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Arranging Tangerines Episode 44 - A Conversation with Kadir Kayserilioğlu
9 Plays25 days ago
In this episode, we talk with video artist Kadir Kayserilioğlu about his recent work The Walls of Heaven, currently featured in the exhibition Pulsar as part of Projected Ecologies at MUCA Campus in Mexico City. We discuss the accidental origins of the piece, ideas of creation and control through terrariums and Sea Monkeys, god complexes in both art and gaming, reenactment as a narrative device, YouTube aesthetics in video essays, and how humor, chance, and contradiction shape Kadir’s broader practice. Plus, we hear about his earlier work The Garden of Forgetting, and a glimpse into what might come next.
Kadir Kayserilioğlu is an artist mainly works on experimental film and video art. His works have been invovled in various exhibitions and screening programs in Turkey and abroad. His artistic practice is grounded in an idea of play that operates across a wide range of forms including video games and collaborative, performance-based videos, documentation and experimental processes. His works often rely on a combination of instructions and protocols on one hand, and collective improvisational processes and chance operations on the other. This often results in works that challenge conventional notions of authorship and authority with a dark humoristic style, and show irreverence towards traditional hierarchies between forms of high and popular culture, assembling high production value with home made and DIY esthetics.
His areas of investigation include the nature of social reality, posthumanism, speculative fiction, finiteness, conspiracy theories and micro-stories. He often engages in strategies of the absurd, repurposing mythological narratives as well as science fiction and horror tropes towards a critical take on contemporary political dynamics.
https://www.kadirkayserilioglu.com/
https://www.instagram.com/kadirkayserilioglu
https://vimeo.com/kadirkayserilioglu
https://muca.unam.mx/pulsar.html
https://www.lydianstater.co/projected-ecologies
https://www.elisagutierrezeriksen.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Arranging Tangerines'
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
Meet the Guest: Kadir Kaiser-Eliolu
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts for this episode are me, Joseph Wilcox, and Elisa Gutierrez Ericsson.
00:00:16
Speaker
Our guest this episode is Kadir Kaiser-Eliolu.
00:00:20
Speaker
Hi, everyone.
00:00:21
Speaker
How's it going?
00:00:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:26
Speaker
How are you?
00:00:29
Speaker
Good.
00:00:30
Speaker
We're happy to have you here today, Kadir.
00:00:33
Speaker
A little quick intro for Kadir.
Kadir's Current Projects in Mexico City
00:00:37
Speaker
He is currently in the exhibition in Mexico City that Elisa curated, Pulsar, and he's a part of the project Projected Ecologies, which is a collection of films that explore the idea of what happens when humans use anthropo... what's anthropo... anthropo... anthropo-medic thinking?
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, when they focus on like when it's like an anthropocentric view of things.
00:01:07
Speaker
Anthropocentric.
00:01:08
Speaker
Yes, that's what I was looking for.
00:01:10
Speaker
Welcome, Kadir.
00:01:12
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:12
Speaker
Thank you for inviting me for the show and this podcast.
00:01:17
Speaker
I'm very happy to be here.
00:01:17
Speaker
Nice to meet you as well.
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's great to meet Semi in real life here.
00:01:25
Speaker
And yeah, we were saying what a nice collection of videos are in the show.
00:01:31
Speaker
And Elisa and I did a lot of the kind of viewing, but there was five people who made the final selections, which is why I think the final selection of videos is such a strong collection of works that kind of like spans genres.
00:01:45
Speaker
And I think we'll probably talk about spanning genres a little bit
00:01:49
Speaker
in relation to your piece as well.
Creative Hiatus and Terrarium Inspiration
00:01:52
Speaker
But maybe just to start, could you give us like a little overview of the work in the show, The Walls of Heaven?
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:00
Speaker
It's kind of a strange work for me because I wasn't creating anything for two years.
00:02:05
Speaker
I generally very interested in video art and experimental films, but I wasn't doing anything.
00:02:13
Speaker
I was feeling the lack of creativity for a
00:02:16
Speaker
I don't know, like, yeah, two years, I guess, because I was moving, changing cities.
00:02:21
Speaker
And yeah, there were lots of things on my mind and my work life.
00:02:25
Speaker
But after two years, I accidentally, not accidentally, by chance, I wanted to create a terrarium, a new hobby of mine.
00:02:37
Speaker
For the people who doesn't know what terrarium is, I like to explain it very, very shortly, like,
00:02:41
Speaker
It's a glass jar.
00:02:43
Speaker
You can just create an ecosystem in there.
00:02:45
Speaker
You can just put some dirt in there or moss.
00:02:47
Speaker
And when you close it, there's a sustainable life happens inside.
00:02:54
Speaker
You can keep those mosses alive.
00:02:56
Speaker
And then I accidentally find out that, sorry, I find out that I accidentally bring some insects with me, which are some centerpiece.
00:03:07
Speaker
And then everything started from there.
00:03:09
Speaker
I started to observe that terrarium.
00:03:11
Speaker
I wanted to keep them alive.
00:03:12
Speaker
But at the same time, I was thinking about some many, many stuff like creating life in, I don't know, in general, you know, this God complex.
00:03:25
Speaker
creating things in our culture, observing and watching at the same time, security, control, many, many kinds of stuff, and other creating life forms that emerged in popular culture as well, like, you know, sea monkeys.
00:03:40
Speaker
And yeah, then I was like, why don't I write these things?
00:03:46
Speaker
And this work just, first it started as a text.
00:03:50
Speaker
I wanted to publish it as a text at first, but then I wanted to
00:03:56
Speaker
make it a film again because I'm interested and I'm doing video essays and I did the same thing.
00:04:03
Speaker
So, and then it happens shortly.
00:04:07
Speaker
I can explain this.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
And that's interesting to know that it was an essay first before it was a video piece, which I think makes sense after watching the film.
