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Did Our Childhood Games Infect Us? (ft. Julia Minamata) | Dev Heads Podcast
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This week, the Dev Heads crew is joined by indie developer Julia Minamata to discuss what childhood games inspired us as kids, and how has that lead to where we are today in our careers.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship by Game Maker
00:00:00
Speaker
This video is brought to you by Game Maker, the free, fast, and easy to use 2D game engine that helps power modern classics like Undertale, Hotline Miami, and Hyper Light Drifter. Starter templates, official asset bundles, and a wealth of tutorials are available to help bring your ideas to life. And you can export and share your game for free on all non-console platforms. But you don't have to take my word for it, I'm just some jerk. We have an actual bonafide Game Maker-er on hand. Oh shit, that's me. Yes, I've been using GameMaker for a long time. It's probably the most powerful and easiest to use engine for making 2D games out there, suitable for both amateurs and hardcore coders, and with all the Steam and console integration stuff for when you're ready to start monetizing your hobbies. I used it to make my recently released game, Starstruck Vagabond, which has already delighted thousands of sci-fi cozy game aficionados, thanks to GameMaker being so bloody great.
Meet the Hosts and Julia Minamata
00:00:51
Speaker
Head on over to the GameMaker link in the description to begin your game development journey today.
00:01:05
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Dev Heads, the podcast focused on the ins, outs and goings on of game development. We have host experience ranging from indie to double A to triple A. You'll notice that our indie representation is not here today. Jay is going to be joining us a little bit later into the stream, but I joined today by Tina. Say hi, Tina. Hey, how's it going? And I, we got, uh, all of here in the background cause Ludo's, we got ol all of A or triple A. Uh, I think she's triple A like me. Yeah. she lays there sweet Lazy triple A devs. Yeah. She's waiting for a new build. Yeah. I like that. Uh, am of course representing double A as usual and perhaps the substitute for Jay, but not really. We have a solo dev, Julia Minamata here. Julia say hello.
Julia Minamata and The Crimson Diamond
00:01:53
Speaker
Hello, how are you guys? We're doing good. Thank you so much for joining us. Julia is working on an old school throwback EGA text parser mystery adventure game called the Crimson Diamond. And before we kind of jump into our main topic for the day, which is about how these games sort of infect us as children, I kind of want to ask Julia, like maybe if you give a rundown of what your game is and also like, what does EGA mean? What does text parser mean? ah Talk to us like the lay people we might be for those who don't know what adventure games are like. Yeah, of course. Yeah, the Crimson Diamond is ah my solo developed. As we mentioned, I'm the not really substitute for JMA today. He's going to be coming in and in a bit. But um yeah, it's ah it's a solo developed, self-published, self-funded, EGA, text parser, adventure game. like you might have seen if you were around back in those times, like late 80s, early 90s, in that sweet spot of that particular palette, which is that EGA, it's like this very specific 16 color palette that you would see in a lot of DOS games and things like that. It would maybe be around for really popular for maybe a few years, and then we moved on to, you know, some people would say bigger and better things, I would i would argue, but
00:02:56
Speaker
that's so that's what it um That's where it got started. And that was my primary inspiration. So this is the perfect subject for us to discuss today. um yeah And it's ah it's coming out some August 15th. It's a cozy mystery adventure game set in Canada, which is also where I am. And yeah, i've I've done every bit and on it except for the music. um That was my wonderful musician, Dan Pollakar, who did use a genuine Roland MT-32 for this game, which is a a synth made, that was was really kind of not really popular back in the day because it was so expensive, but um it has a beautiful sound to it, very authentic.
Journey into Game Development
00:03:28
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The game will sound and look like you remember those old adventure games looking and sounding, but hopefully it's going to play a little bit better. I tried to take some game design inspiration and and learn a little bit from the times when it was kind of
00:03:40
Speaker
uncharted territory. yeah So sure i'm i'm I'm just meeting you for the first time and I'm just fascinated by you creating and funding your own game. Um, you know, a lot of gamers and even devs sit, you know, at their tables or, you know, at the, at the catches playing games, thinking like, I want to do this one day. I think a lot of us have had that idea, right? Like I just want to create my own game. You actually did it. where did Where did that motivation to make it happen start? And like, how do you even start to create your own game?
00:04:20
Speaker
It was an accident, actually. um yeah game yeah Yeah, this game is dark yeah yeah it was a mistake. No, it's not a mistake. It was an accident. ah the game The game is about seven to ten hours long. So it's it's a standard kind of adventure game like gameplay. And I would not recommend anyone. OK, if anyone here is thinking about making their own game, the first piece of advice that anyone ever gives is start small. Don't don't do anything big, start small. And I might have taken that advice had I known that's what I was doing. I kind of just watered into it. I wasn't planning on making a game until I get to a point where I'm like, OK, it looks like a game, so why don't we try to finish this thing off? And that was six years ago.
Showcasing and Feedback
00:04:56
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um But yeah, i I started it just as doing pixel art, just doing pixel art, looking at the old screenshots that I loved from those old games. And I wanted to recreate that look while doing something original. And the game kind of happened organically over time and until until about November 2018.
00:05:14
Speaker
When I first showed the demo publicly, I submitted to a showcase here in Toronto called Wordplay. and i thought I didn't think I was going to get for it first of all because a lot of people submitted. There's only like 20, 25 showcase spots. They happened to get in. It was the first time I actually publicly showed the project. and It was, of course, super rough, but it was pretty much the first chapter of the demo, as you can see on Steam right now. And I got such a positive reception that I thought, OK, well, this iss there's something here. Maybe there's there's an interest here. and And so why don't I try to see where this goes? And I slowly I was still doing contract work.
Tools and Community Support
00:05:45
Speaker
I was still doing freelance illustration. I slowly just started to pick at it and just slowly teach myself the things I would need to know to finish it. And then I i thought, hey, um yeah, why don't I go for it? And so here we are. So you created the art and then um
00:06:01
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Did you, ah what engine did you use? How did you go about actually putting that art into a game experience? Yeah, this is something I'm really happy about. Adventure Game Studio is what I'm using, which is the same engine as Francisco Gonzalez used for all his Ben Jordan games. He used it on Lamplight City. He's currently working on Rosewater. Wajidai Games used it on Onavowed and all their games. Yatsikroshai himself used it for his development though, for his adventure games. And yeah, it it was perfect because Being self-taught, it was wonderful to have an engine that was purpose-built exactly for adventure games. And I'm so happy that I came around when there was a time where these tools are much more easy to use and easy to learn because we have YouTube tutorials as well.
Influences and Inspirations
00:06:43
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There's is still a thriving AGS community that still updates the software. It's it's been really a great choice. And um yeah, i'm I'm really pleased with also seeing other people and other adventure game devs and kind of getting to know them as well through this common engine. Oh.
00:07:01
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It's very interesting. ah um I'm curious to hear more about your sort of history of this and like kick kicking off the topic here I suppose is at what point do you feel like you got the bug? Like when were you infected? When did you as a child like before your developer before i'm I'm talking way back. um when At what point were you like, or no, here's a better way to say it. What was the context in which you discovered this genre and and fell in love with it? Was it a limitation of computer hardware? Was it being bored and just looking for the first game you found on the shelf? ah What did that look like?
00:07:33
Speaker
Right. So this is, I've spoken to a lot of people who are adventure game lovers and a lot of us have a very similar story and that our dads worked in offices and those dads would share computer games amongst each other and they would just copy them on floppy. So a lot of pirating was happening and I'm so sorry for that, but it was, I am. Are you apologizing for all piracy? Yes, I am. I am. You're not going to take that mantle up on your shoulders. Thank you, Julia. That's very brave of you. If that's okay with you guys, I'll do that. Okay, we got Jay. He's just going to join us and we'll get right back to you, Julia. There you go. Jay, you got us? Hello? Wait, I need to set my camera up. That would have been smart to do instantaneously, I think. That's okay. That's okay.
00:08:20
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Julia, what's your favorite color? I i may be yellow, I guess.
Childhood Gaming Memories
00:08:23
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I like a warm yellow. um Maybe I like it because EGA does not have a warm yellow. but It's the color you yearned for.
00:08:34
Speaker
That's awesome. okay yeah well here While Jay gets set up, Julia, so so go ahead. You were saying like that that ah dads and offices sharing the floppies. Yeah, the cabal of ah pirating dads in the office where that's kind of my first experience and exposure to like a wide variety of, you know, DOS games and everything. My dad um also got to bring home what was called a portable computer back in the day, which was a 30-pound suitcase-sized compact of some model. I can't remember exactly what, but, you know, the screen is this big, you know, black black and green display. And I remember seeing King's Quest, and it kind of really took me aback because all the other games were, you know, super arcadey kind of games where you needed to be
00:09:13
Speaker
hand-eye coordination really good. I'm still not good at those things. And when there was a game that just kind of sat and waited for you to to do a thing, that was a big difference for me. like I instantly knew that this is more my speed, which is, yeah, it's just you you set your own you sets your own speed for whatever you're doing. And you could actually like take in the graphics you're seeing, like you know the castle and the moat and everything. And even just being a really bookish kid, this idea of having an interactive story that I could i could play was what really made a big impact on me. and
00:09:45
Speaker
Well, from that mixed bag, we, you know, we could ask for computer game for Christmas and our birthday because back in those days, these things cost, you know, 70, $80 and you would get the pirate of games. But if you wanted a real big box game that was, you know, fresh and fresh off the shelves, you would have to ask for for Christmas for your birthday. And every, you know, every year since when my, when my dad was bringing us these games, I would ask for adventure games. Hmm. And this interesting thing, I feel like you brought up. Go ahead, Tina. Yeah. I was just going to ask what her favorite adventure game is. What's your favorite adventure game? See, this is a tough one because ah my game is a cozy mystery and it looks a lot like The Colonel's Bequest, which is a Sierra game. And I love those games very, very much. But if I had to say actual game, like well-rounded, all
00:10:30
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um ah In all aspects, I would probably have to say the Secret of Monkey Island EGA.
