
Speaker
I think it's pretty similar.
00:15:13
Speaker
So, I mean, the curating stuff I've been into...
00:15:18
Speaker
And I haven't had a ton of opportunities to do it.
00:15:21
Speaker
I mean, I've had some, but I could do it as a profession.
00:15:27
Speaker
It would be cool to just curate shows.
00:15:29
Speaker
Not that I couldn't give up making art, but if I couldn't make art, I could do it.
00:15:35
Speaker
And it'd be fun to do.
00:15:39
Speaker
But maybe, yeah, I mean, talking to hundreds of people in the way that I have over the past however many years has definitely changed everything and nothing at the same time, but everything.
00:15:53
Speaker
It's a whole different world.
00:15:55
Speaker
It's weird.
00:15:55
Speaker
I never started the project thinking any of that stuff.
00:16:00
Speaker
So it's been a cool byproduct.
00:16:03
Speaker
What's the biggest part of the everything as far as the change?
00:16:07
Speaker
Just...
00:16:10
Speaker
Well, the day, the way that I structure my week and my days and the way I think about making work and my relationship to art, the way that, um,
00:16:23
Speaker
the way I think about the grander scheme of things, like it's much less centered around me and more sort of universal.
00:16:31
Speaker
You know, it's maybe less selfish in a way.
00:16:34
Speaker
And it's filled my brain with like so much stuff.
00:16:38
Speaker
And I don't remember a lot of it.
00:16:42
Speaker
I don't know.
00:16:43
Speaker
Like I keep doing that thing of like, am I getting older and just losing some memory or is it just like filled?
00:16:49
Speaker
Because, you know, there'll be people reach out
00:16:52
Speaker
and say like, oh, I love that in that episode where you talked about this.
00:16:57
Speaker
And I was like, is that right?
00:17:00
Speaker
I assume you probably don't listen to them afterwards after you've put them out, right?
00:17:04
Speaker
After you've edited and put them out.
00:17:06
Speaker
No, I listen to... No, not at all.
00:17:09
Speaker
And actually when I edit it, I have editing ear.
00:17:12
Speaker
So I'll listen to it, but I'm not listening to it.
00:17:15
Speaker
Right.
00:17:15
Speaker
So I'm just listening to mess ups and like anything that's like out of sync or something.
00:17:20
Speaker
Sure.
00:17:22
Speaker
So there's this documented thing that other people listen to kind of intently or casually that really is kind of a casual conversation.
00:17:30
Speaker
And it's like the same as being like, oh, remember that one thing you said four months ago at the bar when we were talking about this thing?
00:17:37
Speaker
You're like, no, but sure.
00:17:39
Speaker
I'm sure I did say that, right?
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:42
Speaker
It's interesting.
00:17:42
Speaker
It's weird.
Niche Audience and Public Recognition
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
I mean, it's a niche audience.
00:17:45
Speaker
Like, it's not, you know, it does well in a certain audience, but it's not like tons and tons of people are listening to it.
00:17:53
Speaker
I mean, there's a lot of art people listen to it, I guess.
00:17:56
Speaker
So I don't really bump into those people often, you know.
00:18:00
Speaker
But when I do, it's weird.
00:18:04
Speaker
I was watching my... I'm involved in the youth soccer club here.
00:18:09
Speaker
And I was watching a practice of some of the kids and talking to the coach.
00:18:13
Speaker
And a guy came over, a super nice guy.
00:18:15
Speaker
He's like, hey, do you do a podcast?
00:18:18
Speaker
And so he was talking to me about the podcast.
00:18:21
Speaker
He said, oh, I listen to it all the time.
00:18:22
Speaker
I'm an artist.
00:18:23
Speaker
My studio is like a couple blocks over there.
00:18:25
Speaker
And it was just so weird to me that, like, I don't know how he recognized, maybe just because my picture's online here and there, but not much.
00:18:35
Speaker
But it's this weird feeling when people, like, I went to play a pickup game at soccer, and I was captaining my team, and we were picking the players, and we were talking about positions, and one guy's like, your voice sounds really familiar.
00:18:46
Speaker
Anyways, he knew the podcast, which was funny.
00:18:49
Speaker
I mean, I live in Williamsburg, so...
00:18:52
Speaker
I mean, you know, there's some overlap with your, with your niche market already.
00:18:57
Speaker
Probably.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
I played on the pickup team against you for probably a couple of years before I realized who you were.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how like those worlds, you know, in New York, you can do different things.
00:19:11
Speaker
I know some people are like avid rock climbers and they're always fascinated when like people from their day to day life or like whatever their job is or whatever lines up with that.
00:19:22
Speaker
And it's like, oh yeah, you're the guy in the office, you know, it's kind of funny.
00:19:27
Speaker
Joe, Brian is about as good a soccer player as a painter and he's a really good painter.
00:19:36
Speaker
So every time I play, I get... I can't even play anymore.
00:19:38
Speaker
I can't even play anymore.
00:19:39
Speaker
I'm just too old.
00:19:40
Speaker
Like, I'm getting too sore and stiff.
00:19:42
Speaker
Yeah, I could attest to that.
00:19:45
Speaker
Unless it's, like, the old dude's lead.
00:19:47
Speaker
I can do, like, you know, the 50 over.
00:19:49
Speaker
But, like, the young guys are too strong and fast, and I just end up getting hurt.
00:19:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:19:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:19:56
Speaker
I believe that.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, but you still have the skills.
00:19:57
Speaker
It is fun to play.
00:19:59
Speaker
I was just saying that I have a favorite of your episodes.
00:20:02
Speaker
It's the Morgan Blair episode.
00:20:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker
Oh, really?
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:07
Speaker
It was just... It involved some YouTube talk and some... Yeah, that was fun.
00:20:10
Speaker
I was just... I don't think I've heard... Are you at like 300 episodes or close to it?
00:20:16
Speaker
320 something?
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:21
Speaker
She was just like... You'd bring up like a painter, an example, and she'd be like, I don't know who that is.
00:20:26
Speaker
And she'd be just like, I don't know.
00:20:28
Speaker
I don't care.
00:20:28
Speaker
I just make work.
00:20:29
Speaker
And it was just so refreshing to hear.
00:20:31
Speaker
And you guys just had a really pure...
00:20:34
Speaker
down to earth conversation.
00:20:36
Speaker
It was fantastic.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, that was fun.
00:20:39
Speaker
She's really interesting.
00:20:42
Speaker
She's got some very specific, like, I loved her taste too, like what she listens to in music and, you know, the way she thinks about making her work is really cool.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, I was telling Alex before when I was prepping for this episode a little bit, I always have a harder time with painters because it's just, it's like my least knowledgeable medium.
00:21:03
Speaker
And so Morgan Blair is actually a painter I know.
00:21:06
Speaker
So I feel like I'm starting off on a good here because that's a reference I know.
00:21:12
Speaker
I also would like to listen to that episode because I love her paintings.
00:21:15
Speaker
I think they're great.
00:21:17
Speaker
And I feel like her conversation was probably super interesting.
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker
And I feel like, hopefully, I don't know how it is.
00:21:24
Speaker
I mean, obviously being a painter and, you know, for decades, like that's sort of like my home base of what I know the most about.
00:21:34
Speaker
But, you know, I feel like as a teacher too, I need to be able to speak to ceramicists and sculptors and photographers and
Maturity and Experience in Conversations
00:21:41
Speaker
new media artists.
00:21:41
Speaker
And I try to learn as much as I can about that stuff.
00:21:44
Speaker
But hopefully in the podcast, you don't even have to
00:21:47
Speaker
You don't need those entry points.
00:21:49
Speaker
I mean, sometimes we get into the weeds a little bit about, you know, talking about painters or whatever it is, specifics of like art history, but hopefully it's still somewhat interesting.
00:21:59
Speaker
Like I'll listen to musicians talk about, you know, stuff that you're doing and some of the stuff I don't know about or whatever, but I'd love hearing them geek out about it, you know?
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
No, yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
I'm always just trying to come up with a few like thoughtful prompts that can let the person that is on kind of like extrapolate
00:22:18
Speaker
you know, what it is for them and what they're interested in.
00:22:21
Speaker
I just always want those to be like relevant and like thoughtful is all.
00:22:26
Speaker
But yeah.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:27
Speaker
I will say this, that I think that doing like talking to people at this stage in my life, I think makes it probably much more successful and interesting than if I tried to do a podcast when I was like 25.
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:42
Speaker
You know, I just wouldn't,
00:22:44
Speaker
I think talking about maybe it's a balance.
00:22:47
Speaker
Maybe it's too much.
00:22:48
Speaker
Like, you know, like the older people get, the more they talk.
00:22:52
Speaker
And sometimes you're like, okay, we get it.
00:22:54
Speaker
But, but then when you're younger, you just, your experiences are more limited.
00:22:59
Speaker
There's nothing wrong with that.
00:23:00
Speaker
You can have a certain energy that works, but.
00:23:03
Speaker
Like I'll never forget.
00:23:04
Speaker
I was, I like to talk, I like to do talks and like talk about my work because it's become much less centered about my work and a bigger thing that I think hopefully inspires like students.
00:23:15
Speaker
But I was asked to speak at the Young Collectors.
00:23:18
Speaker
It's like, it was a lecture series that was geared towards more younger artists and it was at the Guggenheim.
00:23:25
Speaker
And I remember just being like,
00:23:28
Speaker
Like thinking back now, I was like, what did I talk about?
00:23:30
Speaker
I was younger and I probably didn't know what I was saying.
00:23:33
Speaker
Like I would have loved to have done that now because I feel like it would have been so much more interesting.
