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Arranging Tangerines Episode 39 - A Conversation with Lau Wai
7 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, we talk with Lau Wai about their practice and process with discussions around Chinese naming conventions, the use of (or reference to) mocap suits, the differences between consumer and commercial software, how avatars can represent or misrepresent us, deep fakes, the influence of Hong Kong cinema, hybridity, NFTs, virtual galleries, and what the future holds.
Lau Wai 劉 衛 is a multidisciplinary artist, former photographer, storyteller, teacher, gamer, cat companion and more. Born and raised in Hong Kong and currently based in New York, Lau utilizes photography, moving image, new media, sculptural objects, and installation to investigate how history, fiction, personal memory and virtuality collide in the process of identity formation. Their research and material sources range from personal and historical archives to cinematic imagery and popular culture. Their works are collected by The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (United States); Alexander Tutsek – Stiftung Foundation (Germany) and M+ Museum (Hong Kong), among others. They have exhibited in Europe, Asia, and North America, including Brandts Museum of Art and Visual Culture, Denmark (2016); Power Station of Art, Shanghai (2018); Para Site, Hong Kong (2015, 2018); Tai Kwun Contemporary, Hong Kong (2019, 2021); Kuandu Biennale, Taiwan (2018); Echigo-Tsumari Art Triennale, Japan (2015); The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, United States (2019) and Yokohama Triennale, Japan (2020). They are also a former resident at NARS Foundation, New York and Institute for Electronic Arts, Alfred University, New York.
Links;
Here & Album Extract I am invincible…on the screen / False motion tracking Feed 3.0Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Arranging Tangerines'
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
00:00:05
Speaker
Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
00:00:13
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:14
Speaker
I know what to say.
00:00:16
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:00:18
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:20
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:00:22
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
Meet the Artist: Lao Wai
00:00:34
Speaker
This week's guest is Lao Wai.
00:00:37
Speaker
Lao Wai is a multidisciplinary artist, former photographer, storyteller, teacher, gamer, cat companion, and more.
00:00:43
Speaker
Born and raised in Hong Kong and currently based in New York, Lao utilizes photography, moving image, new media, sculptural objects, and installation to investigate how history, fiction, personal memory, and virtuality collide in the process of identity formation.
Exploring Archives and Imagery
00:00:57
Speaker
Their research and material sources range from personal and historical archives to cinematic imagery and popular culture.
00:01:04
Speaker
Welcome, La Wai.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hey.
00:01:07
Speaker
Hello, Alex.
00:01:08
Speaker
Hey.
00:01:09
Speaker
Hi, Wai.
00:01:10
Speaker
Hi.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hey, does it work?
00:01:13
Speaker
I think I used a Bluetooth to connect to my headset.
00:01:18
Speaker
Can you hear me?
00:01:19
Speaker
I can.
00:01:21
Speaker
Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.
00:01:24
Speaker
Maybe I have to adjust this.
00:01:27
Speaker
Hello?
00:01:30
Speaker
Is it better now?
00:01:32
Speaker
It's better, yes.
00:01:33
Speaker
Okay, of course.
00:01:34
Speaker
I don't know why the other headset is always not working properly.
00:01:41
Speaker
I think it's a choice.
00:01:43
Speaker
I've been having these issues as well.
00:01:44
Speaker
It's a matter of choosing it.
00:01:47
Speaker
Like on the, I don't know, in Zoom, you see that bottom left?
00:01:51
Speaker
Bottom left?
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:53
Speaker
If you have a little arrow key, it lets you choose.
00:01:56
Speaker
If you click it, it selects a microphone.
00:01:58
Speaker
Right, right.
00:01:59
Speaker
So sometimes it defaults to like, sometimes you have a microphone and it defaults to the computer microphone.
00:02:05
Speaker
Oh, that's right.
00:02:06
Speaker
All right.
00:02:07
Speaker
I always miss that.
00:02:08
Speaker
I always like, yeah.
00:02:09
Speaker
Thank you for mentioning that.
00:02:11
Speaker
That sounds better.
00:02:12
Speaker
Okay.
00:02:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:02:17
Speaker
Thank you for working with my schedule.
00:02:20
Speaker
Well, thank you for agreeing to be on our podcast.
00:02:22
Speaker
Of course, of course.
00:02:27
Speaker
Like we said, it's just a quick conversation about the recent work in the actual show.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:36
Speaker
And then kind of about your practice.
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:39
Speaker
But first I wanted to ask you about your... How do you properly pronounce your name?
00:02:46
Speaker
Why?
Cultural Identity and Naming
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, like a question why.
00:02:50
Speaker
And then Lao?
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:52
Speaker
And which one, so why is your first name?
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:56
Speaker
But you put Lao first?
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah, I know it's a little confusing for like the audience, audiences in the United States because my artist name, I've been using Lao Wai as my artist name for like almost like the most of my life in the past like 10 years and such.
00:03:16
Speaker
And like, yeah, so I just wanted to make it consistent, you know.
00:03:24
Speaker
And also like it was interesting that like when I was doing shows in,
00:03:29
Speaker
in mainland China, they would have like a different spelling of my name according to the Mandarin pronunciation.
