Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
How to Get Into Game Dev | Dev Heads Podcast
1.1k Plays4 months ago
This week, the Dev Heads crew chats about their unique paths into the games industry.
Second Wind is fully independent, employee-owned and fan-funded. Consider supporting us on Patreon for as little as $1/month at patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Phantom Spark and Dev Heads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
This video is brought to you by the high speed world of Phantom Spark, a precision time trial racing game coming soon to Steam, Nintendo Switch, PlayStation and Xbox.
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Dev Heads, the podcast focused on the ins, outs and goings on game development with hosts experience ranging from indie double to triple A. I'm Jay. I'm joined by my wonderful co-host, Tina. Hello, how's it going? Hey Mikey. Yo, hello. And this is a very early edition of Dev Heads because you've got places to to be later on, right Mikey?
Podcast Scheduling and Humorous Gaming Anecdotes
00:00:41
Speaker
I do. I do. The second wind team, the dev heads are quite accommodating to my needs and they were immediately accommodating. Was it even a questionnaire like, yeah, let's try to make that work. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you everybody who's watching and, uh, for being okay with the different, I'm seeing yawns in the chat. Cause what time is it for you guys right now? It's 7.30 in the morning. Yeah.
00:01:05
Speaker
yeah god damn I'm glad you guys can't smell my breath. Cause I didn't do anything about that this morning. We haven't got some elevation yet. So we're safe ah they didnt retroactively do it to past media. Cause then we're fine. Can I share a quick smell related gaming anecdote? yeah It's my favorite. Adam Sessler, I think is his name. This was like post X play, like at an E3 or some event I was at, I was listening to a talk with him and someone else. And he was talking to a sort of biz dev type, I think. I can't remember exactly. And this guy was saying, you know, there's some pretty interesting weird texts that I've seen over the years. And one of them was like gaming that had ah an olfactory component, like something you attached under your nose. And Adam Sessler, I think it was, blinked and he said, I don't know about the rest of you.
00:01:56
Speaker
but I don't want to know what quake smells like. Yeah, no, thanks. What year was that franchise? Yeah. I can't remember the year actually. And what did you say, Joe? What would be the worst smelling franchise? Like I think quakes up there. Oh, the explosives, the door. Do you guys remember a toe jam and Earl? yeah but Yeah. Well, that takes place on alien worlds, which might smell good. We don't really know. He probably doesn't smell very good, but the worlds are like kind of wide. So you could like walk to the other end and stay away from Toe Jam. If they name themselves Toe Jam.
00:02:40
Speaker
Or their parents named them Toe Jam. They probably don't care that much about what they smell like. So they probably stink. It's pretty nasty. Someone in the chat said, uh, Scorn. and Another person said Borderlands. Yeah. Oh, Scorn. Yeah. I think ah like FromSoft, like Souls, all of those swamps and just like bogs and stuff and death arrows. All the bosses with all their different parts and all the different crevices are next to the door of mine is going to be a top 10 smelliest bosses in Dark Souls. I promise. There's a lot of boom too. My voice does not smell like any of these. It doesn't smell like a bomb. But we were going to and we kind of announced it on our socials and stuff that we were going to have a guest.
Paths into the Gaming Industry
00:03:29
Speaker
We're going to have a boobie car on for this episode, but
00:03:32
Speaker
Unfortunately because of ah Hollywood things, because um our man Abu Bakr's a legit celeb had to go do some stuff um which is unfortunate but you know these things happen and we're going to reschedule for another date so we can still get him on and talk about his experiences and stuff like that. But instead we thought we'd decide to sit down and just kind of discuss how the dev heads got into game development um and the different avenues because we all took different routes into the industry. And it's a question we get a lot in chat um and on Twitter and stuff like that is, you know, people might be looking to get into the games industry, but don't know how or think they can't. And um I think hearing about our experiences and also discussing other avenues for for you guys might be real interesting. um
00:04:20
Speaker
Tina, what was what was your kind of avenue to, well, first of all, what made you want to get into game development? Well, I was playing games since I was four. And then when I was in college, I had, across the hall from me, there was a room full of like five or six guys and they had an Xbox. Yeah, Xbox, not 360. Yeah, Xbox. um And we would play Halo all the time. And I realized that, you know, now that I'm like graduating in a few months, I have no idea what I want to do. And I started panicking and I had an English major. So, you know, everyone would make fun of me. Like, what are you gonna do with that?
00:05:01
Speaker
um ah So I started googling every company um of the games I loved, right? So I looked up like Sega, EA, Activision, um and I just started applying for jobs. Like I didn't know what jobs there really were. You know, like i my parents never um told me what the game industry had to offer. I didn't know what the game industry had to offer. I just knew that I played them. um I was my the first in my family to go to school, too. So um everyone was sort of like panicking for me, which was extremely stressful. um So, yeah, I sent my resume to over 50 different companies. I tailored each one to that company. um And towards the very end, I started like losing steam and I applied for a
00:05:52
Speaker
I think it was a senior sales and marketing position at Koei Corporation. They at the time published Dynasty Warriors and Kessin. It was a Japanese company. They had an office here in California in Burlingame. And I didn't know at the time, but there was only like four people that worked out of that office. It was a satellite office. Um, so when I interviewed and I told them, like, I love Cassin, I think I wrote this long thing. Um, they ended up changing the position for me to, uh, to an entry level. And then they brought me on board, which is really cool. Wow. That's lovely. It was the year 18, 16. Um, it was 2007.
00:06:39
Speaker
Zira graduated. What would you say game education was like back then? Like well there was nothing really. I don't think there was anything. um Yeah. Uh, there's no video game related stuff. Um, and back then when I met devs, like when I met Tim Shafer and his crew, they all just sort of self taught themselves everything, right? Like messed around with the computer at home when there were kids and stuff. So, um, yeah, yeah, there was, there was nothing yet.
00:07:13
Speaker
it's difficult to like think about in that situation not having an education because I was fortunate enough to you know have an education in in game design in game dev and the courses ah that I did were very broad and they were very keen on teaching us all of the different spaces and talents that I needed to create a game so I had an idea of like even what I wanted to specialize in, rather than just being like, um knowing you want to work in games and just having to be like, not sure what kind of roles there are I'm going to apply to all of these things. Well, it's a good job you didn't lose steam and you kept going because look at you now.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I think that was like the key component that a lot of people when they ask, um, you know, how do you get in games? You need to be very persistent and not listen to people when they tell, you know, cause, um, eventually something's going to give, but it is a very, just from my personal experience, it's like a very, uh, It's a very hard thing to understand and crack from the outside. um Like there wasn't really anyone available to say, hey, here's what I did or here's what you should do. um But, you know, I'm again, like just playing games my whole life. Didn't know anyone in the industry. um
00:08:32
Speaker
I was fortunate enough to live in the Bay Area, so I went to GDC thinking like, oh, I can meet someone that will help me out as a student. And I think the student passes back then were $90. You know, the average ticket now is like a hundred a thousand bucks or something. But um yeah, 90 bucks. And I got to go to some talks I saw. um Um, you know, people presenting and I tried to meet them afterwards and stuff, but they would ask like, Oh, what do you do? And I'm like, nothing yet. You were awesome. You were network. And you're doing what you got to do with GDC. Yeah. And they're like, well, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I have no idea. Just make games. Um, do you recommend that like going to, if you're kind of starting out and you're able to get, say like a pass to go to GDC and network, do you, would you recommend like networking as a way to get your foot in the door?
Networking and Portfolio Building
00:09:24
Speaker
Yes, but for ah many reasons, not just for the career aspect, I think it's a good morale boost to just be around other people that make games or like want to make games. um It definitely clears your head and kind of helps you focus and get more inspiration to keep going and applying. um But in addition to that, there's you know a lot of opportunity to learn. um you know Sitting in those panels, you could learn um all sorts of things like what it takes to produce a game. There's probably going to be stuff about AI by the time you know people listening to us eventually go if they have the opportunity. So ah yeah, I would encourage it. But again, like I wouldn't break your bank account to do it. um
00:10:11
Speaker
i wasn't you know there a wealthy student. I don't think anyone is. um So yeah, it was it was hard for me to like scrounge up that extra money, but um I was very thankful to do so. It was in my backyard. Yeah, it's it's good to be realistic about it because going to these events. And if you're looking for work or to network, it's it's to temper your expectations in the sense of you're not going to go there and get swept up by some magical dev who's going to offer you a ah job immediately. I mean, these things do happen. um But because of that, you need to have for those things to possibly happen, you have to have quite a decent portfolio. And I think that's something that's really important for me that I will always encourage is
00:10:56
Speaker
Having a portfolio and creating is way more powerful than any form of education you could have. As someone who you know has that education and taught in that university space as well. having a decent portfolio that you know might not be to an industry standard, but shows that you have that drive and passion to do those things is way more beneficial to you than having a degree, in in my opinion. ah yeah Even to get into the education space, I remember when I went to do my degree in the first year, um the
00:11:32
Speaker
The person who now runs the uni course, he runs three of them, all of the game dev courses at the uni I taught, he runs them all now. He has, ah he had no GCSEs, like right he, which are like, um, English, um, like high school education, like yeah certificates. He had none of them and was just kind of working in a in a grocery store for 10 years and decided I want to get into games, but no university would take him because he didn't have the education. So he just made two games by himself in Unreal and sent them into the at the time, the head lecturer and said here that I made this by myself. I'm passionate. I know I don't have the qualifications.
