Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
Speaker: Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
Speaker: Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
Speaker: I know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be like you.
Speaker: I know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to.
Speaker: This week's guest is Hoidi Chung.
Speaker: Hoidi Chung, born in China, is an artist and researcher currently based in Brooklyn, New York.
Speaker: She holds an MFA in art from Carnegie Mellon University and a BA in architecture and studio art from Rice University.
Speaker: In her practice, Hoidi makes sculptural objects, installations, and systems to examine the spatial and temporal effects of inhabiting both virtual and physical worlds in late capitalism.
Speaker: By reimagining and reconstructing elements from different contexts, including on and offline,
Speaker: She creates works to construct a realm situating in between, intending to articulate the emerging politics and critical issues associated with the ever-expansive merging between the physical and the virtual, the real and the simulated, and the fact and the fiction.
Speaker: Welcome, Hoidi.
Speaker: Hello.
Speaker: Hello.
Speaker: Hi.
Speaker: Can you hear me?
Speaker: Yes, can you hear me?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: How are you?
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: How about yourself?
Speaker: I'm okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: The weather is finally great today.
Speaker: It's amazing, right?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, not great, great, but it's great.
Speaker: After all this, like, you know, cloudy, rainy days, windy days, it's like finally.
Speaker: I haven't been outside, but it looks really nice from the windows.
Speaker: Yeah, same.
Speaker: So good.
Speaker: I was going to say, Joe's running a little bit late.
Speaker: He's just setting up his equipment.
Speaker: Okay, okay.
Speaker: Do I?
Speaker: Is this okay if I just use the... You sound fine, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker: Quick question.
Speaker: How do you properly pronounce your name?
Speaker: Huidi.
Speaker: Huidi?
Speaker: Yeah, I think you're good.
Speaker: Yeah, you're good.
Speaker: No, but not great.
Speaker: Huidi.
Speaker: Huidi?
Speaker: Yes, you're great.
Speaker: That's better.
Speaker: Huidi.
Speaker: Yes, yeah.
Speaker: And then your last name?
Speaker: Xiang.
Speaker: Xiang.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, that's perfect.
Speaker: So the last, the N, the G doesn't, you don't, it's kind of silent?
Speaker: It's like come with the first, like, so it's like, um, that's giving you like that kind of like the back of the pronunciation.
Speaker: I don't know how to describe it, but you know, like, um, like, yeah.
Speaker: I gotcha.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Xiang.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: There's a little bit of a G in there.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's more like backup that like this part of your is this part is making sound.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Hoidi.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So not hoidi like we've been saying.
Speaker: No, I think you sound the same for me.
Speaker: Yeah?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But you were like, yeah, but you were like, pronounced it differently.
Speaker: I thought it was Hui, like Hui Di, and you're saying it's more like Hui Di.
Speaker: Yeah, Hui Di.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: What space are you in?
Speaker: I'm in my apartment right now.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Nice sunlight.
Speaker: That's really nice.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really beautiful sunlight.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm really happy about it.
Speaker: What part do you live?
Speaker: Bastide.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Oh, so you live close to Elisa?
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: awesome and i'm just i'm about to move to my new studio today was supposed to do that like a monday or on sunday but it was like the weather was so disgusting so yeah i'm gonna move into my new studio which is in
Speaker: is Williamsburg.
Speaker: And it has giant windows.
Speaker: So I'm really happy about it.
Speaker: No dungeon anymore.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really nice.
Speaker: I feel like you you you especially your work, it wouldn't matter if you would see sunlight or not.
Speaker: I would imagine just being inside an enclosed area would be fine for a studio.
Speaker: Yeah, it will be fine, but it's just like for me, it's like so much better.
Speaker: As a human being?
Speaker: Yeah, as a human being.
Speaker: Like I feel like my work.
Speaker: But I always prefer naturalized actually.
Speaker: Yeah, interesting.
Speaker: Even though they're like really borne out digital contacts and they're like not really relate to nature.
Speaker: Related to nature.
Speaker: Everything is related to nature, but they're not specifically talking about nature.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: But still, I prefer natural light.
Speaker: Sounds great.
Speaker: Hey, Joe.
Speaker: Hey.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: What we should talk about?
Speaker: We're just going to talk about... Everything.
Speaker: Everything, basically.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's conversational, so it's not like we have anything specific, anything you want to talk about.
Speaker: But the name of the podcast is Arranging Tangerine.
Speaker: Arranging Tangerines, yes.
Speaker: amazing i mean what's the history of this name like how how did you come up with this name that's my first question is i'm always curious about it i i sure maybe maybe maybe this time we'll leave this in for the audience so uh short story or yeah the the name of the podcast is when joe and i were in grad school i had a professor who was taking her time getting a paper back to me
Speaker: I had reached out to the director and then finally she sent me an email.
Speaker: She said, I'm sorry, Alessandro for taking so long, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: She goes, I had tweaked my back arranging tangerines.
Speaker: I didn't ask what that meant.
Speaker: If she was like putting them in the fridge or if she was making a, if she was making a,
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So we left it at that, but I put that phrase in my back pocket, and I thought I'd use it someday.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Here's the day.
Speaker: Yay.
Speaker: Yeah, it also reminds me of my MFA director.
Speaker: He always have like a rose of tangerines on his table in his office.
Speaker: So I was just like, okay.
Speaker: And the tangerines seem to be there for three years, like getting...
Speaker: like decaying every day like every time i was in his office i was like okay they're the same i can't tell they're the same origin like your origin or tender is you never change them so yeah anyway yeah interesting yeah maybe we've come across some kind of like uh illuminati academic illuminati kind of like signifier yeah probably yeah that's most likely that's the secrets yeah yes
Speaker: Well, thank you, Hoi Di Chong, for being on the podcast and also for being in our latest exhibition, Neither Here Nor There, which is currently up until the 13th of October.
Speaker: The 16th.
Speaker: 16th, sorry.
Speaker: Dates are bad for me.
Speaker: And this will come out probably right before the last weekend?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Is that true?
Speaker: That's my goal.
Speaker: So hopefully we'll do it so pushed so that when people come to see Joe and I at the space.
Speaker: Yeah, so if you're listening right now, hop on the train and listen.
Speaker: So you can catch the last two days of the exhibition.
Speaker: Even better.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So, Hoini, tell us, how was your experience with the whole NFT?
Speaker: I know we talked a little bit about it last night.
Speaker: Thanks again on the Insta Live.
Speaker: I thought that was really great.
Speaker: But yeah, in your words, how was your experience as far as being in the show and the work that you submitted and kind of the NFTs that came about from the show?
Speaker: I think in general, I'm just like really enjoying it.
Speaker: the ride i don't know how to describe this experience for me maybe i will just like use the word the ride because it's just like kind of everything's kind of new for me like it's okay everything is sort of new for me it's just like i've heard all like heard about this word all those words like nfp like making work work in
Speaker: about the boundaries between the digital and physical life and everything.
Speaker: But this is the first time to actually do the things, like actually doing NFC work, actually minking stuff by myself, actually engaging the world, actually learn more about the process of making it, and be part of the community, maybe.
