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From Assassin's Creed to House of the Dragon (ft. Abubakar Salim) | Dev Heads Podcast
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This week, the Dev Heads crew is joined by Abubakar Salim who has had a very interesting career being not only an actor for video games like Assassin's Creed: Origins, but is also a big-name Hollywood actor having starred in Raised by Wolves, House of the Dragon and more!
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Transcript
Introduction and Announcements
00:00:00
Speaker
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Meet the Hosts: Jay and Tina
00:00:33
Speaker
Oh, now I'm live. You just saw me mime a bunch of that. Hello. Welcome to dev heads. Take this energy. we' Focus on the ins outs and goings on a game development of hosts ranging from indie double to triple A. You've heard it before. Welcome guys. I'm Jay and I'm joined as always by my wonderful co-host Tina. Hi, I represent triple A. The trip and the double the trip.
00:00:59
Speaker
but you are a double no That insidious, but illegitimate. I'm the double.
Introducing Guest: Boob Castle
00:01:07
Speaker
And today we have a guest that I've been super excited to join us for a very long time representing, uh, the mega Renaissance man ah of of the universe, the, the infinitely talented at Boob Castle in welcome.
00:01:23
Speaker
thank you very much that was a renaissance man yeah i like that man all right cool right how much how many how many things do you do like yeah too many every time you you've got you've got so many fingers and so many pies i'm surprised you can you can juggle still yeah thanks so much for coming on No, thank you. No, really I've, I've again, like I've been, I've, I, I'm very excited to be here. Um, I'm really excited to kind of just, like, again, I love talking about games. I love talk about that kind of development element of it all. Like it's yeah the the knowledge needs to be shared. So thank you for having me.
00:01:57
Speaker
For sure, man. We should share with the listeners what you've worked on a little bit. So you are, is it Bayek? Bayek in Assassin's Creed Origins? Yeah, Bayek in in of Warcraft. You're in Diablo as well, right? Diablo IV? Yeah, in Diablo IV. Yeah, a yeah, yeah. Playing a priest, a good old priest who dies terribly in the cinematic, in the opening. um You are Eros in Stray God's Orpheus.
00:02:26
Speaker
That is so true, which is, you know, it's is one of the, that was one of those roles I remember doing and thinking to myself, like, oh yeah, people, people weren't, weren't, you know, it's it's a small indie project. No one's going to know about it. And then now I have to explain to everyone, yes, I i played the God of sex.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. um but yeah That's cool. And then, uh, you're, you're notable, uh, TV projects. So you were a father and raised by wolves, which inspired me to have better posture, by the way, really because of you and your co or your colleague, I started, uh, sitting up straight and trying to like get my back in a better position. Just get a, just get a latex suit. It helps.
Boob Castle's Diverse Roles and Inspirations
00:03:10
Speaker
It really does.
00:03:11
Speaker
but yeah you know that on Oh, you just put that suit on and everything gets tight. It's great. And then I loved watching you as Alan in house of dragons. was very Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah.
00:03:26
Speaker
Do you guys see what I mean about Renaissance Man? and Also, not to mention um your game that's that's just came out from you and your wonderful team. I'm also a game developer, yeah, which is very, very... I'm in um in the industry, which is which is very surreal, very, very surreal. You're in the industries, and yeah man.
00:03:46
Speaker
yeah um ah yeah yeah it's insane and we were We were talking just before this um about and you know just yeah getting to know each other a bit more. and news are are might mikey Mikey was ah talking about some of the projects he's worked on that yeah you seem very interested in. I played the amount of time and hours I spent on playing Black Mesa. is just I mean, like, look, man, I think it was at a time as well where, the you know, very much obsessed with sort of, you know, about the half-life kind of vibe and all that kind of jazz and all that, you know, and I i was going through my whole, like, the you know, first-person shoot of sort of vibe, trying as much as I can, everything I can. So, yeah, ah ah me and ah actually specifically the the writer ah on Telsa Kazara,
00:04:38
Speaker
would play a lot of Black Mesa. so Oh shit. Together. Like streaming to him. That's awesome. yeah so So I have to ask you, ah because like, ah I guess for context, people that are watching, I worked on Black Mesa. I did, ah I would say most of the writing for the HEC Marines and all the voice acting, like all of that's me, except for the Vox, like the intercom that comes in. I believe that was Chris Martins, but I have to double check.
00:05:02
Speaker
um What did you think of my performance there? And be honest, that's something I love to ask people about. It was good. It was great. It kept me in. Like, I think like the thing is, you know, this is the other thing, right? It's like when it comes to performance or or ah from my experience anyway of of of acting.
00:05:21
Speaker
as long as it doesn't take me out of the world, then it's fine. It doesn't have to be like, you know, Tom Hardy sort of like Troy Baker, like kind of level of masterpiece. Cause yeah, okay. That's great. But like the things that make those performances great are the nuances are the things that you wouldn't, you know, you'd, you'd hear a line and you, you would naturally turn around and you're like, Oh man, I never would have delivered it that way. Or I never would have heard of it that way. Like it's,
00:05:50
Speaker
You know, those are the things that really kind of make those like big performances sing, right? But ultimately, truly, a good performance keeps you in the world. It pays service to the world. And honestly, this is what I mean by like the writing and the performance was good, man. Like it kept me in. Didn't lose my mind. So it was, it was brilliant. It was, it was good,
Storytelling in Shooters and Game Development Insights
00:06:10
Speaker
man. I, I again,
00:06:12
Speaker
it really, really enjoyed it. So yeah, it's, it's, i'm I'm like, even like watching now, I can see like some of the live streaming right now and I'm watching exactly takingking me back taking me back. thank you man It means a lot to hear that. I think, um, yeah, I mean, look, what were they called in the original half-life grunts? They were just every other kind of guy in half-life one.
00:06:36
Speaker
I've ever been the writer of Half-Life 1, actually, Mark Leyva, at Steam Dev Days in 2014. And i was i I think I was talking to Black Mesa team at the time, but we weren't like working together. And I was always interested in, like because of my background, I guess, like that that ah military shooter perspective, and asking him, like so it's so interesting how you like characterized AGC Marines. What were you going for with your portrayal there? What branch were they from? What was this? And he kind of shrugged, and he went, we just kind of needed some bad guys.
00:07:02
Speaker
And I thought, OK, well, and when I joined the Black Mesa team, it was it was sort of a similar perspective where like they put all that you hear it, all this extra writing into the scientists, all this extra are writing into the guards. And I go, guys, like this, there's this, this, this, there's a third man here, so to speak. Why don't we characterize them? I have some I have some understanding of this work with Insurgency. Let me take a stab at it and they let me have a stab at it. And that's kind of what came out. And I'm happy that it didn't take you out of the world because that was the goal.
00:07:30
Speaker
Amazing. man to human eyes on the to i guess It was, it was great, man. It was, it's so good. And you know what? It made me really think as well. Like we need to make more, um, more sort of first-person shooters with like story and with like immersive elements to it. I think like, don't get me wrong. Like I think I i can actually remember the feeling of, I think it was modern warfare. Cause I never really played Call of Duty much, you know, funnily enough. Like it wasn't really the thing that connected me. Like I think my my my vibe was Halo or within Half-Life or, you know, if the I mean, I wouldn't really count that as a a shooter to per se. But like the thing is, it's like,
00:08:07
Speaker
I remember playing Modern Warfare for the first time and doing the the campaign and losing my mind because it was the first time I could really feel like I was in this, I think I was just in this character's shoes going through this journey, the story, the performances were great, you know, it just felt really, really cool.
00:08:24
Speaker
and i I feel like we're missing that now. You know what I mean? Like I feel like we're, we're, we're, we're kind of, we don't have that. Or if they do try and attempt it, it's like too clean. You know, it's, it's, it's, yeah we're not, go we're not going down the whole route of, um, Oh man, it's the game Corey made and like blew my mind. Uh, the line, um, it was black ops the line spec ops line yeah line. Oh my God. Like, you know, you need, like, I feel like I want those experiences again. Like I haven't had that kind of ah vibe and feel for a while. You're right. It's crazy. It's crazy. Cause I'm Tina who's troubleshooting right now. Cause you can't have a second wind stream about some, yeah some troubleshooting needs to be done. My monitor went black, but I can hear you. I don't know if you guys. Okay.
00:09:12
Speaker
You're at the bottom of your frame. You've been blacked out. Like Killroy in those World War II movies. But on stream, you're blacked out, so you've got time. But I want to look back to this. Because Tina, you've worked on some things that were just mentioned. Yes, they did. Tina, what have you worked on?
00:09:34
Speaker
I've worked on a call of duty. I started with a modern warfare three DLC and amazing that was a lot of fun. And then I did ghosts, which was difficult to work on, but I learned a lot cause that was my first full game from beginning to end.
00:09:50
Speaker
I worked on Call of Duty Infinite Warfare, which was sci-fi, which I think was underrated and didn't get enough great credit for what it was. It was. Great story. By the way, it's been getting God stories. Yeah. Yeah. And you know ah a lot of people thought, you know Call of Duty's copy and paste, and I'm like, sci-fi, everything goes out the window, how guns shoot, the the gravity, how people ah interact with each other and move through the world.
00:10:13
Speaker
And even the environments, right? Uh, doing sideways self world's pearl Mars, sound your hardcore mode in that game. I've, I've got a video planned on the hardcore mode in an infinite warfare is some of the best stuff I've ever seen. It's incredible. Oh, it's, it's insane. It's absolutely insane. No, it's cool. Yeah. But yeah, that's the thing. So like, yeah, I'm i'm really, I think if, if, you know, again, I'm, I'm one of those kind of, uh,
00:10:41
Speaker
I feel like I'm one of those creatives who who just wants to keep making really cool stuff and ah gets inspired by the ideas of like, you know, just just wanting to make, you know, cool shit.
Journey into Game Development and Personal Narratives
00:10:53
Speaker
So I definitely want to make like a ah first person sort of shooter, but like bring a level of an experience that feels like it it it it just challenges and changes ah again, the the the the vibe of the player. Like I'm all about kind of bringing as much of an immersive experience as I can to the stuff that I do. And it's, it's, it's been a very interesting process. like
00:11:19
Speaker
You know, again, going from the I kind of made a post about this like the other day, actually, I said, like, you know, four years ago, four, four, just over four years ago, I had no idea what it meant to make a game like no idea, um not really much of an idea of the industry as a whole anyway, to then like having launched something. And I'm like, OK, now I have this knowledge. And we are like in the middle of like the most craziest time in the industry.
00:11:46
Speaker
by far, you know, and it's, it's sort of so surreal. So it's that whole thing of like, okay, man, I just really want another chance. I really just want to go again. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's cause it is, it's, there's, there's so much to do within the game space, especially when it comes to building and creating cool content. It it's yeah, there's just so much there so much. Yeah.
00:12:13
Speaker
how did you How did you make that transition then? um Obviously, um what first of all, I think I know the answer, but I'd love to hear it from you. ah What motivated you to want to progress and to create um a game? And also, how did you like break into that kind of space and um have that opportunity?