00:04:20
Speaker
And just for like some tech specs on the film, it's like an hour long, definitely experimental film that kind of like is a video diary slash essay, but also includes a
00:04:33
Speaker
kind of like research and video game footage and collected footage from the news.
Exploring 'The Walls of Heaven'
00:04:40
Speaker
And it kind of like, it is a little bit of a mishmash of a lot of different source material that kind of explains your adventures with terrariums and related materials.
00:04:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's true.
00:04:58
Speaker
It's like a combination of many things, technically and conceptually, I guess.
00:05:02
Speaker
Technically, just like you said, it's a combination of found footage, collected news, YouTube materials, or the footage that I take from the terrarium or from the video games, and some setups that I did.
00:05:18
Speaker
Like, I wake up and you see me as I'm waking up, like that kind of stuff too.
00:05:23
Speaker
Yeah, technically it's very hybrid, conceptually hybrid as well.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, I have a question that is maybe could be too intimate of a question so early, but it's one that Elisa and I had talked about, which was some of these kind of reenactments.
00:05:42
Speaker
Or were they reenactments?
00:05:43
Speaker
Or did you have kind of like footage that you just randomly recorded because you were recording?
00:05:48
Speaker
Or did you kind of go back?
00:05:49
Speaker
Because there was like the morning routine one.
00:05:51
Speaker
And I was like, I wonder if he redid this, like how much of it was real time?
00:05:55
Speaker
And how much of it did you have to do a little bit of reenactments?
00:05:58
Speaker
Well, yeah, the scenes where I was waking up, having my coffee and some scenes that I'm playing video games like The Sims or I'm watching the terrarium, they are reenactments.
00:06:11
Speaker
And I'm acting those moments.
00:06:15
Speaker
For example, when I was acting those moments, like when I was watching the terrarium very curiously on my study desk, the insects were already gone.
00:06:25
Speaker
It was a dead terrarium.
00:06:27
Speaker
I was re-enacting it.
00:06:29
Speaker
I was re-acting those moments.
00:06:31
Speaker
But, you know, the footages that I take where insects are alive, those spiders are alive, yeah, they were
00:06:37
Speaker
They were my personal collections.
00:06:38
Speaker
Then I picked them.
00:06:41
Speaker
And the timeline that you establish in the film, because you provide dates, right?
00:06:45
Speaker
Like this happened in January, February, March, April.
00:06:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:48
Speaker
Kind of like it's like around six months of like observing the terrarium and like continuing this.
00:06:56
Speaker
I don't know if it was a daily journal, but more of a journal thing.
00:06:59
Speaker
Those dates, those were real, I guess.
00:07:01
Speaker
They are real.
00:07:02
Speaker
They are real.
00:07:03
Speaker
Okay, great.
00:07:04
Speaker
That adds an even more fun layer to the work that some of them are reenactments.
00:07:10
Speaker
Because I feel like, I don't know, especially with the Sims kind of like the Sims stuff, you are reenacting life a little bit when you play Sims, right, in this virtual world.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so it's fun to hear that you were also reenacting some reenactments or whatever that means.
00:07:29
Speaker
Anyways, it's a nice layer to the work to know that.
00:07:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that it was really interesting what you were saying at the beginning about this God feeling and the power that it gives you to be able to create a world, even though we're talking a little bit about the behind the scenes, but the general narrative of the
00:07:52
Speaker
of the work of the film, it's about the power we have for creating life or even for maintaining life.
00:08:02
Speaker
There was an article that you shared with your submission that was really interesting that say that you question how the power to give life can quickly turn into the power of taking life.
Ethical Implications in Film Creation
00:08:15
Speaker
even in a simple and harmless simulation.
00:08:17
Speaker
That's a quote from the article.
00:08:20
Speaker
But I'm wondering if you can speak more about this fine line, which is also rooted in this idea of passivity, observation, action in action.
00:08:31
Speaker
How do you see that operating in the film?
00:08:35
Speaker
You're talking about that when you're creating life at the same time you're taking it.
00:08:39
Speaker
You're talking about this complex dilemma thing, right?
00:08:42
Speaker
I am, yes.
00:08:44
Speaker
Well, yeah, in the last parts of the film, I'm really explaining this thing and I'm talking about that.
00:08:50
Speaker
There's a little bit of drama in there, but these are my thoughts generally because I was establishing those ideas when I was thinking about sea monkeys more than the terrarium.
00:09:03
Speaker
Because sea monkeys got my attention way too early, many, many years ago.
00:09:08
Speaker
I first see them in a, I don't know, a grocery shop.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I was like, what the hell is this?
00:09:13
Speaker
Like, how could this happen?
00:09:14
Speaker
How could this be real?
00:09:15
Speaker
There are some real animals inside the small package.
00:09:18
Speaker
You can just bring them life, but they're going to die.
00:09:21
Speaker
And I was talking this to my friends and he told me that when I was a child, I was having them.
00:09:27
Speaker
He told me that when he was a child, he was having them.
00:09:31
Speaker
And just after a couple of weeks, they just flush them to the toilet because they were dead, you know?
00:09:38
Speaker
So I was thinking about that.
00:09:40
Speaker
I was thinking about it a lot.
00:09:41
Speaker
I was like, I need to do some work about that, but I couldn't find an idea.
00:09:46
Speaker
Then this terrarium thing happened.
00:09:48
Speaker
Then I want to combine these two things, terrarium and sea monkeys, because they are both, uh, sharing the same context in there.
00:09:57
Speaker
You're giving life, you're protecting life, but at the same time you're observing that, you're controlling that, you're doing it because your own pleasure, maybe, your own narcissistic desires, maybe.
00:10:10
Speaker
And it gets crystal clear in the case of sea monkeys because you're giving them a life, but if you give them a life, they're going to live a horrible life.
00:10:24
Speaker
like just inside the jar, they are very far from their natural habitat.
00:10:30
Speaker
So they're going to have an unproductive life and they're going to die very soon.
00:10:37
Speaker
But if you don't give them life, well,
00:10:40
Speaker
They're equal as that.