00:12:17
Speaker
let me prove myself to you and they let him on the course. He then got the highest grade on every single assignment and now runs the courses. yeah And that's what matters is showing that you have the passion and the drive and um the the want to develop the skill. That's what matters. That's going to get you through doors. You know, it's yeah if a job is asking for one thing, you never know. Send in your stuff. They might see your portfolio and be like, damn, this is actually exactly what we're looking for. Yeah, they might not have the experience or the qualifications we want, but let's give them a chance. Right. Don't give up on that stuff.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah. ill Also say that, um, YouTube and Twitter and you know, all the social media stuff wasn't really a thing when I graduated. So I, there was probably a, a lot more available now for free online somewhere. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. You mean as far as like courses and stuff? Yeah. Or just, um, you know, anecdotes about how people got in or just even recommendations, free courses. Yeah, there's a lot of really good stuff on YouTube, honestly. Udemy is another good one that's paid, but they have sales all the time. yeah That's U-D-E-M-Y, if anybody wants to look it up. Lots of good courses there for Unreal, for Unity, whatever, really. I mean, Unreal is like the one that a lot of people use right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's really good to get into. That's all when when I was at the uni, that's one of the main engines we focused on. I mean, we stopped teaching unity for obvious reasons um and moved to Godot and stuff like that. But unreal is a really good one to get into developing those skills. It's just like with have any artistic endeavor, if you're looking to do it as a career, it's going to take time to build up the skills to be kind of I don't want to say the word competitive in the industry, but At the end of the day, especially, and unfortunately, because of all of the layoffs, when you apply now, you are going to be competing with people who probably do have more experience and um time in the industry than you, which yeah, it does put you on the back for a little bit, but.
00:14:36
Speaker
that doesn't change ah how people may view like your portfolio or what you can bring to the table artistically might be unique compared to someone else who might be what they're looking for. um So especially if you're thinking about getting into the industry but you're disheartened by seeing all of that well you should be and it's terrible that all these layoffs are happening there's there's no good way about it But don't be don't think there's never going to be any opportunity for me because everyone else is looking as well.
Future of Gaming Industry and Career Advice
00:15:05
Speaker
You know you don't know what you could bring. um You just need to take the time to you know develop that unique portfolio, if that's the way of putting it.
00:15:16
Speaker
You know, it's just, it's a scary time, but, and everybody has their own theories. Everybody has their speculation on, Oh, we're just in a cycle. It'll get better. No, it's going to fundamentally change. Oh, well, AI is going to do this. Oh no, it won't do anything. It's, it's anybody's guess really the the thing that, that I'm. that I'm saying or that I say now is like, who knows? And yeah, it's scary. But look, if if you are curious about it and it's interesting to you, then just start doing it. And if it draws you and you're like, hey, this is fun. I'm enjoying this. I'm passionate. I'm really driven to do this. Well, just keep going with it. ah you'll You'll feel it if it's something that calls you. And
00:16:02
Speaker
you know, ah make sure your finances and your family and everything else is handled. And and depending on, you'll set your own tempo and you'll go as far with it as you want to. If it's something you develop a passion for and you get into, well, then try, right? then Then you just prove to yourself, OK, this is interesting. I'm going to give it a go. Because at the end of the day, nobody knows how the space might change or how it might not change. So just go for it. Try to be passionate. Teach yourself. i I also, I guess coming from like the modding background and working with the the people that I did when I started in like 2013, I definitely have a bit of a bias toward like, well, you don't need to go to school. You can always do modding stuff. Now the space, I think it's changed a lot. Like modding will definitely teach you things, help you to network, et cetera. But back then, like the the tools weren't as good as they are now. When I say the tools, I mean,
00:16:58
Speaker
Unreal, Godot, ah yeah Unity, whatever. so And on top of that, all the resources are really, really nice. Just like I was saying, udemy youtube you can learn so, so, so much from using those things. And you don't necessarily need to like go to a game that you like and start modding it. That's not to say like you know you can't, it's a great idea, and it might be a better start. and especially if you're passionate about the game, do whatever feels exciting to you. And if it keeps drawing you in, then then lean into it and say, all right, well, maybe I'll send out my stuff. It's just like you're saying, Jay, like have a portfolio. it's It's the best kind of start. I think it's better than just handing people a college resume and saying, like well, I took these courses. Having something goes really far. When I'm looking at an application or a resume, that's what I'll look at.
00:17:47
Speaker
I also encourage, and this is just me, I'd be curious what Jay and and Tina think of this, but keep it gaming focused, like whatever you put on there. Like it's not important to know that you worked at a car wash, right? Or that you worked at ah at a coffee shop. That's good. Like you should keep doing that because you got to make ends meet. And it shows you know that you're ah you're the kind of person that can hold a job, right? like That's, of course, important anytime you want to hire somebody, you want to see work experience. But at the same time, like it might draw from the focus away a little bit. And if you have enough to fill the resume of like gaming projects, even if there were student projects or independent ones that were multi-month, multi-year, put that but that front and center. That's what's important to see, of course.
00:18:31
Speaker
I think it's how you frame it, right? It's the sentence of, oh, i ah while pursuing um and developing my skills within the games industry, I also held down jobs, part-time jobs in you know the service industry or whatever. um Again, like you said, shows that you can hold down a job while pursuing these things, which is super important, right? Being able to pursue your passions while also what ah working. um is a really good skill to have. Keeping it gaming focused is really important. I think you were saying before.
00:19:07
Speaker
If two people with the exact same education and skill level ah say in 3D art go to a job interview for a 3D artist job, like an environment artist, and one hands their master's degree and the other hands a portfolio and three environments they've created and um ah like a really nice portfolio, I guarantee you the portfolio would win and would to get the job if those two applied at the same time because having a degree is all well and good and shows that you've degrees are effectively the same as holding down that job. They're showing that you can dedicate yourself to a thing for an extended period of time and, you know, gather knowledge. Yeah. But it's not the same as actually showing the physical evidence. I can do it. Here I am doing it. Right. thats yeah It goes a long way. and you say tina yeah I did want to bring up um that like it's OK if you don't know exactly what you want to do in video games because I didn't. Right. I just kind of fell into everything I did. ah You can't really have a portfolio if you don't know what you want to do or understand what developers do, especially for production. Like I've never seen a producer with a portfolio. I kind of get envious of that. Like I wish I had a way of showing what I physically did.
00:20:24
Speaker
for all the games I worked on. Your portfolio is the games right that you worked on. that's Yeah, I guess. That's true. You're an organizer, Sue. I will i will argue, though, that um when you work in AAA, literally 300 to 900 people are saying the exact same thing. like I worked on this game. That's cool, but like how do you prove that the portion or like the responsibilities you had were led to significant. but Yeah. Right. um Like even now, when I look at like cod or apex or anything I did in the past, like.
00:21:01
Speaker
You know, there's people that are saying like, I created Apex. I'm like, I have no idea who you are. I think you started maybe a few years after the game launched, which is cool. Like I'm not going to like, I'm not upset by someone saying that, but you know, being there from an inception and getting it out the doors, I think a more significant thing to do than like coming in after the game's established and then working on it. But again, like. I kind of derailed there. I just wanted to say that. um you know don't be Don't be discouraged if you don't have a portfolio. I would still like hone in on what your like one focus is and then just keep driving towards it. And also, you don't have to hit your main target on the first try. What I mean by that is you may get a job in the game industry that you may not necessarily love.
00:21:54
Speaker
You may even hate it. And I think that's okay. I think the most important thing is that you got your foot in the door and you're like a few steps or one step closer to that dream job that you actually yeah want to get to. Because I see a lot of young people applying to something. They're like, I want to be a creative director on this franchise. And I'm like, God damn, like a director, you know, that's going to take a few years. I'm ambitious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you know, it's you're going to have to break it down into smaller steps. um And that's why I agree with that. like I largely agree with that. I think ah I think it's super important to.
00:22:33
Speaker
and understand that you have to start small and accept like, okay, i'm I'm gonna, my goal is to do design or production or community. But you know what, this QA role is here for me now. It's a good project. I know a person there, and they say the team has got, you know, a good ah ah good team culture to it, whatever, whatever. And that's good. You know, at the same time, you you got to make sure you don't get stuck. ah There's certainly nothing wrong with with any like particular department of working in in games. They each have their pros and cons, but like be sure that you... that you i I do think it really helps to have that portfolio or that other ambition or just something. yeah
00:23:12
Speaker
Because when the opportunity comes where it's like, Hey, actually, I really like to jump on this. Here's why I can do it. It's good. But I also hear what but you're saying to, you know, we're like, what do you show people when you get into production and you want to do production? How do you prove that? I guess ah Jay and I are thinking more from like the, the art design, sound et cetera. Yeah. oh I think it it goes to, so like, let's say you get your foot in the door in whatever role, you know, community management, QA, um, whatever, let let's use QA as the example. You get in and you're an aspiring feet, 3d artist, and you want to work in 3d environment art, but you can't because they're just not taking you seriously or whatever. What you can do is just like we were talking about working in a coffee shop and proving that you can still pursue your passions the same time.
00:24:03
Speaker
Working in QA is the exact same situation. you it's it's a It's a decent job. like QA's um not bad at all. But you if you want to pursue 3D art still, you still need to call out your free time to keep working your portfolio. You're just in a much more privileged space now to have the opportunity to go to the current 3D artists and basically show them what you've done and ask for feedback. You're not asking for a job, you're asking for feedback and you know um how to improve and um what they think of it. And this gets your work in their mind and your consideration for whenever jobs do come up. um And also you're improving. like Everyone's in that situation where you get to communicate with industry professionals in a field.