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, um so what kind so what kind of like, how did I break into it? So I think yeah the thing is, is that i'm I've been very lucky and fortunate with the fact that like, and i after after doing a Sasser Screed Origins, I was nominated for for an award and that award essentially, at the BAFTAs, ah that essentially opened me or or gave me the opportunity to talk to a lot of people within the industry.
00:13:03
Speaker
So I was at an event where I was talking to developers and the, and I was really understanding like, Oh, okay. Isn't just Ubisoft. There are, you know, many different types of developers as indie developers. There are, you know, there are triple a big, you know, massive developers. There are developers from everywhere from under the sun. And it it kind of opened my eyes to the idea of like, Oh, okay. So people make games, people, human beings make games. They're not these magical things that you like pop into a, you know, into like your know a PC or or a console and it just magically happens. Like people actually make games, artists make games. And I'd say like,
00:13:44
Speaker
It wasn't, you know, and i've I've been a gamer all my life, you know, it's been my main mode or main kind of um way of taking in stories, taking in art content. So it was, it was, it was a moment, I think I was, I was in South Africa at the time where I was, I was doing raise. Yeah, I was doing raised by wolves. It was like the sort of the pilot. ah So you end up filming like,
00:14:09
Speaker
the first episode, first two episodes before they do, you know, the big studios decide that they want to go ahead with something. And it was at that moment where we were filming this pilot with with Ridley Scott, you know, of all people, and the fact that he had said yes to me, the fact that he had given me the chance to essentially be an actor, you know, and and and play a main role,
00:14:34
Speaker
gave me the courage and sort of confidence to be like, Oh, I can tell my own stories. And what was that story that I wanted to tell? It was a video game. Like I really wanted to make a video game. And so in truth, I think it was because of my sort of this, this sort of, um,
00:14:53
Speaker
blind, ah call it ignorance ah to it all of like what it actually takes to make a game. I just was driven by the the passion wanting of making a game. um That's essentially what led me to really just starting something, you know, the idea of beginning, you know, talking with friends and people.
00:15:14
Speaker
um ah ah like about the idea of, you know, oh, you know, people in the industry, how do you start, you know, how do you start a studio or how do you make a game getting there? You know, they're like their opinions. Oh, you need a producer or you need a game designer. You need a game design doc or you need like and programmers. You need, you know, artists and.
00:15:33
Speaker
you know i'm like okay where do i find artists i will they're all linked in our station or twitter or whatever some going on there to look for them what do i find designers again linked in you know sort of wherever some going on there and i'm and i'm and i'm hunting for people and i think you know the building the building blocks of of the studio.
00:15:53
Speaker
really came with this idea. It started with a concept of piece. Like I always knew that I wanted to tell the story about Zao and the story about grief and the story of of this kid kind of overcoming grief. And I had reached a artist over um on an art station, just messaged them and and put like my own money towards making some concept art pieces to kind of like solidify this idea, um giving them an idea of what the character looks like and what it when the character looked very different to the character of of where we are now. But like it was just enough to be like, hey,
00:16:29
Speaker
this is a foot this is This is a game idea. This is the beginning of something really cool. And yeah, it just sort of snowballed. It really did. like i can't I can't express how much of like the again like the the amount of knowledge I didn't have to now the knowledge that I do have. And it was just purely because I was driven with this sense of I need to tell this story. I need to share this experience.
00:16:54
Speaker
And yeah, that's how we got to to where we are today. It sounds crazy. mommringly Extremely, extremely grassroots. Like you were on LinkedIn, you were on our station just searching and flipping through artists oh like a catalog. yeah's what you're saying li Honestly, i I had I had lost. I'd stopped counting how many emails I sent, I think, after 500.
00:17:16
Speaker
when it came to you know reaching out to developers and artists. And it's funny, ah the you know i had because again, I i came from Ubisoft. It was all like you know from the experience of Ubisoft.
00:17:31
Speaker
ah they were all about. Don't tell anyone what you're doing. Don't tell them like the, the game idea or concept, just say who you are. And you know, at the time I was like, okay, all right, I'm, I'm an actor who wants to make a game, but you have no idea what that game is. Leave your job to join me on this, on this job. And it was not successful. Hence why i probably there was so many emails out there. But like, as soon as I just opened up, as soon as I started saying, no, I'm making a game, you know, which is heavily inspired by African myth and and legend, but ultimately at its heart, it's about human experience, the human experience of grief, the journey of grief, ah the amount of like reception of
00:18:08
Speaker
positivity I got from that, from people either being like, yeah, let's do this. Or like, oh, man, I've just started this job, but I can point you to someone else who you know would who would be up for it. It's nuts. And it's because, yeah, artists you know react two to art, to honesty, to authenticity. And I think like that is ah that was something, yeah, it was very grassroots, man. like I had put, and even even to this day, I think, i think even even my wife kind of looks at me like, what the hell, man?
00:18:36
Speaker
I put so much of my own money towards, you know, getting this thing off the ground because I'd really believed in it. And I wouldn't recommend that to anyone, by the way. Like, i you know, I was in a very fortunate position. I had like, you know, I had a good, I had, you know, I was, I'm an actor, that was like my main job, right? But like, it there was a, there was a real feel of,
00:18:57
Speaker
there's no one, no one's going to believe in this vision apart from myself. And the more I believe in it, the more than maybe other people might believe and see it. And so that kind of drove that through um as a whole. Yeah. a Quick note here. Cause there's just somebody in the chat that's asking what is a seems game called? Do you want to maybe like give a quick synopsis? Yeah. Yeah. So the game is called Tales of Canzera Zao, and it's a um sort of action platformer, action adventure platformer, very much inspired by the Metroidvania genre. And it's essentially about this young boy, this young shaman who ah strikes a deal with Kalunga, the god of death, the African god of death, ah or ah
00:19:44
Speaker
the Congolese god of death and essentially says like in exchange for three great spirits, I want you to bring my father back. And the game was very much inspired by my own journey of grief. So I lost my father 10 years ago. um And I really wanted to essentially express my own journey of grief in and in an authentic way. And, you know, i I, I always say this, my father introduced me to games. He was very much like a, like a tech head um and very, you know, very into kind of tech, you know, the, the, the advance of technology. He was a programmer essentially. um But he worked at Xerox. He was a, he was, he was working on printers, but um he appreciated the art of games. And so he introduced me to, to games and
00:20:31
Speaker
I always wanted to pay homage to that. I always wanted to create something or tell a story that that paid homage to that. And it would have, you know, a lot of people like kind of go like, why didn't you make a ah film or like, you know, or a TV show or something? Because that's where you're from. That's what you do. um But it wouldn't have been authentic and it wouldn't have been real. And so i it had to be a video game.
Cultural Influences in Game Design
00:20:52
Speaker
And so, yeah, Tales of Canzera Zao is essentially that game, this universe, this world that I wanted to conjure and It all comes from that seed of, you know, grief in a way. Yeah. And I think that's the beautiful thing. One, the expression through. There's a, I feel a deeper level of connection you can feel to the games through the expression of gameplay and feeling a lot of those connections and.
00:21:22
Speaker
um Zao for me allowed for me to to feel a lot more um and to learn a lot more about different cultures and stuff like that through an expression of gameplay and also with you mentioning sending these emails out and once you kind of shifted your focus to being like I'm not going to hide what this is about and I'm actually going to switch to it. um I think from my perspective if I got one of one of those emails We have all been through to a certain degree, oh been through those things and lost people and um felt those emotions and saying you're trying to craft art to communicate all of those feelings um through gameplay. I think for me, that's why ah a lot of these people were so willing to so come work with you, not just because of your you know your pedigree and your experience beforehand, but also because
00:22:17
Speaker
you are you were very clearly trying to make something that was trying to speak to the human experience in a very honest way. And um I think that's what draws people in because it just like, like you said, people respond to honesty and, you know, being, being human. Yeah, it's it's one of those. That's the thing. It's like, I think I think and especially in the world of today where we are, you know, surrounded by social media, surrounded by content, we are constantly bombarded with content and stories and and and things. It's like the the actual element of human connection or human humanity can kind of be a bit diluted in it, right? And I think like one of the one of the things that I really wanted to do, especially with the studio and especially with like the the story that I wanted to tell was
00:23:01
Speaker
was focus on that ah you know and hey Deena and sort of um kind of make sure that that that was at its core what it was about it was about being human and You know, and and look, you know, I've even starting the company and and, and, and, and sort of bringing the company to, to, to where it's at now. Like we've always, I've always been of that mentality of like respect the developer and you'll respect the audience. Um, and, and that kind of balance of like, uh, trying to bring that human aspect to it, I think has been always been the the key thing of what I've wanted to kind of conjure and craft, um, from, from the beginning.
00:23:43
Speaker
I apologize for losing power and everything. i guess my biggest person i lives here should apologize for losing power at your so So your studio and your culture and just, I heard you on Danny Dwyer's podcast talking about how you really trusted the creatives in their skillset. And I wanted to say how refreshing and just ah so wholesome it felt to hear that.
00:24:13
Speaker
Because that does not happen very often, especially in AAA, I will say. um You know, you're always kind of, you have a hammer coming down from above and you're just like, you do this, you're like, okay, hope it works out. And the and the and the truth is, like some of that like some of the best authors out there and artists and creators out there, you know, and and I think like, and i again,
00:24:37
Speaker
ah I'll only, i'm I'm not trying to name drop, but like from my experience of working with Ridley Scott, for example, you learn that Ridley is where he's at because of the people that he surrounds himself with, you know? And I think like, and he knows that very well. And the people around him know that as well. And there is this level of trust that kind of comes out from him and the people that he works with that really brings this that just pushes the big you know that the content that he creates to the next level. And I think like for me, that was something that I really wanted to... to
00:25:13
Speaker
to create and build. And look, don't get me wrong, like I remember um even during the whole marketing campaign of Zal, like I was very much being like the face of it, the face of it, because it's a very personal story and the face of it and the face of it. But like, you know, I i didn't build this game myself, man. Like it's it's the team. And I think like that has been, you know, really kind of key and core to, to what makes a company or a studio is is a group of people. So I had to have this level of trust. I had to, even though I was leading the charge and and and creatively directing, and I knew kind of what I wanted.
