Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
An Introduction to the Team | Dev Heads Podcast
1.2k Plays6 months ago
Welcome to Dev Heads! A brand-new podcast from Second Wind hosted by JM8, Tina Sanchez and Michael "Mikee" Tsarouhas focused on the games industry, completely hosted by game development professionals!
Second Wind is fully independent, employee-owned and fan-funded. Consider supporting us on Patreon for as little as $1/month at patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Backgrounds
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode one of Dev Heads. The podcast focused on the ins, outs, and goings on of game development, with hosts' experience ranging from indie, double to triple eight. And this episode is basically an introduction to us as the hosts. So to start with, I'm Jay, you might recognize me from Design Delve here on Second Wind, and I'm working on two indie games at the moment. One is an underwater horror game called The Bog, and the other one is Redacted, so I can't talk about that just yet. So let's move on. I'm joined by two wonderful co-hosts, which I'll let introduce themselves. So to start with, Tina.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hi, I'm Tina. I've been playing video games since I was four years old. I got my start in development at Infinity Ward where I was a senior community manager and then I eventually became a producer. I've worked on Call of Duty, Infinite Warfare, Call of Duty Ghosts, Call of Duty World War II.
00:00:56
Speaker
Probably another Call of Duty I'm missing. Modern Warfare 3 DLC. And then I was able to fulfill my biggest dream of working with the original devs of CoD at Respawn. And I worked on Apex Legends from its inception all the way until season five. And then I got curious about single player and doing major
00:01:19
Speaker
you know cool boss battles so i joined sony Santa Monica and i worked with gameplay engineering team there and i worked on God of War Ragnarok which is super fun and then i jumped to a startup with former respawn developers called gravity well and i was their lead producer
00:01:35
Speaker
And I worked on an original IP making new stuff with a major publisher. I don't think they have announced who it is yet. And then I decided to take a little break because I got pregnant and I had my second kid. And now I'm ending that hiatus with this show. So hello, everybody. Yeah, it's wonderful to have you. And we're joined by another wonderful guys, which is Mikey. Mikey, tell us about yourself.
00:02:01
Speaker
You flatter me, Jay. Hey, everybody. My name is Michael Saruhas. I'm also known online as Mikey in the dev community. I got started, I guess, in late 2013. I came from the modding community after I got started modding and worked on a mod called Under Health Half Life 2, a bunch of other stuff, mostly doing voiceover, writing, like narrative stuff, a little bit of design. And then from there, got involved with some commercial projects like Black Mesa. I'm the voice of the HECU Marines. Also wrote some of the dialogue.
00:02:32
Speaker
And then from there around that time got involved with Insurgency. I did a lot of that writing, narrative design, voiceover stuff, then kind of moved into community management.
00:02:43
Speaker
They had eventually moved into voiceover direction, working on a day of intony, like a World War II shooter we did with that studio, and eventually moving on into a design role as a lead game designer on Insurgency Sandstorm, opened up a studio with New World Interactive, the company we were at, moved a bunch of people to Amsterdam, so it was there for a few years in Europe.
00:03:02
Speaker
Really cool, really awesome experience. Solidly like AA, that's kind of what I'm representing on the podcast is being in that sort of mid-range as far as budget and production value goes with the games that we work on. Sat between Jay over here with the indie and Tino over here with the Solidly AAA.
00:03:20
Speaker
After that, moved to Canada, kept working on Sandstorm, eventually decided to move on to a new opportunity and worked in virtual reality. I was working for Meta for a couple of years and moved to Los Angeles, which is where I am now. Then, I guess I was telling Tina and Jay, it's fitting. We're doing a game developer podcast.
00:03:40
Speaker
here in 2024. So one of us would be the one that got laid off, right? And that was me. Last year I got laid off by Meta, as well as most of my team. But it was a cool opportunity because I ended up doing some consulting and that's what I'm doing now. I do contract work and design and, you know, all the other fields that I've been working in over the past 10 plus years and worked more recently on projects like SCP-5K is one of the ones I could talk about.
00:04:07
Speaker
I'm, again, that sort of like in-between as far as experience goes. Tina's sort of that AAA and Jay's the indie. And we've all kind of got crossover, I guess, in our departments. But I'm more on like the design, writing, a little bit of community, voiceover side, and you know, some of the other stuff here. Oh, mankind profits from the chat wants to know if this is live at all. And I'm going to say, I don't know.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, we're not sure you're not sure. Read, read into that response as much as you want. Yeah. Take that as you will. I'm sorry, Eric. Did I give you time to play my, uh, my video? I felt like I just kind of, I was there. Yeah. Yeah. You're on the scooter, right? That was you.
AAA vs Indie Development
00:04:51
Speaker
So why, why we've been so excited to get this podcast up and running is because, um, it's such an interesting,
00:05:02
Speaker
take to be able to get us sat down that we're part of such different departments, not just in like, you know, we range from sound designer, level design, design producers. Um, we're also from different, I see, I'm going to put it this way, tiers of the community. Um, but that's what I wanted to talk to you guys about, which is how do you define these tiers and why is that important to our discussion? So like for you, Tina, what, what is AAA to you?
00:05:31
Speaker
For me personally, it is a game that is...
00:05:36
Speaker
that your parents know about, right? Or have heard of at least, um, it is a big budget game. Uh, probably not. Uh, you're not making a, an original, uh, game at that point. You're making a sequel of some sort, triple A. Um, at this point in our industry, um, the budget can range anywhere between $200 million before marketing up to 500 million.
00:06:04
Speaker
with marketing, maybe more, 600 million. Like AAA games are a beast of a, you know, you gotta bust out the big credit card for those.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, so what I'm hearing is like, budget is a huge part of defining something as AAA. I'd also add to the ring, team size, like team size is a huge thing. A lot of the times in AAA, the team sizes are gargantuan in comparison to say... They can be. For Call of Duty, when I was on it, the team was maybe 300 people, but I think now modern Call of Duty
00:06:40
Speaker
You have three or four, maybe even five different game studios working simultaneously on the same projects in the same code base. Yeah, so like over 900 people make a COD game. When I was on Apex, there was like 113 of us without external QA. And you know, God of War was like four, three, 400 people.
00:07:06
Speaker
I've blows my mind as someone who's what one of the games I'm working on we have I think eight eight people working on it and the the second the redacted one we currently only have four so and Next episode after this we're gonna be having someone on our very own Yahtzee crochet who's worked on the game by himself So hearing games that are worked on by like hundreds of people It's a very different ballpark
00:07:29
Speaker
But that comes with challenges, right? Like having so many people means that. Yeah, it comes with the territory. When you work on a AAA game, it's safe to say that as a developer, you're probably very specialized in what you do and you don't really branch out of that way too much. For instance, you know, you could have an artist that just makes props and that's their full time job for a couple of years. They're not going to be making characters or weapons or anything like that. You have different departments for those things.
00:07:59
Speaker
Um, and, uh, you know, I'd also say like one of the perks of working on a AAA game though, is when you're done shipping the build, you drive down the street, you see a giant billboard on your way home with your game on it and it, and it, and it feels good. Um, and it, and it, you know, kind of validating for the effort that's put in, but yeah, you're not necessarily going to make big sweeping
00:08:24
Speaker
impacts on a game that's AAA because there's just so many stakeholders and so many people touching the projects.
00:08:35
Speaker
Yeah. It's difficult. Those micro changes made. Yeah. I mean, like how, how does that differ? Because as you were talking about with, you'd be doing one thing right in, in AAA. Um, and you'd be doing that probably for years in comparison to indie, where you have to permanently, even sometimes in the same day, be switching from five different roles. Right. So I'm a lot of the projects I work on. I'm usually the level designer. I'm the sound designer. I'm doing design. I'm doing implementation. I'm doing all of these things.
00:09:03
Speaker
But with indie, that's very different. Like you said, someone could just be doing props. How does that differ with AA, Mikey? What's the kind of structure there? Well, I feel like when AA, like if I had to describe it really succinctly, it's really just indie where you have a lot more money and your team's bigger. And in that regard, and to what you're saying, I'm saying that because we wear a lot of hats.
00:09:29
Speaker
Like just to give you an example working on sandstorm i was officially like the lead game designer right but i wasn't just managing designers not to say that's a small task is and i was doing some management i was working with technical designers right engineer the ui designer slash artists i was doing design myself.
00:09:48
Speaker
I was meeting with other designers, doing conceptual stuff on the leadership level. I wrote the entire game, wrote thousands of lines of dialogue. I was directing actors, interfacing with the casting agency. There's just a lot of different ownership and stuff that you touch. So by contrast, like what Tina is saying, we get to, in the AA space, have a lot of, I guess you would say, agency and autonomy when it comes to stuff. A lot of ownership is maybe the best word for it, where
00:10:18
Speaker
you know for me personally like
Work-Life Balance in Game Development
00:10:20
Speaker
because i wrote everything and i did and i know i wrote all the dialogue in the game but like i designed all the triggers like when do people say things and then what do they say and how many different variations of saying things to they have uh there's a ton of ownership there
00:10:33
Speaker
Now, obviously, like, you know, that can happen in existing AAA, and Teena can speak more to that, but then there was all that stuff, and there were other hats, too. I was doing a lot of community stuff. I was talking to our publisher, trying to make sure that the trailers made sense, and doing a little bit of creative direction. Actually, a lot of creative direction, especially because, like, the characters, and the gear, and the equipment and stuff, there wasn't really a lot of, and this is, like, my experience, there wasn't really a lot of, like, I'll just delegate that to somebody else. Like, it kind of came to me.