00:24:51
Speaker
Um, on a day to day basis. So that's how I would approach trying to work up the ladder is kind of like. Keep your passion and keep your portfolio going. Just expand that and show that to the relevant people. And then. at the very least, your skills will improve. And then you can take that to whatever you do next, you know, kind of what I did to get to where I am now. So when I was working at Koei five person team, there's, they said, okay, your job is to,
00:25:25
Speaker
um you know, send physical ah requests to um CD makers to make the game and send it stores. But also try to get um game journalists to write about our games like, OK, that should be fine. And I go to GameSpot and be like, please, like we put a door in our game. Please put it on the front page of games right about the door. Yeah, we have a ladder now you can climb. It's like really cool. You guys know that door contents are real hot right now. You don't want to be left behind IGN. you know So, you know, I like drive my car to their offices and stuff. I go in and I'm like, Oh my God, this place is so cool. Like there's like games everywhere and arcade machines and stuff. And like, yo,
00:26:10
Speaker
We pushed the fog back so you can see a little bit more enemies near you on screen when you're fighting. And they'd be like, OK. And this is like such a defeating moment. But ah getting to know people was like a huge thing I didn't realize would help me in the future. So when one up. Oh, yeah. and decided to hire a community manager because they're like, I think this is a thing we need. They just asked me because I was always there like, please like put our game on the front page of your website. um Yeah. And then I jumped at it and ah I got that job and it was really cool. um But yeah, I felt like every, every place I've been at has been a stepping stone to like the new one because you're meeting more people, you're expanding your network and they consider you
00:26:58
Speaker
more seriously when they sort of know who you are rather than like cold calling somebody which is yeah in an unfortunate reality in any I think industry but yeah just getting facetime with the people that matter to you is important too. More than it should honestly like I mean I don't want to say like the games industry is is ah and only nepotism or incestuous, yeah. But but I do think you know people people will think, hmm, we need a 3D artist for this. Oh, wait, didn't I meet that nice 3D artist at GDC? And they'll pull up that portfolio. And hell, like your portfolio might be better than the nice 3D artist at GDC.
00:27:41
Speaker
but people are people and it's like any other industry so they'll go on the higher the nice person that they met and ah in that sense it can be a bit of a shame but just like any other industry like you kind of just have to deal with that aspect of it you know people hire their friends or people that made a good impression even if their quality is like the same as yours or worse. So, you know, get yourself out there. It was tough for me because I grew up in fucking Jersey, right? So I was in suburban Jersey and there's there's no game development really in Philly or very little in New York City. Is there a rock star studio out there in New York? I think they are. Yeah. Yeah. There's rock star. I think the people who made Homefront years ago were started in Philly or based out of Philadelphia.
00:28:29
Speaker
which, uh, I can't remember, but, uh, like on the East coast or some, but not a lot, right? Yeah, there's some, uh, most of it's out here, you know, in Southern California and stuff. yeah Um, but yeah, so I think the, I think that it's super important to, I guess, deal with that aspect and just accept that that's true and then just be ambitious. ah for you Try to get yourself out to these kinds of events. If you're like me and you grew up in, you know, a suburb somewhere and in a, I wasn't promote, right? Like I was just in central New Jersey, but, but I think that you need to do your best to try to get out to some events. I want to hear what you did. i do did Did you go to like New York Comic Con and stuff?
00:29:14
Speaker
No, no, I i went to, so i my story is interesting, I guess. I find it interesting. I got pretty lucky. I okay i got, ah well, I went to school at the University of Delaware, right? So I made myself a little more removed from the the big urban centers of the country by going to school at Delaware. And i studied ah I studied mass communications, sort of like a sociology of media. I also, like you, like I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I enjoyed doing stuff at the radio station. ah If you're ever driving through Delaware and you and you turn on the WVD radio station 91.3, I think it still is, you might actually still hear some of my promotions that I voiced. I basically founded a team of people to help me do like five to eight, I think, ah PSAs, promotions. We would write them, we would do the voices, and it was a lot of fun. I never actually had a show. I just like doing the promotions and PSAs. Can you give a like its a preview of what a promotion sounds like? What's your promotional voice?
00:30:12
Speaker
it It was just, that it would be all different kinds of voices. ah Usually just me, like we would do like a skit. We would write a little skit to advertise a rock show that weekend at the this bar in town or whatever, or an event on campus. So it was pretty dynamic and and fun, I guess, in that. yeah but ah But yeah, it was a lot of, it was cool to do that, but yeah, not good for the game, but I was always a gamer and I liked the radio station. And I thought, well, you know what, like, what if I tried to do voice acting because I'm enjoying this radio thing and I like my hobby of gaming. I'll just smash these together. So I and and I got into modding, like I did voiceover for a bunch of different models, a lot of them, mostly in like the half life space, half life one and two modding. I saw Herbie was in the chat earlier. Hi, Herbie. Herbie's a half life one modder working on a mod called the Core. And there's a lot of different
00:31:06
Speaker
I got involved with like a a mod called Underhell. I did a bunch of them. excuse me And then eventually I got to a point where I made a connection through Underhell. I worked with a guy who then got onto a team as a level designer doing Insurgency, the original, ah in 2013. And he said, hey, like there's no voices in this game. Why don't ah you come on and like send them your demo reel, Mikey? And I said, OK, sure, I'll do it. So I sent them my demo reel. And the the guy who, you know, ah founded it like ah Jeremy Blom is his name. He did. He founded the Red Orchestra team. People know Red Orchestra. I think what he was 14 years old, which is pretty wild. And ah he said, hey, you sound pretty good. Can you voice everybody? And that was my first commercial game. I was just everybody. Literally, now people i I always say this, people use the word literally now to mean figuratively. I mean literally, every single voice in the original Insurgency is me, except for one or two, which was which was our QA guy, ah Mike Smith, ah that was ah in the tutorial area. Everybody else is me.
00:32:11
Speaker
and i Yeah, so I did that I just kind of jumped in ah don't be afraid to do stuff that makes you uncomfortable I guess is is another good piece of advice because ah I was definitely not comfortable with just doing that but I figured it out and and ah You know, there were definitely some parts that were didn't come out great I think that I'm that I'm not happy with but I was happy with most of it and I made it work and I I had
Hosts' Journey into Gaming Careers
00:32:35
Speaker
the experience and practice from modding. I got feedback from like the rest of the team that said, do this, this works. I was doing the writing and stuff as well. like the This is kind of when I got my narrative design start too. I was doing triggers and and writing dialogue, and ah which is what I'd already been doing like with the radio stuff and the other mods. I was writing and doing comm stuff even.
00:32:54
Speaker
And that's kind of how I got to start. And then there was an opening for a community manager. And so I moved into that, their voiceover direction, yada, yada. Like it was just this whole, this whole sequence. I worked on Black Mesa around that time too, again, writing voiceover again, cause I had those connections and I knew somebody who was working with them through the mining community and the Half-Life community. And then it just, it's like you said, it just builds and builds and builds. And that's why I say I got lucky. Like luck is, is a definite component of, uh, of all of this. And it's the, it's the one that's like the hardest to acknowledge because it's completely out of our control, right? It's luck after all. Dan, that's cool. It's part like you clearly had a direction you wanted to go. And like you said about your demo reel.
00:33:43
Speaker
you had been building up a portfolio of um stuff that you wanted to show. And that along with networking and luck and stuff like that, it's this combination of things that get you to where you are today. um it's It's crazy. Yeah. It is. You're right. It's a combination. Go ahead. yeah Yeah, my my move into game dev is weird because I moved out and then back in. so
00:34:14
Speaker
ah Got my education, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. um Got my degree in in game dev. um Met a, was going to start a couple, started a company with two other fellow devs and we were going to make virtual reality um games ah like commercially for like local people around England. They wanted like a virtual reality version of their big college and we would make it and do things like that. um And we were going to get funding. And um to do all of that and one of the I cannot name the person who we met. um But basically met someone who had released a triple A game that year. And said that in the span that they were making it, they had had two children and they had barely seen them and the game flopped and the company was about to be shut down.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, man. no point Yeah, I was like I was going through some weird like ah like relationship stuff at the time. And I was like thinking about how I'm like quite family driven. And um this person saying I've had two kids and I've barely seen them. um And I put five years into this game and it's dead. Yeah. I immediately quit. I was like, I'm done. I was like, I'm gonna go do something else. um This isn't for me. um It was mainly due to a lot of other things that are going on in my life, but I stopped then went to work in ah education, teaching special needs children for for a few years.
00:35:53
Speaker
Um, and then I was like, Oh, I want to get back into game dev. Um, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was like, um, level design, sound design, you know, music, all of that. But, um, I was like, I really want to find my thing because a lot of people have been saying it in chat. Uh, there are so many jobs in game dev that like the people don't even realize. yeah And it's sometimes it's difficult to look at that sea of jobs and think, what do I want to do? Because. You don't have to specialize, but you know, having a kind of specialized portfolio that's aiming in a direction does help you a lot. Um, so I was like, what am I going to do? Uh, and I missed editing. So this is kind of like, uh, also a story about how I started to become a YouTuber. They're kind of entangled these stories.
00:36:44
Speaker
Basically, I was chatting to my mom and she was like, if you could do anything, what would you do? And I was like, well, I really want to edit. I love editing videos and I want to work in the game. I want to work in game design again. And she was like, well, how could you do that? And at the time I was like, I guess I could become a YouTuber and do game dev stuff. And she was like, well, then fucking do it then. I didn't even think it was a possibility, right? um But yeah, I worked on that for a few years. um And ah that got me a job at the uni because I was doing game design videos and basically doing research ah full-time, basically researching different techniques, different ways of doing things, how other games are doing things and compiling them into a bite-sized video format and i trying to teach my viewers things. And the university I used to go to contacted me and was like, hey, Jay, I keep stealing your videos and
00:37:42
Speaker
Basically writing it into a script and then teaching it to my students. Do you just want to come do that instead? Because oh shit we can skip the middleman. So I was like, Oh, okay. So me just making YouTube videos got me a job as an associate professor. um And then I taught at the uni for like three years. while pursuing YouTube stuff. And then, um, speaking of luck, Mikey, uh, the, it was this whole thing. Uh, didn't know. I think I've told you guys privately this story, but I haven't told the viewers. It was like,
00:38:20
Speaker
I needed to make a video, made one on board lands, didn't want to do it, scrapped it, made one on Oxen 3, didn't work, scrapped it, was like really close to my deadlines, like I have no idea what I want to do. And a friend of mine was like, I'll do a video on Hyper Light Drifter. And. I was like, okay, sure. Let's just bash a hyper like drift, drift a video together, made it, put it out there, put it on Reddit, you know, trying to get some new viewers interested. And Nick found it on Reddit, Nick Calandra, the editor in chief of, uh, what was then the escapist and, uh, was like, Hey, really like what you're doing. Do you just want to do it over here for more money?