00:25:50
Speaker
I had to be vulnerable with my team and and and say like, look, I don't know how crazy this is or how much this is. I have to just trust you and tell, you know, if you say that this is possible, I have to trust that. If you say that it isn't possible, I have to trust that. And rather than being like, no, I'm the creative director and lead and everything that I want has to be in the game. You know what I mean? and and I'll never forget this like brilliant piece of advice that was it was given to me by, um it was it was it was the producer, ah Zoe Brown, who again, to this day, like truly just remarkable. and she you know If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have got this game out in the timeframe that we did. like She just
00:26:34
Speaker
shipping a game is like so different to just making it and playing it. Like it's a different experience, but you know, it's ah from, you know, she was like, look, just get a clean game out. Just get it out. You know, there's going to be a lot of things that you're not, that you, that you, that you really wanted to be in it in this game. And, and you really like really wanted to try with it. Like,
00:26:53
Speaker
Ultimately producer thing to say, and i on and man, it's like, she's just got a clean game out and like yeah like there honestly, and I like to this day, I am so happy. And especially because of the size of like where we, you know, where we came to, like it wasn't like this small indie game, right? It was like, it was, it's still indie, but it was under the EA original banner, you know? So people have this expectation of what this going to be. Then you've got then Prince of Persia coming out, which is, you know, made by you know, hundreds, if not thousands of people, like trying to, you know, making this clean, crisp game. So for us, it's like, yo, just just release a clean, crisp game man and then like get it out there and you can build that way. Because I think a lot of people as well don't realize that when it comes to shipping a first game as a studio, the first game really, it's
00:27:50
Speaker
that isn't important in a way, in a weird way. It's about the team you build because it's that team that then end up building the second game, then the third game, then the fourth game. And it's like you build that culture, you solidify that culture, that identity. That's where it, that's where the fun happens. Whereas a lot of the time that first game is kind of like a miracle that it even happens because you're working with strangers. You have no idea and trying to figure that out. You know, I have bad news for you. Every time you ship a game, it's going to be a miracle. No video game should exist because it doesn't make sense that you could get enough people to do the right things. It doesn't get easier, no. But that's the thing, but I think like, I think the one thing that I've, you know, I've really kind of learned from this whole process, which is kind of also why it's been, why this, you know, at this current time in the climate that we're in, it's like, it's kind of surreal, is because
00:28:47
Speaker
really truly that that building block of of making the team of of that first in that first instance is beautiful because you know, as a you know as once you've got that one game out, you've got that one you one game out with the team in the industry, you've now proven to so to to not only yourself, but to your peers as well, and to other industry professionals that you guys can make a game, right? And then it's like, okay, cool. that's then Then the second game is is you know is kind of like a done deal. You know, you're going to get that signed and you know, you're going to get that signed.
00:29:16
Speaker
the the climate that we're in today is like so volatile and so chaotic at the moment that it's almost like, okay, ah what do we do now? you I want to jump at what you just said too, because I feel like your studio is so perfect for the current climate because both you know, the the TV film industry and gaming are kind of in the same, almost like the same bubble right now. Yeah. like Everyone's kind of struggling. And I have personal friends that are trying to like cross into each other's industries to try to like, you know, get their next paycheck and hopefully it improves. But yeah, your studio alone, just being able to go into both seamlessly.
00:30:02
Speaker
it was It was one of the it was one of the the key things that I really wanted to kind of craft and conjure at the beginning. It's why we actually even had like a rebrand during our time of development. Like beforehand, we were known as Silver Rain Games. But in my mind, Silver Rain Games felt very separate to the production company, to the film company. And so I wanted to just kind of bleed it in together. It was all about storytelling.
00:30:28
Speaker
into certain studios. And, you know, you hear a lot of stories about like, oh, transmedia companies and all this sort of stuff. And it's like, actually the, that you know, the the this the secret sauce isn't about being this kind of like company that can do, um ah you know,
00:30:45
Speaker
the same ip and film tv and whatever no it's just about being able to make you know content in all these different spaces and tell stories these stories and all this sort of stuff so yeah it was um it's it's been it's been very for it's been very fortunate like very good for us because then in my head or in and you know from my experience i can have the the conversations with film companies as well as ah game sort of publishers, which has been really, really interesting to kind of do and really cool to kind of play with.
00:31:18
Speaker
and so Do you know what genre you're going to make next? there I have, I've got everything ready and it's weird. And like, this is the thing that I like, like it's how we've got like, we, we're we're currently like shopping it at the moment. And, and it is that kind of period of time where you're like, okay, it's really exciting. It's, it's, it's created very, it's, I think when people see it, people are going to be like,
00:31:44
Speaker
ah What the hell is going on here? And it's going to speak to it much right now, right? Cause yeah, I really can't. Yeah. But the thing is, is that, you know, I came up with this, this was part of the plan. This was like an I, and this is, so this is again, like part of my experience of like this, this game that we're currently like, you know, kicking around.
00:32:05
Speaker
It was, I had, you know, it was part of the plan and the journey of telling sort of the, the tales of Canzera sort of, you know, sort of story franchise world. Right. And it was, I'd come up with it. Like, I think.
00:32:21
Speaker
two years into development of Zao. So it was already cooking in the back of my mind. But, you know, after years of, you know, building Zao and hearing other people, they're all like, no, you've got to build a different IP. You've got to change stuff. And then the you know industry decides to kind of flip on itself and no one has any idea what they're doing. so as the typical artists of who of what you do, you're like, fuck it, I'm just gonna do what I wanna do. So now we're shopping, now we' we're shopping this game around. And it's amazing how, how like, what's the word, how easy it is.
00:32:57
Speaker
to kind of share and and build upon an idea that you actually feel passionate about rather than the kind of idea that you think other people want to make. So like, you know, easily could jump into the bandwagon and be like, oh yeah, let's make a game, you know, a live service sort of, you know, ah shooter. And it's like, you don't want to build that, but people for some unknown reason are throwing stupid money at it. So you're like, oh, well, it just makes sense. but then what ends up happening is try tragedy. So you don't want to kind of go down that route. So yeah, um you got to love, man. That passion is infectious as well. They're like um it is some of the best ideas that I've heard from people and people pitching is just like, they come with this small idea. And and like you were saying,
00:33:45
Speaker
We've got with building a team that you trust and that you're, you're passionate about working with, you can share one tiny idea and it just starts bouncing between the team and it just grows and it just loads everyone gets hype. And it's just, this so it's so good.
00:34:01
Speaker
the And again, it's that whole thing of like the the communi communicate, because we were building this other game and internally and kind of workshopping this other game internally. And we we but we were feeling it, but like it it kind of wasn't. like we I feel like it was almost like, and I like i like could admit, like there was a feeling of like maybe we're just trying to appease a certain vibe, right?
00:34:22
Speaker
um And it it was there but it wasn't and like the thing is this is it the team can build it absolutely because you know the the team of builders like we're creators were artists. But you need that fuel right and the difference from like the first sort of iteration of what are you know what our next game is gonna be to like the game that we're on today.
00:34:45
Speaker
vastly different, like within like the space of like a month, the yeah team of built conjured and created and just keep evolving prototyping and playing. It's like to the point where I'm almost like, i'm so I'm like this close. And I know that my team would hate me for doing it, but like I'm this close to like sending like a hundred codes on Twitter and being like, everyone just play it now. It's like, it's great box, but play it like because we really care about it because we really love it and
Game Mechanics and Team Dynamics
00:35:10
Speaker
we really enjoy it. And it's just such a difference.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. I'm having that experience right now with, uh, this, I'm working on two games, but the second one I'm working on, which I also can't speak too much to cause, um, it's, uh, it's under a lot of stuff, but we've had that same experience. We've just hit that kind of pinnacle in our prototype where everything's fallen into place and it feels yeah nice. And it's like, Oh man, I just want to send this to. to everyone and just have everyone play it just to kind of experience it. so That kind of excitement though is what you need to drudge through a lot of the
00:35:47
Speaker
tedium because making games isn't all fun, right? like there's a lot of There's a lot of busy work. There's a lot of, um you know, arduous stuff that needs to be done. So you need that kind of passion to push through literal years of development to to get these things ready for wider audiences. um I'm curious to know If they and not just for for everybody in here ah because I'm thinking of my own experience with that and I'm thinking of like actually a specific moment like I do think it kind of came down to a specific moment or feature for us at New World we were we were making like a modern military shooter and then we decided oh like um Wouldn't it be cool if, like, you could call stuff in, like, from the sky or something? But that doesn't make sense, right? Because it's, like, outer-insurgency operations, and we're going for a more low-scale thing. But the Second World War was pretty high-scale. What if you could call it... And then it just kind of snowballed from there, and we made... Dave made, like, a World War II shooter where you could call an artillery in planes. Like, it was an escalation and natural growth of our adversary and multiplayer experience through this mechanic, through this feature. and that got us all excited and then we were like we made a mod for our own game release that for free just because we were excited. I'm curious if there was like a moment for you guys too that you could talk about it where like there was a mechanic or a feature that then snowballed into this great path of excitement.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say for Zao, it definitely was. um like be ah like and And I think the the way that I've sort of approached a lot of this the stuff that we conjure, like I always think about the pad, right? I always think about like what the player's gonna be feeling, how they're gonna be playing, how they're gonna be playing.
00:37:29
Speaker
and thinking about the emotion as well. And for for us, it was the mass switching. It was the, it was the element of being like, I knew from the get go, like I, it in in a way of being able to convey a true feeling of like, what, what is it about grief that, um, that sort of in my eyes hasn't been really depicted much. Oh, it's the different masks that you wear depending on who you're talking to. And like, you know, and, and,
00:37:52
Speaker
I, you know, that the way the the mask that I wear when talking to my mother is very different to the mask that I wear when talking to like a friend, ah even though I am still suffering, the person behind it is still suffering from from grief. And so for me, it was like, Oh, okay, cool. So it's very different, very different characters.
00:38:09
Speaker
how do we conjure that and create that kind of experience in the gate in a game space that, you know, how do we convey that? Oh, right. A button that you're able to literally switch between. So it isn't isn't a weapon wheel, because a weapon wheel, you've got time. You've got time to kind of select and and do whatever you've got to do. It has to be something that you can flip really fast between and still kind of conjure that and create that different experience. And that's essentially where we cracked it. And to begin with, and what's really funny though, it's like at the beginning, I really wanted all these different masks. I wanted like four or five different masks that you could wear, um, as a whole, because I, because again, again, very reflective of the people that you're talking to the, the, you know, the environments that you interact with. But we realized that
00:38:52
Speaker
to flip between five masks is very, very hard. It's like trying to come pistol, whatever. Like it's hard to do one button. You you went for elegance is what you went for. Exactly. And I think like that's why we went down to two and it made sense and it made, and it and the feeling was conveyed a lot easier. A lot, you know, a lot simple, like the idea of like a melee based character and and a shooter, like it just made sense. And I think like that Once you found that that, you then begin developing other things ah everything else. and that's kind of that was where the That's where the game element became really exciting, the mechanic. It's like, okay, cool. How do we kind of double down on this mechanic? Where do we kind of place challenges that us you know that are are um are based around this mechanic?
00:39:38
Speaker
and you know, play into it, like, and we found some stuff that didn't work and some stuff that really did work. And that's essentially, you know, the the brilliance and yet the brilliance of it all. It's like when you do find that thing and don't get me wrong, like so it sometimes it takes time, right? Like um one sort of ah mechanic that kind of one element that kind of came later ah in in our game.
00:40:03
Speaker
ah was funnily enough, the the shielded enemies, like being able to kind of the different colored shielded enemies, you would have thought like that would be like the first thing that you'd that would come to mind, especially within development, right? But actually, it came much later down the line. And that was discovered, you know, that but then became fun. And it's like, Oh, okay, cool. You've as long as we kind of adhere and listen to the to the, to what is fun and follow that fun and chase that fun. Like everything else will come down the line. So that's kind of, yeah, that was sort of one, one mechanic we found very early on that evolved over time from like five masks to then two, to you know, as a whole.
00:40:44
Speaker
Did you ever play Ikaruga by any chance? Top-down shooter, switch between black and white? No, I didn't. Okay. Because when I was playing, I was reminded of that. And I did like, you know, I used the word elegance, but Ikaruga had like a similar mechanic that understood the simplicity of Japanese game. And I love when design does that. I love when design is like clear and simple, but actually super impactful, right? Just between two things, but then you get all this gameplay. So anyway, RJ, what were you saying?