Art and Aesthetics in Gaming
00:10:35
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um The game design. We just had Tim Shafer on, by the way. yeah was just like oh This seat is still warm from when Tim was here, is what I was going to say. It was so cool to see him on there because yeah he's obviously... um huge hero of mine. I actually, um, for the limited run games, monkey and my monkey Island anthology, I actually got to make his portrait in EGA as well as a lot, yeah as well as a lot of other of the the look player yeah well you know small world David Grossman, um, you know, uh, Tim Shafer, uh, Ron Gilbert. There he is now. Yes. There we go. Yeah. That's the portrait I did for the book. You have the limited run games, um, anthology you've got, you've got some of my art. There you go.
00:11:16
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and This is so good as well. yeah I want to say, Julia, something you brought up there is interesting to me because now I'm thinking about the time where those games were out and popular. And yeah, there were the side scrollers, right, that were, ah you know, they required more reflexes and stuff. But also I feel like if you're a person who's maybe a little bit more of an aesthetic gamer, like you want to get more immersed into a world or ah or a mood and you want to paste kind of gameplay. you Would be an adventure gamer because the alternative is jumping up and down and dodging the slow projectiles etc so do it sounds like that might have been an angle to and i feel like if i were playing more games at that time that might have been mine i was i was playing like bio menace which i talked to you about that was my only real.
00:12:01
Speaker
ega That's an EGA game, right? Because of the color palette. so And ah it was good, but it scared the shit out of me as a kid, ah because of the big monsters and stuff. But um that was my only experience there. ah But if I had found adventure games, that might have been more my speed. Oh, there's Biominus now. Thank you, Eric, as always. Yeah, i've been I've been playing it on my stream as ah as a channel redemption. yeah
Impressions and Influence of Games
00:12:21
Speaker
I'll play Biominus for 10 minutes. And I've actually gotten through the first two episodes as three episodes. And if you watch me play this, you can see why I gravitated toward adventure games. I'm terrible at these games. I never got any better. Well, they're hard too. like theyre They're pretty demanding. yeah Super punishing as well because of their age difficulties really changed in games. yeah I wish I played more adventure games as a kid. I think one of the reasons I didn't was because I didn't get a PC until my teens. So, um ah well, my grandmother had a PC, but that was basically only good enough to play RuneScape at two FPS and
00:12:57
Speaker
like but Club Penguin. So I couldn't really play anything that I wanted to. I used to go to um in England, we have like a game store. Well, it's more of a computer store and they'd have PC games there. And I always used to go there with my mum for her to get something and see all the PC games. And they were like, to me, the adult, like special games and the games that I couldn't get on console. And I always really wanted to play them. So I've had a lot of fun going back in and indulging um in those games, just like Legend of Monkey Island. Such a great game, something that I missed when when I was younger.
00:13:32
Speaker
um Yeah. I just was like, Julia, it's lovely to meet you. I'm sorry to get you to this entire meeting. no it's good it's kind Um, apologies to Tina and Mikey and the fans. I wasn't meant to be here at all. You know, it is what it is. We just, travel man yeah. The drive that was meant to take three hours took five. Um, ah I have driven longer than I have slept in the last three days. So I'm i'm a bit under the weather, but, um, thank you for waiting. i I've got like a ZZZZ on my name. Um, but yeah, for, For me, I'm trying to think of a game that impacted me to like where I am today. I guess I just made a video on it with um the Beyond Good and Evil video if anyone in chat has seen that. But um I've not gone to go on and make games in that kind of style, but I think aesthetically and
00:14:22
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narratively, they can have a big impact as well. um It's it's just like that kind of I'm not sure if you've said it yet, Mikey, what you said about um Tim Schafer and the imprinting. Have you mentioned that yet? No, I didn't. I'll say that, yeah. So part of the inspiration for why we're doing this, you know, topic in this stream is because of a comment Tim made in our ah last stream, ah which was something about how I forget the exact context of something like, well, you know, a lot of games, they imprint us on us as the, as at a young age and we get attached to them.
00:14:55
Speaker
Hearing that from Tim Schaeffer, but you could easily crown as being the king of whimsy and fantasy and and childlike wonder to say something as as ah objective and scientific as like, well, we just got imprinted on, like there's nothing magical about it. Maybe give me pause. But it also was interesting because it's true. Like to some degree, a lot of the games that everybody who's watching right now and everybody taught, we are all four of us, all five of us, including Eric, like there were games that we play and they're there might have been a degree of just like it got us at the right place at the right time. Uh, in addition to, you know, the magic and the specialness of what they are.
Industry Insights and Influential Figures
00:15:30
Speaker
But, uh, but it's funny because that combination is kind of what we're exploring today because, uh, every game, sometimes it's the right timing. Do you, do you have, so I'm not sure if you've mentioned, yeah, Tina, if you, if you have one, what was your style? Tina's imprint. Yeah. Oh man. Um,
00:15:50
Speaker
It's hard to pick one. I started playing games in 1987, seven 88. How dare you, Jay? You're so young. Let Tina talk. You'd be younger than Tina. ah Um, so yeah, I like shooters in general left a huge impact on me. I can't explain why. Um, but there weren't many around like an NES era, right? Um, I enjoyed the Contra, but it was like really chaotic for me as a kid. I think double seven, uh, golden eye.
00:16:30
Speaker
Left a huge mark on me. um Playing that with my sisters. ah You know, playing N64 with my sisters. There's four of us, four girls in Underwood Roof. How's the oldest? Eldest. Who's the best at GoldenEye? Oh, me of course. Who do play nobody play on? job Yeah, we have to talk about our job. Yeah, I played as Zena. My sister played as Boris because I made her because I just thought that guy was funny to shoot.
00:16:59
Speaker
so don' god yeah you played fish But you know, it was just like really at the co-op experience, I think is what like really drew me in. um Uh, and then obviously call of duty, uh, had a huge impact on my life. The first and second one. Um, it made me want to get into video games. Um, it's funny how that happens, right? You just play them and then one franchise or just game style or type just draws you into wanting to make one yourself. Um, I'm just, yeah, it's, it's funny how we have, you know, the,
00:17:37
Speaker
other game devs to thank for inspiring us and I um wonder if that's unique to our industry in general. it's you don't I wanted to meet the people that made these games and I think that's really rare. um And they kind of inspired me to be on the path I am now. Um, that's interesting. Yeah. Cause you know, when you watch the Oscars and stuff, you, you can visualize and see that the people that made them, and you know, we all know Steven Spielberg, um, but in video games, you don't really,
00:18:13
Speaker
We don't really have a huge outlet for that. It's a little more mysterious. yeah It's less about the name. it's more Not to say that teams are not deeply involved with making films and and shows, but but ah the perception of games, at least, is that it is more collaborative and it's more you're more likely to hear people say, ah It depends on the person, but like people know from software, they don't know all the leadership team. ah Then there's exceptions, right? Hideo Kojima, the auteur, or Tim Schafer. There's names in it, but there's more teams than names. yeah like Julia, have you met anyone from Sierra Games that worked on your adventure games that you liked so much? it's Yeah, it's funny you should ask that. um I was just at an an event last weekend called the Adventure Game Hotspot in Sierra.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So ah what i one of the things I love about Sierra Games is that Roberta Williams, um they put the people on the back of the box that were leading these projects. So you saw Roberta Williams, you know, who made King's Quest and, you know, Colonel's Bequest and Laurie and Corey Cole who made the quest for glory games and Christy Marks and Lorelei Shannon. um Everyone. I love the fact that they did that. I love the fact that they they had women in these prominent creative lead positions back in those times.
The Evolution of Adventure Games
00:19:24
Speaker
And you got yeah you got to see them as, oh, these are the people. And I actually got to meet Roberta, of course, um for the first time. I got her to sign my Colonel's request big box um as well. And Douglas Herring as well, who did the art on that, who is an incredible artist and an incredible influence on me.
00:19:38
Speaker
And it's yeah, it's wonderful that they they kind of did do that um as in kind of as in contrast to a lot of other companies. And yeah yeah, I think especially for I guess when you think about adventure games and the story, yeah they're all story. And you the idea of having almost like an author for the games is is maybe something that they were thinking about. But I do love the fact that they had so many prominent developers that kind of almost got to be like, yeah, little mini celebrities in their own right. And they were treated like that at this event last weekend. It was fantastic. creates that community. yeah and And like you said, featuring a lot of um really high up executive women. Do you do you reckon that was that was an inspiration to you when you were younger? like seeing oh yeah Seeing the things you made and seeing that um women were behind it, because that is a huge problem in our industry, the other representation of women. And to see that at a young age, I would hope would would inspire you.
00:20:29
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I loved being able to play as a female protagonist. That that was not yeah super common. No, not at all. Kings Quest IV. I love that because you know that was this in the end, and of course, Laura Bow in the Laura Bow games. Yeah, that was it was huge. And to see that, yeah, these are these women that she's the head of this company. And and you know there's these other series like Laurie Cole as well. It's a fantastic creative person. um Yeah, it was it was that was probably one of the reasons why yeah Sierra Games We're so big for me is that we got to see that and that was not common. I don't it might be tough because I don't know, you know, the exact demographics of our people who watch and listen. But it should be noted for those who don't know, Sierra was a fucking powerhouse of the time, right? They were creating and publishing so many interesting projects. Even if they were doing like, even if they weren't creating or publishing it, odds are they probably knew the people making the game, or they had talked to them at some point. like They didn't publish Doom, but they talked to the guys that did Doom. They were a real force at the time, and they put out a ton of adventure games among so many others. and the Another thing that people might not know if you're you know if you're a younger person is that these games, these events and Kenna Williams actually said it at this event, where adventure games at the time were the AAA games of the time.
