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Arranging Tangerines Episode 37 - A Conversation with Elisa Gutiérrez Eriksen
6 Plays2 years ago
This week, we have Elisa Gutiérrez Eriksen on the show to talk about her curatorial practice including the current exhibition at Lydian Stater “Neither Here Nor There,” her experience working as a cultural specialist in Mexico, how she carved a path to the visual arts, NFTs as a medium rather than a container, her recent exhibitions in New York “Common Frequencies” and “Subversive Kin,” the merits of artists choosing a curator instead vice versa, her brief art practice, virtual reality as an expansion, and her collective approach to curation.
Elisa Gutiérrez Eriksen is a Mexican, Brooklyn based Curator and Arts and cultural producer who has collaborated with artists and institutions to produce and curate art pieces, exhibits, festivals and cultural events. As Cultural Specialist at the UNESCO Field Office in Mexico she developed projects and curated exhibitions concerning the relationship between culture and migration, audiovisual heritage, and the environment. Prior to that, she was Head of Exhibitions of the Alas y Raices program at the Ministry of Culture in Mexico. Elisa has also collaborated with the International Human Rights Art Festival in New York and the International Contemporary Animation Film Festival ANIMASIVO, among others. Most recently, she served as Programs Manager and Curator at the NARS Foundation while also developing independent projects; among them Subversive Kin: The Act of Turning Over, presented at The Clemente Soto Velez Cultural Center in NY, and Common Frequencies, at BioBAT Art Space in Brooklyn, NY. She currently pursues her graduate studies at Hunter College and works as an independent curator.
Links;
𝘕𝘦𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘏𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘕𝘰𝘳 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 Panel Discussion with @huidixiang, @lau_wai_lau, and @egeriksen
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Arranging Tangerines
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
00:00:05
Speaker
Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
00:00:13
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:15
Speaker
I know what to say.
00:00:17
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:00:20
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:21
Speaker
I know what to say.
00:00:22
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
Meet Elisa Gutierrez Erickson
00:00:34
Speaker
This week's guest is Elisa Gutierrez Erickson.
00:00:38
Speaker
Elisa Gutierrez Erickson is a Mexican-Brooklyn-based curator and arts and cultural producer who has collaborated with artists and institutions to produce and curate art pieces, exhibits, festivals, and cultural events.
00:00:48
Speaker
As cultural specialist at the UNESCO field office in Mexico, she developed projects and curated exhibitions concerning the relationship between culture and migration, audiovisual heritage, and the environment.
00:00:59
Speaker
Prior to that, she was the head of exhibitions of the Alas y Raices program at the Ministry of Culture in Mexico.
00:01:04
Speaker
Lisa has also collaborated with the International Human Rights Art Festival in New York and the International Contemporary Animation Film Festival, Animasivo, among others.
00:01:13
Speaker
Most recently, she served as programs manager and curator at the NARS Foundation, while also developing independent projects.
00:01:19
Speaker
Among them, Subversive Kin, the act of turning over, presented at the Clemente Soto-Velez Cultural Center in New York and Common Frequencies at BioBet Art Space in Brooklyn, New York.
00:01:28
Speaker
She currently pursues her graduate studies at Hunter College and works as an independent curator.
00:01:33
Speaker
Welcome, Melissa.
00:01:34
Speaker
Thank you for coming on the show.
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, my pleasure.
00:01:40
Speaker
It's been a long time coming.
00:01:42
Speaker
It's been a long time coming, and I think that we've had really awesome results, so I'm really happy about that.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I know that I probably hit you up like...
00:01:52
Speaker
way back when and i was like you should come on the podcast and you were like no i shouldn't no no i don't what am i going to talk about but now but now we like have lots of things to talk about and and i think that alex also like like put me at ease when we were like having that long drive because we were just like talking about stuff and this is like he was like this is a podcast basically and i'm like all right i guess that i can do before we talk about the show can we have at least do like a little um
00:02:20
Speaker
background, how she ended up at Lydian Seder co-curating the show with us.
Transition from Mexico to New York
00:02:26
Speaker
I mean, you don't have to like go into all the details, but like maybe a little shtick about your curating practice.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:02:33
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I mean, I guess it makes sense to start from my arrival to New York in a way.
00:02:41
Speaker
And maybe just for people to know what was before that arrival.
00:02:46
Speaker
In Mexico City, my last job basically was being a culture specialist at the UNESCO field office there.
00:02:53
Speaker
And it was really awesome, but it was very far, far away from art.
00:02:58
Speaker
It was like very much culture in general and very far from art, which is what I've always been passionate about.
00:03:05
Speaker
So the move to New York was really going into like the...
00:03:09
Speaker
the other extreme because where I landed was this place that is the NARS Foundation, which is a residency program working with like artists every day, every hour.
00:03:20
Speaker
Everything is about the artist.
00:03:22
Speaker
And, you know, so it was like like going to the opposite direction, which was exactly what I wanted.
00:03:29
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So
00:03:31
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I was working at NARS since I came to New York, which was 2018, officially.
Residency Experience During the Pandemic
00:03:41
Speaker
Which is where Alisa and I met.
00:03:43
Speaker
Exactly, yes.
00:03:44
Speaker
Which is where we met, because Joe did a residency there in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic.
00:03:51
Speaker
It was still real.
00:03:54
Speaker
It was barely out of the height of the pandemic.
00:03:58
Speaker
with three artists, very socially distanced.
00:04:03
Speaker
Very socially distanced.
00:04:06
Speaker
It was the first residency that we did with pandemic protocols, let's say.
00:04:12
Speaker
We were figuring out the protocols at that time.
00:04:15
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
And I don't know, I mean, I've been working with artists all this time and even before that also in Mexico, not only in UNESCO, but for another settings.
00:04:33
Speaker
But here it was again, like every day, every hour, everything had to do with the artist, which was really awesome.
00:04:40
Speaker
and I was able to say that but I feel like maybe every day every hour is a lot of time.
00:04:46
Speaker
You know what it isn't it isn't I mean I think there are things that become repetitive definitely but I feel like having like different artists having those things makes it different every time yeah and you kind of like work from a base right like you have like this different things that you need to do so you know that the artist arrived this day and then you have the orientation and then you have this thing and then the other
00:05:07
Speaker
So it is a series of like steps that you just like need to follow.
00:05:14
Speaker
But then the fun part is exactly to have like all this new people and then sort of like adapting and like having all this different experiences.
00:05:23
Speaker
So it has this like repetition mode, but I feel like it's always really cool and interesting because- Yeah, like everything that happens inside of the structure or package changes every time, which is cool.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:39
Speaker
And while I was doing that job at the residency program, I was able also to develop a few independent curatorial projects.
Curatorial Projects During the Pandemic
00:05:51
Speaker
So it was like, I don't know, I feel like I wouldn't have been able to do it if it was not because of the pandemic, because we didn't go anywhere.
00:05:59
Speaker
Like it was just like work and home, work and home.
00:06:02
Speaker
And then eventually I'm just like too tired of TV.
00:06:05
Speaker
So I was like, no, I need to do something else.
00:06:08
Speaker
Because there was like nothing else to do.
00:06:10
Speaker
But so it was like really helpful to be able to like work more research more.
00:06:17
Speaker
I don't know.
00:06:17
Speaker
It felt just like more focused.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I feel like right after like, not right after but shortly after the pandemic you did maybe a series of kind of like, exhibition slash like interventions and one of them was that sound piece at the old stone house.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, in Brooklyn that was like part of a series right.
00:06:39
Speaker
That was part of a series that was from a larger project called Common Frequencies.
00:06:44
Speaker
And so we kind of encountered different complications after the... Because the exhibition was supposed to be presented in 2020, like May 2020, which didn't happen, of course.
00:06:58
Speaker
And we had to postpone everything.
00:07:00
Speaker
But we had all this support from different institutions.
00:07:04
Speaker
And I'm not going to say any names, but...
00:07:07
Speaker
Like some of the institutions were requiring for us to like deliver stuff and like do some sort of programming.
00:07:13
Speaker
So in a way, it was sort of like something that we had to come up with, but it was really awesome.
00:07:21
Speaker
So we decided to have a series of interventions in places that were presenting already online.
00:07:30
Speaker
a virtual or a different way in which the artists of the exhibition were working, but presented previously to the exhibition.
00:07:37
Speaker
So in the case of Lorena Mal, she was working with the heartbeats of over 300 animal species.
00:07:46
Speaker
And so she had like this recording with all the beats, which is a piano composition.
00:07:54
Speaker
And so we decided to present that just at a park, basically.
00:07:58
Speaker
which was the old stone house.
00:08:00
Speaker
And it was more of a sound intervention than an exhibition.
00:08:04
Speaker
And people would just like react to it.
00:08:06
Speaker
Some people hated it.
00:08:08
Speaker
I loved it.
00:08:09
Speaker
I thought it was, I thought it was awesome.
00:08:10
Speaker
It was very cool.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like the hate came more from the neighbors because the park is like located in a, I don't know, there's like a weird acoustic, acoustics are weird in that area.
00:08:24
Speaker
So because you had like this like repetitive piano, like, yeah.
00:08:31
Speaker
And then it would change.
00:08:32
Speaker
I don't know.
00:08:34
Speaker
It was like a composition.
00:08:35
Speaker
So there was a lot of different notes.
00:08:37
Speaker
But based on heartbeats of all these different species.
00:08:39
Speaker
So you have at a moment, you're hearing the wild boar.
00:08:44
Speaker
And so you have a heartbeat of the wild boar that is interacting with, I don't know, a squirrel.