00:39:02
Speaker
um at the escapist. And you were like, money. I was like, money? Oh, no, I'm an artist. Fuck your money. And then I started working the escapist. Oh, that's so cool. yeah But it was a friend of mine who randomly said to a video on hyperlight drifter, because Nick said to me, if you didn't make a video on hyperlight drifter, and you didn't post it on reddit and it didn't have the very specific old youtube intro that i used to have he said he wouldn't have contacted me at all but because those though all of those things happened um i'm now here uh and then more youtube stuff got me my job at the on the bog which is one of the games i'm working on currently and and there's another game i'm working on which also i can't talk about but has also been
00:39:50
Speaker
birthed into being because of my designed old YouTube career thing. So I got into the space, well, I got back into the space by making YouTube videos, and which is weird. um but But again, my YouTube, like my show is my portfolio of ah demonstrating the knowledge. um I have my ability to research specific topics and understand um certain things on ah whatever degree of level and stuff. And that's got me to where I am now. But it's interesting to think, well, for all of us in our careers, where we're going to be in the next five, 10 years, right, we could be doing different roles, we could be in different spaces and, um you know, different companies and stuff like that. um I might be a
00:40:40
Speaker
an accountant. I'm stealing that from chat. I'm going to somebody said in chat, that you're an accountant. No, somebody said that. I can't remember. that I can't remember who said it. Sorry, guys. um But somebody said game devs have like accountants that work in house. So like you could be an accountant and work in the games industry. Yeah. Respawn had one. And then i he turned into he became a producer. Okay, because they turned into Godzilla or something like. You went from accounting to video game production. There he was filling out some forms, having a meeting with a client, but he turned into a. so credit ah These numbers don't line up. They're really upset. and rageous Let me ask you guys something. do Do you feel like you are, were you, are you at your end game now? Like, do you feel like.
00:41:37
Speaker
This is it. This is your jam. No, I feel like one of the things I struggle with the most is that I've just spent the last five years of my life. Effectively full time doing what doctorate students do, which is hyper researching specific topics. Yeah. i Like, you know, to do their doctorates. And I've just done that in the sense of my YouTube videos are my essays of like, here's my dive into this one thing. Not all of them. Some of them are just like. Mimi bullshit of me just trying to make people laugh, but I'm always trying to educate while I while I do my show and What I struggle with most is I am currently working on my two two games simultaneously as my first fully shipped projects and I feel like I need to have that under my belt for me to feel like You know, I'm currently talking the talk and
00:42:33
Speaker
but I wanna walk the walk as well. And not a lot of people say that stuff, you know, I have friends, well, like you guys and um other friends in the industry, like I was speaking to, I can't name the studio, a lead level designer at studio, we were um out for food the other day and we were talking about, you know, me working in games and um how I'm in the process of shipping my first view and how some people might not take what I say seriously because of that. And ah he was like, And this is not me trying to like inflate my head ego, but he says, I think he thinks that in the end run, I could be a better level designer and designer because of what I'm doing, because I'm constantly expanding and trying to gather as much knowledge as possible rather than just working on one specific thing for five years, um which I appreciate. I think there are pros and cons to both.
00:43:31
Speaker
Um, but he kind of helped me come to the understanding is like, I'm just taking a different route into design and like how to expand that. So I guess the end game for me is just, I want to get the games I'm working on out. And then I want to move. I still want to keep doing my show. So everyone who loves my show, I'm not like planning to get rid of it or anything, ah but I want to do game dev stuff more full time because at the moment, YouTube is my full time job. um yeah And I'd like to have game dev be my full time, full time thing. And then design delve is the thing I work on, you know, on the side, which because at the moment it's in reverse.
00:44:15
Speaker
And um yeah, I want to move into that and make my dream jobs and expand and give being a privileged space where hopefully the games that I'm working on now do well enough where we can expand the companies to hire more people into the industry and give them their dream jobs and stuff like that. So that's where I want to get to um is just. Who'd have thought game dev takes a long fucking time, you know, it's, you know, takes a long, long time. Are you guys where you, are you guys at your end game or are you, what are you, what are you thinking?
00:44:50
Speaker
and mikey ah No, I'm what where I'm at now is is cool and interesting and different like doing the consulting and contracting thing I've been I've been enjoying it It's um, it it could become an endgame I guess but I don't I don't feel like it is right now Like I think that there is another like more full-time Dedicated opportunity there and in the future for me. I don't know what it is looks like or what it'll be but but i that's kind of like if i had to answer now i see that ah i i feel like
00:45:27
Speaker
what I'm doing now though at the same time ah is pretty cool. I could see myself just like committing to this because you know getting to work with a lot of different teams, a lot of different projects definitely keeps the work interesting. It's challenging because every team every project is different as opposed to just like you're saying Jay like being the person who's done the same thing for five years over and over over on like a single project because now we have really long post release cycles, right? And the I'm enjoying that aspect of it. But like if I had answered now, my gut says, like no, I'm going to get back into something eventually. That's kind of where my my head is at now. And that would probably be like you know in in design or ors something like that, something high level, creative director, game director, something like that. It'd probably be there. But I don't know. I'm definitely a guy who
00:46:17
Speaker
I really want to work on, and this sounds like a ah people are going to hear this might think, well, duh, but it's true. like I want to work on projects that I'm passionate about ah first and foremost. Well, first and foremost is like having a good team, 100%. And then second is something that I can get excited by. ah So far, that's been a lot of FPS. I'm very passionate about that genre, ah specifically like tactical FPS and stuff, not exclusively. So I'm into all kinds of ah FPS styles and like maybe there's a difference within that. Maybe there's something outside of that. But no, um I'm certainly not. Darn it. It's crazy to say I've been doing this for over 10 years. It's true. But i'm not i want I want to keep doing new stuff. that that's Maybe it's ah this is a part of my ah personality I try to like ah ah challenge, right? Just like anybody should, I think.
00:47:06
Speaker
it's ah It's part of what brought me to move you know to Europe and and live in Amsterdam for a few years. I moved to Canada, moved here to l LA. Trying new stuff is is fun. I try to challenge myself to do it. What about you, Tina? Um, no, absolutely not where I want to be right now. Uh, absolutely not. Why? Absolutely. no Um, so when I was working on AAA games, um,
Challenges in Game Development
00:47:32
Speaker
my first AAA game, I think hit me the hardest with crunch. I did like seven day work weeks for months on end.
00:47:40
Speaker
to the point where I didn't even know how the president of the United States got elected. I didn't know who the president was until after the fact, because I missed all of that. um I would like drive down the street and see billboards for movies. And I was like, what the hell's that? I had no idea. It was like going into a cave and not having friends or family. And then realizing when you're done, like, holy shit, like I just lost years. And I don't think like, what ah what am I? ah dude Yeah, it was rough. um And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Like when you get into like hardcore crunch, like it's, it snarly um it's It's not. And it used to be really bad. Like it was even worse than it could be now. But I think that sounds yeah the tail end of like the worst being acceptable.
00:48:32
Speaker
which is unfortunate. I wish I never experienced that, but I do appreciate why I had to do it with the people around me, but I wouldn't recommend it. um So yeah, I don't know. I feel like I've been, I was crunching for a long time. I crunched on um Apex, crazy story. um I was like producing 75, 76 devs. There was like three of us in production. Oh, only 76. It was rough um There was like no pretty formatting in any of the like schedules I had because there was just no fucking time um Which is great for me now because I use that format everywhere I go if you know I went somewhere else and it's easy to update but um, I had like a I probably shouldn't say this publicly but um People would be unhappy, but I don't care. It's my life. ah I had like a mini stroke during development and
00:49:27
Speaker
where I had like bell posse. And I remember like being rushed to the hospital by my husband, cause like the left side of, no, the right side of my face just wasn't working and my right arm and leg were just like gone. Like I wasn't drinking water. I wasn't eating enough. And I was in the yeah ER. And I remember over the like speakers, they said, ah we have a stroke victim in the unit. And I remember looking at my husband going like, I hope they're okay. I didn't know what they were talking about. I ended up being fine. Nothing. Nothing. It's a mini stroke, which means like there was no like blood flots or anything like that. So it's all good, but I needed to rest. I rested for like two days and then went back to work and then finished the game. Two days? Yeah, I would not recommend that again. That was still a stroke, even if it was a small one. I think it was stress and it was really bad. Would you believe me if I told you I also know a game developer who had Bell's policy?
00:50:28
Speaker
a No, I mean, I would believe you, but yeah, it's, like yeah, I don't know much about it, but like the stress of this, the the body really does show. It's kind of stupid to be honest with you. Like sometimes I think about it. I think this is just dumb. Cause ultimately we make toys for adults, right? Nobody's going to fucking die, but, uh, but we still do it. like That's a whole other conversation. really yeah anyway I just thought that was interesting when you showed that. it Yeah, yeah no I think it happens to a lot of people that just don't talk about it because you know when you're I think when you're surrounded by a bunch of people that are working just as hard, you feel like you don't want to let them down. So that's what drove me to continue working. And then you know when i when I was on God of War,
00:51:10
Speaker
um I just didn't want to, let I just didn't want the team to feel like I wasn't pushing enough. And it was during COVID. So it was so much easier to crunch because you were at home already. So, and there was nothing else to do. So I would work like 12 to 16 hour days because what else am I going to do? I watched like 13 seasons of Supernatural. ah so You know, but by the time I decided, you know what, like I'm getting on the older side, I really just want to have a family and stuff. Took a break last year in March from my job.