00:10:42
Speaker
They're never going to taste it.
00:10:44
Speaker
So it automatically gives you a narcissistic position, a godlike position.
00:10:48
Speaker
So I think that's a very interesting product.
00:10:51
Speaker
You don't really do that in video games because in the video games, yes, you create some characters, but they're not real.
00:10:59
Speaker
They're not alive.
00:10:59
Speaker
There are some systems, artificial systems.
00:11:02
Speaker
But if you perceive them in an ontological level, like in this new object-oriented ontology, well, you can maybe kind of find them similar to alive, you know.
Humor and Unconventional Work
00:11:15
Speaker
And yeah, there's a black mirror episode.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yes.
00:11:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:11:19
Speaker
That was an exact episode like that.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:22
Speaker
Which, which was mind, which messed my mind quite a bit.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:28
Speaker
No, no, no worries.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's a good point.
00:11:30
Speaker
I remember that episode and shocked me when I first watched that.
00:11:33
Speaker
And it's very related to that.
00:11:36
Speaker
What that show does in the best way, right, is makes you think about how things are related to our current reality, which which I also think is what your film did, at least for me.
00:11:48
Speaker
And I also I wanted to mention that I recently had a baby.
00:11:52
Speaker
So I have a daughter now and she's young.
00:11:54
Speaker
And so I was rewatching.
00:11:56
Speaker
your film yesterday to come up with some poignant thoughts and questions to ask.
00:12:02
Speaker
And next to the screen with your film was her on the baby monitor napping.
00:12:06
Speaker
And when she naps, she looks like a little shrimp.
00:12:09
Speaker
And so I had already started making these connections between this idea of instant life.
00:12:15
Speaker
And if you zoom out on the history of existence, life is pretty instant for everyone.
00:12:24
Speaker
And who gets to choose to exist?
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, nobody does.
00:12:27
Speaker
And so it was like a fun added layer watching the film and thinking about this.
00:12:33
Speaker
I don't think I would have perceived it the same way a year ago or whatever.
00:12:37
Speaker
Wow.
00:12:38
Speaker
Well, that's very interesting because, well, I did this film and I think about all of these subjects, all of these topics through sea monkeys.
00:12:50
Speaker
And I think about creating artificial life.
00:12:53
Speaker
I don't know.
00:12:53
Speaker
I think about it about my flowers.
00:12:56
Speaker
I think about for the centerpiece inside the terrarium or other box in there.
00:13:00
Speaker
But I never I think about it for my dog as well.
00:13:03
Speaker
I never think about it for a child.
00:13:08
Speaker
It's a very challenging topic to perceive this subjects.
00:13:14
Speaker
comparing to the existence of a child that you have.
00:13:18
Speaker
I think it's very challenging.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, as soon as they're born, you got to take care of them or else they will not make it.
00:13:24
Speaker
So I definitely drew some parallels, like early on, even with like the centipedes, but then it kept going and I was like, oh, yeah.
00:13:32
Speaker
But anyways, I digress.
00:13:34
Speaker
It's very interesting.
00:13:42
Speaker
No, go ahead.
00:13:43
Speaker
No, you go ahead.
00:13:44
Speaker
I thought I need to go ahead, but I think it's time for another question, I guess.
00:13:48
Speaker
Sorry.
00:13:49
Speaker
I have one.
00:13:50
Speaker
Unless you do, Elisa.
00:13:53
Speaker
I have a couple, but you go ahead.
00:13:55
Speaker
We're just like passing the ball.
00:13:56
Speaker
Mine's probably a quick one.
00:13:58
Speaker
But since we're talking about kind of like God mode and there's a Sims, I didn't realize that Sims could die.
00:14:06
Speaker
And if you were creative, you could find creative ways to kill them.
00:14:11
Speaker
And you mentioned that deleting the ladder in the pool was your favorite way when you were a kid.
00:14:15
Speaker
And I was just wondering if you knew why that was.
00:14:20
Speaker
Why it was a favorite way to kill them?
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, as opposed to not calling the fire department or removing the door when they're in the bathroom or whatever.
00:14:29
Speaker
Well, I never thought about it, but I think it was the easiest way that I can find in those times when I was playing.
00:14:39
Speaker
Because when you realize that you can actually kill them,
00:14:42
Speaker
It gives you a sadistic feeling.
00:14:44
Speaker
You can feed them, you can pet them, you can also kill them as well.
00:14:48
Speaker
And you don't need to feel guilty about that because they're not real.
00:14:50
Speaker
They're not actual humans.
00:14:52
Speaker
They don't have a soul.
00:14:53
Speaker
They don't hurt.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I think I just realized that, oh, if I delete this layer, if I delete this letter, yeah, they're going to drown.
00:15:01
Speaker
And it happened.
00:15:03
Speaker
And I think it gives me some kind of an interesting, uncanny joy.
00:15:09
Speaker
And I think that's why it became my favorites, because when a fire happens, yes, they die, but fire happens by chance.
00:15:21
Speaker
If they get old, if you don't really take care of them, I don't know, it's a long process, but if you just, you can just delete the layer instantly, you can just click one button and they die.
00:15:34
Speaker
like i think that's why i think it gives you a control it gives you a quick decision on their lives maybe that was that's why it was my favorite yeah i also thought it was maybe one of the more creative ones uh that i liked it more than kind of like building a wall immediately because you can't i mean like you can in games but like in real life you couldn't do that you couldn't pull a ladder from a pool uh if you if you wanted to in real life i don't know yeah anyways elisa your question
00:16:03
Speaker
Well, I'm going to tie it to this because I thought that one of the most like like the biggest questions that I had throughout the film was about these three characters that are included in the digital terrarium.
00:16:14
Speaker
Right.
00:16:15
Speaker
And their constant passivity throughout the film, which now that we're having this conversation, I'm thinking of them more as maybe depressed.
00:16:23
Speaker
I don't know.
