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Episode 483: Off the Page and Into the Ears with Julia Barton
370 Plays1 day ago
"That is the main difference between storytelling for the ear and writing, is that the cost of revisions is so much higher," says Julia Barton.
We have Julia Barton. Julia was the third hire, I think I have that right, with Pushkin Industries, the podcast giant founded by Malcolm Gladwell. She was the executive editor of Pushkin and helped develop Revisionist History and Against the Rules, the latter by the journalist and uber best seller Michael Lewis. She, quite literary, edits with her ears. Now she consults on stories as part of her company RadioWright.
I met Julia briefly at the Power of Narrative Conference in Boston, where she’s also a Nieman Fellow, as her talk followed mine. I did not attend her talk and I feel great shame about that, but my battery was in the negative after my talk and I just needed to disappear, the plight of the introvert. I could have learned a LOT since her talk was about the grammar of audio stories. I atoned by inviting her on the podcast to talk about her auditory journey.
So Julia has a cool newsletter called Continuous Wave, which is a weekly newsletter exploring the forgotten history of broadcast and all electronic media. It’s very specific, which is what you want from a newsletter. She’s the founder of RadioWright, she is @bartona104 on IG.
We talk about:
- Editing audio stories and how it’s different than print
- What’s the ideal length for a podcast be it narrative or interview
- The cost of revisions
- Scratch mixes and dry mixes
- Animal vs. Mineral editing
- Picturing the ideal interview in your head
- And more!
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Converting Communications to Online Reviews
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, you see an effort, the front runner. You might have heard me talk about it. Strides into the dog days of summer. I've been getting some nice texts and emails. on They trickle in. It's really awesome.
00:00:11
Speaker
It would be really great. I hate having them do this extra ask, but such as this ecosystem we're in. Turning those texts and emails into online reviews. Big, big help.
00:00:23
Speaker
Amazon or Goodreads. No offense here. I'm not going to read them because I haven't gone to Amazon yet. i don't even I don't know how many or how little there are I know there are some.
00:00:35
Speaker
I won't touch them. Maybe that's irresponsible, but I want to protect my brain. Stay clued into the newsletters or follow along on the Instagrams at Creative Nonfiction Podcast or BrendanOmero.com.
Virtual Reading Events and Favorite Conferences
00:00:49
Speaker
Also, tomorrow, August 16th, is there a Saturday. I'm going to be the featured reader for a night of nonfiction for the virtual Hippocamp. Now Hippocamp, when it was in person, was like my favorite thing to go to. It was amazing.
00:01:04
Speaker
Donna Tallarico does an amazing job there of literary citizenship and building community. It's an amazing thing. Right now it's virtual. So visit booksbyhippocampus.com to register for the entire package. I think it's only 75 bucks to hear everything over the course of the weekend, or you can just attend la carte, whatever sessions you can.
00:01:23
Speaker
My event happens to be free, though there is a $10 suggested donation. There will be four debut author readings. And then, yeah boy, is the featured reader. I am not a debut author.
00:01:34
Speaker
I have long made my debut. It goes from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. Go do it.
00:01:45
Speaker
And i was like, bro. and We didn't say bro back then but i was like, bro.
00:01:57
Speaker
Oh, ACNF, it's that time of the week. And it's going to be a double feature Friday. It just It's how we're going to get through these things. ah you know And I say it it as if i it's like a chore. I've got to get through these.
00:02:11
Speaker
It's just there's so many that some people who have books that publish, they wait weeks and weeks and weeks for their interview to come. And you like it to be as close to publication as possible. It's... the There is no such thing as the CNF pod bump in book sales, but you never know and you'd like it to be as close to pub date as possible.
Julia Barton on Editorial Roles at Pushkin Industries
00:02:30
Speaker
Anyway, it's the Creative a Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell and the art and craft of telling true stories today. We have Julia Barton.
00:02:42
Speaker
Now, Julia was like the third hire or something, if I have that right, at Pushkin Industries, the podcast giant founded by Malcolm Gladwell. You may have heard of him.
00:02:54
Speaker
She's the executive editor. of Pushkit and helped develop revisionist history and against the rules, the latter by the journalist and uber bestseller, Michael Lewis.
00:03:04
Speaker
Well, Malcolm Gladwell also is uber bestseller. And I think Michael Lewis is like the one writer that Malcolm Gladwell is jealous of. And it just goes to show you how unbelievably insecure we all are and that we all have insecurities and jealousies no matter how freaking successful we are julia quite literally edits with her ears i met julia briefly at the power of narrative conference in boston because she was generous enough to actually attend my little talk uh she's also a neiman fellow at hovid and her talk followed mine in the same room i think that's why she was in my room because she's might as well be on the property
00:03:45
Speaker
But I did not attend to a talk and I feel great shame about that because I know I would have learned a lot from it.
From Print to Audio: Julia's Storytelling Journey
00:03:51
Speaker
I had it circled in my program and everything. But my battery was in the negative after my talk and I just needed to disappear.
00:03:59
Speaker
The plight of the introvert. I could have learned a lot from her talk. It was about the grammar of audio stories and just audio in general. And, you know, as you know, I have a podcast and it would have been nice to hone my skills a little more.
00:04:15
Speaker
So anyway, and my way of atoning was inviting her on the podcast to talk about her auditory journey. Show notes to this episode and more at brendanomera.com. Hey, hey, there. You can peruse for hot blogs and sign up for my two very important newsletters, the flagship Rage Against the Algorithm.
00:04:33
Speaker
And the new one, Pitch Club. Issue three of Pitch Club recently dropped with Kim H. Cross. I've got a flood of new subscribers. It's starting to, the flywheel's turning on it right now, which is kind of cool to see.
00:04:47
Speaker
Pitch Club is just where I interview. Well, I do. i i I invite a long-form journalist on the show, and they share the text of a pitch, and I have them audio annotate things. I edit myself. out so all you hear are these nice little audio clips at various parts in the text so you can learn you can get some insight into how they're thinking about these pitches that sold stories and it's the thing i wish i had as a baby freelancer you know in 2012 or whatever the hell
00:05:22
Speaker
it'll never cost a dime. Let's keep doing it.
Supporting Freelancers with Pitch Club
00:05:25
Speaker
All I ask is for your permission because platform is currency and I can leverage that into dollars. Both are first of the month, no spam. So far as I can tell, you can't beat them.
00:05:34
Speaker
Like you can't. Try. You can't it. you can't do it You may also elect to check out patreon.com slash cnfpod to throw some dollar bills into the cnfpod coffers.
00:05:47
Speaker
You can earn some face-to-face time with me if you just want to talk some things through. Sometimes that's what you need. You need like for lack of a better term, sometimes you just need a literary therapist and so yeah yeah it's like you know how to write but sometimes you just need to talk things through and talk to someone who's kind of who's going through it and who's been there to some extent do it if you dare check it out man helps keep the lights on here at cnf pod hq and ah damn it the lights just flickered
00:06:21
Speaker
So Julia has a cool newsletter called Continuous Wave, which is a weekly newsletter exploring the forgotten history of broadcast and all electronic media. It's very specific, which is what you want from a newsletter.
00:06:34
Speaker
She's the founder of Radio Right, and that's right with W-R-I-G-H-T, kind of like the Wright Brothers. She's at Bartona 104 on Instagram, though it's private, so I don't know how much luck you'll have knocking on that door.
00:06:47
Speaker
You'll hear her name at the end credits of Against the Rules, among other podcasts, and you know how important it is if you're mentioned in those credits and how integral you are to
The Art and Cost of Audio Editing
00:06:57
Speaker
the experience you just had.
00:06:59
Speaker
And when I heard her name, I was like, damn. I got talk to her. And we got to talking about editing audio stories and it's different than print. What's the ideal length for a podcast, be it narrative or interview?
00:07:09
Speaker
The cost of revisions, which is way more in audio than print, as you might imagine. Scratch mixes and dry mixes. Animal versus mineral editing. What is that? Picturing the ideal interview in your head. And a lot more. It's really rich conversation about audio storytelling and her journey from You know, a baby print writer and into someone who really thrives in audio.
00:07:31
Speaker
Parting shot on the universal journaling theory. And then update on Sister Kevin. But for now, let's cue up the greatest montage of writers you'll ever hear. Riff.