00:23:38
Speaker
But I don't know.
00:23:39
Speaker
You know, I think the older you get, the more experiences you have, the more you can relate to or there's more there to sort of go to, which it doesn't necessarily mean success, but it's just a deeper well to choose from.
00:23:52
Speaker
I love talking to older artists.
00:23:55
Speaker
like ones that are like in their 60s or 70s because they can just, I mean, I got to budget the time, but they can go.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
Well, I've even noticed in your, since the beginning of your podcast, you kind of like bring more of yourself now.
00:24:12
Speaker
You kind of like, I don't know if, I don't know what the term would be, but it was like, I don't know if you were kind of like more guarded in the beginning and kind of allowed the artist to kind of talk, but now you're kind of like,
00:24:24
Speaker
more free to kind of interject and you're allowing yourself to kind of like be part of the conversation more fully.
00:24:30
Speaker
I don't know if that makes sense.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:32
Speaker
I honestly don't know.
00:24:34
Speaker
Maybe that happened.
00:24:38
Speaker
Whatever it is, it's organic.
00:24:39
Speaker
I'm not even thinking about it.
00:24:40
Speaker
It's definitely been the gradual thing.
00:24:43
Speaker
I feel like it's like a really good, you know, really good TV shows in their first season are like finding their footing.
00:24:49
Speaker
Right.
00:24:49
Speaker
And not that you're in your first season, Brian, but like, you know, as you go, you start to like find like,
00:24:57
Speaker
routines and things that work really well and feel really good.
00:24:59
Speaker
And you kind of like lean into those more and it is this organic process.
00:25:02
Speaker
And then, uh, you know, the second season comes around and you're like really hitting the stride.
00:25:07
Speaker
Um, and, and it's like the, the process of making the thing, uh, helps you find that stuff.
00:25:13
Speaker
Um, which I think, which I think is always, is always like how it should be.
00:25:18
Speaker
Uh, I mean, I guess like, you know, planning, planning things and structuring things really intentionally can also mean success, but I think it often leads to less interesting results.
00:25:27
Speaker
Well, I think it too, it depends on the structure.
00:25:30
Speaker
Like since my conversations with people are supposed to be what's supposed to be in my efforts of being more laid back and casual.
00:25:40
Speaker
Because you rarely hear artists in that setting.
00:25:42
Speaker
You know, it's more of like a structured interview.
00:25:44
Speaker
So I feel like maybe as years go by and I do it more and more, I'm just more relaxed about it.
00:25:49
Speaker
I mean, you really get, it's like making work.
00:25:51
Speaker
Like when I first started showing work, this is for good or for bad, who knows?
00:25:55
Speaker
But when you first start showing your work, those first couple of shows are like, I mean, they mean the world.
00:26:01
Speaker
You're just like, oh my God, I hope this works out.
00:26:04
Speaker
And then, you know, after showing for 20 years, you're like, yep.
00:26:07
Speaker
You know, this is what I'm into.
00:26:08
Speaker
This is what I'm working on.
00:26:09
Speaker
I hope people are into it.
00:26:11
Speaker
But if not, whatever.
00:26:14
Speaker
You know, it's like, it is what it is.
00:26:15
Speaker
It's like, I'm just going to do my thing.
00:26:17
Speaker
And, you know, it's not quite so life
Evolution of Imagery and Art Post-9/11
00:26:21
Speaker
or death.
00:26:21
Speaker
I mean, you still are passionate about what you're making and you still want people to engage in it.
00:26:27
Speaker
But you're not like pins and needles about it.
00:26:30
Speaker
You know, you're just like, well, here it is, you know.
00:26:33
Speaker
I mean, you were killing it, though, out of the gate.
00:26:36
Speaker
I do remember seeing you cutting images of your paintings out of Art in America when you were showing it.
00:26:42
Speaker
Was it Hanche and Venison?
00:26:44
Speaker
Is that the European gallery?
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that was.
00:26:51
Speaker
I started showing with Hanche and Venison.
00:26:54
Speaker
I want to say like 2005, 2006 maybe.
00:26:57
Speaker
First in England and then Zurich and Berlin.
00:27:01
Speaker
But yeah, that was back in the earlier days.
00:27:04
Speaker
It was showing in like the late 90s.
00:27:07
Speaker
In like 99, I think was my first two-person show.
00:27:10
Speaker
So it's been a little bit.
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah, those were amazing paintings.
00:27:13
Speaker
I mean, you're still painting amazingly, but it was just, you just kind of hit it out of the park from the get-go.
00:27:22
Speaker
I remember a lot of surveillance and airplanes and space shuttle.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah, it knocked me out when I first saw your paintings.
00:27:35
Speaker
Thank you.
00:27:36
Speaker
It's funny because living through
00:27:40
Speaker
You know, 9-11 and then after that, there was a real air, you know, there was a real weight to imagery, I think.
00:27:48
Speaker
And imagery was just changing so much, like the speed of information, like cable news and the internet was starting to get pickup speed, literally.
00:27:56
Speaker
And, you know, it just, there was a real shift visually and in the world as far as like that stuff.
00:28:04
Speaker
And my work has always tapped into the world around us in any way, shape or form.
00:28:09
Speaker
So,
00:28:10
Speaker
Yeah, it was pretty heavy back then, like a lot of that stuff in the air.
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:28:19
Speaker
But to go back to your episodes, one of the things I do notice that's been consistent when you speak is, and you can't see it, obviously, because it's an audio medium, but you get a little light in your step when you speak to musicians.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
It's a funner.
00:28:40
Speaker
You know, it's like your hobby.
00:28:42
Speaker
It's like the thing.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know.
00:28:45
Speaker
It's different.
00:28:46
Speaker
But you could have probably easily have easily been a professional musician because you had that band in college and your love of music.
00:28:54
Speaker
It could have been a direction, correct?
00:28:56
Speaker
Right.
00:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely.
00:29:03
Speaker
It was, it's a huge part of my life.
00:29:04
Speaker
So it's just how it fits in.
00:29:07
Speaker
You know, it was difficult because whenever we got out of school, the band that I was in, and I was in band since high school,
00:29:14
Speaker
You know, it was harder to tour and do all that stuff because, you know, day to day life.
00:29:18
Speaker
And so it became something that I tried to incorporate into my creative work in a different way.
00:29:24
Speaker
Like I could, you know, collaborate with musicians on like catalogs and animation soundtracks and stuff like that.
00:29:31
Speaker
So I still am in that world in a way, you know, of...
00:29:37
Speaker
collaboration and stuff but and i still play music a lot but i just don't release it or do any of that stuff oh really and i i think there's um you know the the idea of kind of like a career and and the thing you do professionally um i think gets a lot more muddled when it comes to being an artist or a
00:30:02
Speaker
Even fairly well-known musicians have side hustles and side jobs that they do.
00:30:08
Speaker
And so I don't know.
00:30:10
Speaker
One of the things that I appreciated when I started looking at your website is the way you offer the projects that you're working on as this kind of whole encompassing thing.
00:30:20
Speaker
which I think that visual artists sometimes don't want to do because they feel like it's going to make them look like they're less of an artist if they're also like, and I teach and I curate and I do a podcast or XYZ.
00:30:34
Speaker
And maybe this is kind of like connecting to what you were saying about as people get older, they kind of, they give less of a shit about what people think about what they're doing.
00:30:43
Speaker
And so you could make the argument that you are a professional musician.
00:30:46
Speaker
or a professional X, Y, or Z, because you kind of exist in the world and you do things around those things.
00:30:52
Speaker
And sure, like maybe a lot of your money comes from this one thing and you don't make money off of this other thing.
00:30:58
Speaker
But I think if you can extract the money-making part of it, it changes the definitions of kind of career trajectory and professional a little bit.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, I guess, well, the decision,
00:31:14
Speaker
in a way happened when I realized that I love making art and I love making music and it's kind of the same thing.
00:31:21
Speaker
You're just being creative.
00:31:23
Speaker
So I feel like, Oh, I can do this one thing where I'm going to have to work with other people and then also be on tour a lot and not be home.
00:31:31
Speaker
And you have to live a certain lifestyle, or I can do this other thing where I can sit in a room by myself and
00:31:36
Speaker
and make my own schedule do to work the way I want to do it.
00:31:38
Speaker
So I think that had a big sort of impact on it.
00:31:42
Speaker
I mean, it wasn't, you know, I was going to school for art and not for music.
00:31:48
Speaker
So there was a structure around it.
00:31:51
Speaker
It was just, I think it fits better into what I do or the way that I want to live my life, I guess.
00:31:56
Speaker
I mean, I love music.
00:31:58
Speaker
I don't think I could go on.
00:32:00
Speaker
I mean, the tour thing was tough.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:03
Speaker
It's hard.
00:32:05
Speaker
Being in a band, it was hard.
00:32:06
Speaker
It's great, but it's difficult.
00:32:08
Speaker
You're leaning on other people's schedules and creative influences and all that stuff.
00:32:13
Speaker
So it's tricky.
00:32:15
Speaker
But yeah, to your point, I spent basically, I would say...
Balancing Artistic Pursuits
00:32:21
Speaker
like 20 years, maybe a little less of just painting and animating.
00:32:27
Speaker
And that was my thing.
00:32:28
Speaker
So I think that, you know, the teaching and the podcast and, you
00:32:35
Speaker
Other things that I do just organically came out of the process of being a painter.
00:32:43
Speaker
And it wasn't really like a decision.
00:32:45
Speaker
So I didn't maybe worry about it too much, what people thought of doing too many things.
00:32:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
I don't know if I got it from you, but do you miss the one-to-one energy exchange?
