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Episode 130—Alexandra DiPalma and the Podcasting Revolution
121 Plays6 years ago
Today's guest is Alexandra DiPalma, freelance podcast producer to the max! Man, you're gonna love hearing all about her. @LSDiPalma on Twitter. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes and wherever you get your podcasts. Visit brendanomeara.com to subscribe to my monthly newsletter. Once a month. No spam. Can’t beat that. So… I’ve done 130 of these podcasts starting incredibly raw with the most primitive ways of recording till now where I even have a boom arm to hold up the microphone. Yet, yet...I ponied up some $200 to buy a podcasting class package from Creative Live (no affiliation) and in that bundle was a class by Alexandra DiPalma, the brilliant freelance audio producer whose list of credits includes Food For Thot and Seth Godin’s Akimbo. She also is the foreman of Seth Godin’s Podcasting Fellowship so you could say Alexandra knows her shit. Be sure to follow her and her shows on Twitter. Hit her up on the internets and hit up the show @CNFPod and @BrendanOMeara. Facebooky is The Creative Nonfiction Podcast. Give us a follow, like the page, join our little community of badass true story tellers. Rising tides float all boats. Thanks, moon. Thanks to our sponsors in Goucher College's MFA in Nonfiction and Creative Nonfiction Magazine.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
The Creative Nonfiction Podcast is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts in Nonfiction. The Goucher MFA is a two-year, low residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere, while on-campus residencies allow you
00:00:15
Speaker
to hone your craft with accomplishmenters who have pulled surprises and best-selling books to their names. The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni. Which has published 140 books and counting, you'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey.
00:00:38
Speaker
visit Goucher.edu forward slash non-fiction to start your journey now. Take your writing to the next level and go from hopeful to published in Goucher's MFA program for non-fiction.
The Creative Nonfiction Podcast Introduction
00:00:53
Speaker
Hey, hey, you're gonna find we do things a little different here at CNF Pod HQ. Your honor, I present to you, Exhibit Ruth.
00:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. I'm Brendan O'Mara and this is my podcast. The Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass writers, filmmakers and producers about the art and craft of telling true stories. I impact their origin story, their rocky roads, their habits and routines so you can improve your own work. Hey, be sure to go subscribe on the iTunes and wherever else you get your podcasts.
00:01:34
Speaker
visit BrendanOmera.com to subscribe to my monthly newsletter. Once a month, no spam, can't beat that.
Brendan's Podcasting Journey
00:01:43
Speaker
So then 130 of these podcasts starting incredibly raw, but the most primitive ways of recording till now where I even have a boom arm to hold up the microphone.
00:01:56
Speaker
Yet, yet. I ponied up some $200 to buy a podcasting class package from CreativeLive, no affiliation. And in that bundle was a class by Alexandra de Palma, the brilliant freelance audio producer whose list of credits includes Food for Thought and Seth Godin's Akimbo.
00:02:19
Speaker
She also is the foreman of Seth Godin's Podcasting Fellowship, so you could say Alexandra knows her shit. And we'll get to her. Oh yes, we'll get to her. But I felt like sharing with you the nature of my stupid baseball book. Longtime listeners know that I've been noodling with this baseball memoir, and the truth is, I haven't looked at it since about June.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah. If I have one skill with this book, it's that I'm totally okay, locking it in the vault and forgetting about it. I have no urgency with this book, though I probably should, given that the principal figure at the center of it is in an, you know, advanced age.
00:03:06
Speaker
My editor has given me brilliant insights to make it a halfway acceptable book, and I can't bring myself to even work on it. I'm having a wicked hard time focusing of what with the 40 to 50 hour a week day job in sales, what with the 20 hour a week commitment to the podcast, and what with the 49 hour a week commitment to slumber,
Brendan's Memoir Struggles
00:03:31
Speaker
I think it's a realization that though I'm on the 15th draft or so and technically done, using air quotes here, done, I'm realizing I'm closer to the messy, ugly middle that I so often ask my guests about than I am to the end, the coveted end when I can finally be done with it and move on.
00:03:52
Speaker
And that's really my great motivation to finish, so I can move on. This book is like a gangrenous limb or Dumbledore's hand when he fails to destroy the Horcrux. I don't know, man. Just wanted to share that. Share that I'm in the mud. I'm thinking of setting a 20 minute timer every day and picking away at it. You know? I don't know. Bird by bird, buddy.
Introducing Alexandra de Palma
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Anyway.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yes, Alexandra de Palma. She taught me a thing or two about producing a weekly podcast. Something I've been doing for over two years. Things like workflow. Things like asking the right questions. Defining success. Promotion.
00:04:32
Speaker
The more you know, the more you realize you have no idea, so reach for a frothy IPA. Hey, today's podcast is brought to you by Creative Nonfiction Magazine. For nearly 25 years, Creative Nonfiction has been fuel for nonfiction writers and storytellers, publishing a lively blend of exceptional long and short form nonfiction narratives and interviews.
00:04:57
Speaker
as well as columns that examine the craft, style, trends, and ethics of writing true stories. In short, creative nonfiction is true stories. Well told.
00:05:07
Speaker
Well, how do you like that? Alexandra de Palma, at LSD, I-P-A-L-M-A, LSD Palma, get it, on Twitter. What can I say? She's great, and I know you're gonna love this conversation as much as I did. Give it up for at LSD Palma, the great Alexandra. Alexandra the Great.
00:05:36
Speaker
where did you grow up and where did you come from? Basically I got started I mean I grew up in New like outside of New Haven Connecticut so close to the city and I went to Columbia I studied English it was kind of one of those things in college I like really didn't know what I wanted to do at all and
Transitioning from TV to Podcasting
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then I
00:05:56
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I decided I kind of wanted to go to grad school, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do for that either. So I just like knew that I didn't want to go to med school or law school. So I ended up in journalism school and I ended up just doing radio literally because I had a professor who said that she thought I had a nice voice and that I should take the radio class. So I was in, you know, I was studying audio production, um, in grad school and then
00:06:23
Speaker
I ended up going to Minnesota Public Radio, which is, um, as you can imagine in Minnesota, and it's like one of, it's one of the biggest public radio stations in the country, which I wasn't aware of, but basically for the, for the next two years, that was my first job. And I was working, um, as a producer for a daily news show. And that like has a lot to do with what you were talking about, about like just repetition and getting into a groove. It was very much where it was like,
00:06:51
Speaker
three hours of live radio a day where I was booking guests and taking calls and working with somebody who would eventually become kind of like a mentor figure, but she was like the host of the show. And that was definitely like, I had never done live radio before and I definitely wouldn't do it again in retrospect. It's just so much pressure doing something live. I mean, some people really, really thrive on that, but it was not something that I was feeling like I was really thriving on.