Interviewing Techniques in Podcasting
00:07:48
Speaker
don't know I don't even know what's in my tool belt, let alone how to use it. Yeah, I mean, what is this genre if not hybridity? I respect that sentence. Is that an option? Because i choose that option. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:08:12
Speaker
Yeah, I just interviewed Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex and Money, podcast that's been around. For more than 10 years, I think, or about 10 years. and She's a very skilled interviewer.
00:08:24
Speaker
I asked her, you know, it seemed like when the show started, she had a lot more post-production narration, kind of summarizing things, pulling things together, reflecting. And now it's much more kind of question and answer based.
00:08:37
Speaker
It's still produced. I mean, there is post-production. There's a little bit of scoring. There's, you know, lots of things like that. But she actually said, you know, I feel like um too much of that narration in post is a little bit like cheating. I mean, she didn't use that word, but that's what she said. yeah It's sort of like sometimes it's to now ologies is a different show. It's got a lot of information as well as kind of like human relation vibes in the interview part.
00:09:04
Speaker
So I can understand why that's a necessary format. It's not good or bad. It's just um interesting that Anna Sale, like kind of, I think as she got more comfortable with her role as pure interviewer, no longer, she's not a reporter like she used to be.
00:09:18
Speaker
I mean, she's still doing journalism, but it's a different format and that she kind of doesn't want to have that safety net anymore of the post-production
Julia's 1995 Audio Beginnings and Radio's Warmth
00:09:28
Speaker
narration. It's also a pain in the butt for the producers to have to, you know, kind of like figure out where everything's going to go and how the narration flows into the tape and so forth and so on. so Yeah.
00:09:40
Speaker
Well, I think even, ah you know, ah backing up and rewinding the tape somewhat, i you know, and just doing some cursory research, you know, I just you know saw in an old, like, Neiman thing they that you wrote that you got your start in audio in 95 while you were enrolled in a master's program for nonfiction writing in Iowa. So, don't know, just take us yeah take us to that moment of what you were drawn to at that time and how you got, eventually just got sucked into the the stream of audio.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, so I was, I did get an MFA in nonfiction writing. writing at University of Iowa in their English department, um which was a really great, fascinating time.
00:10:17
Speaker
um and you know, people would come from magazines and talk to us about, you know, sort of life in the business or agents would come um or, you know, authors would come through town.
00:10:30
Speaker
And so I had this sense of nonfiction, you know, I was reading a lot of essays and so forth that it was like a very special club. it's that I may or may not be able to get into. um This was just at the cusp of internet, you know, sort of publication. So there was a few, there was Salon, that Slate was starting.
00:10:50
Speaker
um But it wasn't this sense of like, you can just go out and publish yourself, right? There was still like a lot of gatekeeping. And I
Low Wages, High Satisfaction: NPR Beginnings
00:10:57
Speaker
was reading The New Yorker religiously. and I remember a guy, editor from The New Yorker came and talked to us about, you know, kind of like what they were looking for and so forth. And of course, everyone wanted to know how to pitch him. And he was like, well, there's a facts line for pitches. And we were like, great, what is it? He's like, I'm not going to tell you.
00:11:15
Speaker
god already have too many pitches anyway. And I was like, bro. and we didn't say bro back then, but i was like, bro. And also, you know, my parents had been in newspaper journalism.
00:11:26
Speaker
Actually, my mom was a music critic at the Dallas Times Herald, which had, you know, kind of just been shut down in the early 90s. um So I felt like burned by newspaper journalism and that it was like on a slide they weren't good. and so that was also like discouraging to see.
00:11:47
Speaker
and I just like, what is this? This is bullshit. So yeah that was happening. And meanwhile, I ran into a friend from college. I went to Oberlin College and my friend Lisa Phillips was so on campus. She just materialized. and I was like, what are you doing here? And she was like, what are you doing here? She was working at the local NPR affiliate WSUI as a graduate assistant and finishing a degree, I think.
00:12:11
Speaker
And so she recruited me as a board op. So I had started this minimum wage job, you know, announcing stuff on air after the station had already powered down at night. So nobody could hear me. Like 15 people could hear my horrible, horrible board op skills.
00:12:27
Speaker
But I was just like, this is maybe an alternative to this sort of arid and nonfiction world that I'm looking at this world of magazine and newspapers sort of hoarding their resources. yeah And so I set myself to a couple of public radio conferences. it was something called the Prendy Public Radio News Directors Institute, I think. um And so I went to a couple of those and everyone was so nice. They were so like welcoming.
00:12:57
Speaker
And then I figured out why. It's because they paid like terrible wages. We pay in friendship. I mean, was making minimum wage. Yeah, I was. Then I became a graduate assistant sort of reporter. I took my friend Lisa's job when she left.
00:13:10
Speaker
and so I got to report for the networks and things like that, but I was still, we were still editing with reel to reel tape and it was like incredibly frustrating. So i was on the fence about it, but then everyone was just nice and I felt like it's welcoming
Captivated by Early 'This American Life'
00:13:24
Speaker
energy.
00:13:25
Speaker
and I found that radio and podcasting have that, elements of that to this day. And so there's always been a community element to it. And we see each other and we're happy to see each other and we complain about stuff.
00:13:39
Speaker
And it's what I kind of thought newspaper and magazine journalism was and might be for many people, but I just found it through audio instead. Yeah, essay you wrote you right around that time is when this American life is starting and gaining altitude.
00:13:55
Speaker
And that really changed the game. and That's no news for people like us who are pretty steeped in this, but that was pretty revolutionary at the time. Yeah, yeah. And I was the board op at 6 a.m. on Sundays, I think.
00:14:09
Speaker
I can't remember. It was like some weekend morning at 6 a.m. And that's when we aired the show very early in its run. Yeah. We were running it just at an hour, a time of the morning when no one could hear it, but I was listening to it and actually it was so distracting because it was so interesting that I would tape the feed so that I could listen to it later. So I basically was like podcasting it to myself.
00:14:32
Speaker
Um, and then I, I actually wrote about Ira and those guys for salon. Hmm. In 97, I think. Oh, wow. Yeah. and And when you say ah board op, you know, what is that for people who might not know?
00:14:47
Speaker
Oh, so you're the person, the local operator who's sort of announcing the next program. You're maybe reading a little local newscast or reading the weather. You're playing ah forward promotes for other shows that are coming. You're following a log that the program director has given you.
00:15:05
Speaker
um And then you're just kind of like, you're also doing stuff in the background. You're checking information. the signal you're you're checking off all these logs um you're at an am station you're powering it down at night you're you're recording programs for the next day off the satellite feed okay you know you're doing all this little busy work you're basically running the station it's a great it's a great way to to get into audio production because you really have to do everything at a small station ah cool very nice yeah
00:15:36
Speaker
and All right. So you're starting to find your people. You're realizing that the print world is like draconianly gatecapped and that's not cool. And so, but you're finding your people in audio. So, you know, and so as you're feeling kind of the, the warm embrace of that, you know, what's a, what's the next step for you?
00:15:57
Speaker
um So after that, my boyfriend who's public artist, we moved to Philadelphia and I basically did the same thing that I did. At WSUI, I did like board ops shifts. I was like, I'm available, whatever you need, you know. And so I, do you know, would just do like morning edition, assistant, filling in, stuff like that.
00:16:17
Speaker
um and then trying to get a reporting job. And that just basically means hanging around as much as you can in the newsroom until a job opens up and they hire you and then you get paid nothing. But, you know, there was only like three general assignment reporters at WHYY at the time, which was a massive market.
00:16:36
Speaker
So every day you would just come in and they'd be like, go to the, go to city hall, go to this, go to that. And, you know, you would try to find time to do stuff for the networks. mean, we had a political convention in Philadelphia. So was filing reports on, you know, protests, protesters being arrested, things like that. Hmm.
00:16:56
Speaker
And there was always something disastrous going on in Philly.
00:17:01
Speaker
And it was ah it was just like nonstop. But again, I learned a lot um at both stations where I worked. And that this was in the late 90s, early 2000s. They were going through the process of moving from analog to digital.
00:17:14
Speaker
So we were you know cycling through different systems that were crashing. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's ah always a very tumultuous time in broadcasting. It seems like there's always like.