00:11:03
Speaker
That being said, every developer will say this ever and it's probably not the first time we'll say it on this podcast, but every team is different and that's a really big factor too. But I would say as far as AA goes and what I generally hear from other people in that space, everybody's wearing a lot of hats. That much is constant, which is consistent with indie. As far as the team size goes,
00:11:24
Speaker
I mean, there's some New World people in the chat right now. They can weigh in here. But I think for the Insurgency Games and Day of Infamy, which is the bulk of my AA experience, we must have started around 20 to 25, and then we grew to 50 by the end of it, I want to say, broadly around the end. At least before I left, because I left and I went to Meta in 2021, I want to say, March or April.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think about like, so we're all from such different backgrounds within the industry, such a range of experience. And I'm thinking, do you guys have anything that you are
00:12:03
Speaker
envious about with other people in the industry. So not other people, but say like I'm indie, right? And there are some advantages to being indie. You can make these sweeping changes. Tina, do you have anything that you're envious of? I mean, there's like, there's a lot of things that come to mind. The one that jumped to the top of my mind, though, might be a little bit selfish.
00:12:23
Speaker
When I was working on Call of Duty, I would go to industry events like GDC or E3, or even the Game Awards, and I would meet other developers. And personal experience, 99% of the time, developers did not want to talk to you.
00:12:43
Speaker
Like they just did not want to talk to a Call of Duty dev. They're just like, we know what you're doing. We don't care. I introduced myself to someone at, uh, I introduced myself to, uh, one of the guys from Journey, uh, uh, that game company. And, uh, I was like, Oh my God, I am so excited to meet you. And he was just like, okay. And then walked away cause he just did not want to talk to me. Um, and then I, I learned that, you know, working on, um,
00:13:11
Speaker
So, you know, working on the, I guess the pop hit of our industry is not necessarily like a, say respected, that's a really strong word, but you kind of get my drift, right? Like other devs don't really like, really want to engage with you that much, which is unfortunate. So I'm at, yeah, whenever you meet an indie dev, you're like, holy hell, how'd you do that?
00:13:34
Speaker
because, yeah, you wear a lot of hats and you have a lot of talents and that makes you extremely valuable in AAA, by the way, because they value that too. They just don't encourage it that often. Yeah, they might bring you in and not actually leverage that because of the structure, which is something that I'm, I guess, not envious of is that structure. I think I would get crushed by that kind of
00:13:59
Speaker
format because why I love indie so much is because my skill set allows me to do so many things and I find so many things enjoyable. I don't want to use the word forced. If I was employed to do the same thing every day for multiple years, I think I would start to fall out of love with that thing.
00:14:19
Speaker
And that's something I try and avoid with game dev at all costs because I don't know about you guys if you've experienced this but learning to make games kind of
00:14:31
Speaker
destroys your love of them for a little bit. Because you look at them differently and it's... I'd say it shifts it. Yeah, it shifts. For me, and it depends, right? Like there's certain games that I'm not as inclined or certain experiences, modes that I'm not as inclined, but I definitely hear you. It does affect you. And look, there's studies about this, doing something that you love
00:14:53
Speaker
makes you like it a little less. But I think what that really means is it just kind of changes it a bit. And the passion is still there no matter what. It's just a matter of like when you go to be recreational and play stuff, it might change what you do a little bit.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah. And that's why I love indie because I get to wear all those hats at all times. If I'm getting a little bit, you know, I've just made my sound effects, which I really love, but I don't particularly enjoy implementation. I can implement for a bit and then I'll go work on the level design. I'll go work on this. And I think it gives you a frame to detach your brain. Um, but you have, you kind of get that with your role as a producer, right? You know?
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah, wearing different hats. If you were watching this right now, if you get mad at me at any point in time in the future, you can play Call of Duty Ghosts and shoot me in the face because I'm one of the characters. I will say, working in AAA,
00:15:51
Speaker
As its perks, I blew up explosives in the Arizona desert to capture sound effects for the game, which was insane. I don't think I'll ever get that opportunity again. You also meet cool people along the way, right? There's athletes and musicians. I met Lewis Hamilton at the studio. I think Elon Musk came by once when we were working on Infinite Warfare that he drops a little bit of knowledge on.
00:16:17
Speaker
how to get into space and what that's like. Yeah, I think it has its moments. Yeah. So do you find that because AAA, how I define it is AAA is very business focused first. Yeah, to make that money back. Right.
00:16:42
Speaker
But because of that, the structure is different, which means that I think the internal relationships are different. I find all indie devs I meet are like you were speaking to about going to events. Any dev I meet is always super eager to
Roles and Responsibilities in Game Development
00:16:56
Speaker
discuss small, nuanced design things or tell their secrets and stuff like that. Do you find that with AAA, the relationships in the studio are different and it's more difficult to form those relationships?
00:17:09
Speaker
Um, it is in the sense that you could walk into a kitchen and not know anyone that's there because there's just so many people involved. Um, I will also, I did want to mention another point that keeps escaping me, but, um, uh, you know,
00:17:27
Speaker
observing indie developers. Oh, here's the thing that I'm envious of as a AAA developer of indie devs and AA devs. In AAA, you're not necessarily given the flexibility to take risks and do things that are different and create features that haven't been necessarily seen before. A lot of AAA dev is risk adverse because there's a lot of money involved. Though, you know, they're like, there's a lot of times where people talk about specific games
00:17:57
Speaker
for inspiration, right? And a lot of those games are indie. And I feel like when you're on the indie side, you have the freedom to make whatever the hell you want, because that's your thing. And that's, you know, I think a lot of AAA devs would agree that, you know, that's a freedom that they don't necessarily know day to day. Yeah. And maybe that's because
00:18:21
Speaker
As an indie, because you don't have your budget doubled for marketing, you need to take a risk to stand out. So you have to do something unique to be picked up. So that's why those risks are taken more. But yeah, if it was like, there was a magic wand and you could wave it and be like, your designer could come through and be like, I made the most unique thing that's going to sell great. Like let's put it in the game. If that was guaranteed,
00:18:47
Speaker
I'm sure everyone would jump at it, but because there's so much money involved, if there's a small amount of risk, and usually it's within a franchise that you could do damage to, like branding-wise, those things are never, that risk is never taken. It's not likely that it'll be taken. I will also, I did want to ask, you said developing something that'll sell. Is that actually in the minds of a
00:19:14
Speaker
indie dev or a double A dev. Yeah. You're just like, I need to make that money. Yeah. I'll make Mikey speak to this first.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's a combination, double A's in the middle, after all, right? Like, this would be a combination. Look, we're not immune to the risk factor. In fact, it's something that I think a lot of gamers don't really acknowledge as much, the business side of things, because it's not cool, it's unsexy, and it's unartistic even. And that's tough, but it's an unfortunate reality of making games.
00:19:51
Speaker
We fucking love tactical shooters. Everybody worked on it. I'm just using Insurgency as an example because it's a big bulk of my AA experience. But we knew that whatever we made, if we were going to put the money into making an awesome game, we had to make sure that there was audience for it. That's why you grow. That's what growth is. Insurgency started out as a mod, which is just people doing it for the fun and for the passion.
00:20:17
Speaker
and a group of people that said, all right, well, this is serious. Clearly people like it. We like it. Let's just try to make this bigger. So you're kind of you're kind of growing the idea along with trying to establish a community. And there are unfortunate parts of that where you have to say, hold on, if we do this esoteric thing, it's just going to alienate this this niche of our community. But that's just like all game development. It's definitely true that like you have the passion, but you also have to be realistic with money. I wouldn't say
00:20:48
Speaker
It's ever though, I wouldn't say it's ever, I'm getting into this because I want to make money because that's just, it's an art, right? And like the risk to on an individual level or a company level, like making a shitload of money, it's super, super high. Like the odds of you getting rich from doing this job is pretty unlikely. You get into it because it's interesting and it's fun and you're passionate about it.
00:21:13
Speaker
I think indie is an interesting one because like you were saying about going to events and meeting other devs, a lot of people within the indie space and also the perception from players, they view indie devs as more of artists than business men and women. And I think that's a misconception because at the end of the day, artists need to eat. So all products they're making, they're making it from a passion standpoint, which I think all devs are on any level from indie, double or triple A.
00:21:43
Speaker
but I do think indie are trying to sell a product as well like you can make a wonderful piece of art but also design it in a way so that it is fun and engaging to get more sales which will allow you to create more art and that's the thing a lot of people think that indie just refers to one or a couple people
00:22:03
Speaker
doing it by themselves. But that isn't necessarily the case. A lot of indie developers have, you know, quite sizable teams of like 10, 20, 30 people. And all of those people need to get paid. And no matter what country you're living in, there's, you know, there's a housing crisis happening. There's like the cost of living is going way up. So these people need to get paid a living wage. So your game needs to sell. And that is a part of it. You can't just be like, well, we're creating art. You can't eat this week.
00:22:33
Speaker
would you all agree that there's maybe I, I, you know, I'm going to say it like, I think there may be more stress involved in being an India or double a dev. Then there is a triple a cause on the, on the scale of triple a you're allowed to just turn a blind eye to a lot of major factors that gets a game shipped and out the door, right? Like negotiating budget, talking to a publisher,
00:23:01
Speaker
PR marketing of it all You could just work on your map and not have to worry about any of those things and know that they're handled But on a double and indie level like indie especially you're involved in all of that stuff
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a lot. But I think like I was speaking to earlier, that's one of the things that entices me to the role because it's so exciting and you're doing so many different things. But it is stressful. This may be a misconception and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. But a lot of the times, you know, when you're making an indie game, you live and breathe that thing all of the time. Most of the indie devs I know don't, you know, take weekends off.
00:23:40
Speaker
they they spend it working on the game and breathe it right yeah you you've got to live it and i don't want to say that's just indie that's also all game developers like nearly every game developer i know lives and breathes the product they're working on um because you're gonna have to you have to be obsessed jordan greer in the chat asked didn't mana lords just make like 84 million dollars why would anyone go triple a
00:24:04
Speaker
Well, that's like, you go first team. Job stability is one big factor. I mean, job stability, that's like a bad term right now because it's not really stable in our industry, but it's as stable as you can get as a developer jumping on a AAA game. You know that you have a safer chance of not losing your job.