00:33:02
Speaker
When you play music, it's like...
00:33:04
Speaker
it's immediate, it's an immediacy that you can't necessarily get from say someone seeing a painting, because obviously you have to paint it, then you have to put it up and then someone has to see it and then someone has to talk to you about it.
00:33:16
Speaker
It's like, there's so many steps of removal, whereas music, it's like you're playing in front of someone and it's immediate.
00:33:22
Speaker
And it's going into their ear holes.
00:33:24
Speaker
And it's like probably one of the more primal senses that we have.
00:33:27
Speaker
And it's like, it's like, it's like, it just, it just hits.
00:33:30
Speaker
Right.
00:33:32
Speaker
Do you miss that?
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:33:35
Speaker
I mean, that's, it's been so long since I performed that, you know, it feels like a while ago, but I do miss it.
00:33:43
Speaker
I do miss that feeling of, of that direct one to one.
00:33:46
Speaker
But maybe in a way I've supplanted that through the podcast because there's a one-to-one conversation.
00:33:51
Speaker
So it's a direct way that other people can then download on their devices and listen to it with their own leisure.
00:33:59
Speaker
Speaking of which... I forgot.
00:34:05
Speaker
Well, it'll be obviously in our notes, but sound and vision is what Brian is referring to.
00:34:10
Speaker
If anyone...
00:34:12
Speaker
likes art even a little bit, it's definitely worth listening to.
00:34:16
Speaker
I think every art student should probably listen to some of the episodes.
00:34:21
Speaker
It's a great learning tool.
00:34:23
Speaker
Thanks, yeah, it's fun.
00:34:24
Speaker
I mean, it's weird now because some people...
00:34:29
Speaker
know the podcast and like, oh, you're an artist too or something, or maybe they don't listen to or haven't heard a lot of it, but they know, oh, I'm familiar with that podcast or I've heard of that podcast.
00:34:39
Speaker
Oh, you're an artist too.
00:34:40
Speaker
And it's, that's always a weird feeling because, you know, it's my origin as an artist.
00:34:46
Speaker
So, and that's where I come to the podcast from.
00:34:49
Speaker
So, but that's inevitable, I think.
00:34:51
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, I that was one of my questions was about music, music versus visual arts.
00:34:58
Speaker
And if you had one that you connected with more than the other, even though, right, you've been, you know, you've been making paintings for for 20 years.
00:35:08
Speaker
Um, do you have like a, a stronger connection to music or visual arts?
00:35:15
Speaker
Um, I know personally, like I, and maybe this is what Alex was kind of talking about, which was this primal thing, but I actually like, I think I like music more than I like art.
00:35:24
Speaker
Uh, not to say that, like, I don't love, um, consuming and viewing artwork, um,
00:35:32
Speaker
But the experience is just so different.
00:35:35
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:35:36
Speaker
I was just wondering if you had thoughts on that or a preference of one or the other.
00:35:40
Speaker
I mean, it's such a hard decision.
00:35:45
Speaker
They're both amazing in different ways.
00:35:47
Speaker
I do think music is more primal in a way.
00:35:53
Speaker
There's something like it involves the body and it's...
00:35:57
Speaker
I mean, so does, I guess, looking at things.
00:35:59
Speaker
I don't know.
00:36:00
Speaker
Like, if you say you're going to be stranded on an island.
00:36:03
Speaker
I was just going to do the stranded on an island question.
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:06
Speaker
Take a record or a painting.
00:36:07
Speaker
I mean, I'm probably going to take a record.
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:09
Speaker
You know, it's just... I mean, it doesn't mean I don't love art, but art's different in a way.
00:36:17
Speaker
It's more heady.
00:36:18
Speaker
It's more process.
00:36:19
Speaker
It's, you know, it's... For me, it's more of a...
00:36:27
Speaker
It's more of a physical activity and reflection.
00:36:30
Speaker
It's a longer look at something that means a different thing.
Music vs. Art: Immediacy and Reflection
00:36:34
Speaker
And music is just like, you know, all right, here you go.
00:36:37
Speaker
You ready?
00:36:40
Speaker
I think I got it.
00:36:41
Speaker
I agree.
00:36:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:42
Speaker
Well, luckily we don't have to choose.
00:36:44
Speaker
Art is the relationship.
00:36:48
Speaker
Right, right.
00:36:48
Speaker
I think art is the relationship and music is the sex.
00:36:52
Speaker
Sure.
00:36:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:53
Speaker
I like that analogy.
00:36:57
Speaker
I'm not familiar.
00:36:58
Speaker
Oh, sorry.
00:37:02
Speaker
I was going to say, I'm not familiar with your, with your band that you are bands that you were in.
00:37:06
Speaker
What, what kind of music did you guys play?
00:37:11
Speaker
It was like post rock is what people would call it.
00:37:16
Speaker
So instrumental sort of jazz, jazz, influence, rock influenced.
00:37:25
Speaker
And it was it started out.
00:37:26
Speaker
Our first record was guitar, cello and drums.
00:37:30
Speaker
And the second album, we added upright bass, trumpet and trombone to that.
00:37:36
Speaker
Oh, cool.
00:37:37
Speaker
What was the band called?
00:37:39
Speaker
It was called 33.3.
00:37:40
Speaker
33.3.
00:37:40
Speaker
Cool.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, Joseph and I had bands as well.
00:37:45
Speaker
I mean, I think music is such a... It's funny that there's so much of the brain devoted to visual information, but I think the sound part is so spread out that it hits more parts of the brain.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:01
Speaker
I had, I was a classically trained classical guitarist.
00:38:06
Speaker
And I thought, I always thought I was actually going to go school, school, college for that.
00:38:11
Speaker
But I, I changed avenues and went towards film and film and television and then eventually made it to painting and printmaking.
00:38:19
Speaker
But I do miss it as well.
00:38:21
Speaker
It's, it's such a one-to-one thing.
00:38:24
Speaker
And then of course, I,
00:38:26
Speaker
playing classical guitar when you, when you do form a band, of course you don't go in that vein.
00:38:32
Speaker
I went to complete opposite direction and I started a Spanish punk rock band.
00:38:36
Speaker
Um, so you had to kind of cleanse and dilute all that stuff.
00:38:39
Speaker
Cause I mean, classical music, music can be very stringent and, you know, you're supposed to play certain things in a certain way.
00:38:46
Speaker
And,
00:38:49
Speaker
there wasn't much tolerance for deviation, which is the way it is.
00:38:55
Speaker
Nothing against the form.
00:38:58
Speaker
But I do remember the thing that kind of broke my back was I had this high level guitar teacher and he was teaching me a very difficult passage on the guitar.
00:39:10
Speaker
And then he drooled on the fretboard and he handed me the guitar to play the thing without acknowledging the drool.
00:39:19
Speaker
And I was like, what the hell?
00:39:21
Speaker
Was that like an alpha move or he just didn't notice?
00:39:23
Speaker
I don't think he noticed.
00:39:24
Speaker
He was into the thing.
00:39:26
Speaker
But then he just handed it to me.
00:39:27
Speaker
I'm like, oh, man.
00:39:30
Speaker
Where do I go from here?
00:39:32
Speaker
Punk rock.
00:39:35
Speaker
There you go.
00:39:38
Speaker
That's not your average story of moving from something more stringent to something more loose.
00:39:44
Speaker
Yeah.
Trademark Issues and Iconic Imagery
00:39:48
Speaker
I have a question about some of your paintings, which which I'm not.
00:39:54
Speaker
It's like it's like a half form question, but it's about kind of like location choices.
00:40:03
Speaker
And I think I think maybe it's like a two parter because I'm curious.
00:40:06
Speaker
So one of the things I'm wondering is if you ever run into trademark stuff with with.
00:40:13
Speaker
logos are things that are trademarked that end up in your paintings.
00:40:16
Speaker
If that's ever been an issue, I just think I'm just curious.
00:40:19
Speaker
But then the other, the other question I had was kind of like, I feel like some of your, some of your paintings that I saw, like I'm thinking of kind of like the subway station paintings or like the new museum paintings or these, or these kinds of like quiet locations, how you think about like those spaces as, um,
00:40:42
Speaker
you know, those are like iconic to a certain person.
00:40:45
Speaker
They're not iconic in the way that we like think about iconic images in like the pop art sense.
00:40:49
Speaker
And so I'm just wondering kind of like your relationship to some of those places that are probably very iconic to you or to maybe people who collect your paintings or something like that.
00:41:00
Speaker
So yeah, I think that's the thought I had.
00:41:03
Speaker
So the first question, right, is about logos?
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, if you just like ever run into like- And whether that's ever been an issue?
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:10
Speaker
It's never been an issue.
00:41:12
Speaker
Knock on wood.
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:15
Speaker
So that's not been an issue.
00:41:16
Speaker
And as far as like those iconic paintings or those, the work is usually seen within the context of a body of work or a show.
00:41:26
Speaker
And like, if you take that new museum painting, it was within the context of like a show about New York imagery.
00:41:32
Speaker
So it was, there were a lot of places in that show that were
00:41:36
Speaker
I think most of them were just pictures that I took and they had a personal meaning.
00:41:42
Speaker
So even the one that's of the Empire State Building, which seems like a more universal, iconic image, was taken.
00:41:49
Speaker
The photo of that was taken from my car where I was parking my car every day to go walk to work on a big framing thing for a big work on paper.
00:41:57
Speaker
So, and there's other places that are related to family or different experiences.
00:42:02
Speaker
So for me, it was kind of like my personal New York in a way, but with imagery that anyone could understand, relate to, or maybe be interested in.