00:17:25
Speaker
seven different disasters at once. um But again, ah i made some really great friends at that station and we were all in it together. um it was just a really interesting place. And, you know, Terry Gross is there That shop was there, you know, trying to survive all these upheavals and moving to a new building and so forth and so on. And so I also would do a thing where I would just ask people, like if i you know, did a piece for the network,
00:17:52
Speaker
or Marketplace or whatever, I'd ask if I could, you know, if I was in town, if I could come sit in on a feed, a live feed of the show. So I think very early on, I was very interested learning about this medium and learning from the people who were doing it at a level that I wasn't ready for yet.
00:18:07
Speaker
But I wanted to see how the, you know, the folks at NPR, at Marketplace constructed their shows. To me, it it was fascinating. Yeah, there's an element. You say in construction, and there is this element of of blocks when you're moving things around. I like i use Hindenburg as my DAW, but a lot of other people, they tend to use Pro Tools, I think.
00:18:31
Speaker
Hindenburg is the best. I i endorse it. It's wonderful. Yeah, i've I've been using it for probably a good seven, eight years. I started with Audacity, like most people do, and ah went for as a freebie. But then, yeah, Hindenburg came on my radar yeah about eight years ago. and i i
Podcast Editing Software: Hindenburg vs. Audacity
00:18:48
Speaker
I love it. It's like having a little engineer. It levels things out nicely. It's yeah it's yes it's pretty pretty great.
00:18:55
Speaker
um But yeah, to your point of construction, it's ah like what I would give, just because I'm kind of a nerd like this, to like sit in on an edit. like When you're... putting together an episode of working with whoever will be ah this American life or like in your case, you know, working with Michael Lewis, like what those, what that looks like on the seat, just every, the music here, the narration here, all this tape, it's gotta be wild and overwhelming to look at, especially for someone who might not be too familiar with yeah that degree of complexity.
00:19:29
Speaker
i was a producer for a while in public radio, but, um, I've always been more drawn to the written side of it and the, you know, the sort of listener notes side of it.
00:19:41
Speaker
So it's story editing. So I don't do any of that production stuff anymore. I'm not even in the Pro Tools sessions um or the Descript sessions that, you know, Descript is this program that allows you to edit text to audio.
00:19:59
Speaker
So a lot of people use that like for preliminary edits and then they port it over to Descript, I mean to Pro Tools for final production. The thing is like, i I do know what those sessions look like and I do know what I'm asking of a producer. If I say, let's move this or let's change the scoring bed or let's rewrite it at the last minute. So your scoring is all screwed up. I know what I'm asking and I, and I'm, I'm trying to,
00:20:28
Speaker
explain it to people in a way that helps them understand why it is important. And also, sometimes I'm also like, it's too late, I'm not going to give that note. It's just not okay to ask for that at this stage, or i am defending the producers against a host who suddenly got insecure about something and wants to tear it up at the last minute.
00:20:48
Speaker
um I'm talking them down from that ledge, because I know exactly how much work it's going to demand of them. um I'm also you know trying to collaborate with engineers and take their notes seriously. The engineers are the people who are mixing all of those elements together at the end.
00:21:05
Speaker
They may feel like a so ah scoring choice that a producer made is like not working and they have a ah an idea to like take out one of the stems or they may want to swap it out with a different scoring bed and I'm there to A-B b test it with them.
00:21:21
Speaker
you know what I mean? So like my role as an editor is all of those, like, it's a kind of like the equivalent of a director in a movie in some ways where I'm like helping all of these elements get through the pipeline to the listener while trying not to forget what the listeners encounter is like. And that's very hard for all of us because the more familiar we get with the material, the more times we've heard it, rewritten it,
00:21:50
Speaker
thought about it, argued about it, the less we we're able to approach it the way the listener does, which is like, I'm in my car, what's in the feed? you know Entertain me now. Okay, you're boring next.
00:22:01
Speaker
yeah it's That's all you get. Yeah. And how often, or you know for a particular episode, call it 30 or 35 minute episode or whatever, how often are you you know listening to that almost beginning to end before it publishes?
00:22:18
Speaker
with a narrative show like Against the Rules or Revisionist History or one of those shows, probably at least four times, but more maybe, and also more in in little sections. so generally the the process that we worked out at Pushkin and and most other narrative shops have a similar process. And there may be in fact, more rounds of notes. It depends on the complexity and whether it's a series, you know, that's all supposed to fit together.
00:22:46
Speaker
with cliffhangers and so forth, or whether it's standalone episodes, but you'll have, um, generally the host and the production team just listening to tape together. And I will try to stay out of that part of it because I don't want to get exposed too soon to the material.
00:23:04
Speaker
Then we'll, they'll pull it together in a script form and then we'll bring it to a larger group. And that's the table. we That's kind of the first draft. iteration and it's meant to be loose and open.
00:23:17
Speaker
um But I will come to that. Generally, that's my first exposure to it. I may have talked through it with people, but I'm trying not to get too close. I will time it and give people a sense of like how it's coming in And then the hosts and the producers are looking at the sort of reading the room, whether the room is on Zoom or in person kind of get a sense of like, is this stuff that we thought was hilarious? Like, is it funny yeah to these people?
00:23:42
Speaker
you know So it's like the first sort of encounter with reality. And it's very useful information. Once we get through that, then mike my we have a conversation about it. And my job as the editor is then to try to focus that information into an actionable plan that the hosts and producers can take back to the drawing board and like rewrite.
00:24:03
Speaker
So then they'll do ah a rewrite hopefully quickly. And then I will get um a version of the script. That's what I call line edits. So this is just me with the tape kind of going through and listening to the tape, kind of get a sense of the flow.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I will suggest rewrites and just basically trying to train the writers. And it's funny because now I'm working with writers that I previously like you know couldn't fax them, but fax their publications.
00:24:31
Speaker
But i'm you know i'm I'm acknowledging their expertise and their their abilities to tell great stories, but that when it's coming to people through the ear, sometimes things need to change, right?
Editing for Audio vs. Print: Listener Engagement
00:24:43
Speaker
There's just sort of a sort of different laws of physics involved. um So I'll go through and do line edits in suggestion mode. So basically my work just looks like a Google doc, like any other editor.
00:24:55
Speaker
i will also be listening to the tape. I'll sometimes tag the producers and be like, is there something else this person said? Or like, you know, is it possible to cut off this moment like a little sooner before they go off on another digression, you know, things like that.
00:25:10
Speaker
Then the the host or the producer will go through those edits and then, Basically, we send it off to the fact checker at that point and we do something, let's just call the scratch mix.
00:25:23
Speaker
And the scratch mix is a way to get it off the page. So the ah tension in this form of and you know editorial process is trying to get it off the page as much as possible and into our ears so that we don't make the cognitive mistake, which is very easy to make and understandable that the thing on the page is the is the production, right?
00:25:45
Speaker
Because the listeners are not, going to be reading along unless they need to for some reason or want to read a transcript. So the Scratch Mix now can be produced in fully in Descript with an automatic voice, a synthetic voice, um which I find creepy, but also it's just so much easier on the producers. We used to have to have someone read all the tracks and then like cobble them together really quickly.
00:26:10
Speaker
But that is something I can then take out for a walk. I can then think about it. I can be like, is it landing? Like, how long is it taking for us to identify the show?
00:26:21
Speaker
Is that too long? Is it fine? You know, all these questions. yeah Are the jokes funny? And I just noticed my reactions. And so a lot of what I talked about at Power of Narrative is like, you can do this too.
00:26:33
Speaker
You can notice when you're getting bored. You can even note the time code. You can be like, I'm distracted. Suddenly I have this urge to go check social media. Like, what is happening to me?
00:26:43
Speaker
So I'm trying to do that as i as I'm out walking. And then I go back and I put in notes while the fact checker is also putting in their notes. And we're doing all of this in and service of, because it's a narrative show, the host has to come in and perform it.
00:26:58
Speaker
And we want it to be as close to finished as possible so that the host doesn't have to keep going back into the studio. And that is the main difference between you know storytelling for the ear and writing. Mm-hmm.