00:03:39
Speaker
But my birth name, which is in English, which is referring to the Cantonese pronunciation, which is Lao Wai,
00:03:50
Speaker
So in the past 10 years, I have all these different names all around the internet and social media.
00:03:59
Speaker
So it was so confusing.
00:04:01
Speaker
I have a name of Lao Wai and a name of Liu Wei, which is the Mandarin pronunciation.
00:04:08
Speaker
And then the traditional Chinese Chinese
00:04:12
Speaker
name and the simplified Chinese name and then Y. Lao.
00:04:15
Speaker
So I have basically wanted like five like different I don't like press names so I just want to make it more consistent.
00:04:26
Speaker
So what is your preference?
00:04:27
Speaker
So this is very in line with kind of having multiple avatars.
00:04:33
Speaker
Right yeah you're right you're right.
00:04:36
Speaker
But what is your preference?
00:04:39
Speaker
Right now my preference would be Lao Wai as my professional artist name.
00:04:46
Speaker
But personally, I go by Y. So you guys can just call me Y. It's interesting that you bring this up because I'm also starting to think of having a fictional name.
Creating a Fictional Persona
00:05:05
Speaker
as my, just to create like a fictional, I don't know, persona, which is like responding to the character that I made as well.
00:05:14
Speaker
So I don't know, it's like, I'm still thinking about that.
00:05:17
Speaker
Like maybe I should just use a name that it doesn't attach to any nationality or it doesn't show any particular sort of identity.
00:05:29
Speaker
Do you think I should like, do you think I should make that another?
00:05:34
Speaker
I like it.
00:05:35
Speaker
I mean, it just seems like people have automatically done that to you.
00:05:40
Speaker
So now, kind of like you would take control in this instance and then make the fictional name, right?
00:05:46
Speaker
Because people have kind of changed your name, whether you want to or not, right?
00:05:52
Speaker
Right, right.
00:05:53
Speaker
And now you're like, my choice.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's right.
00:05:58
Speaker
That's very interesting.
00:06:00
Speaker
Well, thanks again.
00:06:02
Speaker
Thanks again for being in the show.
00:06:03
Speaker
I think we're probably going to put this episode out next week.
00:06:06
Speaker
So the show won't officially be out, but the people can still request to see the show if they reach out to us.
00:06:14
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:06:14
Speaker
It'll still be in the space.
00:06:16
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:06:17
Speaker
Until when?
00:06:20
Speaker
I don't know.
00:06:22
Speaker
I think we have to talk to you guys.
00:06:24
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:06:24
Speaker
Okay.
00:06:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:06:26
Speaker
You need your suit back, right?
00:06:29
Speaker
Not that urgently, but it would be great if I can have it back in about a week.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:06:37
Speaker
So then that's it.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, but also if there are any others, if there are anyone who wants to see the show, like maybe in the coming few weeks, I'm okay to keep the suit at the space as well.
00:06:52
Speaker
No, we definitely would accommodate your needs.
00:06:54
Speaker
So I mean, even if we don't have to have the suit there, we could still have the video going.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:00
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:02
Speaker
Sounds great.
00:07:04
Speaker
The suit needs to work.
00:07:07
Speaker
I miss the suit.
00:07:10
Speaker
I'm kind of like skinless.
00:07:11
Speaker
But what is it?
00:07:12
Speaker
So the name of that character?
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:20
Speaker
Of the, when you wear the suit.
00:07:22
Speaker
What is that again?
00:07:24
Speaker
Oh, so far I named it as the pre CGI body.
00:07:31
Speaker
I should probably like think of another better name.
00:07:34
Speaker
I think this is, this is a little too long for, for most of the people.
00:07:38
Speaker
That's hilarious.
00:07:42
Speaker
Because, let me see, I had a question here from, oh, sorry, Joe couldn't make it today because Fridays are really busy for him.
00:07:48
Speaker
Okay, okay, it's fine.
00:07:50
Speaker
Thanks for letting me know.
00:07:51
Speaker
He did have some questions, and I think one of them was a relationship to the actual suit.
00:07:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:58
Speaker
He did say, so his question is, how does low-tech production, the fake MoCat suit, but also quirky, deepfakes, chunky modeling, play into your practice?
Artistic Production Values
00:08:08
Speaker
How do you see the significance of this and how would it be different if the production level was really high?
00:08:15
Speaker
Is that of interest to you or is lo-fi required?
00:08:18
Speaker
Oh, that's a really good question.
00:08:20
Speaker
I think when I was starting to be exposed to all this CGI world and the fake AI technologies and such, it was around 2017, 2018, when I was trying to incorporate those elements in my work.
00:08:45
Speaker
At first I'm trying to make it into a really high production looking sort of as an end product.
00:08:57
Speaker
I'm trying to... I was collaborating with this CGI artist in order to make certain CGI images as well as the video.
00:09:08
Speaker
But then...
00:09:13
Speaker
I think since I came here, I started to change my thinking into questioning whether I would have to reach that sort of like, maybe let's say like a Hollywood production level, or can I just keep it as a really consumer level?
00:09:41
Speaker
and as like the end product.
00:09:45
Speaker
And there were a lot of conversation that I had with one of my mentors when I was studying here, who is Matthew Ritchie.