00:07:20
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And then I went and then I kind of was like working in radio for those couple of years. And then I moved to Miami to work in TV for both the reason that Minnesota was really cold. And I was kind of feeling like I wanted to explore like video storytelling because I had done a lot of radio stuff. But basically after a couple of years working in television, I decided I wanted to go back to, to radio and audio production. And like in that time that I was working in TV is when like,
00:07:47
Speaker
I guess when the serial thing happened, when podcasts really became a thing.
Freelancing and Public Radio Challenges
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So I ended up being really lucky. And I basically just went from TV and got a job at mid-roll, which is now mid-roll slash stitcher, as a podcast producer.
00:08:02
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I actually just about a month ago left my job at mid-roll to be a freelance producer. So I'm like full-time freelance for the first time ever and it feels amazing. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, it's cool. What were some early growing pains that you experienced as you first got into radio and audio and then we'll certainly get into how you transition from more steady work to the freelancer type lifestyle.
00:08:32
Speaker
So the growing pains, I think the growing pains probably came just from the fact that I was working public radio, which I love and I listen to every day. And I mean, I have so much respect for that medium, obviously. Um, but I think like, I was pretty young at that time. I mean, I'm still young, you know what I mean? But, um, it was like, I felt a little bit stifled by that, I guess environment, you know what I mean? Like it's very much,
00:08:58
Speaker
And it's very much like not just the stories that you're telling in public radio. They're meant to appeal to like a very certain audience, but it's also like really rigid. It's live radio. So it's like everything. There was like the newscast like on the six minutes, six minutes past the hour. And then there was like only, it was, it was just a lot of rigidity. And so that was kind of like a growing pain for me. And that has more or less, I mean,
00:09:23
Speaker
And that's what people say about podcasts versus broadcast radio a lot is there's just so much opportunity to be more flexible and creative and kind of appeal to like a really niche audience rather than appeal to like.
00:09:35
Speaker
everyone in Minnesota or everyone in the country, you know? That's the real power and the very, the savvy podcaster or blogger or anything, it's drilling down super, like super, super focused, like not just bodybuilding, but like vegetarian bodybuilders. I mean, it's got to be... Your podcast is a perfect example of that. I mean, it's not just like... It's very specific, you know what I mean? And do the great thing about your podcast and all of the ones that are
00:10:04
Speaker
successfully specific is that it's still broad enough to have a wide range of voices. But yeah, I think that's totally true. When you were thinking of transitioning from TV to audio, what was it about audio storytelling in that medium that just really sticks in your brain? This is what I really want to invest my time and my creative taste in.
00:10:28
Speaker
Right. Honestly, it's this was not going to be a very profound answer. It was more just like I was working in video for the first time and like editing video and working in like avid and all of these like editing programs. And not just not to mention that it was very in the era of like, you have to be like a one man band kind of thing. I kind of think that in journalism school, they've moved away from that a little bit. But like, it was the kind of thing where I just realized like,
00:10:54
Speaker
I'm way better. It's easier for me to go out and capture and edit audio than it is for me to go out and capture and edit video. You know what I mean? And this is something that I know I hate to say that it's a low barrier to entry of podcasting because that's very much misleading in a lot of ways, but relative to producing video, it's much more accessible, I thought. And so that was something that was much more appealing to me about it.
00:11:19
Speaker
Well, and also you can take it in any direction you want, just like podcasting as a format. There's no traditional gatekeeper. And is that something that really appealed to you, even as someone who went to graduate school for journalism at NYU, where a lot of those people want to go to like the New York or New York Times, these big media markets, but like podcasting, it's like, you can take it where you want it. Was that part of the appeal for you?
00:11:46
Speaker
I think I honestly now that I'm thinking of it now that you're asking me that and I think it's been so impossible to predict like what was going to happen with the podcast thing.
Opportunities and Challenges in Podcasting
00:11:56
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like and that's why I mentioned a little bit earlier like it almost was just lucky that like this happened that this was such like a boom and continues to be because I didn't
00:12:05
Speaker
necessarily know that there would be that much independence and freedom that was possible from podcasting. Even just a couple years ago, when I got back into it after working in television, I assumed that it was like I applied to mid-roll and stitcher and then some gigamlet and panoply, you know what I mean? All of the big networks.
00:12:28
Speaker
And that was still kind of how it went. And now a couple years later, I mean, I know so many producers who have left full-time jobs to be freelance or so many, a lot of them, and I can give you names, they would be amazing for you to talk to, but like who have left, you know, full-time jobs and started their own production companies or started their own ventures. And like, it's just very much a time where I think there's a lot of like creative freedom for people, but also.
00:12:52
Speaker
Like, which is rare for, you know, people, but we all talk to creative nonfiction stuff, like opportunities for people to make a good living on it, which is, you know, that's, that's all pretty recent. So I didn't foresee that happening. I didn't foresee any of this, but I mean, it's working out so far. Yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
And as a creator of sorts, what is some of the self-talk that you employ to maybe pull yourself out of a funk? What do you struggle with? We all do as artists. And I wonder, maybe, what do you struggle with and how do you pull yourself out of that so you can get the work done like you are?
00:13:31
Speaker
I end up struggling with projects, working on projects that I don't necessarily find as interesting as other projects I might work on. For instance, especially now being freelance, there's inevitably going to be projects that you just need to take to pay rent or whatever. Or projects that you sign up for and you think are going to be interesting and end up not being that interesting.