00:08:50
Speaker
So the squirrel has another note and another type of sequences.
00:08:54
Speaker
But it's all that type of sound that is just like
00:08:58
Speaker
like very repetitive.
00:08:59
Speaker
And so people were going crazy.
00:09:02
Speaker
And then some other people were just loving it.
00:09:03
Speaker
We had like one person that came and saying like, what is this?
00:09:08
Speaker
It's so amazing.
00:09:09
Speaker
Like I opened my window and there was this sound and it just, I don't know.
00:09:13
Speaker
It had all this like different, um,
00:09:17
Speaker
reactions from people, but it was, I mean, the piece is wonderful.
Sound Interventions and Public Reactions
00:09:21
Speaker
It's a, it's a really amazing piece in itself.
00:09:24
Speaker
Um, it's just like to be able to have it live.
00:09:27
Speaker
Uh, it was well live or like presented in a live setting more like, it was really, it was really awesome.
00:09:35
Speaker
And so along with that, what the other artists did was the series of sound, I wouldn't call them concerts, but it was sound presentations that we did through Zoom, because the artists were also in Mexico.
00:09:53
Speaker
And one of them was working with the sound that is coming from a rock, from the magnetism of a rock.
00:10:02
Speaker
And then another one was working with water.
00:10:05
Speaker
So the sound that he presented was like coming from different types of water that have different types of pollution.
00:10:12
Speaker
So all the...
00:10:16
Speaker
all the data that the machine that he created was able to retrieve that was being translated into sound.
00:10:24
Speaker
So we had like this like sound sessions.
00:10:28
Speaker
We call them actually listening sessions because they're like very like,
00:10:33
Speaker
don't know, like meditative.
00:10:35
Speaker
And so, so yeah, those were like the three things that we had in terms of like public programming presented before the exhibition.
00:10:44
Speaker
And the only one that was, let's say live was the one that you got to see at the, at the Olston house.
00:10:50
Speaker
Okay, cool.
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:53
Speaker
Yeah, that was, it was, I mean, I just, I like any kind of like alternative space being activated, but I can understand how it might have rubbed some people the wrong way.
00:11:04
Speaker
Like, you know, like when there's like a sound piece in a gallery, like in a gal and like a gallery attendant has to sit and listen to it.
00:11:11
Speaker
Like half the time you walk in and it's actually off because they're like, they're like, I'm not going to sit here and listen to the same thing over and over.
00:11:17
Speaker
And then they're like, Oh, let me turn it on for you.
00:11:18
Speaker
Right.
00:11:20
Speaker
But you can't really do that.
00:11:22
Speaker
in a public park.
00:11:23
Speaker
No, and the idea was that we were presenting a certain amount of hours.
00:11:28
Speaker
So it was not that it was looping.
00:11:29
Speaker
It was like a one six-hour composition that was being presented in that space.
00:11:36
Speaker
So it made sense that it had a beginning and an end.
00:11:39
Speaker
And it sort of went through the whole...
00:11:44
Speaker
Because, I mean, maybe I should say that the original composition, actually, I don't know if I can say original because there's been like several versions of it at this point, as I understand.
00:11:55
Speaker
But like the initial thing was like a two-hour concert, like the very first presentation that she did was a two-hour concert with like people playing the piano, which is also what we had at some point.
00:12:09
Speaker
at the gallery space, which was a lot shorter than that.
00:12:13
Speaker
Our presentation was like 30 minutes because she made like adaptations of that.
00:12:17
Speaker
But what we had in the gallery space was a 24-hour clip.
00:12:20
Speaker
So whenever you would come, you would kind of like get that time of the gallery that was like,
00:12:30
Speaker
according to the exact time of the 24 hour loop.
00:12:34
Speaker
Is that clear?
00:12:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:35
Speaker
So did it like kick, it like kicked on and it kicked on in a specific spot based on, okay.
00:12:40
Speaker
So you would like, anytime you were at the gallery, you would never hear the same thing.
00:12:44
Speaker
You would, you would be hearing like the whole, the whole piece that would start, I don't know, like from 12 to 6 PM if those were like the gallery hours.
00:12:53
Speaker
So yeah.
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah.
Pathway to Curatorial Role
00:12:55
Speaker
And then another thing that we did was that the 24-hour piece, people were able to hear it online.
00:13:00
Speaker
So people could connect anywhere in the world to hear the 24-hour piece only on one day.
00:13:07
Speaker
That's a nice connection to the current exhibition here is that it's accessible all the time, at least part of it, right?
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:17
Speaker
I also love the like, I feel like it's like a common pastime in New York City to complain about your neighbor's music.
00:13:25
Speaker
And so like, so like that got integrated into the show, which I think is kind of nice.
00:13:32
Speaker
How did you feel those complaints?
00:13:34
Speaker
Were they just coming up to you guys?
00:13:35
Speaker
They were just coming up because at some point they were like, what is this?
00:13:38
Speaker
We need to go and like find out what it is.
00:13:40
Speaker
So they would come like kind of like nice and say like, what is this?
00:13:46
Speaker
So I would like go and explain the whole thing.
00:13:48
Speaker
And they were like, it's too repetitive.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's too loud.
00:13:51
Speaker
It's too blah, blah, blah.
00:13:52
Speaker
And I'm like, where are you hearing it from?
00:13:55
Speaker
Our apartment all day.
00:13:56
Speaker
They were like complaining a lot.
00:13:57
Speaker
But it was like, I don't know, one or two people that were complaining and they were friends.
00:14:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:02
Speaker
So I feel like they were like teaming up.
00:14:05
Speaker
But most people were really happy and curious about it.
00:14:08
Speaker
So that was cool.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:12
Speaker
I guess in general, I'd like to know more about the role of curation and how it plays into your practice and how you kind of came about.
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:21
Speaker
I feel like it's been like a slow process for me for some reason.
00:14:27
Speaker
I mean, my background is as a graphic designer, which I never liked.
00:14:34
Speaker
Since I was like studying it, I was like, this is not for me.
00:14:37
Speaker
I don't think this is what I want to do with...
00:14:40
Speaker
with my life.
00:14:40
Speaker
So I never actually got to have like a full time job as a graphic designer.
00:14:46
Speaker
Like I was always like looking for alternatives that somehow involve some graphic design because at the end that was my, you know, like my preparation.
00:14:54
Speaker
So I ended up
00:14:58
Speaker
for a very short time being an assistant of an artist who was at the time curating a retrospective show of a really big Mexican artist.
00:15:08
Speaker
And so I was like using my graphic design skills a little bit to like start
00:15:13
Speaker
like thinking about the exhibition and how to, you know, like to organize the show.
00:15:17
Speaker
And so that kind of like triggered a sense of like use on what I could do.
00:15:23
Speaker
So in my following jobs, I was always thinking about exhibition design and like how we could present the work of artists, kind of, depending on the space or the places that I would work
00:15:38
Speaker
Some of them had like a fixed space, but some of them were also like venues in the city, like different places.
00:15:45
Speaker
It was like short exhibitions that would just like be there for a little bit.
00:15:51
Speaker
And so I started thinking a lot about the ways in which the art could be presented in all these different settings using design.
00:15:59
Speaker
And then kind of in parallel, I started working at this project
00:16:03
Speaker
cultural agency that was representing slash advising emergent artists about their work.
00:16:13
Speaker
So
00:16:15
Speaker
I was advising artists on their work.
00:16:18
Speaker
That was like one of my jobs.
00:16:20
Speaker
And it would be like very intuitive and I would be like learning with the artists and learning from them, sort of like doing extra research.
00:16:28
Speaker
And all of a sudden I was like making like selection of work with them.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I was like trying to come up with ideas and like helping them to make like write-ups of what they were working on.
00:16:40
Speaker
And that kind of like started evolving.
00:16:42
Speaker
I feel like back then it was already a sort of like territorial practice.
00:16:48
Speaker
But I was like not, I didn't know how to like own that because I felt that I needed to like go to school and do exactly this.
00:17:00
Speaker
And then it was like after a few years of doing that, that I was like, okay, I think I can call myself a curator now.
00:17:07
Speaker
You know, after like doing it for a while and like this at this stage, I was like still doing like things in a minor way and still learning.
00:17:16
Speaker
But eventually I was like fully taking care of exhibitions, working with the artist in the general ideas and like developing them, producing them.
00:17:26
Speaker
So I feel like I was like, yeah.
00:17:30
Speaker
there's a this term in Spanish that it's called gestión cultural which is there's not a I've never found a right translation in English but it's like arts administration sort of but it's not so much administration it's like more of like the the producing and like the planning of like the whole thing so it's the more it's it's like a wider term I would say um like a facilitator
00:17:52
Speaker
It's more like a facilitator and less involved in development in the sense of getting funds to do this or that.
00:18:02
Speaker
That I've never had any experience, which it's kind of sad because this is what you need.
00:18:07
Speaker
Basically, you need money to do stuff.
00:18:10
Speaker
But I was always working within institutions.
00:18:13
Speaker
So those things were sort of taken care of.
00:18:17
Speaker
Is that when you were working with our friend,
00:18:20
Speaker
Marcos.
Interactive Art Installations for Children
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:24
Speaker
With Marcos, we kind of created a whole installation that was made for kids, basically.
00:18:34
Speaker
And so the idea is that the kids were doing an expanded drawing in space, which was kind of like this little forest.
00:18:44
Speaker
And we bought all this, I don't know, it was like 100 packs of...