00:09:56
Speaker
He is an amazing artist who's also like having works focusing on the AI technologies and the systems around the world right now as well.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I think he inspired me a lot and also like in suggesting me that if I was doing something which is like fulfilling the same standard or the outcome as most of like the commercial productions are,
00:10:28
Speaker
what is the point?
00:10:29
Speaker
Like, do I have to fulfill that?
00:10:32
Speaker
And then that was the point I started to question.
00:10:34
Speaker
And then later on, I started to play with like all this like really low tech outcome.
00:10:40
Speaker
And beforehand, I was using those applications and software.
00:10:45
Speaker
I just have to like, um,
00:10:49
Speaker
I just have to adjust all this broken data in order to make it more seamless.
00:10:55
Speaker
But at a certain point, I realized that those glitchiness was something that was so contemporary as well.
00:11:05
Speaker
It was really unique at this moment of time.
00:11:08
Speaker
And I also started to realize that years after years, the glitchiness of all this end product that was produced from those applications of software are getting much less and less.
00:11:22
Speaker
Right.
00:11:24
Speaker
which means what we are experiencing now, what we're looking at, what we're seeing visually right now is pretty unique.
00:11:31
Speaker
At that point I was trying to embrace all this really lo-fi process and also the outcome as well.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a smart way to go about it because I think when you do produce at a high... When you have that high production level, the content also reads differently, right?
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:57
Speaker
You read it from a standpoint of almost like entertainment or Hollywood.
00:12:02
Speaker
The story, I think it...
00:12:04
Speaker
I'm not going to say it buries the story, but it might interfere with the actual narrative that you're trying to get across.
00:12:13
Speaker
A lot of the, or at least the videos I've seen from your work, you do a lot of mining from your histories, from your experiences.
00:12:24
Speaker
To add
00:12:25
Speaker
Hollywood level production levels.
00:12:28
Speaker
I don't know.
00:12:30
Speaker
I guess you would have to see it, but I would think it would interfere with the message.
From Commercial to Content-Driven Art
00:12:37
Speaker
I'm glad to hear that.
00:12:40
Speaker
That's just me.
00:12:42
Speaker
Well, it's also in addition, I want to mention, because also I came from like a commercial photography background.
00:12:50
Speaker
I was working in sort of high-end commercial productions in Hong Kong.
00:12:59
Speaker
I've been working in that industry for long.
00:13:02
Speaker
And every product that we were making at that time was like, we're trying to reach this really
00:13:15
Speaker
I love my discord.
00:13:17
Speaker
It's just like all this production, it doesn't actually add much value into that content.
00:13:25
Speaker
As you mentioned, it's almost like fantasizing a model or a product, and it's only for the aim of selling more product or promoting certain things, which doesn't actually, to me, represent that much value.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yeah, so that's why I also don't want to go back on that crap maybe.
00:13:51
Speaker
I mean, that's a great question because we saw that during the pandemic when all, like, if you watch any sort of television that was still being produced,
00:14:04
Speaker
A lot of it had to be done
Pandemic's Impact on Media Production
00:14:06
Speaker
remotely.
00:14:06
Speaker
So you didn't have the luxury of having these high-end studios to do the, to say the Conan O'Brien show or whatever.
00:14:15
Speaker
So they had to do their own little productions in their own houses.
00:14:18
Speaker
And they had to learn from YouTube.
00:14:21
Speaker
Like these people that were been in the industry for years, these amazing videographers and lighting techs, they're like...
00:14:30
Speaker
they had these overproduced things they didn't know how to peruse really simple video that kind of like went straight to so they had to find out from like the youtube channel like the 16 year old in their in their in their bedroom producing the videos they had to go back to that to make content right right right that was interesting yeah go on
00:14:54
Speaker
It's a good reminder.
00:14:55
Speaker
That's true though.
00:14:56
Speaker
I really enjoyed watching those presentations from all this professional TV presenter in a home setting.
00:15:04
Speaker
That was amazing.
00:15:05
Speaker
Right?
00:15:08
Speaker
Just to finish the questions from Joe, he did ask, how do you approach filming and editing like in Feed 3.0?
00:15:17
Speaker
Do you storyboard or plan your shots first or is it more of a collect video and then you synthesize afterwards?
00:15:24
Speaker
Oh, I think the process was, it was started first, I was filming at different locations and then the script came in between.
00:15:39
Speaker
And then I go like back and forth.
00:15:41
Speaker
So I was like filming and then like, I started to have like a script and then like, I would need to have additional footages and then I have to like film that.
00:15:50
Speaker
And then I go back on like,
00:15:52
Speaker
re-editing the script as well.
00:15:55
Speaker
So it's a work in progress as far as, but you have a main idea, but then you're kind of like, you're changing as the footage comes in?
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think.
00:16:07
Speaker
And I'm still working on that as well.
00:16:10
Speaker
I guess right now, every work I'm putting up right now is like a little by little, chapter by chapter, sort of like a sequence, not sequence, but it's like the way that I'm trying to present the work right now.
00:16:28
Speaker
So they all kind of like, it's just a continuation?
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:33
Speaker
And then the last question before I move on to my question.