00:51:50
Speaker
to have kids. Now that my kids are older, I'm ready to get back into work. But like, lo and behold, there was like a huge wave of layoffs. And now when I do interviews with a few people, um the few that I've had, um a lot of the recruiters are like, so what happened during layoffs with you? Like, tell us your story. Like, I wasn't laid off, ma'am. I just got knocked up. just ah It's a yeah, no, I definitely want to get into games. I just I will honestly say that the feeling of trying to get back into games during the like mass layoffs this year and last year is it is almost as difficult as when I was out of college trying to figure out what I want to do.
00:52:32
Speaker
because there's so many people vying for the same jobs. And I'm not saying this to dissuade anyone. I just want to give a truth of like what's really happening right now. um you know there's a lot of from What I'm feeling from some recruiters is a lot of anxiety and pressured and not want to hire people that were laid off, which frustrates the hell out of me. Like, a lot of the times people are laid off. It's not because their skill set isn't there. It's because some guy at the top or guys and gals at the top just made really bad decisions with budget and time and everything. And like, you know, how to cast people aside for shareholders. um So it's it's frustrating because, ah you know, i I feel like I have to start from scratch.
00:53:23
Speaker
which is fine. I'm going to go next. Yes. man it's It's crazy. That's a shitty feeling too. Yeah. And the other side of the coin, which not, not many people at all know is that um my husband is in video games too. I met him working on Call of Duty, but he's now a, he's now a studio head. So when I want to work on chairs, there's a lot of people that are like, well, I don't know if I want to work with you because your husband works on a shooter and we're a competitor. And it makes people comfortable. Yeah. Like pushing trade secrets to them. But I never have. Right. Like when I worked on Apex, he was working on war zone when I worked on, you know, actually, that's probably the only thing I have. But, you know, like, yeah, nothing happened. And we didn't know what we were working on. So.
00:54:18
Speaker
That's, that's another weird element too, is when you have like two people living in the same household that work on different games and you can't talk about it. Like that's, that's weird. There's, there's definitely a bit of a ah black operations component to to put it with a fun, exciting phrase, even though it's not fun and exciting. There's a lot of game dev stuff that happens in the shadows that nobody fucking knows about. Like yeah all the games that you've played that say it was developed by this studio, you'd be surprised. There are probably some Ukrainians who worked on your game, probably some people in South America. is there's it's It's way more international and involved with other contractors than you think. And those people who contract on those games, they don't get the credit unless the game doesn't do well.
00:55:01
Speaker
then the fingers come out and you point. Now, obviously, like you know you can you can mitigate that with the contracts and stuff, but it does happen where like you know they'll get thrown under the bus. And if the game does well, then you'll never hear about it because the kind of why would the studio, the host studio say, oh, we yeah, well, we hired a contractor. They did a great job. No, they're going to take the notoriety for themselves. That stuff definitely does happen. And then when those contractors finally have like a game that they worked on and it goes public and gets announced, they want to post on socials and they want to say, Hey, I did this, this, and this for this game. And that's sad. It's mad. ive ah I have a story that you guys will sympathize with this. You probably have tons of stories where you're like, Hey, I want to say this, but I can't say specifics because it'll get me in trouble. um I was at a my uncle's like 10th wedding anniversary or something. and This was late last year.
00:55:56
Speaker
And I was talking to someone, um, he was just there, just a random guest and they were like, Oh, what do you do? And I said, Oh, I'm like, uh, I'm a YouTuber. I'm also a game designer. I do like game design content and stuff. And they're like, Oh, I'm, I'm a game dev. I was like, Oh, awesome. So we obviously immediately, uh, hit it off and we would just spend the entire evening together. so So what do you work on? and Like, Oh, I really have to be careful about how I phrase this. Um, they worked on a major, um, remake. of a game. And it was they're they're like an outsourced company. So the this game was handed to them. And they were like, hey, fix this and like make it make it better and do everything. I can't get go into too much more because people will figure out what I'm talking about. And they did work on it for years. And then a major company came in and said, actually, no, we're taking this and internal and just like took everything and just ran.
00:56:57
Speaker
is I was like, what is mad? And they were like, yeah, so ah working on something else now, but it's a real it's a real bummer that that major project got like taken away from us. like And you can't put in your portfolio that you did any of that work, right? Nope. Nope. And he was like, and this is why I'm being careful about what things are and stuff. He was like, yeah, i I can't even talk about it. I shouldn't be talking to you about this. like And I was like, I, obviously I, I won't say any details, but major project got taken away from them, like, just like snatched out of nowhere. Kind of like how the layoff happened. Everything's fine until it's not. And then it's the perils of working in, you know, the, the AAA space. Sometimes a lot of the decisions get made for you by higher ups and you're not informed until it's too late. Yeah. It's like the beauty and curse of not having to worry about the financial side of game development.
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah. I've got another, uh, uh, your vague story reminds me of a story that I will also tell vaguely Jay of the, um, I'm trying to figure a way to phrase it. may but the main start bar over his eyes he can Get a light a caught cod black ops, uh, six, right. It's coming out soon. So this is, yeah this is going to be on theme, uh, or with the times, I guess so and the, uh, so one, one studio wanted to add this mode. Shit, this might be too. I'm trying to think of the best way to say it. I'm gonna go a little vaguer, just to be safe. Basically, you ah they wanted to do this content, and they were working within this brand. ah Eric, he just did it.
00:58:34
Speaker
Should I, should I modulate my voice just wood brown i wanted to work on the project? um now I look evil. I'm about to, I'm about to kill someone. It looks like the bad guy in kingdom hearts. What do they call him? Breaking ah the NDA. Yeah, I better be careful. No, it's good. Basically, that it was ah it was a brand. It was a popular brand and they were going to do a game mode ah within the brand for one project and they're really excited about it. they they They had a pitch for it. I think they were going to do it. It was it was going to be all received.
00:59:11
Speaker
And then it didn't work out ah because the people that they pitched to, they're like, okay, this looks pretty good. Yeah, maybe in the future we'll do it. It was something like that, I think. And then eventually enough time passed where they came back to it and they were like, oh, we gave that to this other studio that's working on this other part of the brand. So they took their concept and just gave it to someone else. This thing that they were excited about. And they were kind of like totally within the rights to do that, right? Because they were the they were the people that made the call there within that brand. Scummy things happen. It's like, and, uh, Tina, I'm sure you've got lots of stories about things happening. girl How much time we got. I didn't want to circle back though. And like, and say that he are never really going to reach an end game necessarily in game development, because once you finish working on something, you're going to want to jump into something else.
01:00:08
Speaker
And whatever that something else is, whether it's at the same studio that you happen to be at or a new company, there's always new, um, I guess like challenges to face. Right. So what I long story short, I guess I want people watching this to realize that if you're going to get into game development, you may not like the game you're working on, but eventually you'll get there because there's always like a, a reset button. um
01:00:39
Speaker
Do you guys agree? Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of if if you're curious, if you like games and you're curious about like, you know, I think I might like to work in games. I previously I used to say try modding. That still applies. Try modding. See if it excites you. See if you're into it. Don't quit your day job. ah Provide for yourself, provide for your family, et cetera. ah But try that and see where it takes you. I don't know just like oh, I want to do 3DR Oh, I think I want to design levels sure. Oh, I want to do everything myself the tools and ever better ah they're They're better than they ever have been as I was saying earlier ah Just try and see where it takes you if if you get really passionate to keep going but just don't quit your day job and like be careful and remember that like
01:01:27
Speaker
It might sound strange to say because we're talking about getting into the industry, but it could just be a fun thing you do on the side because it's fun. Like that's real. It could be a thing that you do part time along with your full time job. Like I know plenty of people who did that. Then they got into games and there's other people that did that and then they just kind of stopped and they got their satisfaction from it. That might be a pass. So the, the, the end of that is basically to say, kind of like I was saying before, like just try it and see how it makes you feel. and and see where it takes you. don't Don't go in with like, it's okay to go in like having a goal, but it's also okay to go in without a goal and just experimenting and playing around. Everything you make early on is not going to be pretty. There's like something I like to latch onto whether you're doing art, sound, you know, design.
01:02:18
Speaker
The first thing you make is not going to be the masterpiece that sells a million copies on Steam, right? It's, it's a way for you. It's the same in any form of game development. You know, we prototype, we iterate. and we move towards the final project. Somebody doesn't just come in with the, I've got the best idea ever, or I've made the perfect character for um for our game. Like it's it's a process and you learning how to do the specific skills you want to do is to get into the industry is also a process and just allow that process to happen. Don't get frustrated and compare yourself to other people and what they're doing. You know, just trust in your own process and always strive to do better.
01:02:58
Speaker
And eventually you'll you'll get there, you know, just got to keep going. I think the other important factor or like fact that I want people to walk away with is that um not everyone in game dev knows what they're doing and what all the time. I've seen like the most talented developers and designers and engineers say, OK, but how do I tackle this or how do I do this in the engine or, you know, um What do I need to, how do I start this? So it's that was a huge eye-opening understanding for me. Because even if you spend all your time learning Unity or Unreal, when you go to major companies, a lot of the times they have their own proprietary tools. So you're just learning all over again. You're not going to know how to use their engine right away. So you know it's it's a learning curve. and ah
01:03:55
Speaker
I think knowing that really kind of calms any anxiety a lot of people have about making games, it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to ask for help around you. unless you're India, then it's like, damn, you're doing everything. will but but then But then you have the community. I mean, Jay knows better than better than us, Tina. But like you still have the community. You have other people. yeah A lot of those boomer shooter guys are are tight. Guys and gals are tight. And they they have their own communities. And they can reach out and say, hey, like, GZ Dooms, ah I don't get this part. Can you help me, please? Can you explain this? I think that happens a good amount. And I think the same is with them.