00:16:24
Speaker
Like I'm thinking about this like situation where you put the Sims and they basically there's like nothing to do.
00:16:30
Speaker
So they're just like there.
00:16:32
Speaker
So that's kind of like one side of the comment more than a question.
00:16:37
Speaker
But when I was thinking about it yesterday, I thought that it was like an interesting contrast with the other example of violent Sims that you were presenting also in the film, but also with the insisting attempts at building worlds, right?
00:16:52
Speaker
But these three characters in seeing it like on the very opposite side of the depression made me also think about this like new word that it's been used a lot, which is rewilding,
Discussion on Digital Terrarium - Question
00:17:04
Speaker
right?
00:17:04
Speaker
That refers to this attempt to restore the ecosystem by reducing human intervention.
00:17:10
Speaker
So you have like this like very, very
00:17:12
Speaker
passive characters.
00:17:14
Speaker
So now I'm wondering, like, how were you like seeing these characters?
00:17:18
Speaker
Is it one side?
00:17:19
Speaker
Is it the other?
00:17:20
Speaker
Is it none?
00:17:21
Speaker
I don't know.
00:17:21
Speaker
I would love to hear more about those.
00:17:23
Speaker
Well, yeah, it's going to be a little bit hard for me to understand because not understand, sorry, it's hard to express this because that part where the replica of that terrarium
00:17:37
Speaker
that I create, you know, it's the, for me, it was a replica, another version of the terrarium.
00:17:43
Speaker
Right.
00:17:44
Speaker
There was a very similar stone at the shape of a mountain.
00:17:49
Speaker
And there were some three characters and everything that I talk about, my researchments and cases that I'm talking, they were happening in that world too.
00:17:59
Speaker
So I was talking about drones and drones were
00:18:03
Speaker
Emerging in that world, yeah, appearing.
00:18:05
Speaker
And I was talking about guns and they were seeing some guns in the TV as far as I know.
00:18:10
Speaker
So I was talking about some homunculus, you know, those artificial men in the alchemy, you know, and they were seeing them like they're watching them in a museum, in a glass cube or something like that.
00:18:21
Speaker
So for me, that was the expressive part.
00:18:24
Speaker
I didn't really put so much thought on it, but I did it with feelings, I guess.
00:18:28
Speaker
This is that moment, that world, those scenes,
00:18:32
Speaker
And the scenes where sims are killing each other, you know, they were more artistic, expressive sides of this film.
00:18:41
Speaker
Or that digital animation of the homunculus, maybe, you know, it was just circling in a white blank space.
00:18:48
Speaker
He was seeming, he was, he was helpless.
00:18:51
Speaker
He was just lying there.
00:18:52
Speaker
You know, that's in the mythology of Islam.
00:18:56
Speaker
He's a man created by itself.
00:19:00
Speaker
So it's kind of, you know,
00:19:02
Speaker
It has some dignity, but I was showing them as a very weak and mutated being, you know.
00:19:06
Speaker
So there were some expressive scenes.
00:19:08
Speaker
And the rest of the film was like my research.
00:19:14
Speaker
I was talking about them.
00:19:15
Speaker
It's more like a video diary.
00:19:16
Speaker
They were, for me, non-artistic sides of the film.
00:19:20
Speaker
They were more direct.
00:19:22
Speaker
But those scenes, you know, the replica of the terrarium, the one with the homunculus or the sims are killing each other, they were more...
00:19:29
Speaker
I don't know, artistic, I did them more in a feeling way.
00:19:34
Speaker
So I don't have a specific answer for that.
00:19:37
Speaker
But yes, they were seeming very passive.
00:19:42
Speaker
A friend told me that they're just walking in the water with their shoes on and they don't care.
00:19:49
Speaker
So they look weird.
00:19:50
Speaker
They look very passive, depressed.
00:19:53
Speaker
I use Twinmotion for those animation.
00:19:55
Speaker
Twinmotion is a software for architectures, architects, sorry.
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, these architectures, architectural presentations, right?
00:20:06
Speaker
In 3D formats.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:08
Speaker
People generally use Twinmotion for that.
00:20:10
Speaker
So you can create some 3D environments in there, but you can just, you can also add some animals and human models for, you know, for poles.
00:20:22
Speaker
to make those scenes look interactive with flow of people, you know.
00:20:26
Speaker
So technically they are very passive too.
00:20:29
Speaker
They just walk around.
00:20:30
Speaker
If you leave the Sims alone, they can do some stuff.
00:20:34
Speaker
They can just go and eat.
00:20:35
Speaker
They can just talk to each other.
00:20:37
Speaker
They live if you don't just intervene.
00:20:40
Speaker
But they are, those characters in the Twinmotion, they don't do anything.
00:20:43
Speaker
So for me, maybe I was feeling it that way.
00:20:46
Speaker
For me, they were really passive.
00:20:48
Speaker
They don't know what to do.
00:20:49
Speaker
They're born to be in that world.
00:20:52
Speaker
They don't have any other choice, just like sea monkeys.
Creative Process and Ethical Dilemmas
00:20:56
Speaker
Sea monkeys, they just stuck in a package.
00:20:59
Speaker
They don't have any choice on living or anything.
00:21:03
Speaker
Only choice is we have.
00:21:05
Speaker
Just like sea monkeys, these characters have no choice.
00:21:07
Speaker
I can just delete them.
00:21:09
Speaker
I can just keep them as their...
00:21:11
Speaker
I can just give them another pose.
00:21:13
Speaker
So they are helpless.
00:21:14
Speaker
They're very passive.
00:21:15
Speaker
So they are under control.
00:21:16
Speaker
They're under oppression all the time.
00:21:19
Speaker
I was feeling it that way.
00:21:20
Speaker
For me, they were metaphorical things.
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:26
Speaker
Um, I, uh, one of the things that, um, struck me about the film, uh, is how funny, like how much humor there is in kind of the, in your process and not like, uh, not like ha ha humor, but like, um, observational kind of like deadpan humor.