00:42:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:42:16
Speaker
Do all your paintings come from images that you actually photograph or are there some that you kind of like glean from, say, the internet?
00:42:23
Speaker
It's a mix.
00:42:24
Speaker
They're my photos.
00:42:26
Speaker
They're hybrids of photos, like ones that I'll merge or tweak.
00:42:31
Speaker
And then some are just stuff that I find.
00:42:34
Speaker
It all depends on what the body of work is and, you know, if I can get to certain things, you know.
00:42:41
Speaker
I'll give you an example.
00:42:42
Speaker
I'm working on a new body of work.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I took a trip to the Dominican and I took some photos there and it sort of inspired a certain idea.
00:42:52
Speaker
So some of the paintings are from those images.
00:42:55
Speaker
Some are from images that are back here that relate.
00:42:59
Speaker
And some are images that are just sort of like taking multiple images and combining them together.
00:43:07
Speaker
So, you know, it's a hybrid of all this stuff, really.
Dynamic Imagery in Paintings
00:43:11
Speaker
I'm glad you mentioned the Dominican Republic because that's where I'm from or my parents are from.
00:43:15
Speaker
And I try to mention it at least once a podcast.
00:43:18
Speaker
He does.
00:43:18
Speaker
He usually fits it in some way.
00:43:19
Speaker
I'm glad I could check that box.
00:43:23
Speaker
But I'm very, I would love to see those paintings.
00:43:26
Speaker
But then that goes back to... You will.
00:43:28
Speaker
They'll be out at some point.
00:43:32
Speaker
For a particular show or you have, is it our show that... Yeah.
00:43:35
Speaker
I mean, it's so...
00:43:39
Speaker
I mean, I have a couple of loose shows that are on the horizon, but not exact dates.
00:43:43
Speaker
So what I do is I'll work on like, the genesis of a body of work just starts out of an idea.
00:43:51
Speaker
And sometimes it morphs into two bodies of work or, you know, when the show dates get, like I'll zoom in and certain things will sort of piece in.
00:43:59
Speaker
So it's not locked in yet, but right now it's just in the generative phase of new work.
00:44:04
Speaker
Nice.
00:44:06
Speaker
And then again, to go back to the consistency of your body of work throughout the years, there's a dynamic static quality to them.
00:44:17
Speaker
Like something is about to happen or something happened.
00:44:20
Speaker
How do you choose those images?
00:44:21
Speaker
Like what is it that attracts you about those particular instances that draws you to...
00:44:27
Speaker
elevate them to become paintings?
00:44:30
Speaker
Well, it's, it's, well, a couple of things.
00:44:33
Speaker
One is I think I'm just gravitated towards a certain kind of image and it's hard to verbalize what that is.
00:44:39
Speaker
Like I definitely have my eye cause like I'll go to Japan and then I'll take photos of things and my family's always like, wow, we never would have thought to zoom in on that thing.
00:44:49
Speaker
So I think I just have a natural way of noticing certain things that stick out to me that will obviously more likely to become a painting.
00:44:59
Speaker
The other side of it is, again, it depends on what the idea, like, say the surveillance imagery, the show that you were talking about that you had at Zurich.
00:45:08
Speaker
I mean, you know, I was keyed into just that was the starting point.
00:45:12
Speaker
So it's okay.
00:45:13
Speaker
Well, how many different ways can I talk about how surveillance is in the environment or how we notice it or how it notices us?
00:45:22
Speaker
Or what are the subtleties of it?
00:45:23
Speaker
Like a checkpoint where you drive through or what are the not so subtle, like a corner that has like 18 closed circuit cameras on it or something.
00:45:32
Speaker
So it's about images and what gravitates, and then also the idea of the show or the collective.
00:45:43
Speaker
So rarely do I make a painting that's just that...
00:45:48
Speaker
Like it's a painting that's lives on its own.
00:45:50
Speaker
I think about them in relation to the other ones.
00:45:53
Speaker
So, you know, it's kind of like a, I'm not making singles and making records, you know, it's always like a concept record, like, but it's just the way I work.
00:46:06
Speaker
How many, how many paintings like percentage wise don't ever get seen like you don't finish or you finish them and you're like, this one doesn't fit.
00:46:16
Speaker
Are there some that never kind of make it to the gallery?
00:46:19
Speaker
Yeah, but not a lot.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:21
Speaker
I mean, the way I work is I map stuff out a lot.
00:46:26
Speaker
Like I wish I was John Coltrane, but I'm more like, you know, Chet Baker or something.
00:46:30
Speaker
So I'm pretty sure of what something's going to look like.
00:46:34
Speaker
You have a good idea what it's going to, yeah.
00:46:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:37
Speaker
So, but once in a while I do it and it just doesn't fit or it just didn't come out the way I want it to.
00:46:41
Speaker
So it's off to the recycling bin.
00:46:43
Speaker
But yeah, most of the time they work.
00:46:47
Speaker
That's cool.
00:46:48
Speaker
And then those instances you have like the mistake that turns into like a magical surprise.
00:46:53
Speaker
Happy accidents.
00:46:58
Speaker
That happens, I think, more so in very subtle micro moves in a painting as opposed to just bumping into a painting.
00:47:08
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:47:09
Speaker
Because I map out the paintings so much that those kind of happy accidents work in little things that I'm adding in or tweaking.
00:47:19
Speaker
Or if I go on a trip somewhere or I take a photo or something happens or I have a lightbulb moment, I think those are more of my happy accidents.
00:47:27
Speaker
Because I'm not really...
00:47:29
Speaker
I mean, I kind of wish I did and I used to.
00:47:32
Speaker
And when I used to, I kind of wish I did the work the way I do now, but I kind of wish I had more improvisation in there.
00:47:41
Speaker
You know, the grass is always greener.
00:47:42
Speaker
Of course.
00:47:43
Speaker
Well, it sounds like also the improvisation happens in, in, in the prep and the process more and kind of like the production of the paintings.
00:47:50
Speaker
Right.
00:47:51
Speaker
When you're out exploring or something like that.
00:47:54
Speaker
Yeah, and there's micro improvisations in the painting, but no one notices that.
00:47:59
Speaker
It's not like, you know, Frankenthaler where I'm pouring water in and like the bleed becomes, you know, something that I never could have predicted.
00:48:07
Speaker
It's not like that.
00:48:08
Speaker
It's kind of like, you know, a solo that's pretty mapped out, but you just tweak one note in it or something, you know, or you put the bell on the trumpet and it has a different feel, stuff like that.
00:48:21
Speaker
I want to also bring up the absence of the figure in your paintings.
00:48:27
Speaker
They're in there.
00:48:28
Speaker
They do occur.
00:48:29
Speaker
But even like there's some like stadium images and even the fans are like square pixels or something or alluded to.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:39
Speaker
A lot more...
00:48:41
Speaker
painstaking detail into architecture.
00:48:45
Speaker
And to go back to music, I heard somewhere that music was equated to memory, and then architecture is psychology.
00:48:53
Speaker
And there is a psychological bend, I think, to a lot of your imagery, especially
00:49:00
Speaker
when you have some some of the more night night shots where it's less light.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah, you're it's almost like a hitchhockey and think something is about to happen.
00:49:10
Speaker
You're just waiting around the corner or to Jericho or something.
00:49:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:17
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I mean, those images are, I've done those images where there's no figure and it's about, those are usually meant to be, you're the figure looking at the environment.
00:49:28
Speaker
So you have that relationship.
00:49:30
Speaker
There's a lot of silhouetted figures in certain imagery because I'm not necessarily interested in
00:49:34
Speaker
painting those people's personalities or faces.
00:49:37
Speaker
It's more just about this is a place where people are.
00:49:40
Speaker
And then, you know, I spent three years painting 333 portraits of people that was very much about every single person that I painted.
00:49:48
Speaker
So they got a portrait because it was about who they were, you know, and I so I think I I do all of it.
00:49:57
Speaker
It just depends on what what I'm interested in, what it calls for.
00:50:00
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:50:01
Speaker
So
00:50:03
Speaker
I'm less interested, like if I'm going to paint the figure or, you know, allude to the figure in an environment, I'm not so interested about who those people are.
00:50:16
Speaker
So that's why I never really paint like people's portraits within the landscape so much.
00:50:21
Speaker
So I think I just separated out, you know.
00:50:27
Speaker
But so portraiture is part of your work at certain junctures?
00:50:33
Speaker
like singular portraiture where you actually do some kind of like seated portrait or just from like a photograph or is it, it seems like you're, you're a lot more interested in space and architecture and atmosphere and ambience.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in that and those paintings.
00:50:54
Speaker
I mean, like I said, I spent three years painting just portraits of people that were mostly off the internet, just like famous people or people who were in my brain.
00:51:05
Speaker
But I've had like a show in Honcho Venison and Rock Center that I have was a combination of landscapes and
00:51:11
Speaker
And then people who are seen by certain people as positive and other people as negative.
00:51:16
Speaker
So they were big portraits and some were within like a landscape or within like a context.
00:51:22
Speaker
It wasn't just a portrait.
00:51:23
Speaker
So, I mean, I think I've done, I tend to gravitate more towards
00:51:30
Speaker
the environment talking about who we are as a people because it's more universal than just specific people.
00:51:37
Speaker
But I'm interested in that too.
00:51:38
Speaker
It's just, I don't, maybe the paintings that I've done that are landscaped without the figure are more out there or a little more prevalent as opposed to the portraits that I've done.
00:51:54
Speaker
And when does a project become an animation?
From Paintings to Animations
00:51:57
Speaker
Like where is that prompt?
00:52:03
Speaker
It depends.