01:04:35
Speaker
any sort of like ah discord for for Unity or Unreal, or or they have their own internal channels right that you could post on. like There's there there's ah options there, but you're right. it's It's okay to ask for help, for sure. Yeah, we we reach out all the time. there was ah There was a thing we were doing with a couple shaders. um, in a project we're working on at the moment. And, um, it is a completely viable thing to just like, if we see, like, cause my Twitter is just gamedev. It, all it is is just cool gamedev shit and indie people posting, like get super excited about how someone's rendered the the floor tiling in their environment. I'm just like, Oh God. And I'm just like, have a massive conversation with them. It's completely viable. I like how you pantomime that feels good. Cause it's just, that's not what I'm like. It's just like, I guess so. I was, I've been playing the new, um, Elden ring DLC and I'm just going around, like looking at that, like rock textures and, um, how they've done that. And i'm like I'm like, oh, this is, this is insane, dude. This game's look crazy. to me The other day I was prepping for the DLC and I was like, man, so many people must work on this.
01:05:43
Speaker
Like coming from the indie space where like there's four people working on, uh, the, my primary project at the moment to think about Elden ring and like the hundreds and hundreds of people that are just working on like environment art. And I'm just like, what's the fuck? Anyway, where it from um I'm sorry. No, continue. oh no ni um What was it? I'm looking up from software now to see how many people worked there. How many people did work on it? But anyway, they, um, I on game dev, it's like in indie, it's a completely viable thing. If I see a shader that is very similar or, um, you know, a way of a substance designer, um, material that someone's made, and it's very similar to what like we're kind of aiming for in our game completely viable for me to just DM them and be like,
01:06:32
Speaker
Hey, fucking love your stuff. How the fuck did you do that? Like, that's incredible. And I've not met an indie dev yet who has not responded with the same amount of enthusiasm. Really? I think they're just happy that you're, you're like obsessed with that thing. And they're like, Oh, yeah, it's really cool, isn't it? I did it like this. Yeah, but they they share stuff all the time. It's way for me, it feels way less secretive. It's like, that's cool Oh, you're also making a thing that is has a similar style? Well, both our befi games can look pretty. Or them just telling us how they did it could save us months of R&D. But I don't think they're thinking like that. They just want to share. And that's what I really like. it's less um
01:07:18
Speaker
ah black ah black ops, you know, like, um, yeah and to the csis of that is like in if you make something really cool and fascinating, that's unique. A lot of the companies will say, we're going to copyright that. So they own it like the ping system in Apex. Yeah. Yeah. right Yeah. It's a different world. yeah I looked it up. um Let's take guesses before I say want it. Well, how many work on at from software? How many work from software? Yeah, this is as of June 2023. So where are they located? They're in Japan, right? Yeah. What what city? ah Probably Tokyo. Yeah, they're headquartered in Tokyo. Who knows what else they have. Maybe they're outsourcing out here too. But but yeah.
01:08:08
Speaker
I'm going to say one 50. Okay. yeah I reckon, I reckon it's way more than one video. I reckon it's, I reckon it's it because we've got to think they're working on elman gal Eldon rank and whatever. The next thing is that they're two. Am I right? Everybody? No. no so they have three games going on one so There's a couple people out there who just heard me say that and they're like on their phone, on the the bus or whatever. And they just perked up and they're like, Oh, Chrome house. That's, that's a different story. Three games and development at once.
01:08:48
Speaker
They so they Elden Ring came out. Yes. They haven't a team internally working on the DLC, which just came out. Yes. what Was it six months to a year ago? They released armored car, armored core six. So that's another team working on a complete game and simultaneous internal team working on the next project, which will be Elden Ring to bubble on to the berserk game, whatever. So they have potentially four teams working on major projects. And bear in mind, it's probably two running at full speed parallel. So like when they're done with the last game, they start on Elden ring two or whatever. Cause I don't think armored core six had the cool Elden ring team on it. I think it was a separate team at the very least. Yeah. Okay. That changes my answer. I have the ability.
01:09:44
Speaker
What's your informed answer? 350, says Jay. No, I reckon they have 600 plus. What? Okay. know Or just in Tokyo. Globally with outsourcing. I'm going to, I'm going to prices rate this shit and say 501. i would you it all
01:10:05
Speaker
397. All right. no no according to wi According to Wikipedia, 397. So much. Well, They have to add the outsource art or something. They have to. They could easily outsource. I mean, I don't know what the, I'm very curious about Japanese gaming culture. It's very much. Oh, it's so different to us. I'd love to have this be a topic and for us to have a, uh, if he works in Japan. Can I share what I know so far? yeah Okay, so when in in the United States at least and I'm pretty sure it's similar in the UK in some ways where um There's not really necessarily a full-fledged out plan of attack for a game, right? So it's always like prototyping iterating Experimenting drawing stuff out starting new things right and there's no real um Like you can't really plan for that
01:10:59
Speaker
Um, easily in, in game. ne So that's why there's, there tends to be crunch, right? When last minute decisions are made that are going to impact the whole game and you got to catch up in Japan from the devs I've talked to. It's a lot more a thoughtful and meticulous in the plan and strategy. I don't necessarily believe that they prototype as much. So it's like making games as a service for them. So instead of a designer in America for instance saying like, I want to do grappling.
01:11:32
Speaker
You know, like grapple hook like like this game, like let's try that out. And here's a couple of things I don't want to do with it. um And then engineers like, OK, I'm going to like give you this feature and I don't really know what you want, but here you go. um In Japan, if you say I want a grappling hook, the designer already has like a design spec. They know what enemies it's going to be used against, what kind of environments it'll be used in. So that's all like pre-packaged, right, neatly. And they say, here you go here, engineer. Can I have what I need to do all these things? So the engineer is not really like guessing where this is going to go for the game. They already know like the limitations of it. And then they just like deliver the the future.
01:12:18
Speaker
That kind of makes sense with with the Japanese games that that I play because I get a sense of a meticulous design. Yes. That's very much this simple, elegant mechanic here will will make me interact with the rest of the game in a way that is so on theme and and and fits everything. And I need to be ah careful or judicious with this mechanic versus this other mechanic. like It just feels very ah balanced with everything. And yeah that approach you just described, I could see leading to that kind of impression. Like that's how Nintendo works for sure.
01:12:57
Speaker
Um, I think it can lead to issues. I think sometimes that mean not all games that come, like you know, come, come out from Japan, but to for some of them, that kind of meticulous, um, approach can lead to stagnant kind of design philosophies and doing stuff because slowness to what the genre has done is what my next videos on, um, actually to to do with FromSoft games and Monster Hunter and using um iFrames and stuff like that and how they're using them and how some of it might be because that's just what the industry has done and that's what players expect, which is not to say that's a bad thing.
Cultural Approaches in Game Development
01:13:38
Speaker
Um, and how like that kind of experimentation and doing something different. We don't see a lot from, um, you know, the East, uh, from game dev stuff. I think the West, the Western kind of, um, approach, like you were saying, Tina is a lot more, shoot from the hip blackck american like Um, hit your prototype in the back of my truck. It's what do you want? Like, what do you want as a player? Like, what what do you kind of want? Yeah, and um it's wild. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to get someone i'm from Game Freak and to because I'd really like to get a look at what Game Freak internally is like, because from an outsider's like dev but perspective, I'm like, man, this I think they've got issues and they need tissues. You know, hey, I like that.
01:14:36
Speaker
the government heard that it's No, I did hear it in Austin Powers, but it wasn't plural. yeah Michael Caine says, if you've got an issue, here's a tissue, but I like your version better. Yeah, i've got mine's plural. I've i've doubled the stakes. But yeah, i i'd i'd love I'd love to get like, Hey, if you're listening and your you're a dev working in Japan and have extensive knowledge of You know, the games industry in Japan, we'd love to have you on. Oh, that'd be sick. And if you work on the Resident Evil franchise, then we should hang out. i run ah that That fucking franchise, um I never understood I was that big of a Resident Evil fan until recently, yeah but they display a lot of the things I think that we're that we're talking about.
Game Localization Challenges
01:15:20
Speaker
and You know, we could do a whole episode on international game development.
01:15:26
Speaker
Yeah, or even like features or or like ah expected features that people like in the, you know, in Europe and America would assume work a certain way may not like come across as easily understandable in like China, for instance. Now, like there's coins just like in a map and you're like, oh, I'm going to go to that and collect it or rings, you know, like in Sonic, for instance, you come up with a game in China. They may not know I got to go and collect that. Yeah, there was- Because they didn't grow up with the same games and titles that we did where that was expected. I don't know how true this is. When I was learning UI at uni, my teacher was like, we were basically doing basic menu UI and um interaction costs and blah, blah, blah. And like B was our back button to back out of a menu. And they said, and I could be completely wrong about this. And if I do have somebody from India in the chat who's an avid gamer and
01:16:24
Speaker
is willing to correct me, please do, because I would love to. ah here They said that in India, B isn't back. And it's like, they use a different button that they assume is to go back in menus. So you have to like, localize your controls per region. we on there Just because B can change, right? Between like switch X-Box. Yeah. So they were saying, Oh, there you go. Thank you. Yeah. So normal is normal be back with an Indian person. Yeah, I can't remember because this was like eight years ago. So I can't remember what they specifically said to key press wise. It might have been like triangle or something like which is also connected with menuing and stuff like that. And so it's like that's a real thing. Localize menus. You have to do that in AAA games too. Mental. Yeah. Mental. Absolutely mental.
01:17:24
Speaker
The hardest, the hardest is when, um, you get into like, uh, I would call like the S tier of game dev for UI, which is supporting Thai or, um, Arabic because their language goes. Was it, uh, right. Is it right to left? Yeah. Right to left. Yeah. Right. to left yeah or left or right. I don't know. ah It's one or the other. I'm like dyslexic right now, but um it's the exact opposite of what you would expect in Western languages. So everything is like just that more difficult and complex to try to, um ah you know, design for menus.