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good example of, so I'm usually a big proponent of, as a game designer um first, I'm always a big proponent of like bottom up design, like having a mechanical bed that you then build a new narrative and um a through line on top of it. But buvear what you've just said is a beautiful example of top down. Like you altered your mechanical expressions and access with like you were speaking of,
00:41:40
Speaker
and Instead of using a wheel, you use the button press to better narratively convey an emotion and a state to the player. That is such a beautiful example of like top down design and like focusing on what, um, cause there's no right answer, right? Bottom up top down that is yeah yeah on the project. And, um, you know, Zao, I think from what you've just said is a beautiful example of taking what is narratively, um, and emotionally important and seeing how you can have the mechanics.
00:42:09
Speaker
better express that and then having it be a more elegant and a better format for that from that decision making. I think that's fascinating. And look, and I think like everyone, everyone definitely has their own way of working, right? And I think like, I think because of my background as an actor, ah the the first thing that comes to mind is the emotions, right? And like the emotion that you're trying to convey or the emotion that you're trying to, to, to, to portray. And I think that is, that's,
00:42:37
Speaker
That's where I'm comfortable in. So in my head, I'm trying to then now communicate that to the designers and to the artists and and and and to the you know to the coders and and and to this you know the sound team. and to that you know And it's like, can you guys you know can you guys take this this feeling and go with it? I think like that then that's the challenge, right? It's communicating the feeling to someone else.
00:43:01
Speaker
um who thinks very differently. but when you But what I have found through my experience is by giving them space to sort of react. And that's the the great you know the trick to, again, acting is letting the other person react and then you react to it rather than kind of thinking, no, no, no, it has to be this way. By letting other people react, they come up with something better.
00:43:23
Speaker
And I think that has been really cool about, again, trusting the team. The past 10 minutes has sounded like you giving a TED talk on how to be an amazing creative director. And I know you've only worked on one game, but you sound so experienced and senior. It's it's unbelievable. I'm not even, you know, just, I'm not making that up. Like it's crazy. You're, you're getting out of your way and letting other people like collaborate with you. It's,
00:43:48
Speaker
i yeah it's yeah I just want to give you your flowers. It's crazy. you know i appreciate that but it's like it is it its I think that's the thing. I find it so amazing that like you, you end up getting a lot of people who have really stuck in ah in a way in which it needs to be. And it's hindering because at the end of the day, we're all artists. Like we all have a story to tell. So tell it. And I think, you know, giving people the space to do that sometimes, it sometimes it's the right thing. Sometimes it isn't. And I think,
00:44:16
Speaker
For me, I've always as well said to the team, I'd rather hear the crazy ideas and the crazy thoughts and say no to that and say why it might not work for it, but still bank it, than you just kind of doing what I tell you to do. Because then that's just boring. Then you're just following orders. Where's the fun in that? And I think it's really- I think a lot of AAA devs are going, ugh.
00:44:46
Speaker
It's like you're following orders, man. And it's, it's so like, so boring to just, to just be told, like, dont don't get me wrong. Like don't obviously don't go around and, and yeah, there's nuance to it, right? to Yeah. yeah well Like even like this was what was also really hilarious. So even starting the studio, um, we went through this whole phase of like on a business side, um, conjuring the contract and and all this sort of stuff. And which was hilarious. Um, that's another,
00:45:14
Speaker
beast that you have to deal with the lawyers and the admin and whatever of running an actual studio. Um, anyway. Um, and I remember the, uh, the lawyer at the time asking like, Oh, so what do you think of, uh, people making games, uh, during your during the, you know, during their employment? And I'm like, yeah, man, do it. Like, you know, make like the, have them make their own games. Like if they have time for it, sure. Like go for it. Like I remember getting this look from him being like,
00:45:42
Speaker
that, what if they make like the next Minecraft, like surely it should be under like the the the banner of surgeons or like, you know, the banner of silver rain. I'm like, but like this is that's We're in a creative field. like I'm writing all sorts of different ideas and thoughts and and cool stories while I'm working working on TV shows and whatnot. It doesn't mean that it's owned by Warner or or whoever. so you know like Given them the freedom and the amount of developers who are like, wait, you're okay with me? like yeah
00:46:14
Speaker
trialing and building are you are you sure I'm like yeah but this is the thing it's like but that's how it should be you know because then it's how you build loyalty right like people want to be there and want to share like I want to be with you you know and like And who's to say, like, you know, they might come up with a really cool idea, for example, then through their own game, share it with you. And then you might be like, oh, that's really cool. And that would maybe spark them to think of the problems and and stuff that we're facing with our current game in a different light. And it's like, because if that's that's just creative thinking. That's just problem solving. And so, yeah, it's all these publishers like, come on, honestly, like let them be creative.
00:46:57
Speaker
yeah but I got a question here. Let's hear about it from the other end because it's definitely true. When you're in that leadership position, you got to let people do their thing. Nowadays we say you got to let them cook and it's true. When's the time where, and this is for, for everybody, not just you. When's the time where as a leader, you had to go, I'm sorry guys, I need you to trust me. We got to do it this way. Cause that I find in leadership roles. That's one of the toughest things you could do.
00:47:24
Speaker
I have a story about that ah on Apex Legends. So I think the biggest thing I was hired at Respawn to be their single player producer for Titanfall three. And that was in development when I got there and I saw the game. I played it. It was amazing.
00:47:40
Speaker
um And then out of like what seemed like nowhere, well, it wasn't really nowhere. There was just tap ah stuff happening behind the scenes. The team decided, hey, we're going to make this battle royale shooter. We got a map blocked out. It's fun as hell. We're going to kill Titanfall 3 and do this new game. And the whole studio was like what? You know, ah some people resisted. A lot of designers were all for it because they are the ones that made the prototype. But it took.
00:48:12
Speaker
I want to say like a month or two of just convincing and dragging people into making this game, which ended up, you know, I think it worked out. but that greating yeah barr see it's true that That was one that comes to mind in my career is just like, get rid of this thing. We're doing this new thing. and was that something you feel like yeah good Yeah. Was that something where you feel like the the higher ups were asking for that kind of you need to trust us. Like this is what we feel is best for the studio, you know, the franchise and stuff like that. Do you feel like they were asking for that permission? Not that they would need to. yeah in ale a They could just go, go fuck yourselves.
00:48:50
Speaker
ah yeah But do you reckon they had that kind of energy of listen to us like this is what we need to do? So I'm pretty sure that decision was made around the time or before EA bought Respawn. Okay. And so like the final nail in the coffin to do it was after EA purchased Respawn and there, um, you know, two A's credit, they kind of just said like, we're not convinced, but like convince us. Cause in the contract that said we had to put out a Titanfall three. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it,
00:49:27
Speaker
I don't want to take away from, you know, the conversation with a Buba car, but it was it was like pulling teeth and it was a struggle a little bit. But especially when you tell people, oh, we're going to go up against Fortnite, which at the time didn't have very many competitors were like, are you insane?
00:49:43
Speaker
Uh, but we realized when we played Fortnite and, uh, I forgot the other name of the other shooter. ah Um, PUBG. Yes. PUBG. Thank you. Uh, Battle Royale at night. It was kind of janky, right? Like everything was in beta all the time. And the guys, you know, worked on cod and Titanfall and they were like, we could do better. And they were. Yeah.
00:50:07
Speaker
beger and Yeah, I'd, I'd say like there, there have been many, like but not, I say many, quite a few moments of just being like, trust me. Um, uh, and, and in regards to direction and elements of that as a whole. And I think, you've you know, funnily enough, like,
00:50:29
Speaker
I've had to learn a lot through this process because again, this is the first time i'm I'm running a company, running a studio. I've had to gain a lot of confidence in, in, in sort of being that, that kind of person who's like, no, no, no, this is the way I need it to be done. Just trust me here. Um, and I'd say like, you know, now in the, in the evolution of where we're going now, I feel like that I'm beginning to find my feet more. Whereas actually with Zao,
00:50:59
Speaker
there is that, you know, there is a double edged sword of, you know, sometimes you can, you can kind of, you know, put trust in, in, in, in voices and elements of, of it, like being like, Oh no, actually I don't think that's going to work. And then like, for example, like our, our skill system, we didn't have a sort of method like this progression of like the character of, you know, purchasing skills.
00:51:23
Speaker
until right last minute. And that was mainly, you know, many there was many those's quite a few factors, right? Yeah, I know. It was, and like, keep in mind, like, there was, okay, so this is, this is, here's the tea. Like, so there is, so.
00:51:39
Speaker
So skills, skills was something that came very, very last minute because it was cut because we just, and there was a few factors. Uh, one, we, um, we didn't, our team was still needing, you know, we still needed like quite a few coders and and quite a, quite a strong code team in order to kind of actually get these the skills that we wanted in place in there. It was still evolving. It was still trying to figure it out. So we were like, okay, look, we just want to make a, again, make that clean game, make it really good. Don't make something janky that doesn't make any sense. Um,
00:52:09
Speaker
take our skills. Then as we were playing it, we were realizing why, why are we doing this? We need skills. We need like experienced boys. We need to purchase skills. We need to do it. So that came like, we're in really, really last minute. Um, and it, it, it passes. It does its thing, right? Now enemies is a really interesting one because again, we had designed at the beginning, like 23 odds different enemies. Like we had a ton of, um,
00:52:38
Speaker
of ah of of designs of these different kind of spiritual beings and elements and African kind of like, you know, enemies that you could go with and and fight. But conjuring and crafting that was going to be a problem. And I had to trust my team. I had to listen to my team and they literally, I remember them saying like, look, if we build all these enemies, every single one of them is going to feel like junk there. You know, the AI is just not going to perform very well. It's just going to feel really, really silly. Right. And so, and I, wrote and, and
00:53:12
Speaker
And this was that moment of like, I remember being insane, you know, saying in my head, no, this is where I've got to be like, no guys, you've got to do this. Trust me. I should put my foot down as a leader and say, trust me. Right. Thank God I didn't because even though we don't have many enemies in our game.
00:53:29
Speaker
at least they play well, like at least they work. Whereas with skills, again, it was that whole moment of like, no, we need skills, put your foot down. Thank God we did. Because at least now the player feels like there's a progression. So it's it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a funny dance. Like you've got to do, history that did it's you just, you just never know. And, but at the same time, there is this sense of like, at the end of the day, you know,
00:53:55
Speaker
You've got to take the risk. You've got to take the plunge. like if if i you know i remember again listening to um I'd this game idea, this African mythology-based game, to like um like two or no quite a few publishers. It was like three or four Um, they say a few, that was again, at a time when I didn't even know that you needed a publisher to make a game. I just thought, okay, I'll just make a game and just put it out there. and everything on the fly you did literally yeah and But I remember, you know, one publisher coming back and being like, Oh, African mythology is too niche. No one's going to, you know, no one's going to like it. Um, you should think of doing something that everyone understands.