00:18:49
Speaker
yarn of all colors and and and yeah he was like exploring with the the kids the idea of like an expanded drawing uh which became uh i was telling alex when we were like on that drive about this project and how it became the nightmare of old parents because kids would get lost
00:19:10
Speaker
Like they created like this.
00:19:12
Speaker
Like in the yarn, they would like get lost in the, oh yeah.
00:19:15
Speaker
It was like a spider, like the most dense and layered spider you could ever imagine.
00:19:19
Speaker
Like the nightmare of parents, but like the dreams of children.
00:19:22
Speaker
The dreams of children.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, kids were just like having a blast.
00:19:25
Speaker
It was like really fun.
00:19:27
Speaker
And then we would have this like worried parents saying like, I can't find my kid.
00:19:31
Speaker
Um, so it was like, they're probably gone, you know?
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:34
Speaker
It's like somewhere in there.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:37
Speaker
You did make them sign the release form.
00:19:40
Speaker
No, it was impossible.
00:19:41
Speaker
You had to sign a waiver and an NDA, all of it.
00:19:45
Speaker
All of it.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, it was really interesting.
00:19:48
Speaker
But so that that setting was like with the Ministry of Culture at that time.
00:19:52
Speaker
So it was like a like a like an arts festival.
00:19:56
Speaker
And I was in charge of all the exhibitions.
00:19:58
Speaker
So I would like call in contemporary artists for artists that I liked their work or thought that could be good.
00:20:06
Speaker
And so in this case, I contacted Marcos and I was like, we want to do this.
00:20:10
Speaker
What do you think?
00:20:11
Speaker
Do you have any ideas?
00:20:11
Speaker
Are you interested?
00:20:12
Speaker
And we kind of like together came up with the idea.
00:20:15
Speaker
He came, of course, with the idea of like the expanded drawing and then kind of like how we would like solve it and do things.
00:20:22
Speaker
It was more of a of a shared thing.
00:20:25
Speaker
But to conceptualize it and everything, it was like it was also like my job.
00:20:30
Speaker
So I was like head of exhibitions, still not calling myself a curator.
00:20:37
Speaker
And it was until I came to New York that I decided to say like, well, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
00:20:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, those images are great.
00:20:47
Speaker
I mean, it looked like they had a blast, the kids and the outcome.
00:20:50
Speaker
The finished product was just like... I haven't seen those.
00:20:53
Speaker
Amazing color feel.
00:20:56
Speaker
It looked like a... Yeah.
00:20:57
Speaker
Abex painting gone wild.
00:20:59
Speaker
No, it was fantastic.
00:21:02
Speaker
I love emergent things like that, like a simple action just done multiple times over and over again just creates this really complicated, complex system.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:14
Speaker
It looked like it was really fun.
00:21:16
Speaker
It was really fun.
00:21:17
Speaker
Like kids were like, like at the, yeah, I don't know.
00:21:21
Speaker
You could see like the faces in the photos that they were like so excited, like screaming, running.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, it was really interesting.
00:21:29
Speaker
And the sense of accomplishment, I can imagine as they look back and say, I had a hand in making that, right?
00:21:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I feel like in that case, it was that sense of accomplishment was more like rooted in like a team effort.
00:21:44
Speaker
Like the team that was working in those projects, in those art first, because I was just like part of the exhibitions, but there was like the literature part, the art.
00:21:53
Speaker
like the concerts part, there was like all of this like different like arts and culture that we were bringing into this festival.
00:22:00
Speaker
So it was like very much of a team effort.
00:22:02
Speaker
It was just not my exhibition, right?
00:22:04
Speaker
So I was just kind of like a little part of a giant festival that would host, I don't know, 70,000 people in a day.
00:22:10
Speaker
It was like really like massive and crazy.
00:22:13
Speaker
So, and I feel like at that time, I also learned a lot from my colleagues and they were thinking very progressively about like participation and about how art could be, you know,
00:22:26
Speaker
perceived not only as a far away thing, but it's something that would involve everyone in the room.
00:22:34
Speaker
So that was always really fun to think about and to try to work with the artist towards experiences that could create this type of response from kids, from families, from... I mean, it was not only for kids, like the parents were like literally wanting to get in there and like doing more stuff.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:54
Speaker
That was probably in the social practice heyday a little bit, right?
00:22:59
Speaker
Like 2012 or something or 2010?
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:04
Speaker
So I started working with them 2009, I think.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:12
Speaker
So it was like 2009, 2010, like sort of around that time that we were doing those things.
00:23:17
Speaker
But yes, there was like a lot of attention in like participatory art, which is always kind of like differently seen because like you're working from the government.
00:23:29
Speaker
So like also, what does that participation mean?
00:23:33
Speaker
It could be like something like really like...
00:23:36
Speaker
I don't know, boring and say like, oh yeah, we gave all this stuff to all these people and we get all these numbers, right?
00:23:41
Speaker
Because it's all about the numbers.
00:23:43
Speaker
At the end, it's like, how many people did you serve or whatever?
00:23:48
Speaker
So, but I feel like it was like, that's why I'm saying that like the sense of accomplishment and like the pride on those projects goes into like a more broad sense because it was like really a team effort.
00:24:00
Speaker
So that was really, that was really nice.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
Well, to the government's hand, again, back to this mythical car ride, do you mind telling the audience how some artists can pay their taxes in Mexico?
Tax Payment Through Art Donation in Mexico
00:24:18
Speaker
So it is my understanding.
00:24:20
Speaker
I've never paid my taxes that way.
00:24:22
Speaker
But there is a way in which artists can donate work as a tax payment.
00:24:30
Speaker
Amazing.
00:24:30
Speaker
Which a lot of people do.
00:24:32
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I'm going to do it this year.
00:24:34
Speaker
He's already submitted two pieces.
00:24:37
Speaker
I'm actually going to send my tax return to the Mexican government.
00:24:41
Speaker
Hand your arm.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:46
Speaker
And I'll just CC the IRS here.
00:24:49
Speaker
I think it's covered.
00:24:52
Speaker
All good.
00:24:52
Speaker
I mean, that's still, yeah.
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
00:24:57
Speaker
They have a giant collection of art also.
00:25:00
Speaker
I mean, they must if people are able to pay their taxes.
00:25:04
Speaker
I just heard that America is 32nd place in the concept of the American dream.
00:25:11
Speaker
Like, you know, the American dream is like American.
00:25:13
Speaker
It's like the ability to own your home.
00:25:17
Speaker
We're 32nd.
00:25:18
Speaker
In our own dream.
00:25:19
Speaker
Constructed dream.
00:25:20
Speaker
Who's number one?
00:25:22
Speaker
I don't know if it's going to be one of those like Finland or one of those Nordic countries.
00:25:28
Speaker
That would make sense.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:30
Speaker
But we're not even in the top ten.
00:25:32
Speaker
I don't know if we ever have been.
00:25:34
Speaker
We might not even have been.
00:25:36
Speaker
There's a reason they call it the dream.
00:25:37
Speaker
A dream.
00:25:38
Speaker
A dream, right?
00:25:41
Speaker
Well, fast forward to now.
00:25:45
Speaker
Oh, wait, wait.
00:25:45
Speaker
Before we get to now.
00:25:46
Speaker
Okay, sorry.
00:25:48
Speaker
So you come guns blasting and you start curating and you're working with NARS and you're doing these micro-curations within the actual NARS institution, right?
00:25:58
Speaker
Because you're helping the artists.
00:26:00
Speaker
Not immediately, though.
00:26:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:26:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:26:02
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of worked my way up at NARS because when I came in, I kind of had a whole different position that was also more related into graphic design, which also had to do with the way in which I was able to be hired and visa stuff that I don't want to get into because that's very boring.
00:26:24
Speaker
But so the first one, I guess my first two years at NARS,
00:26:31
Speaker
I was doing operations and communications.
00:26:34
Speaker
I was like taking care of other things.
00:26:36
Speaker
So that also kind of like gave me time to like understand better how it worked, how they were like curating shows.
00:26:42
Speaker
I did, I was able to create a couple of shows during that time.
00:26:48
Speaker
At like the project space, for example, so I had like this proposal of there was like an opening and I had this proposal of pairing a couple of alumni that I thought was really amazing.
00:26:57
Speaker
So that was like the first show that I was able to do there as the not as a curator of the space, but just as like someone working there, which is only two of us or three, whatever.
00:27:08
Speaker
But but.
00:27:11
Speaker
But it was not until like 2020 that I started being fully programs manager and curator.
00:27:18
Speaker
So it was not immediate.
00:27:20
Speaker
But I was like trying to do projects outside.
00:27:22
Speaker
So I was like trying to work with friends that were
00:27:26
Speaker
also like producing work and like trying to do exhibitions and like making proposals and you know I was working already with the Common Frequency Show which I started in like 2019 that's when that project started developing and also in 2020 or late 2019 I also started collaborating with this other artist in an exhibition called Subversive Kin that
00:27:54
Speaker
showed at the Clemente Sotovelas Cultural Center.
00:27:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:27:58
Speaker
I saw that show.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
So those were kind of like lining up before I was programs manager and curator at NARS.
00:28:07
Speaker
And I was like, so it was not immediate that I was like curating at this specific place, just to clarify.
Subversive Kin Exhibition
00:28:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:15
Speaker
No, great.
00:28:16
Speaker
Which also means you kind of like, you would just like started doing it on your own, rather than having rather than having some kind of like official stamp that said that you are allowed to, which I think is sometimes or always a little more impressive, right?
00:28:32
Speaker
To like, just like get out there and like do it.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
If you don't, if you don't, yeah, that's, that's a great ethos.