00:21:47
Speaker
specifically the reenactment of the invisible goldfish.
00:21:52
Speaker
I was laughing out loud during that part.
00:21:55
Speaker
Because it's also this connection to conceptual art I thought was wonderful in this product that this guy made.
00:22:03
Speaker
Um, and, and I think that kind of like satire and irony and humor has had a really good run in recent years in contemporary art, but that people are maybe looking for things that are a little more authentic now and that have a little more sincerity.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I thought that this film really did both of those really, really well.
00:22:22
Speaker
And that's what I was most drawn to was kind of like how generous you were with your thoughts.
00:22:29
Speaker
Uh, and, uh,
00:22:31
Speaker
not just your thoughts about the sea monkeys or your ethical dilemmas with these things, but also the construction of the narrative that you're putting together.
00:22:41
Speaker
You let us in on some of your decision making, both in terms of this experiment with terrariums and sea monkeys, but also with how to proceed with the essay that you were making for us as we were watching.
00:22:55
Speaker
So my question, I guess, is like this candidness and generousness with your thoughts, is that something that spans your practice and your other works?
00:23:06
Speaker
Or is this kind of like a new way of working in terms of your video art?
00:23:12
Speaker
You're talking about the humor in this work?
00:23:15
Speaker
I'm talking about your generosity with your thoughts, right?
00:23:22
Speaker
Like giving the audience a view of your mind in a way that I don't think you have to do, right?
00:23:30
Speaker
People can kind of like keep their thoughts to themselves.
00:23:33
Speaker
And you were really giving us a lot as an audience.
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:39
Speaker
where it felt like I was getting to know you as a person, not just an artist.
00:23:43
Speaker
And I was curious if that shows up in your other works as well, this kind of intimateness of you giving your thoughts and candidness.
00:23:54
Speaker
Well, yeah, I got the question now.
00:23:59
Speaker
Let me just first talk about humor and then the generosity of giving information, talking directly to the viewer, that stuff.
00:24:06
Speaker
But humor, I like humor.
00:24:08
Speaker
I like funny stuff.
00:24:09
Speaker
And I think when you're making some do-it-yourself work, it automatically has a strange vibe, like an absurd humorous vibe it will have.
00:24:27
Speaker
So my work is kind of a do-it-yourself work.
00:24:30
Speaker
So there is this kind of things.
00:24:32
Speaker
They don't have so much production.
00:24:34
Speaker
And yes, it can give some chances
00:24:38
Speaker
to some absurd moments, like those reenactments maybe.
00:24:44
Speaker
And generally, I like humor.
00:24:47
Speaker
I like absurd stuff.
00:24:48
Speaker
I like absurd humor so much.
00:24:50
Speaker
So I think it reflects on my works.
00:24:52
Speaker
And this kind of generosity about giving the information, talking eye to eye viewer, well, it has some different aspects, I guess, because first of all, I'm an academician as well, and I like my work.
00:25:07
Speaker
I like my job.
00:25:08
Speaker
I like talking.
00:25:09
Speaker
I like talking to students.
00:25:11
Speaker
I like discussing with students.
00:25:12
Speaker
I like giving information, sharing information, listening to some information.
00:25:16
Speaker
So talking is a part of my work, a huge part of my work.
00:25:21
Speaker
And I think it also reflects on my, these video essays as well.
00:25:27
Speaker
They are half semi-academic works too.
00:25:32
Speaker
They have their research and
00:25:37
Speaker
I was, my last work after this one, before this one was also a video essay, the past Xenelli implant was a kind of a video essay as well.
00:25:47
Speaker
And I was talking in that video too, I was sharing information as well, but not like this.
00:25:52
Speaker
This is more than the other one.
00:25:55
Speaker
So since my job takes a huge part of my life and my job as a huge part of talking in it,
00:26:05
Speaker
I think it happens in a natural way like that.
00:26:09
Speaker
So for me, it's not a big surprise that I'm choosing this medium.
00:26:14
Speaker
And there's another small aspect of this thing, of this case, is that
00:26:20
Speaker
I also really like stumbling in YouTube as well.
00:26:24
Speaker
I like watching YouTube.
00:26:26
Speaker
I like watching YouTube videos.
00:26:29
Speaker
And you know, there was an old phrase in YouTube like losing yourself in the right side of YouTube or
00:26:37
Speaker
the weird side of youtube you know you just lost in the videos you just watch one another after another and you just lost and stumble upon some weird videos so i like this way of surfing the internet i like this way of walking inside those digital spaces so i think uh i perceived it's
00:27:00
Speaker
aesthetics as well.
00:27:02
Speaker
So in this work, I'm also using some YouTube aesthetics too.
00:27:06
Speaker
For example, when I'm talking about Parcelcius, you know, the alchemists who are talking about the homunculus, at the right side of my screen, there was the image of Parcelcius appears.
00:27:20
Speaker
And it's just like slide from the outside of the corner.
00:27:23
Speaker
So this is basically YouTube aesthetics, presentation aesthetics, let's just say.
00:27:28
Speaker
or found footage or YouTube materials, combining them, editing them.
00:27:33
Speaker
This is also another aesthetic, another cyber aesthetic, let's just say, internet aesthetic.
00:27:38
Speaker
So an internet aesthetics, YouTube aesthetics, well, there's a person in the camera and he talks, he or she talks all the time.
00:27:47
Speaker
It's more interactive.
00:27:48
Speaker
It's more, it has its own closeness, closeness and generosity.
00:27:54
Speaker
So the combination of all of these things, I guess,
00:27:59
Speaker
is the language of this work I have.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for that answer.
00:28:07
Speaker
I think finding out that you work with students makes a lot of sense in terms of the way in which you kind of approach the camera like you're talking to the audience.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:21
Speaker
And tied to your practice and how you built your practice, I'm wondering if you could talk more about this thing of your practice being chance-based,
The Role of Chance in Kadir's Practice
00:28:33
Speaker
right?