00:21:46
Speaker
um They were sort of the most produced, they had the but art, music, everything like that. um They were like the big hitters in the industry. and's It's kind of interesting to see how that's changed and where now it's become more of an indie type of um operation. just because of i guess like it's it's It's become more of a niche, I think, because other kinds of games have expanded to fill in for all those other types of interests. yeah mass mass appeal and all that. I think like it's a sad thing to see that narrative games do sell. They sell really well and they get really big communities. But unfortunately, like the AAA does move towards you know having multiplayer spaces because that's how they can drive a lot of fear missing out and getting more... you know is the The industry's just moved in that direction, but I'm happy that
00:22:35
Speaker
The industry is also in a space where um wonderful indies like yourself can make these games for a, and I'm doing this big quotation marks, niche audience, um because there's a hungry audience for this and they want it.
Indie Game Development
00:22:50
Speaker
right And it's it's just beautiful that we have the kind of structure in our industry where people can you know support you and um devs like you to make these experiences that are tailored to to those types of players. It's wonderful. Yeah, I feel really fortunate. I i was mentioning earlier, Jamie, before you got in that I'm so fortunate that the tools that are available now are make it so that just about anyone can make an adventure game just by yourself or with a small team. And that certainly wasn't the case back in the day. And I love the fact that I can make something that yeah, I kind of can look and play kind of like a Sierra game, but I just did it by myself um as well. The fact that
00:23:25
Speaker
Probably, you know if I was trying to trying to get this made at a larger scale, it wouldn't happen because of all the limitations that that a text parser adventure game has where you can't really put this on console because it needs a keyboard. You need a keyboard to type. yeah This game has 160,000 words of writing, like text text and dialogue description. um so That's going to be expensive to localize. and if you Even if you do localize it, you've got to implement it with a text parser. And all of these reasons are why companies wouldn't do this, but I get to because I don't have to ask for permission. is It's interesting to go into the specifics of like the ra the restrictions and um the difficulties of the development of that specific genre and why that would ward um you know publishers away from such a project. ah That's really fascinating because that's not something I actually considered, but it makes complete sense when you put it like that. It makes complete sense.
00:24:20
Speaker
So I'm making it because I love it. You know, that's where it all started is just a thing. And I know that, yeah, it hasn't been seen in a while this style. um yeah You know, at this maybe at this type of polish or something, in which case people are getting the people who are excited, but it are really excited about it, which is really nice to see. Yeah. this is This is the ideal for me. like Seeing people passionate about a project and having through the systems we have and and the communities they they foster, they just get to make the fucking cool art and like thing they want to do. And that is a successful.
00:24:57
Speaker
You know, um like that that is what i why I'm in the games industry. um As an indie, I i am attempting to to do that myself with my own games. Do you feel like that that still exists in double and triple A? Tina and Mikey? Like that kind of, let's just create this cool thing. Or does does the higher you go up, does it become more of a product in a way?
00:25:21
Speaker
Well, I feel like on the AA space, it it's definitely there. Like people in AA are passionate. They still have the indie fire and the indie hunger. They just have a little more money. And that's good because then you could take the money and then you can you know turn the fire turn the hunger into a cool product that looks really good that has all these extra features that fulfills your vision or whatever yeah but of course having more money just includes all the risks having more money right spending it responsibly ah but putting it toward the correct design of the thing that the players are going to enjoy this is what they want to enjoy so yeah in double a for sure i don't
00:26:01
Speaker
Like ah in my experience, I can't think of many people or teams where I had the sense that like, oh, they're just trying to put out a ah product. I perceive that that happens more often in AAA, but but I wouldn't know. as my I guess I had a stint in AAA, but it was ah it was its own its own thing. So Tina, what what about you? I think it's there's less opportunity for that in AAA, because most of the time when you work on a AAA game, the IP is already established. There's already set expectations about what the features are, so it's hard to sort of be creative outside of that set of things that you have to deliver, right? And I do think it's there. it's just um
00:26:45
Speaker
It's rare because in my opinion because ah the more money the bigger the team is the more. ah Not more, the less ah expectation there is out of the dev. And what I mean by that is your job becomes very niche. Like you have one thing that you're responsible for too, right? um So having a developer that can do code and design or art and, you know, narrative, that kind of goes away on the AAA level.
00:27:18
Speaker
because there's just so many people that are responsible for their one path or thing to do. Um, uh, I can, you know, so there, there are people that break that mold and are outside of that box and, um, but it's, it's, it's a little, I wouldn't go into triple A thinking that you're going to find that for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I so yeah so and gar today's fine oh i was to say that you know you kind of have to do that one thing. That's the great thing about solo dev. It's kind of a double-edged sword because you get to do everything. You get to make all the decisions, but then you have to do everything and you have to make all the decisions.
00:27:57
Speaker
But on on the whole, I would say that it's it's great because I don't have to justify my design decisions. If I wanted to put something in that's silly that really doesn't add to the actual critical path or anything like that, I get to do that. um But on the you know also on the flip side is that you can kind of the development time can just drag because you don't have a producer you know you're telling you what to do in discussion. But it does give, it did give me the opportunity to fill the game with all these little things that as an adventure game setting is so important. It it helps enhance that setting. And it's wonderful not to have to justify my decisions. um And then also you can also, it's very important to also get feedback though, of course, from friends. yeah
00:28:37
Speaker
It's one of the things I say in indie. It's like, oh, I've got this really great idea. And it's, oh, no, I've got this really great idea. And I have to make it. I have to do the thing now. It's not just this, oh, I've got a great idea for a system. I'll hand it off. um it's Oh, no, we've we've got to make that now. um And like ah hats off to you, julia i I am in no way shape or form a solo dev. um I could not do what you do.
Compelling Storytelling in Games
00:29:01
Speaker
I work with it's it's a small team, but ah we will have our even though I do level, you know, level design, sound design, game design, stuff like that. Programming, I think I'd end up like ending my life with the keyboard um by accident, just like by typing wrong.
00:29:20
Speaker
I didn't know. The Dyslexic J braced your fingers into your skull. yeah like but and You said something there, Julia, which I i want to segue off of because I had a question for you. um Because you're so entrenched in the the adventure game space and um have been for so long, I'm wondering what things you have learned from either um past projects you've worked on or games you played when you were younger, like what makes the adventure game genre tick, in your opinion? Ooh, let's see. I would probably say it's the writing. i And it's always kind of come down to the writing. Even before these games had graphics, they were writing first. And the story and characters in the setting, whether it's just done by text or also with the aid of graphics, that's kind of where it is for me. And that's what fascinates me about it. I'm an artist first, which is why I'm kind of surprised myself that I just answered it that way.
00:30:17
Speaker
At the same time, I i've always felt like the kind of games that I like and the kind of game that I'm making is more like like a book than a movie, where you're taking this again at your own pace and the game will stop for you and be patient with you. And you don't have to worry about missing anything or jumping on things or you know that kind of thing. that That's kind of where where I start with it. um And the game the games, i I kind of lost my track on my train of thought. I'm sorry, i so i um I was telling these guys earlier is that it it was my second sunrise I saw by just working through the night. But please, can you just rephrase the question?
00:30:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine. um So it was basically with adventure games. You were saying how you know you feel like writing is the main driving force, um but you're an artist first. do you but This is kind of just jumping into a different question, really. Do you find that having the writing and writing the story kind of informs how you then produce the art? what Does the art in your mind kind of evolve based on the also the story that you're creating at the same time? The art really really evolved based on the research I did. which was so When I was first starting this part project, I was just making these pixelate rooms, but you have to fill them with furniture, but what area is this furniture? it's It's very low resolution and low color palette, but you need reference before you you know you want i want want to draw something. because
00:31:38
Speaker
I want some kind of feeling of authenticity and that's kind of the research and the other people's writing kind of informed what the art was going to look like and also informed what the story was going to be because I'm saying to myself, okay, well, I want it to be like in the 1914s era. So who's living here? Why are they here? What's happened before and after this this period? um But yeah, so it's kind of a weirdly backwards project for me because it did start. Well, it started from art first and then I used the research to evolve the actual story and the and the rest of the game. When I played, that was one of the things that really stuck out to me was there was a clear commitment to the setting, which was like, in a literal sense, a unique setting. I don't think I've ever experienced before. Early 20th century ah Canada.
00:32:22
Speaker
I forgot the name of the the city you were outside of, but in the forests, in the in the in the boonies of Canada. I thought that was pretty cool, especially if somebody used to live in Calgary for a little bit and like got out to sea. I think this was Eastern Canada, right? In the Crimson Diamond, if I remember. yeah yeah But seeing the Canadian and wilderness that I saw, at least in Alberta, was pretty cool. yeah ku Well, first, congratulations. and i live even in cal but also calary i'm joking It's fine. oh No, it's okay. I heard that joke a lot when I was there. Okay.
00:32:58
Speaker
ah Yeah, the setting was super important to me and I actually had to tell myself at a certain stage to stop doing research because it was just so interesting to me and it was bringing up so many ideas for characters and stories um and puzzles even that I was like, okay, I got to stop at this point. I got to focus on the rest of it because there's just it's endless. It's endless what you can find. And um I feel like the story really did benefit from from me loving to do that research so much.