00:28:40
Speaker
To go back to the subversive kin, I did not see the show, but I've seen the documentation.
00:28:44
Speaker
I've met the artists that you work with, and I also kind of read over the essay.
00:28:51
Speaker
And it was interesting to me that it was about female-identified land art.
00:28:57
Speaker
And having read something recently, Coco Fusco was telling the whole Michael Heiser crazy thing that he built out in Nevada or whatever.
00:29:08
Speaker
I just put my name on the wait list or whatever.
00:29:10
Speaker
Did you?
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:11
Speaker
But it was interesting.
00:29:12
Speaker
She had come out and said that it's like all these male... This was a male-dominated thing in the 70s.
00:29:17
Speaker
And it was like they didn't take into account anything.
00:29:19
Speaker
Like the people who lived in the land.
00:29:21
Speaker
It was just like...
00:29:22
Speaker
It was like just a continuation, just a colonial continuation of just like white male taking land and doing whatever the hell.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:31
Speaker
Which also... This show that you curated looked completely opposite that.
00:29:36
Speaker
Well, because it was not about land art.
00:29:39
Speaker
They are working with the idea of land.
00:29:41
Speaker
But I feel like land art is the one that falls into this category of male artists that are just deciding.
00:29:47
Speaker
I don't know.
00:29:48
Speaker
I mean, it feels like another form of colonization, of imposition, of saying, I'm going to take this giant land and do whatever I want.
00:29:56
Speaker
But some things are cool.
00:29:58
Speaker
I don't know.
00:29:59
Speaker
It's not that it's all terrible.
00:30:01
Speaker
But I feel like it is...
00:30:03
Speaker
It is the time that we're like rethinking of all these concepts and to think of land and the types of interventions that happen in land.
00:30:11
Speaker
Like you have, I don't know, artists like Cecilia Villicuña that her like land intervention is like creating like these little things that she puts in the water and they just like disappear.
00:30:21
Speaker
You know, like it's a very different type of conversation.
00:30:24
Speaker
You're not like imposing your mark in the land.
00:30:27
Speaker
You're like having a conversation with the land.
00:30:29
Speaker
So the idea of this exhibition was more into like that side of it and working with the idea of land in the sense of like going back to their places of origin, like what does the land in their places of origin means?
00:30:45
Speaker
Like what are like the,
00:30:48
Speaker
I don't know, like the different possibilities and like the roots that come out of, or like the stems that come out of like this type of land and in different conversations that had to do with like settler colonialism, with politics, with ancestry, of course.
00:31:08
Speaker
And so all this like different things were like intertwined and kind of like
00:31:13
Speaker
linked to create what Subversive Kin was, which also was like a really interesting process because you were asking before about like my curation.
00:31:22
Speaker
And I feel like also these projects that I was like developing independently at that time, they kind of like let me like set the way in which I want to like be able to curate, which is not like a vertical thing.
00:31:35
Speaker
I don't want to be like the type of curator that says like this, this and that, you know, like I feel like that doesn't work for me.
00:31:43
Speaker
I feel like it works when it happens in a conversation.
00:31:46
Speaker
It's just like, okay, so these are the ideas.
00:31:48
Speaker
This is what I'm thinking about your work.
00:31:50
Speaker
And I think that, you know, like I do think like this and this would be great, but I want to talk about it with you.
00:31:56
Speaker
And I want to know if you have like other additions to this that would make it better.
00:32:00
Speaker
So for Subversive Kin, it was like really beautiful because it was like a...
00:32:05
Speaker
I was actually, so they already had the slot at the Clemente because they had applied like independently and then they invited me to curate it.
00:32:14
Speaker
So I kind of like shifted a little bit.
00:32:16
Speaker
So they already had the idea of like the subversive kin, that title was there already.
00:32:20
Speaker
And they invited me to think through that title and like gave me some of the information and like the bibliography that they were referring to.
00:32:28
Speaker
And I kind of like amplified that bibliography and brought other artists into that conversation.
00:32:34
Speaker
which became a real conversation.
00:32:36
Speaker
Like we would gather and like talk about these things.
00:32:41
Speaker
Like we had a lot of sessions.
00:32:43
Speaker
At one point we decided to record them.
00:32:46
Speaker
And so if you got to see the little PDF booklet, you'll see that there's like all our conversations or like three conversations that we had at the end talking about all these themes about the show and a lot of like mestizaje and identity and
00:33:04
Speaker
And all these things.
00:33:05
Speaker
So it was like really, really inspiring.
00:33:07
Speaker
And I feel like that exhibition still kind of like sits in the back of my mind and I have it very present in like the things that I'm interested now and like the things that I want to continue practicing in terms of like how to communicate with artists and how to create with them.
00:33:27
Speaker
I also love the idea of a group show that like the artists get together and choose a curator rather than the other way around, which is how it typically happens.
00:33:36
Speaker
Right.
00:33:38
Speaker
Which is, which is kind of amazing.
00:33:39
Speaker
Talk about, talk about ground up.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:41
Speaker
I mean, yeah, for sure.
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker
You're right.
00:33:45
Speaker
I never thought of it that way.
Development of Common Frequencies Exhibition
00:33:47
Speaker
That should happen more often.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:50
Speaker
How did the common frequencies come up?
00:33:52
Speaker
Because that's another show that you did that, again, I unfortunately never went to see.
00:33:57
Speaker
You had nothing but good things to say about it.
00:33:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I caught the one iteration.
00:34:01
Speaker
I think I logged online for one of the other streams for a little bit too.
00:34:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:05
Speaker
But I really remember the Stonehouse one.
00:34:08
Speaker
And you came to the actual exhibition.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:11
Speaker
Also.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:15
Speaker
That one was also, I don't know, it was a...
00:34:23
Speaker
It was a connection that I made through NARS with one of the artists that was working there, not as a NARS resident, but as a studio tenant because the building is kind of like sharing space with a studio tenant thing and then the residency.
00:34:38
Speaker
And so I've had curated group shows, which I think those are more like organized group shows because there's not a lot of curation.
00:34:47
Speaker
It's more like organization of shows.
00:34:49
Speaker
But I had organized some shows in which her work was included.
00:34:54
Speaker
And so at some point, we had a really good relationship.
00:34:58
Speaker
And at some point, she was trying to find someone to help them with this design of this new space that they were starting to look at and present shows at.
00:35:08
Speaker
And I was interested in that.
00:35:10
Speaker
And I knew this person.
00:35:10
Speaker
So the day they opened this space, I just went to visit.
00:35:15
Speaker
And I was totally...
00:35:16
Speaker
like mind blown by the space, by the works.
00:35:21
Speaker
It was an exhibition that was about science, so art and science, or like the intersection of art and science, which it was also something that I was like really interested for like many years before and also was like able to meet like some artists in Mexico that were in this, were working in this intersection.
00:35:41
Speaker
And so that first day, when I saw my friend, who is one of the co-directors of the space, I was like, how does one get to show here?
00:35:51
Speaker
She's like that.
00:35:53
Speaker
I was like, how are you guys going to do it?
00:35:55
Speaker
Are you going to just like create everything yourselves?
00:35:58
Speaker
And she was like, well, we're still figuring things out.
00:36:00
Speaker
But if you have any ideas, we're happy to look at them.
00:36:04
Speaker
um so i i followed up on that like i don't know if it was like a real invitation or just like you know um just like saying or it wasn't saying it was real um so i i kind of like took upon her word and made a proposal it was like a very very simple proposal send it to her and then she was like hey i want you to meet my my associate my co-director um
00:36:29
Speaker
because I want to talk about your proposal and maybe to see the possibility of doing something, also checking chemistries and things like that.
00:36:40
Speaker
And so we got to meet all three of us, and they were really excited about the project.
00:36:47
Speaker
So when they gave that green light, I started developing a little bit more.
00:36:51
Speaker
And I would say worshiping it a little bit with them.
00:36:58
Speaker
also so it could like fall into the lines of what they wanted to do.
00:37:03
Speaker
And they honestly gave me like full freedom to do whatever I wanted.
00:37:06
Speaker
They were like excited with the proposal.
00:37:08
Speaker
And so that's how it happened, basically.
00:37:11
Speaker
So it was just like a good link to the space and just like, again, like trying to like take an opportunity and like make the best out of it.
00:37:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:22
Speaker
And I was I was mixing up exhibitions, but I saw that exhibition twice, I think, because I went to the opening or one of the kind of opening nights that had a performance, a music performance.
00:37:34
Speaker
And then I saw the closing choir piece also.
00:37:37
Speaker
Right.
00:37:39
Speaker
But that was that was such a fun show because the space is like insane and beautiful and huge.
00:37:47
Speaker
um and then like all the works like worst like they've they belonged in a space that that was that was that big they like held their own within that space which isn't always the case yeah um and so the yeah the exhibition like felt big and all the works felt big in like a really nice way uh and then in addition the kind of like um audio components were really fun to experience and especially in that kind of backroom um
00:38:16
Speaker
It was cool.
00:38:16
Speaker
It was a cool show.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, that dark space is crazy.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that's like one of the best shows I've seen in New York City.
00:38:23
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:38:24
Speaker
And I'm not even saying that because we're friends.
00:38:26
Speaker
It actually was a fantastic show.
00:38:28
Speaker
It was really cool.
00:38:29
Speaker
That's cool.
00:38:31
Speaker
Thank you.
00:38:31
Speaker
You got to work with Tanya Candiano?
00:38:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:38:34
Speaker
Candiano.
00:38:36
Speaker
Yes.