00:16:38
Speaker
Is the avatar we see in the videos, is that a completely fictional character or something in between?
00:16:46
Speaker
Is it you?
00:16:48
Speaker
In which video?
00:16:50
Speaker
I think specifically he's talking about like in V3.0.
00:16:54
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:16:57
Speaker
But then the MoCat suit character that you kind of like feature.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, that was me dressing up.
00:17:07
Speaker
But the character itself, are we supposed to imply that it's you or is it a fictional character or is it something in between?
00:17:16
Speaker
I think I was expecting that it could be in between.
00:17:25
Speaker
Some people will recognize that it's me, but then when I realize, when the audiences don't recognize that it's the artist, that would also work as a different...
00:17:41
Speaker
like dimension as well I think both both conversations that I had with uh with the audiences whether they know that it's me or whether or not like those are both like uh really those are both like really interesting like direction and I I wouldn't want to like eliminate
00:18:03
Speaker
any of the perspective.
00:18:05
Speaker
I'm pretty open by people who see it.
00:18:09
Speaker
Because I think that also responds to the reason why I'm using my own body.
Body as a Resonating Device
00:18:15
Speaker
It's just because I see my body as a device, which carries a lot of content which is...
00:18:28
Speaker
or echoing with maybe like a group of community or like a certain group of people or like people could find like their entry points at different points so I'm like me but also like not me so maybe that is how I see the character I think
00:18:51
Speaker
I completely love that.
00:18:54
Speaker
One of the things I wanted to tell you is how much I relate to your work.
00:18:58
Speaker
It just seems, having gone through the works on your website, for instance, the photo album, I think it's called Here.
00:19:10
Speaker
Yeah, or hear an album.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:14
Speaker
I mean, I know it's very specific.
00:19:16
Speaker
Again, I think that this is a lot of your work.
00:19:18
Speaker
It's very specific, obviously, to you and to your experience.
00:19:22
Speaker
But I can't help but see myself and my experience in that.
00:19:25
Speaker
And I often... Oh, that's great.
00:19:27
Speaker
I think the specificity of that is always, I think, always lends itself to more universal readings.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:37
Speaker
Because you, I mean, in that particular, in that particular work, you're, you're mining from your past and you talk about your grandparents.
00:19:46
Speaker
So they're migrating from mainland China to, to Hong Kong.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
And just, I could imagine how different that must have been for them and just like a rupture, right?
00:20:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:01
Speaker
Just to relate to myself, it's,
00:20:03
Speaker
my parents are from the Dominican Republic and my grandmother and my father's side, she migrated to Manhattan.
00:20:10
Speaker
from an island in the Caribbean.
00:20:12
Speaker
I can only imagine how different that must have been.
00:20:15
Speaker
But that happens in the 50s, right?
00:20:17
Speaker
And then she brings over my father and his two brothers, and they have to, and they're teens, and they kind of have to navigate this metropolitan city that's not the Dominican Republic.
00:20:28
Speaker
And what does that mean?
00:20:29
Speaker
And then, like, whatever.
00:20:30
Speaker
Fast forward to now I'm first generation...
00:20:34
Speaker
american but yeah i can i completely saw myself in those images and the i love the way that they're fragments and they're they're kind of like that you don't necessarily focus on the actual image of the person sometimes it's like a detail or or an embellishment or or i love the the photographs of like the um the decorations like of official documents like
00:21:00
Speaker
I think a lot of that's really beautiful but it's meant for anti-forgery right because you're not supposed to forge whether it's like a passport picture or passport or some kind of official document or even on money you see a lot of very decorative like line drawings but it's it's real use is to try to keep forgers from making fake copies of the thing but you point those out
00:21:30
Speaker
That's really great.
00:21:31
Speaker
And thank you for sharing your story, like your family, my migration story.
00:21:36
Speaker
I'm always really interested in knowing how human beings are moving around the world.
00:21:43
Speaker
They always carry a really intriguing history.
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm so glad that I could hear that today.
00:21:51
Speaker
And it was amazing that you were telling me that you could relate
00:21:57
Speaker
to your own family history and all this migration, transitional experiences.
00:22:02
Speaker
That was great because when I first showed that series in the US to the US audiences,
00:22:14
Speaker
I didn't get much responses because maybe at that time, I thought that was too regional specific, but at the same time, I think that shouldn't be because it's also a universal experience as well.
00:22:34
Speaker
And maybe it's because it's an old work and I was mostly showing the Here and Album series in Asia.
00:22:42
Speaker
So the responses I got was really different.
00:22:45
Speaker
I'm so glad to hear what you say.
00:22:50
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, the same thing happens in the video with the I am invincible on the screen.
00:23:01
Speaker
I mean, the same thing is the same way I, well, not the same way, but I relate to that
00:23:08
Speaker
For the audience, before I say what I want to say, do you mind explaining what the video I Am Invincible on the screen, the false motion tracking is about?
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, that is a two channel video work that I made actually in 2019.
00:23:26
Speaker
But then it was finalized in 2020.
00:23:31
Speaker
I think it's during the pandemic, a lot of like...