00:54:34
Speaker
Can you tease and the publisher's name? I'm not going to, I'm not going to drop. I mean, you want to burn those fuckers? I'm not doing very well anyway at the moment, but like I remember them saying that. I remember thinking, I remember thinking actually, you know what? No, I've got to stick to my guns here. yeah God, I did because then EA was like, this is dope. This is really, really cool. And so yeah, it's that, it's that thing of like, yeah, you've got to sometimes just be like, yeah, like just,
00:55:01
Speaker
fight it, man. Yeah. Yeah. I bought the game. That's not a, it's not an uncommon thing to hear. You know, and I kind of get it cause publishers are thinking about like broader appeal. Let's make sure that people can relate to the experience, but at the same time, like it would not be that That has to be what the game is. I'm thinking of another team that I know that like had this very similar experience. Their culture is expressed through the game and it needs to be there. And the publisher said, well, we love your gameplay, but like can you change the the setting and cultural aspect? And they were like, well, no, because like that's that's personal to us. And that's what we want to say. yeah It makes us stand out, too. Isn't that good enough for the market? But every publisher has a different perspective on that. So yeah it's a bit of a shame. Yeah.
00:55:46
Speaker
Uh, sovereign for 10 euros says, just want to say the passion you showed back at the VGA is when revealing Zao got me to wishlist right away. Really enjoyed it. Gave me all the feels. So a big thanks to you and your team. Oh, thank you. Oh, that's that was, do you know, what's funny about that moment I had.
00:56:05
Speaker
Honestly, I've got to give some real respect to Jeff. Jeff Keeley, he champions indie developers on another scale. I had bumped into him at the BAFTAs.
00:56:22
Speaker
which was like, uh, it was the year before. Was it the year before? Was it the same year? I think I did 2023. I can't remember, but it was, it was, I, I bumped into him at the Baptist, at the softer party thing. Um, and you know, he was just doing his thing. And like, I really liked, I was like, Hey man, this is the guy who like, this is, this is like the president of games. So I was like, I'm going to go say hi. So I want to go say hi to him. And he's, you know, really lovely guy. And, you know, and I was like, Hey, by the way, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing this, you know, I'm, I'm doing this, I'm making this game, uh, as well, like, which is kind of based on, you know, kind of African mythology. And again, this is like loud music craziness. He doesn't need to talk to me. There's like, you know, Sony's like on another table, like play state, you're like, you know, X-Box are over there. Like all these like incredible developers. And he was like,
00:57:14
Speaker
Oh, okay, tell me more. And I kind of just like pitched him this game and he was like, you should show it at the awards. And I was like, huh? And so what was great about it though, obviously, you know, you went through the whole process of like, I had to tell EA, like Jeff said, like we can show our game at the awards. And he was like, even EA were like,
00:57:33
Speaker
There's a process. is a there is a Like, come on, man. But what was, what was amazing was the fact that like this guy, Jeff, like literally Jeff was like, you know what? I think this is going to mean a lot more if you get on stage and talk about it.
00:57:50
Speaker
And I was like, wait, you're not just gonna, you know, just let me do like a trailer. And cause I would have been happy with just a trailer and been like, yo, my trailer was at the game. I was like, ah that's like, yeah that to me is like ah a cool thing to tell like your schoolmates. You know what I mean? But he was like, no, you need to go in and tell your story. And I am forever thankful for that because if it wasn't for that moment, I don't think we we would have, you know, we would have,
00:58:15
Speaker
I wouldn't have, you know, the, the PlayStation deal, for example, probably wouldn't have happened. Like the, you know, the, the, the amount of kind of coverage we got with, with X-Box, the BBC, like it wouldn't have happened. And it was because, you know, I think Jeff really just, he just, he, he gave us a shot and and and it just, it just made, it just really kind of, again, like I'm so forever thankful for that because it was so powerful.
00:58:42
Speaker
So what you're saying is you weren't multi-platform until after you presented at the BGAs? Yeah, I mean, pretty much. like I mean, like we were we were we were aiming for it, like we were building towards it,
Industry Challenges and Community Support
00:58:53
Speaker
right? But like, as I say, like the PS Plus deal or like the the coverage, to the amount of coverage we got, like with, you know, having trailers and like, and this was this was the other cool thing, right? It's like,
00:59:06
Speaker
And like, don't get me wrong, like, I think there's all this, I think console wars is is, is, is such the biggest myth and lie ever. Like everyone talks to everyone back at, you know, behind the scenes, like it's what it is. It's, that's the industry, right? We're all in the same industry. And so, but the fact that we were able to like, get like a PlayStation, you know, slot and the trailer there with also Nintendo switch with also like Xbox, like it's never heard of, like it's, it's really hard, but you've got the people behind this stuff saw the saw the presentation at the of the Game Awards, saw the story behind it, they saw the humanity behind it, and they were like, yeah, we want to champion this.
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah. And it was just, yeah, it was, and again, it wouldn't have happened if, you know, if, if good old Jeff didn't say, Hey buddy, you want to get on stage? It was, it was like a real idealist. I feel like gaming's lucky to have him. yeah He believes in mediums so much. I don't know. personally I'm just saying it seems that way, but this is it, right? That's the thing. Like I think obviously there's elements of business in what you need to do and, and, and, and all that kind of jazz that you got to play. You got to play the industry in the game to to a degree.
01:00:14
Speaker
But when I tell you like there is a there is a level of actual genuine love for the medium that this man shows and brings, it's ridiculous. like it's It's truly like it's incredible. like he's ah He's incredibly successful and does his thing, knows the people, but it's the fact that also he just loves games.
01:00:40
Speaker
yeah loves games. And I think like that's what's really, that's what's really cool about it. Like there's no, no hate for it. Anyway, I need to mention one thing. er and um So when a lot of developers get on stage, we all are sort of introverted and, in you know,
01:00:59
Speaker
kind of not used to being in the public eye. And you always see memes about people like holding their hands by their, you know, by their waist, like not really knowing what to do on stage, kind of uncomfortable in the body. And, you know, you yeah eyes you ah you know, you're in theater, you're an actor. ye That obviously gave you some sort of comfort in being on stage in front of all those people. Do you ever reflect on the fact that everything you've done has led you to this moment on being on stage and creating your own game. Like with your experience with your dad, all the games you've played, you know, being in these ah shows, like how does, how does that make you feel now? Yeah. It's very surreal, very weird. Um, and then the journey of it as a whole is, is very kind of surreal. Like I think, like, yeah,
01:01:47
Speaker
Even, even being on stage that I, to this day was definitely still this, the scariest moment for me. Like, and as I said, like I've been on stage a hundred and one times, but that's mainly because I'm playing a character. So it's, you know, if people are going to have a comment, they're commenting on the character rather than necessarily like me as the actor. So I can kind of shut off. Whereas here it felt like I was being very kind of like myself, very raw, right? Very open. kind of vulnerable a vulnerable vulnerable and like And like, and look, and don't get me wrong. Like I know, I know gamers. I'm a gamer myself. I know what we're going to say and what we're going to watch. Like most of the time people are going to be like, shut up and just show me the game. yeah i got You know, that's always plain. But at the same time, I do think like, yeah, there is this element that kind of a very surreal sort of moment of like, yeah, we've gone through all of this that has led me to this, you know, to this to the space, this place of being like, hey.
01:02:43
Speaker
I'm going to just, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm here telling this game. And even like now, like I look at like where we are now, the industry being in this sort of weird kind of space of, of uncertainty. And I kind of think like, if it wasn't for me being an actor, I probably wouldn't feel so, not necessarily chill about it, but like, I wouldn't have this mentality of like, I was going to get better because again, as an actor, you you have to get used to the idea of that.
01:03:07
Speaker
every job that you do or your like the job that you last did might be your last job because this industry is just ridiculous. So it's yeah, it's is I do feel ah do feel lucky, but at the same time, I'm also terrified of what else and what other stories are going to come. you know I do want to bring up one thing that I can commiserate with you on that I have, that I felt when You're, you know, when I hear about your experience on other podcasts and interviews, and also what I've seen you post on social media is that, you know, being a minority.
01:03:44
Speaker
You know, I've always felt like talking about the adversity that you face almost gives it more power. So you try to minimize it and put it to the side and ignore it. But then that like anxiety and pressure of being a developer or a creative type really gets to you at some point and you just explode and you kind of, you know, in a way where you're not really carrying yourself professionally. Like I've seen, you know, devs crack under pressure of yeah and comments they get and, um,
01:04:17
Speaker
I will, how do you do it? Like, how do you navigate yeah university? And, you know, ah I can only imagine. It's it's been ah like that it's no it's it's been a journey.
01:04:33
Speaker
I'll be honest with you. yeah um In the sense of like, again, like I think it's very, like as I was saying earlier, like as an actor, I've faced, I've had many weird comments. Like, and I've, I've, I've said this before, like even with raised by wolves and, and even with, you know, even now with like house of the dragon, you get those weird sort of comments that kind of come out and you're just a bit like, why don't you just see me for the role that I am rather than necessarily this political agenda or whatever, you know, that we're trying to do, right? And, but as an actor, it's very, it's, it's kind of, it's a lot easier to kind of shut off. It still hurts because it's personal, but you can kind of shut it off. But whereas in games,
01:05:11
Speaker
especially with this, because it is so personal and because it is so like directly vulnerable, it's very vulnerable. So it feels very close. And I think like, again, entering in the, like we released a game in a very political time. The UK was going through its or own political like elements with France as well, with the U S with like everywhere, every, like the poll, it was high. It was very charged. Everyone's emotions was very charged. And I think like,
01:05:38
Speaker
I'll be honest, like I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate the, the, the ridiculousness and the kind of mad stories that kind of come out and, and mad things that people say. I think the one thing that I, you know, cause I went through a whole phase of being like, and if I'm just silent and I just ignore it, then, uh, it will, you know, you said you won't give it power and you're just not giving it powers. It will always be there, but you're just not giving it power, right? You're ignoring it. You're not giving it oxygen.
01:06:08
Speaker
And then, yeah, there was a moment where I just had to say something because I realized I was just thinking to myself, man, this is not only affecting me, but it's it's affecting so many other people. And also the narrative of what we had conjured was because no one was talking about it from our side or like from our kind of experience, the narrative was almost being snatched and being taken and spoken about by other people. So I felt like I had to say something. I had to fight and, you know, do something. And then I realized after that as well, going through that whole phase of like, and I think this is the thing I came in with a sense of,
01:06:45
Speaker
If I can discuss, if I can talk openly and and be honest, if I can just be myself and just be like, look, look at me as a human being, right? Forget the color of my skin, forget all this stuff. Like let's just talk about it on a human level.
01:07:00
Speaker
maybe we can find some middle ground. And I don't mind not agreeing on the same topics or, you know, agree to disagree. Like I don't mind that. What I just want to do is find a middle ground, right? In the same way, it's like trying to, and I guess what the the craziest way of saying it is like,
01:07:17
Speaker
how do how do I, how how can you agree with a racist and be like, let's just agree to disagree. But like, you know what I mean? like and And I kind of came to that realization of like, oh yeah, make like some people's identity are completely crafted through hate and through anger and through a feeling of feeling wrong. and feeling you know you're and unjust. And that's people's identity. So if I'm there to be like, hey buddy, actually i want to change like I want you to think of it or see it this way. I'm challenging now your identity. It's going to be personal. It's not going to work. And so i you know I went through this phase of like, actually, you know what, there's just sometimes maybe
01:07:57
Speaker
No talking. There's no way of, there's no middle grounded. There's no way of meeting here. There's no, there's no solution here. There's no winning them over, right? There's no winning them over because, because their identity is so grafted and built upon this, this, this stance that to challenge that is to challenge them and their ideals and their beliefs and their thoughts.
