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Episde 476: Amanda Heckert Helps the Rider Stay on the Horse
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"The story is the horse, and the writer is the rider of the horse, and you as the editor, need to help guide them along. And if the rider starts to fall off, you put them back on, and it's your job to lead them safely into the barn. At no point should you shove the rider off the horse, get on yourself and ride it into the distance," says Amanda Heckert, executive editor of Garden & Gun.
Amanda Heckert is something of a wunderkind and an absolute boss of an editor.
In this episode we talk about:
- How she tells her writers to let it rip (within reason)
- How she found empathy for the writer side of the table, and how writers can better understand the POV of the editor side
- Writing a great pitch
- How a story is a horse the writer is the rider
- And the arc of her career that brought her back to her native South Carolina
You can learn more about Amanda at gardenandgun.com and follow her on IG @amandaheckert.
This episodes opens with an audio excerpt of The Front Runner, read by Roger Wayne.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Listener Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
Got some sales numbers for the front runner. Let's just say I got to keep selling. It's out there. I also have to remember that not everybody listens to every single episode. So there could be newbies with every podcast. So even though I've been saying this shit for 400 million times at last count, it could be the first for someone else.
00:00:22
Speaker
Buy it from your favorite bookstore and leave ratings and reviews wherever they post. Amazon Goodreads. I'm not a fan of them, but that's where people read most their reviews. Am I right?
00:00:35
Speaker
If you ever want to pay me for the show and for what I do, buy the book and subscribe to the two newsletters. ah More on those newsletters later. Whatever. This is ugly.
00:00:46
Speaker
Wow, something
Book Excerpt: 'Frontrunner' and Athletic Challenges
00:00:48
Speaker
pretty. Do you want to hear an audio excerpt of the frontrunner from chapter 13, titled Rebuilt? Here's a little bit. Read from Roger Wayne, Mr. Wayne.
00:01:01
Speaker
Steve had done something no other runner had done, which gave him a warm feeling. With his singlet untucked and eventually cast off altogether and barefoot, Steve jogged a victory lap around the stadium.
00:01:16
Speaker
scoreboard listed the top five three-mile results from the schools. MANH for Manhattan College, 5th. WST for Washington State, 4th.
00:01:29
Speaker
Back-to-back COLOs for Colorado, 3rd and 2nd. And atop the list, not OREG for Oregon, but PRE 1305.3.
00:01:42
Speaker
thirteen oh five point three
00:01:46
Speaker
With Steve's outdoor college track and field career over, he would have one more redshirt semester in the fall of 1973 at Oregon to run cross-country. He had to consider what post-collegiate running looked like for him.
00:02:00
Speaker
He would remain an amateur, but he had the wherewithal to know he was an attraction and that he had leverage. With the right degree of savvy or redirecting the brashness he had historically reserved for his rivals toward the amateur athletic union,
00:02:15
Speaker
He was testing the limits of amateur racing as it was currently structured. He planned on breaking new trail, which was something athletes did not do back then. Everyone else merely got in line and dealt with the necessary evil that was the amateur system.
00:02:31
Speaker
A week after NCAA championships, on June 16, 1973, after having initially balked at going to Bakersfield for the three-day AAU championships,
00:02:42
Speaker
Steve came within.4 seconds of breaking the American three-mile record in a time of 12.53.4. He was playing a game of chicken with the AAU.
00:02:54
Speaker
Steve thought its draconian authority over where and when an athlete could run was deeply un-American, this from an institution that purportedly gave the athlete full freedom to pick and choose.
00:03:06
Speaker
Steve had every intention of running in Europe under his own banner on his own time and dime, not the AAUs, the Declaration of Independence. I've run five years for my country on a team.
00:03:19
Speaker
Now I want to run for me. Still, by running in the AAU championships, Steve was throwing the AAU a bone. In return, Steve hoped for a travel permit from the AAU.
00:03:31
Speaker
He wanted to travel on his own schedule and run against those he deemed worthy, even make some money under the table. Steve began to realize that He and his peers had more power than they realized.