Speaker: maybe I'm still not part of the community, but I kind of like feel like I'm entering the door of the community.
Speaker: So it's like definitely like a learning process for me.
Speaker: I think it's really exciting.
Speaker: And also it's just like this work I showed at Lidia Seda right now is part of my ongoing research about play and labor.
Speaker: But it's like a kind of like new page for me, like a new step for me.
Speaker: I've been always thinking about wanting to make it, but it
Speaker: didn't really have opportunity to do that.
Speaker: So this show also pushed me to try this like new directions I wanted to do.
Speaker: So yeah, I think everything is like sort of, like sort of new.
Speaker: It's like the right word to say.
Speaker: It's like, so I think it's really cool.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just like,
Speaker: very nice.
Speaker: I take, like, it's like a lot of, like, I feel like, like, I know all these things, but I actually don't know a lot of these things, so it's good.
Speaker: I also feel like so much of NFTs and kind of, like,
Speaker: crypto in general, but NFTs and like the way that they work is like, it's like soft knowledge, right?
Speaker: Like, like we can understand how the mechanism works to like upload the file and pay the gas to do it, right?
Speaker: But then like, but then like how do those objects exist in the world and how are people and artists using them and sending them and things like that?
Speaker: And I always think of like Instagram,
Speaker: As like when Instagram started right it makes it's really simple you like take pictures and you put them on the internet and you get to see them you get to see other people's all at once right whenever they put them up that's like a really simple premise but then like the community of people who use this thing it morphs into this like like social force that is using the tool and like distribution and promotion and like all of these kinds of things that.
Speaker: you couldn't like anticipate how it was going to play out when it started and i think i mean twitter is the same way like who who could have guessed that twitter would devolve into like uh these like back and forth fights all the time between people and that's like how the algorithm promotes it and all those things and so i i felt like for your work it made total sense that it could live as an nft on the blockchain and that i i think that we think that it should in some fashion but like how that exists i think is such a
Speaker: I don't know, there's like a learning curve to that kind of like soft impact that it has.
Speaker: I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: I think, yeah, I think it totally makes sense.
Speaker: And also where you're talking about like the soft knowledge or how, you know,
Speaker: we as an artist or like me as a beginner, like beginning learner for this field is also like closely tied to the interface like we're being using, like how the surface is presented to us and presented to me.
Speaker: and how the interface is like, I remember before we actually do everything, we have this kind of discussion or meeting about what platforms we want to use and which one makes more sense for us.
Speaker: I think that's also just how the ways to present the surface, what the surface is like.
Speaker: Yeah, it's very contextual, right?
Speaker: It's very contextual around it and how is it being seen and what's the community around that platform feel like.
Speaker: And there's just like, there's so many things that are non-technical, that are non-NFT related that change how the work gets to live in the world.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: And it's still so fresh.
Speaker: So the ride that you're talking about, I think we're still on it too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: or at least trying to like find our path on the ride or take control of the ride a little bit or something but yeah it uh it was fun to see it was fun to see your work translated into that space into the nft space because it clearly like can belong there and then the question is like should it um and i i'd like to think that the answer is yes after kind of like doing this exhibition but yeah i have the same feeling i think
Speaker: It's also, I think we were also talking about this before, it's like how the NFT world is like closely tied to like the gaming world, like the gaming industry and how social with this world of play or like social with this idea of like trading cards, like collectibles and commodity and definitely my words are talking about all the things.
Speaker: So I think it's
Speaker: like how I call my work also sometimes called models and how models is like such a big thing for like the treating cards community or like the toy community.
Speaker: So yeah, I think it's definitely for me, I think it makes perfect sense.
Speaker: And also I'm like always really interested in this idea of like what's the meaning of like making digital objects and
Speaker: like how digital objects should exist.
Speaker: So I guess it's like, it definitely makes sense for me to explore the world of NFT, at least try to make an NFT by myself first, and then we can see how the thing can live on by itself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we also maybe talked about this at the first studio visit we had, but
Speaker: about how the gaming community has kind of like pushed like digital assets forward in a way that probably wouldn't have happened without the gaming community but also that like most gamers kind of hate stuff you have to buy in the game right is that is that still true like there's like a pushback against I can't remember what the word for it is in games when you have to like buy
Speaker: I don't think it's like they hate to buy assets.
Speaker: There's like, okay, so there's like a complicated thing behind it.
Speaker: It's like, yes, everybody hates to buy things, but in order to get free things, either you have to do a lot of labors or for example, grinding is born out of that.
Speaker: In order to get this amount of money, just grind through the game over and over and over again, get you more money, more assets, or next level of the game.
Speaker: But the tricky thing about it is you can transfer this labor or impose this labor on other people, on other gamers.
Speaker: There's definitely a lot of gamers are buying the gaming digital assets using the physical assets, using the actual currency to buy other people's labor.
Speaker: So they're buying other people's
Speaker: outcomes of other people writing the games so i i yes from surface level they're refusing to pay something in the game or like following the in-game rules but at the same time they're like exploit other people's labor outside the game um yeah like um the chinese like the the idea is like a golden farm it's like um this is the idea of like
Speaker: So in the massive online game,
Speaker: multiplayer, massive multiplayer online games.
Speaker: There's like ideas of like Golden Farm.
Speaker: So it's like basically it's like in a developing country, like specifically in China, there's like a lot of like people like working in this like gold farms.
Speaker: They basically just like underpay labor to grind through this game over and over again to make the game assets, no matter it's like currency in the game or like the levels or like really special assets in the game.
Speaker: You cannot like just get through from
Speaker: spending the money like you have to spend how much like time inside of it in order to get all the special items right and then they're like working in this like gaming room and then they will sell this game like all this gaming items in the real world to the gamers from like for example gamers in the united states or gamers who can pay for all the things so it's like always inside the like those are the boundaries but there's like the crossing between the boundaries or
Speaker: really problematic and complicated, but at the same time, really fascinating.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And like mirrors how, you know, physical production works in the world, right?
Speaker: It's like people are out there being underpaid to do work, to create these items and products that people will buy because they have money and they don't like nobody could like make their own TV.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I mean, maybe you could, but like you'd have to learn a lot and it would take a long time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I guess I'm curious, so as an artist now who is making digital assets, how you feel about using that mechanism?
Speaker: Because obviously it's different in the arts, right?
Speaker: You're producing a cultural product that is meant to be artwork, which is an object, and it's purchased by somebody who wants to own that artwork.
Speaker: It's the same mechanism as these kind of digital assets.
Speaker: And so I'm just curious if you have any thoughts about that.
Speaker: And I know you said the gaming thing is problematic.
Speaker: And I'm curious to hear more about the problematic, how you feel and how you're connected to that.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's a bad question, but I think I mostly said what I meant to.
Speaker: No, it's a really good question.
Speaker: I'm thinking about that too, like the digital assets.
Speaker: What's the difference between this artwork we're calling and the actual gaming objects, like in games?
Speaker: What's the difference between my sculpture, digital sculpture, versus the sculpture I can collect it from, for example, Animal Crossing?
Speaker: True.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So I think that's also really interesting.