00:23:36
Speaker
just a lot of thoughts and like editing like that has been changed and that is a work that is it was starting from a series that I made earlier in 2018 which is called the memories of tomorrows and that is a project that I was focusing how Hollywood cinema from the 1940s to nowadays
00:24:06
Speaker
represent or portray peoples of Chinese design as well as East Asian design
Critiquing and Reimagining Hollywood Stereotypes
00:24:15
Speaker
as well.
00:24:15
Speaker
Because in all those productions, there's a huge mix of Asians to be seen as just one flat as a whole.
00:24:25
Speaker
But there was so many different countries and so many different cultures as well.
00:24:31
Speaker
And that was a trigger point.
00:24:36
Speaker
And then I am invincible slash force motion tracking.
00:24:40
Speaker
It was a combination of materials that I used for that project.
00:24:48
Speaker
And then
00:24:49
Speaker
And then I use a mobile application which has a diff-fake algorithm that I could just use it to change the facial expression or the line of the character or the movie still that I was extracting from all those movies and all those archives.
00:25:11
Speaker
And I was just recreating their lines.
00:25:16
Speaker
and trying to make like a new sequence of those footages
00:25:23
Speaker
And then afterwards, almost like after a year, I've been like talking with many people regarding to this short video.
00:25:33
Speaker
And then many of them was telling me that like, they didn't know that I was actually performing behind the camera.
00:25:45
Speaker
And it's true that like,
00:25:51
Speaker
they can only see like this character was being altered and then like their face and their like gestures was like I think so weird but then they don't know that was me which is like behind that skin, behind that still image and then that is why I started to think of maybe I should bring my present
00:26:14
Speaker
at front as well.
00:26:15
Speaker
Then that was the time I'm trying to look for like different characters that I can portray and such.
00:26:24
Speaker
And at one point that I was looking into all this making of, um, footages of those Hollywood like CGI, like VFX productions and
00:26:39
Speaker
And it was kind of intriguing, but at the same time really sad to see that, to see all those people who were performing behind the VFX production.
00:26:54
Speaker
They were dressing up with this motion tracking outfit, and then their performance recorded 360 degrees.
00:27:04
Speaker
which means that they have to consider all these different camera angles, which is an amazing performance they have to master.
00:27:11
Speaker
It's way harder than how you would perform just by considering only one camera angle.
00:27:20
Speaker
It's a totally different level of performances.
00:27:25
Speaker
But then at the end, the end product, like you wouldn't be able to see their face or their body.
00:27:34
Speaker
There will always be a different characters or like a different skin that's going to be attached or rendered on top of their performances.
00:27:42
Speaker
And that is like a point that I feel like
00:27:45
Speaker
I somehow could relate to this character a little as well.
00:27:49
Speaker
I think in terms of how we live globally nowadays, we're always being represented by all different external forces as well, as well as our own self.
00:28:05
Speaker
And even through...
00:28:07
Speaker
through all those like platforms, for example, like social media and such, like we're always like creating a different persona of our own bodies.
00:28:18
Speaker
So that is the trigger point that I wanted to just like get into their shoes and just be one of them.
00:28:27
Speaker
And then I make this fake motion tracking outfit and then I've been like dressing this and then going outside and then taking footages and such.
00:28:43
Speaker
Sorry, I think I get lost.
00:28:45
Speaker
Oh yeah, back to the video.
00:28:48
Speaker
And for I am invincible slash false motion tracking,
00:28:51
Speaker
The other part of the video that has this character, which I perform, dressing in this fake motion capture outfit and trying to mimic what was created from the deep fake application and what was created on the other screen.
00:29:14
Speaker
So this is basically what this two channel works is about.
00:29:21
Speaker
I mean, an incredible piece.
00:29:23
Speaker
I've watched it several times and every time I watch it, I get something different out of it.
00:29:28
Speaker
Initially when I saw it, I was, we were doing the studio visit with you at NARS.
00:29:34
Speaker
And I think, I don't know if I got to talk to you about it, but again, back to the specificity, kind of bringing out the universality, the,
00:29:46
Speaker
So Anglo-Saxon playing an Asian character, that happened a lot also with Latino characters, especially in the 50s and 60s, where you had white people doing Spanish characters.
00:29:57
Speaker
Oh, right, right.
00:29:58
Speaker
And it just brought me to that space where it's like you have this...
00:30:04
Speaker
up until then, there's no acceptance of like, even in, I don't know, the original West Side story.
00:30:10
Speaker
So Rita Moreno is a Puerto Rican and she's playing a Puerto Rican character.
00:30:14
Speaker
Even her, they actually made her wear brown makeup to make her more brown.
00:30:18
Speaker
Whoa.
00:30:22
Speaker
she's the she's the authentic puerto rican in the story but she she wasn't puerto rican enough for the for the producers so they actually had to make they had to they had to put brown paint yeah so i mean again i completely relate to seeing this uh the otherness uh um and then at one point at the video towards the end the character i think it's a so
00:30:49
Speaker
What does he say?
00:30:50
Speaker
There was a character at the end that's like... I forget what he says.
00:30:58
Speaker
But he's inside the house and he's wearing a domestic.
00:31:02
Speaker
He's like, I changed or something.
00:31:04
Speaker
And he's like, you didn't recognize me?