00:03:44
Speaker
If the athletes don't take the initiative in this, who will? We know the AAU and the American Olympic Committee won't. I hate to sound critical, but to me the AAU is just a bunch of old men taking medication so they can stay alive for another four years to hassle us.
00:04:00
Speaker
Right now I'm being hassled. I don't need it, really. The real question would be if Steve would race in the restoration meet at Hayward Field, scheduled for June 20, 1973, another exhibition meet, just like the Twilight Meats, to raise money for renovations.
00:04:18
Speaker
The West Stands were dilapidated and held together with spit and prayer. Bowerman was still spearheading the fundraising, and he had a headliner in Steve that could draw people out, the proceeds going into the Hayward Field coffers.
00:04:32
Speaker
Steve and 1972 800-meter gold medalist Dave Waddle were supposed to leave for Europe on June 19. While in Bakersfield, Steve hatched an idea.
00:04:44
Speaker
Steve knew Dave Waddle was going to Europe with him. Hey, why don't you just come up to Eugene in a couple of days? We're trying to raise money to restore the stadium. We'll go after the world record in the mile.
00:04:55
Speaker
I'll bring you through in 256 for three quarters. Waddle had an apocalyptic kick. was how he won his gold medal in Munich. Steve Prefontaine willing to be a rabbit?
00:05:07
Speaker
Why not? Steve knew Waddle was the superior miler, and Steve figured that the pair of them could team up for a special headlining event. Here, Steve was willing to sacrifice himself.
00:05:19
Speaker
He couldn't expect to win, but he knew his star power combined with Waddle's kick might break Jim Ryan's long-standing world record and raise a lot of money for Hayward Field. The pair were stark opposites.
00:05:32
Speaker
Waddle was tall, pale as a sheet, ran with a golf cap. He raced no longer than the mile and saved his energy for the end. He was soft-spoken, even bashful.
00:05:44
Speaker
Steve was shorter and would never cover that glorious mane of hair. He led from the front, mutton chops and dark mustache. Steve was also soft-spoken, but he carried a heavy fist.
00:05:58
Speaker
Waddle was more shy and didn't socialize much. Though Steve appreciated the quieter moments, he was just as comfortable being the center of attention. Waddle never drank. Steve made a sport of it.
00:06:10
Speaker
Dave Waddle was the NCAA mile champion, but he had never run faster than.357. Steve, to his credit, had run.355 earlier in the year in blustery conditions.
00:06:22
Speaker
We'll call it the Hayward magic. ah Deep down, Waddle knew he needed a better mile time if he was going to tell people the mile and not the 800 meters was his best event.
00:06:33
Speaker
Waddle had always wanted to run against Steve. And if that were to happen, Steve would have to drop down and set the pace. I know his plan. He'll try to
Introducing Amanda Heckert and Her Editorial Influence
00:06:42
Speaker
take me out and break me early, Waddle said.
00:06:45
Speaker
How close they got to that world record depended on Steve. He would sell out for Waddle, for Hayward Field. The day could not have been better on the eve of summer, balmy and windless.
00:06:58
Speaker
Wearing a Nike track and field t-shirt and Nike trainers, Steve checked in with a clerk shortly before his event was set to go. The stands were flush with 12,000 people.
00:07:10
Speaker
Waddle, who had just been commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Air Force Reserves, had been tabbed to run in the Air Force colors instead of his usual Bowling Green University kit. Weiland Eugene,
00:07:22
Speaker
a captain for the Air Force, gave Waddle his uniform. Waddle wanted to focus on the race, and he wasn't sure if he was supposed to be saluting or calling him sir or not. Eventually, and unceremoniously, Waddle slipped away to warm up.
00:07:38
Speaker
The plan was simple. Stay with Steve. Steve said he was going to pull them through in 256. His gift to Waddle. Waddle thought, he's the best rabbit you can have.
00:07:50
Speaker
except he's the type of rabbit who usually wins. Waddle was feeling good. He had slept 10 hours the night before and logged an easy two-mile morning run. As race time neared, he jogged two and a half miles as the stands swelled to the brim, hip to hip.