01:08:23
Speaker
And they're not going to shift from that. They don't want to shift from that. And I think like and is and and i think like that's where... now I'm in this space of like, okay, great. Well, what anything that I have control of, like then I'll just, you know, I'll shut it down. So for example, like our steam, our steam page actually is a really good example of this. Our steam sort of um forum was full of like madness. And we let that happen. That's what that shit is. Oh man, dude. like yeah real real It can get very bad. It can get very bad. I guess I should, it was crazy.
01:08:58
Speaker
it got to a point where it got to a point where like, again, we were like, okay, we're just going to let it go. We're just going to let everyone talk and kind of express themselves because there's always good people out there or people who want enough, you know, who are going to be like, Hey, I'm going to call you on your bullshit. And and it happened like that happened. But ultimately, there was a lot of noise. And And for a while we were like, no, it's good for people to have conversation here. It's good for people to, to express themselves and kind of, you know, maybe they can learn something out of it. And then it just got to the point where I was like, you know, I'll screw this man. We're just going to like delete and ban anyone who comes in here because we have control over here because it's just noise. It's nonsense. Like you're doing it for the sake of it. And I think that's the thing. Like I don't know if there isn't even a right or wrong way of dealing with it.
01:09:46
Speaker
but you find a way that you can kind of handle it. And like for me, it's been, it's been a like our way of handling it has been like not to engage and just not to be like, it's like allow it now. Like, you know what I mean? Like you can, yeah, you can have your own opinions and thoughts there, mate, but I know who I am. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to go with it that way. You know, yeah ah I respect that.
01:10:11
Speaker
um I want to segue a little bit into an uncomfortable conversation, um, because, you know, there's a lot of layoffs happening in both industries. Um, and we did get a question from Tyler boys. Uh, thank you for donating $5, um, about layoffs. So he says, hi, Abubakar respectfully. Is there anything you wish you had done differently to avoid needing layoffs at surgeon? Any advice to prevent mass layoffs?
01:10:38
Speaker
Oh, that's rough. um I mean, its it's a tough question yeah because you kind of, and and look i and I can't speak for anyone else's experience and and any other company's experience as well as a whole. Like it can only speak from mine and
01:10:56
Speaker
you know, i i am I again, running a business and running a studio, you you you try and prepare for everything. You know, that's that's the thing. Like you, you know, you've got you've got backup plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and like, you you know, you you kind of go for it, but like, don't like, I think,
01:11:17
Speaker
the way is and The way in which this industry is kind of like what's happened today or what's happening today, I don't think anyone could have planned for it in the same way that I don't think anyone could have planned for what you know the industry what happened with the industry during COVID. you know and i think like And I think that's the thing. like i if ah like When I look back at it,
01:11:38
Speaker
I can't. And there's like, there's two mindsets. There is the, there is the, there is a con, there is a, you know, the person in me that's always asking the questions of like, Oh man, maybe I should have, you know, maybe I should have done this, or maybe I should have spoken to this person, or maybe I should have spoken to that person, or maybe I should have like, uh, you know, spoken to, you know, got money from this place or that place or wherever. But then there's the other side of me that's like, Oh, but hot what, you know, what can I, the only thing I can do is act upon the scenario and situation that I'm in today. And we can only make the best of the stitch of the best of what we can yeah now and it's it's it's horrible like it's you know again like you've got to think like
01:12:17
Speaker
and This is the other thing as well. you've got so I'm dealing with the the way that the industry is kind of going and performing and and happening. because the layoffs not ah were not you know and this just This is from me. like Honestly, these the layoffs that kind of that we've experienced were not tied to the performance of Sal. They weren't,
01:12:37
Speaker
but I'm being told now that they were on Twitter or like on, you know, whatever. Oh, they're very qualified. You see, on twitter and i think yeah but is it, but then it isn't because there are so many other factors, be it other publishers. I mean, like look at what fucking happened with Anna Perna, like literally yesterday, yesterday. It's crazy. And it's like, do you want me? that's got nothing to do with like you know like their games performing not very well or whatever. like there's ah There's all these other factors and things that are happening behind the scenes that you have no control over, even as a developer. So you you you know really truly, you you have no control over stuff. You can only, as a as a business as a businessman,
01:13:23
Speaker
react to the scenario of what you've of where you are and what you've been given in, right? yeah And don't get me wrong. I think like the games industry as a whole is still sort of evolving. It's still very young, yeah you know? And I think like... deep where we We are told a lot of the time, especially with the kind of when you're when you're working with like studios like with EA or places like that, um you're told to just continue to grow and build and throw more money at a situation. And I actually don't think that's the right thing to do. I think actually
01:13:55
Speaker
you, you know, we should be listening and following, um, people like super giant or, you know, where, where essentially like they keep their their team cool and calm and like, you know, what back is your what is something like' really beneficial it's really beneficial. I think we should, you know, that that should be happening more. But the the problem is, is the the infrastructure and the way that the industry is kind of built at the moment,
01:14:18
Speaker
doesn't necessarily champion that in a weird way. No, I agree with you because like, especially in live service, when, you know, the publisher is telling you compete with that number one game over there that has over a thousand devs. How are you going to do that with 130? You can't, you got to scale. And then when you scale and then maybe it doesn't work out, then you laughoffs it's unfortunate. And it's beyond the creatives control.
01:14:41
Speaker
Yeah. and And the thing is as well, like I think that the, the, the, the, the, the good thing about it, and this is why I love the games industry as well. It's like, it's like we have, we only hear about the layoffs in the games industry when actually every creative industry right now us so are struggling. You mentioned it earlier, like the film, the film and TV space, especially in LA. Yeah. Yeah. Because he just dropped it in the industry wide. It's an industry wide thing. Disney followed over a hundred thousand workers last year.
01:15:09
Speaker
Yep. Is it like, do you see what like it is? And this is happening across, you know, different kind of, but you know, production companies and and whatnot. And I think like, but the thing is, is that the games industry, we are so open. We are so kind of like, again, we'd be it either through to the development, but also through the hells and and nightmares that we go through that you kind of hear a lot about it, but like it's happening across the board. And I think it is, it's, it's this, the infrastructure just needs a vibe check. It really does.
01:15:39
Speaker
I think we should transition into something more wholesome and funny
Fun Game Pitch Segment
01:15:43
Speaker
and fun. Some heavy shit. We got my favorite of all of entertainment. Yeah. It's all good. I like it. I like it. At the end of every episode, we do something fun where we do an improv game pitch. It was inspired by Double Fine's Ebnesia Fortnite.
01:16:00
Speaker
a documentary. So I grab a photo. I show it to the guys. They've never seen it before. And we try to come up with a game pitch from it. Are you ready?
01:16:17
Speaker
Oh God, Dina. I saw this image today on Twitter. Wait, wait, wait. So remember, hold on, hold on. There's a lot of people that are not watching right now. They're listening. yes So a of baar would you please describe the image? I'm seeing two of the cutest baby hippopotamus maybe is that like yes to say it's the same baby it's just two photos of table okay right and it's the one that like seems to bite everything right it's the really fat chubby one but it's it's yeah it's it's really cute and one of them's like being blasted with water which is hilarious
01:16:51
Speaker
So love that her name is Mu Dang and you can find her on social media. She's taking over. Yeah. Like all over Asia, like everyone, everyone loves her. Right. And she's like a tiny little thing. what's not i love that You can find her on Twitter. You can find her on TikTok, wherever you get your local social media posts. She's just taking over the internet by storm. So I love Mu Dang. My favorite.
01:17:18
Speaker
i had I had two ideas to pitch to you guys and we can roll with anything else if you don't like both of them. okay um So at this point in time, I don't feel like Kirby from Nintendo has had a competitor.
01:17:32
Speaker
in the gaming space. So I'm thinking day could be that challenger that destroys Kirby. Uh, another, another pitch is let's take Mudang from the ground and put her in the sky. Let's make her a pilot like star Fox.
01:17:54
Speaker
shit Wow. Yeah. I'd love to spend a day in your brain, Tina. Honestly, I like it. that I think, I think that's pretty cool. ah you know Yeah. I kind of like that. Yeah. I kind of like the pilot kind of. Yeah. And I'm imagining, ah and that's the thing. i I think I don't know why the first thing I thought of was like, yeah, just like strap a cannon to them and, you know, make them like ah a cheap, like cheap version of blast toys and you know, but don't talk good morning.
01:18:22
Speaker
Yeah. We can have like, this yeah, we can have like the same effect that, uh, that, um, uh, it was like crazy game that came out, the Pokemon with guns game that came out, like how our can do like our own like power world what but with, with mood and, and like be like, yeah, just strap a strap a cannon to them. And, but I think the pie, the fighter pilot is, is a lot cleaner. Definitely. I love this. Yeah. an he when i want right and she like my airrations like It can be like a Titanfall vibe. Like, you know, they're running around like shooting things and then they like call their like, you know, fighter jet that comes in and swoops in. And then you've got like aerial combat too. Yeah. Makes sense. I really like the jokes opposition. Have you guys seen the Mario movie?
01:19:09
Speaker
Yeah. the latest one yeah christmas So for a booby cart, there's, um, there's a, there's like a little Luma, like a little star character that's really cute. And it talks in a little baby voice, but it says like the most unhinged, like, oh yeah, like depressing things.
01:19:27
Speaker
And I love the idea of just like a special operations baby hippo that like speaks like a little baby and is like, but is the most like lethal, um, really like brutal. yeah Yeah, there they are. Um, and, um, so they're like, okay. So what are they called again? Moo. Moo dang is her name. Moo dang. They're like, okay. Moo dang. We've, we've got.
01:19:51
Speaker
four hostages in this building and you know, you have to go clear out and they're like, let's go. And like, they've, they're strapped up to the nine shafts, like jumping up in the air and with all four of their feet, like kicking a door in and then <unk> like in a letter the yeah,
01:20:11
Speaker
but and can i have general was a style, style takedowns as, as she's, coming in and infiltrating and then executing these near dual terrorists. I can imagine the biting the, the, the, like the neck and just ripping it out everywhere, right? yeah just jewels a team Mortal Kombat style executions fatalities. so yeah yeah When you, when you, when you give like boys your idea, by the way, just like, come in and bite your head off and it just blows up.