Challenges in Solo Development
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I want to ask another question, Julie, to to digress a little bit. As a solo dev, as you said, you you have the benefit of I could do whatever the hell I want. Haha. But also I have to do all the things I want. Oh no. If you could choose, like, if you could imagine in your head, like make up one person or one role to help you and that you could delegate to and say, like, could you do this, please? It's me. I'm helping you. I've come to work with you. You're my boss. oh You can give me any job.
00:33:51
Speaker
Oh, Jamie. I'm so sorry. I knew instantly what this answer was going to be. And I'm so sorry, Jamie. You're going to be the one dealing with the steam back end. Oh, fuck. yeah i don't The most fun part of game development. and Honestly. Okay. I mean, like setting up the achievements or whatever. Just everything. Like setting up your store page, getting you library assets. You probably have never had to deal with this. And I'm so jealous. Like setting up a Steam page? The Steam backend, the whole backend, so everything to do with it. I've uploaded builds and stuff. Oh, okay, you have. Okay, maybe you could help me too. Maybe you could forget Jamie. Let Tina, please help me. Yeah, I found that, Tina. You guys can do it. I did build and release, which was earlier, I think, for a producer, but I must be like on the spectrum because i I fucking love build and release.
00:34:40
Speaker
um but I love managing per force. I love all of that. I don't know why. i yeah yeah I couldn't I could not help you with that answer. But yeah, it's a really challenging to especially, especially as a person who's an artist first, I had to teach myself the coding part of this idea of but I've had people like software engineers, I have a software engineer game to a friend of mine who said, he gets sister stymied by the back end is as I do. And so I feel really And this past week, I was trying to get like um like my playtester keys, and the Steam support said, why don't you use the autogrant packages? And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I don't have time to to to figure out all this stuff. Because i started he sent me a link, and then so I looked at the link, and that just raised more questions. and I actually wrote this in the support ticket. This just raises more questions. Please, I just basically begged for these dev comp keys, because i'm like I just need the key. keys so they could test. I don't want to learn all. And it was really, so Zach and Andrew, I don't know if you're, you know, you're probably not watching, but I'm just going to say thank you so much for, for giving me those dev comp keys. Cause I, I just, oh my gosh, it would not be my testers. I've got two weeks left before launch and those testers needed those keys for this weekend. So thank you so much. Everybody please pour one out at your desks, not on your computer for Zach and Andrew. yeah The real ones. The real ones.
Creativity within Limitations
00:35:52
Speaker
on it I actually have liquid in it. Fuck.
00:35:54
Speaker
um Yeah, I've got liquid too, Beauj. I had a question. I think... One of the best things about learning dev, and this kind of goes for anyone um'm in chat, if you're thinking about getting into game dev, I highly recommend it as well as not recommending it at the same time, um but definitely do it. Because sometimes we have, mainly because the industry is on fire currently, um but actually learning what to do and like getting into this art form, 100% do it. And I think your own limitations
00:36:31
Speaker
in capability. So for me, my dyslexia and my programming and stuff like that, never view that as something that's going to stop you. View it as something that's going to um allow you to reach new possibilities because of those restrictions. And I think Julia is kind of exploring this in the sense because you're exploring a genre that has baked in limitations in the art style and stuff like that. Have you found that while in development, that the restrictions you've put on yourself have actually led to like interesting like challenges.
00:37:03
Speaker
i love I love restrictions. i love I love not having a lot of decisions to make because you know that's that analysis paralysis thing where ah you know you have 200 choices, I don't know what to do. But yes, this idea of limitation making you me more creative absolutely absolutely helped me 100%. Also from a ah practical standpoint, it just means you take less less time on your assets, which is kind of really nice. um But yeah great yeah, it's a great help. And it's it's been when I started Pixlr, I started this project because I was teaching myself Pixlr. And I didn't you know know where to start until I started looking at the screenshots from those old games. And that that gave me a baked-in set of limitations where, OK, 320 by 200 pixels, these this particular palette of colors go. And that was a really good starting point for something like that. And I will also say to any of the people who want to make games, those limitations that self-impose or otherwise, those those are what's going to make your thing unique and different. i always I always encourage indie game devs who say, well, i you know a lot of people, more indie game devs tend to be coders first, and then you know they're not artists, and they kind of feel like that's a huge stumbling block. But I would say that if you're doing something that's super low res, not even 16 college, but maybe even a more limited palette,
00:38:15
Speaker
you don't have to be realistic. And I think a lot of people get tripped up when they think about art, they think it needs to be realistic. And it doesn't, especially not with games, it doesn't have to be, it just needs to convey, you know, where you can walk and, you know, how many lives you have, if it's that kind of game, and you know, who, what's an object and what's a person, um that type of thing is what's important. And that can all be done really simply.
Shifting Focus in Games
00:38:34
Speaker
And I would so encourage people to get started that way, because not only can you learn as you do it, but it's going to be more unique than, you know, if, if you just get some pre-made assets, which is also a totally valid thing to do. I just love that personal expression. I just latched onto to something you said that I don't think many of us have expressed out loud. When we were growing up and the console wars were happening, you know like the Jaguars, the Xbox 360s, it was always a graphics
00:39:05
Speaker
comparison. We're always chasing better graphics. And gamers nowadays, like the super young players, don't even have to think about that anymore. At least I don't think that's part of the marketing behind a lot of games these days. like that That all went out the window. And yeah, we're sorry. Go ahead. It's interesting, right? ah one I was going to say, remember crisis when it was like, check out good, this game looks like that was a big part of the marketing thing, right? That was it. exact thing Look how good this look can it run crisis and like all all that are cute. Remember opening up the magazines and seeing stuff like the edgy early 2000s ish marketing. It doesn't matter anymore.
00:39:49
Speaker
it really sounds like It's like it's that most games look pretty good and it doesn't take like a huge effort to do that. the The general average graphic fidelity of games has increased so much, right? Is that why people are less motivated by it? Or is it because, you know, as, as a collective, the, not the industry, but the audience is maturing into the sense of most people in my teens, if you asked people, what's the most important part of the game? Teen is completely right. They'll say the graphics.
00:40:23
Speaker
Nowadays, um I know a few people um like who are coming into their teens and they talk to me about game dev because it's what I do. And I asked them, what's the most important thing about games? And they go, gameplay. And they they don't necessarily know what they're they mean by that, right? Like yeah exactly the specific thing they're talking about. But they mean the game is the important part, not you know how it looks, which is really nice to see. It's just how do you pinpoint that shift? What happened? Who broke the cut? I think the i think ah there is a high volume of games that started coming out because development got easier and digital distribution revolutionized everything. I think that was a big thing. The end is getting better and digital distribution, I think, are the two big factors. And that meant there were lots more games. Yeah. Minecraft.
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah, not exactly an awesome graphical game, but here's here's the thing.
Nostalgia and Future Influences
00:41:14
Speaker
and Low graphics, low fidelity stuff became a style, right? And there were enough games that looked really good. ill rest blow likey like google guns arcade yeah or even using JavaScript to make a game. I was like, God damn, you know, it's good for you. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It could also be ah partly when we talk about our childhood games infecting us. It could be that the game developers who grew up with that, you know, the certain kind of art there. There are now at that nostalgia. Yeah, exactly. They can make their own thing and they what what what do they want? They want the stuff that that's exactly what drove me to do what I did is this idea.
00:41:53
Speaker
I want to make a thing that was like the things I liked and that was seeing a lot of that and I love that. When, when are we going to see the, like in 2035, are we going to get like the flappy birds? Um, nostalgia wave where like loads of tiny children who played iOS games come out and just, we get like a droves of flappy bird clones. Wait, wait, wait, how old is flappy bird? Cause I feel like that was just yesterday. A long, a long time ago. It was like, don't tell me that I'm going to make it out.
00:42:23
Speaker
ti Tina Brace. I'm looking up Brace, Tina. I went down on your wallet. 11 years ago. 11 years ago. 11 years ago. Oh my God. That's a little longer than I thought. I would have guessed six years, I think. But no, 11 makes sense. A child of the Fluffy Birds era. Nine years from now then, 20 years. I think maybe it's the turnaround we're going to... get into the golden age of flappy bird clones. It's called the age of flappy bird. clothes Right now, I'm now around to get to that place. Those guys can have the flappy birds era. I'll, as soon as I make my fucked up beyond good and evil clone one day, uh, I'll, I'll retire. I don't want to be part of the flappy birds. Oh my God. That's crazy. Dealing with this information.
00:43:21
Speaker
like i still need a yeah my god um I'm trying to bring it back to infected. ah um what's what's the game there but Let's talk more about games that imprinted on us.
Hosts' Gaming Experiences
00:43:32
Speaker
How about that? my ah Mine was definitely Half-Life 1, full on. and And another thing that I think helped with the imprint, which is something I wanted to bring up as well. ah I don't have a very good computer so I had to end like Julia said you only have so much you only have so many gift credits with your parents. ah today If you're lucky enough to like have parents that can afford to buy you games of course and that was my situation so I had half life one.