00:24:28
Speaker
But, you know, it's kind of messed up right now. And also it's a risk factor, right? So Man of Lords did really well, like more power to the devs, you know, it's done really well and that's great. But, well, one of the facts is it's a great game, right? So that's why it's done well. But there are a lot of great indie games that have been made that get swept under the rug because of whatever factor, right? Marketing budget or... Marketing budget, the time you release... Networking with editorial, yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
It's a roll of the dice, right? So imagine working for three, four, five years on a project, pouring every day of your life into it, into this piece of art that you're making,
Entering the Game Industry
00:25:08
Speaker
that you're going to sell. And for factors that are out of your control, it doesn't sell well. And instead of making 84 million, you make nothing and have to, you know, find another source of employment, right? There is an inherent risk to indie.
00:25:23
Speaker
Yeah, Indie has outliers, right, that are successful. It's not the norm, though. Manor Lords is a... I'm not going to use the word fluke, because that might suggest that it's like not earned or something. It's not purely luck. It's just that not everybody can be like that, right? If you were to ask yourself or everybody here, like how many other indie games of that team size, one person, and I guess the publisher too, which of course is a part of that development as well,
00:25:53
Speaker
How many other games like that of maybe four million we don't really have an answer for that because there's not really a lot of so so Yeah, it's very it's very much just like you guys are saying it's it's a special case you have to you have to write time write place is definitely luck involved work damn hard and Have everything be perfect to have a success like that
00:26:17
Speaker
yeah it's it's very difficult and like that's something that we're seeing a lot in the industry at the moment and the the player perception is those questions of why the hell would anybody work in indie or not in indie in triple a why would they work here or this and it's because you
00:26:33
Speaker
can't just make things for nothing and then risk it all. People have families, people have mortgages to pay, people have lives to live. You can't just do that. And yeah, there are people who've worked in the AAA industry and then formed their own companies to then release things independently or working with publishers that are more geared towards indies and have better rates and stuff like that.
00:26:55
Speaker
But that isn't an option for everyone. It's not just this. Oh, well, we're fired. So I guess we're going indie now. Like, that's just not something that can happen immediately. So it's, you know, different strokes for different folks. People want different things out of game dev as well. For some people, it is just a job. And they love, say, for instance, 3D modelling. And they just want to, you know, churn out 3D models.
00:27:19
Speaker
and clock in and clock out and that's great and then you know AAA is a little bit more geared towards you.
00:27:27
Speaker
But some people want to sweat, you know? If I can interject there real quick, that kind of exists in AA too, if I'm hearing you describe it right. Not everybody, not every single person in AA I think has like the turbo passion or the, let's be candid, the instability of work-life balance that you have in India. It's super common in India because of your passion, because you want to make it even just as a way to get into a higher budget part of the
00:27:56
Speaker
industry, but not everybody in AAA.
00:28:01
Speaker
is maxed out on that. There are a lot of people in AA, I think, who they definitely care about the project. But they also, kind of like what you're describing there, their passion might be a little more specific. Their passion might be hard surface art and not necessarily the genre or the experience of the game they're doing. And they're going to work and have a decent work-life balance because they have some security. Again, of course, nowadays, whether it's a cycle or a fundamental change to the medium, we'll see.
00:28:30
Speaker
we can speculate on that but there's definitely people who who are able to have that stability in the double a space in the space i don't know it feels like it's something you gotta do on the side reminds me a lot of modding back in the day. But i would say that that's a similarity that double and triple.
00:28:51
Speaker
I wanted to shift gears a little bit to some of the wackier shit that you can do in AAA that I wanted to share. Like, so when you work on a AAA game,
00:29:01
Speaker
Your budget's pretty wild, right? A lot of AAA games have budgets bigger than the most popular Marvel movie that you've watched, which gives you a lot of opportunity to do some crazy stuff. I remember going to a LAN party hosted by EA Dice for Battlefield's launch,
00:29:23
Speaker
Okay, so I'm just playing on like an air carrier in like the harbor in Oakland or something. I'm like, what the hell? Like this is nuts. Um, uh, yeah, just, yeah, blowing explosive. Here's my envy. I want to go on a fucking air carrier driving tanks.
00:29:41
Speaker
You know, testing out helicopters. Yeah, I'm a plane. I'm defecting. I'm going to Triple A. I want to be on a jet plane plane battlefield. So I want to make sure I remember there was like what I think is a ridiculous decision made at like it almost felt very last minute for Infinite Warfare where they said, let's get Guy Ritchie to direct Jon Snow. What's his name? That actor, Harrington.
00:30:08
Speaker
Yes, for a cinematic scene in Infinite Warfare. And I can't share how much that was, but I was like, are we really doing this? Like, OK, is it really worth the money? I don't know, you know, but it's crazy how budget wise.
00:30:27
Speaker
We can't disclose how much that costs, but to think that that could get a couple, if not a handful of indie games made from the budget that was used to spend on, say, one cutscene. And that's not to say it's a bad thing, right? You're trying to create these blockbuster experiences, right? It's a different breed. But it's crazy to think how different the budgets and the balance of money really is.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, like Santa Monica had their own mocap studio right next door right for actors and just hop in whenever you're available and it's just like right there. That's not cheap.
00:31:06
Speaker
No. There were two big things, two big money moments of my career that I remember pretty distinctly where I went, that money, that's nuts. Those costs are crazy. I can't fathom that. And that was server costs. Yeah. Cut it. Yeah, right? That's a player game. You got people all over the world logging in and expecting, oh, it has to be as fast as possible. As soon as I click, I need to see death, right?
00:31:36
Speaker
You need to pay to have that kind of immediacy to a gameplay experience. So server cost was one. The other one was content creators. They make a lot of money. It depends on your size, of course. It depends on your reach and all these things, your applicability to the genre. But those were two moments where I think as a developer, I fully realized, wow, there's a lot of money in this industry. And these were just two different ways it was expressed, really.
00:32:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that comes down to marketing, right? The huge problem with indie is right. You could make the landmark game like contender for game of the year, but it gets swept under the rug because your marketing budget is nothing. Nothing. Yeah. And that commonly happens. Um, it commonly happens and it's really nice to see. So for an example, we're seeing at the moment with big mode and donkey and animal well, um, donkey getting into publishing and using their,
00:32:34
Speaker
their reach to be able to push these interesting indie ideas that are doing designs that we haven't seen in other games. I think that's really interesting and something that hopefully we can do in the future here at Second Wind because that's something that I've seen with working in games media is you do have this kind of
00:32:56
Speaker
I don't want to use the word power. But you can signal boost really hard. And like you said, developers will pay for that. And they will spend a lot of money to try and get you to talk about their thing. And I think that's, yeah, we're in a really unique position. So I'm on kind of both sides. I'm an indie, but also I'm a content creator who has that kind of signal boosting fire, which is interesting. Perfect combo.
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah, it is a good combo. Hopefully that helps the games I'm working on, so we'll see. I see something in the chat, Jay. Is it OK if we field that question? Yeah, yeah, go for it. Snake in the Garden, what's your best post game launch celebration story? Which is always fun to think about. Yeah. For all of us or for Jay? For me, the man who hasn't released his games yet. Yeah, I think the answer to that question would be quite short.
00:33:55
Speaker
Tina, don't make fun of Jay, please. Like launch parties and stuff? Yeah, what's the best way you've celebrated? And just before we answer this, a reminder, all donations that have come in, guys, they all go directly to supporting us making this content you're currently seeing. And towards the end of the podcast, I'll go through all of the donations and we'll read out the questions and we'll get more sorted. So if you have any questions for us that you really want us to get to, chuck it in a small donation and I'll read it out at the end. But yeah, Tina, do you have any cool post-launch party stories?
00:34:25
Speaker
Girl. Each game had their own launch party. One of them was shared with another game. I think Apex shared theirs with Star Wars. That was cool. Watching Stormtroopers do a dance number on the dance floor for us. Oh yeah, the parties are fun. But in a multiplayer live service game, you don't get to take a break. You just kind of
00:34:56
Speaker
Pass out, drink a little bit maybe, and wake up and get back to work because there's some kid out there who said, you know, I played 900 hours and I need more content.
00:35:08
Speaker
Which is, you know, a good problem to have. You know, another thing I wanted to mention, when you work on a AAA game, you don't necessarily feel like you own the creative of it anymore. It sort of becomes its own religion within its community, right? When you're working on a sequel. So that's even less flexibility to just be super creative because people will
00:35:31
Speaker
people may be upset. Like, uh, one example I can think of is a red faction, right? That franchise fucking awesome. I loved it. Uh, when red faction Armageddon came out, it was a first, no third person shooter. Yeah. Third person shooter. And a lot of people were upset. I loved it personally, but you know, it's, that's an example of like the game becomes its own. There's an expectation set, you know, by, by the players or the community that you have, you have to respect.
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah, and is that something that AAA devs and producers and stuff keep an eye on? Like they're kind of honed in on what the community is after because your community is so much bigger than, you know, something in indie. Are you paying extra special attention to that? I think so. I think a lot of devs tend to look at what's being said about your game, right? If it's on Reddit or YouTube or Discord or Twitch. That said, it's hard to really
00:36:30
Speaker
go through the feedback you get on a AAA game and decide if this is a storm in a teacup or if the masses feel this way. And it's also
00:36:42
Speaker
I would say it's an extremely vulnerable experience in the sense that someone or a large group of someone's may shit on something that you personally worked on and that does not feel good either because there's just more people being vocal about it. So, you know, it comes with the territory, but it's also great when you get a lot of good positive feedback.
00:37:04
Speaker
Yeah. I think your answer to the question, Tina, is nice because it really characterizes what my best, or one of my best, I guess, post-launch AA party or celebration stories because
00:37:21
Speaker
For one, once the launch happened, I don't really remember celebrating immediately. We were just all like, okay, are the servers up? Okay, cool. What are the bugs? Oh, it's this shit. We gotta look into that. So it doesn't happen immediately. But as if to further highlight the fact that this is AA and you are AAA, we just went out for an awesome dinner. We didn't have fucking stormtroopers dancing for us. But we did have a very nice day. It was in First Aid Storm's post, and some of the people in the chat might remember this.