Speaker: And also like how, I think we'll talk about this a little bit during our Instagram live.
Speaker: It's like how we are like part of like this,
Speaker: bigger world or like the overarching world all the time, no matter where art is or not.
Speaker: Like, because I'm thinking about my work and like some texture I've, I use or like found online, like created by someone, I don't even know, like they just like put, they put the, like the textures or like the materials, like the rendering materials, like online for free or like as open source materials or,
Speaker: they are some something I have to buy like and I buy them and I use that materials in my work and then I like publish my digital asset which is like so much more expensive than the actual materials I purchased but they are like such a really important part of my work so it's like pretty much the same right like as a sculptor I like buy a go-to
Speaker: like Home Depot to buy an MDF and use the MDF and hire someone to CNC and MDF for me.
Speaker: And then I presented this MDF thing as artwork in the gallery.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: I think I've been like thinking about this too, like how this thing is like,
Speaker: how it manifested the things.
Speaker: But I think at least what I can do is acknowledge every aspect we're doing or like kind of like respond to that or be conscious about all the things I've been working with or like what, which steps I'm in.
Speaker: It's like change, it's like endless change and how I participated and how I can be better.
Speaker: Even though I think better is like a bad word, like,
Speaker: but how I can be more conscious about each steps I've been involving in.
Speaker: So I also kind of feel like it's really nice for this description because I have more time.
Speaker: have more time to actually learn about NFT and have more time to like think about, to think about digital assets or like to think about me, myself as a digital artist or the artists who created digital assets.
Speaker: It's just like, it's a process.
Speaker: I'm still digesting and processing it, but I think it's really good because I have like, I feel like this like slower, like this is like a slower process for me.
Speaker: And making art is also like making, like right now making the digital art, making me really slow down to think about it.
Speaker: Like I was thinking about when I was playing Animal Crossing New Horizons, this live simulation game on Switch.
Speaker: As a gamer, I was like,
Speaker: always want to collect more stuff, like more objects.
Speaker: Like it's like, I didn't really think about it.
Speaker: I'm just like, okay, I have to own all the stuff.
Speaker: Like I have to, like, for example, I'm really obsessed.
Speaker: I was really obsessed with the elephant slide in Animal Crossing.
Speaker: So we're just like, okay, I have to collect all the colors of the elephant slides.
Speaker: So it's just like, oh my goal for that.
Speaker: several days it was like I have to like meet as many as gamers I can I can meet and to like collect all the in order to collect all the colors of the elephant slide but I really didn't really think about it that but right now when I as an artist I'm creating all those objects in different color ways it do like elongated the process of me like doing all these different colors of like thing I was like okay what's the meaning of like
Speaker: create different colorways, what's the meaning of creating multiple of them, what's the meaning of create five editions of the same object, why we have to have 10 objects instead of have one object in there, like what's the whole thing.
Speaker: It's like I don't necessarily have answers to all the questions I have or like, but I guess it's just like because like
Speaker: I become the creator of the whole thing.
Speaker: It's like, becomes like, I ask more questions and this like slow me down.
Speaker: Then I'd be more clear about how I'm actually participating in this and how problematic I am sometimes, like, right?
Speaker: So I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, if you had all the answers to the questions, they're not questions, right?
Speaker: And then it wouldn't be any fun at all.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, you can't get outside of the system that we're in.
Speaker: So all you can do is like, it's kind of like work within it in whatever way feels sincere or engaging or whatever, whatever word you want to use about that, about that system.
Speaker: So you use the word acknowledge, which I think is nice.
Speaker: Because that's like, I feel like that's like baseline, right?
Speaker: That's what we can do is acknowledge the kind of mechanisms and forces that are happening.
Speaker: And one of the things you had talked about was your, you like kind of like price out each work based on materials and labor, and you have like, and you have a rate for yourself, but I don't remember what the rate is.
Speaker: Is it just like a rate you choose?
Speaker: Or is it connected to something?
Speaker: It's a rate I choose.
Speaker: Like how much you get paid for your labor for each work that you make.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, is that connected to something or is it just like a flat rate?
Speaker: It's like a flat rate, but you know, there's like a lot of reference points, like the wage and like other, like I've been working on a lot of like freelance job right now.
Speaker: So I will also just like average that to think about my artist labor compared with my other labor as when I was working, working at other jobs.
Speaker: So yeah, that's kind of like how I'm like,
Speaker: make it as at least logical to myself.
Speaker: Like, so I have like spreadsheets there to like calculate everything.
Speaker: And then people who are buying works know exactly how much they're paying you.
Speaker: Like, I mean, they know how much the dollar amount is if they buy it, but like they know
Speaker: how many hours it took or how much the materials cost for all those things.
Speaker: And I think that's like, that's like an interesting and nice step to take because in the regular world outside of art objects, you don't know how much stuff costs to make usually, you know, how much the markup is and who's getting paid what and all those things.
Speaker: So it's like,
Speaker: Yeah, I think I actually learned this from digital fabrication.
Speaker: Because when you're working with CNC machines or laser cut machine or 3D printer, they always give you an estimated time.
Speaker: So you can accurately document how many minutes you've been spending on one object, which is really hard to calculate.
Speaker: if I'm doing some handmade stuff, I guess.
Speaker: Because you can time yourself for sure.
Speaker: But I learned that from, weirdly, from all these machines I've been working with.
Speaker: I'm just like, OK, you gave me a time.
Speaker: And then I have this time I can document it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And if it's data, you're going to collect it, even if you don't know what you're going to use it for.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You'll find some reason to have the data later.
Speaker: Or all of the elephants or whatever.
Speaker: The more we talk here, the more it seems like an obvious conclusion would be for you to produce some kind of video game that's not a money grab, but it's some kind of comment on labor.
Speaker: I mean, it would be a very interesting enterprise for you to think about in the near future.
Speaker: Yeah, I always...
Speaker: I kind of feel like I should do that.
Speaker: No, I'm not going to underpin other people.
Speaker: Like, never.
Speaker: And I feel like I will underpin myself to be a video game by myself.
Speaker: That's the only way out, I kind of feel like.
Speaker: So that's why I feel like, oh, it's not the time for me to make a video game.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: So that's like a... Yeah, but I'm like... I'm... Okay, so I use videos in my work, but they're never my own videos.
Speaker: And I also use, like, a video game, like, screenshots for sure in my work, but I never make video games.
Speaker: Or, like, I've been engaging with animations for...
Speaker: a lot in my work, but I never make animation.
Speaker: Everything becomes object or sculpture.
Speaker: So I've been also thinking about that too.
Speaker: I'm just like, OK, I guess it's just like sculpture becomes my language more.
Speaker: So I like it tended to translate all the things into the objects and the object speaks.
Speaker: But I do feel like, yeah, maybe one day if I can figure out something, I definitely want to make my own video game.
Speaker: And it will be like.
Speaker: We can help.
Speaker: I will let you know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was going to say that's interesting because with your talk last night, you were talking about the translation between the physical and the digital, how important that is for you and how you take that into consideration.
Speaker: Specifically, the work that was in the show that's currently up that everyone should go check out.