00:13:54
Speaker
And that happened a lot of the time when I was working at this full-time job. All that to say, there was a lot of stuff that was amazing and I loved it. But when I was in those situations, kind of the antidote for that
00:14:08
Speaker
for me would be kind of just like finding a friend, another like artistic or creative friend who wanted to work on a podcast project with me, you know, or like some kind of audio project. And one of the podcasts that I work on called Food for Thought is the one that like very much brings me
00:14:28
Speaker
a ton of joy and happiness. You know, like those are my friends and like we have fun. Like when we go to the studio, it's like we're drinking rose and it's like, I, we always joke. It's almost like our recording nights are like our nights out. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not at all work. Um, and so working on projects like that while you're at the same time, kind of working on ones that are not as creatively satisfying has been really huge. And even like, and so even some of the hosts, like one of the hosts of food for thought and I like,
00:14:57
Speaker
broke off and did a totally separate podcast, just he and I this summer. He's a poet, and his publishing house gave us a tiny bit of money to produce a podcast in tandem with his book. And that was like, it was just he and I with my recorder going to our friend's apartments in Brooklyn and recording them. Kind of like these conversations we're having right now. And so doing projects like that makes my barrier for doing uninteresting things a lot higher, or like my threshold.
00:15:27
Speaker
So what qualifies as interesting with respect to your taste? That's a good question. I really like I mean, the reason I really like working with Food for Thought, those are all they're all queer writers, mostly of color. And it's people who I just learn a lot from. So the quick answer would be like projects during which I learn stuff while producing it. You know, like I'm learning from the host, I'm learning from the people I'm working with.
00:15:56
Speaker
The, the ones that are less appealing to me are kind of ones where it's like, I'm working for a client who's, you know, who's like micromanaging or who, who I have to like answer to a lot of different people and don't have a lot of creative freedom. So like, for a little while, and I still do this.
00:16:13
Speaker
I was working on branded podcasts that were created in collaboration with a brand. And a lot of times just that process would be kind of burdensome. It was just dealing with agencies and clients who didn't know necessarily a lot about podcasting. And so that's this kind of thing that I guess I would qualify as less interesting to me. But the ones where it's people... Food for Thought, some of the other podcasts that I've been working on are with
00:16:43
Speaker
authors or writers or creatives who do things that I don't do and just from being in a room with them and hearing them talk, I feel like I learned so much.
Managing Projects and Workflows
00:16:55
Speaker
And with so many, as I imagine, a lot of irons and a lot of different podcasting fires and different workflows for different shows. Right. How do you keep that straight? How do you set up your days so you're able to keep all of that organized?
00:17:13
Speaker
Basically, I don't have any organization, like I don't do anything specific beyond like my iCal, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's just always been something where I can kind of like keep things in my head pretty, you know what I mean? Like if it's like with Seth's podcast, you know this from the Creative Live course, but I also produce Seth Godin's podcast called Akimbo.
00:17:35
Speaker
And that's just something much like your podcast, I'm sure. It's like a lot of these things, if they're projects that I've been working on for, you know, a year or more, it's almost like muscle memory. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I know every Monday I need to get this in, every Tuesday I need to get this in. And it's kind of like, I don't have any organizational methods, but I am kind of thinking now that I'm officially freelance, like I need to kind of maybe get more into that. Do you have any, do you have any tips on staying organized?
00:18:04
Speaker
Let's see, I love to employ a gigantic wall calendar with color-coded sticky notes.
00:18:11
Speaker
Oh my God, sticky notes. On the date, yeah. Well, kind of like when you and the Food for Thought host. Yes, exactly. That's what I was just going to say. You saw that in the creative life thing though. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah. And I don't plan out a whole year as much as I would like. That's a big takeaway for me was like that kind of that deep look because this is a ton of reading, a ton of research.
00:18:36
Speaker
Right. Sometimes it's like, I'm fortunate, right now I have a few in the can and several sort of batched interviews, but like, you know, oftentimes it was like sometimes a scramble like, all right, I'm talking to Alexandra today, you will happen to be the next Friday's episode. But sometimes it was like, shoot, I don't have one. I got to kind of scramble here. Right. Well, and especially for you, there's so much preparation involved in a lot of cases, you know, like reading books and
00:19:01
Speaker
in doing that kind of preparation. So the woman that I worked with that I mentioned at Minnesota Public Radio, who was like a mentor figure, she did like a lot of hard news stuff and I was producing that, but she also interviewed authors like almost every day. And she, like her reading schedule was, it's the exact opposite of like what I'm telling you, where it's just like a few things in an iCal. Like she would have like, just by nature of what she was doing, it was like, you have to read 50 pages of this book this morning and the 50 pages of this book this afternoon. Like it was just,
00:19:30
Speaker
It was so intense. That is basically how I've started to do it. My wife is super organized, and so she's kind of like, all right, break it down. And so having these color-coded things, like blue is when I have scheduled interviews, and a very bright color, I have stuck up on the deadline date. And then to be able to see
00:19:56
Speaker
three or four months out. That gives me a lot of relief to see that. So that's kind of how I do it. I'm not inherently organized. That's a really good idea though. I like the visual thing of that. Yeah. Definitely. All right. I'll try that. That's my answer. I'm going to get sticky notes.
00:20:13
Speaker
Yeah, well that was a big thing I wanted to talk about was the workflow thing was really, that really helped me, that part of your course too, how you ration your workload for each podcast, like just using Seth's as an example, his amazing Kimbo podcast. And how did you arrive at that kind of workflow? That way you don't get too fried on one project, I imagine. So how did you approach that?
00:20:43
Speaker
Well, with some projects that just like almost just logistically, that was the workflow that ended up making sense. So, for instance, Seth's podcast is unique in that he like, I'll have, you know, a ton of the actual podcast episodes that Seth will have sent me to edit and produce ahead of time. Like, for instance, I have like.
00:21:04
Speaker
10 of those in the can right now. But part of Seth's podcast is also doing a Q and A from the previous week's podcast. So like it's, it's essentially all of that. A lot of the production still has to wait until the week of, because we're getting that audio that week, you know, like the Q and A portion is, is coming from the episode that just aired. So essentially like it's just figuring out, I think like the main thing in that, that example, um, I thought was useful for the class because it was relatively simple. Like there were,
00:21:33
Speaker
more or less like three stakeholders. It was like me, Seth, and then the audio engineer who was mixing the audio. So it was kind of like just figuring out who is involved and what their availabilities are and what the deadlines are for each person. And that's kind of how we developed that little flow, where I edited on
00:21:55
Speaker
Thursday, get it to Seth on Friday. Now I'm not going to be able to break it all down, but it's kind of just figuring out who needs to be involved in the production and approval process, and then kind of going backwards from there, if that makes sense.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah, the reverse and like working backwards from your end goal. Yeah, that is such a great way to break it down. Like, all right, if I need to read a 350 page book this week, like your your mentor at Minnesota, it's like, oh, yeah, 50 pages a day. We'll get we'll get you there over seven days. So it's got to hit those marks. Yeah.