01:18:03
Speaker
It's crazy. Because the placement's different. So that I think ah just to give people perspective, when um I think it was Infinite Warfare came out in Arabic for the first time ah for that franchise, ah I was on the code team and production wise it took, I want to say like nine to 12 months with ah four or five UI engineers alone, not even UI design. Working full time on just that. Yep. You got to flip everything. Yeah. Wow. Cause you know how you have menus and it's like really pretty placement on the left sometimes. sure But nine to 12 months for for one language, four to five. It's the complexity of the menus and like dialogue too, right? Like where all that is in God, you you have create a class.
01:18:58
Speaker
like myy is there Like the menu system is just like intense. Yeah. No. And that's the job. I hear you. That's the job, guys, to everyone in chat. That is a specific job, like translation
Listener Support and Community
01:19:10
Speaker
and, you know, UI engineers that are doing those things. That's the job. if you If you're bilingual, we need you to help translate our video games. and That's a real thing. Yeah. There you go. Good to see you guys. Do we have any questions? Let me check. Yeah. Let me check the the time. Yeah. We'll, we'll go see if we got any cheat. I've got, I think we've got a couple don't knows and we'll go for him. Cause I know Mike, you've got a hard out shortly. Yeah. I got time now. I'm, I'm, I'm good on time for a while. Yeah. Um, just to remind everyone that all of your wonderful donations go directly to supporting shows like this.
01:19:49
Speaker
Um, along with every other show on, Oh God, I was just about to say that the, ah the, uh, the, yeah. And I was going to say the, the, the outlet we used to work at, but, um, i what second wind it goes to the sport, every, every show, the second winning leading design delve, you know, fully ramblimatic cold take any show you enjoy and dev heads and all our podcast. So thank you. Um, and we will go through these, right. Meow. Let me. I've been playing a shitload of doom lately, like doom one and two modded. Are you, are you, what is in like OG doom or are you talking about eternal and OG doom? 1994 doom one and doom two, I think. How are you finding it?
01:20:31
Speaker
It's fun. I'm playing with a mod. I've been obsessed with it called hideous destructor. It's like a tactical survival simulation game. Like the kind where you need to like physically take off your armor and then scan yourself and give yourself a blood pack if you're low on blood, treat burns with a special button, treat gun wounds with another, or apply your trauma kit and like apply a numbing agent and then saline to clean the wound. It's nuts. and OG Doom pull out a magazine and then individually put bullets into each magazine and then back into the gun. I love it. It's it's crazy. That doesn't go with well with my run and gun. No, it might not be for you. I'm all about like, I like pretty much all FPS, but i but I, you know, obviously I'm passionate about tactical shooters and the hardcore shooters. And this is just something that I discovered recently. So the the Doom helmet fits perfectly for me, even if it's 2016.
01:21:24
Speaker
Jesus, i I'm gonna check that out after this. That sounds amazing. I'll link you. John Brooks with 10 quid, thank you so much. Says, good afternoon, all. Jamai, hope you and Ludo are coping with this sudden heat. It hasn't got hot all of a sudden, isn't it? Question, if you had ah if you had not got into being devs, what careers do you think you'd have? What do you think you guys would be? I, before this, like while
Alternative Careers and Magic Industry Insights
01:21:50
Speaker
I was doing the writing and voiceover thing, I was working in a restaurant. I was also doing ah fireworks, like working with explosives. I would do fireworks shows ah in parts of New Jersey, which was interesting.
01:22:03
Speaker
ah Neither of those really interested me that was kind of stuff on the side i really don't know um i might have i might have been listed i might join the military cuz i had a lot of friends that were doing that. they I had some marine friends who wouldn't have let me become a marine it was no mike do not do that. ah but I don't know, maybe I would have done something a little like the the Air Force or something. Security forces ah might have gotten involved in that as like a test to see if I wanted to do something more like a first responder. Maybe not even necessarily law enforcement, but that kind of drew me ah because they didn't want to like sit behind a desk doing something monotonous.
01:22:43
Speaker
ah And I was interested, like my parents worked in medicine. My dad's a primary care mom's a psychotherapist. So I think I was drawn to doing something that helps people or is like involved in and and ah on your feet a little bit at least or at least specialized knowledge. I do sit at a desk all day, I guess now, but I stand as you can see. And, uh, and, uh, but at least I'm, you know, I'm doing stuff that I'm, uh, more interested in. That might've been a path for me. It really depends. I did want to, I did want to start working at that time after college. So that might've been something I did. What about you Tina? Looking at your child. That's so cute. Oh, I love that. So docile.
01:23:23
Speaker
I was studying for the LSAT, which is the test you need to take to get into law school here in the US. s um But I also and it was really into fashion in a superficial way, but I guess all fashion is superficial. um So I probably would have fallen into one of those two categories. um If I went the law school route, I was really interested in international law, and I don't know what I would have done with that. Travel somewhere else maybe? What's international law like? um
01:23:55
Speaker
Good question. um I think I wanted to take it because ah it was going to give me an opening into studying whatever reason I was like fascinated by canon law and a canon lawyer told me to do that. Canon law is just like what the Catholic Church uses to validate if their beliefs, I guess, or the debate beliefs against other religions, a canon lawyer. um i I took religious studies and that was my minor. So I was just fascinated by it. I don't, I mean, we, that's a whole other thing. I don't necessarily agree with everything and women aren't really allowed in the Catholic church. I was just more fascinated by their library and not having access.
01:24:40
Speaker
That's super interesting. Yeah. It was just like a weird thing, but international law, I think it could have gone in a bunch of different routes where you study like immigration reform, uh, helped companies deal with like having their businesses in other places and stuff like that. Um, that's like, well, someone in the chat says cannon law with two ends and then ah an emoji of a bomb. I know a little bit of canon law. i know and I know in Jersey, at least back when I did it, ah you can't fire an eight-inch shell out of a tube unless you do it electronically from a certain distance. Anything under eight inches ah you could do with a flare by hand. I think that was the law. Something like that. That's the canon law I know.
01:25:28
Speaker
Uh, no, I don't know. I'm, I'm still fascinated by fashion. So that's like my side, my side, uh, interest right now when I'm not talking about games. So they don't, there's no Venn diagram really of like where fashion and game development really overlap other than like DLC. So designing. Yeah, it's skin. isn Yeah. What about you, Jay? Um, yeah, speaking of, uh, the Vatican's libraries that are inaccessible, I'd probably be doing what I was doing before I got into game dev, which is, um, go back to being a professional magician. So I used to be a magician.
01:26:07
Speaker
but hey know but Did everybody see what Tina just rudely did? No, no, no. Collect yourself. It burns. Oh, I wonder why I burnt. That's what you get. That's what you get. I find a little bit in my hammock, Tina. Okay, here it is. So, Jay. Yeah. You were saying something about your passion and a potential career for you before somebody interrupted you. I know. No, tell me why it is. I used to be, Tina. Yeah.
01:26:45
Speaker
I used to be that way. Do you know what that intonation was? So teacher like, I love it. Please continue. I know. I know. I can't get rid of it. Um, I used to be professional. She swallowed her lips, like trying to stifle it all. I'm not going to laugh. I'm done too. I'm done. Collect yourself. Collect yourself. See if you can do this. Okay. I used to perform.
01:27:14
Speaker
Magic.
01:27:17
Speaker
would you Okay, I'll give Tina some credit. If you're going to build it up like that, or you're going to get a laugh. Yeah, but yeah I used to. i Tina, I used to perform. Magic. Thank you. I'm sorry. You see your face what kind of magic. I'm sorry.
01:27:43
Speaker
I used to perform.
01:27:47
Speaker
i so This is a good question. remember I you so just was not expecting that. I used to perform close up, uh, like kind of street magic. I used to do this thing. When you dip, when you, you either perform on a stage or you do stuff called table hopping, which is where you go. yeah Table to table performing, you know, events, hope yeah like card games and stuff or card stuff. Yeah, like car specifically card magic and stuff like that. yeah yeah was I was in the magic circle. I was like, it was my job. Did you know that? ah ah dietine yeah I was going to say that the magic castle, you know what the magic castle is here. in a It's owned by um Randy Pitchford, the gearbox. ah Was he a studio head or founder? I think he was. I thought he owned it.
01:28:39
Speaker
He bought it. He recently bought it. I'm pretty sure he does. Cause I think he, I remember like a video we talk about owning Duke Nukem and yeah, he's, I was at a bar and he was just like doing a card game. I'm like, what is this? This is amazing. I like how you called it a card game. I'm sorry, magic. Magic. Can you like, did you have, did you have like a? No, no, no, no, no. I, okay. like So what Eric is putting me to do now. What Eric is putting me to like, there are three forms of magic. There's close up. and There's close up. There's stage and furniture magic. They're, they're free kind of furniture. Furniture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like everybody goes.
01:29:29
Speaker
So close up is the stuff you're used to, the stuff with cards, coins, you know, rings and stuff like that. A sleight of hand stuff. It's all very close. You can do it in person um at any time, basically. like Then there's stage magic, which is soaring people in half and fire and, you know, that kind of stuff, ah which I don't like at all, really. And then there's furniture magic, which is what ah you would describe as like David Copperfield or Um, you know, people in Las Vegas who make cars disappear or, you know, um, do those crazy things. We in magic, we call it furniture magic. Cause you're doing stuff with big objects like furniture. I see. like Okay. You require teams of people and sets to be able to do furniture magic. I was funny. because the the Kind of magic with the most sizzle and bombastic stuff is the one with the most mundane name.
01:30:24
Speaker
Mm hmm. It's interesting. Anyway, sorry. Continue. Yeah. I was like when he said furniture, I was like IKEA magic. Like you go to IKEA and you're just like, holy crap. And you know exactly what you want and you arrive there immediately. Yeah. The IKEA magic is going in IKEA and leaving without buying something. That's the. but Nobody's ever done it. Nobody's ever done it. But yeah, I was very much a close up magician. I all of this magic bullshit. I'm very, I'm not against it, but i I find it kind of corny. I just as a kid was obsessed with sleight of hand and concealing and like just the art of sleight of hand. And so I dedicated myself to it for I think 12 years. That's cool. I did it. 12 years.