00:28:33
Speaker
Which interests me a lot.
00:28:36
Speaker
I mean, obviously we see this in this video work, but I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more.
00:28:43
Speaker
Is there like some sort of structure that you still apply for that chance to happen?
00:28:48
Speaker
Or is it more just like a constant what if that just forms part of your daily life as an artist?
00:28:55
Speaker
If you could talk more about that.
00:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, well, chance is a big factor in my works.
00:29:01
Speaker
In my daily life, chance, well, I'm not a very spiritual person, so I don't put attention on to chance or some, I don't know, spontaneity or some weird cases.
00:29:10
Speaker
But speaking of this work, there was a weird thing happened.
00:29:14
Speaker
When I was observing those terrarium, I was writing the text of this work, and I was like, should I order a Sea Monkey's package or not?
00:29:22
Speaker
Because I want to observe them as well.
00:29:23
Speaker
I want to include this work.
00:29:25
Speaker
include sea monkeys in this work as well.
00:29:28
Speaker
So first I need to observe it too.
00:29:29
Speaker
But I was just having a dilemma, an ethical dilemma.
00:29:32
Speaker
Should I buy it or not?
00:29:34
Speaker
Like if I pay for that, I'm going to support something I'm not going to do.
00:29:40
Speaker
I'm not ethically support.
00:29:43
Speaker
But during those times, I just went to a store.
00:29:47
Speaker
for totally different reason, then I find an old Sea Monkeys package, which was the thing that you see in the film.
00:29:56
Speaker
And it was not a toy shop, you know, I just seen that.
00:30:01
Speaker
And they were just keeping that for some, I don't know, for the people who have some interests for a nostalgic thing, maybe.
00:30:08
Speaker
And when I saw that, I was shocked by like, this cannot happening.
00:30:12
Speaker
So I need to buy that.
00:30:13
Speaker
So this was a huge chance factor in this film, I guess.
00:30:17
Speaker
I was thinking about that.
00:30:18
Speaker
I was studying on that and it's a rare product and I seen it on a totally random way.
00:30:25
Speaker
And,
00:30:26
Speaker
The other chance factors in this film, like, you know, they're not chance, actually.
00:30:31
Speaker
It was always that those centipedes were going to die, you know, so it's not chance.
00:30:37
Speaker
It's a very natural way.
00:30:39
Speaker
It was going to be.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah, the chance is the is the win, right?
00:30:45
Speaker
But definitely, definitely going to happen for sure.
00:30:48
Speaker
But generally as a concept, chance as a concept, yes, conceptually or philosophically, politically maybe, I'm more interested in that concept.
00:31:01
Speaker
Chance, you know, because chance means spontaneity, chance means disorder, chance means surprise, chance means non-linearity, chance means, I don't know, chance means
00:31:13
Speaker
everything rather than control and huge structures, social structures, you know.
00:31:19
Speaker
Yeah, chance means possibilities, right?
00:31:21
Speaker
Possibilities, yeah.
00:31:23
Speaker
Versus limiting possibilities.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:31:28
Speaker
I had a question about, so in the film, and I think it showed up a couple times, but you were talking about kind of like the shrimp aren't being, like they don't choose to live, or the kind of like, I can't remember what the other kinds of shrimp that they found at Burning Man.
00:31:49
Speaker
that kind of like showed up when it rained.
00:31:51
Speaker
The tadpoles, right?
00:31:52
Speaker
Tadpoles, yeah.
00:31:53
Speaker
Tadpoles, okay, yes.
00:31:56
Speaker
Those things are wild.
00:31:57
Speaker
Those are very cool.
00:31:59
Speaker
And you were kind of like speculating what the future might look like for that species.
00:32:04
Speaker
And if humans no longer exist, you know, they've survived mass extinctions for millennia.
00:32:13
Speaker
And so this kind of like species will probably still be there even if us as humans are not.
00:32:19
Speaker
And I kept thinking about the individual shrimp and whether they get to live or not.
00:32:24
Speaker
Because oftentimes, people will talk about humanity and like, oh, we're not going to make it.
00:32:29
Speaker
And some people are like, well, maybe that's better for the world or maybe not.
00:32:34
Speaker
But there's individual people in that conversation.
00:32:37
Speaker
And in your packet of instant life shrimp, there's also individual shrimp that are not being animated and maybe never will be.
00:32:46
Speaker
So I'm wondering how the individual plays into this conversation you're having with yourself about who gets to choose who lives and how it happens.
00:32:57
Speaker
I don't know.
00:32:58
Speaker
I kept thinking about the individual shrimps that weren't getting chosen to exist.
00:33:06
Speaker
Sounds like an interesting question, but I'm not really sure I get that.
00:33:10
Speaker
Individual shrimps, you mean?
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, like, so each packet comes with, you know, 200 shrimp or 100 shrimp or whatever.
00:33:17
Speaker
And you were kind of thinking about, well, if I don't animate them, their species will probably still exist later.
00:33:25
Speaker
But those ones that are still inside your packet never got to.
00:33:29
Speaker
And so I'm just curious about this idea of individual versus kind of like species.
00:33:37
Speaker
And if one is more important than the other or how they kind of...
00:33:43
Speaker
inform your thoughts about this experiment that you did well uh i think we are speculating now so uh i'm still not sure if i get it right but uh i will try for example like if humans disappear if this is our time and we have it and uh
00:34:09
Speaker
Those species, those tadpole shrimps, they continue, they continue, they resume on, uh, existing and they evolve.
00:34:19
Speaker
But some other shrimps that I keep inside the package, they just stay there.
00:34:24
Speaker
So these were the ones that you're talking like individual shrimps.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:29
Speaker
So they are isolated for all of that was happening outside.
00:34:33
Speaker
So for any chance, if rain happens, heavy rain happens and they just mix with the water and if they just animate, so what will going to happen to them?
00:34:44
Speaker
You asked, right?