00:52:04
Speaker
I mean, usually the animations are centered around a body of work.
00:52:10
Speaker
And like, because I've gotten to the point in my...
00:52:15
Speaker
art life to where I've been lucky enough to show and I just keep having shows.
00:52:20
Speaker
So I, I framework around shows usually or a project.
00:52:25
Speaker
So, um, the animations usually, uh, if so I did this show,
00:52:31
Speaker
called Techno Garden in Japan that was based on an area that I was living when I taught for in the summer there.
00:52:38
Speaker
And it was in an area called Chiba, which there was a business part.
00:52:43
Speaker
It was kind of like, it was called Techno Garden.
00:52:46
Speaker
It was like the Javits Center, like that style of like, you know,
00:52:50
Speaker
Convention centers in a place where a lot of business happened and I just found it really interesting the landscape of it did the title techno garden and in commuting around and researching those images.
00:53:03
Speaker
I started to think about an animation that would sort of move the viewer through these images so.
00:53:09
Speaker
Like that's an example of how I came to that specific animation.
00:53:12
Speaker
There's other ones that I've done for like music videos for people.
00:53:15
Speaker
Someone's like, let's collaborate.
00:53:18
Speaker
And then I make an animation based on that.
00:53:20
Speaker
Or if I have a show coming up in New York and I want the images to not just live in a 2D realm and I want some movement and sound, then I'll work on an animation with it.
00:53:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:53:31
Speaker
Depends.
00:53:32
Speaker
It's loose, you know?
00:53:33
Speaker
They just happen.
00:53:37
Speaker
And I guess, oh, you were going to say something there?
00:53:40
Speaker
I was going to change course a little bit because I was curious.
00:53:44
Speaker
You seem like a pretty busy person and you mentioned iCal to keep yourself organized.
00:53:52
Speaker
Do you also work with people and work with assistants sometimes on projects and things like that?
00:53:58
Speaker
Never in my studio.
00:54:00
Speaker
I'm the only person ever in my studio.
00:54:02
Speaker
Okay.
00:54:03
Speaker
Cause I can't have people making or touching my paintings.
00:54:07
Speaker
It's like a personal, like I just want to do it.
00:54:09
Speaker
Sure.
00:54:09
Speaker
But I do have people help make the stretchers, you know, which is in a way, you know, I get, I order stretchers nowadays because my hands are like falling apart.
00:54:19
Speaker
So, you know, that's an assistant in a way.
00:54:21
Speaker
And then when I collaborate, I'll collaborate with my friend, Ben, who's an amazing motion graphics guy.
00:54:26
Speaker
We collaborate on animation sometimes and,
00:54:29
Speaker
Or like I did an app and I worked with some people from Unity and collaborated with them.
00:54:33
Speaker
So they're not assistants, but there's collaboration.
00:54:39
Speaker
But I can't just have someone in my studio that I'm like, okay, do this, now do this.
00:54:43
Speaker
I can't do it.
00:54:45
Speaker
I don't want that responsibility.
00:54:46
Speaker
And my life is too busy.
00:54:48
Speaker
Like I'm doing too many things.
00:54:49
Speaker
They would be like, what are you doing, man?
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:52
Speaker
It'd be more work than it was worth or something like that.
00:54:55
Speaker
Definitely.
00:54:56
Speaker
And I think most artists just go to their studio every day.
00:55:00
Speaker
And I do go to the studio, but I also teach in Pennsylvania.
00:55:03
Speaker
I have a studio there and I'm like, you know, I've got a family and I'm like,
00:55:08
Speaker
I coach soccer, I'm working with a soccer club and I'm doing all this stuff and it would be so hard to just have someone.
00:55:15
Speaker
I just, I'm not interested in it.
00:55:18
Speaker
Plus I like having control and there are certain things like animation, animation,
00:55:25
Speaker
Or, you know, there's certain aspects of my creative life where I like to collaborate and I like to lose control or give control to
Collaborative Book Publishing
00:55:32
Speaker
someone else.
00:55:32
Speaker
And we work back and forth.
00:55:33
Speaker
Like I just did a book and the book was a collaborative effort with the publisher, with the editors, with the forward and all that.
00:55:41
Speaker
So it's, that's something that, thank God I didn't have, it wasn't just me.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:48
Speaker
I'm looking at it on your table back there and it's a thick book and I can't imagine doing that solo.
00:55:54
Speaker
But also that's like the nature of publications, right?
00:55:56
Speaker
Or the nature of records.
00:55:58
Speaker
They're just like, they kind of have to be collaborative or else somebody would lose their mind trying to do the whole thing themselves, especially if they have other responsibilities.
00:56:05
Speaker
Right.
00:56:06
Speaker
And I think I'm losing my mind a little as far as like making my paintings because I do all that stuff myself.
00:56:12
Speaker
But I love it.
00:56:13
Speaker
Like I don't want anyone touching it.
00:56:15
Speaker
I have one time and he's now a friend.
00:56:18
Speaker
I had a guy who graduated from Columbia from art and he wanted to, you know, come be an assistant or to intern at the studio.
00:56:26
Speaker
And he came in for a couple of weeks and
00:56:29
Speaker
I don't know, he was like, jessoing, and I was like, it's got to be like, he wasn't doing it the way I do it, which was fine in theory, but I was just like, no, you can't, don't.
00:56:39
Speaker
And then it was just like a hassle.
00:56:40
Speaker
It was just like, he was just hanging out there for a couple of weeks.
00:56:44
Speaker
So that ended.
00:56:45
Speaker
But I mean, I can't do it.
00:56:48
Speaker
Cool.
00:56:48
Speaker
Anybody listening, Brian is not looking for assistance or assistance.
00:56:51
Speaker
I
Social Media and Personal Boundaries
00:56:52
Speaker
feel bad because I get emails sometimes, you know, from students or people who graduate.
00:56:56
Speaker
Sure.
00:56:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:57
Speaker
You know, it's, I would love to, like, I think mentorship is really important.
00:57:03
Speaker
And I, you know, just in my life, the way I do it is through teaching.
00:57:09
Speaker
and through you know working with kids with soccer like getting them scholarship trying to get them college scholars things like that like that's my service you know and when it comes to me making paintings it's just me in the paintings leave me alone that's fair i don't think you have to feel guilty
00:57:26
Speaker
Not that you do, but it kind of sounded like you did.
00:57:30
Speaker
My other question was about social media.
00:57:32
Speaker
What's your relationship with social media these days?
00:57:35
Speaker
Has it changed as social media has changed?
00:57:40
Speaker
Has it changed as your kind of career trajectory has changed?
00:57:42
Speaker
I'm just kind of curious about that.
00:57:45
Speaker
Um, I guess it's changed a little in the sense that I use it a lot for booking guests on the podcast of like reaching out to people.
00:57:52
Speaker
It's become a nice way to sort of communicate directly and get to know people more directly through, you know, Instagram.
00:58:00
Speaker
I mean, people love responding to Instagram messages, right?
00:58:03
Speaker
Instead of like an email or something.
00:58:05
Speaker
And you can like see if they've read it.
00:58:07
Speaker
I mean, I've noticed that too.
00:58:08
Speaker
I think it's the generational.
00:58:10
Speaker
I think younger people just do that.
00:58:12
Speaker
You know, it's not even that they think about it that much.
00:58:15
Speaker
So that has been good.
00:58:18
Speaker
And, you know, to be totally honest, social media has always for me just been like a dump and go sort of thing.
00:58:25
Speaker
Like I don't hang out much on there.
00:58:27
Speaker
I just, I mean, I use it more as like promotional, you know, less like life stuff because I don't really want
00:58:35
Speaker
I mean, I do the podcast, which gets personal, I guess.
00:58:38
Speaker
I don't really want me, like, my life to be too much on social media broadcast.
00:58:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:46
Speaker
And it's a different platform, too.
00:58:47
Speaker
So, like, it's like this kind of, like, quickly consumed thing.
00:58:51
Speaker
So, like, to have kind of, like, personal...
00:58:54
Speaker
life details or stuff like that.
00:58:55
Speaker
It just like, it sits on there in a different way than it does if somebody's, you know, listening to a longer conversation.
00:59:01
Speaker
And I think you're, you're the person who is consuming it as a different type of consumer.
00:59:06
Speaker
Right.
00:59:06
Speaker
So they like, we'll take in the information in a different way, but, um,
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:59:12
Speaker
But yeah, I feel like I know a lot of our artists who are in the camp of wanting to include kind of like life stuff mixed in with their practice, but then there's others that it's really kind of like, let me put this up here and then I'm not going to open it or look at anything else.
00:59:27
Speaker
Uh, cause I'm not, I'm not necessarily like a user of, of Instagram or something.
00:59:33
Speaker
They think of themselves as more of kind of like, uh, just a content creator or something like that, but.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's basically, I mean, social media is about sharing stuff, right?
00:59:43
Speaker
It's about like showing people stuff, whatever it is, in whatever capacity.
00:59:47
Speaker
And some people are more sharing that or want to share stuff or put it out there more than others, you know?
00:59:53
Speaker
And I think that other people need that
00:59:55
Speaker
like a constant sort of reaction or, you know, they want to feel that engagement.
01:00:01
Speaker
There's different levels of it.
01:00:02
Speaker
And I understand it on all levels.
01:00:04
Speaker
Some people, you know, want nothing to do with it.
01:00:07
Speaker
You know, I get it.
01:00:08
Speaker
This is different strokes for different folks, I guess.
01:00:11
Speaker
Totally.
01:00:12
Speaker
But I think younger people are much less, you know, worried about, they just, it's just, they do it.