Speaker: both the objects and the digital objects all they both work singularly they i don't think they necessarily need each other but when you do when you when you figure out and you kind of like figure out that one is kind of like the unconstructed view of the other uh it just adds another layer and it just makes it the the parts add up to so much more than just two different one digital object and the physical object and you're talking about the translation
Speaker: um can you talk can you talk a little bit about that process and how that informs your work as far as when you think something should kind of morph into something more uh object-based versus digital i think so like before this work um all my work i've been like working on is like
Speaker: in digital and physical space, they're like the same thing.
Speaker: Like I've been doing a lot of like comparison between my work in digital space and physical space and look exactly the same.
Speaker: Or like they, like I blur, like I intentionally, like when I document my work in the physical space, I intentionally like Photoshop them to make it their looks like, or like to catch a perspective or angles to make it look really like a digital renderings.
Speaker: So in that way, I kind of feel like I wanted to
Speaker: blurred the idea of this before and after between the digital and physical space.
Speaker: So this tightly relates to how I make my work.
Speaker: As I said, I heavily rely on digital fabrication.
Speaker: So it's always starting from 3D modeling something in digital space and then fabricate them using all these machines.
Speaker: And then they turn out to be a physical object.
Speaker: But that's like a one series of translation, right?
Speaker: From the digital space to the physical space.
Speaker: But I wanted to say it's not like the ending, this end point's never just like a sculpture in the physical space.
Speaker: Like it translates back to the digital world.
Speaker: Like the simplest example is just like I document the physical sculpture and most of the people see my work from my Instagram, like from like the digital space.
Speaker: image of the sculpture they never get opportunity to see the physical things um so like for me this translation is always happening like two weeks or like multiple ways multiple directions and it's also happening in my life as well like i
Speaker: Goyang Kuo- grow up with the Internet as I always have like this like multiple existence on different platforms, no matter their physical platforms of digital platforms and I always like leaving in between all this like different interface.
Speaker: Goyang Kuo- So I wanted to acknowledge that and so.
Speaker: for this work so there's previously I think my strategy is okay I'm just going to create the two things and they look like like they're like no differences between them and they're just like trick like trick like I know I just like really love enjoying like photoshop them together it's like oh okay you're no way to tell which one is which and um
Speaker: But for Lydian Stater, like I said, it's like a new exploration for me because I wanted to really focus on the process of translation and the process of becoming and in both directions.
Speaker: So that's why in this show, the sculptures manifest themselves in different states.
Speaker: But there's no, actually there's, even though I keep referring them as like, I'm assembled in physical space and now symbol in visual space, but we know it's not like this always.
Speaker: Like for example, when we buy furniture on Ikea, you always would just like see this like rendering of the assembled objects online.
Speaker: And we're just like, okay, I love this table or I love this bookshelf.
Speaker: And then we ordered it online or we'll pick it up in,
Speaker: at IKEA.
Speaker: And then we got this like flat box with all the assembled components.
Speaker: And then we assemble the components together and it becomes like maybe it will match or not match the thing actually online or the intended like objects.
Speaker: So for me, this is not like, okay, the assembled thing comes first.
Speaker: It's actually we manifest the assembled objects already in our brain.
Speaker: And then we're trying to assemble that things to match the image in our brain or match the image in IKEA's brain, IKEA's brain, IKEA's web page.
Speaker: And so, yeah, that's like the...
Speaker: I've been thinking about all this furniture I've been assembled or the toys I've been assembled when I was little and how there's no, they're constantly in this translations or becoming moments in my brain.
Speaker: So I just wanted to invite viewers to participate in this process as well.
Speaker: like they can manifest this process in their brain, like when they're viewing the work.
Speaker: So I was really excited when I learned we're going to have like VR goggles that's like in the actual space.
Speaker: And like during the Instagram live, we're also talking about how
Speaker: It's really, really important to actually see the work in the space because you've got to experience the two worlds at the same time.
Speaker: For me, it's really exciting because I'm just like, oh, yes, because through taking on, taking off and walking the space in the digital world and walking the space in the physical world, it's actually, I feel like the viewers can be part of it, part of the translation process.
Speaker: for me, I think is more inclusive than the previously what I've been doing.
Speaker: It's like, okay, I've been doing this to similar things.
Speaker: And yeah, that's fancy.
Speaker: And I kind of feel like the viewers who excluded from this process, I just presented the outcome for them.
Speaker: And it's like, okay, obviously there's no, like there's a lot of translation happening here, but that's this outcome.
Speaker: But I feel like from now on, for my future projects, I want the translation to speak for itself more.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Yeah, I've never thought about, this is just going back to Ikea, that there is no true Ikea object for those things that are the same, right?
Speaker: Like somebody at the Ikea store has to put those things together to put them in the showroom.
Speaker: They don't show up created.
Speaker: So it's like, sure, they're probably better at doing it for how it's supposed to be by Ikea standards.
Speaker: But there's still a person, just like I am, who's putting together Ikea furniture in the store.
Speaker: I love the idea that there's a platonic ideal of the perfect assembled, whatever it is, table, whatever.
Speaker: Right, but it doesn't exist.
Speaker: It's impossible to reach.
Speaker: I mean, you're very detail-oriented, so I imagine if you ever do assemble IKEA furniture, sometimes the sides are a little bit off, or sometimes there's a mismatch in the hole, or sometimes, you know, it's never perfect, right?
Speaker: Never perfect, never perfect.
Speaker: It's just like the perfect thing is only existing instruction, like the joy, the line joy.
Speaker: It's the only perfect one.
Speaker: And it also, it reminded me that recently Ikea has implemented, or maybe, I don't know if Ikea does it.
Speaker: Amazon has it.
Speaker: I assume Ikea does now, but you can AR drop the furniture into your space to see how it feels, just like you can do with the NFTs that you made.
Speaker: And so I kind of love the idea of like,
Speaker: your digital NFTs being, you know, like the IKEA shop where you can like if you want to actually buy one of your physical sculptures because you can like drop it in your in your room and like see if it feels good there and then order and then order the kit card and assemble it.
Speaker: Which I don't you haven't actually like sold any kit cards, have you as like as kit cards that people get to assemble themselves or have you?
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: OK.
Speaker: Is that ever something?
Speaker: Because I would buy one if that's ever something that you make.
Speaker: I definitely want to make the key card.
Speaker: I think the key card is going to be really fun.
Speaker: It's just like, yeah.
Speaker: At least as a fun object or project, I would definitely want to do that.
Speaker: And I was really looking forward how people can assemble them.
Speaker: I mean, there's like a lot of people intentionally assemble IKEA in the wrong way and because like creative projects.
Speaker: And I think that's amazing.
Speaker: Like, yeah, it's great stuff with all this like materials provided by IKEA.
Speaker: So I can have like, I can have my own version of one of your works.
Speaker: I'll have the sea shovel saw, but it'll be all like messed up.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: That'd be cool.
Speaker: That'd be so cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Speaking of materials, how do you go about choosing your materials?
Speaker: Because you mentioned MDF, you mentioned Home Depot, you mentioned 3D printed.
Speaker: Printed, yeah.
Speaker: Materials, I love all the fake plastic materials.