00:38:38
Speaker
It was funny, at Freeze New York, I interrupted one of her sales.
00:38:42
Speaker
I know.
00:38:43
Speaker
I remember that.
00:38:44
Speaker
I listened to that episode and I was like, oh, Dania.
00:38:49
Speaker
I was like, sorry, I could come back.
00:38:51
Speaker
I actually told her about it.
00:38:54
Speaker
I had a phone conversation with her after that and I was like, oh, guess what?
00:38:59
Speaker
I got to hear this podcast where they were interviewing your gallery when they were selling one of your works and she was like, really?
00:39:06
Speaker
What?
00:39:07
Speaker
She's like, wait, you know that guy?
00:39:10
Speaker
And he messed up the sale?
00:39:14
Speaker
No, I think the sale was done, right?
00:39:16
Speaker
Yes, the sale was done.
00:39:17
Speaker
We came back and we interviewed both the gallerist and the actual art advisor who purchased the piece on behalf
Art Sales Anecdote at Freeze New York
00:39:24
Speaker
of one of her collectors.
00:39:24
Speaker
But that was so interesting to be...
00:39:28
Speaker
Pervy too?
00:39:28
Speaker
Pervy too.
00:39:29
Speaker
Pervy too?
00:39:30
Speaker
And Pervy.
00:39:32
Speaker
It felt Pervy.
00:39:34
Speaker
Fair enough.
00:39:35
Speaker
It was strange, but I had never been in that kind of like, you know, those are pretty high end conversations with high end, you know, collectors and whatnot.
00:39:44
Speaker
So it was, it was very interesting.
00:39:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool that they opened up.
00:39:48
Speaker
But the work was amazing.
00:39:50
Speaker
The work was amazing.
00:39:50
Speaker
She's, she's an amazing artist.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, she's an amazing artist.
00:39:54
Speaker
She's actually having a solo show at one of the major museums in Mexico, which is Moac, University Museum of Contemporary Art would be, I guess, the translation.
00:40:08
Speaker
And she's been working for many, many years.
00:40:10
Speaker
She represented Mexico at the Venice Biennial a few years ago.
00:40:16
Speaker
And she's like a very active, she's another person that works a lot in like collectivity, which is something that I feel like I want to do more and more just like in life, like even like the experience that we had in this exhibition in which we co-curated
00:40:34
Speaker
the exhibition, I feel like it was like really wonderful because at times curating can become a little bit of a lonely task, which I don't like.
00:40:44
Speaker
I feel like when you enter your mind and try to think of things on your own, it just like becomes a bit of a...
00:40:52
Speaker
of a weird thing, you know, and like having other people to talk about it, to develop it.
Collective Energy in Art-Making
00:40:58
Speaker
I think it's really great.
00:40:59
Speaker
And I feel like many of the artists that were included in that exhibition in Common Frequencies, they all had like really interesting networks
00:41:08
Speaker
in which they created their works.
00:41:09
Speaker
So it was kind of like a collective of collectives that would expand even into New York, right?
00:41:17
Speaker
Because that was one of the things that we wanted to do.
00:41:19
Speaker
We wanted to make sure that all the pieces would have some sort of connection with New York City because he was all Mexican artists.
00:41:25
Speaker
None of them lives here.
00:41:27
Speaker
And so, for example, for the Bird's piece that I was mentioning before, not the Bird's piece, the Heartbeats, I'm sorry, piece,
00:41:35
Speaker
that I was mentioning before, we worked with Brooklyn-based or New York-based piano players to create the piece.
00:41:44
Speaker
So the artist was working with them.
00:41:46
Speaker
We had a lot of meetings on Zoom to make this.
00:41:49
Speaker
The final concert that Joe was talking about was also with the Brooklyn-based choir, which the artist and another collaborator were working directly with.
00:42:00
Speaker
So same with the water piece, there was like this presentation.
00:42:06
Speaker
So we were able to kind of like make all these connections with like the the billion oyster project.
00:42:12
Speaker
This piece was accompanied by a series of interviews of like the situation of of the water in New York City.
00:42:21
Speaker
All this to say that every single piece in the projects that have been more significant for me have always stemmed from collective efforts.
00:42:31
Speaker
I feel like that's what makes them so powerful many times.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker
And I feel like there's like, um, I mean that, that was one of the, that was the transition I was going to use to talk about the show was this idea of kind of like collective making and collective energy.
00:42:53
Speaker
But also I, I feel like even when it's not super direct and intentional, like, like it was for the show, which you were really good about kind of like, um,
00:43:05
Speaker
advocating for us to do it in a more kind of collective fashion.
00:43:10
Speaker
Like nobody makes in a vacuum, right?
00:43:12
Speaker
So there's always like these energies and people that people are like, that artists are relying on when they make work and they have networks and they indirectly or directly kind of like use them
00:43:26
Speaker
when they're making or when they're showing or when they're like making connections or doing whatever.
00:43:31
Speaker
And I feel like there's this like overarching thing, but then it can be like really direct where you're like, all right, there's this one task or there's this one thing and we're going to like, we're going to tackle it very intentionally collectively.
00:43:44
Speaker
Which it felt like this exhibition to me felt like that mostly because you, you did a great job of pushing us to, to do it.
00:43:52
Speaker
Um, which I thought was hard and challenging and rewarding and like all of those things, but I don't know, how did, how did you
Collaborative Curation Challenges and Benefits
00:44:02
Speaker
feel about it?
00:44:02
Speaker
Did it feel challenging and like messy?
00:44:05
Speaker
Cause it did to me.
00:44:05
Speaker
I feel like.
00:44:07
Speaker
But not in a bad way.
00:44:08
Speaker
Like, like messy, like how any kind of like non-hierarchical kind of like, if nobody's taking charge or giving directions, like who's doing anything, right?
00:44:16
Speaker
Sorry.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:18
Speaker
I feel like that was the hardest part to say like, okay, who is, who is leading?
00:44:22
Speaker
Who's taking the lead here?
00:44:23
Speaker
Right.
00:44:23
Speaker
So I guess at the end, we kind of like naturally boasted in our own way.
00:44:27
Speaker
So it kind of like, like there were like moments in which you guys were leading and then others in which I was probably leading or like, like leaving it to the artists at certain points also for them to lead.
00:44:38
Speaker
So I feel like, um,
00:44:41
Speaker
It was really nice to not have all the leading to do, number one, which is really appreciated.
00:44:53
Speaker
And then I feel like the clunky parts were...
00:45:00
Speaker
would like come up with when we were not talking about it.
00:45:03
Speaker
So maybe if like someone did something and then someone did something else and then that's put together, it's like, oh, this is like weird.
00:45:09
Speaker
Like, how is this going to work together?
00:45:11
Speaker
Right, so it's like when we weren't actually collaborating was when it was like- Exactly.
00:45:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, but I feel like at the end, like that collaboration and even like when Alex also came in into like very specific points in the text and like in the conversation, I feel like that's kind of like what like rounded it up.
00:45:29
Speaker
And I feel like it also, it's important in the sense of like giving us a sense of like pertinence.
00:45:38
Speaker
No, that's not a right word.
00:45:40
Speaker
Like belonging maybe?
00:45:42
Speaker
Or like that it's something that you are doing.
00:45:45
Speaker
So there's like, everyone knows sort of everything about it, right?
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's transparent.
00:45:50
Speaker
We're not like... It is transparent.
00:45:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:53
Speaker
Definitely.
00:45:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like, we're like, here's a really bad draft of the essay, everyone.
00:46:01
Speaker
Let's look at it, right?
00:46:02
Speaker
And all the good seeds are there, but it's not finished and it's not finessed.
00:46:07
Speaker
And so that's kind of a fun process for everybody to see how it happens.
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:15
Speaker
And I think also...
00:46:17
Speaker
there was like a good balance in the sense that I'm a little bit more intense in terms of like timelines and things like that.
00:46:24
Speaker
And you guys were like very relaxed, which I think that made like a perfect combination for it not to feel like it was like all tension, but you know, like, especially for the artists,
00:46:36
Speaker
There was like this moment when I when I was like, where is like the piece and I was like, can you bring it tomorrow and Alex was like, No, bring it before the show.
00:46:45
Speaker
And I was like, Okay, we're gonna do that.
00:46:49
Speaker
All right.
00:46:49
Speaker
Day of no problem.
00:46:52
Speaker
Which is good.
00:46:54
Speaker
I mean, I feel like, so what I was going to say with this is that I feel like this, like liberty and this like possibility of like continue working on things is that what makes pieces better, you know, like the fact that you know, like, like things come up, right?
00:47:07
Speaker
Like, like, sometimes pieces end up being final just because they went like they run out of time.
00:47:14
Speaker
Right.
00:47:15
Speaker
Right, which is like, it just has to be.
00:47:16
Speaker
And so it has to be.
00:47:18
Speaker
Or, or you finish an essay, and you send it out to everybody.
00:47:21
Speaker
And then somebody is like, Oh, here's all my thoughts on it.
00:47:24
Speaker
And some quotes from, from a text that I think fit well.
00:47:29
Speaker
And I know you just sent me the PDF version that's finished.
00:47:32
Speaker
But like, maybe you think about this.
00:47:34
Speaker
And like, sometimes that happens.
00:47:37
Speaker
Also, I do have to say it, of all our shows, it's the freshest, like,
00:47:44
Speaker
all the pieces literally were, they came out of the oven and straight into the gallery.
00:47:48
Speaker
They did.
00:47:49
Speaker
Which I feel like it's also like part of this process.