00:31:05
Speaker
He's a servant, right?
00:31:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:08
Speaker
So is that... Complete 360?
00:31:11
Speaker
First of all, first you were trying... I don't know.
00:31:15
Speaker
It's almost like... I don't even know.
00:31:19
Speaker
it made me think of just the whole implication of colonization and like now now I'm subservient in the actual process like now I'm now I'm one of you like you can you've forced me to kind of like uh into the space but it's it's really really really fantastic well I'm glad
00:31:43
Speaker
I think the ending part is... Also, this character is... I don't know if you recognize this.
00:31:49
Speaker
This character is the same as the previous shot in the video.
00:31:55
Speaker
And then it's also the same as... Sorry, I should make a shot.
00:32:02
Speaker
The last couple, four characters is actually the same actor.
00:32:05
Speaker
It's from the same actor.
00:32:07
Speaker
So he's been performing.
00:32:10
Speaker
All these different types of...
00:32:12
Speaker
stereotypical or like, I don't know, just a different persona that they were being asked to perform.
00:32:23
Speaker
And at that time, like, I think it's also like not that easy for like Asian Americans or like, or Asian to get into like a main role or main characters into all those like early Hollywood productions.
00:32:36
Speaker
So,
00:32:37
Speaker
Of course, right now this has been changed a lot, but at that time, I think they realized they were actually performing something that they actually don't want to contribute to be part of building up this stereotypical portrayal.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah, but then there wasn't many roles being given to those certain actors and actresses.
00:33:05
Speaker
No.
00:33:07
Speaker
But I mean, you could probably tell me more than... You probably know more about this than I do, but the whole Hong Kong cinema, especially in the 80s and 90s, we saw of it, like a lot of action movies and stuff, but there was a whole kind of explosion of cinema coming from Hong Kong.
00:33:27
Speaker
with different representations yeah with kind of like kind of like what you're saying where you're you're taking you're kind of taking control of what you're what the representation is as opposed to waiting for someone to do that for you right yeah it was sort of i was gonna say was that was that part of your your influence as far as like cinematics
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is a lot.
00:33:50
Speaker
That is a lot as well.
00:33:52
Speaker
And I think in relation to all these different regions, different regional movies production, it was really amazing to see how Hong Kong movies are getting to be more distributed worldwide because it's really changing the languages of how...
00:34:12
Speaker
like different audiences worldwide seeing the characters and seeing Hong Kong and people with different East Asian descent as well.
00:34:25
Speaker
I think it's really necessary for all this global distribution to be more freely presented, I would say.
00:34:48
Speaker
So the feed was a feed 3.0.
00:34:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:54
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit of that?
00:34:55
Speaker
I know we talked about it a little bit in the beginning where you talked about how you kind of like found the script and you kind of like shot a little bit and kind of re-edited.
00:35:03
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit more about it's part of an ongoing series, right?
00:35:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:12
Speaker
and this character is that the first time we kind of fully see the character realized oh yeah i would say this is like uh for the 3.0 it was made after the uh video of i am invincible slash force motion tracking and it was at that time that like after i introduced that character i felt like like
00:35:36
Speaker
I wanted to bring them into real life situations, showing them how they were like when they were stepping out of the stage, just not performing what they were asked to perform, but just figuring out themselves in daily life and such.
00:35:56
Speaker
So that is how I start the video.
00:36:01
Speaker
And just by filming at first, it was just like a fun exercise at first.
00:36:09
Speaker
I was just thinking like, yeah, maybe I should just bring myself out and dress in this, like he said, hilarious outfit and see how all the people are responding on the street or in the subway or different parts of New York and Hong Kong.
00:36:24
Speaker
And, but anyway, once I, the more I've filmed at different locations outside, the more I realized, like,
00:36:33
Speaker
there's a sense of like, I feel like I'm trying to look for who I am.
00:36:40
Speaker
And that becomes like the script that I was trying to develop later on.
00:36:52
Speaker
So in the video of Fit 3.0, you can see like first that will be
00:36:59
Speaker
This character, which is me, washing dishes at home and then getting up from bed and just watching TV and such in my previous apartment.
00:37:13
Speaker
And then they were just going out and then going to the subway.
00:37:17
Speaker
That was like, it's just reflecting, it's just reflecting to what I was like actually, my surrounding at that time.
00:37:27
Speaker
But in the video, once they started to like, once they were in the subway and then after a certain period of time, they did.
00:37:38
Speaker
they were thinking about all these memories that they have.
00:37:42
Speaker
And then that was the point that I was trying to turn that moment into Hong Kong.
Transnational Experiences and Belonging
00:37:48
Speaker
And maybe that is also reflecting to what my experience was while I was in the U.S. in the past few years.
00:37:56
Speaker
Honestly,
00:38:02
Speaker
this like transnational experiences that has changed a lot and has changed a lot of my thinking of like this sense of belonging has been changing and I think it's still I'm still having this dialogue with myself of like how it goes and also like what
00:38:29
Speaker
I wanted to be or what I'm becoming.
00:38:33
Speaker
And also in relation to what or who I am before or what my past was before.
00:38:45
Speaker
And that was the part of the second half of the video is basically this character was trying to look through their past
00:38:57
Speaker
and then trying to locate who they are.