00:27:13
Speaker
is that the cost of revisions is so much higher because not only does the host have to come back in because we got something wrong and, you know, we caught an error or, you know, their voice was scratchy or whatever. They have to come back in and re-perform it, which is they're not in that same space anymore. They've moved on to the next episode. They're kind of pissy about it, but also their voices change over time.
00:27:38
Speaker
Your voice changes during the course of the day. yeah so when we when we have them come in and do what we call pickups, they you can hear them sometimes in people's podcasts. they're Suddenly their voice is like a different person, you know? And it's because the pickups were done in the afternoon and the thing was tracked in the morning and originally the bulk of it. And so we try to avoid that as well. It's not possible because things are fluid and changing, but we're just trying to make it as easy as possible, especially hosts who are
00:28:09
Speaker
you know, writers and have lots of other projects going on, trying to get them into the studio or get them on their iPhones or whatever it's coming down to you now is,
00:28:20
Speaker
is it's painful and it slows the production process down. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well, you taking you know, raw track or a raw episode out on a walk is like really astute because you're putting yourself in the shoes of the listener. Cause a lot of people are yeah doing something else. You're usually walking, walking a dog or doing dishes or whatever.
00:28:41
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's a really, really smart move as an editor to be like, to act as a listener. and be a proxy for listening. Okay, this is where I'm drifting. This is, you can make really good notes. And how are you making those notes when you're on a walk? Are you carrying like a notebook with you? Like, oh, this is dragging here and and so forth. Yeah. Sometimes I will, or just use the notes app on my phone.
00:29:03
Speaker
um But I also find like, if I have time to just walk around with it, I mean, I'm working on episodes generally that are like 30 minutes that if I go back in and just like, so I'll stick it in the whole thing in Hindenburg. And then basically listen to it again and then you know sort of make my notes as I go.
00:29:19
Speaker
and I'll have the script to remind me of where stuff is. That generally speaking, i just, I can rely on memory sometimes. If I have the luxury of time, if I know that I'm just gonna have to run in and just like put in quick notes.
00:29:33
Speaker
yeah um And all of this is time consuming, right? Because then after this stage and then after we put the pickups in, then there's a mix. And there may be two rounds of mixed notes There's the first round, which is what we call a dry mix.
00:29:47
Speaker
So we've got the tracks and we just want to listen to it for pacing and also to start thinking about scoring. Like, oh, I could hear a scoring coming, come in here because this is a transition.
00:29:59
Speaker
Oh, I would like this character to have ah sort of theme attach attached to them so that when they come back at the end, we kind of like subconsciously and are anticipating them before they step back on stage.
00:30:12
Speaker
the dry mix can help make that process. I can give some guidance to the producers, but I'm not going through all the music beds and picking out music beds for them.
00:30:23
Speaker
i like, the they deserve to have that fun. And even they can ignore all my suggestions, right? I'm just hearing them in my mind. So that's a, that's one round of mixing. And then once they've got all the scoring in,
00:30:37
Speaker
before we go to the final phase, which is mastering, which is where you, you know, make all the levels even and like, kind of like sweeten up people's voices so that they come to the front in a pleasant way, you know, and that it's, you know, it's matching the specs of whatever platform it's going to, things like that. um I will give one more round of notes just in terms of mostly hands off, but if like a scoring bed is getting distracting, um often producers will just,
00:31:06
Speaker
They get a scoring bed and it's like a minute and 10 seconds long and they're just like, i just want to lay it in there and then it will resolve when it resolves, you know, in the file. i don't want to have to start playing with cutting music because that's a pain in my butt.
00:31:20
Speaker
And I'll be like, you know what? I know that I wish this worked, but it's not working because suddenly it feels like it's going on too long. i don't know if you've ever had that experience when you're listening to a scoring and you're like, why is that orchestra still playing in the background? like Yeah.
00:31:37
Speaker
I've moved on, you guys. I've moved on. For sure. Get out of the room. Oh, for sure. yeah Yeah. I'm having a hard time picturing a particular interview or podcast I've listened to where I noticed that. But I noticed mine with the music that I track under my intros and stuff.
00:31:53
Speaker
Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is at this point. I'm like, I know it's low in the mix and low, low volume, but like you should be gone by now. We don't need the guitars anymore.
00:32:04
Speaker
And, you know, I just like and I only work with basically four tracks in any given thing. So it's always ah it's a pretty simple fix for me to just drag things over and fade it out and be done with it. But, yeah, to it's through this repetition that you develop an instinct for it.
00:32:22
Speaker
and we where we I don't know. we I guess we kind of think of instincts as like innate, but you do this enough and like you can strengthen an instinct you have. i I suspect that's where you're drawing a lot of your editorial eyes. just It's instinct at this point, I imagine. and Am I right?
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And then but you also can notice when that instinct kicks in. Right. So oftentimes um I'll ask for scoring to just go out for a little bit when we're we've got a lot of statistics, facts and figures, or historical information, because a different part of my brain is working now. It's not the emotional part where I'm just like, writing along with my feelings, right? Like I need to grasp something. And so the music is suddenly getting in the way of me doing that.
00:33:09
Speaker
So that's a note, I will try to give a note as to why just so that people understand it's not just me you know, being insecure, like, is this good enough? Or I just like to give people tasks, you know, and waste their time. It's like, actually, and you know, if I, if it's my fault, like I made the note to put scoring here and now I'm saying no scoring, like I try to acknowledge that.
00:33:30
Speaker
Or if I, if I said to cut something and now I want it back, I'm like, I'm sorry, I know this is my fault. Right. Because it's a collaborative process and I want it to be fun to collaborate on something. um And I also welcome, you know, other people's feelings. Like if they're just like,
00:33:44
Speaker
actually, I like this. I'm like, okay, well, I'm not the only listener, you know, people have different reactions. But you know, there are certain patterns that I know producers get stuck in.
00:33:55
Speaker
And that's why i think it's helpful to have someone who's not in the session. Because also they're looking at this wall of sound. So it's exhausting. And I'm able to be on the outside and hear it, right, and then reflect notes back to them.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah, think what you're getting at, too, is this um a transom essay you wrote a while ago at this point, but it's very evergreen. This idea of like an animal and mineral editor brain. And if you remember what you wrote and lay in just that that idea, I think you're kind of alluding to it here elliptically. and ah But maybe you can define what it means to be the animal versus the mineral editor and, you know, you you where you stand in that continuum.
00:34:37
Speaker
It's a type of producer, right? So like many producers are coming at this forum, you know, the spoken word audio forum from a musical background, right? So they're thinking of words that the spoken word track is another musical track, right?
00:34:53
Speaker
it's It's more emotional, less verbal. And then there are, you know, there's this whole other strain of people coming from print journalism and they've got sort of explainer tendencies, right?
00:35:05
Speaker
I would probably put myself in that camp because I'm always the person who's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That character's going through that. But like, what about the handoff from Hong Kong in Hong Kong from, you know, the UK to China? I want to know more about that.
00:35:19
Speaker
And they're like, you do, but we have feelings going on here. Like, come on. Isn't feeling. And I'm just like, yeah, feelings are great, but i also want to learn something from the feelings, yeah right? The context I want.
00:35:32
Speaker
want history. I want, so it's a balance between those two things. And I think being able to identify which type of producer you are, it's not just an editor, but any type of producer reporter so that you can think about, well, like how can I, you know, balance that tendency out with, you know, I have to acknowledge that like a character story is super compelling.
00:35:55
Speaker
People want that, but then there are also people who resent and feel manipulated by the, Vibes. but Right. And you're never going to be able to satisfy everyone. But if you kind of know where you're coming from and what your tendencies are, it can make you maybe more open to collaboration.
00:36:15
Speaker
In ah and another Transom essay, you you quoted Tom Stoppard, who was, I believe, a playwright. And i you know you're talking about, ah it's about controlling the flow of information, is him him saying this, arriving at the right length, at the right speed, and in the right order.
00:36:31
Speaker
And that, to me, strikes me as the holy trinity of what it means to be a good audio editor. Yeah. Yeah, so much is about pacing, especially in the later you know phases of ah an episode's production.
00:36:45
Speaker
It's like, this is great, but it's coming too late in the episode. I'm getting impatient and you're starting a whole new thing. That doesn't mean you can't do it. You should just know like you're going to have to do a better job. It's not just like, I don't want this here. Like I feel the credits are coming, you know, soon and I see, you know, the end. It's just like when you get to the end of a book, you're just like, wait, why is he starting a whole new thing here? What is going on? is this a trick? you know Yeah.