00:22:31
Speaker
For people who might be a little confused as to what a producer does, how would you describe and what are some of those tasks that a producer is doing behind the scenes and in the foreground?
Producer Roles and Behind-the-Scenes Work
00:22:45
Speaker
That's such a good question. And I like, my friend who's also a film producer sent me this picture of like a t-shirt and it's like, it's like musician plays music, director directs, like writer writes. And then it's like producer, question mark, question mark. Cause it's like, it just is so different for everyone, for every like, you know, industry obviously. But even like for an audio producer, it's so, it varies so much project to project. So like,
00:23:11
Speaker
Some cases like like sets actually would probably qualify as like a light production lift. Do you know what I mean? Like that's like
00:23:19
Speaker
Mostly because that podcast is pretty straightforward on its own. It's like one host who's on mic, kind of almost like an audio book type thing. So for that, the production is just editing it, adding, like, you know, adding some music, adding some sound effects, maybe reorganizing things or reordering things to make more sense to the listener where necessary. And then, you know, doing like the technical stuff, which is like mixing it, publishing it, like all the stuff that, you know, you don't really think about
00:23:49
Speaker
Who does that sometimes, you know what I mean? It's just like a lot of it's kind of I think of it in a lot of ways of like, in some cases, just getting it out the door, you know, like everything that is entails, like just literally getting it published and making the thing. But in a lot of other projects, like it'll be stuff that's much more creatively involved. So it would be like working with, um,
00:24:12
Speaker
You know, so with Food for Thought, when I, Food for Thought and I got together, the hosts of Food for Thought from this radio listserv, it's like basically, I don't know if you're probably part of it, but it's like, there's seemingly like tens of thousands of people in it now, but it's like, maybe I'm not supposed to be talking about it, but it's like people like in, it's like New York City radio people.
00:24:35
Speaker
But it's expanded much more past New York City, but basically like they put out a call for a producer They were like thinking of starting a show and in cases like this like I'll work with people to like develop a concept and develop like a format and develop Segments and kind of shape the way it's gonna sound so like it's it's kind of coming in from the very beginning and in some cases turning it from an idea into something that like
00:25:01
Speaker
would make sense and be viable and sound good in an audio format. So I think in my case, a lot of the stuff that I really like doing is that kind of more creative work of figuring out how to translate a writer's idea into something that would make sense as an audio piece or something like that. And then beyond that, for most of the projects, it's also just like when I was a producer in public radio, for instance, it was like booking guests, pre-interviewing the guests, figuring out the topics for shows, prepping the hosts,
00:25:32
Speaker
I don't know. I guess just everything is the answer, if that makes sense. Like everything but different things in every project. Yeah, it seems like it's in a way, it's like a film director who has to kind of know what everyone's job is, know where everyone's responsibility is, and really guide the ship. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like you're doing the planning and the executing and you might not necessarily, you get your shout out in the credits, but you've got to make sure that the talent can shine too. Right, exactly. And that is such a thing that
00:26:11
Speaker
people ask me a lot and like where they're like, wouldn't you ever want to be on mic? And for a little while I was always like, no, I definitely wouldn't because like there's, I've kind of changed my mind in that where I'm like much more open to that now, having done it a few times with like work with Seth and then even just like creative live stuff or something like this where it's really fun to be on mic. But like in, in another case, and I think a lot of producers probably feel this way, like nothing makes me happier than when
00:26:39
Speaker
I get into the studio or like get to a live show and I am in the audience and not like on the mic. You know what I mean? Like where there's like no pressure on me. And that to me, like, I think again, that's like some people thrive off of that and love that energy and like spotlight kind of thing.
00:26:56
Speaker
I think for me it's more just like I'm so thankful that I'm not in that position most of the time. When you were at mid-roll Stitcher and you were looking to make that transition to freelancing, what was that moment like when you are like, now's the time, Alexandra, make the leap?
00:27:17
Speaker
I think it was just a combination of like, even while I was at Middle Stitcher, like there were a lot of freelance projects that I was working on. And like those kind of would come in, you know, on a project by project basis, randomly, just like word of mouth kind of thing. And once, essentially it was like once those projects started picking up and once they started being more than just one-offs, like that were bigger, that were like more substantial, and especially projects that
00:27:45
Speaker
my full time job, the time commitment there would allow me not to take those. That's when I was really like, you know, I think first of all, it's like financially viable. And second of all, like, there's kind of an influx of projects here that will completely occupy my time. You know what I mean? Like, it's not just going to be supplemental to a full time job. It's like enough projects where it's like, this will be a full time job. And so that was pretty big. Also, I mean, I
00:28:14
Speaker
mentioned this, I'm sure, in the Creative Live class. But Seth and I, Seth is just the most generous and amazing person I've ever met, first of all. So from working on the podcast together, he and I started this podcast fellowship together, which is an online course teaching.
Podcast Fellowship and Encouragement
00:28:32
Speaker
It's meant for people who really, again, have never picked up a microphone before, people who want to just get their ideas out there, try a new medium. And it's like a seven week
00:28:43
Speaker
online course and the first, the first round of it was we had, you know, I think like 300 students. The second round, which just wrapped last week, actually, we had 500 students. So this is something I'm working on. I'm hoping to do more of that with Seth and like, I'm, I've really liked like the online class thing. It's been really cool. So that, that was another factor and kind of wanting to focus more on that.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to talk about that too, like how you got into Seth's orbit and started working on akimbo and then what the experience of working on the podcast fellowship class has been like. So how did you guys meet and start to work together? Yeah. He, so funny enough, like that was something, that was a project I was assigned to when I was at mid-roll. It was just kind of like, it was like, um, we're producing this podcast with Seth Godin and
00:29:36
Speaker
It needs a producer. And I was completely just assigned to it. And at the time, I think Seth probably knows this. I wasn't very familiar with his work at all. I obviously Googled him, but it was the situation where I'm assigned to so many different projects. There were so many of those kinds of projects throughout my time at mid-roll. And this one, in a lot of cases, as I'm sure
00:30:01
Speaker
Which is even why I appreciate us talking like this right now. I'm going to sound like such an old person, but it's like so much. I was working so closely with so many people and it was just like the whole, I would produce the whole podcast with somebody over email, basically. You know what I mean? Or not like with that person, but it was like people, you know, I feel like it's just so, um, so much easier to like be talking over email or over Slack a lot of the time.