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:47
Speaker
And I think maybe I'm not thinking of those specific ones, although I'm using them as my example.
00:34:54
Speaker
But I guess maybe it's a bad question.
00:34:57
Speaker
Is it a bad question, Elisa?
00:34:58
Speaker
No, I think it's an interesting question.
00:35:00
Speaker
I have a couple of thoughts about that, too.
00:35:03
Speaker
I think it's a very interesting question.
00:35:07
Speaker
Well, it's a little bit.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yeah, I guess so.
00:35:11
Speaker
Well, like you're talking about preserving them from the outside world.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:16
Speaker
And aren't we like you making the decision to animate them is chance.
00:35:22
Speaker
Right.
00:35:22
Speaker
I mean, if we're thinking of the kind of like this kind of like entire ecosystem that we live in, it's all chance.
00:35:28
Speaker
No, I think I think here it goes more into the gut like feeling because I feel like like.
00:35:33
Speaker
And like if you follow the instructions of the sea monkeys, right, like you have to do this, put the water, you you like clean the water, right?
00:35:42
Speaker
Like there's like this cleaning of the water that has to happen and then you put them in and then they grow and live and then you feed them.
00:35:47
Speaker
Right.
00:35:48
Speaker
But what is it that you actually feed them?
00:35:50
Speaker
You know, like, what is this thing that you're putting in the water?
00:35:52
Speaker
Why did the tadpole shrimps didn't need like a specific type of water?
00:35:59
Speaker
You know, like, why were they thriving and why would the sea monkeys were not thriving?
00:36:03
Speaker
Right.
00:36:04
Speaker
Like, what is it about like...
00:36:06
Speaker
Is it really chance or is it the conditions?
00:36:08
Speaker
Are conditions also chance?
00:36:10
Speaker
I feel like there's all these other questions.
00:36:13
Speaker
If you still have your sea monkeys in the box in your house, what happens if those sea monkeys, you kind of drop them where their natural environment would be?
00:36:23
Speaker
Would they thrive and would they continue living?
00:36:25
Speaker
Not in this enclosed environment where you're ensuring their deaths, but just kind of releasing them into the world and living into the world.
00:36:33
Speaker
And then a follow-up question would be how...
00:36:36
Speaker
are they going back to this original environment is actually not affecting the environment in itself?
00:36:43
Speaker
Like, are they still supposed to be existing, right?
00:36:46
Speaker
This like living fossils?
00:36:49
Speaker
Or is it just, you know, like, I mean, obviously, maybe I need to do some research about that.
00:36:54
Speaker
But I think those are like interesting questions that come with it.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker
First of all, the first thing that comes to my mind right now is that choosing which shrimp species is going to survive or the other one is going to be suspended or straight, maybe.
00:37:13
Speaker
Well, first of all, they also sell tadpole shrimps as well.
00:37:20
Speaker
So you can also buy them.
00:37:22
Speaker
There are some subspecies of tadpoles.
00:37:24
Speaker
There are some colored versions of those.
00:37:27
Speaker
So you can just buy.
00:37:29
Speaker
any shrimp you want, they're all sold by different companies right now.
00:37:34
Speaker
So their whole existence are objectified right now.
00:37:40
Speaker
They are meta today.
00:37:42
Speaker
So, and for me, my decision on how to end this conversation on their lives, how to end this dilemma, it happened when I first exhibited this movie,
00:37:59
Speaker
solo exhibition.
00:38:00
Speaker
I also displayed the sea monkeys package and the terrarium itself, like, like a structure, maybe like a sculpture and people were there to observe the terrarium.
00:38:12
Speaker
Oh, this wasn't the,
00:38:18
Speaker
the actual sea monkeys packaging the film so when the exhibition ends the gallery space belonged to my friends I was like okay the terrarium and this package is yours it's not my responsibility anymore so I delivered that to other people I wanted to be happened that way I didn't want to keep them forever I didn't want to you know present them as an object as an art object in my room so I wanted to leave this to other people's judgment I guess I don't know if it's a
00:38:47
Speaker
fair thing to do, but I think the whole general, one of the whole concepts of this movie and the lessons I learned through it, that there's always some contradiction in your actions.
00:39:02
Speaker
Like you can just criticize the narcissistic position of observing, but at the same time, you can just, you know, watch them and feel some joy about that.
00:39:14
Speaker
So we have full of contradictions.
00:39:18
Speaker
So inaction is still inaction, right?
00:39:21
Speaker
It's still like choosing to do nothing or choosing to do something is still choosing.
00:39:25
Speaker
Right.
00:39:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:26
Speaker
It means confusion.
00:39:27
Speaker
It means, you know, disability in your position.
00:39:30
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
It's kind of a nice way to to get rid of your responsibility over deciding the fate.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
True.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, maybe this is a good spot to ask if you're working on anything new, what's coming up for you?
00:39:51
Speaker
What's been on your mind as of late?
00:39:54
Speaker
Well, I'm not really sure.
00:39:56
Speaker
I'm writing an article, an academic article in these days, so I only focused on that.
00:40:02
Speaker
It's a job that I have to do.
00:40:06
Speaker
But artistically, I'm not really sure what will happen next.
Future Themes: Liminality and Social Constructs
00:40:12
Speaker
There are some strange topics on my mind, but I need some more time to combine them, get some message through them.
00:40:22
Speaker
Maybe it's going to be a process like in this film.
00:40:25
Speaker
Maybe it's going to take a span of time to research everything and document everything.
00:40:31
Speaker
Well, there are some certain topics on my mind for sure.
00:40:34
Speaker
For like one of them is I had a surgery six months ago, which was kind of a kind of a serious one.
00:40:42
Speaker
And I felt the fear of that in that moment in those times.
00:40:46
Speaker
And I thought I thought about the social space.
00:40:52
Speaker
social concepts of a hospital, staying in a hospital, that liminal space, that liminalty in the hospital room, you know, physically and mentally and culturally, because when you're hospitalized, when you're in your recovery area, you are a social person at the same time.