00:38:59
Speaker
But actually, it's like an ongoing and struggling sort of dialogue as well.
00:39:04
Speaker
Maybe not like struggling, but like, it's this moment that they were confused by where they were supposed to be.
00:39:15
Speaker
So that is what the other half is about, basically.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, because the character, just for the audience who's just listening, is so you're wearing a MoCat suit with a green screen behind you, and you're in the New York City subway, which I got to say, you have to go pretty far to make, to pique the interest of somebody on the subway, especially during commuter hours in New York City, because you could see some pretty far-out things, right?
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:47
Speaker
So I don't know if necessarily you piqued a lot of people's interest.
00:39:50
Speaker
Did you?
00:39:52
Speaker
No, surprisingly not.
00:39:54
Speaker
I'm not surprised.
00:39:55
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:39:57
Speaker
But I love how the characters, when watching TV, it's just the footage of a green screen.
00:40:03
Speaker
It's like a projection of a projection, right?
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:07
Speaker
And then the subtle difference between shifting from New York City to then Hong Kong and then just the questioning, like you're saying, like, is this even real?
00:40:17
Speaker
Like, is this even like, what am I, where am I going, what am I doing?
00:40:21
Speaker
And it's like, what is this?
00:40:24
Speaker
I don't think, especially in regards to the show, the neither here nor there,
00:40:33
Speaker
your work is completely within that confine of constantly questioning between the digital and the physical and the intertwined, like just almost like, um, just acceptance of the inner, the, that the two are intertwined for better or
Digital and Physical Realms in Art
00:40:50
Speaker
for worse.
00:40:50
Speaker
Right.
00:40:51
Speaker
And trying to make sense of it.
00:40:54
Speaker
And what does that mean going forward?
00:40:55
Speaker
Right.
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:57
Speaker
It seems like, especially having seen the trajectory of some more recent work, like you even do, there's even, I didn't, I don't see the work, but so the, you had something in Minecraft as well.
00:41:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, that was actually a commission work that I made with a festival in Hong Kong called the New Vision Festival.
00:41:21
Speaker
And then they basically commissioned me and other artists to make a project using Minecraft.
00:41:28
Speaker
So basically we are the concept like deliver a person.
00:41:34
Speaker
But then we have like a team to...
00:41:37
Speaker
build the world according to the idea that we have.
00:41:44
Speaker
And at that time, I'm trying to use references of different Hong Kong movies, as you mentioned earlier.
00:41:52
Speaker
This is one of my other influences as well.
00:41:55
Speaker
And I'm trying to recreate and then connect all this scenario from different Hong Kong movies, which are shot in the same location, in an area called East Kowloon.
00:42:11
Speaker
And I'm trying to recreate that in the Minecraft world.
00:42:17
Speaker
So that is actually what that is about.
00:42:21
Speaker
I mean, that's super interesting.
00:42:23
Speaker
So what, what, what, how did, how was that?
00:42:28
Speaker
So was that experienced through the gaming environment or is that just shown as snippets, like a video snippets of the actual final product?
00:42:38
Speaker
It's true that the actual gaming experience, yeah, they are for the audiences.
00:42:44
Speaker
They will be able to go, if they have a Minecraft account, they will be able to go into the, uh,
00:42:50
Speaker
the game world and then to experience everything from there.
00:42:53
Speaker
Oh, you'll have to send me a link because my daughter, my 10-year-old is completely entrenched into Minecraft.
00:42:59
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay.
00:43:00
Speaker
I'd love to see it.
00:43:01
Speaker
I'm going to send you that then.
00:43:03
Speaker
Okay.
00:43:04
Speaker
I didn't know that.
00:43:05
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:43:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's... So then...
00:43:11
Speaker
I guess the other questions I had with regards to the piece that you have in the actual show, Lydian Stater, neither here nor there, where you're also wearing the MoCat suit and you're giving fictitious directions, it looks like, to the camera.
00:43:27
Speaker
And then you have an animation on the other side of an avatar kind of fulfilling possibly those directions.
00:43:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:38
Speaker
and um the other day when you passed by the gallery and you had said to me something along the lines of um the show kind of like helped you see something a little bit different about your possible future trajectory i wanted to hear more
00:43:57
Speaker
I wanted to see if you would flesh that out a little bit as far as like, what was it that kind of clicked or made you kind of like think in a little bit different way?
00:44:07
Speaker
Well, I think that was, first of all, I think it was like mostly in, that was partially about the NFT and then the VR galleries.
VR, NFTs, and Cohesive Art Experiences
00:44:23
Speaker
First of all, like I never made NFT works before.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I haven't had much experience of having a show that has a VR gallery at the same time as well.
00:44:40
Speaker
But this time, it was like, everything was way beyond my expectation because I started to realize, you guys let me make me realize that for the VR work or the NFT work, it could be a component of a whole series of work.
00:44:57
Speaker
Or maybe it could work as a...
00:45:04
Speaker
partial trigger point of other physical work as well, as I never see that could happen in that way.
00:45:14
Speaker
I was always thinking NFC as one entity and then that's it.