00:30:23
Speaker
But so Seth, Seth and I like connected over email. Like I was like, I'm going to be the producer for your podcast. He's like, come to my office. He lives outside the city. He was like, I'll make you lunch and let's just chat. And like, it was so, it was just so not like what most people, how most people approach stuff like that. And so we went, I like had lunch with him and we just really like, I don't know. We just really hit it off and he, he was really, um,
00:30:49
Speaker
generous about kind of like his whole thing is like helping people level up, like people that he works with or people who he, yeah, I guess people he like worked on projects with, he really is committed to like helping other people thrive. So when we were working at Akimbo and we had this like great rapport, basically the story of the podcast fellowship is that like a family friend who was in college approached Seth, called Seth and was like,
00:31:15
Speaker
I really want to make a podcast, but my mom is going to force me to get a summer internship instead. And Seth was like, well, you should just don't get the summer internship. Seth thinks summer internships are bullshit. And he was like, don't get the summer internship, just make the podcast. And the family friend was like, but my mom, like my mom doesn't think it's like legit enough. Like I need like an official channel. You know what I mean? Like I need something where I'm going to like come away with it with like a certificate of some sort.
00:31:40
Speaker
So Seth literally like that day called me and was like, I think we should put together an online podcasting course where like at the end of it, people, I mean, we give people a certificate, it's obviously nothing from a school, but it's just, it's something that like has structure and is official and like gives people a framework in which to do this podcast thing. And like the thing that we've found that's been so like, you wouldn't believe how many of those students are people who are like,
00:32:08
Speaker
I've been wanting to start podcasts for the last three, two or three years, but I just like have never pressed record. And like, I'm curious to hear how you started yours. We'll talk about that in a sec, I hope, but like it was, it was just like a matter of literally telling people.
00:32:24
Speaker
press the record button and then press the publish button and like that was it. You know what I mean? Like other than that, like obviously there was a lot of technical stuff that we talked about and there was, you know, he like Seth and I prepared some really great lessons and everything, but more or less it's just giving people the opportunity to
00:32:43
Speaker
do it and to give them the form in which to do it and that's very much like part of Seth's philosophy and something that I've taken away from him so much which is like and the way he says it is like just ship it like ship ship ship which means just like put your stuff out into the world like don't worry about whether it's perfect don't what like if you're blogging just press publish like if you're making a podcast just like put it on iTunes and like that's very antithetical to some people's
00:33:13
Speaker
own philosophy I think or like what they've been taught or what they
00:33:17
Speaker
I don't know. I guess it's just like it's very kind of natural to most people to be like, this needs to be perfect before I put it out into the world. But I think when you take that element away, it just allows like such a new level of productivity and creativity. Well, one that's adhering to that sort of ethos, and this is quoting Seth, is a very nice way of hiding. And I'm sure he said that to you at some point or another. He has. Yes.
00:33:45
Speaker
If it needs to be perfect before it launches, I need the right microphone. Should I be on SoundCloud or the other one? Right. Exactly. My cover art's not right. My intro music isn't good. You had asked what I really learned from the whole process. When Seth approached me about this, I had never taught
00:34:11
Speaker
Any, I had never taught an online course. I'd really never taught any classes. You know what I mean? Like I had done some one-off stuff here and there, like helping friends learn how to podcast, but I obviously of course said yes immediately. Like, cause it was Seth asking me, like, and Seth is the kind of person where it's like, if Seth is asking you and Seth believes that you can do it, like you just have to believe that you can too. You know what I mean? Like if he thinks you can, then you probably can. Um, but it was a situation where he was like, all right, let's do it.
00:34:37
Speaker
put together the curriculum, put together all the lessons and like, I'll review them. And like a couple weeks had gone by. I was traveling. Like he knew it was basically just like after a couple of weeks of me, it wasn't that I wasn't spending time on it. It was the kind of thing where I was like in my Google, I was, I was working on this nonstop, but I didn't know exactly how to do it. And I didn't feel like it was perfect. So I was really hesitating, sharing it with Seth yet. And he just like called me and he was like,
00:35:06
Speaker
I can tell that you're scared. He's like, I know I can tell just the fact that you haven't sent me anything. I know you well enough to know that you're not blowing this off. He's like, I'm guessing that you probably have a lot of this done. You just don't think it's perfect. And he was like, you just need to get over it. Just get over it. Put it all together and send it to me and we'll go from there.
00:35:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's just like something as simple as that. And I sent it to him and it was, you know what I mean? It was, it was, it was fine. Everything was great. Like it was just, it's just the whole thing of like making sure that you don't have, it doesn't have to be perfect. Perfect. How has working with him from your first chance encounter at that lunch at his house and then through a Kimbo and then this fellowship, how was working with him to use his term leveled you up?
Building Confidence and Overcoming Technical Challenges
00:35:57
Speaker
I think it's a combination of working with him has made me feel, and this is like a personal thing, I guess, but I think it's just given me a lot more confidence. You know what I mean? Not just because it's something where it's like, if Seth Godin believes in me, then that matters. It's more just like, he's somebody and he always, you'll probably know this through
00:36:17
Speaker
you know, his work. It's just like when you feel seen by somebody, it makes you feel like much more capable of doing other things. And I think he's also somebody that the other thing that has like really been a level up moment is he's a really big thinker, like he he's like, really big picture. So it's like, so he's the kind of person like, like where, when I talked to him about going freelance, it's like,
00:36:44
Speaker
Do you want to just be doing, you know, like cool jobs that are one-offs or do you want to be somebody in this industry who is like making big waves? You know what I mean? And I, I don't have answers to that yet. You know, like this has all been in the past month, but he's somebody who, who really makes you think like, not just about the next project, but about like what your bigger impact is going to be. And, you know, he also talks about, um,
00:37:12
Speaker
not just what's going to like make a difference for you. I know his, his stuff is really focused on kind of like making a larger impact as well. So that, that's something that I've been like really thinking a lot more about since I've, I've been working with him. Um, and I, I randomly, like, I never would have expected this, but I'm taking his alt MBA class in February, which is also open to anybody. Um, I mean, you have to apply, but it's like, that's, that's another thing where it's like forcing you to think much bigger picture.
00:37:40
Speaker
And I think that's kind of what he's done for me. One of the things that he especially is good at, and I don't mean to constantly talk about him, but I think it's tangential. It relates back to you. And I think a lot of people, they don't think that they deserve success or money or notoriety or a big audience. And that's their own limiting belief.