00:08:08
Speaker
Last time Waddle raced at Hayward Field was the Olympic trials a year before. After he tied the world record in winning the 800 meters, he went across the street to McDonald's and treated himself to a Big Mac meal.
00:08:20
Speaker
He wasn't much for ceremony or theatrics. And when he was called to the starting line for the super mile, the people screamed and Waddle began to tingle. Then he heard the screams for Steve.
00:08:33
Speaker
Whoa. The race went off. And just like Steve told Waddle, he paced him through three quarters of a mile in 256, Steve hugging the inside lane and Waddle coasting to the outside of Steve's right shoulder.
00:08:47
Speaker
Waddle had never gone faster than 301 for three quarters. Steve's legs felt heavy, and at this point, he wanted to explode. He had run four three-mile races in 1320 or below in 10 days.
00:09:01
Speaker
The acceleration wasn't there. He had no snap. Waddle was told by his bowling green coach that his best races would come off a fast pace, and right there before him on a platter was about as fast as he'd ever experienced.
00:09:15
Speaker
Steve put the world record in Waddle's sights. All Waddle had to do was take it. Steve rushed by the east stands with 220 yards to go. Fans knew the book on Waddle, and right on cue, Waddle surged 10 yards clear of Steve.
00:09:31
Speaker
There would be no catching Waddle, but Steve chased after him not only to keep up with the clock, but to give his people in the rickety west stands reason to cheer. Maybe the roar would push Waddle past the point of reason, past Ryan.
00:09:45
Speaker
By the time Waddle struck the tape, the time was 3.53.3, the third fastest mile ever. Waddle winced at the finish. Steve finished a few yards behind Waddle and gave his people all that remained, what would be his career best mile, 3.54.6.
00:10:02
Speaker
three fifty four point six A little girl screamed, That's okay, Pri. Don't worry about it. Years later,
Amanda Heckert's Editorial Philosophy and Techniques
00:10:11
Speaker
Waddle looked back at this race with a rare pang of regret.
00:10:15
Speaker
So much of his mindset was geared toward winning the race, not the clock. Time was secondary. He never wanted to sell out too soon. Instead of going for it and laying it all out on the track and say, hey, you know, if I can run a 55-second last lap, I can get a world record, I was holding back because I was afraid of tightening up down the homestretch.
00:10:37
Speaker
Steve, being the strong runner he was, I thought he could beat me. I regret that, truthfully. I regret that he brought me through such a great race and a great time and I didn't lay it all out there on the track.
00:10:51
Speaker
That's a weakness I had. Waddle also didn't want to like who he was running against. The better to flog them. He wanted to run angry. And after the race, with the fans still clapping and cheering, Waddle began his victory lap.
00:11:07
Speaker
Steve jogged up beside Waddle and grabbed his arm and raised them together above their heads. Waddle thought, what are you doing running with me? This is my victory lap. How stingy, Waddle remembered.
00:11:20
Speaker
How stingy of me. Steve was endorsing me to the fans at Hayward Field. He was also saying, you did that because of me. And he was absolutely right.
00:11:32
Speaker
Ernie Cunliffe, who was the coach for the Air Force working with Waddle, found Steve and told him, it was a best of life for seven other guys in the race and you made it possible.
00:11:44
Speaker
You set it up for them. Steve often made it possible for others to level up. His gift to them. The few who beat him also ran out of their shoes.
00:11:56
Speaker
Waddle bettered his best time by nearly four full seconds to win this night, the fastest mile ever run at Hayward Field, this in the Temple of Milers. Waddle recalled, If he had not brought me through in 256, there's no way I could have run that fast.
00:12:14
Speaker
was a valuable lesson for me to learn back then. I did reflect on it afterwards, thinking, no one's on an island. You have a family, you have coaches, you have teammates, you have competitors.
00:12:26
Speaker
All that together is what makes runners achieve their goals. Steve helped me learn that lesson. I was always grateful for that. The restoration meet was a beautiful illustration of Steve's evolution as a person.