Speaker: So that's why I feel like I'm really into MDF because MDF is basically just fake wood.
Speaker: like wood powders and I remember when I was at undergrad our workshop is like MDF was forbidden in our workshop because they're just like too toxic the powder will go everywhere so we can't
Speaker: couldn't even use MDF.
Speaker: I was like, ooh, dangerous materials.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: So I love MDF because also MDF is like so smooth, right?
Speaker: It's like not even the wood.
Speaker: So it's just like, so it's, and also it's like really, really widely used in digital fabrication.
Speaker: So that's why I love it.
Speaker: And 30 printed plastic, yes, it also goes with my obsession with plastics.
Speaker: And I think in my previous iteration of this sea shovel saw, I also used like the wood pattern printed on clear acetate.
Speaker: And then I clip the acetate onto the actual wood board I found because I was like, okay, I couldn't find the ideal wood.
Speaker: I want to use.
Speaker: So I just download the image of the wood from online and print it on clear acetate.
Speaker: There's another idea of like fake wood.
Speaker: So I guess I just like play with this idea of like fake wood.
Speaker: different iterations.
Speaker: Like there's another fake wood I've been using, it's like a wood POA, so it's like a 3D printing materials, but it's like made out of like, I believe it's like 40% wood powder and 60% POA.
Speaker: So it's like also plastic wood, it's pretty much like MDF.
Speaker: And other things like I've been always using the foam covered with concrete to mimicking the concrete blocks, 3D printed part covered with concrete, also mimicking concrete.
Speaker: So they're super lightweighted, but they look like concrete.
Speaker: Is that how the bases are in the works in the show?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So they're super lightweighted.
Speaker: Yeah, they're coming from two things, like, for one, it's because I'm such a weak person, so I cannot lift, like, heavy stuff, but I always want to use concrete in my work.
Speaker: So I was like, okay, better to think about a better way to, like, actually using concrete, but it's, like, manageable for myself.
Speaker: I'm actually, okay, I'm actually learned this technique from a Halloween YouTube video.
Speaker: okay halloween is my favorite this season because like people always upload amazing halloween youtube videos online about how they're making props in their back front yard um so i learned this technique from a couple they're trying to make this giant pumpkin to put on in their front yard so they use the foam to carve out the pumpkin and there was like
Speaker: So and they were like, oh, they have to be waterproof or like they have to survive for at least one month.
Speaker: So they found this concrete called Flex Bond, which is like a really like smooth, like cement thing.
Speaker: And it's like using to fill in the gap between the towels in your bathroom.
Speaker: So it's really smooth and really sticky.
Speaker: And they use that materials to cover the whole foam.
Speaker: pumpkin.
Speaker: It looks so amazing.
Speaker: It's like giant concrete pumpkin.
Speaker: But they painted it using the orange color eventually.
Speaker: I was like, no!
Speaker: But anyway, so ever since then, I was like, okay, this is amazing.
Speaker: I'm going to stop that technique in my work.
Speaker: And I've been using that for almost every work right now.
Speaker: It's just so amazing.
Speaker: I love that material.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Was the first time you used that for the cheese column?
Speaker: Yeah, the moving column work.
Speaker: That is amazing, by the way.
Speaker: Every time I see that video, it brings a smile to my face.
Speaker: It's a really funny word.
Speaker: I'll put a link on the show notes.
Speaker: Go ahead if you want to describe it.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: It's basically just like a site-specific installation in a renovated industrial space.
Speaker: And the space has like a, so we renovated the whole space into our space, but there's a column standing in the middle of the space.
Speaker: Everybody loves and hates it because it's kind of like in the middle of open plan.
Speaker: And every time I would try to make an art project within it, we need to think about it.
Speaker: We either need to ignore it or we need to like incorporate it as a part of our project.
Speaker: So that project was just started from a really simple idea.
Speaker: It was like, I want to do something to this column and it has to be funny.
Speaker: And so I tried to animate the column.
Speaker: But I cannot actually do the things to the actual columns, otherwise the space is going to collapse.
Speaker: And so I was like, so I learned this from animation, right?
Speaker: Like from classic cartoons, it's just like, okay, if I cannot animate this column, I just make a duel for it.
Speaker: I just make a twin, like another dancing partner for it so it can dance.
Speaker: So that's how that work comes.
Speaker: life becomes like life cartoon so you created a column that looked pretty much almost identical to the real column yeah the dimension is the same yeah and you put it on a train track and the column literally goes around the central column yes
Speaker: no it's fantastic yeah the train is it's like power wheels for kids um so and uh i was like i found this i was like because i also this is coming from my obsession with all this low technology or technology using toys so i was like and i at that time i didn't have any budget to actually build or track for myself so i bought that train and then i modified the train and then i put the column on top of it
Speaker: And because of the train cannot hold that way, the column is a big column.
Speaker: So I use foam and then I use the concrete cover.
Speaker: So it looks like a concrete column, but it's actually not that heavy.
Speaker: It's heavy because it's really tall.
Speaker: And so I have to also build structure inside of it.
Speaker: So everything's kind of like a problem solving.
Speaker: I'm making that work.
Speaker: And the sound is actually, I would encourage everyone to see this video to turn on the sound if possible, because the sound is actually a really surprising element for myself as well.
Speaker: Like I didn't, yes.
Speaker: And back to what we're talking about labor.
Speaker: It's like a torturing, it's, thank you so much.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like a, it's like torturing, laboring sound of that train.
Speaker: It's supposed, it's not supposed to make sounds like that.
Speaker: But it's like the acoustic environment of that space, as well as it's like the load, it's like much more than you should take.
Speaker: So it's like making this like really
Speaker: torturing sound in this space.
Speaker: No, no, no, not really, actually.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just like, it held on OK, it just becomes really slow, and it making really, really bad sound.
Speaker: And I think the battery is running faster than it should be.
Speaker: But it's OK.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: Yeah, a toy is OK.
Speaker: It's burning out, but it's not.
Speaker: It's not burnt out, yeah.
Speaker: You did other works with columns too, where they were kind of like these resting on like rocking chairs or... Yes.
Speaker: How did that come about?
Speaker: It's called Column Hold.
Speaker: It's also just like a kind of like, I kind of feel like it's compared with this animated column.
Speaker: That one's also about this like indeterminate like...
Speaker: narratives about the column because I will like always thinking about the column is the one like determine the space, determine the the I don't know, like the circulation or the arrangement of the space or like the how the people are actually moving around space.
Speaker: So it becomes like the thing like in the space.
Speaker: But just like Kalamahol is also talking about
Speaker: maybe we need to rethink about this like functional objects or like in the past, it's like totally representational or it's like, yeah, it's like functional but at the same time, the representation always like have really meaning to the space or to the architecture.
Speaker: So I think that work is like, it's like a second iteration of the chief scholar of the moving column.
Speaker: It's also using another format to talk about,
Speaker: the space, like the constantly each change power dynamic between our body and the space around us.
Speaker: And yeah, so that's kind of like second iteration.
Speaker: And also like kind of, it's also inspired by Tom and Jerry, the cartoon.
Speaker: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention about it.