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah, so pacing, I think, and that, it was great to see that because so much of radio actually came from theater, you know, like oh a lot of, now that I'm all about studying old radio things, um it's really fascinating to see how much from the stage, you know, directly, just like walking down the street, stage actors, playwrights, public speakers, all these people who were using the theater space of New York,
00:37:44
Speaker
just migrated, especially during the Depression, into the network studios because that's where the work was.
Radio's Lost History and Podcasting Parallels
00:37:52
Speaker
And so this entire culture of theater, you know, branched out and became part of radio, which then became television. Mm-hmm.
00:37:59
Speaker
Something you said a little while ago about the the cost of revision. And I'm just thinking, like how can we make those costs or like ah decrease those costs? And I'm sure some of it comes from ah having you know very skilled reporters and you know getting getting good tape, not having to go back to people and you kind of have to reintegrate tape.
00:38:22
Speaker
So how can reporters help themselves and by by extension helping their editors? Oh yeah, this is a this is a topic of perennial fascination for people, especially public radio people.
00:38:34
Speaker
um And so ah you ah used to work um with all these guys from Planet Money, you know Jacob Goldstein, Robert Smith, and so forth. And they're great about picturing the ideal interview in their head, even if it's just like day of. It's kind of like wouldn't it be great if I encountered someone saying this, or i got a scene in which this happened.
00:38:59
Speaker
And just that act of imagining it can help manifest it because you kind of know why you're going out into the field. So that's one big thing. The other thing is just preparing, right? Like reading up and knowing the reason why you're approaching somebody. So you're not going on fishing expeditions so much.
00:39:20
Speaker
um And then also listening, right? And this is partly why i like being an editor more than a reporter, because when I was a reporter, I would then transcribe my tape. We didn't have auto transcription back in my day.
00:39:35
Speaker
um And so logging my own tape was the most painful thing because I could hear all the leads I didn't follow. i could hear all the questions I didn't ask. and i so I was both doing something that was tedious And I was hating myself but yeah in the process.
00:39:51
Speaker
I mean, not always. Sometimes just like, yes, this is so good. They said it, you know. But I feel like because I was just like naturally too shy to be a good reporter that I was missing things. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
I understand. i um I feel the the same way when I go through tape because I have a tendency to ask a question. I just kind of let people go and I won't interject. um But I often ah yeah have my notebook and that's usually where I'm putting a pin in things to come back to.
00:40:19
Speaker
But I suspect that's really hard like when you're out there with a recording kit and you've got your your headphones and your shotgun mic and your little Zoom recorder. ah You can't really hold another notebook to like put a pin in something. So it I feel like it's all the more difficult to like try to keep those multiple things going in your head as a and so radio or podcast reporter and you know try to get the good tape. Because then you go and log your tape you're oh shoot I should have I really should have followed up on that thread because it was just it was rich it was there for the taking and I just get swept up in this river of information well you can now use portable lav mics so that will leave your hands free or are even a mic stand but yeah it's ah it's a different mentality right because you're also not you're trying not to encourage them verbally right you learn very quickly to take
00:41:11
Speaker
to stop saying, uh-huh, uh-huh, the whole time, because then it interferes with your tape. Yeah, exactly. it's ah when i like I wrote an essay for Writer's Digest, like the Writer's Guide to Being a Good Podcast Guest. Well, everyone for one, they writers like need to get a microphone. You might not host a podcast, but you're going to probably be on them.
00:41:32
Speaker
So get a good mic because you want good audio. But it's having mic awareness too. like ill often If I'm listening, like I'm going to back up over here so I'm not... swallowing, like getting gross mouth noises into the mic and that the, and the, all these things, the lip smacks and all these other gross things that just get picked up or, or whatever. I mean, sure you can mute, I guess, but it, it, sometimes you can't.
00:41:57
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, it's one of those things that having good, like audio hygiene, uh, yeah, your point that, you know, like, uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
Becoming a Good Podcast Guest: Tips and Tricks
00:42:04
Speaker
There are some podcasts I've listened to that. I'm like, dude, he you you gotta lean away, away from your mic and stop saying that. And like that, that it's really distracting. These things you pick up over time.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah. but That's a great public service too, about, you know, um, being a good guest. And I do feel like that was one of the, other reasons, you know, I wanted to give this talk at power of narrative, which is a lot of print journalists is like, you can listen to the show that's invited you on and start to understand their approach.
00:42:37
Speaker
Right. That's it. But, you know, you need, you kind of need to have awareness of how audio works in order to understand the show.
00:42:48
Speaker
ah for sure. from from your eye and your experience of of audio and then the the podcast boom that kind of started around 2010-ish, we'll say, you know what have you noticed in the arc ah of the podcast, be it interviews or or narrative? like How would you characterize that arc from where that started at that point to to where we are now?
00:43:10
Speaker
o Oh, that's ah that's a great question. Excuse me, I'm the call. And it's been really interesting for me. So when I got a Neiman Fellowship, in 2023, was to study a lot of the origins of storytelling techniques and editorial processes and so forth that I had taken, you know, from public radio into podcasting. So already like a lot of disruptions.
00:43:35
Speaker
um And something that I noticed was because of all these constant disruptions, like a lot of lore has been lost or forgotten. um and so once I started reading up on, you know, kind of the rise of radio, especially in the United States, which, and how commercial it was for its first 50 years and how many bizarre rules there were terms of production.
00:44:02
Speaker
um I started to realize what, you know, was happening to us in podcasting, in this transition from broadcast to podcasting and like seeing many, many patterns repeating themselves.
00:44:13
Speaker
So just a few of those patterns that I've seen repeating themselves are um video is trying to stake a claim. It wants all the the sort of audience loyalty and add dollars of podcasting.
00:44:30
Speaker
And so YouTube has entered this space and YouTube is ah is a big pipe into people's homes. It just is. yeah Their homes, their phones and so forth. But it's a visual it's a visual medium.
00:44:41
Speaker
And so many of the patterns that happened you know, with commercial radio sort of getting getting eaten by television are sort of happening in weird distorted funhouse versions with YouTube and podcasting. I don't think YouTube is trying to eat podcasting, but let's just face it, like you can make a lot more money producing video ads than you can, you know, audio radio ads.
00:45:07
Speaker
So there's an incentive to try to get everyone to migrate to video. Spotify is also doing this. try to encourage people to go into video production. um But then once you're editing ah show for video, it's a very different prospect.
00:45:23
Speaker
I mean, human speech just doesn't edit the same way, even if that it's a very quote unquote simple interview format, yeah but much less the the narrative shows that I tend to work on They are very hard to translate into video.
00:45:38
Speaker
So you see that kind of going on and I'm like, just be aware of it. So i've you know I've written posts in my newsletter, Continuous Wave, about how bitter the first generation of radio producers were about what television did to their careers.
00:45:52
Speaker
Some of them went on to become screenwriters and so forth. So it's not like it was all bad. It's just they loved radio and they wanted to keep making radio and the audiences loved them. And then they were all told, no, no more. It's all TV now. Too bad. So sad.
00:46:07
Speaker
Play records on the radio. And they were like, wait a minute. And so they were still bitter about it like years later. And I found that really fascinating. um The other thing that's happening, that's, I think, a very good development is that people have rediscovered long form audio, which, you know, was very constrained for decades.
00:46:28
Speaker
So public radio, you know, would have these little oases like This American Life or you know, various documentary shows or like the coveted 12 minute segment of All Things Considered once a month would run long 12-minute documentary from Radio Diaries for the Kitchen Sisters.
00:46:48
Speaker
But those were like years in the making, grant-funded, special jewels. And so suddenly, like all of that time constraint lifted with podcasting.
00:47:01
Speaker
And it turned out that the audiences were there for it like immediately. yeah The same audiences that the TV guys were like, no one cares about your long ass radio plays.
00:47:11
Speaker
They were showing up for it. They were discovering audio fiction. They were discovering serialized narratives. All of these things. And that is really gratifying, you know, because when I was in public media, you know, like as an editor, my job was to churn out three minute, 30 to four minute pieces week after week after week.