01:00:17
Speaker
I mean, when you have, like, I have a teenager, you know, they're not, well, they're not thinking about like pre-Instagram or something.
01:00:24
Speaker
And they don't really care about it as much.
01:00:26
Speaker
We're always reflecting on it.
01:00:27
Speaker
Like the generations of people who've lived through it are always like, wow, it's so different.
01:00:30
Speaker
And they're just like, whatever.
01:00:31
Speaker
It's just, you know, I'm just putting pictures up.
01:00:34
Speaker
No big deal.
01:00:35
Speaker
Right.
01:00:36
Speaker
Which is, which is true for them.
01:00:37
Speaker
And it's not as true for, for older folks.
01:00:40
Speaker
You know, it's, it's a totally different, totally different game.
01:00:43
Speaker
I left Facebook early on.
01:00:45
Speaker
We got divorced and it was because older people kept putting real heavy stuff on there constantly.
01:00:53
Speaker
And I couldn't take it.
01:00:54
Speaker
It was either complaining about politics or it was like very personal life events that God bless the people.
01:01:01
Speaker
But it's like, I don't,
01:01:03
Speaker
It's heavy.
01:01:03
Speaker
I mean, that's why I don't, my phone isn't, my phone number's not online so people can call me every time something goes wrong in their life and I have to hear, I mean, I feel for people, but like when you read that constant stream, it's rough.
01:01:16
Speaker
So I just- Yeah, humans aren't designed to have capacity for that many, those many deep, heavy relationships, right?
01:01:23
Speaker
I think we're only designed to have a few.
01:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
01:01:28
Speaker
It's like going into a bar and listening to everyone's conversation at the same time.
01:01:32
Speaker
Oh man, it was too much.
01:01:34
Speaker
I had to leave.
01:01:35
Speaker
I mean, Instagram's easier because you could just, they're pictures.
01:01:38
Speaker
I mean, if you're a visual person, you kind of like that because you can just kind of like look through visual things, but.
01:01:43
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:44
Speaker
I still love Instagram for sure.
01:01:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:47
Speaker
I mean, it's just, it's pretty minimal as far as what it is, you know, and like the TikToks and Snapchats and all that stuff, I'm like contractually not allowed to engage in those because I'm too old, but I get it.
01:02:00
Speaker
I understand why people like it.
01:02:02
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:03
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:03
Speaker
I don't know who I would be talking to if I was on those things anyways, because I don't think anyone would be listening.
01:02:08
Speaker
Omegle is kind of wild.
01:02:10
Speaker
I mean, I don't do it and I've never done it, but I know about it.
01:02:13
Speaker
And that seems like another level.
01:02:15
Speaker
Is that popular again?
01:02:19
Speaker
I don't know.
01:02:20
Speaker
It's been on for a long time.
01:02:22
Speaker
And I remember when it came out, I feel like it was maybe 10 years ago or something.
01:02:27
Speaker
Oh, I think it's resurfaced.
01:02:28
Speaker
Like I think young people use it.
01:02:31
Speaker
Okay.
01:02:32
Speaker
And they like connect with strangers and hang out on the internet with people they've never met.
01:02:37
Speaker
I don't know if it's hanging out.
01:02:38
Speaker
You just like flip through and like, you know, tell people they're ugly or they're pretty stupid.
01:02:44
Speaker
You know, I think it's really healthy.
01:02:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:48
Speaker
It's weird.
01:02:49
Speaker
I like to just like invite someone into your room on your phone for a couple of seconds.
01:02:53
Speaker
It was total strangers.
01:02:55
Speaker
Like if you thought like posting comments was an anonymous way to like, you know,
01:02:59
Speaker
crap post on people.
01:03:00
Speaker
I mean, just imagine like popping up and there's no, you know, there's no repercussions.
01:03:06
Speaker
You just say, there you are.
01:03:07
Speaker
You know, it's weird.
01:03:09
Speaker
What's the one that you heard recently where you just get a prompt to share whatever image right here and now?
01:03:17
Speaker
It's like, it's meant to be
01:03:19
Speaker
kind of like boring and about like your happenstance as opposed to like sharing what these beautiful pictures on, on Instagram.
01:03:28
Speaker
You know what I'm talking about?
01:03:30
Speaker
Is this the one where you like, uh, you randomly get a message to make a picture at a certain time and then it like swaps your picture with like five other people's.
01:03:36
Speaker
I can't remember what it's called.
01:03:38
Speaker
It's, it's interesting.
01:03:39
Speaker
It's kind of a cool, cool app.
01:03:42
Speaker
That is cool.
01:03:42
Speaker
It's like the whole like put this song to the latest photo no matter what it is sort of idea.
01:03:48
Speaker
Oh, right.
01:03:49
Speaker
Like a randomization of something.
01:03:52
Speaker
Like on NPR, they used to do the thing where they go around and say, what are you listening to now?
01:03:56
Speaker
And they'd ask somebody with headphones to share the music.
Rise of NFTs and Digital Art
01:04:00
Speaker
Anyway, coming up on the hour, we would be remiss to not mention NFTs because that's kind of the genesis of what Joe and I kind of came into this whole... I forgot about that.
01:04:12
Speaker
I know.
01:04:14
Speaker
We're starting to forget about that too.
01:04:16
Speaker
Did those come back?
01:04:16
Speaker
Is that like a needle?
01:04:18
Speaker
Are those back now?
01:04:20
Speaker
No, they're still not cool for a little while.
01:04:22
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:24
Speaker
I feel like they'll have another upward trend at some point.
01:04:26
Speaker
But yeah, it's been quiet lately.
01:04:28
Speaker
I feel like in the mainstream sphere, NFT people are still excited because they live in a different world than everybody else.
01:04:38
Speaker
But in terms of the mainstream, I feel like it's been out of the news for a long time now, which has actually been kind of nice, I think.
01:04:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:47
Speaker
But yeah, Alex, what's your NFT prompt?
01:04:50
Speaker
What's your question?
01:04:51
Speaker
Oh, no, I think having heard Brian talk about it, it seemed like you were coming around to it, but then now it's like out of the ether.
01:05:03
Speaker
But it's funny because you're so open to exploring different mediums like animation, music, books, stuff.
01:05:14
Speaker
It seemed like you have some, and I'm not saying that's good or bad, but the hesitancy towards NFTs, and neither Joe or I are complete evangelists.
01:05:25
Speaker
We just think it's an interesting medium, especially for digital art to kind of like share.
01:05:34
Speaker
But I just wanted to hear your take now as far as what you thought about it.
01:05:38
Speaker
Well, here's the question I have.
01:05:41
Speaker
I don't know that I ever really have an informed opinion.
01:05:45
Speaker
It's kind of like saying, like, how do you feel about digital art?
01:05:47
Speaker
Or how do you feel about anything?
01:05:49
Speaker
Like the all-encompassing.
01:05:53
Speaker
There's the hype train of NFTs that that's another thing to talk about, I guess.
01:05:57
Speaker
Like the reaction to it or whatever.
01:05:58
Speaker
But I've been like, I think what I've been, I don't know what I've said about it.
01:06:06
Speaker
I don't remember.
01:06:07
Speaker
But with NFTs, I've been making NFTs for a long time, non-digital NFTs.
01:06:13
Speaker
so obviously i agree with the idea of like i like the idea of like this thing that authenticates something you know what i mean because when i first started making video art which was animations
01:06:25
Speaker
And in the early 2000s, there was the art world and art didn't know how to do it yet.
01:06:33
Speaker
It didn't know what to do with this stuff.
01:06:36
Speaker
So, you know, and I made DVDs that were for sale and then there was like artwork that came with it and there was a file and, you know, it was like navigating how you collect or how someone owns something that is disseminated through digital media, like endlessly.
01:06:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:53
Speaker
So, I mean, NFTs, like the idea works in a way.
01:06:58
Speaker
I mean, an NFT, you could think of a painting as an NFT for the image that goes out into the world on websites and on Instagram and everything else.
01:07:05
Speaker
Like the painting is the real one or not real one.
01:07:08
Speaker
It's the one.
01:07:11
Speaker
So that's kind of like what an NFT is, if I'm not mistaken.
01:07:14
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:15
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:15
Speaker
Like anybody can go out and right click and save one of your images on the internet and have your painting as in digital form.
01:07:22
Speaker
Right.
01:07:22
Speaker
But yeah, I like that analogy of thinking of the painting itself as being the authenticator.
01:07:28
Speaker
So if you own it, you're the one who owns all these images that people can have for free, but they don't own it.
01:07:33
Speaker
They can't sell it, which is yeah, which is exactly what at least one mechanism for NFTs is.
01:07:38
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:41
Speaker
Isn't that what they are though?
01:07:42
Speaker
Non-fungible tokens?
01:07:43
Speaker
They're the idea that it's an authentication of something.
01:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's basically like a digital certificate of authenticity that everyone can see.
01:07:55
Speaker
Right.
01:07:57
Speaker
And it gives you the rights.
01:07:59
Speaker
It gives you the rights to send it to someone or sell it or anything else.
01:08:05
Speaker
Most of them, the actual NFT doesn't even have the digital file in it.
01:08:11
Speaker
The digital file is hosted elsewhere and the NFT points to it.
01:08:14
Speaker
So it's saying like, you own this thing over here.
01:08:20
Speaker
But...
01:08:20
Speaker
Kind of like if someone donates a painting to a museum.
01:08:23
Speaker
It's like you own that Picasso that's in the Louvre.
01:08:27
Speaker
And then you look at the little plaque and it says, courtesy of blah, blah, blah.
01:08:31
Speaker
Right.
01:08:31
Speaker
Same thing.