01:20:45
Speaker
Tina led with putting them in a jet. This is a very diverse skilled hippo is what I'm hearing. You've got like infiltration, solid snake skills, Star Fox, air combat, and then like ah some sort of ground operation. What's the ground component? What's like the ground vehicle thing with a cannon strapped on like a mech, maybe a mech or like a power suit or something? I actually, no, let's, let's, let's, let's sci-fi it. Like let's supernatural it up, right? Let's say like every time like Mu Dang eats, like someone or an enemy, they get bigger and like, they just like the Kirby element, right? Growing into, and they could grow into this like crazy sort of bestial, you know, thing. But as soon as like they get like shot, like, you know, fat is like sliced off it and it returns back to Mu Dang. So like, that's the kind of thing it's like return to Mu Dang. It's the name of my next album. Wait, describe the fat component again. I didn't get that. Every time. so you the more kind of So the more enemies you eat without getting hit, the bigger you get, and the more kind of crazy you get. yeah um for you You guys play prototype. yeah like prototype do this different way Yeah. But then what ends up happening is like, as soon as you start getting hit, like you can see like
01:22:04
Speaker
it's fat being shed off and like it just kind of falls to the ground and starts like writhing. And yeah, this is, and we could, this could easily be horror. Great. It's disgusting it's disgust disgusting and horrific, but with that, he' dang Yeah, i but I want the juxtaposition of like the character speaking and sounding like a tiny little cute moodang, but like as they get bigger, like their voice stays the same. So they're still the little cute moodang, but they're this horrific flesh. absolutely yeah and can we they're like Can we do something with the fat, like the leftover fat that just sheds off? I think i think you could eat it for health.
01:22:46
Speaker
Okay, so you drop your own health and you have to re get it. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. but It starts to shrink. It starts to shrivel up. So like, you got to finish your combat over here and then jump over to the fat and gobble it up before exactly now it goes away. Yeah. Oh, I didn't. google ising and Not safe for work results.
01:23:05
Speaker
Yeah. yeah like enough um All right. So mechanically, what I'm thinking about is how I feel we've got like us, a kind of overarching, we're doing our top down, right? So I want to think mechanical basis symmetric. Yep. Yeah. Where are we at? Yeah.
01:23:22
Speaker
Well, no, no, not as in top down. So we're thinking top down design wise, right? So we've got a lot of our narrative and we've got a lot of our like reasoning sort of things, but I want to think about mechanical. So we're talking about having air operations and ground operations and stuff, but mechanically, what are we doing? Are we in third person? Are we in first person? I mean, it sounds like it should be third person if you want to see her throw, right? You got to see that right. I'd say like it's like a mission to mission basis. It isn't like open world. You know what I mean? Like the deeper you go into gameplay, the more kind of access you get. Like you've got like a best friend, which is an owl and they end up giving you like, like, you know, here's your fighter jet and you know, here's your like fat storage and you know, that kind of thing. And like halfway through the Q from double seven. Yeah, exactly. But it's, it's called Oh, and you know, they end up like getting like shot in the head and killed because the incentive of mood to also go like, to go like kind of full throttle, like mad. Yeah. No limits. No limits. Yeah, exactly. So you can only do that when it's like a linear kind of progression. So that's the game that we're making next. You guys, what the, our next game by the way, Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. This is Mudang. Mudang and Oh.
01:24:39
Speaker
I have an image in my head of Mudang like wounded on the ship in the mission where the owl dies and like stumbling down the corridor or whatever and like on the wall instead of like a medical kit it's just like a pocket of fat like a pouch and she like breaks it with her hippo elbow and then slurps it up and then makes it. Do hippos have elbows? I don't even know I think she's just going to like. I'm going to stick her hand in.
01:25:06
Speaker
Eric, you're doing a great job. What's this one? this isn't je send ows um isn that out i think it's just sleeping but and looks it's like my most important question My most important question for Mudang is we know what Mudang is doing, their operations aesthetically, are they are they or are they not wearing a tiny little hippo vest?
01:25:27
Speaker
with all of the little power um i I think we need that. Yeah. because you're talking about call but Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It needs to be like the most shit smooth ah fucking demolition ranch cry precision. One of those like real tactical kind of gear ups, but it's a hippo. Then you have your contrast because you're right. I think that's what a, where a lot of the humor will come from and they were on on their back feet. Are they wearing the combat boots?
01:25:54
Speaker
see them pause, like, that da right yeah i like his booze detracts I think, I think they get offered booze on the first mission and they're like, I don't, I don't need these booties. Totally. Oh my God. I love the idea of them getting offered a tiny little tree boat yes There's like a human support staff person holding tiny little booties and going, wait, who dang is a female, right? Yes. I can't tell. Okay. He goes, ma'am.
01:26:26
Speaker
thanks about right and just yeah oxxiagon city um Speaking of mechanics, I feel like we've got to incorporate the water here, like the getting wet part of being a hippo. How could we integrate that? Hippos are better when they're wet, I assume, like they're more comfortable. Is that how you activate like her super saiyan mode, you know, in combat?
01:26:50
Speaker
if they get wet. Okay. yeah Whether it's environmental or like, I think it should be wet from the blood of the enemies. So I think like i think it's I've got a moment here, right? Uh, like mood and gets captured and it's a moisture. It's water that, uh, gives them the, the energy, the power to like push them to the next level and give them the energy. So they're being tortured. Mudang's tied up being tortured in their little chair. Oh my God. And then they're torturing Mudang. Mudang's like, you know, getting tortured.
01:27:18
Speaker
And then, um, one of, one of the, the torturers, like, is it just like, as an insult, spits on Mudai, but that's moisture. And then big mistake busts out. goes ape shit That's how they get out. it' gets they spit on the That's great. I love that moment. That's perfect. right That's, that's.
01:27:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's a well scripted moment. And then that level is different because you're starting from like your bar is normally like half full to 75, whatever. But now you got to start from down here. You know, you gotta like quickly get some blood to moisturize. My GN would definitely give us a seven. I need to know. Do you think the way we're talking, Jeff Keeley would be on board?
01:28:07
Speaker
and i mean <unk>s gonna have this kimo yeah we like hip You might be like in the pitch game session be like, um but lost and then you spit on her like oh um Yeah, go ahead. No good. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow I think if I, if I meet Jeff Keeley at the BAFTAs next year and I, I suggest this game, I don't think I'm going to be fighting. beyond yeah yeah Yeah. I don't think you'd be able to get on stage with this man. i i not but I want to keep my career where I'm not going to ruin it by suggesting we make this mood and game. yeah
01:28:46
Speaker
yeah but like it you bor you know Yeah. Can we, uh, can we talk about names? I like high speed hippo. Okay.
01:28:57
Speaker
moved down i like I was just about to say that for a moment, slightly different. I was going to move. dang
01:29:05
Speaker
That's, that's more action inspired. So I think that works very well. ice feed her bill so it's return of the what but with We had, we had one earlier. I can't remember what it was. Return or something. It's where we did no we return something. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody in the chat, please remind us. i'll me say return one guys You know what? You don't see this in video games at all. And maybe this would be a first for this mood game, but I am intrigued by Bollywood physics and action films. Yes. yeah Yes. Who dang needs to move around the world like that? Like she's in a Bollywood. film yes that is Have you seen RRR? You guys? Yes. Oh my God. I want those limited limited animations as well. So like, if we don't doing a backflip where we're not seeing those, those arches and the legs and you know, the momentum, it's literally just like, yeah
01:30:00
Speaker
just it doesn't street Yeah. and You are able to accept it because it's, it's, it's the game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. hundreds of famous it just Yeah. the most Batshit one we've come up with. Oh, what's this Eric? What did Eric just link? This looks like a hippo commando.
01:30:20
Speaker
Oh my god, it's Mudang. That's the game. That's the game. For those who can't see, what is this? This is like, Mudang's in the jungle with a little fatigue hat and fatigue outfit. And ah he's in commando mode because he's got the binocular. This is an infiltration. Solid Snake. This is an infiltration mission, yeah. There's three mission, right? Not Solid Snake. Metal Gear Solid 3. Mudang can do all of them. Mudang is our best operative.
01:30:43
Speaker
Mudang has been in so many training pipelines. Mudang must be at least like 68. Learned all the flying, learned all the tank driving, learned all the infiltration. Oh my God. along the hippo would your question I don't know. Let's look at it. up You mean like turtles where they're like 200 years old. This is fantastic. By the way, I just want to say like the conversation has gone from literally like, yeah, layoffs in the industry to let's make an action. hipbo game in her hell Yeah, baby.
01:31:19
Speaker
This is all Tina. Tina did a pitch for fun and turns out it's a lot of fun. I think it started when we had Tim Schafer on and I was like, oh my God, we got to pitch a game to him just to see how he likes it. And we pitched kid on a leash, like a real life kid.
01:31:37
Speaker
and ah heart you know yeah it was kidney Yeah, yeah yeah that's that's amazing. That's a great idea. yeah we register What some of the others we had? It was called like unleashed or something. It was called tug and done.
01:31:53
Speaker
Oh yeah. And then we immediately realized that that was a bad name, Tina. and we decided yeah i we we We had some others. The one we had, um, where playing devs on yeah, the Taylor Swift one where you had to, uh, it was like a point and click adventure game where you were.
01:32:12
Speaker
trying to infiltrate a Taylor Swift concert. um But we didn't get the rights to her name. So it was like Swailer Mift or something like that. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift. Swailer Mift.
01:32:28
Speaker
Swailer Mift Yeah, it was just bo game he a man who was supposed to be like a combustible suicide bomb, like sort of a sci-fi assassin slave, I guess, like he was but he was ah forced to go kill himself as a suicide bomb ah organically, like a sci-fi concept. there Yeah, but. but it screwed up. Like, and instead it just shot fire out of his ass and turned into like, he has a weapon. So he practiced capoeira to like dance and point his ass at people and then blast them. And he went to go kill the people who forced him into this ah assassination, um year forced soldierhood. Well, I helped come up with this and hearing it out of context, like explained, like hurts. Yeah. I'm like hiding my face. I'm like, I'm not involved in this. I really wasn't. but
01:33:20
Speaker
i thought it was great you know I thought it was great, but but I guess like it was also very trepang. So it was motivated by that, which is about super soldier action and yeah super soldier action, shooter kind of stuff. Um, we say that, and but like we've got, we've got our hippo, you know, that's not really connections. Yeah. it's and that' like i said um but car like We do have a bit of a violent inclination with these pitches, but Hey, you know what? It, it works.
01:33:50
Speaker
You know, brought the violence. I actually did. I think I did. Yeah. I think that was me. So, you know, you were talking about fighter jets and stuff and I was like, no, it like lives off the blood of his enemies. yeah shes i it cat this but yeah as there that I'm going to read some ah quick questions and comments that we've got. Oh yeah. Some don't knows and stuff. yeah donations Okay. So snake in the garden, two Euro asks, how do we feel about wow?
01:34:18
Speaker
And I think by we, he means a wupa car. How do you think, how do we feel about wow? it aw of wholecraft yeah I mean, I've, I've always had a soft spot for it. So for me, it's always been a, it's always been a game to me that, I mean, I haven't played it for so many years, like so many years, but, um, I've always had a soft spot for what a Warcraft I've loved it. It's one of those games where it was the first time I had sort of.