00:12:40
Speaker
He started to see his rivals as peers, even if it meant falling on a sword to lift others up, all to give back to his community. These people, those stands.
00:12:52
Speaker
After the race, Steve was swarmed by children seeking autographs. He signed them attentively. One of Steve's older fans brandished a bottle of champagne in a paper bag.
00:13:04
Speaker
The fan offered Steve the bag and Steve appreciatively took a swig.
00:13:17
Speaker
That was nice, right? Got a buttery voice. So do I, man. So do I.
00:13:25
Speaker
All right, this Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. Is it my lisp? Is it because I have... i don't i don't enunciate well? I'm Brendan O'Meara, the guy you kind of like until you get to know me.
00:13:39
Speaker
Today, I've got Amanda Heckert. She's the executive editor of the magazine Garden and Gun. She's something of a wunderkind in the editing world. Talk to anyone and they'll say that.
00:13:50
Speaker
She was the editor-in-chief at Indianapolis Monthly and a senior editor... At Atlanta Magazine, she's married to Justin Heckert, who is brilliant in his own right as a narrative journalist.
00:14:02
Speaker
So you got a household who's someone who's primarily a writer and then someone who's primarily an editor. That's like peas and carrots, as they say. Do they?
00:14:12
Speaker
I prefer peanut butter and chocolate. Amanda has the steady hand of a seasoned coach. I've often mused that I'm like 10 years behind most people in my career, and I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
00:14:26
Speaker
Amanda's like 20 years ahead of most people. I mean, she'd scoff at that assessment, I'm sure, but it's kind of true. All right, let's let's let's compromise. 15 years ahead.
00:14:39
Speaker
Garden and Gun is one of the foremost magazines doing narrative journalism in the country, centering southern stories dealing with the land. Latreya Graham's written for them. Bronwyn Dickey, I think Susan Orlean recently did too. I mean, come on, come on.
00:14:54
Speaker
To say you've written for Garden and Gun, that's one of those feathers in your cap and probably one of the first three publications you'll mention in your pitch to editors to validate your skills.
00:15:06
Speaker
It'll raise an eyebrow, man, and that's due in large part to Amanda's stewardship. Show notes to this episode of more at brendanamara.com. Hey, hey. There you can find links to hot blogs, tasteful nudes, and forms to sign up for the flagship rage against the algorithm newsletter.
00:15:22
Speaker
And the hottest thing since grilled cheese and tomato. Pitch Club. Where I have a journalist audio annotated pitch that earned publication. You read a little. You listen in a little. You learn a lot.
00:15:35
Speaker
If you're a working journalist, you'll want to subscribe. If you're a journalism teacher, you'll want your students subscribing. Forever free. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. And if you want to support the show and it's infrastructure and my ego with dollar dollar bills, go to patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:15:54
Speaker
You get FaceTime with me to talk some things out, depending on your tier. It's not very organized, but it's something. Most people contribute just because they are more like a tip jar. Some people really take me up on the opportunity for me to like help them out, answer some questions.
00:16:11
Speaker
i've been to play I've been to some places, man. I've seen some things. Be sure you're checking out GardenandGun.com to read the esteemed work being done there. You can find Amanda on Instagram, at Amanda Heckert.
00:16:25
Speaker
In this pod, we chat about how she tells her writers to let it rip, within reason. How she found empathy for the writer's side of the table. and how writers can better understand the POV the editor side.
00:16:37
Speaker
Writing a great pitch, how a story is a horse and the writer is the rider, whoa and the arc of her career that brought her back to her native South Carolina.
00:16:48
Speaker
Great chat, really rich stuff, parting shot on being diagnosed with... Oh, how do I say this?
00:16:57
Speaker
Dequeerivane tenosynovitis? Seriously. But for now, here's Amanda freaking Heckert. You
00:17:14
Speaker
need to be a truffle cake. But, you know, thought it was a machete brandished. I almost always have a very specific reader in mind. I know, i sometimes wish I would have never done any of these things. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:17:39
Speaker
I work in nonfiction all day, and so i i'd go back and forth in you know, every night I read. My husband is a big reader, too, and so we I go personally go back back and forth between fiction and nonfiction, but am in the middle of finishing the third in the, Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall trilogy.