00:47:51
Speaker
Like, cause when you come as a creator and say like this, this, this, then there's like no option for that.
00:47:57
Speaker
But here, like, it was like, okay, this is the idea.
00:47:59
Speaker
This is what's happening.
00:48:00
Speaker
It was also kind of like a new endeavor in terms of like the NFTs for the artists, right?
00:48:04
Speaker
Like it was the first time that they were making NFTs.
00:48:07
Speaker
So also like, I feel like something that is wonderful about you guys and about leading stator is the,
00:48:13
Speaker
this like encouragement to experiment with this like new thing that people are still figuring it out.
Virtual Gallery Space and Art Interpretation
00:48:20
Speaker
So I feel like that openness kind of like gives way for these new things to happen instead of like having like the straight up translations of things, which was something that I think that I love how it turned out.
00:48:35
Speaker
Like I love that we were able to do this like virtual gallery space where, you know, you have like a,
00:48:42
Speaker
like a side reading of things or like the fact that you have a VR gallery adds into the conversation and the questions that we're presenting in the general preposition of the show.
00:48:56
Speaker
And it also kind of like gave another possibility for artists to think
00:49:01
Speaker
outside of that one meaning of their piece.
00:49:06
Speaker
I have this piece, but then if it's translated into this other place, how is it changing?
00:49:12
Speaker
How does it meaning in the space where it's located is going to change or it's going to create a new result?
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, I was really excited when, because like I've seen NFT works that are AR enabled.
00:49:30
Speaker
So right, they're 3D renderings that you can place anywhere you want.
00:49:34
Speaker
But the ones I've seen before, you have to kind of like code them to be that.
00:49:38
Speaker
You have to like upload an HTML file or a zip file that like has all of these components.
00:49:43
Speaker
But the platform we use, it's just built into their interface.
00:49:48
Speaker
And so all of the 3D works that HuyDee and Y made can be placed anywhere.
00:49:54
Speaker
And so as soon as I realized that, I was like, oh, I was like, this is so fun.
00:49:58
Speaker
And then I sent them to them and they were like also really excited about it, which is cool because like, of course they're down to like let their works live in different spaces and like that they don't have control over because they were like, okay with this version of the show that we decided to do.
00:50:12
Speaker
Right.
00:50:13
Speaker
So it's like not a,
00:50:14
Speaker
It's not like a heavy lift to think that they would also be like, yeah, sure.
00:50:18
Speaker
Like put my, uh, put my sculpture in the woods and make a video of it or whatever.
00:50:24
Speaker
That is totally cool.
00:50:25
Speaker
That was awesome.
00:50:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:28
Speaker
So I was excited about that.
00:50:29
Speaker
That was cool.
00:50:30
Speaker
So if anybody's listening, if you haven't hop on and grab one of the works and put it.
00:50:37
Speaker
I have one like of one of Weedy's sculptures next to my cat on the bed.
00:50:40
Speaker
He's like looking at it.
00:50:44
Speaker
It's really fun.
00:50:51
Speaker
I'd see how long you get the dead pause could last.
00:50:53
Speaker
Longer than you.
00:50:58
Speaker
So was it last weekend when I was gallery sitting?
00:51:02
Speaker
Y came over with a friend of hers, curator, and Y said something complimentary that I thought I would share with you guys.
00:51:10
Speaker
I was going to ask her a little bit more about it later on on the Instagram Live.
00:51:13
Speaker
But she said that her practice has changed because of the show.
00:51:17
Speaker
The very nature of the way that we facilitated, we were able to facilitate the virtual with the real kind of clicked.
00:51:26
Speaker
And it's actually changed the way she's gone about her next project.
00:51:30
Speaker
And I thought that was very nice to hear.
00:51:32
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:51:34
Speaker
I feel like that's like the best results you could ask for as like somebody who's putting on a show.
00:51:40
Speaker
Right.
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:41
Speaker
And also, I think that speaks to you, to your, your inclination to like you to have them be in the show, right.
00:51:49
Speaker
To bring them as kind of like potential artists to work with.
00:51:53
Speaker
as like people that made total sense to kind of like do this, this physical virtual overlap thing because they already were, it's already like baked into their practice, but not in this kind of like specific way that we put it together for the show and definitely not, you know, using NFTs as kind of like the, the digital objects as a one-to-one.
00:52:15
Speaker
So kudos on that.
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's really great to hear.
00:52:22
Speaker
I feel like they are both really excited about the results.
00:52:28
Speaker
And I don't know, I just feel like things expand.
00:52:32
Speaker
And even for me, just like putting the VR goggles, I was like, what is this?
00:52:39
Speaker
You know?
00:52:40
Speaker
Like, I don't know, I guess I'm an older person, not that old, but a little older.
00:52:45
Speaker
So VR goggles are not something that I grew up with or that are like really available to me.
00:52:50
Speaker
So this was the first time that I was experiencing that.
00:52:53
Speaker
And also coming from like a scene where I'm like always thinking of like landscape and, you know, like this kind of like other line of thought.
00:53:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:03
Speaker
it was really wonderful to feel like in this space, you know, like I feel like the distance that sometimes digital works can have, it's something that was like very present for me, you know, like sort of like the division between the person and either the screen or like the, well, mostly the screen basically.
00:53:25
Speaker
But to be inside,
00:53:28
Speaker
that space, like with those objects, that kind of like changes the whole experience.
00:53:33
Speaker
And it might sound a little bit like, well, yeah, that's the thing, right?
00:53:38
Speaker
That's the VR.
00:53:40
Speaker
But it is really...
00:53:43
Speaker
something that it's like, for me, it's important to be considered from like the, from like that bodily experience, right?
00:53:51
Speaker
Like, cause we talk about that in the show, like what's like that relationship to the body when we're talking about all this, like virtual and digital things and, and kind of like as a conclusion, like kind of late, like after the text and the whole thing, we can do another one.
00:54:06
Speaker
We'll just, we'll just add it in.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:10
Speaker
But I think the body is still present, or at least the sensation of a body.
00:54:18
Speaker
I mean, you cannot take things with your hands.
00:54:20
Speaker
Not yet.
00:54:23
Speaker
Not yet, right.
00:54:25
Speaker
But just the fact that you can be in the same space and going around those things and
00:54:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:30
Speaker
And when you turn your head, it turns, right?
00:54:32
Speaker
So like you have that motion of your own control that you're doing with your body and it makes it change and it makes your senses perceive new things.
00:54:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:44
Speaker
It's totally different.
00:54:45
Speaker
Great conclusion.
00:54:47
Speaker
Thank you.
00:54:49
Speaker
No, but I feel like that's like what we were talking about the whole time.
00:54:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:54
Speaker
And like, obviously, that's why we did the virtual gallery.
00:54:57
Speaker
But also, like, we did the virtual gallery because it's cool.
00:55:00
Speaker
And it's like an interesting extension.
00:55:02
Speaker
But also, it's like very much directly connected to this idea of the body experiencing space and space.
00:55:08
Speaker
and art and everything else.
00:55:11
Speaker
But to go back to that conversation I had with Y, her friend who's a seasoned curator and has done a lot of things virtually and has worked with like big name galleries doing these like big immersive installations.
00:55:28
Speaker
she was quite taken by what we presented because it just, the simplicity of the virtual reality space with those particular objects in conjunction with the real objects in the physical space and the interplay, it just, I mean, call it luck, call it whatever, it just all worked really well.
00:55:52
Speaker
Had that virtual space been super
00:55:54
Speaker
hyper realistic uh and done up like by some major uh vr it might not it might have it might have read as cold and distant and not necessarily put you in that headspace that this particular uh this particular environment does i think it it just for for whatever reason it kind of just it just all works uh if that for for lack of a better sense it just worked
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think the disconnection is just enough to make it really interesting.
00:56:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:26
Speaker
Between the two spaces and the works and everything else.
00:56:30
Speaker
Because I sat in on a panel recently for, like the Lumen Prize gave up some awards.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:41
Speaker
Kudos to some of the work that I saw, but it was just like, it looked like it came out of Hollywood.
00:56:45
Speaker
Some of the virtual reality spaces that they were creating.
00:56:48
Speaker
It was just so overdone and so overproduced.
00:56:51
Speaker
I just, for me, they lacked emotion and they lacked, I couldn't put myself into those spaces.
00:56:59
Speaker
It just read as Hollywood to me.
00:57:00
Speaker
It read as something as cinematic and theatrical.
00:57:04
Speaker
Whereas this is, I don't know, it just feels like, it feels like
00:57:10
Speaker
what it's supposed to feel like.
00:57:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:13
Speaker
And I feel like it does allow you when you're thinking about, because like most of the things that are presented in the gallery space are renderings, right?
00:57:21
Speaker
Am I saying it wrong?
00:57:23
Speaker
Do I cut it all around?
00:57:26
Speaker
The virtual gallery space.
00:57:27
Speaker
Right, the virtual gallery space.
00:57:28
Speaker
Thank you.
00:57:28
Speaker
Yes.
00:57:31
Speaker
But so it is not like you said, Alex, that would take you to this wonderful place.
00:57:38
Speaker
Like the beginning of the VR, when we were trying to troubleshoot the day that I didn't know how to do it, I was like, well, okay, where are you?
00:57:43
Speaker
Okay, I'm in paradise, right?
00:57:45
Speaker
Like, do you have like this?
00:57:47
Speaker
It's like places, which is like the home space for the VR set.
00:57:51
Speaker
Whatever Oculus gives you is a home screen, right?
00:57:53
Speaker
It's some beautifully rendered paradise.