00:47:33
Speaker
Just bunches of them. Three minute interviews. Like how much of a follow up can you ask in a three minute interview with a 30 second introduction? you know Yeah, not much. it's It gets really shallow and formulaic and tedious.
00:47:49
Speaker
So I was immediately attracted to podcasting as a forum that you could experiment with. um I just don't think people's attention is infinite. So you do have to earn it.
00:48:00
Speaker
And that's subjective and hard to figure out how how to do that. Yeah. and What would you say, you know, just as someone who's so steeped in this are similar to what maybe musicians or music producers, hear they're they're hearing things that the average person doesn't hear.
True Crime Genre: Historical Roots and Ethics
00:48:18
Speaker
What are the average thing? or What are the things that you're hearing that maybe I'm not hearing or the average listener isn't hearing? And that could extend to pet peeves of yours, too. so ah god Don't get me started.
00:48:31
Speaker
um I mean, there are certain things that are really hard to do. in audio as a linear form that you're, you know, you can only kind of hold one thing in your mind at once. So it's sort of, I liken it to you're reading a scroll instead of a book, right? You're watching a scroll unfurl.
00:48:48
Speaker
So when, that when that scroll suddenly needs to transition back in time or, you know, kind of like bring in a character's backstory It's hard to do. So people keep reaching for these cliches and I myself do it. And then I have to stop myself.
00:49:03
Speaker
It worked for like the first 10,000 times and now you can't do it anymore. So like one very common transition is so, so you start big and then you're like, like in the, in the present stuff is blowing up. And then you're like, to, to understand how we got here, we have to go back to the beginning of time and then tell the story again.
00:49:24
Speaker
And I'm just like, I know i know what you're doing and you've got to find a better way to do it. I'm sorry. And then the other thing that I just, it's more of ah an ethical issue, but taking um this sort of faux innocent look at the world. I mean, it's true of tabloid journalism too, but it's sort of like, can you believe what happened in this place? These bad people did these bad things.
00:49:48
Speaker
And then another person, you know, was innocent and they were, the crime was pinned on them. And you're just kind of like, and tell me what this all means, you know? And so i think there is a and it's interesting to find out now, because I didn't really realize this, that true crime was a genre in radio from the very beginnings, sort of like tabloid coverage of scandal trials and society things. and And, it was all done live, you know?
00:50:19
Speaker
like in the courthouse and people would write in with their theories and they were getting read on the air and like all of this stuff. So this tendency, this emotional kind of like valence of ours it's been attached to audio from the very beginning.
00:50:35
Speaker
and now that it's lucrative again, it's kind of like being reinvented and we're, we're thrown all of these true crime shows and we're supposed to subscribe and get like a constant feed of them and things like that. And,
00:50:49
Speaker
it's It's just tough because you can do journalism in that format as well. You can try to understand the criminal justice system and you can try to understand the world.
00:51:00
Speaker
But absent that, if it's just people suffering, i find it really problematic. because I don't want to do it. I don't want to be editing those kind of shows for um people's entertainment.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. What would you identify as the ideal length, be it for yeah a narrative episode or an interview for your taste or maybe it just, yeah, just mil for your taste. Let's just say that.
Ideal Podcast Lengths for Various Formats
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah. I tend to find like a 30, 35 minutes, maybe 20 minutes for an explainer because I'm just kind of like, I've edited a lot of explainer shows and I feel like around 20 minutes and that's including, you know, kind of like warming up and the credits and so forth.
00:51:41
Speaker
you kind of explain one thing really well. And beyond that, you're going to get tempted to complicate it bring in like side quests and all this stuff. And I don't know. i don't know if I need all of that. I want to learn one thing.
00:51:54
Speaker
But for narrative, I think you need to meet people. you need to hear ah kind of an A story and a B story, maybe interwoven. you know, you just need a little more time with it.
00:52:05
Speaker
And if it's really complicated in some some aspect of it, just needs more explaining, you know, somebody's got a really interesting backstory or it's, you know part of a more complex narrative arc of the season, then, you know, maybe you go to 45.
00:52:21
Speaker
Always when I, when something comes in at more than 45, I'm like, what's going on here? i just don't, I don't trust it. You know what I mean? Now that said people, there's a whole other genre of super long podcasts where people, i think,
00:52:37
Speaker
want them just on in the background, like a radio chat show that they dip in and out of. yeah like Those are generally not edited at all. Yeah. Like hardcore history, like Dan Carlin's thing. like He puts out maybe one or two episodes a year, but they're five hours long. And it's like, yas yeah, you just, you dip and you dip out and maybe you take a week to listen to it or a month. thing Who knows?
00:53:02
Speaker
But it's a, it's a pretty wild take on the form to be like, yeah, you know, we're not going to chop this up. We're just going to, here it is. and it ah Yeah, yeah. And there's ah there's an audience for that as well. And that's fine, um you know.
00:53:16
Speaker
But like Joe Rogan, you know, just talking to people until they beg to go to the bathroom. I don't know. That's a whole different. I can't i can't abide by those. Planet.
00:53:27
Speaker
ah Once we get north of an hour in a conversation interview podcast, like it's about when I'm ready to tap out ah because there's just other things to listen to and other things to enjoy. I don't want to spend my week listening to this one episode and oh boy, you're putting out two, three or four of these a week. Like just can't, I can't do it, man. I'm out.
00:53:46
Speaker
Yeah, but it's fascinating because I mean, coming from radio where like three minutes, you know, both musically and intellectually was the golden time length. And now to find that there's an audience for just like endless kind of like minimally edited material. And there's in fact an incentive to run more ads to just like churn out more content.
00:54:09
Speaker
It's a fascinating experiment. in sort Yeah. Oh, for sure. How much stuff people want. Yeah, it's wild.
Editing Michael Lewis: Print to Audio Adaptation
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and then there's, you know, the like something like Against the Rules and you're working with Michael Lewis on that and the yeah latest season. I mean, it wrappped wrapped a while ago, but it was a brilliant season on fandom and sports gambling.
00:54:29
Speaker
And just in working with someone like him, who is like an outsized person in narrative nonfiction. And here you are, you're walking into on this wonderful podcast that you do. you know What's been your experience of editing Michael for a show like this who brings his own, like just a ton of experience in books, but to a medium that is not his his firstborn, if you will?
00:54:53
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, it's it's been really fantastic working with him. I mean, I feel like I learned so much from the way he writes, the way he characterizes people. And it's always been my job to kind of like get out of the way But to also tell him what I think, you know, like I get it.
00:55:10
Speaker
Like you don't have to keep explaining things that would work well on the page. It's sometimes like it gets across much more quickly in audio because there's subtext that is not on the page. Right. So the way someone tells a story.
00:55:26
Speaker
So it's it's again, it's collaborative. And something that I figured out by working with, you know, all of these magazine writers is that like they've had experiences many of them of being edited post final you know so they've opened the page and seen a thing that a lead that they did not write they've seen a transition like cut they've seen like the the last four inches like cut for space or whatever and so they have like trust issues with editors yeah especially new editors right and so
00:56:03
Speaker
And I don't think he would mind me saying this saying his name, but Michael Spector you know would come on really strong and be like, what do you mean? This sentence isn't... I'm like, okay, Michael, you are going to have to say all these words with your own mouth into the microphone. This is your narration.
00:56:21
Speaker
i am making suggestions. I cannot make you say things. If you think this sentence that is taking me like several breaths to read going to flow out of your mouth quickly, then, you know, have at.
00:56:35
Speaker
It is your show. It is your book, audio book. Literally, it's the relationship is completely different. I cannot now. Okay. I could cut maybe some audio post in post some narration and that causes tension at times.
00:56:51
Speaker
um But I try to be transparent about it. But, you know, I can't make them say things that they don't want to say. So it's a different relationship. And it has to be collaborative. It just does.
00:57:02
Speaker
So once they can kind of understand that, I think they just like maybe enjoy it because my job is to help them sound good in this medium. It's not to have them be my ventriloquist puppets. And in fact, if they are reading copy that I wrote for them, just as a suggestion and they take that copy because for whatever reason they're pressed for time or, you know, we're on deadline or they're just like, I give up, then that's actually a failure in the whole process. Right.