Speaker: The cheese column is inspired by Tom and Jerry.
Speaker: Because in Tom and Jerry, the cat and mouse scenario is not just about the predator and the prayer, right?
Speaker: Like they're like more like roommates, like they're sharing one space and there's like not necessarily like the mouse is always indominus or the cat is always the indominus.
Speaker: There's like constant power dynamics change between the two sides.
Speaker: That's how the story can goes on and on and on, right?
Speaker: And for me,
Speaker: Cat and mouse scenarios or Tom and Jerry is a perfect metaphor for our body and architecture around us because I kind of, I came from architecture school, another background knowledge is like, I always kind of feel like I'm the designer of the space or I'm the occupant of the space.
Speaker: So I have the power control, the constructed space around me.
Speaker: But at the same time, my body is always shaped by this constructed like world around me.
Speaker: So like this column in the renovated space, it dictated our movement, circulation, and our regiment artwork, and it decided how our way artwork should go in the space.
Speaker: So I think it's like, it's a really beautiful metaphor for that relationship.
Speaker: So that's like how she's column is coming together.
Speaker: It's like the cat in the column chasing after the mouse in the middle.
Speaker: And when the column on hold, the one on the record chair is also inspired by one scene in Tom and Jerry's like when Tom is waiting outside the mouse door, waiting outside of Jerry's house and like always waiting for there and waiting for something to happen.
Speaker: It's always the opening scene of Tom and Jerry.
Speaker: If you think about it, it's just like Tom waiting outside the door and when the mouse is coming out, something happens.
Speaker: So I was trying to capture that tension in that work while like the cheese column is more like chasing after seeing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know, Joe, you probably have a question, but I just wanted to thank you for recontextualizing the idea of a column because I spent my past life in audiovisual design and columns were always a problem.
Speaker: There were sight line problems, especially if you have screens.
Speaker: Coming into a sight survey and seeing a column in the middle of a room is a nightmare for an audiovisual designer.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: I didn't think about that, but I did have a nightmare when I was doing architecture school.
Speaker: It was like I had this like project, like assignment I need to design.
Speaker: It's like we need to like place columns in the space.
Speaker: And then I had this nightmare about like column chasing after me.
Speaker: So I was just like,
Speaker: Damn, like I always feel like I'm the one chasing after the columns and trying to figure out where they should be.
Speaker: Like I would order them like you should be here, you should be here.
Speaker: But actually my life is they're always chasing after me.
Speaker: I mean, at baseball games, right, you can buy the seats that are behind the column, right?
Speaker: So your sight lines ruined a little, but the seats are always cheaper.
Speaker: So in that case, if you're trying to get some cheap tickets, the column could be your friend, I think.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: Instead of being the enemy all the time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have a couple of questions, but one of them was...
Speaker: have you ever done exhibitions where you actually never get to go to the show and, and like a team is fabricating the stuff for you on site and they document it and you never really get to see the work itself?
Speaker: Has that happened?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: The column of hold is the thing because it happened in China during COVID.
Speaker: So that's the one that I thought maybe I was like, it would be really hard to get over there during that time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Yeah, I just love that removal already.
Speaker: Like there's so much like removal and translation in your work already.
Speaker: What was it like working like that in that process?
Speaker: Was the outcome what you expected?
Speaker: Was it hard to work that way for you as somebody who likes to have control over materials?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm just curious.
Speaker: There's a lot of compromises to make, but there's like other reasons, not just like the fabrication reasons and like remote working condition reasons.
Speaker: I'm not going to talk about this today.
Speaker: Yeah, but relating to that question, I think the one thing I learned from that process is like, that was my first time to actually write down all the instructions, right?
Speaker: Like, I feel like I'm writing down the IKEA furniture instructions because everything is in my computer.
Speaker: Like, everything is like digitally made.
Speaker: And they're like, I render the whole thing and they're like creating models.
Speaker: But then I have to like take down all the parts.
Speaker: And so they're like, some of them are really easily to like digital fabricate.
Speaker: Like they can just like put the files in the CNC machine or like they can just follow the files, the drawings that can easily be fabricated in workshop.
Speaker: like, but there's like a lot of communication to make, right?
Speaker: Like what kind of wood we're using?
Speaker: And obviously we're like following different standards in China and here in the U.S. So it's like impossible to me
Speaker: sometimes it's impossible to communicate that part because they know better than I do.
Speaker: So that's like the unexpected things I have to learn.
Speaker: Like I felt like they wrote the perfect PDF instructions, like they're so much better than IKEA instruction.
Speaker: And then it turned out to be actually the work that bad, that's great.
Speaker: It's just like,
Speaker: there's a lot of communication happen.
Speaker: But yeah, it's really, it's, it's like, it's definitely indeed a learning process for me.
Speaker: It's like working with other people and communicate with fabricator and they definitely have their own, like they think there's a better way to make something.
Speaker: And I, as a
Speaker: fabricated most of my work by myself, I feel like there's a better way to do things.
Speaker: So it's like back and forth.
Speaker: And then that's the moment when I realized how helpful instruction can be and how unhelpful instruction can be.
Speaker: It's like, sometimes it's like, oh, we can just read the instruction.
Speaker: And they're just like, they don't make any sense.
Speaker: I was like, I think they make perfect sense, but no, they're not.
Speaker: And so we have to sit down to have this like 30 minutes phone call.
Speaker: to clarify a lot of things I wrote down, which I think is perfect.
Speaker: So that makes me to really also think about all these instructions, like to think about IKEA instructions.
Speaker: There is a lot of decision making, even though I always complaining about how bad their instruction
Speaker: are, but they're good, actually.
Speaker: Like, and I, yeah, they're simple.
Speaker: They're like crucial.
Speaker: They're like capturing the crucial steps.
Speaker: But so I was like, oh, there are actually a lot of decision making to make.
Speaker: These are not just like one, like one designer just like, okay, this steps you have to put in there.
Speaker: Gotta be a group of people who actually work specifically on the instructions to make their clear and make really obvious and really simple to read for everybody.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: So that's the most important lesson I learned from that exhibition actually, is like how to write instructions and how to talk to other people.
Speaker: And don't take the instruction, like don't think the instruction is perfect, then no it's not.
Speaker: Um, yeah, I, uh, I, I worked with a math teacher once who did, when they talked about order of operation and algebra, they would do, they would do an assignment where they had to write instructions for making peanut butter and jelly.
Speaker: So every, every kid would write the instructions for it.
Speaker: And then the teacher would take each kids and try and make the sandwich using their instructions.
Speaker: And it would just be like, it's like, it's like total mess.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And, you know, it's, like, supposed to, like, teach them about communication and following steps or whatever.
Speaker: But I feel like that's, it's, like, no matter what you, like, you know what your instructions mean, but nobody else does, even if you think they're perfect.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: Which is why IKEA uses pictures, right?
Speaker: Instead of, I mean, also because of, you know, translation, but pictures are, like, really simple and easy to interpret, or they can be.
Speaker: Think of how long it's taken Ikea to get to this point.
Speaker: They're experts at it now.
Speaker: Teams and teams of people over years and years, they did have language before, but I think they've taken it out because they're so international.