00:41:13
Speaker
You know, there are some wars in the world.
00:41:15
Speaker
You want to know what's going on, but at the same time, you don't care any of them.
00:41:19
Speaker
You only think about yourself.
00:41:21
Speaker
You're isolated in one room, but everything's around you belongs to a social construct.
00:41:27
Speaker
So you are rather an outside person or just a person inside the society.
00:41:33
Speaker
You're somewhere in between all the time.
00:41:35
Speaker
You're between life and death.
00:41:39
Speaker
You're between the public and isolation.
00:41:41
Speaker
So yes, this liminality of hospital rooms really interested me in those times.
00:41:46
Speaker
Maybe I will
00:41:48
Speaker
think about that, study on that, and I will do something about that.
00:41:52
Speaker
I'm not quite sure.
00:41:55
Speaker
Sounds very interesting.
00:41:57
Speaker
And if it's that topic or if it's something else, I look forward to your next film.
00:42:04
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:42:06
Speaker
I hope I will do that.
00:42:07
Speaker
And you watch it too, I guess.
00:42:12
Speaker
Any final thoughts, Alisa?
00:42:14
Speaker
I had a last question that kind of like remain in the back of my notes.
00:42:19
Speaker
If we have time, we already went kind of like to the future, but I would also love to hear about this other work that you did and that you sort of like hint at it in the video, The Garden of Forgetting.
Exploring 'The Garden of Forgetting'
00:42:35
Speaker
The Garden of Forgetting.
00:42:38
Speaker
What is that about?
00:42:38
Speaker
It looks beautiful, by the way.
00:42:41
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:42:42
Speaker
It was not a video essay.
00:42:45
Speaker
It was more like a video art, a short film.
00:42:48
Speaker
There was a cyber, a digital garden in the space.
00:42:53
Speaker
It was just a fragment of a piece of a garden, but it's very outgrown.
00:42:57
Speaker
There were no humans inside.
00:42:59
Speaker
There were just some plants, bugs and frogs.
00:43:02
Speaker
So the nature overthrown the man in there.
00:43:05
Speaker
garden.
00:43:06
Speaker
It's like a forgotten garden, you know, and a garden of forget garden of forgetting is a book.
00:43:13
Speaker
Actually the name coming from a book, a Turkish writer called Letife Tekin.
00:43:17
Speaker
I really liked that book.
00:43:18
Speaker
The book is about building a utopia, an autonomous place, a collective, building a collective in there.
00:43:26
Speaker
But true times there are some problems emerging, some personal problems emerging in the, in that collective.
00:43:32
Speaker
And
00:43:33
Speaker
people were unable to make it run.
00:43:37
Speaker
So I was thinking about that book and it inspired me a lot.
00:43:42
Speaker
And in that video, there was a digital garden in space, in the nothingness, basically.
00:43:50
Speaker
And the camera was just walking around in the garden.
00:43:54
Speaker
You were seeing some aspects of the garden, some flowers, you know, lake, fishes, frogs, bugs, birds, maybe.
00:44:03
Speaker
And you were always seeing two people are playing the voices of two people, two persons, and they were playing a game called, what's that game called?
00:44:15
Speaker
First you ask a question like pizza or hamburger, which is your favorite.
00:44:19
Speaker
And you ask her and then you ask another question.
00:44:22
Speaker
So it's a question and answering game, like a game of meeting, a game of flirting.
00:44:27
Speaker
Maybe I was doing that with my girlfriend and those people are me and my girlfriend.
00:44:32
Speaker
We were playing that game and at the same time we were recording our voices.
00:44:35
Speaker
So there were some two anonymous person were meeting and playing that game.
00:44:39
Speaker
So you were hearing those voices when you were just walking around in that digital garden.
00:44:44
Speaker
So like those two figures are long gone and you're hearing the voice of their ghosts maybe.
00:44:49
Speaker
So the work is more about like, you know, a garden itself.
00:44:56
Speaker
Like what is a garden?
00:44:58
Speaker
It is a private property for sure, but at the same time, there are so many creatures living in there.
00:45:02
Speaker
So it's yours, but at the same time, it belongs to them as well.
00:45:06
Speaker
What's private property?
00:45:07
Speaker
What is general life?
00:45:10
Speaker
What's your relationship with life and that?
00:45:12
Speaker
What is meeting inside of a very inhumane environment?
00:45:16
Speaker
What's the meaning of meeting in a place where very stranger to you?
00:45:22
Speaker
So these kinds of stuff.
00:45:25
Speaker
Hmm.
00:45:25
Speaker
That sounds really interesting.
00:45:27
Speaker
Is there somewhere besides your website where people can see your films like to see any of this?
00:45:33
Speaker
Well,
00:45:35
Speaker
Not yet.
00:45:38
Speaker
Maybe I will release them online one day because I don't sell them.
00:45:41
Speaker
So maybe I will do them online, but I feel very lazy to update my personal website in these days.
00:45:48
Speaker
If anyone is interested, they can just tell me, they can just email me or they can just follow me on Instagram and text me.
00:45:56
Speaker
I can just directly send the links of my words.
00:46:00
Speaker
Amazing.
00:46:01
Speaker
Thanks, Kadir.
00:46:03
Speaker
Cool.
00:46:04
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:04
Speaker
Thank you so much, Kadir.
00:46:06
Speaker
It was a pleasure speaking with you.
00:46:07
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:46:08
Speaker
Thanks for inviting me.
00:46:09
Speaker
It was a pleasure as well.
00:46:10
Speaker
It was fun.
00:46:12
Speaker
Thanks for everything.
00:46:17
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City dedicated to showcasing emerging artists with a focus on ephemeral, conceptual, and time-based works.
00:46:30
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co and lydianstaternyc on Instagram.
00:46:35
Speaker
Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
00:46:39
Speaker
His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
00:46:43
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.