01:34:46
Speaker
funnily enough, um, learn like raiding and like, you know, working with like communities and, and, and kind of doing some really like online play with, you know, which was really cool. So yeah, I, it took too many years of my life. Um, was honor I know I'm obsessed with while still, um, my last video that I just released was on how I've been addicted to it for 16 years. Um, like it's, it's a, it's a mental game. Um, yeah I a, I had a, I had a dream once when I was a kid, like of, you know, yeah, when I'm an adult, I'm going to like have my own place and just play wow for like hundreds for the whole day. And now you realize the reality of that. It's like, that's not possible. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, yeah. Wow is wow was something. Certainly. It's certainly one of the games of all time. For sure. So our next comment's from Nora Dean and the currency is try a TRY. I have never heard of that. He or she donated 55 of that. TRY you said.
01:35:56
Speaker
TRY Turkish. Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah. And they said sleep. I never sleep. I just wait in the shadows and I will unalive you all. Jesus. Everyone who sniffed the air that day in Siwa. I have no idea what this is in reference to. Assassin's Creed origins by yeah that was the opening cinematic that we did. Um,
01:36:21
Speaker
Uh, funnily enough, that scene was shot secretively. Uh, wasn't supposed to make the cut, but the director and the writer that we worked with were like, let's just do it. And we did it. Yep. And, uh, it made the cut for the opening. And it's one of the most quoted, uh, scenes for me. I don't have, which is great. It's cause it's metal as fuck. It really is good um real crazy.
01:36:51
Speaker
Okay. Next one is from dark Jackal for $5. And they say, thanks for the conversation. As always, great to listen in. Cillium is there a genre of game you enjoy, but would not want to make your own game in.
MMOs and Player Impact
01:37:08
Speaker
Yeah, MMOs. I was just thinking, dude, that's a beast I wouldn't want to dive into. I've had that genre to play was to make. Yeah. A hundred percent. So yeah, MMOs, MMOs, a hundred percent.
01:37:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's like every little piece of it is enormous and intense. The community angle, the design angle, everything, the business angle, the technical going, everything, everything. It's crazy sound. People really, I don't know. It's so risky, right? Businesses are going to be like, fuck, you want to make an MMO? Like it's, I don't know. That's that'd be wild. um anyway There aren't that many new MMOs coming out. I feel like since there used to be really, but like Ashran's call, I guess was No, I'm sorry. Azure and Scott ashes of creation is ah one of the ones. There's a lot coming out from Korea. Um, there's, uh, and the East, um, and there's a few in development currently, but the problem is, is they're so unbelievably expensive to make for you know a potential like terrible turnaround because people are so invested. Like what a war craft is about to hit its 20th anniversary.
01:38:15
Speaker
Oh my God. Why would I invest in another game when it could potentially be removed from stores in a few months when I put 20 years into this one game, right? So yeah the genre is just failing. I feel like maybe Riot's MMO that they're working on, their League of Legends MMO has the potential to be something special. That's because everybody has a community and a fan base towards it, right? Exactly, right. it's Yeah, it's it's a known IP.
01:38:41
Speaker
Yeah. so there' that do say Someone in the chat points out the dune one, which I don't think is like full on subscription. it's No, it's a survival game more than it is a right more which is a cool evolution of the MMO. Like if you want to look at it that way, maybe i would say came from there but but that's a cool angle. Yeah. Okay. I got another one snake in the garden for five.
01:39:02
Speaker
Euro says, what's your take on acting versus voice acting? Which do you prefer? You have such a great voice. Audio books, maybe? Future Civ narrator, perhaps? you I would I would say they are the same, requiring different skills, obviously, in regards to how you and tools that in in order to kind of convey the truth of each one. But yeah ultimately, again, you you know, I enjoy them both because you've you have to tell a story um as truthfully as you can. ah with voice acting, it's a lot more of the music of the voice and, you know, conveying it through there. Whereas with, with film TV, um, even theater, it's, you've got a lot more at your arsenal. Um, you know, the body, the eyes. Um, so yeah, I would, I think I don't have a preference. I think each one has their own strengths and like I can walk up to, um, I could rock up to like a, uh,
01:40:01
Speaker
a booth in my in my jogging bottoms, you know, and like kind of be cool with that. Whereas, you know, you can't necessarily do that on on a film set. The music of the voice was a beautiful way of phrasing it, of voice acting. like that's It's a really easy to understand way of it like because like i'm not a voice I'm not a voice actor. um'm I'm i' a sound designer, but with a lot of what I do with my work being you know being a YouTube creator and that being my full-time job, I'm doing a lot of voiceover work, but as myself and learning to speak
01:40:34
Speaker
like to read, um and this is, you know, if ostensibly acting, but like learning to to read a script um in a way that sounds natural is in a way like music and and learning to teach yourself that is um really rewarding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
01:40:51
Speaker
All right. Our next comment is from John Brooks. He provides 20 pounds. Thank you. He says origins is the only Assassin's Creed I have done to completion due to your performance as by, um, keep mispronouncing this Bayek Bayek. I needed to see him to the end, but did you ever slip into a Yorkshire Northern accent when you were, so when saying his name also in yeah yeah and then he wants to know if you have any pets.
01:41:19
Speaker
Uh, I don't have any pets. I used to have a goldfish. Um, the goldfish now is at, um, my, my parent-in-laws, uh, cause it's much happier there. Um, uh, but you know, I never slipped into the Yorkshire, but the amount of people who did, uh, with saying my name, yep. They'll just be like, Oh, what's your name? Bayek. You mean Bayek. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that happens a lot.
01:41:46
Speaker
Wait, where are you from in England originally? I'm from Hertfordshire. So London, but like again, England small, right? So yeah, it's definitely something. For sure. Nice.
01:42:04
Speaker
snake in the garden. Thank you again. Provides five euros and says husband reviewed your game on steam. And you personally replied with such grace that he was like, I'll play their next game. Great lead by example, by you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. That was something that, you know, I, I, I should, you know, do more and kind of have more time to do, but I really enjoyed, um,
01:42:30
Speaker
uh, like replying personally to people, um, especially who reviewed, cause it takes a lot of time for someone to actually write a review for you on steam. And it does, it makes such an impact, the gas, such an impact.
01:42:42
Speaker
um but at the time taken to even both negative as well as positive, like if it's actually thorough and it's really kind of, you know, putting it out there, like it's so, it's so constructive. So yeah I, I, I love reviews. I think reviews are, especially when given from, you know, from people, you know, communities who actually care about the medium, like, and who actually kind of want to, you know, give their, their thoughts on it. It's so useful. Nice.
01:43:09
Speaker
It's a huge deal. but Everybody right now go to your favorite game, especially if it's indie and give it a positive review and say why it makes a very big difference when you're trying to find funding makes a very big difference for motivation. Like internally, just go to it and it's, it's easy. and And well, put thought into it, you know, put the time in, but just know that it's very helpful. Yeah. Making the garden again with two euros says Tina, we don't serve you and we don't have to Stay on that. I think Snake of the Gardens, right? We we don't deserve Tina. now It's too good for us. she Look what she's created with this page. And from her again, two euros, she says, what game would you play to an at battle masters? Battle masters.
01:43:53
Speaker
What game would you play to win at battle masters? And that's the new show from second wind, right? We have a, yeah, we have a new show called battle masters, which is where, um, we compete in a game. So our first episode was, uh, in dark souls. It was for whoever's going to ring one of the bells, um, in dark souls first, whoever did that quickest one. We've got our other episodes that I can't speak to, uh, cause they're not out yet, but If you were to create a gaming challenge for a bunch of, you know, creators or voice actors to compete in, what do you reckon your challenge would be for you to kind of have an edge? What would that be? Oh, that's a good question. Um,
01:44:37
Speaker
yeah would have i just it would probably be, um,
01:44:47
Speaker
Oh man, that's tough. Um, this requires some time. ja you I think you froze. You just froze. You just look like you're judging us, which is fine. You you look a little judgmental. j Yeah. You don't have to mute yourself back a little bit. yeah It would have to be, it would have to be, I would say, um, Oh no, I don't know. Maybe it's like, for some reason, my my mind keeps going back to, you know, remember in Tekken 3, where I think there was in Tekken 3 where you had the, you played as Jin and you could like, it was almost like a story mode and you could go like, you could walk around and and do your thing and like you'd eat like the chicken, that kind of stuff. Like i probably, probably be like, who can eat the most chicken? and like I even think about it, but yeah, probably that. That's awesome.
01:45:40
Speaker
ah i would ah oh shit look i got that i dropped out i didn't you right up in our gri yeah the second force And it was like, sorry, I was just saying mate, it was taken force and like who can eat the most chicken would probably be the challenge that I would do. And like, try it like you would literally fight as many people as you can. And if as soon as there's chicken, like that's the first thing you got to get. And it's like,
01:46:00
Speaker
And even if you have like full health, cause I don't think you can eat it if you have full health either. So you'd have to find a way of damaging yourself to eat that chicken. And that's how you'd get a point. That's a great challenge. um right that down thank you I got a snake ass for more. I got a quick one. ah Play stalker shadow of Chernobyl and find the most cans of tourists breakfast. Also food themed, I guess.
01:46:23
Speaker
It's just this weird food item that doesn't drop too often. So you just have to go scavenging around, deciding if you want to kill your fellow stalkers to to get a chance of food. Making an objective within a game that's not really an objective. Yeah, yeah especially like an open world game that's fun to explore, I think.
01:46:41
Speaker
That's a theme we've kind of followed with a lot of our um future battle master episodes. It's like seeing how you can have those kind of secondary objectives that aren't based on the game's actual rulings, which gives a lot of room for the players to get super creative with how they justify what they're doing, which is fun. Amazing. Okay. Yeah. Nora Dean. Uh,
01:47:03
Speaker
provides in a 22 Turkish bucks. Thank you. It says, are we going to boat Turkey bucks? Are we going to hear your voice in any more games? I've got something cooking, but I cannot talk about. And it's very exciting. Oh my God. Hello. Hello. And Hello Kitty online. Let's go.
01:47:23
Speaker
Hello Kitty online. You guessed it right. No, it's yeah no i'm I'm doing quite a few. there's ah There's a few, but there's one that I'm really particularly really excited about. Hell yeah. and i No hits. Can't say anything. Nothing.
01:47:40
Speaker
they' not Oh my God. Fuck. All right. So that's pretty like perfect timing and also our last donation. Um, I just want to say thank you so much car for joining us. It's been super entertaining. Um, I just want to know what Tina was saying early on, like to hear how you're creatively directing your your company and um ahing ah pushing for the things that you are. It's really inspiring to hear. And I think a lot of people, especially in the AAA space, can learn a lot um and you know from what what you're doing. So thank you. Yes. And I don't say this to many people at all, but you seem like a genuine, kind, empathetic, creative. And I think a lot of developers will be clamoring to want to work at your company.
01:48:26
Speaker
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. It was really fun, man. Thank you, especially for answering the tough questions and doing a genuine more question. I wanted to end on if that's okay. I've asked you this on Twitter already, but no one else has seen it. Why did the snake deep throughout the tree and raised by wolves?
01:48:50
Speaker
and yeah What a good face. I don't know but I was there for it. Right on. ah Thank you. So on that note, I want to say thank you so much, as always, to Tina and Mikey for joining me and Eric, our producer in the back end doing his incredible work and Bubica for joining us. Thank you. This show is supported by your wonderful donations and Patreon support. So thank you to everyone who is doing that and to all of our listeners. And yeah, we will see you in the next episode. Bye bye, guys. Bye, everybody.