00:38:04
Speaker
have, you know, you clearly, you know, you work with a podcast fellowship with very, you know, entry level people, and then you're working with Seth, who really wants to break those barriers down. Have you experienced that personally, where you feel like that maybe that kind of degree of success and visibility is for the other person, the anointed, and maybe not me? Yeah, I definitely, I mean, I think I maybe was more inclined to feel that way prior to like,
00:38:34
Speaker
working with Seth and feeling like very seen by him, you know? But it is just like, I think, I think, I think in the, that's the other thing though, it's not, that's not just a Seth thing. I think for me, that's something where it's like, I mean, I'm 31 and it's just something that has really, I mean, again, not particularly profound, but like really comes with age, you know what I mean? Like where it's like, and not just age, but experience where it's like, there were so many situations where
00:39:04
Speaker
I'm mostly speaking professional, I guess, but professional wise, professionally, but like situations where I felt like I was kind of like faking it or didn't know exactly what was going on at all times, you know what I mean? Or I was like in a room where I didn't feel like I was like commanding the room because I wasn't, because I didn't have that experience.
00:39:23
Speaker
once you feel like you have a certain level of experience and you are confident in that, it just makes you, I don't know, it just gives me a lot more confidence professionally. During the fellowship, the first one and the second one that just wrapped up, what are the common questions and problems that you find that people are having as they're trying to get started?
00:39:47
Speaker
the biggest thing is like audio editing, which is like, you know, like once we get past the thing that I was talking about where it's like press record and press play and press publish, it's the technical stuff where it's like figuring out how to make it really sound good and not super amateur. And that's just something that like, you know, in seven weeks you can learn some basics and stuff, but as you know, it's like once you do something week in and week out, that's when it really,
00:40:14
Speaker
starts to make sense and starts to sound better and you can get into your groove. But I think the most common thing is people just get frustrated that it's as hard as it is, you know, and that it's like not, it's not going to happen after a couple weeks that you're going to be a great audio editor. So that was like, I think, one of the biggest challenges for people. But otherwise, it was just like a situation where the group was really supportive of each other and
00:40:39
Speaker
you know, all the students were placed into like little cohorts, like little groups of like 10 or 15. And so, and we had coaches, so there were like people in addition to Seth and I who would help. But yeah, I think, I mean, I think everyone came away with a feeling pretty positively about it.
00:40:56
Speaker
the note you just said about editing is something I have in my notes too. And when you were during your CreativeLive class, you kind of broke down the five sort of big podcasts and we can mention those in a moment. But with respect to interviewing, where you said like editing is really key there and it goes beyond just maybe taking out like little um snaps as I like to call them or lip smacking.
00:41:20
Speaker
But with, say, interviews that get a bit verbose, a bit long, even if it's an engaging person, you're like, these can tend to benefit from editing. And my issue, and I suspect maybe other people do, is like, OK, so you and I are talking for an hour today. And to honor your time, sometimes I feel like I don't want to
00:41:44
Speaker
clip 15 minutes from that interview because she spent an hour of her valuable time with me. Why would I cut that audio? How do you gauge what's, this comes from taste, personal taste, but how do you gauge the edit and does that take away from the time that someone spends or does that actually honor them more because you're getting to the real concentrated great bits of the conversation?
00:42:09
Speaker
Right. I think, I mean, that is so funny that you put it that way. Not funny in the sense that I know that that makes so much sense. But to me, I would feel like I feel like it's honoring people more by making them sound better. I feel like sometimes an edit can just make people sound better. You know what I mean? Like more concise. So do you air, you air your interviews like in full?
00:42:31
Speaker
Just about. I try to hold myself to at least edit it down 10%. Yeah. And you're a good interviewer. You're a really good interviewer. So a lot of that also has to do with being... Some interviewers aren't as good. So in that case, you end up having to cut some stuff out. Right. But I don't think that editing takes away from the commitment or the time that people give. Because I always do find, as I mentioned,
00:43:02
Speaker
With Food for Thought, we really do two, now that we have, we do two or more hours of conversation that then get edited down into 50-ish minutes, 50 minutes to an hour. It's definitely a situation in which I think if we didn't love doing it as much, it would make more sense to not give that amount of flexibility. Do you know what I mean? If we didn't have so much fun recording with each other, it would be get in the studio for an hour and I'm just gonna air that.
00:43:32
Speaker
But I do think that it really makes a difference like being able to
00:43:37
Speaker
I don't know, being able to kind of pull out the real nuggets of those conversations that are the most meaningful and that are the most, not just concise, but something that like, even listen to me right now, like I'm rambling a little bit. Like in people, even when people are good talkers or good interviewers, I just find that there's places where like you lose your way or the conversation like takes a little turn and takes a little while to get right back to where it needs to be. So to me, and again, as you said, matter of personal taste.
00:44:04
Speaker
And as a podcast producer, I probably should. I can't.
00:44:08
Speaker
Listen, I don't know why, even the shows I love, if they're two hours, like if it's two unedited hours of a conversation or two and a half hours of, like, and as you know, some of the biggest, most popular and beloved podcasts are exactly that format. You know what I mean? Where it's like two people talking, raw, unfiltered, unedited, and that's part of the appeal of it. For me, I don't know what it is. I just, I don't gravitate towards those conversations as much. So I think I end up not producing those conversations as much.
00:44:37
Speaker
And you also, in your class, you talk about perspective, expertise, and personality as being paramount to a podcast, a big foundation, if you're talking about the pyramid of a podcast.
Personalization and Creativity in Podcasting
00:44:49
Speaker
And ultimately, you came away and you say, how can you put more of you into a show? In your production, in your coaching, is that something that you're constantly trying to pull out of people?
00:45:03
Speaker
Yeah, and like, honestly, I think of it even just something as small as like the music that you use in your podcast, like that's very you, you know what I mean? Like, that's very unique.