00:44:01
Speaker
And i was like what am i gonna do with this i don't have a great computer either oh what were these things called mods so i got really into mods and i could just play as much as i wanted of this game that i learned and figured out how to play and i have all this content and access to that that whole thing led to like a deeper imprint those those limitations i guess i had as a kid. but Honestly, that's that's the reason why I kind of fell out of playing games was when everything started getting into 3d and you needed ah like a beefier computer to run these things and I didn't have that and You know, even if I tried to run something with 3d graphics it'd be you know Chug and it would just you know It wouldn't run well, even if and even still aesthetically I preferred the pixel art in the first place So I kind of at there was a point where I wasn't really playing games anymore because of that idea about graphics graphics graphics It was a whole the whole emphasis and I love the fact that
00:44:51
Speaker
My little tiny game is like less than 250 megabytes when you install it onto your hard drive. It's just this little thing and it's just it's very lightweight. You don't need anything special to play it. I think it plays on like a Windows 2000 machine maybe. um Almost anyone can play it. it's it's just it's just It's not going to make any demands of you. It's not going to make you buy the new you know card. I don't even know what what's happens nowadays in games, but whatever those cards are that make you run better graphics, like you don't you don't need anything like that. and I do love the fact that that means more people can play it. hundred percent
00:45:22
Speaker
It's interesting to think about how the graphical race for you turned you off from playing games because it's, um you know, because of its systems and stuff like that. It's fascinating. thing I hope that now that we're hopefully moving away from that and we're slowly inching our ways towards the Flappy Birds era. I hope that more games are made. yeah now i'm drinking i'll spit write that e I just wanted to say, Julia, I do relate to you in loving playing a game now where it waits for you to take an action before it progresses because I'm in my mom era. So I can't sit down and play a 56 hour game anymore. um i'm I need a game that allows me to um you know shut it off on a whim because my kid took off her diaper and is running around.
00:46:13
Speaker
from which Which does happen. um ah there There is a couple ah there's a studio I think you might be interested in playing their games and just checking them out. um They're called Boss Fight Entertainment. yeah um They work for Netflix. I only know about this because I interviewed with Netflix because they're they're trying to get into the game space. um But they do a lot of mobile narrative games. And I think that that style could be something that you do in the future because it seems like that's just like a ripe opportunity. And I i don't. Yeah, I think you should check out one of their games.
00:46:54
Speaker
Yeah, I totally wrote totally wrote it down. We'll check it out. um Speaking of playing it on mobile, there is something called SCUMVM, which a lot of um like adventure gamers use to play their older games and newer machines. And SCUMVM now has an iOS app, and you can play the Crimson Diamond. If you have your SCUMVM app, you can like load it up into SCUMVM. Really? And actually, like the on-screen keyboard pops up and everything. It actually works surprisingly well out of the box with absolutely no... one you know Fiddling with me i'm doing anything. Yeah, I think that's something I do want to take a look at. And so it does work that way as well. um Right on. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Eric put it up on the screen. Yeah. Look at that. There's one of ah Tim Schaeffer's games. Yeah. did And let me ask this while we have this up. ah How many like for Tina and Jay, did you guys play venture games at any point in your gaming careers? And if so, which ones?
00:47:42
Speaker
Unfortunately, not really, because, um, like Julia was saying, I think our, I mean, when I was younger too, my, my game experience was impacted and influenced by my parents. So my dad, as it happened towards any of those games, unfortunately, um, which, you know, I do wonder what kind of where I'd be right now, if that playing video games was an experience where you explored it on your own as a child. um You know, um because ah it's really unfortunate. I think that I would have loved playing my King's Quest and stuff. I just haven't.
00:48:21
Speaker
Yeah, maybe you'd be less fucking mental Tina. Have you stopped playing all those? like crazy islandling Yeah, you know man my, my, my, yeah, my humor would have matured past like junior high, I think probably. Yeah. Well, eventually it's have a lot of puns in them. So I don't know if we can hold out hope.
Adventure Game Recommendations
00:48:41
Speaker
It's a different yeah different kind flavor. I mentioned that games that wait and that appeal and not only is it good for like people are busy and people you know like moms who need that ability to interrupt what they're doing but also like twitch streamers also love the ability to yeah to just pause something or just step away or like address their chat and things like that um and sometimes adventure games or have like their dialogue boxes on timers which means that you're not really controlling their advancement
00:49:09
Speaker
I was just about to say that, like yeah being able to have dialog boxes stay, yeah ah especially as someone who um has dyslexia and struggles to read at speed, um it's like unbelievably useful. You'd hear a lot of designers saying, well, it's an opportunity cost, um like an interaction cost to press A or to press space to move forward and people don't want to do that. And it's like, give them the option. It's it's effectively ah an accessibility feature. Uh, and I'm, I'm all for that. All for it. What I'm hearing is that Tina needs to get into Europe. I want to be my adventure game era now. Cause that's like, you know, it's for me. What are some of your top recommendations in Julia? Like what, what should Tina be playing?
00:49:50
Speaker
Oh, that's a really good question. Other than Crimson Diamond, of course. yeah the finishing When it comes out, yeah. That's a really good question. That's number one. Yeah, of course that's number one. But yeah, the thing is, it's kind of tough to recommend wholeheartedly a lot of the super old ones, the ones that we kind of grew up with, because they can be a little bit harder to play. But yeah, there are a bunch of new ones um the but well coming out as well. but um currently Currently released, I would say something like francis' frans Francisco Gonzalez made Lamplight City, which is available, and so if you like mystery as well. That one's a really nice one, also made in the Adventure Game Studio engine. um Kathy Rain is another ah one that started in Adventure Game Studio, and then they ported it to some... and I don't know what else they ported it to, but that's another really good one, like a traditional point-and-click adventure game that's kind of had modernization, I believe. um
00:50:35
Speaker
And what else can I recommend? That's a really good question. I'll have to get back to you. I have one I want to throw out there. But I want to ask Julia first, because you know about it. I have a little bit of experience with adventure games. I'd watch one of my friends play a bunch of the old ones, like we did like the Westwood ones, Legend of Karandia 1 through 3, a deck 13 one called Jack Keene, and so like one of the the sillier ones. But the other one that we played a little bit of was a Broken Sword. That, to me, feels like an accessible one. But what do you think, Julia? That series? You know what? I haven't played. I have not played Broken Sword games, I'm afraid to say. OK, that's all right. I know. That's scandal. I know. What a scandal. I have not played them all. That's the thing is like usually when you meet adventure game fans, like they know so much more about it. Even though I consider myself an adventure game fan, ive i people have played so much more than me. But Tina, I want to say Paradigm by Jacob Jenerica is a really, really good one, too. OK, Paradigm. on that one Yeah. Cool.
00:51:31
Speaker
Actually, the press is gonna have a field day about this. They never played Broken Sword. I know. You know, and Charles Sussle was at the event I believe that I was at. I was like, I can't even meet this guy. I never played this game. What am I supposed to say? but i did say yeah feel so ah Beneath the Steel Sky, I did play that one. so okay I've been in that boat too, Julia. I introduced myself to Tim Shafer and I did not play any of his games up until that point. It was one of the first times you met him, right? What was that? It was one of the first times you met him. Yeah, yeah not not like our last podcast. I'd be shocked if you hadn't played any of his games. I've definitely played since then.
00:52:13
Speaker
yeah No, they're those are pretty cool about that stuff. Yeah, no, because we all get it. Right. Like we don't know how how ah arrogant would it be to respond to a president be like you didn't play my video game? To be fair, I feel like the only person that may get away with that if they were like that would probably be Kojima. Like if you meet Kojima and you've never even dabbled in any of his games, I think that'd be a little strange. It's a challenge for him. He's like, yeah right. How can I break your mind? Like, yeah how can I influence you to just like delve in? Right. That's a, that's an open book. if If you've got, if you make weird ass content and they go, um yeah, I've never heard of you, you're like, yeah, come sit with me. I'll i'll tell you, I'll tell you some stories. yeah Oh man.
00:53:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think of in the sense of adventure games for me, it's always been a genre that I've really enjoyed, but not one that I've fully dabbled in. And I'm trying to think of, I played a lot in my teens because I was going through that. I want to play the games that I couldn't play as a kid kind of phase, but like, including Broken Sword and, you know, ah muarlins and stuff. But nowadays, some of the games have been coming out. And i as a designer, we find that as we get into the industry, we have less and less time to actually play.
Re-engaging with Games
00:53:45
Speaker
um And because my job involves playing games, sometimes I don't get to the the games I actually want to play. I've got to do the ones that I'm doing for work or or whatnot. um
00:53:54
Speaker
And adventure games are that because as a designer, when I look at an adventure game and point and click adventure games, I'm like, holy shit. Like I respect how they're made so much um with the restrictions, with um how you ah teach players and you navigate them through the puzzles. Like it's such a. adjoining of so many mediums that I respect but I just never have the time to fully sit down and um like delve in and i'm I'm one of these people that I don't know if you guys are similar if I have to come away from if I'm really engrossed in a story and I have to come away from it because I was so engrossed it makes me not want to go back because I'm like I've come away from it and
00:54:35
Speaker
The emotion was so strong that it keeps me that seems weird to say but like keeps me away from it So when I have something that I really want to play I tend to be like I need to have time to play this I want to set aside time to fully play this, you know, I think I get that but only if if there's a big gap Like if I get engrossed and then I stop and I do something else and I come back fairly soon after, I still remember everything. I still know what's going on and I'm still engrossed and I can jump back into that that that mood, that atmosphere, that feeling. But if I wait a long time and then I come back, I'm like, oh, I forget everything that was happening. I want to read up on it and I have to read carefully and not spoil anything. So that's my association with what you're describing.
00:55:17
Speaker
And getting reminders, I saw this awesome accessibility feature. Somebody posted it on Twitter. i'm Sorry that I don't know your Twitter handle person who posted this. um But it was like, oh, ah games should start having an accessibility feature, which is like, I'm a parent, which is a the game knows that you've not played it for a week. And when you load in, it instantly gives you a recap of where you are, what you were doing, and what you're meant to do. um just as like a pop-up and then you go. Because that would help so much. So much. I kind of think a lot more people get into it. I don't have any time or anything, but I do have a notebook in my game, which is something I stole from Thimbleweed Park, where it just tracks all your objectives and it tells you, speaking of wait games that wait, um the objective that will progress the game is going to be like surrounded by asterisks.
Impactful Game Designs
00:56:04
Speaker
So you're welcome to explore and ask people questions, do anything you want, except for that thing. And when you think you're ready to progress, you do that thing and then you move on to the next stage.