00:37:51
Speaker
Not everybody could be there because we had a lot of people that were remote and that sucked but those of us who were in Amsterdam we went to a Brazilian steakhouse and Because of the company we had and the pride that we felt that food tasted fucking good man It was it was great and we gave a lot of credit to people who deserve the credit right like like our engineer is responsible for all the infrastructure stuff and then and
00:38:13
Speaker
and singled people out and said thank you. And that was, and I'm sure you guys did similar stuff right on your projects, but that was probably one of my fondest memories there was after we got a sandstorm out the door. I think it was, I don't remember exactly when it was, but I'm pretty sure it was like at some point post launch.
00:38:31
Speaker
I wanted to share a really good memory I have about Apex Legends right after it launched. So the whole team, we went into it trying to keep it as a big surprise. In the Leeds meeting when we were discussing the reveal of the game, we said, we're going to Beyonce this thing. We're going to drop it.
00:38:48
Speaker
and hope people love it. So we had no indication of if the audience would love it. If our fan base, was there a fan base for this? I don't know. Like, you know, we're releasing a Battle Royale game. There was Battle Royale games out there at the time that people were playing like Fortnite and and whatnot. So it's like, do people like this? I hope so.
00:39:10
Speaker
And, you know, when the game came out and it was free to play, watching the number of players grow over time was like the most rewarding experience I've ever had so far in my career.
00:39:26
Speaker
I'm not I'm not scared to admit like I cried you know like you bust your ass and you and you're hoping that it's good and then it and it is yeah it was it was the most thrilling thing also the CEO came to our office like two weeks later I could that could be a whole podcast in itself he was a it was a lukewarm reception but uh
00:39:51
Speaker
Anyways, um, yeah, no, it was great to see that, you know, people loved it and seeing people cosplay and do all that was, uh, it was really nice. Why wouldn't we cry, Tina, right? These are intensely emotional experiences.
00:40:06
Speaker
I can speak to it a little bit. So as we've discussed, the two games I'm working on currently are not out. So I do not have these stories, but I know for one that a lot of the times it's a delayed satisfaction because of other stuff I've worked on. You are not done when it comes out. So you don't have this triumphant moment of, Oh, it's done. And like, Oh my God, this, this thing I've been working on for so long is finally out.
00:40:31
Speaker
Um, but I'm triggering a memory jake. Go on. I gotta yeah. Um, but i'll speak to a little bit like what you were saying about apex and seeing the numbers go up I felt something very similar. Um with with second wind right when everything happened with second wind And then um, everything went crazy and it was the craziest like week of um, all of our lives and then to see the community get behind us and um, like rally and just seeing
00:40:58
Speaker
the the pouring of support and I'm not just talking about monetarily but like people in the comments people um just rallying behind us and supporting us um going from I don't know how this is gonna do to holy shit people want this people care um there's a powerful feeling that it's really powerful yeah
00:41:18
Speaker
And it can bring you to tears. And that's the community. And I think one of the things for Game Devs is why we do this and work in this intense, turbulent industry is because those moments and those feelings and getting to share that stuff with the community is stupidly powerful. It's really nice. Yeah. It's a high that you're always going to chase.
00:41:39
Speaker
Yeah. What memory did I unlock? Well, I guess, too, on the physiological side, the brought to tears moment, even outside of like a release. I remember being alone in the office crying just on another freaking Tuesday for some reason and being like, why am I upset? Like nothing's happening. There's a lot of stress involved with game development and the body keeps score, right? There's a toll on it.
00:42:06
Speaker
And sometimes your body just kinda let loose a little bit inside necessarily a big moment or something launch it certainly is often but that was one experience i had that reminded me of like the emotional stake that you have as a developer.
00:42:24
Speaker
I mean, you put a lot of effort and blood, sweat and tears to no guarantee of good feelings or success or anything. And sometimes it just kind of catches up with you. And that was one day in particular where I just all of a sudden hit me.
00:42:39
Speaker
It's intense. I have this, this story of a dev that I will not name. Um, but I, I studied and I left pursuing the industry for a little while because of this meeting, but I've come back. Um, I met someone, I will not name who they are or what game they worked on, but we went out for coffee. Um, we were about to get funding for a company I was running back in the day and they came to support us because they were one of the people who was going to invest.
00:43:05
Speaker
And they told us a story and they were like, I've worked on the game for the last five years on a major IP, AAA, and it bombed. And I've had two kids in that time and I've barely seen them. And in that moment, I something snapped in my brain. I was like, that's terrible. And I was like, I'm not doing that. But I guess this is one of the things that's kind of geared me more towards
00:43:33
Speaker
indie is because even though you're working like crazy and you have those risks and you do all that, you control your own schedule, you control it and you can do those things. Right. And it's not like, oh, if I take the day off to go spend time with, you know, family, children, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to lose my job. Right. And that's not to say all AAA is like that. But in some instances, you know, crunches mandatory. So
00:44:01
Speaker
uh hearing that i was like no thanks um but yeah it's a risk right like it's it's a huge risk to be a dev i'm saying it like our jobs are dangerous right like they're not but you're right it's there's investment and it might not pay off oh yeah when you're making something creative in the entertainment industry it's you're hoping to appeal to an audience is the audience there is the audience going to care
00:44:30
Speaker
You don't necessarily absolutely know for certain until the game's out. And it can screw your career a little bit. Yeah. We live in a branded world. What if they don't know the game that you worked on for five years? What if the game doesn't come out ever and get canceled? Exactly. Oh, I hate when that happens. Sucks real bad. How about the ears on a canceled game? I'm like, oh man, your portfolio is like...
00:44:54
Speaker
Just the phrase, trust me, bro. Yeah. Trust me. I've been working on this thing for five years. It's really cool. This happened to me when everything happened at second wind. A few devs reached out to show support and congratulate us.
00:45:09
Speaker
and stuff and because of that I've made some more friends in the industry and this will be a kind of there'll be two things in this podcast you'll see guys you'll either see all of us name dropping industry people or you'll see us not being able to say who it is
00:45:24
Speaker
because of specific things. So this is one of the redacted examples. There's a dev I know who contacted me and was like, dude, I'm working on this thing. Can't say too much. It's very, very cool. You're going to love it. Been working on it for like three, four or five years. And then within two weeks.
00:45:42
Speaker
They came to me and was like, oh, yeah, higher ups cancelled it because of X reasons. And yeah. And I was like, that's five years. And it's not you release the game and the community don't like it, which would be completely justifiable. Right. You didn't make a thing that didn't resonate with people. But to be like, yeah, the money men said, no, thanks on a five year project.
00:46:06
Speaker
maddening. Absolutely. That's a lot. Yeah. We had a question in the chat. Sock asked. So they asked, can you tell us a bit about your responsibilities as a producer? I can imagine that a lot of us in the chat might not know what that entails. That said, though, with that question, I think we should probably talk a little bit more about what we what our day to day looked like or looks like.
00:46:32
Speaker
So a producer is different at every studio I've been at. The underlying responsibility though is you're beholden to the departments or devs that you support in terms of helping them understand what they should be working on day to day, how much they have on their plate and
00:46:53
Speaker
when deadlines are that they need to hit. I've seen producers take notes in meetings. I've also seen producers like myself check in some data or code changes. It all kind of varies, but you're basically sort of like the the greatest sidekick to the developer so that they can do what they do day to day and get stuff in the game and you hopefully just help them keep track of like
00:47:17
Speaker
The administration of making games, right? Like if they're in meetings, they're in the right meetings, they're talking to the right stakeholders, they have the information they need to get their feature or task done. And does that entail communication between departments as well? What was that? Does that entail also communication between departments? Because a huge thing which I play is the scale. Are you responsible for making sure that the right people are communicating at the right times to get those jobs to work smoother?
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah, you want to make sure that they're talking to the right folks when things arise. I would also say that, you know, for some producers like myself, he sort of tried to develop a morale boosting personality for the devs you work with, right? Because making something is a very
00:48:05
Speaker
humanly emotional process. You want to make sure the dev feels like they're doing their best and they feel their best when they're working on something, you know, so I've talked to, um, you know, designers that were like, I really hate this feature and I know I have to do it because the team and the, and
00:48:20
Speaker
at large wants it and the community wants it, but I hate this change. No, let's talk about it. Why do you feel that way? Let's fence about it. Let's actually set up a play test and I'll make sure it's all coordinated so you can see if the feedback resonates with what you were thinking. Like, oh, okay, cool. You know, just giving them support. You're like a team counselor.
00:48:40
Speaker
Like an anti burnout fire extinguisher. Yeah. You try to be, you're about to burn out and you come in like, and you keep them honest. Yeah. They're like, I can do this. I can make eight maps in a month. And I'm like, no, you can't. I respect your hustle. Yeah. I respect that hustle. Yeah. Mikey, what about you? What's, what's some of the, the responsibilities of your roles?
00:49:07
Speaker
The name of the design, I kind of like to describe design as being like on a really high level, you're kind of like making the rules of the game that can involve everything along the spectrum from like the really low level stuff of like, okay, this assault rifle
00:49:25
Speaker
needs to have a good recoil value that represents its cost, that it's pretty good but not too good because it's in the middle, slightly more expensive tier as far as our in-game currency or point value goes. So that's the low level of like, I'll sometimes spend like
00:49:46
Speaker
hours with a gun shooting shooting shooting gone to the editor tweaking a little bit shoot shoot shoot go in the air tweak a little bit back and forth and back and forth and getting ready for a play test and playing with the QA team and the entire team writing up a survey to get feedback right or just taking people's opinions
00:50:04
Speaker
integrating that and then changing it. And that's always fun because in that process, you know that the update is going to go live tomorrow. If this value is... This value, I'm stuck between 0.5 and 0.6. One of them is going to be fun and the other one is going to be way OP and everybody will be fucking pissed and we have to push hotfix. That's the way I would sometimes get to thinking about it. But that's a lot of what designers will do is
00:50:27
Speaker
just like getting the nitty-gritty of like balancing things and making sure things are fun and setting rules. On the other end, there's the more conceptual, less low-level, I guess, stuff of like, okay, we want to make a new game mode. All right, well, let's talk. Let's try to figure out like what would be fun. Let's prototype something here. I'm going to get into the editor and I'm going to prototype a mode where
00:50:50
Speaker
we have to go here and the objectives are randomized yada yada. Let me pull an engineer and an artist together to help me in my little. Tiger team or strike team yet they have like different terms for them i've heard to get some art for me and get some bright be some code that's gonna let me do this thing and prototype this thing and we're gonna play as team and figure out if it's fun.