Speaker: But even with their skill set, my wife will look at them and not be able to translate that into an object.
Speaker: Sometimes they are bad instructions, right?
Speaker: It's like the thing.
Speaker: Yeah, or it's actually wrong.
Speaker: It's like they gave you one step before the other one or something.
Speaker: And then my favorite is the like Ikea knockoff like everyone thinks that they can do the same thing and then you get another object from a different company and they give you these instructions and I it's just like you you just need to go back to the picture.
Speaker: It's a free for all.
Speaker: Yeah exactly they're so bad.
Speaker: Yeah I think yeah the instruction that whole lesson I learned and
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: And I think that that expression also, like I learned from that, it's like to prepare your digital files in a proper way is so important.
Speaker: It's like, and how to prepare that, like, should I separate?
Speaker: Yeah, it's like how to name the layers and how to like separate different materials into like, is that a lot more logical to separate materials or like separate the components or like how
Speaker: to make that process more understandable and clear.
Speaker: I separate different materials and then I realized it's not actually good to do that.
Speaker: It's like, maybe I should separate the components so they understand the book better how to assemble them together eventually.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've noticed a lot of your recent work, you've added motion to the pieces.
Speaker: I guess my question is, how did that come about?
Speaker: And is...
Speaker: Is that something?
Speaker: Yeah, it's just when do you when do you decide that some object actually needs some kind of like some kind of like a thing to drive besides like the column being driven by a train?
Speaker: You actually have these objects are actually moving and making interesting sounds in conjunction with one another.
Speaker: Yeah, motions.
Speaker: Repetitive motions are really important for me.
Speaker: Like the things like, for example, I've been obsessed with the fortune cats waving arm.
Speaker: It's like doing this the whole time.
Speaker: And like the seesaw is like doing, even though the seesaw in my work are not actually moving, but they're suggesting like this moving movement.
Speaker: or like the column is like running a circle or like everything.
Speaker: It's like this kind of repetitive motions are really important for me because for one, I think they're like suggesting
Speaker: this kind of like a burning out labor, like they're trying to do something and always like a running a circle and really repeating every day, like repeating every second.
Speaker: It's like repetitive labor.
Speaker: Like for me, it's like really important part of my research.
Speaker: And also it's about, I think it's tended like,
Speaker: Okay, back to the fortune cat, like the motion, the fortune cat or waving arm, I think it's like a lot of the, um, associated with this idea of desire and want something, but like the desire is like endless and like, I kind of feel like you never get this enough.
Speaker: Like that motion for me, that fortune cat is like such a cute object, but at the same time, it's such a violent object for me when I'm like thinking about how much the desire and how much
Speaker: this motion, this gentle motion is actually trying to grab money inside the property.
Speaker: I think the whole idea of this repetitive power and how this repetitive motions or labors seems really full of boredom.
Speaker: It's like a really minor, but at the same time, it's like a tended to this larger desires.
Speaker: And yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: I think for me, it's like that kind of labor, like endless labor, endless motions are really important.
Speaker: Are you familiar with that episode of The Simpsons where Homer gets like this bird that... The different bird.
Speaker: She did one on the... Oh, you did?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, I did one on that word.
Speaker: Like, yes, the, the, my sister's show, like the work about Animal Crossing, there's like a drinking bird.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That's because of that episode.
Speaker: Oh okay, because in the episode, I just looked it up because I forgot, but like doesn't he use it to do his job for him?
Speaker: It like taps like the keyboard?
Speaker: To push the button.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I think that's so amazing.
Speaker: It's just like how that object becomes.
Speaker: So that work, it's like a work basically there's a fence and on one side it's like that tripping bird I've been using.
Speaker: But
Speaker: That motor is really slow, so it's rotating really slow and it's not actually touching the bottom, it's trying to reach the bottom.
Speaker: It's also a really slow motion, repetitive motion.
Speaker: It's also torturing for someone to be watching it for a really long time.
Speaker: And on the other side of the fence is a fountain.
Speaker: which is like watering the flower the whole time.
Speaker: And it's also kind of like repetitive motions of this like water pump, just pumping water out of the flower.
Speaker: And it's just like the water falling back to the sink.
Speaker: And it's just like always watering the flower.
Speaker: And it's like, there's also kind of like a suggestion, just suggested systems like this,
Speaker: Deepin bird is trying to push the button and it seems like when you push the button you are triggering the watering system, but they're not related.
Speaker: But there's talking about this idea related to, in the video games I always push buttons to do something, but it's not.
Speaker: actually doing anything like it's just like push bottoms like so yeah but yeah i'm so happy you mentioned that episode that was so funny and yeah i remember that from my my youth for sure um
Speaker: I had a materials question, but it's about the iterations of the NFTs in the show that you haven't released yet.
Speaker: And I was wondering if you've chosen your materials for the next, I think you're doing two more maybe?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you chosen, I mean, colors and or materials?
Speaker: Are you still choosing those or are they already kind of completed in your mind?
Speaker: I'm still choosing them.
Speaker: I think I'm doing that every week.
Speaker: I'm just like, okay, this week, what do we need?
Speaker: What's the most?
Speaker: I love how the simple act of changing a few of the colors really changes how the work feels.
Speaker: And that iteration, I think, is really nice and repetitive, as you've been mentioning.
Speaker: But then it also, and I just was looking at the images of the
Speaker: sea shovel saw with like the faux wood on them.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so I don't know if you're doing that for any of the iterations, but if you did, I would love it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It is there.
Speaker: It's like not really, yeah, I think the materials I'm using is not like really obvious there, but the wood is like, I'm changing the wood.
Speaker: Oh, it is there.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, it's there.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I'm trying to change the wood.
Speaker: But yeah, I feel like I should do the tiling as well.
Speaker: Like in the physical sculpture I did previously, I like doing the tiling.
Speaker: Like they're not like.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like five segments of it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I'm trying to make fun of like the scales of the materials we're using to bitmap on the volume.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because they're because they're images of wood or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're never perfect.
Speaker: Like you always just have to like adjust the tiling to make it like perfect and always like labor to trying to fit by the perfect image of wood.
Speaker: But it's fake.
Speaker: Anyway.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Maybe I should do that.
Speaker: I think it's going to be really cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean you should do.
Speaker: whatever you want but yeah um but there was there was one other thing i wanted to say which was like when we talked about um when we talked about kind of like different colors and iterations of the nfts part of that is to like is to like you know like translate and have it be different but part of it is this like it's like a collectible thing right it's like collect them all and so the one of one of the collectors of your first iteration
Speaker: saw the second one and he's like oh man he's like i still like mine but like that one's cool right which is like it's like total it's like total collector mindset right it's like you want to get all of them um which i which i thought was like a really nice sentiment yeah i think that's i learned that from animal crossing ikea and all the things yeah like i said mentioned before about the elephant's life i've
Speaker: like yes I have to get all the colors.
Speaker: No, no but I always just want to try different color they can you can buy the paint there right it can just paint it over and use all the time but no I didn't do that but sometimes but I always have that struggle like what you said about
Speaker: the collector is like, oh, damn, mine is like the white is good, but the black looks really cool too.