00:57:58
Speaker
It is pretty cozy in there, though.
00:57:59
Speaker
It is very nice and cozy.
00:58:00
Speaker
It's very nice.
00:58:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:02
Speaker
It's pretty crazy.
00:58:04
Speaker
And so I think that kind of like the fact that the VR gallery is not in that like aesthetic line, let's say, I feel like it also kind of like...
00:58:15
Speaker
allows you to have a more thick division between the bodily and the virtual.
00:58:24
Speaker
Because then the other one is kind of trying to imitate reality.
00:58:29
Speaker
And then the virtual is always trying to imitate reality.
00:58:31
Speaker
But in this case, you have...
00:58:34
Speaker
like still kind of like that separation and you're allowed to step into that separation right instead of like staying in this like imaginary world that looks exactly like your world you're like in an imaginary world where like if you would imagine yourself you would probably look like a little clunky and like i don't know a whole different thing yeah yeah is roger rabbit the one where the the person goes into the cartoon
00:58:59
Speaker
Yes.
00:59:00
Speaker
Right.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:01
Speaker
So you're like allowed to like be a cartoon a little bit inside of the virtual space.
00:59:07
Speaker
And I mean, which makes sense with, with all of the work, I think, I mean, especially Huidi's work, but even, even wise sculpture or rendering or whatever is like, is this like weird version of the like translation of the body of
00:59:25
Speaker
from the work in the physical space in a way that like, doesn't look like reality and it's not supposed to.
00:59:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:33
Speaker
So yeah.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:34
Speaker
I think it definitely feels like it feels like it's supposed to.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yeah, especially in the case of like, I feel like you have the mannequin, which is like also like taking this like, which is another story, but like this like predefined like body, right?
00:59:51
Speaker
And then the switch into like what you find
00:59:55
Speaker
in the virtual space it's like like people I feel like people have been a little confused about like oh and then there's like this like other person like they they don't so easily relate it to what's happening in front right because there is kind of like I don't know what I love about like that work is like the amount of like layers of like this one character that can exist and and it kind of like dives into like making it like
01:00:23
Speaker
even more layered, more repetitive, like the multiplicity that eventually evolves into like fragmentation.
01:00:31
Speaker
It's just like really interesting up to the point where people are kind of like, and then what is that person there?
01:00:37
Speaker
Like, who is that thing there?
01:00:41
Speaker
And so I really love that that extreme separation also happens in that work.
01:00:46
Speaker
In Huiti, it's a little bit more subtle, right?
01:00:49
Speaker
You kind of have the normal evolution of how this thing would look if it was composed or assembled this way.
01:00:57
Speaker
or with colors.
01:00:59
Speaker
And while initially, why should be like a more seamless translation, it is not.
01:01:06
Speaker
And I think that's really interesting.
01:01:08
Speaker
I feel like it also
NFTs and Digital Art Perspectives
01:01:11
Speaker
kind of like opens the door to a whole other thing, which now I guess it makes sense that she says that the practice is kind of like taking new places.
01:01:23
Speaker
That's awesome.
01:01:25
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:25
Speaker
And then I guess we'd be remiss to ask you about coming into this project and your thoughts on NFTs and then having gone through it, your thoughts on NFTs.
01:01:36
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:37
Speaker
What are your thoughts?
01:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, because the NFC conversation with us three has been a long one, right?
01:01:43
Speaker
We started a year ago or a year and a half ago and have continued talking about it.
01:01:47
Speaker
You have to convince me.
01:01:49
Speaker
I know.
01:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like we've, I don't know if we've gotten good at convincing people, but we've had lots of conversations about it.
01:01:58
Speaker
Well, I feel like, I think that's a good thing.
01:02:01
Speaker
You know, like the fact that you're able and like willing to have multiple conversations about something with someone that is like not fully sold on this thing.
01:02:09
Speaker
I think that's a really important step to take.
01:02:12
Speaker
And it also shows your commitment with it and, and your, um,
01:02:18
Speaker
And the fact that you're willing to explore it and like have an account like people's concerns and observations about the medium.
01:02:24
Speaker
So I think that's really cool.
01:02:27
Speaker
And I did change my mind definitely.
01:02:29
Speaker
I think that, what?
01:02:34
Speaker
Converted her?
01:02:34
Speaker
That's like a religion or something.
01:02:38
Speaker
I mean, it kind of was and is, but it definitely was.
01:02:41
Speaker
Sorry.
01:02:44
Speaker
I am still against the repetition.
01:02:48
Speaker
Like when something exists in the real world, so to speak, and it's like only like translated or like did, I feel like it's less interesting for me.
01:02:59
Speaker
I mean, I understand why it happens and I understand kind of like it's
01:03:03
Speaker
its mechanics of it.
01:03:04
Speaker
But I was really excited about this show because we were able to kind of like switch that conversation and kind of like use NFTs as a medium, not so much just like as a thing that will have like a copy of it that has another, you know, like a type of like perspectives in terms of like market and life.
01:03:23
Speaker
And, you know, I feel like when you're able to incorporate the
01:03:29
Speaker
the tool, if one can call it a tool, I feel like it changes the whole thing.
01:03:35
Speaker
Like it makes sense to use it in that way and with that purpose and to be sold in this other world.
01:03:44
Speaker
Not to mention that it really relieved me the fact that we were using testos.
01:03:49
Speaker
So that's because, again, like my environmental course.
01:03:54
Speaker
I don't know, the worries were like one of the biggest things for me at the beginning.
01:04:00
Speaker
And to understand like that the Tezos are a completely different thing.
01:04:04
Speaker
I guess now Ethereum is a different thing also.
01:04:08
Speaker
But things have like taken time into like progressing into this more like sustainable ways.
01:04:18
Speaker
So, and I hope that, you know, that the objects can also have a life, you know, because I feel like that's what's exciting about it.
01:04:28
Speaker
And that's what's important for the artist.
01:04:32
Speaker
And I don't know, I think a lot about what something that Joe was talking about the other day, which is like how democratic it is as a medium, which I also really like.
01:04:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:48
Speaker
I, I, this, this kind of like exhibition, this iteration of us helping artists put their work into the NFT space.
01:04:57
Speaker
I feel like we've like really hit our stride here in terms of like things that really work well and things that are interesting conceptually and like,
01:05:07
Speaker
allowing digital objects to actually have a life separate from physical object or a physical space.
01:05:15
Speaker
This exhibition feels really good and how it all came together.
01:05:17
Speaker
And in terms of like the digital life of these works, I feel like it's just going to get easier and easier to like integrate digital works into your physical life.
01:05:31
Speaker
And so they can exist as objects in the real world as opposed to just things on screens.
01:05:36
Speaker
And we've talked about this before, but, you know, like, like dedicated frames that are digital that can show this work, I think will become much more common as companies start making them more accessible and more and cheaper and more mainstream.
01:05:53
Speaker
So like, I wouldn't be surprised in five years if somebody has both Y and Huiti's works on their wall.
01:06:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:01
Speaker
A little moving image or whatever.
01:06:03
Speaker
Maybe there's like a, maybe you can like wave your hand in front of it and it moves and like rotate it.
01:06:08
Speaker
I don't know.
01:06:09
Speaker
It'll be cool.
01:06:12
Speaker
I mean, speaking of which, I mean, the show neither here nor there is open till October 16th.
01:06:19
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:19
Speaker
Two more, two more weekends.
01:06:21
Speaker
So four more.
01:06:24
Speaker
Open days.
01:06:25
Speaker
Please come by.
01:06:26
Speaker
You can see it on the internet with the VR gallery, but I really think it's so much cooler to put the headset on and take it off inside of the physical space, for sure.
01:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, it makes a whole difference.
01:06:38
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:39
Speaker
It's a surprisingly satisfying experience.
01:06:44
Speaker
Yeah, it messes with your orientation physically, but also messes with your head conceptually quite a bit in a nice way.
01:06:56
Speaker
What are you doing now?
01:06:57
Speaker
What's next?
Future Plans in Art History and Projects
01:06:59
Speaker
I'm reading like a crazy person.
01:07:03
Speaker
Not because I want to be crazy reading, but because I am pursuing a master's degree in art history right now.
01:07:12
Speaker
So I am just starting getting used to school because I haven't been in 20 years.
01:07:18
Speaker
So it's a whole new experience for me, as I've told you before.
01:07:25
Speaker
And also like trying to, I don't know, I have to confess that when I tell this to Chris, my partner, he's like, no, Chell, you have to like focus on one thing.
01:07:36
Speaker
But I'm like, at the same time, like trying to think of like new ideas.
01:07:40
Speaker
I have like this, like,
01:07:41
Speaker
app on my phone where you can like sort of like put together like some ideas and like themes.
01:07:46
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm a little bit like excited about like putting things together right now.
01:07:51
Speaker
I feel like, I don't know, I had like a cleansing moment, like vacation was very much like vacation.
01:07:57
Speaker
And I'm feeling kind of like a new energy that I don't know if I'm going to fully pursue because I really have a lot to do with school.
01:08:07
Speaker
But yeah, I'm excited about whatever will come in the future.
01:08:12
Speaker
For now, I'm like focusing on that.
01:08:14
Speaker
But hopefully soon there will be more projects.
01:08:17
Speaker
So you may be curating more shows in the near future, but maybe not, but probably not.
01:08:23
Speaker
No, I think I will be curating more shows in the future, definitely.
01:08:26
Speaker
I don't know if right now, like in the next six months, definitely not.
01:08:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:08:33
Speaker
But maybe while you're still in school, you'll jump back into the curating.