00:45:13
Speaker
I mean, you specifically, I like love the music that you have. Like it's like very, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I, you don't hear that kind of music in that many other podcasts in a very good way. Um, it's usually, I feel like it's like, you know, some canned thing that people got. I don't know whether you got that for free off the internet or not. There's some great free stuff on the internet, but it just, it just, that even just something as small as that really adds personality. So I definitely try and bring that out in like any of the shows I'm doing where possible. Um, but.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it just becomes increasingly, and this almost goes back in a way to what we were talking about before, about like focusing on a niche and like figuring out, you kind of are only really going to be able to speak to your own audience, like the people who would be, who are interested in, in you, you know? And like, it's not very sustainable, I don't think, to
00:46:03
Speaker
kind of not put on another personality or it really only is sustainable to me to do a podcast like the one you're doing or like a food for thought that is like weekly multiple seasons when you're being really authentic and like being yourself or the host selves in that podcast. So I definitely encourage people to like lean into their quirks, lean into their weirdness, lean into like their like niche interests.
00:46:30
Speaker
and kind of like build an audience that way. And it's definitely like a balance. Like in food for thought, I keep referencing food for thought because that's just like my favorite project. Yeah. It's a great reference. Yeah. And it's like, it's like some of the hosts, for instance, even there, there's four hosts in me. So it's like a team of five. And one of the hosts really like is interested in being as broad as possible. Like they want to appeal to like a really, really broad audience.
00:46:56
Speaker
And some of the hosts want to appeal like they're like, I don't care if anyone listens to this show. I want to talk to like.
00:47:03
Speaker
this one queer scientist, like one of them is a queer scientist and that's like he loves talking about science and like really kind of like esoteric things but like the combination of those like when you have people who can appeal but who can do both and that's what's valuable about having multiple hosts in some cases like then we can kind of reach the broader audience in some cases while also kind of like satisfying these little niche interests if that yeah
00:47:28
Speaker
I love the question that you have people ask of themselves. You have four, but the one that really stuck out to me at the very end was how would you define success or what will success look like to you? I would say how important is that question when you pose it to your potential clients, but also for you as you've struck out as a freelancer. What is success looking like for you and how have you defined it and how are you trying to manifest it? That's a really good question and one that I've
00:47:58
Speaker
been thinking about, I need to still get more thought to. But I think, I think when I probably did that Creative Live class, I think I might have used an example or even if I didn't, but so the podcast that I was talking about that I did with one of the hosts of Food for Thought called Junk, that was a podcast that to me was like, successful in the sense that Tommy, the co-host and I, or the host had like, we had a great time producing it. Like not many people at all listen to that podcast. There's probably like 2000 people per episode. You know what I mean?
00:48:28
Speaker
It's not like nothing, but it's definitely not like what we were doing with Food for Thought. So like for each project, I think success looks a different way. So for that at that moment in time, like that creative outlet was a successful podcast for me. Like now it's definitely something where I am hoping to like look and do like kind of like the classic, like I want to be making a podcast that
00:48:55
Speaker
a ton of people listen to that like makes the iTunes charts. That's like breaking barriers in some way, in some way kind of like innovating by either doing, but innovating in the sense like a kind of project that I haven't worked on yet. So like, let's say like a really long form investigative piece, like an audio documentary type thing. Like I want to be working on new types of projects that are new for me. So the, definitely the barometer of success has been changing. Um, but in the end it still goes back to
00:49:25
Speaker
what we were talking about equaling an interesting project. To me, it's also a success when it's working with people, honestly, who I'm just learning from and who I enjoy working with. Really, the thing that is so amazing to me about Food for Thought is
00:49:43
Speaker
We're constantly getting messages from queer people, not just in the Midwest, not just in middle America, but everywhere being like, I don't feel like I have any queer friends and listening to the podcast makes me feel like I'm at brunch with my besties. Or even just stuff where it's like I haven't understood my own sexuality or
00:50:04
Speaker
I haven't taken time to think about what I like and what I don't like and just all these kinds of really personal notes that we get from people who listen to the podcast and fans about how it actually impacts their life. And so success for me would be working on more projects like that that kind of have a positive impact on people.
00:50:25
Speaker
say a show isn't getting the kind of traction you want. How long should somebody stick with a podcast maybe before quitting and finding a new project? That's a good question, too. And actually, I feel like even in this last round of the podcast fellowship, the insight from some of those students gave me insight into the answer to this question. And that's
Podcasting as a Creative Outlet
00:50:48
Speaker
And this is something that Seth also talks about. So Seth has more or less, in some cases, compared the blogging that he does or blogging as a creative outlet and blogging as an outlet. I don't know if he would ever phrase it like this, but I'm phrasing it like this, build a brand or build a precedence or build a place where you can put your ideas and kind of an identity. Podcasting is, in some cases, like that. So I think if you want to approach a podcast that isn't necessarily getting a ton of traction,
00:51:17
Speaker
getting a huge audience it's like very worthwhile to think about the things that that project is still giving you. So in some cases like our former students or the students who had just graduated from the class were saying like they yes they definitely like learned how to record and do some rudimentary editing but like the main thing is that
00:51:38
Speaker
They got some skill, like they're developing skills that they really didn't even expect to develop. So, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well, where it's like, they are better communicators in their regular lives. Like they've been doing all this thinking about how to interview people and they're having better conversations with people, like people who they've known for a long time. You know what I mean? Like it's like people in their family or their friends, like now they're finally like.
00:52:00
Speaker
asking those questions that maybe they thought were dumb, but aren't dumb. And it's just like kind of having the confidence of being an interviewer or communicating or even just like, again, like confidence to just put something out there even if it's not perfect. So the answer, I think, if it's a project that's not getting the traction you want, is to really think about like, is this providing me with anything?
00:52:24
Speaker
Well, say they actually have like a really, they do have a good show, a good vision, a good niche, and maybe it's still not getting it. Maybe it's a matter of marketing and promoting. What strategies have you used to help really increase the visibility of a show? So maybe it will hit that critical mass where on published day, it's getting several thousand and it's into perpetuity.
00:52:48
Speaker
I need to I really I don't think there's any one answer to this. I think like the models that I've seen and probably the one that would be most relevant to people who were trying to reach like a conversation like this is in this and I can only speak to it peripherally because I'm not the one who really did it. But with food for thought food for thought is you know
00:53:10
Speaker
a vehicle for all of like myself and the host. And we have, we have like, you know, a ton of listeners and a ton of loyal fans. And that audience was built literally from our host Fran Toronto doing like online social media stuff. Like it's like Fran, when we launched the podcast, Fran did like, uh, put together, you know, did a Twitter account, did an Instagram account, did a Facebook account. And like he is, he's just somebody
00:53:36
Speaker
who is like an, he's kind of like an online influencer type. He is, that was his job. He was like a social media manager for some places. And he, he just kind of like built this brand from scratch. And he, but like the thing that people can, I think take away from that, even if you're not like a social media person. And this is what so many people have told me about food for thought is like Fran also called in favors to like all of his creative friends. So that means like,
00:54:06
Speaker
our cover art and our website, like he got that done for free from friends. You know, it was probably like a tip to tap thing. Like he helps them out in some way, but he leveraged like his own resources.