00:56:12
Speaker
um That's so nice. Yeah, it's it's always in in big like we we were speaking about earlier about like what games um kind of inspired us for me. We'll be younger than we will be in the big one. Another one was Red Dead Redemption. And um there was a huge game for me when I when I was younger and. Absolutely loved it and the narrative and how it drove you through the world um and also just like as an educational piece as a dumbass British man who doesn't know much about the West. Um, it was very educational and it also changed how I viewed multiplayer. It was the first weirdly enough, the multiplayer of red dead was the first time I fully got engrossed in like multiplayer and, um, like a community and stuff like that. So it introduced me to a lot of stuff, but, um, one of the things I didn't like in that.
00:57:03
Speaker
Um, was sometimes because I was dumb, I would think that the people I was talking to in the side quests I was doing were progressing the story. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to do the side stuff. Um, and I, it would make me not want to do the things I wanted to do, if that makes sense. And having an actual clear marker of like, this is side content, this is main quest, stuff like that, um that really, really helps. And it's such a small thing. like And it's those little tiny user experience features that can really make or break um a game for some people. So it's really nice to hear that you you've got that going on.
00:57:44
Speaker
Yeah, this idea of um you know the stuff that imprinted on us in childhood and how it's kind of affected what we do now is that this is totally it. where ah so Sometimes I think, oh, I'm so fortunate that the only kind of game that I'm kind of interested in making at least now is adventure games. But I guess it's not a coincidence because that's that is what I fell in love with and you know with computer games. But yeah, this idea that There are things that these games would do like, yeah, I would progress the game, the Colonel's bequest, you would walk into a room and time would progress and you would feel like you'd have to be like a groundhog groundhog, a situation where you'd be like, I can't go into this room because I don't want to progress that, you know, and you might accidentally go in there, you might, you know, see something. And I didn't like that. aspect I love that game, but I don't like that aspect. And this was my chance to look at the things that I wished were in these games or the way that I would want it to be and then do do that.
00:58:30
Speaker
That's exactly what I was discussing in my latest video, which is like how education works um with imitation. So imitating what we love, which is you know what we all start with doing, get imprinted, imitate what the the pros did back in the day, assimilate, which is understanding ah why they did the things they did. And then innovate, you take it and you go, I wish it did this. I think it should be like this and instead. And we should improve it. And that's exactly what you're doing. You're you're like the poster child for that with, um, with your game. crystal diamond So, um, yeah, I think it's just fascinating. I literally cannot get enough of just solo dev. Like you're like gods to me. It's, it's insane. I bow down since they are making their own worlds. I suppose. right Oh my God.
00:59:18
Speaker
It's come full circle.
Game Jam and Concert Mystery Idea
00:59:21
Speaker
What time is it? ah self pi Yeah. We have a one comment that you need to read, but also if we wanted to dabble in, um, the amnesia Fortnite inspired, uh, game jam improv, I have a screenshot. Okay. Yes. Yes. Sorry. i be half that I've had so little sleep. I completely forgot. So people who don't remember, um, which apparently is me. Last episode with Tim Schafer, we did ah Tina come up with a really, really cool kind of game where Tina would bring an image and then collectively as a team um with our wonderful guests, we would kind of improv a game pitch from that ah image and kind of, you know, come up with something cool. And um have you brought an image today, Tina? I did. Eric has it.
01:00:15
Speaker
Oh, I got to stretch first. Hold on. I got to stretch. Yeah. Go stretch my brain. I've had no sleep. We're good. So your name is Becca. And you're an audience member at a Taylor Swift concert. And we're making an adventure game slash potential murder mystery, if you want. Oh, I do want I do want someone's got to die. Yeah. Not necessarily Taylor, but someone. Yeah. Maybe a backup dancer. Maybe someone the duration of the game takes place while she's performing. oh Yeah.
01:01:00
Speaker
Maybe you have, it's a timer. You only have her entire set to complete the mystery. So you hear the songs going. no this get No, I take this back because we were just talking about how we don't like games that rush us. And if I'm like, there's a timer and you have to listen to the music in real time, I take it all back. I think it'll hold on. We don't have to do that. Hold on. Let's back up a little bit. We can have ah a sense of time without a timer. Let's say you can have a situation where the player is going to, uh, you clearly telegraph a notebook, perhaps, uh, inspired by one of my favorite games, Crimson diamond.
01:01:34
Speaker
where it says, okay, when you do this, that's going to progress to the next song or we imply it's what's going to happen. I like the idea that because of the timing, you can access certain parts of the concert, but you can't get to other parts. So like when she's performing, you can't get ah backstage because the staff's there. But during an intermission, maybe you can. And that's the only time you could talk to to Taylor. If you guys play Disco Elysium, there's a lot of like timing focus yeah stuff. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah And but you could do the stage and everything, you know, I also like the idea of having each when there's the song, you can kind of hear it muted playing in the background. It might also affect like the tone of what the game is like. So if it's like a happy song, then it's going to be a certain way. If it's going to be a super dramatic song, maybe certain things happen during those times or people behave in certain ways based around how what the music sounds like.
01:02:22
Speaker
Yeah. like brilliant how how yeah yeah good is a very quick bit Do you know how people like sometimes listen to albums and will like write stories or um there's some really interesting comic books. I have one. I need to dig it up. There's comic books that come with soundtracks that you ah go online and listen to while you're reading. So each page has its own song. And it really sets the tone of like what you're reading. And we're kind of, we could do that for the game where it's effectively like you can adjust, well, this is just music in general. You can adjust the tone of how the player should be feeling and perceiving the environment based on what song Taylor Swift is on. ah It depends. I'm not a big Swifty. Sorry. Um, is one of the main emotions we want them to feel is like jealousy about our next lover.
01:03:11
Speaker
Jealousy. I don't know the jealousy. You do bring up a good point. So in our game, we're definitely not going to get the intellectual property rights to use Taylor Swift's likeness or music. So her name will be Taylor miffed. And she's super busy. I'm done. Yeah, no, um, is it evil bizarro version of Taylor Swift. Yeah. taylor mill Okay. think what Lean towards, uh, yeah. Breakups. I think you're right in that sense. We have it. We got to explore the biggest thing. What's who got murdered? Like what's the mystery? Hey, uh, it wasn't power more on the era's tour recently with Taylor Swift. Maybe Haley Williams got killed. I mean, I'm sure there's going to be some endorsements here.
01:04:02
Speaker
Oh my God. That'd be kind of cool. It's, uh, Jaylee Billiams. And they've got instead of orange house, uh, It's just brunette. It's lastly very different well totally different person. It does sound a lot like that, uh, that movie. Oh, we sell a little murder. for That's the question. No, no, we don't have to. Julia on this one. How do you make a concert scenario feel like compelling enough to want to like drive you through
01:04:38
Speaker
I think murders it's a nice way to spice things up. It gets people's attention. so out of context julia was number one for the media yeah i I think i think that's ah it's a nice one, but and there's so many reasons why I mean, you know, there's all kinds of rivalries and people wanted to get on stage, or you know, conflicts and that that go between, you know, in a touring band and stuff like not to say like this ever happens, but like my yeah, my musician, Dan Pollakart, he's in the backing band for Sean Paul, and he's been there for like 13 years. And it's almost like a family where they've been traveling together for that long, which means that, you know, there's all I mean, they're getting leggged along great, but maybe they're sometimes where they don't write in a story.
01:05:14
Speaker
and so said to us and straight of ah Instead of a straight up murder at a concert, what if they did so what if you're just a fan trying to stop the sabotage of the show? So you're Okay. So you're solving mysteries, right? Yes. You're in the front row and as you're watching and you're looking up, we've got like a low angle perspective and you see someone tampering with, uh, something in the rough. There's lights and stuff in silhouette. Um, and you being there, like I'm the best. Um, what do we call them? Jayla myth.
01:05:52
Speaker
um she was jailb I'm the biggest fan in the world. I've got to save this concert. But then as you go, it starts kind of lighthearted, but then it gets deeper and you get into the the motives and the relationships between the, you know, the the cast members and also like the back, the backup c crew drum techs. Oh my God. Somebody in the chat brought up something that I would like to at least be an element here. They said Ocean's Eleven at a Taylor Swift concert. Maybe there's some really expensive kind of jewelry that that one of the backup dancers or jailer, Miffed herself has. And there's like a third party going along. Maybe you think they're the one trying to sabotage the concert when they're actually trying to get the concert to start because they're just trying to pull off the perfect heist and steal valuables.
01:06:40
Speaker
I think a heist is, yeah, that can be compelling too. I love a heist. I love a heist. I love the idea that like sailor whiffed or whatever her name is. We just keep changing it when we say it. Every time they reference her name, it's always different. Her thing is like on this tour, jewels tour or something, and she's going to be wearing like certain amazing exotic jewels for a particular song or the finale or something. You have to make sure that it doesn't get stolen or any, you know, there's so many ways we could go with this. That's cool. Yeah. And I like, I liked the idea that maybe there's multiple things in play and multiple parties in play. I think that could ah deepen it. I guess like any good mystery, right? So are we doing point and click? How are we going to explore this in honor of Julie? Yeah. It's point and click. It's pointing click. Okay. Cool. love it Um, what are overarching Lee? What are some of the
01:07:31
Speaker
puzzle mysteries that we're going to have to solve inside the context of this concert and backstage. What are some of the things that the player is going to have to discover and then figure out?