00:51:12
Speaker
All that all that shit is like owned by a designer. The designer is supposed to determine, OK, is this is this fun? What's the idea? What's the division for the mode or the balance of the weapon? The designers own all of those things. Yes, a designer has to shoulder the the heaviest weight of all the criticism that a game gets or a feature gets. Right. You have to be OK with people.
00:51:41
Speaker
giving you feedback in the best and worst kinds of ways and diluting that something actionable right like i've seen some of the greatest designers i've worked with were in a play test and you know someone would come up to them and say i hate this character
00:51:59
Speaker
And then it's up to the designer to take it upon themselves to figure out what do they mean by that? What do they actually hate? You know, what is something I can take away from this to reflect on and then actually get the feedback that the designer needs to work on it.
00:52:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's something I've always tried very hard to do is to be the approachable person, to be the person who says, okay, tell me more, describe for me. Even if somebody is being a total asshole about their feedback, whether it's a person on your team or somebody in the community, they might be right. So you have to divorce your ego from all that, so to speak, and make sure you hear what they're saying. And then also like, not
00:52:38
Speaker
not listen too hard to like the lobby that wants like the, the specific thing that they're advocating for and trying to bend your, yeah, design lobbyists. Cause it happens like in, in, uh, in communities, especially like the loudest ones aren't necessarily the broader community, but also you can never ignore your community. So the devil's really in the details and you really have to find a good balance when it comes to all that stuff. It's, it's pretty difficult. Yeah.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, and that is directly a skill that needs to be learned. So I used to teach game design at university and the amount of designers that I have met that are very, very incredible and promising at their role cannot take criticism in any way, shape or form. They take a small suggestion on how to change something as a slight against their being.
00:53:31
Speaker
And that they are shit, and you want them to die. And can I ask you this, Jay? A teacher suggesting, hey, have you thought about this? Now times that by someone who does not have the skill set to communicate exactly what they're suggesting that like Tina was saying, oh, I don't like the way this looks like.
00:53:51
Speaker
What do you mean? Yeah. What do you mean by that? And they just go it shit. And then they walk off like that's infuriating. But like you said, it's very helpful to translate that stuff. Right. But you need to be able to take that criticism because if you can't, you're never going to get anywhere. You're going to get trapped in your own head and your designs are going to be worse because of it.
00:54:12
Speaker
Let me ask you this, Jay, how old are your students? Usually at least the ones that you kind of get that experience with. So it's usually year one. So we're talking 1920 and this is just a maturing thing as being a human, like.
00:54:30
Speaker
It's a struggle back then. When I was studying game design and my fellow students would critique some of the things I designed and stuff like that, part of me would get offended and be like, oh, well, God, I guess I'm just so bad. And like, I wouldn't take it out on them or retaliate, but I'd internalize it and be like, oh, God, like, but then I learned, like, it is a blessing for someone to say to you, I can see a problem with this.
00:54:58
Speaker
And here it is. And you can look at it and you can study it and be like, okay, yeah, that actually is a problem. I couldn't see this. And the fact they brought it to me is a blessing in disguise. And I should take this and run with it and thank them. But that is something that is learned for a lot of people, not everyone, but most people, they have to learn that skill.
00:55:18
Speaker
I think a lot of us are assuming in these examples, too, that the feedback that we're receiving in these discussions that we're having right now is good feedback. There's a lot of times where there's extremely terrible feedback, and that's another art form in dealing with how to push that away or put a stop to a line of thinking. In my experience, there's been a lot of times where people that
00:55:49
Speaker
don't look like the main, uh, a character that we're critiquing had the loudest feedback. Like they need more personality. Are you making body curbs, Tina? How do you deal with that? Yeah.
00:56:09
Speaker
I need a bigger ass on this character to feel like I understand their strength. I'm not attracted to her. I'm like, Oh. Oh, so the game's bad. I understand. Thank you. Yeah. That's the point. Why? Oh, oh my God. Yeah. So.
00:56:25
Speaker
to Segway for that to speak about what my kind of roles entails for indie. So for an example, we were talking about hats. So the last big bout of work I did on one of the games I'm working on, I spent the day white boxing level design, gray boxing level designs, implementing and 3D modeling, texturing, making sound effects, implementing sound effects, play testing.
00:56:53
Speaker
I was basically mostly everything apart from programming because I suck at programming. I, as someone who has dyslexia, because I have dyslexia, turns out if you spell something wrong in your code, it doesn't work.
00:57:11
Speaker
I spell most words wrong, so it's not my jam. Things look broken where they should be working, but it's me. So I do a lot of everything else. But that's the joy, right? I love my job. What I get to do at Second Wind is incredible, and I wouldn't, you know, exchange it for anything ever. But when I'm working on game dev stuff and I'll wake up in the morning and I'll start 3D modelling and then, okay, we need to go do some sounds, make some sound effects, implement them both, that
00:57:40
Speaker
always switching is so satisfying to me. Um, I always feel like I'm, I'm always improving. I'm never stagnating. Um, and it's super, super nice. Like I really, really, really love indie space. It's so fun. You know, one thing I just thought about, um, a big difference between the three of us feedback and the people available to give you feedback varies greatly between each experience we've had for indie and double A.
00:58:12
Speaker
Okay, Jay, where do you get your feedback on your game?
00:58:16
Speaker
So, um, usually other designers, um, like friends and like close friends, close friends who I trust their opinions and aren't afraid to just tell me that's garbage. And this is why, and like, I can trust them. It's like hyper focused, um, like QA testing with people I know can articulate responses quickly because as indie and as someone who's working a full time job, as well as working on two games, I have very limited time. So I need that information to be.
00:58:45
Speaker
fast and reliable. So I usually get it from those people. But you're also taking a risk too, right? You don't want them to leak whatever you showed them or talk to them about. Yeah. So this is why they're trusted. They're trusted people that I know in the industry that I know. The thing is for a lot of these people,
00:59:06
Speaker
You know, a lot of we sign NDAs and we do stuff and we, you know, stuff like that, but developers talk, right? And they do it in roundabout ways that don't break NDAs, but they do talk to each other. And, um, because we want to share what we're working on with fellow designers and stuff like that, but not to the point where, like you said, they can steal what you're doing or, uh, do stuff like that. So the people I talk to are people I trust.
00:59:34
Speaker
um, that aren't going to do those things. And also they've shared things with me. So, uh, I, if they turned around and stole the project, uh, I could just do the same thing to them. So we trust each other. It's mutual leverage. Yeah, it's, it's mutual leverage, but mainly it's trust. It's I've known these people for years and years and years. Um, I trust their opinion. I trust their confidentiality. Um, but that's,
01:00:00
Speaker
that would then expand into community. Once we start revealing this other game and working on, we'll do public play tests and a lot of that will be done through second wind. And internally at second wind, through the community and stuff like that, because we have a lot of people that are interested in seeing those things. And that's what I've seen with Mikey. When you're releasing things for live service games,
01:00:26
Speaker
A lot of that feedback is immediate, right? Because you're releasing it and it has to try and be as clean as possible straight away. Oh, yeah. People will tell you whether they like or don't like something very quickly. You know, I in this podcast have said that with a laugh of like, oh, yeah, honestly, though, like, let's be real, like at the end of the day, as much as much as many emotional factors as there are to that possibility now.
01:00:56
Speaker
that the tech is good enough, we can get immediate feedback for video games. It's also pretty nice because as rude or as awful as people can be or as like misinformed or as inaccurate as their feedback could be, it's pretty awesome to be able to hear people say, hey, this isn't working, this is no good. I was talking about the balancing the guns example. We can hear pretty quickly if people think, hey, this gun is like way OP or hey, this gun isn't worth spit and it's the new gun, it's supposed to be exciting and fun and I'm not having fun.
01:01:25
Speaker
And when you hear that, and if it's just a difference of like, you know, getting the editor and pushing something and, and then, you know, obviously it's got to be tested and stuff. And there's probably other little fixes and stuff that that's all, you know, a little high stress and it's disappointing. Like for me, that means I, I didn't do my job right. Right. Cause the gun wasn't fun or it was overpowered or whatever.
01:01:47
Speaker
But at the same time it's pretty awesome to get that feedback and act on it immediately as opposed to what we used to have to do where we had to download patches off of fifty six k modems and drive out to the damn store and CDs right yeah so.
01:02:04
Speaker
Or burn them. It's nice now that we have that. It's nice now that we do have that immediacy as far as it's easy, broadly speaking, to update games. And that's a boon. That's great for the work that we do.
01:02:18
Speaker
Mike, I would love to deep dive into shooter development specifically with you one day. Hell yeah. It is. I'm all about that. Crazy, crazy thing. Yeah, we got a question in the chat. ReapersGrim asks, Jay, is IP theft, or I assume he means feature ideas too, that common in the industry?
01:02:44
Speaker
So I can't really speak to it first hand for the sense that I've never had an idea stolen from me personally, but those things do, NDAs exist for a reason, because it's not super common, but there is always a team that is slightly faster than yours that could churn out your
01:03:05
Speaker
game of the year winning idea faster than you can and probably has a bigger budget to work with or marketing, right? So it's best to keep things on the down low. It just keeps things very safe. And this is why I say devs talk because within trusted circles, they will talk about small things and not breaking the NDA, but you know, talk about it in roundabout ways because you need to get that feedback and that bounce back off of other devs.