01:08:33
Speaker
I don't think the idea is controversial at all.
01:08:35
Speaker
I think what's controversial about it, when it becomes an issue where people want to talk about is when they start selling for gazillions of dollars.
01:08:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:42
Speaker
That's the only reason it's picked up any airplay in the masses.
01:08:47
Speaker
Once someone hears, oh, this digital thing sold for $3 million, they're like, what?
01:08:52
Speaker
And then it becomes a news story.
01:08:54
Speaker
But digital work has been selling for a lot of money on occasion anyway.
01:08:59
Speaker
So it's just the hype train of it.
01:09:02
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:09:02
Speaker
And then what happens, and this is when it gets annoying, and not just NFTs or anything, is
01:09:09
Speaker
Once the hype train starts or someone sells something for $6 million, everyone starts doing it.
01:09:15
Speaker
And it's like once Nirvana happened and they, Smells Like Teen Spirit was on MTV, everyone was playing grunge music.
01:09:25
Speaker
And there's a lot of bad versions of it, you know, because it's not, it wasn't like the true, and there's good, but I think that's where the pushback happens, I think.
01:09:38
Speaker
I mean, and you even see, I mean, for I would say like a majority of people when they hear that a painting sold for $5 million, they think it's ridiculous, right?
01:09:47
Speaker
It's just, but that one's been around for so long that they're like, all right, I guess that's just how this weird world works that we live in.
01:09:53
Speaker
But the digital one, I think, was one step too far for most people because they understand.
01:09:59
Speaker
It's just a vehicle they don't understand.
01:10:01
Speaker
Right.
01:10:01
Speaker
Right.
01:10:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:02
Speaker
So when it's digital, it becomes an easier thing to the dismissiveness of paintings is, you know.
01:10:09
Speaker
tried and true.
01:10:10
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:10:11
Speaker
Which is also a vehicle that most people don't understand, right?
01:10:14
Speaker
Like they understand what like paint on a canvas is, but they don't understand the entire ecosystem that supports this very specific type of paint on a canvas and like the infrastructures and distribution systems and everything else.
01:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, that misunderstanding is like painting is to abstraction as NFT is to digital art.
01:10:37
Speaker
You know, it's like the medium, like people don't understand Pollock and that that can, like my kid could do that.
01:10:43
Speaker
That doesn't, I don't get it.
01:10:45
Speaker
Why would that sell for $20 million?
01:10:46
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:10:48
Speaker
Whereas if it's a Da Vinci, they may have less of an issue with it because they just can't do it.
01:10:53
Speaker
They know that they can't do it.
01:10:55
Speaker
Right.
01:10:56
Speaker
Right.
01:10:56
Speaker
So in digital work, they're like, this can't be worth money.
01:10:59
Speaker
It's just made on a computer.
01:11:01
Speaker
Whereas if someone actually like, you know, made it from their hand or just some like,
01:11:07
Speaker
more tactile way that they can relate to the difficulty of it.
01:11:10
Speaker
That issue has been, you know, with us forever.
01:11:15
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:11:16
Speaker
The validity of something based on its medium or how it's made or what it is, you know,
01:11:23
Speaker
Like gold is worth a lot of money.
01:11:26
Speaker
Why?
01:11:26
Speaker
Like, you know, it could be plastic.
01:11:29
Speaker
It could be anything.
01:11:30
Speaker
You know, it's just, it's subjective.
01:11:32
Speaker
You can extend it to labor too.
01:11:34
Speaker
You know, like people who actually make stuff for their jobs usually make much less money than people who don't make anything at all, except like ideas and conversations and whatever and connections.
01:11:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:48
Speaker
It's like the lowest paying jobs are usually the, the actual stuff that gets made.
01:11:53
Speaker
Right.
01:11:54
Speaker
I have to step in and defend gold here for a second because it does have actual stardust in it that no other material on earth has.
01:12:04
Speaker
We're all made of stardust.
01:12:05
Speaker
Sorry.
01:12:08
Speaker
It's so shiny.
01:12:09
Speaker
Particular stardust.
01:12:10
Speaker
No, I completely agree with you as far as... Because Joe and I, we came into the NFT space because there was so much quote-unquote crap.
01:12:19
Speaker
And we came in with the idea that
01:12:21
Speaker
this is an interesting medium that can be utilized to transfer digital information.
01:12:28
Speaker
In particular, we're very attracted to long form videos, for instance.
01:12:33
Speaker
Something you see in museums and galleries and you typically don't have access to outside of those spaces.
01:12:41
Speaker
And one of the reasons is because of the economic model of not sharing that thing, because it's only worth money if the museum or gallery have access to it.
01:12:52
Speaker
How nice would it be to have access to, say, experimental videos of all sorts?
01:12:57
Speaker
So yeah, it's been an interesting ride, to say the least.
01:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like we've learned, I mean, we've also learned a lot because it's not like, you know, the people who have been working with blockchain art have been at it for almost 10 years now.
01:13:13
Speaker
And so I didn't really understand kind of like creative coding or like working with smart contracts to make interesting artworks that like function, you know, differently than just pointing to a digital file.
01:13:23
Speaker
They like actually do, they do stuff when you like have a generative artwork or something like that.
01:13:29
Speaker
And so there's also like some really interesting things
01:13:32
Speaker
artists that I've learned about and potential for that kind of like blockchain art.
01:13:35
Speaker
That's been fun to fun to learn about.
01:13:38
Speaker
Um, as we've, I don't know, as we've kind of like developed the, the gallery a little bit.
01:13:44
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:45
Speaker
No, I think that just like any new media, there's going to be some people who are amazing at it.
01:13:51
Speaker
And then there's going to be the sort of, you know, the bandwagoners who try to hop on there and, you know, and it's, you know, it over time, the stuff that's really engaging will stick around, you know,
01:14:05
Speaker
It's always like you got to go further, push it further and then come back to the center or something.
01:14:11
Speaker
Yeah,
AI's Role in the Future of Art
01:14:12
Speaker
absolutely.
01:14:12
Speaker
And it takes and it also takes some time for kind of like all of the apparati and things that could support thoughtful, challenging, good work to kind of exist in a way that can be sustainable for people who make that stuff, too.
01:14:28
Speaker
Right.
01:14:30
Speaker
Remember when DJs first became like artists and people were like, they're not playing anything.
01:14:37
Speaker
Right.
01:14:37
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:14:37
Speaker
And then it was like this big thing and there would be a couple who were huge and like, they were like, this is crazy.
01:14:43
Speaker
I was just talking too.
01:14:45
Speaker
Now it's just, it's part of the way we listen to music.
01:14:47
Speaker
It's not an issue.
01:14:48
Speaker
Yeah, I was just talking to an artist who uses AI prompts to make work because that's kind of a big trend right now is using these artificial intelligence generators to create artwork.
01:15:00
Speaker
And then some, I mean, a lot of them mint them as NFTs.
01:15:04
Speaker
And I have mixed feelings about that in general.
01:15:10
Speaker
But I was like, yeah, it's kind of like when DJs first started and people were like, they're not doing anything but remixing.
01:15:16
Speaker
And he was like, yeah, it's going to be like the best artists are the ones who can make the best prompts for the AI to make the artwork, which I think will have some grain of truth to it as we continue moving forward, especially with like, have you seen some of the images coming out of this WALL-E AI generator, the like newest?
01:15:37
Speaker
They just like let people start beta testing it.
01:15:40
Speaker
No, I haven't.
01:15:42
Speaker
They're crazy.
01:15:43
Speaker
They're just like... You can give these wild prompts and it'll spit out this like...
01:15:48
Speaker
very interesting digital series of digital images to give you kind of like a variety of, of stuff that is showing what you just told it to, to give you.
01:15:59
Speaker
And they're like, you, you wouldn't know that AI did it.
01:16:03
Speaker
I think there's some telltale things that start happening with, with AI where like things blend weirdly and you can kind of like notice it.
01:16:09
Speaker
But in general, I don't know.
01:16:11
Speaker
I feel like the ones that Carlos has been sending us have been kind of crazy.
01:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, they're all over the place and they're unexpected and they're fun.
01:16:19
Speaker
I could see AI being a big factor in future contemporary art.
01:16:26
Speaker
But as soon as everybody has access to these tools, we're going to be flooded with this garbage, right?
01:16:31
Speaker
And it's going to be hard.
01:16:33
Speaker
The stuff that was novel and interesting will be like, okay, great.
01:16:36
Speaker
What do we do now?
01:16:38
Speaker
And then something else will happen.
01:16:39
Speaker
I don't know what it's going to be, but...
Favorite Art Podcasts
01:16:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:16:42
Speaker
Everyone has a camera in their pocket, right?
01:16:44
Speaker
But that doesn't mean they're good photographers.
01:16:50
Speaker
That's true.
01:16:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:16:53
Speaker
Well, we've taken probably enough of your time, unless Joe has any other questions.
01:17:01
Speaker
I hit all my prompts.
01:17:02
Speaker
I feel like that was good.
01:17:04
Speaker
I did have just a quick, do you have a favorite podcast, art podcast?
01:17:08
Speaker
Yeah.
01:17:13
Speaker
Do I have a favorite art podcast?
01:17:15
Speaker
That you listen to?
01:17:20
Speaker
God, this is not... I don't listen to podcasts either.
01:17:30
Speaker
Let me look.
01:17:31
Speaker
Wait, what's my favorite?
01:17:32
Speaker
I listen to a lot of podcasts, but I don't know that... Do I listen to art podcasts?
01:17:38
Speaker
That's even better.
01:17:40
Speaker
That you don't listen to art podcasts.
01:17:42
Speaker
I mean, he's making one every week, right?