00:57:32
Speaker
Because it's not about them saying words that I wrote unless they're reading. I don't write ads for them, but sometimes I'll write cross promos because I know that they just don't have the mental space to, you know, promote another show or even if it's another host in their network.
00:57:47
Speaker
So I'll write those things and then I hear them read them and I'm like, I wish you cared, but it's okay. Like I would do the same thing. If I got copy that was readable and it wasn't like my main focus, I would just read it.
00:58:00
Speaker
but it's not actually a success when someone else is reading your copy. Yeah. And, and, and hearing the way, you know, in your style, I'm almost reminded of the producer, Rick Rubin. And like, cause he famously said, he's like not a knob guy. He's not like that kind of producer. He's more of like visceral feeling the energy of the thing and be like, you maybe try this or do this a little differently. And,
00:58:27
Speaker
and dial they like not turn dials up, but like, why don't you try to do that a little more or whatever? And he's more like finger pointing and kind of more of a coach. and thats hearing He's hearing. Yeah, exactly. And I get that sense from you. that I'm feeling like almost a, and you know, a very sort of a synchronicity there in the the way you see your fingerprints and your coaching of a piece.
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think everyone needs that, right? They need a thoughtful audience. They need that feedback because it is very easy to get caught up in you know, these sort of original intentions with a story or song, or it's easy to get caught up in the knobs.
00:59:04
Speaker
yeah I actually wrote a piece this week for my newsletter about sort of like my standard for production, which is, do I need to know what this knob is for?
00:59:16
Speaker
Because if you open up a approval Pro Tools session now, especially, there are all these, you know, plugins and consoles with lots of knobs. And when I was teaching audio, I was always like, don't touch that knob.
00:59:31
Speaker
Don't touch that knob because you can totally ruin your piece and then you don't know how to get it back, you know? um And so partly it's just my own tendencies. Like I'm, I am more, much more interested in the content than the sound in many ways, you know, sort of like, what is the thing you're trying to say?
00:59:50
Speaker
The way that, how you say it is important as well, but I'm not going to get caught up in like, knob fiddling because I feel like that is not my strength. Yeah. That's really, yeah, it's really well put. And a I can't wait to subscribe to your, to your newsletter now. It's a continuous waves. Is that it?
01:00:07
Speaker
More wave? Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. It's a lark. Yeah. It's, it's my way of trying to process all of this research I did on the Neiman fellowship and try to explain electronic media. You know, it's like broadcasting is especially network broadcasting is,
01:00:24
Speaker
pushing a hundred years old now. It's actually more than a hundred years old, but you know, the big networks, NBC and CBS were formed ah hundred years ago almost. And I feel like it's changed so much in that amount of time that it's really useful to read the scholarship and to go back and also to read about how people describe the medium to themselves.
01:00:48
Speaker
Because just like you and me, they wanted to talk about how it worked. Yeah. how things how the craft works. And so people were doing that know from the 1920s.
01:01:00
Speaker
Some of it was technical. A lot of it was technical in the beginning. But then it became like, how do you talk to people that can't see you? Which is exactly the same question I'm asking and talking about with authors now.
01:01:17
Speaker
It's like the exact same problem. And they kind of nailed it in the 1930s. And I'm like, why didn't I know about these guys? It would have saved me so much trouble.
01:01:28
Speaker
Although I probably wouldn't have been able to absorb their work because they were talking about live radio. And the very definition of a podcast is it's not live. yeah Right. it's It's pre-produced. It's put out there and then you can access it when you wish.
01:01:44
Speaker
For sure. Yeah. And like, and so you've been in this a long time, like where is the, ah where is ah like, where's the juice for you still? Like what keeps bringing you back to these, to these stories and to keep working yeah aside from the paycheck, but it's just like you need to eat and stuff. But like, what, where's the energy and the juice for you in continually telling these kinds of stories?
01:02:04
Speaker
I mean, mainly it's what it's always been, which is the the chance to collaborate with people. Yeah. and to help you know sort of a mass of interviews and research, you know it may be documents and maybe archival audio or things like that, helping it cohere into a story that then people can access and they they can access at any point in time, right? So with revisionist history, people are still accessing the first season that we edited
01:02:40
Speaker
like almost 10 years ago. We did that on purpose. We wanted those stories to not be timestamped. I mean, they still sound like of their era, but the stories you could listen to and be like, Hey, you know, tell a friend.
01:02:55
Speaker
um So that's really fun and exciting. And it's also hard. So when we pull it off, I'm like, Oh yeah, we did it again. ah or we tried, at least we tried.
01:03:06
Speaker
um And then now that i' I've spent more time kind of like studying audio's past and listening to the way radio was made in the past, I'm like, oh, there's this whole treasure trove of moves that we could be using, you know? and So I feel like it's emboldened me as an editor to suggest like little bits of stage drama, you know?
01:03:31
Speaker
Like not a whole production, but just like there were bits of, the last season of against the rules that are staged, right? There's a moment where we recreate a Charlie XCX concert that and the producer who was thought she was invited to as a sports betting VIP.
01:03:52
Speaker
She thought she was going to get to go to this thing. And then they disinvited her because they figured out that she wasn't actually a VIP. Yeah. which is a high roller. And so she was just like, Oh my God, I failed. I failed. We can't go to Charlie XCX. Michael's going to be so mad at me. And I'm like, well, why don't you talk about it with him and how the concert would have been and use your imaginations. And then her co-producer was going to go with her.
01:04:20
Speaker
i was like, can you sing one of the songs to Michael? And so she did. and then we created this whole scene around it. And it was really fun and weird. yeah It's like one of the weirdest moments I've ever edited. And I don't think I would have suggested that except I was like, oh, all we have to do is get people to imagine the concert.
01:04:40
Speaker
She couldn't have recorded it anyway. because I would have given away her whole game as a secret journalist yeah and not a ah high rolling golf sports better. um So we just recreated in it and it was fun, you know, and there's a couple of other moments like that in the series. And that to me is, is been really gratifying. Cause I'm like, Oh, this stuff still works.
01:05:02
Speaker
This stuff that people happened upon this sort of imaginative suggestive power of audio I mean, I hear it in other people's shows too. I'm not the first person to do this. I'm just, now i have the courage, I guess, and the sort of sense of fluency with it that I can just be like, yeah, just make it up. I mean, it'll be very clear to the audience that we're imagining it's something. It's not real. Yeah.
01:05:24
Speaker
But let's have fun with it. And the amount of fun that we're having, I'm like, oh, we should be doing this a lot more. like We have this superpower that we're not using. So let's go. let's do it. It's really cool. It's like you found this playbook and you're like, and you like blow the dust off. Whoa, we can do this. And it's like, that's so energy.
01:05:44
Speaker
It just the energy you're bringing to it. Like, I can just see it on your face. Like,
Inspiration from Historical Audio Drama Techniques
01:05:48
Speaker
this is cool. I can't wait to try this again with some other other things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. i think I think one sad thing is that, you know, Americans especially, we are not accustomed to hearing audio drama.
01:06:02
Speaker
So we're not accustomed to hearing actors in our ears anymore. We're very sensitive to anything that sounds read or acted in a way that Europeans who've had audio drama continuously on their state broadcasters since the nineteen twenty s They can handle it, but we get really mad when we hear reenactments in audio, which is hilarious because we have them on TV, like constantly our reality shows are all staged.
01:06:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like we have high tolerance for it in video, but in audio we don't, but at the same time we can play, we can play versions of ourselves in nonfiction and have fun with it. Yeah.
01:06:44
Speaker
And the audience will immediately know that we're playing a game and they'll so get into it. Yeah. Yeah. it's just a matter of being like transparent about that. And like, this is this is what we're doing. Just like we've built some trust over this season. Like, just just kind of go with us on this. This is going to be fun.
01:06:59
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's delightful. Nice, Julia. Well, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking the guests, you in this case, for just a fun recommendation of some kind for the listeners, just like anything you're excited about that you feel like sharing with them. So I'd extend that to you.
01:07:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, in the spirit of this sort of archival goodness, um there's a ah show called Our Ancestors Were Messy. And the host, I'll make sure I got it right.
01:07:28
Speaker
Her name is Nicole Hill. And it's just such a delightful show. like So it's called Our Ancestors Were Messy. And she's taking um stories from the Black press, especially scandals, and picking a ah ah sort of but storytelling partner.