01:08:38
Speaker
Definitely.
01:08:39
Speaker
I mean, it's supposed to be like a program that you can manage in part-time.
01:08:44
Speaker
I'm giving it my full time right now because I'm really...
01:08:47
Speaker
trying to get it like in the pace of things um but i am also like hoping that not uh not too far away uh no that's not right not to how do you say it in the near future yes that in the near future i could like um continue like doing shows and curating yeah um two final questions for me is curation part of the program at all
01:09:16
Speaker
So it is not, it is art history, but there is like this thing that is called the curatorial certificate, which I am planning on taking.
01:09:25
Speaker
And I think everyone has been like telling me like, why are you going to take that if you're like already creating shows?
01:09:30
Speaker
You're going to be like, I'd like to get a certificate.
01:09:32
Speaker
And they're going to be like, no, you don't need it.
01:09:35
Speaker
I need this.
01:09:36
Speaker
I also think that it's going to be really cool to have like a more like organized thing.
01:09:41
Speaker
Cause my, my way of doing all this has been very DIY and like trying to figure out things.
01:09:50
Speaker
Like I have a problem in this, like, how do I solve this?
01:09:52
Speaker
How do I do this?
01:09:53
Speaker
And then I just kind of like end up doing it, but the process is like messy and complicated.
01:09:58
Speaker
And while now it's like a little bit more of a, of a, of a simpler process.
01:10:03
Speaker
No, that's a lie.
01:10:04
Speaker
It's never simple.
01:10:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:07
Speaker
Actually, it's always a messy process for me.
01:10:11
Speaker
But I think that having this type of certificate, I guess, or like the process for the certificate, I'm looking forward to like finding like other tools that other professionals would share in their practice.
01:10:27
Speaker
And I feel like that's always really, really cool.
01:10:29
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:10:31
Speaker
And my final question is, have you made any friends yet?
01:10:33
Speaker
Because I know that you were stressing about it.
01:10:36
Speaker
Wow, he's putting you on blast here.
01:10:40
Speaker
Well, it's tough for a student, especially coming at it from a, I mean, we're all older and you've been out of school for 20 years and you're coming back.
01:10:49
Speaker
It's tough to make friends, right?
01:10:51
Speaker
It is tough to make friends.
01:10:52
Speaker
And I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I'm starting to have some friends now.
01:10:56
Speaker
Oh, nice.
01:10:58
Speaker
Great.
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:59
Speaker
I had a feeling.
01:11:00
Speaker
We still don't like, like, chattel the time or anything.
01:11:04
Speaker
But, but like, like, some ways are opening up.
01:11:07
Speaker
So, and people are very cool.
01:11:09
Speaker
I feel like I was just like too, too used to be like working with or like being or hanging out with artists.
01:11:15
Speaker
That was, that's kind of like my whole network here.
01:11:18
Speaker
Only artists.
01:11:19
Speaker
And so like to encounter art historians, it's like another like wonderful thing, but it's like a different, right?
01:11:27
Speaker
Like the way, like the ways they are thinking about things.
01:11:32
Speaker
And I find myself sometimes kind of like, I don't know, like,
01:11:40
Speaker
Like in classes, for example, when we are, there's a class that we have like, there's like MA students and then there's like MFA students.
01:11:51
Speaker
And I feel like the ways in which I engage in conversations sometimes is more like the MFA students that the MA students.
01:12:01
Speaker
Like the way I formulate things, the way like my references, my, so I'm kind of like in that moment where I'm like, okay, I need to be more MA.
01:12:11
Speaker
I need to be more MA now.
01:12:13
Speaker
I don't know.
01:12:14
Speaker
I was just thinking about that yesterday.
01:12:15
Speaker
I had that experience and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm like more on like this side than this side.
01:12:22
Speaker
But I don't know.
01:12:23
Speaker
I feel like there should not be sides also.
01:12:25
Speaker
I kind of like that, you know, like it.
01:12:28
Speaker
And again, going back to the idea of like collectivity and like
01:12:33
Speaker
And like the more the merrier, I feel like it's cool to be able to combine those things and like maybe to create bridges like from one to the other.
01:12:43
Speaker
So that's a little corny, sorry.
01:12:47
Speaker
I still want to see, because going back to that mythical car ride, I still want to see those photographs.
01:12:52
Speaker
Like the objects that you used to make.
01:12:55
Speaker
Ah, yes.
01:12:56
Speaker
I'll send them to you one day.
01:12:57
Speaker
I don't know if I have them.
01:12:58
Speaker
Probably in an old hard drive.
01:13:00
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:01
Speaker
Yes.
01:13:02
Speaker
I imagine they're still on, like, they were literally shot on film.
01:13:06
Speaker
They were actually digital.
01:13:08
Speaker
A really, really old digital camera.
01:13:12
Speaker
A Canon 2D.
01:13:16
Speaker
Oh, wow.
01:13:16
Speaker
Yes.
01:13:17
Speaker
That's ancient.
01:13:18
Speaker
Well, we can't reference the objects without talking about what they looked like, right?
01:13:23
Speaker
These were sculptures?
01:13:24
Speaker
These were... Go ahead.
01:13:26
Speaker
So, yeah, I was telling Alex that before, when I was kind of transitioning from being a designer to work in the arts, I had like seven minutes of being an artist myself.
01:13:38
Speaker
Oh.
01:13:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
01:13:40
Speaker
And it was more than seven minutes.
01:13:41
Speaker
It was more like a couple of years.
01:13:44
Speaker
But I was like working with or not working, but just like playing or experimenting with this, like, like literally like Play-Doh.
01:13:51
Speaker
I was telling Alex that also kind of like because I didn't have any like knowledge of like materials or anything.
01:13:57
Speaker
I would like end up like doing stuff with like Play-Doh and Play-Doh, of course, doesn't stay still like temperature changes, things happen.
01:14:04
Speaker
And then there's like all this like different changes.
01:14:07
Speaker
And I was like really interested in what was happening to this like little sculptures that I was doing, like either like things would like fall off a little bit or like.
01:14:17
Speaker
One of them was like a female figure that was very upright.
01:14:22
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, it would just start losing composure.
01:14:26
Speaker
And I was really interested in what was happening in terms of the form.
01:14:30
Speaker
And I started photographing those pieces.
01:14:33
Speaker
And...
01:14:34
Speaker
And I never made much of them.
01:14:37
Speaker
There was another one that was kind of like a face and it started gathering like all this like dust and like stuff.
01:14:44
Speaker
So it kind of like became a weird thing that I also started doing like closeups and photographs, like white on white kind of thing.
01:14:52
Speaker
It was like white Play-Doh on white background.
01:14:55
Speaker
It was like really, really weird.
01:14:56
Speaker
I don't know if it was that good.
01:14:58
Speaker
I don't think it was good.
01:14:59
Speaker
But I think it was really interesting to look in retrospect now.
01:15:05
Speaker
I was telling Alex that I never thought of it, but I was like really interested in like in the decay of the material, right?
01:15:11
Speaker
Like that was, it was not so much about the forms or like the figures itself, but how they were like kind of like losing its thing.
01:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, I can see why Alex would be interested.
01:15:22
Speaker
That's right up his alley.
01:15:24
Speaker
Entropy, man.
01:15:25
Speaker
Entropy.
01:15:25
Speaker
No, but that's a form of collaboration.
01:15:28
Speaker
You're collaborating with time and material, right?
01:15:31
Speaker
I guess so, yeah.
01:15:32
Speaker
Well, that's great.
01:15:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:36
Speaker
I'd still, I definitely would love to see them.
01:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we'll make some NFTs out of those old pictures, you know?
01:15:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:43
Speaker
Oh.
01:15:45
Speaker
No, I think that's perfect.
01:15:47
Speaker
I think that we have a good amount of time to take a break before we have our panel this evening.
01:15:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's true.
01:15:54
Speaker
Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us and for agreeing to curate this amazing show.
01:16:00
Speaker
That's up to co co curate.
01:16:02
Speaker
She's a co-curator.
01:16:05
Speaker
Yes.
01:16:06
Speaker
And thank you for talking about your curation process.
01:16:08
Speaker
I mean, I love your ethos and the way that you kind of operate.
01:16:12
Speaker
And it's, I mean, if anybody is interested in curation, they would, they would, they should definitely listen to this episode.
01:16:17
Speaker
Cause it's, I love the way you kind of like,
01:16:20
Speaker
some things fall into place, some things are, it's never a top, it doesn't seem like it's ever a top-down thing that you just kind of like, here's the mission statement thing.
01:16:28
Speaker
It's just kind of finding your way, right?
01:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the way how it works the best for me.
01:16:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:16:36
Speaker
Yeah, but thank you guys for inviting me.
01:16:39
Speaker
It's been a pleasure, an amazing experience, and yes, I'm nothing but thankful.
01:16:46
Speaker
Thank you.
01:16:46
Speaker
Cool.
01:16:47
Speaker
Thanks.
01:16:47
Speaker
Thank you.
01:16:51
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
01:17:01
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at lydianstaternyc on Instagram, and follow us at lydianstater on Twitter.
01:17:08
Speaker
Thanks to Elisa for taking the time to speak to us this week.
01:17:10
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about our projects, visit our website at gtzerickson.myportfolio.com.
01:17:17
Speaker
Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
01:17:21
Speaker
His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
01:17:25
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
01:17:29
Speaker
I know what to do.
01:17:31
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
01:17:32
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
01:17:35
Speaker
I know what to do.
01:17:36
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
01:17:38
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.