01:17:44
Speaker
So he's basically like, I don't know.
01:17:46
Speaker
It would be like doubling up on a thing that you already are engaging with so much.
01:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, I don't.
01:17:54
Speaker
Are there art podcasts?
01:17:58
Speaker
The only other one I know is Bad at Sports.
01:18:00
Speaker
That's the only one I've ever listened to.
01:18:02
Speaker
I mean, Bad at Sports, to be honest, I don't listen to it.
01:18:07
Speaker
I've heard it a few times.
01:18:09
Speaker
Like someone has sent me a specific artist or I've heard it a couple of times.
01:18:13
Speaker
It seemed when I listened to it in the past, it was good.
01:18:16
Speaker
It was very provincial.
01:18:18
Speaker
It felt very Chicago.
01:18:20
Speaker
It seems great.
01:18:22
Speaker
I just haven't really listened to it, to be honest.
01:18:25
Speaker
Yeah.
01:18:27
Speaker
I guess maybe the other question I would ask is, are you listening to any new music right now that you're really excited about?
Exploring New Music and Collaborations
01:18:32
Speaker
Because we haven't hit hit music too much.
01:18:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:18:38
Speaker
Yes, I am.
01:18:39
Speaker
I'm really in deep with a lot of new hip hop because my son bleeds into, you know, he's listened to all sorts of stuff.
01:18:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:18:49
Speaker
So I didn't know that much about cloud rap.
01:18:51
Speaker
So I've been in that mode for a while now of listening to a lot of different stuff.
01:18:55
Speaker
And, you know, with Spotify, you can just kind of go crazy.
01:19:00
Speaker
So I've been listening to a lot of that.
01:19:02
Speaker
And like I did a podcast recently with my friend Evan, who...
01:19:07
Speaker
is he records as evacs and he also uh one half of rat-a-tat and he does a lot of production of stuff so i really love his record been listening to that a lot and um
01:19:22
Speaker
And yeah, my friend Rishi, who wrote the foreword to the book, he does Song Exploder podcast, which is a podcast I listen to all the time.
01:19:32
Speaker
He records as the 1AM radio and I listen to him a lot.
01:19:37
Speaker
And also Michael Lovett, who does the intro to the podcast.
01:19:42
Speaker
He's in Metronomy, so I listen to a lot of Metronomy.
01:19:45
Speaker
And he has his own project called NASCA Lines, which is really great.
01:19:49
Speaker
And yeah, I've been listening.
01:19:51
Speaker
I mean, I listen to a lot of stuff, you know, like I'm all over the place.
01:19:56
Speaker
But yeah, I feel like I've been heavy into the cloud rap stuff, just like new hip hop, you know.
01:20:03
Speaker
I just can't help it.
01:20:05
Speaker
I've never heard the term, so I just looked it up.
01:20:06
Speaker
Now I'm interested to listen.
01:20:09
Speaker
Yeah, like there's a guy, Cochise, from Florida who just listened to a lot of that.
01:20:16
Speaker
It's good.
01:20:18
Speaker
I try to stay busy and exercise.
01:20:22
Speaker
So when exercising, it's really good music for that.
01:20:26
Speaker
In the studio, I'll go down memory lane and listen to stuff that's, you know, that fits the vibe of what I'm working on.
01:20:32
Speaker
But for the, you know, and working on some of the imagery from Punta Cana, I was listening to a lot of like reggaeton and, you know, lots of that stuff that put me in that place mentally.
01:20:45
Speaker
And then, you know, it'll move, you know.
01:20:48
Speaker
Did you hear a lot of stuff from the DR, like some of the trap hip hop and stuff?
01:20:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:56
Speaker
I have a good friend who, he used to live in New York.
01:21:00
Speaker
He's a chef, like a famous chef, and he lives on the West Coast, but he's Dominican.
01:21:04
Speaker
And he came to New York City when he was young.
01:21:07
Speaker
And he introduced me a long time ago, probably like 20 years ago or something too.
01:21:11
Speaker
I didn't really know bachata and reggaeton and all that stuff.
01:21:14
Speaker
And he introduced me to that.
01:21:16
Speaker
So now I kind of...
01:21:18
Speaker
will listen to, like, I feel like sometimes you have to just get in the room with a certain kind of music and then forever you'll just keep on top of it.
01:21:26
Speaker
Like, I got into Nigerian high life in college when I was a DJ and now, like, I'll still listen to Nigerian, like, contemporary Nigerian stuff.
01:21:35
Speaker
Just, you know, try to keep up with it.
01:21:37
Speaker
So...
Cultural Bonding through Music
01:21:38
Speaker
you know, that's why I think travel is so good because you, you, you bond, you get a relationship with a, with a culture and a music a lot of times and then it just stays with you.
01:21:46
Speaker
You keep your interest up.
01:21:48
Speaker
So I'm going to Portugal soon.
01:21:50
Speaker
I'm really excited because I've always loved, you know, Portuguese music.
01:21:53
Speaker
And so I'm excited to, to anchor that music with a place, you know, I mean, not Brazil, obviously, but, but in Portugal.
01:22:02
Speaker
That's a good point because as globalization kind of flattens everything out and starts making places and,
01:22:07
Speaker
places kind of look alike.
01:22:08
Speaker
I think music is still one of those standout things that kind of like is, can signify a difference in a good way as you travel.
01:22:19
Speaker
And it gets a lot of certain kinds of the music will get tinges of other stuff.
01:22:25
Speaker
So like you'll hear K-pop that has like, you know, a reggaeton vibe to it or like, you know, or like dub or something.
01:22:34
Speaker
And, you know, it's kind of cool when they bleed into each other in a way that humans do that too.
01:22:39
Speaker
You know, like they're moving and growing up in different countries, but they bring a little bit of where they're from.
01:22:45
Speaker
And I think that kind of...
01:22:47
Speaker
recipe is really cool for, for creativity.
01:22:51
Speaker
I mean, to hear like Bad Bunny and to have like reggaeton at the top, like,
01:22:57
Speaker
It's crazy for a Latino American to have like a Snoop Dogg guest rapping on a record to an album.
01:23:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's surreal, right?
01:23:10
Speaker
It's very strange.
01:23:11
Speaker
Well, imagine if you're Korean American and then this happened, you know?
01:23:15
Speaker
Right.
01:23:15
Speaker
It's just like, wait a minute.
01:23:18
Speaker
BTS is at the White House.
01:23:19
Speaker
You know, and like 10 years ago, it was like K-pop was like this underground, you know what I mean?
01:23:24
Speaker
It was more J-pop and it was just like, it was like riding second in Asian music in a way.
01:23:30
Speaker
And then now it's just like everywhere, you know?
01:23:35
Speaker
You're so good at sharing, like when you talk to artists and you have them
01:23:39
Speaker
you kind of like give them playlist almost like about a, what their kind of work reminds you of as far as music.
01:23:46
Speaker
And then prompts the music that you're kind of currently listening to.
01:23:51
Speaker
Do you, do you have like, I don't think I've seen anything like a Spotify list that you keep current or, cause I try to keep up with the music suggestions that you,
01:24:00
Speaker
you lay out in the show sometimes.
01:24:02
Speaker
I've actually made a couple playlists, a collaborative playlist with some of the artists and then some just based on the artists.
01:24:11
Speaker
So I could send you the link to it.
01:24:13
Speaker
Oh, cool.
01:24:14
Speaker
But yeah, they're out there under my Spotify.com.
01:24:19
Speaker
But yeah, there's like, you know, Ryan McGinnis and I did a collaborative one with like all sorts like punk and all the stuff we talked about.
01:24:28
Speaker
And then Rachel Boussier, we did one which had a lot of French, you know, piano and like a mixture of stuff that we talked about.
01:24:37
Speaker
So yeah, those are fun to do.
01:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine.
01:24:41
Speaker
It's usually with an artist that we talk about music and we get real specific and we're like, oh, we got to share that.
01:24:46
Speaker
And then I'll just, after the podcast, I'll just start making a Spotify playlist.
01:24:50
Speaker
It's a really cool way.
01:24:51
Speaker
It's like the old, you know what it is?
01:24:53
Speaker
It's a feeling of like a mixtape when you were young.
01:24:55
Speaker
Like it's that vibe.
01:24:57
Speaker
So, you know, I'd probably do it more often if I had time, to be honest.
01:25:04
Speaker
There's only so many hours in the day.
01:25:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:25:07
Speaker
Speaking of, thank you for giving us some of your time today.
01:25:12
Speaker
It's been awesome.
01:25:12
Speaker
No, no, it was fun.
01:25:13
Speaker
Thanks for having me on.
01:25:15
Speaker
Well, thank you so much.
01:25:16
Speaker
Thank you.
01:25:17
Speaker
It's been a long time coming and I appreciate you coming on and talking and shooting the shit.
01:25:24
Speaker
My pleasure.
01:25:25
Speaker
My pleasure.
01:25:26
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
01:25:27
Speaker
Thank you.
01:25:28
Speaker
All right.
01:25:28
Speaker
We'll see you.
Conclusion and Acknowledgments
01:25:34
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
01:25:44
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at lydianstaternyc on Instagram, and follow us at lydianstater on Twitter.
01:25:51
Speaker
Thanks to Brian Alford for taking the time to speak to us this week.
01:25:54
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about his work, visit his website at brianalford.net.
01:25:58
Speaker
Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
01:26:02
Speaker
His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
01:26:06
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
01:26:10
Speaker
I don't know what to do.
01:26:12
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
01:26:13
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
01:26:16
Speaker
I don't know what to do.
01:26:17
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
01:26:19
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.