01:07:46
Speaker
and unpacking the story of the past with this other person who's got like little bits of it to read, but mainly they're just talking about it because it was gossip originally, but in a very fascinating social context, you know, of striving, of social justice, of all of these, you know, sort of debates and, you know, larger than life characters in the black press, you know, depicted in the black black press of the time.
01:08:15
Speaker
um the writers themselves have their own takes and personalities. And so she's bringing it to life with some a different person in every episode. And it's delightful. It's just fun to listen to. you And when there's archival audio, you know, they're using it.
01:08:29
Speaker
But she's got this whole, like, It's just well, well conceived. sort I'm like, oh man, I will. I want to make this kind of show immediately. i admire it as a producer, um but it's also just really interesting to listen to. So I highly recommend that. oh Fantastic. Well, production.
01:08:46
Speaker
Awesome. well Well, Julia, this is wonderful to have this talk and get a sense of how you think about audio stories and, and editing them producing them and everything. So this is just a whole lot of fun. So just thanks for carving out the time to do this.
01:08:58
Speaker
Oh, thank you for having me.
01:09:06
Speaker
Awesome. You got a podcast in your neck. Thanks to Julia for coming on the show. When was the last time Sean William Scott was impersonated on any podcast?
01:09:19
Speaker
That's where that yes always comes from at the end of this. In case you didn't know, people of a certain age, I guess. Be sure to check out the podcast she's involved in at Pushkin and head to RadioWrite.com to learn more about her and her work.
01:09:34
Speaker
And don't forget about the virtual Hippo Camp. And if you want to see me as a featured reader, the free featured reader, does that make me the headliner? Shit.
01:09:44
Speaker
Visit BooksByHippocampus.com to register and come join me and others. August 16th, 6 to 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. All right, so let's not bury the lead.
01:09:55
Speaker
Kevin's doing better, though there is a bit more management involved for those who might be attending this late. She partially tore cruciate ligament in her knee. X-rays revealed only that partial tear, but then unbeknownst to us, she has an extremely arthritic spine.
01:10:14
Speaker
So a lot of bone degradation and some disc inflammation, disc closing. It's ah pretty ugly, which is like a real cool surprise to find when you're like looking at one injury and they're like, oh, by the way, basically has like back cancer or whatever. yeah Not real cancer, but...
01:10:31
Speaker
it's debilitating and we'll likely do her in eventually. And we don't know. It could be weeks. It could be months. It could be a year. I don't know. She's wagging her tail again, in ah which is nice to see.
01:10:42
Speaker
but ah When we go out for bathroom breaks in the backyard, she has to be on leash for now, maybe indefinitely, maybe forever. She's been eating, even if that means I give her more soft food so it's more appealing to her, a little bit of Maybe it's a little junkier.
01:10:59
Speaker
It doesn't matter. i just need her eating. And she's been eating. She can get ah down into a squat for toileting, being at number one, number two.
01:11:10
Speaker
And doesn't appear to be laboring to do that, so that's really great. She's moving well, and I think the gabapentin is helping with the shoulder limping, which is probably more um spine or nerve-related.
01:11:24
Speaker
And the carprofen is helping with the knee, which is more just musculoskeletal, musculoskeletal, musculoskeletal, musculo, Low skeletal.
01:11:35
Speaker
All in all, she's herself. And we'll keep working on her rehab. that She might be able to go on the longer walks that she's used to on flat surfaces. um You can tell she wants to go. And she's pretty bummed that we don't let her jump on the furniture anymore because any acute movement could result in a full tear of that cruciate, which will send a cascade of events and a lot of questions.
01:12:00
Speaker
And we don't want that. No tears this week. Next week, who knows? I guess that's what sucks about when they're this age is that it's very day-to-day.
01:12:12
Speaker
And when they're when they're old, things can slip really fast. so They can slip quickly. And they can be great one day and then suddenly, no um So he' just the day-to-day stress kind of sucks.
01:12:23
Speaker
um But she's doing okay. She's sleeping beside me right now. Seems pretty happy. All right. So what's with this universal journaling theory, UJT, which kind of sounds like a birth control device, but it totally isn't.
01:12:37
Speaker
have a lot. of notebooks. And ah use a bullet journal for the daily tasks and general organizing. And that's pretty minimal. It's gotten kind of complicated over the years.
01:12:49
Speaker
ah His whole Ryder Carroll's bullet journaling system, you know, he's got this, I feel like he's overcomplicated his once very simple system to maybe sell more, sell like the bullet journal university. you know, it's like you make more things to justify charging people more money for the shit.
01:13:10
Speaker
I still think he's a force for good, but I think things have gotten overcomplicated. That's my little soapbox scene. Anyway, and I've kept a diary or journal nearly every day since 1997.
01:13:20
Speaker
And I go through, a I've gone through a lot of versions of these O'Mara Chronicles, which is what I named it way back when in 1997. ninety ninety seven I also have this compendium notebook that serves as ah a diary and a phone book and a general task log.
01:13:39
Speaker
It's basically a bullet journal with contacts and stuff for the next book project. Paper all the way down. Since 2021, when I started my Field Notes subscription, because i love Field Notes, I used a each packet of six themed 48-page notebooks as one collection or one edition of the Chronicles.
01:13:59
Speaker
And then you know when those are all done, I wrap them up in a rubber band and file them away. It's a tight little package, maybe a little too tight. but ah But I love it in part because they store really easily in a field notes archival box.
01:14:12
Speaker
And it's just nice. They're ah lined up neatly and you can see them and it's cool. They're sprawled all over the place. But for years, I've wanted this universal journal theory that puts everything under one style of notebook.
01:14:26
Speaker
yeah the better to streamline things. I thought that maybe I could combine the bullet journal with my daily journaling so I get my feels from the morning out. Then we see how the day proceeds and it's all together.
01:14:38
Speaker
This would likely mean that I'd go through probably four full bullet journals a year. I'm just forecasting or projecting. You know, right now I use one for every like two years or so. I keep it pretty tight. You know, it's pretty much just, you know, the the bullet tasks and various logs, but that's ah about it.
01:14:58
Speaker
ah So this morning I tried my usual journaling, the highlight of my day, in the bullet journal, and it was really cool. I numbered the entry, which at this point is number 4,281, and I wrote a page.
01:15:12
Speaker
ah In my current O'Mara Chronicle volume, I put today's date, the entry, with a C page 165 in bullet journal, just to let you know, like, yeah this is what happened on this day.
01:15:23
Speaker
Not that I really ever refer back to these things, but it's there anyway. It's not like you can't change and go back. you know there There is this sort of infidelity that you feel like when you lock into one thing that you're cheating on the other you're like, I can't, once you leave, you can't go back. You're just inanimate paper. Of course you can go back.
01:15:42
Speaker
and i I already did that one time during the this field notes run before going back to Old Faithful. was just the basically a bullet journal, size journal, six by nine kind of thing.
01:15:53
Speaker
And then I went back because i' like all right, whatever. I like the neat filing. What it really boils down to is I want to uncomplicate things. Like I'm the messiest person who wants to be clean. I'm the most cluttered person who wants to be desperately uncluttered.
01:16:07
Speaker
And so that's where all this stems from is just this need to simplify despite constantly overcomplicating and unsimplifying things, complicating things.
01:16:20
Speaker
It's the worst. It's the worst. It's basically my my brain manifest in physicality. It's awful. mean, there are worse things in the world, but it still sucks for me on a minute-by-minute basis.
01:16:35
Speaker
Anyway, so I'm just experimenting with this journal, Universal Journaling Theory. ah been I've been seeking it out for a long time.
01:16:46
Speaker
And I'm just going to keep fucking around with it. Why not? yeah I'm not much of a call to action guy, but drop me a line either on social or in the comments in Spotify. Lynn's over there on Spotify. She's the one who comments frequently over there. and yeah There are enough Spotify listeners. Go there and comment.
01:17:05
Speaker
I chime in too. It's kind of fun. Not a whole lot going on there. So I can i can go in there and moderate. have a Have a dialogue. what ah What a world.
01:17:17
Speaker
talking about journaling. Stay wild. See you, Nevers. And if you can do interview merch idea, see
01:17:41
Speaker
ya.