Speaker: And like, sometimes they release a pink one.
Speaker: It's like, oh, the pink one is cute.
Speaker: And you know, like that.
Speaker: Having not seen the elephant slide in the game you mentioned, is there an elephant slide in that object that is not the shovel saw?
Speaker: The other object is the elephant slide.
Speaker: That elephant slide is inspired by the animal crossing.
Speaker: Okay, perfect.
Speaker: And did I see somewhere that that was like a self-portrait of some sort?
Speaker: Yeah, that elephant slide is also a self, like I consider it a self-portrait because I love the elephant slide so much.
Speaker: And there's another thing, it's like my last name in Chinese sounds exactly like the elephant in Chinese.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that for me, the elephant is always really fresh.
Speaker: It's like I love elephants as an animal.
Speaker: I know it's a lot of elephant flight and that was like always collect elephants.
Speaker: And so this was why you wanted to get all of them when you started playing.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like your animal.
Speaker: Yeah, my animal.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker: So it's like kind of like self-portrait.
Speaker: And it's like that one also is like a filling elephant slide.
Speaker: So that work is like, so in the game, the elephant is like standing, like it's like, so like the nose is doing this.
Speaker: So you can like slide through, like slide the elephant slide.
Speaker: But in the game, you can never play with the elephant slide.
Speaker: You can only just clack the elephant slide, but you can play, you cannot play.
Speaker: How can you have a name like Elephant Slide and not use it?
Speaker: Yeah, I know, right?
Speaker: I was like, you cannot use it.
Speaker: It's so sad.
Speaker: So I'm making a filling one, which is just like this Elephant Slide is like this way.
Speaker: Like it's like falling down.
Speaker: So that's how that direction, like that direction happened in my iteration of Elephant Slide.
Speaker: And to go back to your youth, I saw this amazing video on your Instagram feed.
Speaker: And I don't know how to say it properly, but it's you playing the instrument.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: With amazing facility.
Speaker: You must have played for a long time to get that.
Speaker: Yeah, I think I played for a while, but I actually hated it.
Speaker: Like my mom always wanted me to play it because she was like, this isn't perfect.
Speaker: This is great.
Speaker: And then I played it as like trying to be good, as good as I could.
Speaker: And then I remember like reached some point, I was just like, I have enough of it.
Speaker: I cannot play it anymore.
Speaker: And my mom was like, okay, fine.
Speaker: So I just never played it again.
Speaker: But when I post that post, when I found out that video in my hard drive, I was like, oh, that's really nice.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: It's really beautiful.
Speaker: I'm actually really good at it.
Speaker: Very good at it.
Speaker: We'll have to link that too, because I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker: I want to see it now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, but after I quit Huzhen, I started to play the flute.
Speaker: And that becomes like more like my, like I picked it.
Speaker: So I was like, I played it more like for leisure.
Speaker: It's not like for like as a hobby, hobby.
Speaker: Like I, so I, the risk hobby is like more like for leisure.
Speaker: So I have like more fun with it, I guess.
Speaker: But I, yeah, but I'm not as good.
Speaker: I'm not really good at food, but I just have more fun.
Speaker: But you like it more.
Speaker: I like it more, yeah.
Speaker: Very cool.
Speaker: What's on the horizon?
Speaker: What are you working on?
Speaker: Do you have other exhibitions coming up soon?
Speaker: Are you working on any big projects?
Speaker: I keep developing this body of work because I wanted to try more.
Speaker: I mean, this exhibition I only showed two.
Speaker: And I definitely wanted to invent more flavor objects and to make more iterations and to see how to manifest the processes.
Speaker: better.
Speaker: I consider this as the first steps of me trying to do the things.
Speaker: There's more in the future.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's what I've been working on right now.
Speaker: I can't wait to see the new ones.
Speaker: Yeah, and oh, there's another work I've been always wanting to make, but I don't know what to make.
Speaker: But I want to share it here because I kind of feel like once I shared it.
Speaker: Yeah, put it out in the world.
Speaker: Once you put it in the world, you have to do it.
Speaker: Yeah, I have to do it, right?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So it's also related to Animal Crossing, but there's like a fighting game called Smash Bros.
Speaker: It's basically just Nintendo like gathering all the different characters from their different titles and they're having like the fighting game.
Speaker: Yuxing Huang, Ph.D.: Games and there's a one character inside smash roll is like called villager so basically the villager from animal crossing and the down movement for villager to kill enemy is.
Speaker: Yuxing Huang, Ph.D.: The villager has to first plant a seed in the ground and use the water can to watering the seed.
Speaker: and the seed grow into a tree.
Speaker: And then the villager has to use the shovel to, like, not the shovel, use the axe to cut down the tree.
Speaker: And the tree is going to fall down on its enemy to kill it.
Speaker: That's a down movement of villager.
Speaker: I was like, this is really extra.
Speaker: Like, I need to talk to this person who designed this move.
Speaker: Like, it's so extra.
Speaker: But this idea of, like, the action of care, which is growing a tree in animal crossing becomes the action of killing in this game, for me, it's, like, really tricky.
Speaker: So I'm, like, I'm still processing the whole process, like, how they design, like, the wall.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: definitely there's something there so I want to dig into it I want to dig into the tree like what's going on with this tree like how this idea of like extreme care transitioning to like extreme is extreme labor and also it's extreme like violence happening in this one action
Speaker: in this tree.
Speaker: So yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker: That sounds really fun.
Speaker: Yeah, and in order to kill the anime, you have to kill the tree.
Speaker: So it's also like how this whole thing, you have to kick it off the tree, and then you have to kill it.
Speaker: I feel like there's some Shakespearean theory around this or something that I don't know enough about.
Speaker: It feels like some philosophical quandary.
Speaker: Yeah, and I also kind of feel like playing Animal Crossing or playing this simulation game can be a lot of... I started paying attention to this idea of care and maintain this and the...
Speaker: like yeah this afterlife of sculpture because previously always just like i create create create more objects and throw them in the exhibition and that's the end of the sculpture which is sad um it's just like how i play animal crossings like i construct the island perfect and then i just throw it there and like this becomes like a floating data somewhere there in the space and um
Speaker: And then I started to think about what the maintenance means here.
Speaker: Occasionally, I still go on my island and then pick out the weeds everywhere to try to maintain the island, trying so hard.
Speaker: But yeah, so I feel like the next step or another project someone definitely want to work is about this.
Speaker: All the things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Love it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can't wait.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: And the exhibition's up for another weekend if we put this out when Alex says he's going to.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So thanks.
Speaker: Sounds good.
Speaker: Thank you, everybody.
Speaker: Look forward to seeing what you have for us in the future.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Okay, cool.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
Speaker: You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at Lydian Stater NYC on Instagram, and follow us at Lydian Stater on Twitter.
Speaker: Thanks to Hoity for taking the time to speak to us this week.
Speaker: If you'd like to learn more about her work, visit our website at shanghoity.com.
Speaker: Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
Speaker: His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
Speaker: And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
Speaker: I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be like you.
Speaker: I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I just know I don't want to be.