01:03:35
Speaker
But you need to be careful because, you know, not everyone's nice in the industry. Uh, some people are just looking to fuck you over and take the hard work you've done and not credit you and take all the money. And that stuff's a lot more common in, I think, AAA than it is, um, in indie, because in indie people have seen other indies succeed, right?
01:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's cool. But yeah, you guys seem more like a tight knit and watch out for each other community. I mean, you have to be my experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Triple A. Shooters specifically, too. You know, if there's a feature that fans are going crazy over, I can mention the ping system in Apex Legends. It was born out of the desire to help players communicate without actually using voice chat. Yeah.
01:04:30
Speaker
because that can be a little toxic. Um, and so, you know, it gives you the ability to say like, yeah, there's a weapon here. I want to call your attention to, here's an enemy in the environment that you should look at. Here's like cover that we could take, or here's the direction I'm going in. Um, and do it very quickly. Uh, I recall, uh, I want to say, um, there was like some Fortnite devs.
01:04:53
Speaker
that try to emulate that same thing and the battle chatter that comes with it. And I don't think they realized how much work and preemptive effort and scheduling was required to make that feature good. So a lot of shooters will like copy each other's features and sometimes they may or may not pull them off because they don't realize how deep the rabbit hole goes with them.
01:05:22
Speaker
When I first saw that shit, my thought was, oh man, that's a lot of voiceover because you got to point out everything. Yeah. Like if your character points and like, you know, you could fall back to some generic lines over there. Hey. Oh my God. Hello.
01:05:40
Speaker
so we should be back there was a tight there was a slight technical hiccup there it wouldn't be a second win stream without a technical hiccup it was going very smoothly so it was going to wait until we're over an hour in but we're back um i literally cannot remember what we were talking about oh no people hearing on loop interested in seeing a new character
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, talking about the ping system. What were we saying about that? I made a comment. When games copy each other or try to get inspiration from each other on features, sometimes they don't know how far down the rabbit hole, how much work actually went into it. Yeah. And I guess you see that with genres, not just in the AAA space, but in the indie space, a lot of games will become incredibly popular.
01:06:28
Speaker
And then other games will try and emulate that, but not know why it succeeded and what it's doing. And they will look at it on a face value. Even to games that you've worked on that have emulated things successfully. But the Battle Royale genre is something that was emulated a lot. And for the most part, a lot of games got it wrong.
01:06:52
Speaker
Obviously, Apex Legends took its time to look at it and understand why it's working and then build atop that, which is something very rare to see in AAA, right? Like you said, innovation is difficult to get done in that space. Yeah, it was important that the team played battle royales when they went home at night rate to understand the community and the expectations and what was good and not good. But the other factor at the time before Apex came out,
01:07:21
Speaker
We were lucky in the same way that you, RJ, in trusting someone to come in and give you feedback. We brought in influencers. I think we brought in, what's his name? We brought in one influencer and his name escapes me right now and I feel really bad about it. But we asked him, you know, what he thought of the game and he said, you know what? I'm tired of playing a battle royale game that's in beta.
01:07:46
Speaker
Cause I think at the time a lot of the battle royales that were live were kind of buddy. Yeah. So, um, I think that sort of picked us in gear and said, okay, we're not going to release anything like that. It's going to be polished. And that we delayed our release by a couple months, maybe a little more.
01:08:04
Speaker
And you succeeded at that, right? Which I'm sure contributed to, you know, I think back then, it was one of the the first barrels that came out, like you said, that was polished and was ready. And it wasn't like here's an afterthought mode because PUBG is doing well. It was this is a game. Yeah, it's free. Go play. Yeah. And I think that's what set you guys apart. Yeah.
01:08:29
Speaker
All right, so I think it's probably time for us to get into some of our donations, go through some questions, because Tina, you're on a little bit of a deadline because you've got an interview, so we'll go through some of these. We may have seen some of these. Eric, if you see any, you've sent me a list, if there's any more, if you don't mind grabbing those for me so I don't have to trawl through, I appreciate you endlessly, Eric, you're the best.
01:08:55
Speaker
So first of all, Snake in the Garden gives two euros. Thank you so much. It says, welcome to Second Wind, Tina and Mikey. Thank you. And then we got the Reaper's Grimm. Name's been cut off, so I don't know if that's your full name. It gives 10 Canadian. Thanks so much. It says, welcome to Second Wind, and thank you for bringing your knowledge and experience to the community. Excited to do it. Thank you.
01:09:18
Speaker
One thing that we did talk about before this show went live was that, you know, a lot of discussions around games that aren't released yet are formed around speculation. And I think that for us specifically, the three of us can make a better informed piece of speculative discussions. And I think that's what's unique about us. Yeah. It's, it's going to be cool to get into this space and then get to the point where we're like,
01:09:45
Speaker
something happens in the industry. So we've been building up to releasing this podcast for months, right? And there's been things that happening in the industry. And I'm like, God damn, I really wish Dev Heads was like up and running because I would love to discuss this with you guys. And now that it's up, we can do that. We can just be like, we have an episode planned. Oh, big industry thing happened. Let's jump on that. Let's get our perspectives to the people on this and have fun discussing, fun time discussing it and stuff.
01:10:16
Speaker
Yeah. All right. So mankind's profit 10 quid. Thank you so much. It says because you are not bots or a recording and create games as a passion. Yeah. I think this is referring towards, um, you know, triple A and, um, what it takes to be a developer and stuff like that. We're not robots. Um, we're creating games is a passion. Um, and it is an artistic industry and it takes that. And a lot of people,
01:10:44
Speaker
because of the description of AAA being more of a space that is more of a factory floor in the terms of how it operates. You were speaking to something before the stream started about, you know, certain people you've spoken to who don't understand that deadlines are different for different departments and stuff like that. Yes. Yes. Someone says the game needs to be done by this state when you work in AAA.
01:11:11
Speaker
It's not always assumed and expected that producers, for instance, know that that date isn't the same across the entire studio. So if you support environment art and you're like, oh, we have until this deadline to get everything in environment art done, that's actually not the case.
01:11:32
Speaker
provide time for sound effects, VFX, code to get in there to make sure it's performant. So it's not like a... I like to work backwards and figure out when things need to get done. But yeah, like a lot of situational issues or maybe like small fires can kind of get brushed under the rug or like ignored or forgotten about in AAA. Like a lot of things just kind of bubble at the bottom and people don't always catch it.
01:12:03
Speaker
Because there's just so much going on. Yeah. And I think because of that, so much is going on and it's a little bit more formulaic and less crazy as it is with like indie and moving up towards AA. People view AAA less of an art form, which I think is untrue. Like just because it's produced in a different way does not mean that the devs who are working behind it aren't unbelievably passionate. Like one of the worst things I ever read
01:12:32
Speaker
Online is when people post and they don't like something that's come out and they say, oh, these devs didn't care. There is no reality where that is true. Like, unless they're being dragged by, you know, their publisher or something. Yeah. Yeah. To put it simply, I've never met a game developer that was lazy. I've never met a game developer who didn't like video games.
01:12:55
Speaker
I think we all try. I acknowledge there might be some exceptions to that, but if there are, to those two things at least. You might run into them in AAA. Fair enough. Maybe we can't afford them in AA. I think that's the perfect thing. You can't afford them in double or indie.
01:13:17
Speaker
shit won't get done. Like if you're not super passionate and gung-ho about the thing you're working on, the product will not come out. But like you said in AAA, some people are doing it as a nine to five. That doesn't mean they don't care, but it's less, God, I'm working every day on this thing because I'm just so in love with it.
01:13:38
Speaker
There's also a potential too for like, you know, with a big budget, you can just throw the problem at other people or more people to solve if a few people are, you know, not picking up their slack. Yeah. Or over scheduled or, you know, exhausted. Yeah.
01:13:58
Speaker
okay yeah we've got quite a few of these to get through so i'll get a move and move on so john brooks 20 quid thank you so much john says just wanting to say been looking forward to this pod since it was announced hell yeah hell yeah
01:14:13
Speaker
Um, and we had one from snake in the garden. What was the best post launch a celebration story? Yep. We've done that moving on. We got a member for five months. Chris S thank you so much. Kevin Schmidt is a just joined tip jar. Thank you. See you with the $2. It says don't know to upgrade Eric's internet.
01:14:33
Speaker
Shout out to Eric, we appreciate you. Big shout out to Eric, what a legend. Snake in the Garden gives two euro and says, it's not a real second win stream without technical issues, exactly. Wingpotato199 says, an appropriate welcome to the second wind experience. Yep, 100%. Yella, two quid. More for the new community goals for Eric's net.
01:15:00
Speaker
and right so these are these are some big ones that have come in so we've got hegato brie bunny which gives ten dollars and been wondering what uh what would define an unconventional route into game development not through code art or marketing production etc be uh from each of your viewpoints or
01:15:21
Speaker
or are those all the boxes that can be applied? Yeah. So can you get into the industry in different ways that don't include code and art and stuff? Absolutely. Does he want examples? It sounds like he does. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go for it. Okay. So I know someone who loves martial arts said, I want to be a game developer. I want to get involved in games somehow. My suggestion to them was do mocap.
01:15:43
Speaker
So you put on a suit for animators, do those crazy actions, get it recorded, they get thrown in the game, now you're a part of the game. I have a buddy that was a religious studies major, decided to mod in his free time, and now is a designer. I would say a lot of game developers are unconventional. There was no schools for game development when I was growing up. I am very old, by the way.
01:16:13
Speaker
No, you're not. By game dev standards, I think it's what do they say? Like six years or eight years is like a peak. Yeah. But yeah, you know, like if they're you can become a game developer just by sheer willpower and persistence and you know, just a little bit of luck. Yeah. And the first job you get doesn't have to be your dream job. It's a stepping stone to your dream job.