00:45:18
Speaker
And also the VR gallery, maybe it could always be just a replica of the actual physical exhibition.
00:45:24
Speaker
It's like some...
00:45:29
Speaker
VR exhibition that I did before.
00:45:31
Speaker
It's just like there wasn't this additional layers or direction that was being added with this physical exhibition.
00:45:43
Speaker
So this time I was really inspired.
00:45:45
Speaker
And then I also started to think about how they could go into hand-in-hand and how they could echo with each other.
00:45:57
Speaker
I think that is something that I never followed before.
00:46:02
Speaker
It was like they wouldn't be able to stand alone, like the physical work and the VR work.
00:46:07
Speaker
They have to come together in order to be like complete work.
00:46:11
Speaker
I really like that.
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it works really well.
00:46:17
Speaker
And then to come also, also the opposite happens as well as this orientation of being in the virtual space in the physical space at the same time when you're, when you like the realization of the two at the same, trying to,
00:46:32
Speaker
Yeah, you're trying to grasp the two.
00:46:35
Speaker
And it's like you kind of have a hold of a little bit more of one thing than the other.
00:46:40
Speaker
And depending on whether you're in the virtual reality space, whether you're in the physical space, it's like you're saying, it's like the whole is bigger than just the parts.
00:46:49
Speaker
But then you try to grasp both of them and you can't.
00:46:53
Speaker
Right.
00:46:57
Speaker
I'm glad that you have that feeling.
00:46:59
Speaker
It's like, I don't know, it's also like, I don't know, like all these feelings that maybe most people, including me, were experiencing right now is this lost track of many things, but at the same time, like maybe you are still in control, but actually maybe you're not.
Virtual Meetings and Real-World Blending
00:47:21
Speaker
It's just like always like in this dialogue, you know,
00:47:27
Speaker
I mean, look at us.
00:47:27
Speaker
We're doing a Zoom meeting, even though we both live in the same city, but it was just easier.
00:47:37
Speaker
Even though either one of us could have gotten on a train and gone to the other person's place and sat down and set up the microphone.
00:47:43
Speaker
So yeah, it's like, what is this mixture of reality and virtual spaces?
Developing a Fictional Character in Digital Spaces
00:47:50
Speaker
I guess the final questions for you would be, what's in the works for the future?
00:47:54
Speaker
And
00:47:56
Speaker
are these factoring in um yeah what's in the what's in the future for you
00:48:03
Speaker
Right now I'm also basically it's like developing this character but with different forms and platforms.
00:48:13
Speaker
I'm still making like another video works like of this character with the digitized different digitized version of myself and also other people.
00:48:28
Speaker
And that would be like a video work and then
00:48:31
Speaker
On the other hand, I'm building a website with some of our collaborators from Hong Kong that we wanted to try to use the networked space, like a website, to use it as a medium for presenting this character and making different interactions.
00:48:58
Speaker
And that would be, we're still in this early stage, but roughly that would be about giving an experience of getting to know this fictional character through the platform, through the website of different interactives of...
00:49:20
Speaker
I love it.
00:49:21
Speaker
So you get more, so it's going to be more, as far as the background from this character, you get like histories and different aspects and different perspectives of the same characters.
00:49:37
Speaker
But still keeping, it's still kind of like anonymous as well, right?
00:49:44
Speaker
This character.
00:49:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:46
Speaker
Right now I'm trying to write like a fake history of this character.
00:49:51
Speaker
And then with some of the materials of my own, but with loads of the materials that I was like downloaded from like the internet, it's like a combination of this real person.
00:50:05
Speaker
But at the same time, at a certain point, you might realize, like, hold on, like, this may not be real.
00:50:12
Speaker
It's always like, yeah, that's in between like a relationship that I'm trying to build right now.
00:50:19
Speaker
It will always be fictional, but like maybe somehow it's not completely fictional as well.
00:50:26
Speaker
Well, that sounds fantastic.
00:50:27
Speaker
I can't wait to see.
00:50:28
Speaker
Yeah, I'll keep you guys posted.
00:50:31
Speaker
Well, absolutely.
00:50:34
Speaker
Well, yeah, that's all I've got.
00:50:35
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:50:38
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:50:39
Speaker
Thank you for having me.
00:50:41
Speaker
Thank you for being in the show.
00:50:42
Speaker
Thanks for the amazing work.
00:50:44
Speaker
Thanks for taking the time.
00:50:45
Speaker
But yeah, thanks.
00:50:47
Speaker
And can't wait to see what comes up of this character in the future.
00:50:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:50:51
Speaker
It's great.
00:50:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:50:54
Speaker
See you.
00:50:55
Speaker
See you.
00:50:55
Speaker
See you.
00:50:58
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
00:51:08
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at lydianstaternyc on Instagram, and follow us at lydianstater on Twitter.
00:51:15
Speaker
Thanks to Lauwai for taking the time to speak to us this week.
00:51:18
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about their work, please visit their website at w slash a slash i slash studio dot com.
00:51:25
Speaker
Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
00:51:29
Speaker
His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
00:51:33
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
00:51:37
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:51:39
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:51:41
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:51:43
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:51:44
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:51:46
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:52:13
Speaker
I know what to do, I know what to say, I just go.