Creating an Engaging Mystery Experience
01:07:40
Speaker
Something about a light falling I feel like has to be there that feels like a concert problem to have a light falling at a critical time But the needing to fix prevent someone's rig delight to fall Whether it's the heister is trying to get people to move out of the room where the jewels are or the murderer. He's trying to kill ah the Mr. Jift miss Jift, excuse me ah just change your name Every single time
01:08:05
Speaker
Yeah. and And you have to, um, uh, your, your goal, like the, the puzzle is I have to get up to that light and fix it without anybody noticing. Yeah. I've, I've got one, uh, that is a stage hand or a backup dancer. Um, whispering and talking to someone in a very erratic way. And every time you approach them, they do the classic, you know, brushed shoulder, um, hushing, like get away from me. You're not listening to what I'm saying. And you have to figure out how to eavesdrop. Um, and how you do it is by going to the, uh, microphone monitoring station and swapping the, the pins so you can listen to what they're saying. that is a classic I like theyre like that.
01:08:50
Speaker
And you have to get like, I don't know. say one good idea I'm fucking done now. Like, um, that was it. Let's, let's follow your good idea. How do we get the tech away from the panel? Gun. god you just That's the ultimate, the adventure game problem solver is just whipping out the fucking cut. That's really the puzzle item you need in your inventory to solve every puzzle. The entire game is just you. You are a fan that has brought a Glock with you, but if you don't use it, you don't use it.
01:09:28
Speaker
For any reason, you get a special ending, which is literally just at the end. It says, um, black, black background, white text. Congratulations. Um, no gun, youurd thank you There's a, there's a pacifist run, a deus ex one style, non-lethal run of the game. I love it. not because you don't kill anybody necessary This is a it is my career in a nutshell. There is a Mission Impossible Nintendo 64 game where you do a puzzle kind of like this. You find a gun that has no bullets and you of course use it to to do the only thing you could do is to go threaten somebody and then they do something even though there were no bullets. I was just thinking the whole narrative wise to make it make sense. I think that it would be interesting to have your ticket with you, right? So you show the ticket.
01:10:18
Speaker
16-bit art glory. But then someone else has the exact same ticket. And so that kicks you off on the adventure. You're like, Tom, John quiffed seat 16. I'm sorry, I like that. A mailer gift. Yeah, mailer... Oh yeah, WIFT is a... Started her set and you're like, oh my God, who gets a seat? So you both go looking for someone to help you, but along the way, this is when you see the chaos unfolding. And maybe because they have their ticket, but there's the fake ticket, but they get in and so you see that this person's suspicious and your first thing to do is you have to get into the venue.
01:11:03
Speaker
It's a good tutorial puzzle, isn't it? Like, oh, I have to see Andrea drift. ah But that person has my seat. What do you do? You know that they're suspicious and then you know, you start to you just you get in, you start to watch them and see that they're doing interesting and and suspicious things. Should we use the gun, Jay? Should we just go up there? Hey, give me my seat. Oh God. And they run out. That's just how you get in with a bounce. So he goes, clearly a duplicate ticket. I say, yeah, but this is an original firearm. Let me in motherfucker. What if we did a hypothetical gun? Okay. For our audience. What if it was you like,
01:11:45
Speaker
You, you pick up your name drop and you're like, I'm her sister. I'm a gifts sister. Yeah. Janet, Janet swift. That's too close. That one's pretty good. I like Janice. Yeah. And yeah, okay. That's the metaphorical gun is the name drop and you can only use it in one puzzle. Yeah. Oh, I see. So it's, it's like a get out of, sort of like a get out of jail free card. Then you free card basically. Do you know who I am?
01:12:19
Speaker
You got to the radio control microphone stand and they're like, you can't touch this. I'm like heavily trained to do this. You will literally electrocute everyone. If you touch this thing, you pull out your card that is just your driver's license. No, but it's your finger and you're like, do you know who I am? Do you know who I am? I am literally related to, um, Quinton Biff. Quinton Biff. And they go, wow. Okay. Yeah. You touch this expensive equipment. I'm leaving. yeah they just out and we rest new objectives on that. What's the, what's the big twist? What's the, what is the event? I want this, I want to, I want this game fully formed before we get into prioritizing Julia on the narrative. I think that, well, I mean, I think the most obvious twist would be that Staylor grift is in on it.
01:13:05
Speaker
ah stop ah That's too good. I love it. Go go on. Sorry. Yeah. She could, she could be in on it and maybe, I don't know. And you have to foil her and there's a whole dramatic thing on stage where you have to get on stage by pretending to be a backup dancer. And there's a little clicky, not a quick time event because we don't do this, but like something like that where you almost have to get your way on stage by improvising the costume and then getting close enough to something on the stage that you need. Oh, I like it. It's it's actually it's not um trailer trailer um subscribe trailer thrift.
01:13:42
Speaker
It's not trailer fricked, it's someone else and they have an elaborate costume on and you have to unzip their mask. um who who Who is it that's inside? That's the question. Who's inside that costume? Janet Jackson. You can't use her name either because we won't get the IP, so it's a manic man's bonnet max. Manic Manson's too close to... Oh, we can't do that. yeah um ah
01:14:14
Speaker
cage so Here's a much easier one that wouldn't require any permissions is give that all this classic Golden Age mystery stroke twist is the person that you followed in to into the venue who had the fake ticket actually is a pair of twins and this whole time They've been, you know, two of them and you just never realized that it was that way. Cause you're like, how can they be, you know, in two pilot places? And you always open this. At the end of the game, when you realize they have a twin, you walk into the bathroom, which is the final room. You're the twin. yeah with a meanja oh Oh my God. Wasn't this a great concert? I didn't even use the gun.
01:14:58
Speaker
did use your guide who i am you know who i am eric Thank you for just pulling up the gun every day as a visual aid just everybody who's listening and watching knows like this is what a gun is you Yeah, to going to well they're very threatening yeah yeah like I am jailer quiffs sister Yeah, I like Staylor grift. That's pretty good. That was my favorite. yeah that is a good one yeah Yeah, that's one of my favorites. I hope that the community approach us with all of the names that we we came up with and somebody posts it in the discord or on Twitter for me um because I'd love, I've forgotten all of them. I i can barely remember who I am right now because of the lack of sleep, but I want to see all these names. I want to see them.
01:15:45
Speaker
Julie, was it wasn't hard to get the detail in like the boa or the shoes that you made in your game? Because I'm thinking that like is is doing a concert with people in crazy
Supporting Creative Content
01:15:56
Speaker
outfits going to be... Oh, and in yes yeah. No, not at all. Not at all. In fact, what's so great about this style of artwork in the style of game is people are kind of their their minds are kind of doing half the work for you in a way. yeah um when thing When graphics are simpler than people are filling that gap in the way that you fill the same gap in with with when you're reading a book that doesn't have pictures or you know all that stuff. And that's another part of the reason why I find this type of thing so engaging is that um you kind of have to use a bit of imagination.
01:16:25
Speaker
right on. film drink yeah Humans want to see faces in everything. They want to see humanity in yeah whatever they're looking at. um Yeah, like I actually have um and So someone at the event actually gave me this. Oh, yeah. Cool. we did a cross case and And so people when they see this face, they've projected all kinds of emotions on the face. First of all, thank you, Caitlin. I always say Caitlin gave this to me at at my um my demo table on during the event. And I had it on my demo table the rest of the event. And people project all kinds of emotions on that face because it is so plain. But you can't do that when you have something super realistic and specific. Yeah. It's the beauty of it. Yeah.
01:17:04
Speaker
yeah Beautiful. All right. Time-wise, we've got a few more donations. As soon as we got into that fucking that brainstorming pitch idea, people ze when they rolled in people rolling in. But just to remind you guys, um everyone in chat and everyone listening, this show and every other show here on Second Wind is supported by your kind donations, whether they're on Patreon or also um from YouTube chat. So we appreciate each and every one of you. You're keeping this crazy unhinged content alive. Thank you so much. All right. Let's go through this madness if I can move this bloody tab off my screen. God. Right.
01:17:48
Speaker
whoo Canadian Devs from the Reapers Grimm. Canadian Devs, hype. Apparently if you're not in Calgary, what's wrong with Calgary? Oh, it's fine. It's it's got a lot of fun. It's very sunny. It's not fine. beautiful band is nearby it's It's a gorgeous place. I'm just making fun. People make fun of it. Well, I think Canadians make fun of Alberta in the same way some Americans might make fun of Texas. Right. they say Oh, they all I don't know. You're typical like ah urban versus rural ah Western rivalries. That's my interpretation. Julie, how can we be urban or rural?
01:18:26
Speaker
Well, Calgary's urban, but it was like an oil city, you know, and it has an association with being more rural. That was the impression I got living there, at least if I'm like a Texas city versus a Southern California city. Right. there's There's a difference. People are super nice there and there's a lot more space. So coming you know come from Toronto. I just I love the idea of Calgary busy. It's not, you know, not nearly as busy as you would expect on a Toronto not busy day. So there's a lot of things going for it. i like hats hey great's right I didn't get a grade. I was there during COVID. So I didn't get the full experience, the city, but those are the impressions I got. All right. Uh, Yuko Valis sword gives $5. Thanks so much. He says, I found your work. Thanks to one short. eye I adore the style. Hell yeah. said dad
Julia's Inspirations and Game Promotion
01:19:15
Speaker
ah Urban gives 25 Polish currency, because I'm terrible with currency. I appreciate you. the The classic Polish coin. That's what they say when you go to the supermarket. That'll be 25 Polish currencies please. yeah i was So why I'm late was because I was in Prague and um I was on the way back before getting on the plane. I was um with a PR person who was also on the same plane I was i was on and um she was like, oh, um would you like a drink? i I'll buy you a drink. And I was like, oh, thank you so much. So we'll grab some coffees and some drinks for our bags and stuff. And she went to the counter and um I don't know what the conversion rate was or how they do currency in Prague.