01:31:12
Speaker
Yeah, not professionally for 12 years. I studied it since I was like, I even, you can't really see it, but I have like an entire display up here, which is just like all of my magic books and cards I've collected. Yeah, we could see it a little bit. Yeah. What's the difference between amateur magic? And professional magic. like your yeah tro Okay. Yeah. You do it. You get paid to do it. That's basically it. Like and it's you're paid at events to do it and stuff like that. Like, wait, wait, wait, I'll show you something.
01:31:46
Speaker
I have a deck of cards. Oh, shit. Magic. Oh, my God. Magic. He produced it. Someone in the chat said something really funny. I worked at an IKEA. The magic is gone now. That she couldn't. That one. That one teeter is drinking. I need to drink now. Oh, man. I'll see you. I'll see you. OK. Can you see my hands? Yes. Yeah. Do some magic, please. Wait. I didn't see any red cards. Oh, red cards. Okay. I see it now. Okay. Wait, this is a real magic. There's no red cards. Okay. I was going to do some like little flourishes. Very nice. Very nice. Are you counting cards? There's 56, right? Whoa, that's good. Flourishing. I thought there's 52 cards in a deck. 52. Yeah. No, it doesn't need to be thick card.
01:32:42
Speaker
No, I don't do it anymore, but I used to. um But I'm not the type of person so like a lot of times when you meet people who are or were magicians at any opportunity, they'd be like, let me show you as Tina would say, let me show you a card game.
01:33:02
Speaker
I can do a card game for you if you want. I'm not really, I i obsessively studied it um and practiced it for years and years and years and years, did it professionally for a short while, but I'm not the type of person to just be like, oh, let me show you some tricks just for fun. Like I, the guys I studied um game design with at uni, we were on our third year of uni and um I had been a professional magician for like a few years at that point. And none of them knew I did magic because I just never brought it up. And somebody had a deck of cards and I shuffled them just like, not like I did there, but I just shuffled the cards and handed them back to them. They were like, oh, you can shuffle really well. That's cool. I was like, yeah, I'm a magician. They're like, fucking what? Oh, it's a perfect discovery. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I'll show you some things. But like, I find the people who are like, let me show you a trick. Let me show you a card game.
01:33:55
Speaker
Um, no offense to them. I, I find it a little bit insufferable. Like, not everyone wants to see magic, you know, not everyone wants to, you know, see card games. So I tend to just be like, if people know I can do it and they want to see something, they'll ask. I don't need to like walk around a bar being like, hello, what do you like to see in a card game? you well we Well, I request it. I wouldn't be mad if he did that. that's No, but no, see, you guys now know that I can do it. So when we meet up in person, you can say, Hey, Jay, show me a card game. And I will. And if you don't have a deck of cards, you can magically produce like will coju them. Like like a mage with water and wow. Yeah, yeah.
01:34:46
Speaker
Good. Yeah. i was It was a whole thing. I was. Yeah. Part of the magic but magic circle, which is a huge thing in England. um It's. Yeah, it's man. It's. Yeah, I miss it. I i just never get you have a name like a magician name. Yeah, James. Most people call me that. Oh, James. James. My magic name is James. No, I don't have a magic. i said it like This is the thing. I don't have like, I didn't work. than the dish I didn't like James out my ass or anything like it's just like. I was, I, well, I like to think I was, and still am good with cards. I'm very good at card sheeting and sleight of hand and concealing things. All but tricks I would do would just be like, I'm going to do something and you're not going to be able to see it. And that's how my dreams go. They're not like, to I'm pulling a card out of the ether. My favorite trick um is.
01:35:40
Speaker
you could name a card and name an area in the room and that card will be there in that spot. What? yeah Like you there you hid them there previously or something? or No, he can't. He's a magician Tina. He can't, I can't reveal it. Well, no, I can't reveal it on our podcast to like our thousands of listeners. But maybe if we're having a drink in LA at some point, I can divulge some secrets, but no, I wouldn't hide it there previously. You could freely name a card. It's not like mentalism forcing them to say a thing and freely name somewhere in the room and the card will be there.
01:36:17
Speaker
And it's an extremely difficult trick, extremely difficult, and requires some kind of nutty sleight of hand. But I practiced it for for a long long long, long, long, long, long time. And I got very good at it. um But yeah, the the best thing, ah we'll get off magic in a second. ah This first time I ever went to the magic circle, assuming everyone was going to be really uptight and secretive. um but The magic circle is basically ah ah ah but a boys club for magicians to trade secrets and stuff like that. And you have to, there's a vetting process to get in and stuff. um So I went there and ah there was this trick I could do, which was um you could name a card and then it would be an inside um your wallet. So
01:37:02
Speaker
You'd name a card, I'd say open your wallet and it would be in there. What? It's a very common trick and I could do that one. And then um it requires a load of stuff and I obviously know how it's done. And the other, I did it to this magician and he was like, oh, that's really cool. And he was like, um check your wallet. And then I opened my wallet and then that card that I put in his wallet was in my wallet. And I was like, how the fuck did you do that? And I thought to myself, dude, I'm going to be obsessing over this because I know I have like, I know all of the slights. I know all of the things. Right. And I had no idea how he did it. And I was like, I'm going to be obsessing over this for years. And he's never going to tell me. And I was like, Ocean's 11, all these heisters tricking each other or something.
01:37:50
Speaker
He did it and then he went, right. Uh, did you like that? And I said, yeah, that was awesome, dude. Oh, I'm going to be obsessed with that. And he was like, so here's how you do it. And he immediately told me how to do it. Well, that's cool. Because we were in the magic circle. So it's all about sharing what you do when you're in the circle. That's what like in the game dev is, is the magic circle. It's like the magic circle. We want to see how I did these magical shaders. Here you go. Whoa, that's amazing. Yeah, it's, um, so yeah, I'd probably be doing that. I kind of quit because the, it's very, very competitive. Um, and like bitchy, like, because there's only so many weddings and events that want magicians, right? oh i see Okay. Everyone's very like, uh, out for themselves to get their own work. They're happy to trade secrets and teach each other stuff, but to actually get the work, they'll fuck you over so that they get those that work rather than you.
01:38:45
Speaker
Um, yeah, I was like, fuck this, you know, fuck this industry. I'll go be a game dev. That seems less toxic. You know, way less card games, just games. so Yeah. and isn's That was like the shock of the show. What? I don't know what I was expecting. I just had a full mouthful of like hot water. Wake me up. and just Straight through your nasal passages. It's fine. It's fine. I commonly get that reaction all the time. Really? Well, I think it's cool. I think it's cool and very interesting. I don't spit more out of their nose by me saying, I used to be a magician. Yeah, Tina. Most people would have said, oh yeah, cool.
01:39:34
Speaker
and
01:39:38
Speaker
Another show we need to ask Tina what's so funny about that. Yeah, what was so funny about being a ah magician? It's not even that. It's just we were like having a serious conversation. So magic isn't serious, is it? It's not serious. Is my previous occupation not serious? You know what's messed up is I really have to go and I feel like I'm just failing. Well, well I guess for two quick donations or do you need to live right now? Yes, let's just do them. Yeah. It says I got to run just like Tina and Mikey, but it's been lovely as always listening in on everyone chatting. Have a great day off in a bit. Dark Jackal. And one more, just a casual spectator with $5 says I'm so sorry. Nowhere near on talk topic, but I'm curious, why do games have locked
Game Design Choices and Podcast Wrap-Up
01:40:30
Speaker
walking sequences instead of cut scenes like God of war?
01:40:34
Speaker
OK, rapid fire. Tina, go first. Yeah. Oh, I was going to say there there was a ah forced walk scene in the latest God of War because I was the producer on it. um Why? It's just a choice.
01:40:50
Speaker
Next question. Yeah, I don't know, it's just a choice. I would speculate, coming at it from my design perspective, get players familiar with the controls, even if it's as simple as just looking around with the camera, not need to worry about all the production that's involved as making a cutscene, just using a bunch of in-game stuff and being okay with that, because looking at it through that lens is basically just less expensive and it's a different pipeline that can be part of it too. And assortment of things, it's like, they really want you to see a specific, um, scripted moment and they want to control what the player does, but not necessarily take away full control. Yeah. They want to faint some level of interactability. Uh, you feel immersed like you're there, but, but carefully controlled Lee. Yeah. it can be They could definitely be done poorly.
01:41:42
Speaker
Yeah, like with anything. But yeah, I think, um, collectively everyone has to skedaddle because we've just got entrenched in our wonderful conversations about the industry. When you do hand things now, I'm just going to think.
01:41:57
Speaker
Okay, so i'm gonna I'm gonna finish the stream like this. Just on your hands. I can't do it. The magic's... I have to be magical. You can't help it. Okay, so thank you so much for watching, guys. Just a reminder. Patreon, if you want to support the the future conversations on card games and, you know, the industry crumbling, we come to Patreon. You know, it started with noses when I was talking about my nose stuff. ah I don't know. Well, a quake smells like whatever. i say Yeah. ah And then now we come back to your. breath
01:42:34
Speaker
but bad That's true. That's true. Uh, and then we're still wearing in your face team because we're talking about your nose and shooting water. There you go. There you go. So full circle. If you want to support this and any of the other shows are here on second wind. Consider checking out, I just realized I got the hat on. Consider checking out the Patreon and also Super Chats and all of that. um I'm not sure if we've got other streams. Oh yes, um Jack and Marcy are playing Elden Ring shortly. um I'm not sure exactly when, but they'll be doing that. um But yeah, check that out and thank you so much for joining. I've been Jay and this is Tina and Mikey. Bye bye. Thank you everybody, bye bye.