00:54:17
Speaker
to make us right off the bat appear really legit and professional. So like when people see our website or see our cover art, like it looks like even from the beginning, like episode one, it definitely looked like higher production value than it already was. He like hired again, and this was a friend of his, like a photographer to do kind of like social assets, like take pictures of everyone and like, you know, put, get, get photos for our website. And I think like
00:54:46
Speaker
It was just, it's just a matter of like, so the takeaway there for me is kind of like leveraging the resources that you have and hopefully talking to creative friends or people in your life who can help you, I guess like create that online presence. It almost sounds silly because it's like, it's like we're producing a podcast, but in a lot of cases, it really is that marketing thing of like getting it, just getting the visibility. So I think starting like the social media accounts, like trying to, you know,
00:55:15
Speaker
get the good cover, not good cover art, but make it just like, I don't know, kind of present it as professionally as possible so that like when people listen to it, it seems, it seems legit.
00:55:26
Speaker
And guest outreach is huge, too. Huge, yeah. And I love the do and don'ts list that you compiled for your CreativeLive class. And I wonder if maybe you can speak to that. What are some things that can maybe make a guest say, especially as you start leveling up and getting to the titans of your industry? Some of them say like, OK, yeah, I'll go on the show versus like, eh, this person's kind of a, they're an amateur right now. Yeah.
Professional Communication and Building Relationships
00:55:53
Speaker
I mean, honestly, I feel like you would be better at answering that than I am. You are completely embodied. Basically, you start a show from scratch, and you have built up. I forget what episode. I was listening to episode 120 or something. And you have really big name guests. And then you also have guests like me, who are not big names. But it's also, I think it's kind of basically just
00:56:20
Speaker
putting that ask out there. Like after you have a body of work, literally just sending a relatively professional email that makes the guest, like shows the guests that you know who they are and that you've done some research and kind of not flatters them necessarily, but it's just like, you know, this is not coming from out of left field. Like you've thought about why there would be a guest on your show and so many times, and again, I'm going to ask you to talk about this a little because it's like, you'd be surprised how many people say yes, right? Like it's like,
00:56:50
Speaker
I think it is just like in this conversation when you were like, thanks for taking time on a Saturday. Like, this is fun. You know what I mean? I think that most people would think that it's fun and, you know, in a sense an honor to be able to talk with someone about themselves and their work. And just that is, I think, like, you know, we'll get you a lot of guests. But did you ever like expect that you were
00:57:14
Speaker
gonna kind of build this roster of guests that you have? No, I definitely did not. But I always wanted to. That was kind of always the goal, to be able to talk to the people who I... Part of the ethos of the show too is I only have people on who I deeply admire.
00:57:35
Speaker
It's not going to ever be a takedown show or I'll read a book and take it down or something and have a guest on. It really is a celebration of the work. There are titans within the creative non-fiction genre who I deeply admire.
00:57:54
Speaker
Not that I've spoken with Cheryl straight or Elizabeth Gilbert yet They're kind of some of the big fish that I've throw it throughout lines, too And they've been like they're like I can't really do it right now, but you know whatever here I'm just drip by drip doing it every week and eventually it'll happen Yeah, yeah, but it was
00:58:12
Speaker
I'm forever thankful for, let's see, I guess it was episode 14 when I had Glenn Stout on the show. And he's the series editor of Best American Sports Writing. And he's written a ton of great historical sports books. And he's one of those just generous figures who you can just be a little guppy in the pond asking to talk to him and he'll talk to you. And having him allowed me to then bigger bait to bait bigger fish.
00:58:41
Speaker
And so that little hexagon, that's what Seth calls it, that little hexagon of influence. It's true. Yeah. And then being able to say, then go to other people and just be, yeah, like Mary Carr has been on this, Roy Peter Clark, Ted Conover, Pulitzer Prize winners and all this, Susan Orlean, David Gran.
00:58:57
Speaker
And you can go right down and listen and be like, oh, okay, there's a body of work here. Spending this hour isn't going to glitch. It probably won't be a total waste of my time. Right. Of course not. Exactly. And that's really what it is. It's almost proving, even as many people as there are who just are happy to talk about themselves and their work, it's very clear from, even when you email me, it's very clear that you have done the work and that it's going to be a treat to talk to you as well.
00:59:28
Speaker
And it has been. Fantastic. I know you've got a hard out right now, Alexandra. I do. Where can people find you online to get more familiar with your work and follow you on social if they don't already?
00:59:40
Speaker
I have a website, it's alexandradepalma.com, but I'm on social media at L-S-D-I-P-A-L-M-A, L-S Depalma. Fantastic. Well, Alexandra, thanks so much for the time and hopefully we can have maybe a round two down the line. I would love to. Let me know if you're in Brooklyn. Okay, will do. And I'll talk to you soon. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Brendan. You got it. Take care. Have a good weekend. Bye. You too.
01:00:06
Speaker
Mmkay. That was good. That was real good. Gotta love those Brooklyn based producers. Just saying. Be sure to follow her and her shows on Twitter. Hit her up on the internet and hit up the show at CNF Pod and at Brendan O'Mara. Facebooky is the creative non-fiction podcast. Give us a follow like the page. Join our little community of badass true storytellers.
01:00:34
Speaker
rising tides float all boats man thanks man oh I see what I did here I wrote rising tides float all boats thanks moon here I was thought it was a typo but it was a really good joke so good that I thought it was typo do you like the show do you consider taking less than five minutes of your day and leave a review on iTunes
01:01:04
Speaker
and share the episode with a friend. Tag the show on Twitter and Facebook and I'll be sure to join in the festivities. What else? Focus, man. I gotta focus. But I'm gonna let this groovy tune take us out and maybe I'll have some news on the progress of that book next week. It's a mess, man. It's a real mess.
01:01:24
Speaker
So just know that if you feel crappy about your work, there's a podcast host on the West Coast who feels even crappier about his. So in the meantime, if you can't do interview, see ya.