01:19:57
Speaker
But the the drinks cost us 65,000 of a currency. And I was like, wow, I'm really getting spoiled by these spr people they're dropp in 65,000 currency for a Coke. um but but ah So yeah, but I didn't even read the message out. I would just be goofing about currencies. um First, thank you, Julia, for continuing to make my favorite type of games. And second, since you mentioned Yachts, have you played any of his AGS games? Oh yes, i played I've played all of them. And the one I love the most is Trilby's Notes, which was his parser game that he made. So that's my favorite one. oh But I even played Consuming Shadow. I actually did some EGA like an e g some e g versions of some of the Consuming Shadow screens, because i just like that's something else I like to do, just EGA of fine stuff. Yeah, I played them in our goal and actually in in um the introductory sequence of my game.
01:20:49
Speaker
And in the museum basement, there is a metal shelf that's on one of the walls and there's a Chizou Mythos idol on that shelf. That's my kind of like, thank you for being that inspiration for me. Yeah. Julia, can I i make a request from you and I will pay you for this. can you eat can you e j a i me and ludo in our little costumes yeah absolutely i've i've done commissions before like right now of course not i'm not really doing them but super busy but yes absolutely but told when you were less busy and yeah' less horrifically busy i would love to do that i would absolutely absolutely love to do that um it's one of yeah i love to do that type of thing and the's something i've probably
01:21:29
Speaker
Can you EJFI me and Ludo in our little costumes? I play retro EGA adventure games as well on my stream. Yeah, I would love to do that. It's a fun thing to do. Yeah. Okay, cool. I'll leave in contact because that's so exciting. Please. And where can people find your work? Oh yeah, great question. yes So of course, on the Crimson Diamond, you can find it on the Steam store page, wishlisting. And of course, everyone you know super knows that it's very, very important to do that. So it can launch well. um you know but Of course, please buying it if you want to, if you think it's something that you might like and leaving a review, super, super important. So that's the absolute number one thing. Aside from anything else I do, ah crim the Crimson Diamond on Steam launching on August the 15th.
01:22:13
Speaker
But also the crimson diameter.com is like my website where I've got all my links to social media and my YouTube channel where I put up my VODs. And I also stream on Twitch a underscore maple mystery. So you'll find me all those places. There we go. Perfect. Check them out. All right. We've got a few more to go through seeing you $1.99. Thank you. just Seriously. Can you make the child leash game platformer? That was the first podcast. I, as much as I love and respect Tim to the maximum, I prefer our jailer Biff to game, honestly. really but I genuinely do. I think I'd play that more, you know? We would have a lot of fun. Do you know who I am?
01:22:58
Speaker
i so I love it. I think it's hilarious. Jay, I'm still laughing about the guns. youve Anybody who's been watching has seen that I've been getting the giggles off mic. Your proposal there is hilarious. Because it's such a creation cathartic. Gamers are like familiar with shooters, right? It's such a cathartic way to be like, you're in the adventure game. You're like, do I need to get the the bottle and fill it with water? And then I just, fuck it. And you just draw. And then you pull it up to the guy. And you're like, let me in. It's absolutely hilarious. I love it. no funny dark jackal what a name five dollars thank you he says sorry i can't stay putting a new roof on my place all right fair enough dark jackal that is quite an intense
01:23:39
Speaker
intense job. And now I suddenly have bees in my kitchens. Jesus, it gets worse. I'll have to watch later, but accept my thanks now. Dijakkal, we really appreciate you. I hope you sort out the roof and the bees. Maybe you can wombo combo this and ferry the bees upstairs and they'll fly out of your broken roof and then you can pack it. you know dark jackals playing a real life adventure game right now oh no how do i get rid of the bees and finish how do i get rid of the bees gun yeah that's how i wanted oh my so good on quiet records with 29.99 polish money Gibbs says i'll look it up i'll look it up when it's called
01:24:26
Speaker
We have access to the internet in front of us. I don't. I, I'm completely off grid, which shows a lot slotty slotty OTY. Yeah. the Do you know what the worst thing is? I was in Poland like three months ago.
01:24:42
Speaker
I'm just dumb. Unquiet Records is the legend. Says early 2000 games that are still beautiful and haven't aged at all. Siberia or the longest journey. Great entry point for Tina's point and click era. So Siberia is the longest journey. I forgot about Siberia. Yeah. I have not played that one. So I will add it to my list as well. It's a cool one. I'm not the most adventure game, uh, educated, but Siberia was a classic adventure game. Yeah. Well, now you are. Thanks julia for spreading the good word said sovereign gives five of the Euro variety. See, I know that one. and says what for Oh, here we go. Referencing the gun thing.
01:25:28
Speaker
There was a 90s point and click a game called Dream Web, where half the puzzle solutions was just shoot the obstacle in the face. What? Really? Oh my god. Oh, look at that. I'm looking at it now. Yeah, it's an incredible top-down view kind of thing, which is kind of rare. But I'm also thinking about the old deja vu game, where you could kind of shoot stuff more than you'd expect to solve puzzles. Yeah, it's incredible looking. It's this, you know, like you've got this giant face on the side. You know what's funny? Like Yahtzee actually did a Let's Play of this game, like way ages ago. Oh, did he? Yeah, he did. He did with his friend. Yeah.
01:26:02
Speaker
And his YouTube channel. That's funny. It's a great one. I'll have to dig that up, dredge it up from somewhere. All right. That was all of our wonderful donations from all of the wonderful viewers. Does anybody have anything to say before we start? Actually, I feel kind of bad because you brought us in. I shouldn't be sending us out. Do you guys want to do the spiel? Yeah, Mike. I don't remember the spiel. I need your help. I'll make up a spiel. Oh, I'll make up a spiel then. Sure. Shoot from the hip. I thought you were saying there was a uniform one. Yeah, shoot from the hip. I will. But before I do that, I have to ask Julia one last question, and then we could do it. It's a quick one. Julia, are you, because of your, you know, your infection as a child and because of your passion to develop into adventure games, are you good at them? Like, are you skilled and talented? Like, no, you're not? Okay. Because I feel I play
01:26:59
Speaker
I've only played a few and I feel like you can't be, but maybe I'm wrong. ah no you can't I've seen people. I've seen people who are good at them, like really good at them. I am not. And I think that might be working in my favor here because the I tried to make it as easy as possible to play this game, you know, um because I'm not. I'm really not. And, ah you know, going so far as to say that I have actually written my own handbook for this game. um that I'm considering making available upon launch because i I don't want people to get stuck and frustrated. I want people, like for me, the story is like first, and I want people to be able to get from beginning to end and have an enjoyable experience. um Yeah.
01:27:36
Speaker
I think there's beauty in allowing the community to do that as well. um I think something I spoke to Billy Basso about with Animal Well was the beauty of um the difficulty of a game or its puzzles actually being a force to bring a community together rather than a force for frustration. So what you're saying is I should not release the hint book and if anyone has a problem with it, they should come to you. Yes, definitely. um That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm going to go finish it and start writing my own or encouraging like you could make ah make a website, which is basically a forum space where it is the handbook for the game and the community create the handbook. um And that would be like a beautiful little project for all of your your you know biggest fans. um I think that could that could be really cool. Yeah, maybe I'll put it off a little bit then.
01:28:27
Speaker
o We'll see. I'm excited. I was about to say good idea, Julia, but then Jay, you said that I thought, yeah, maybe it's better to just s let players figure it out. That's part of the fun of these games anyway. And, and hey, now we have easy access message boards and steam discussions. Right. So I don't know. both valid I think they're both valid valid decisions. Um, I think there's a lot of value in posting the handbook and having that freedom for players, but also maybe both. Maybe it's like there is a handbook if you really want it, but also, Hey, you guys can figure this stuff out yourself and discuss it. Yeah. make really false twice That's the thing. I'm kind of a big you know proponent of people getting to choose how they enjoy something. Of course. and
01:29:09
Speaker
yeah accessibility. Cool. Well, I think that about wraps it up, everybody. And I'll take this opportunity to step up and say, thank you so much for watching DevHeads. This has been a blast. Julia, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Julia. It was nice meeting you. This has been a pleasure. This has been an awesome show. One more time, Julia. ah Tell us about Crimson Diamond. When is it coming out? Where can they get it? What should they do now? and Yes. Yeah. as The the k Crimson Diamond is coming out August the 15th, very soon, on ah this on Steam, on Itch.io, and also ah Fireflower. dot Games. I'm sorry, Fireflower Games. And if what you can do now is you could please wishlist it. It helps so much. It helps developers so much. Because ah
Closing and Social Links
01:29:50
Speaker
um something we mentioned before is the games are a lot easier to make, but it's a lot easier to get seen and be visible. And that really goes a long way to that.
01:29:58
Speaker
Um, and also just as a quick, quick addendum to that, I will say that, yeah, back in the day, there was, it was hard to make games, but you know, you would sell much more because there's so fewer games coming out nowadays. We have the opposite problem. It's so much easier to make games, but then there's so many coming out. And I got to say like, I prefer it this way because I want more people to be, be able to be creative and share that stuff. So I'll take, I'll take the struggle for visibility. If it just means more people can do stuff and make stuff. That's beautiful. That's absolutely beautiful. You are a true artist, Julia. so Thank you. Yeah. So that's the thing. So Steam, please wishlist on Steam. Also, yeah, I do stream um on Twitch 8 p.m. Eastern. and eight A underscore Maple mystery. I'll be streaming next week on Tuesday. So we'll hopefully see you there. And maybe Dan will be there. And sometimes Dan tells us what he's been up to. And yeah, you can find everything at the Crimson Diamond dot com.
01:30:45
Speaker
Awesome. Thank you so much, Julia. Thanks, everybody, for watching. And we will see you in just a couple of weeks. Take care. Thank you, guys. Bye bye.