01:16:43
Speaker
Just get your foot in the door. Yeah, you're finding ways to get in and being passionate is the key, right? From what we've spoken about from indie double to triple A. One of the keys is being passionate and caring about what you're working on. Like Tina said, you don't have to be working on the exact thing you want to get into. A lot of people who want to get into character art will be getting jobs.
01:17:08
Speaker
Um, you know, doing prop design or, you know, working on some implementation and different jobs, but they're getting a foot in the door to move forward. So then you have your avenues to show people your passion, right? You might be working on something completely different, but you can be like, Hey, boss or producer, here's something I've been working on my free time. What do you think you're going to get invaluable feedback and you're going to show these guys that you're passionate and, um, you have the drive to do that stuff.
01:17:36
Speaker
So yeah, just put yourself forward and you'll eventually get there. Just don't give up.
01:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'll second all of that, really. I've worked with people and met people who were veterans, who then joined the modding community to make levels, then became level designers, who were modders just doing animations, who now work on Friggin Call of Duty, right? Find the thing that you like, develop the passion,
01:18:07
Speaker
Do it, I guess. Keep your expectations realistic, I guess is the first thing I would say. Like Tina is saying, your first thing might not be the awesome thing where you want to be, but that's okay. Be okay with getting experience. 100% get involved with modding and learn Unreal or Unity or Godot or what have you.
01:18:24
Speaker
and do it for the passion and just see where it takes you see what you like build a portfolio and i know all that's easier said than done but the tools have never been easier and resources have never been more plentiful. Is another story i have a good friend named tom who got his start in writing daytime soap operas.
01:18:49
Speaker
Right. And when we hired him for Apex, he was absolutely perfect because it was all about the drama between characters and driving their personalities and stuff. And now he's a game dev writer full time. And I absolutely love that. You know, so it's like, just do what you like. And then there's, there's probably something game dev that requires that skill.
01:19:10
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And also, when you create stuff, just be aware that the stuff you work on initially is going to be hot garbage, and that's okay. When we start in a career, anyone, doesn't matter what you're doing, you are going to- It's grant work. It's not gonna be fun.
01:19:25
Speaker
Yeah. And learning is difficult, but you need to fall in love with the learning process and improving and seeing those small incremental increases in your skill and be being proud of that and showing it off.
Career Progression and Networking
01:19:41
Speaker
Right. The thing I've made doesn't look like what it looks like in AAA. They're never going to hire me. That's not true. These people all started where you're when you're starting. They understand and they'll love seeing that passion. They'll love seeing that.
01:19:54
Speaker
that increase in skill like just keep at it don't give up it's all good let me give one more yeah we can move to the next one yeah sure i know i won't say his name just in case i'd love to have him on i hope we will he was a competitive fps gamer and then he was in uh he was french police he was in a tactical unit like a door kicker and then he owns his own company now and makes video games yeah
01:20:18
Speaker
It can be really unconventional the way you get involved in gaming. Yeah. Cool. That's mental. Yeah. So literally do anything.
01:20:27
Speaker
You know, do anything and you'll become a game developer. Like lay flat on the floor and close your eyes and when you open your eyes, you'll be a game developer. You close your eyes and you'll be an Infinity Wars making fun of houses. How Kojima was born out here. He just woke up one day. He just apparated. He's like, I'm going to make a bunch of auteur ass video games. Yeah. He sat on the toilet and he just went, do you know what? Metal gear sounds pretty cool. I like the way that sounds. Sounds good. I'm going to pursue it.
01:20:55
Speaker
yeah that's it you know and then you lay on the floor for a bit right okay the donations are pouring in so i'm gonna i'm gonna get through these because i know we're on a little bit of a time stretch stay the guns as tina that wall pick behind your shoulder is that a toilet
01:21:09
Speaker
This? No, it's one of those things that you spin to see like an animation from a drawing. It was at Disneyland. I'm holding my little daughter right there. Oh, that's lovely. I need to hang stuff up. Like, this is my video. See these drones? These drones are cool. They're made by hand. I got my Marvel versus Capcom 2 gameplay soundtrack vinyl right here. Shout out to that. Hell yeah. I need to hang stuff up.
01:21:38
Speaker
Alright, new sub goal, Eric internet and hangers for Tina, so Tina can hack the box. The high quality stuff too. Oh yeah, the good stuff. Sticky tape. Yeah. So, Wizard of the Void, $10, thank you. Doing my part for upgrading Eric's internet, really love seeing developers speak, hell yeah.
01:21:59
Speaker
Hell yeah. CSI Freak 99, not 99, £9.99 says, my son studied creative writing and has so many story ideas, which I think could be turned into playable games. Who would he approach in the industry to see if it's plausible to create these? So that's that's interesting. Yeah.
01:22:22
Speaker
Yeah. Who would you approach? Like if you have an idea, who are you going to? Who are you talking to? So I think the craziest thing about social media is it gives you a doorway into the video game industry in a way that other platforms
01:22:38
Speaker
haven't been able to do right. So you can hop on Twitter, for instance, and reach out directly to a writer of any video game that's there and say, hey, I would love your advice. And a lot of us are willing to share feedback or even mentor when we can.
01:22:55
Speaker
take that opportunity. It's all about networking and trying to not be afraid to ask questions and be curious. You really shouldn't. The worst thing you could do is be scared of reaching out to a developer because then you'll never know if they respond or not.
01:23:16
Speaker
And, you know, I'd love to believe that as developers we want more in our community. So we're happy to just chit chat or even provide our take on things. Ask for feedback. To that, whoever just messaged that, DM me on Twitter. I have some resources I can share with you that have been shared with me.
01:23:37
Speaker
by somebody who's more experienced rather than myself. I'm happy to share them with you. The dev underscore Mikey on Twitter is the best way to reach me. My DMS are open. In the DMS say rutabaga. That'll be the code word. So I'll know it's you. And then I'll know it's you and I'll give you the, you're going to get like 10 rutabaga messages. That'll be, that's part of the, that's part of the challenge here. We'll see if the passion is there. If they spell rutabaga, right?
01:24:04
Speaker
I do hope that this podcast can be that first door you open when you're curious about game dev in general. Hell yeah. Things are bleak at the moment in the industry, but it's not all bad. And if we can be a spark,
01:24:19
Speaker
to help you towards, you know, potential career path to explore your passions. That's where we want to be at. The next donation, the next donation is from Nick. It says, Mikey, Mikey, tell the VO closet story, but we have so many other donations that I think I'm going to VO Nick's donation. We're going to save that for another one and we'll see how many times we can get a donation from Nick.
01:24:46
Speaker
The video closet story. Just milk that. Yeah, I'm following your lead. Okay, cool. Because we've got so many others and I know we're on a bit of a timeframe. Sorry, Nick. Not sorry. Jordan Greer gives $2 and says, um, tell me about bird poo. So here's another one. All right. Okay. All right. You have the picture too.
01:25:13
Speaker
That's a picture of, all right, well, I have to tell this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were in Amsterdam, Nick, that's how Nick and I met. And when we met, like, geez, it would have been like 2018, he did a documentary on Insurgency Sandstorm, right? And on New World Interactive. And he came to Amsterdam and he filmed an interview. And I forget when exactly it happened. Nick probably remembers better than Nick. But there was a moment where we were all hanging out, walking around outside in pretty Amsterdam.
01:25:40
Speaker
And I got the wettest, widest flack of bird shit right on the top of my head. And that's the picture that you're looking at right there. I'm grateful it didn't get on like my face or my jacket or like anything nice. And it was just my hair, but I had to go home. I had to shower that shit out, dude. It was a real bad bird shit. Now, because this bird shit happened,
01:26:01
Speaker
and because i met nick through this experience and then connected with him in the fall after he left the escapist and pitched him on this show that brings us here and closes the gap so that the bird shit is a part of all this experience really so if he didn't get shit on literally he wouldn't be here right now
01:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Because Nick and I talked about I think Nick had the idea for this show already. But but I came to him and he's like, yeah, we could do something like that. And then I, as you guys know, made the pitch deck. And yeah, this shit is just a part of that whole story. Really. Yeah, 100 percent. It was this it was this big wombo combo. Like I've wanted to do the podcast fee for Yanks. Nick's wanted to get it set up. You wanted to do it. Tina wanted like it's literally just it's all come together. I'm super excited about where this is. I'm all going to go.
01:26:47
Speaker
So we haven't even seen our personalities really shine through yet or our humor. Not yet. And I promise you, this is going to get unhinged as fuck. Yeah. Thank you, Nick, for not asking my permission before you showed the internet and the world a picture of bird shit on my face. I really appreciate that. I'm going to remember that.
01:27:09
Speaker
Um, still got quite a few to go through. So, Chris Lady says, I can imagine in AAA being passionate about your specific work, but deciding not to care about the overall project to maintain sanity.
Passion versus Project Direction
01:27:20
Speaker
Is that common to do that?
01:27:22
Speaker
Uh, yeah, it depends. I mean, when you're working on a AAA game, it's not always likely that you are in love with the direction the game goes in because it's, there's just so many stakeholders, right? Um, and you know, sometimes like, I was in a situation where I remember, um, Todd Alderman, uh, one of the,
01:27:43
Speaker
I think he was the game director at the time on Apex Legends, had his idea for the character select screen for Apex. And it's sort of like a fighting game character select screen where you're just like everyone at once trying to pick their character. And I remember telling him like on the sofa, I'm like, dude, it took me like 10 years to work with you. And this is like the worst idea I think you've had.
01:28:05
Speaker
Just as a shooter player, like, I don't want to fight for who I want to be. And he just smiled and looked at me and was like, people are going to fucking love it. And he was right.
01:28:14
Speaker
You know, so, and in the moment I was like, I don't really like working on all this, but it was, it's like, it is so good. I think. Hell yeah. Right. So, um, from Raziel with a hundred, I think Polish currency that I don't know the name of apologies. A warm welcome to the new heads. I hope you'll have a great time here.
01:28:42
Speaker
Or more donation. I'm trying to help Nick out here. I'm trying to clean out his ears.
01:28:47
Speaker
So, um, okay. So here's the question. What kind of topics, uh, from Anthony Lynch with $20, thank you so much. It says, what kind of topic do you, uh, topics do you have planned for future podcasts? Besides the Yahtzee interview, um, are there plans to bring in other devs?
Future Podcast Directions
01:29:02
Speaker
Um, yeah, there's plans to bring in lots of devs. We have, we've had, oh God, there he is. Um, we've had lots of, uh, devs reach out already, which is super, super cool. Um, before we've even done our first episode, we've had some big names in the industry reach out, which is really cool.
01:29:17
Speaker
But yeah, we're hoping to bring on lots of different devs from lots of different backgrounds to talk about lots of different things. We haven't got anyone specifically locked down yet, but you will always see me, Mikey, and Tina discussing, you know, the ins, outs, and goings on of game dev. And occasionally we'll get devs big from AAA, but also from all the way down to Surly devs at indie with Vyazi.
01:29:43
Speaker
discussing, you know, more of the same. Just like, what is it like to do our jobs? What are the hang ups? What are the pros cons? And what's happening in the industry? So yeah, you can look forward to a lot of stuff.
01:29:57
Speaker
We got another Rare as AL member five months says, oh, by the way, happy birthday, second win, six months. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been six months. We're doing a big fundraiser towards the end of the month to keep us going in the right direction. So if you want to hop on for that and support us, that's great. And the same for Patreon.
01:30:20
Speaker
If you love our content and you're watching right now and you want to see more of this and you want to help support us making this type of content, why not check out the Patreon? It goes directly to funding all of us and making all of our shows, all of our podcasts, all of our streams. So yeah, if you love us, support us if you got it.
01:30:39
Speaker
Right a couple more then we should be good Rambla monkey in future. We'll start doing this sooner. I didn't know you guys were so generous goddamn Rambla monkey gives $20 and says was late to my eye appointment So I got booted off the list so hit so have some dosh instead happy to see my car again We'll listen back later. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry about the appointment shit. That sucks Yeah, it's not ideal but
01:31:13
Speaker
HecatoBreeBunny again, thank you so much, says, getting messed on equals game dev thanks team. Also, revolution against captain of these nuts. Yeah, I mean, one day we will, we will overthrow our overlord, Nick. I mean, we shouldn't actually, he does, he does too much. But, but hey, we have to, we have to put up with the these nut strokes. MikeyTheManiac gives $10, thank you, and says, any tips for someone who is looking to switch jobs to a game studio next year?
01:31:31
Speaker
They can spoil us, so that's great. So swing some arms, Bob.
01:31:41
Speaker
how to network while not ready to immediately start work. Artist currently in comic book studio, looking to go into game dev. That's a good question.
01:31:51
Speaker
A lot of artists that I've worked with post their portfolios on ArtStation and I think their contact information is available there as well. I would just start hitting up people as many as you want, getting a feel for what they do, ask them for feedback on your portfolio, see what kind of things those studios want out of you, and then hopefully you can add that stuff to your repertoire. Art is a very unique
01:32:18
Speaker
seeing where the art style may vary between games, so being able to show how flexible you are in your skill could be good. But again, you don't really know what kind of art style they're looking for unless you ask. So I would hit up art directors of Game Studios. You can Google the credits of your favorite games, and I would start there.
01:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'll second that. And I'll also add, as far as specific networking strategies, a lot of cold calling on LinkedIn, cold calling on Twitter, cold calling in general is pretty helpful. Having portfolios is nice. Being succinct, like brief, like in your email outreach, asking for people's advice and such, and then
01:33:01
Speaker
and sharing that. It's cool that you already have the art background, so that's further ahead than a lot of other people might be. And now it just comes to the kind of sucky persistence that you will need to get your foot in the door somehow. That would be my recommendation. Yeah. I mean, artists from games show up at Comic-Con and GDC and
01:33:25
Speaker
you know, big game, big events like that. So if you can, you know, if you have the fortunate opportunity to make it out to something like that, I would do that. Yeah. You've got a wedge in the network. If you're working at it, you said a comic book studio. So I think you you're more in than you might realize. Just just push a little bit deeper in.
01:33:42
Speaker
transitioning might be a little bit easier, right? It might be easier to transition because you've developed a skill set and then developers might be looking for that and you just need to slightly adjust in a certain direction and it might be good. That's a good thing in chat. I'll do this before I read out the final ones.
01:34:00
Speaker
Oh, I would also say, you know, there's nothing stopping you from drawing a character from a beloved franchise that you may like and posting it on social media with like hashtags of that game or to the developers of that game just to get more, garner more attention to your skill set. Yeah, that's true. Also, hi, Ludo. It's Ludo. Hello. High five. Do you count skyrockets?
01:34:30
Speaker
If you can 3D model, that's probably great. Oh yeah, 3D modeling is extremely transferable. It's like you said, the wide skill set is really nice, especially being an artist. So learning some of those things is good too and throwing it in the portfolio. 100%. And I think our final donation, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Eric, snake in the garden with the two euros says, don't worry, Mikey, we know it's Nick who likes poop.
01:34:56
Speaker
I'm not worried at all. It's all good. There's at least one worst image on the internet I know of me, which I won't describe, but I'm sure I'll see it again someday. Hopefully not on the podcast. We'll see. Oh, no, it's nothing that. It'd be appropriate to show, but it'd be embarrassing. You just don't want to. Okay, fair. Yeah, that's funny. There's a story.
01:35:22
Speaker
Okay, time to get down later. Thank you for anyone asking questions about how to break into the industry. I'd love updates on how it's going too.
01:35:32
Speaker
show us that journey, you know? Um, and it doesn't have to be through donations. Um, once this podcast gets, you know, going and stuff specifically me as a dyslexic man, we'll get, it'll get easier for me to start reading stuff as it's going by and you know, um, we'll get more comfortable with that. So we'll pick up on these things in the chat at the moment. We've just kind of read a few donations because it's easier to spot because they get highlighted, but we'll be getting to that stuff. We want to see your journey. Like I said, message us on Twitter to tell us what you're up to, you know, tweet us.
01:36:01
Speaker
Um, and I think that might be a good from George Lucas real quick. Uh, he asked if me or Mike have pets and I just wanted to show my dog all of beauty. This is all of very cute. Great name. I used to be a dog person. Uh, I don't have a pet now, but I grew up as a dog person. I had dogs my whole life.
01:36:26
Speaker
Love dogs, they're the best. Speaking of dogs, we've just had a member for three months from Andrew Schurg, which says, Ludo appreciation, shout out. Yeah, she's had quite a busy day, so she's been asleep this entire stream. But for future streams, for our watchers and not listeners, you'll be able to see Ludo exploring because she is real, as a lot of people don't assume. So yeah, I think
01:36:48
Speaker
That kind of brings us perfectly to a closing time because Tia needs to leave shortly. So I just want to remind people that this entire podcast is funded by you guys. So if you enjoy this type of stuff, come support us on Patreon. It keeps this stuff going. It means we can do more of these cool
01:37:10
Speaker
podcast events, you know, maybe one day we can do an event where I travel over to these guys because you guys live relatively close and we can do it one in person and that would be really cool. So if you love this content, come support us a quick update on design delves.
01:37:25
Speaker
This episode of Dev Heads is coming out now. There was meant to be a design delve next week, but now there isn't. So what we're going to do is we're going to delay it. So every Friday, alternating from design delve to dev heads, you're always going to have a piece of dev content every Friday. So it means you're going to have to wait a week extra to get design delve, but it means you're going to get something every Friday. So that's going to be really, really cool. So the next time we're back is on the 24th.
01:37:55
Speaker
Yes, and we're back on the 24th with our next episode, because it's every two weeks for DevHeads. And we're going to have our first guest, which is going to be our very own Yachty Croshaw, talking about and celebrating the release of his game, which he solo developed, but also celebrating his birthday. It's simultaneously his birthday and also the release of his game. So we're going to be talking about what it's like to develop as a solo dev, the trials and tribulations of that.
01:38:21
Speaker
And yeah, have a good time. But yeah, is there anything you would like to say, Mikey?
01:38:28
Speaker
I'm super excited about this. This is an awesome opportunity. Thank you, everybody, for your questions. I saw some personal notes of appreciation, some friends in the chat. I just want to say thanks, guys. Honestly, I really appreciate it on a personal level, and I'm excited. I already have done some outreach to some guests. I think that we could have some really interesting conversations on here.
01:38:52
Speaker
this is a i think these voices i think they should be in the space thank you for listening to us as developers and appreciate that you're here. Hell yeah tina.
01:39:03
Speaker
I think we're a little bit buttoned up this episode because it's our first, but you'll see that we're a little bit ridiculous at times, and I look forward to sharing that with you all, especially because I feel like my humor is pretty wild. I also wanted to say that I started my game journalist experience with OneUp and podcasting, and I missed it dearly for a very long time.
01:39:27
Speaker
In game development, I didn't always have the opportunity to speak as freely as I wanted to, but on this I can, so I look forward to just shooting the shit and being candid with you all.
01:39:46
Speaker
Fucking it. Sorry. And I talk and I talk shit. So we're all. Yeah, we're all we're all coming from the angle. All scatological here. Let me say thanks to Eric to like, Eric, we see you. Everybody, please say we see you, Eric, in the chat because he deserves that recognition. Thank you, Eric, for getting this like all the support that you've been doing for this. We love you, Eric. Thank you, Eric.
01:40:12
Speaker
So from my perspective, just the last thing, a design delve released today with me sitting down with Riot Mort Dog, the lead designer of Teamfight Tactics, made by Riot Games, talking about why it's so difficult to balance multiplayer games. It's actually one of my favorite videos that I've ever released. So if you haven't checked that out, go check that out on Second Wind right now. But yeah, other than that, that has been us, the dev heads, and we will see you in two weeks in the next one. Bye bye, guys. Bye, everybody. Bye.