00:18:02
Speaker
And her writing has just sort of like blown my hair back. And it has since the the first one, but also just like the way, you know, obviously this is historical fiction. She's using true events as the framework to imagine what life would have been like for Thomas Cromwell, who was the right hand of Henry VIII.
00:18:27
Speaker
And it's, you know, she'll spend a whole page just describing, you know, the River Thames and how the light reflects off of it. And, you know, the thought process. I mean, I really, it's it's the, you know, read a lot, but I've just found myself really,
00:18:48
Speaker
taking the time to slow down and reread sentences and think to myself, how did she even, what was even the process that allowed her to put herself in this mind frame to write this sentence?
00:19:05
Speaker
I don't know. it has just It's really been inspiring to me and just the way that she has built this world. And you know i was was actually just speaking to some of our interns this week, and they asked me that, you know, I've been in magazines for a little over 20 years now, and, you know, how I developed my skills as an editor, and, i mean, one of the big things I told them was just just reading, because even reading fiction, I mean, you know, a great non-fiction narrative is, reads like a short story, and it has those same elements of
00:19:42
Speaker
character development, scene setting and dialogue, you know, that that makes, you know, great short stories so rich. And so anyway, that's that long story. Sure, it's Hilary Mantle's The Mirror and the Light in the third in the Wolf Hall series.
00:19:59
Speaker
Oh, that's great. And what really underscores and underpins everything you just said is, as ah it's something I sometimes call going to the game tape of something that really inspires you. you're like You read a passage and you're like, holy shit, hold on, we got to hit rewind. We got to play this again.
00:20:14
Speaker
Rewind, play it again. Yeah. So when you're reading like a writer, reading like an editor, you know, what are some of the things that you're that you're noticing, your eyes noticing that it's like, OK, you can apply it to your writing and you can certainly help coach along the writers yeah that you need to yeah elevate? Well, I um did not go to but i mean, I graduated with a degree in journalism, but I was actually had an advertising like I was in the advertising track because I didn't know what I wanted to do at that point.
00:20:45
Speaker
And so I did not have a lot of great reporting and writing classes, some, um but not in the way that, you know, my husband, Justin Heckert went to the University of Missouri. He majored magazines. He had all of these great classes and experiences and internships. And I really, once I kind of figured what I wanted to do was scrambling to catch up a little. And so again, to develop those skills as an editor,
00:21:12
Speaker
I you know have read a lot, but also, and this is going to sound so nerdy, but I also, as I started to edit features, especially and more complicated features, I would take stories that I really loved, um you know how they were put together.
00:21:32
Speaker
And ah would take like a yellow lined pad and deconstruct their outline. How did they you know, release this tidbit of information? How did they organize, you know, all of this, you know, jumping back and forth in time? And really, you know, I still, when I read read a really great feature narrative, I'm still thinking about those things and what I can bring, you know, to my own skillset and thinking about how a narrative, a great narrative is put together.
00:22:05
Speaker
But also, you know, you know, i I talk about like, you know, I do that sort of macro, Editing where it's like the big picture stuff and and that structure. And then, you know, I just as much enjoy and relish the really micro editing of like this sentence, you know, you know, I think we could have a better rhythm, you know, to end this paragraph. And what if we, you know, this word choice versus this one.
00:22:34
Speaker
And a lot of those things like a reader is never, you know, the the lay reader is never going to maybe even think about when they're reading, but it's going to just naturally be be a more pleasurable read for them because of these even micro choices.
00:22:50
Speaker
And so I think about that too, when I read like a turn of phrase or, you know, how a writer has maybe you know, the details they're bringing to that scene and what questions they must have asked in order to get that detail. These are, you know, I read for just the pleasure of reading, but I also definitely keep an eye on those sort of things because, you know, it's, that's one of the fun things about this job is that I'm still always learning and trying to get better myself as an editor and a writer.
Career Transitions and the Role of Magazines
00:23:20
Speaker
Oh, I love that. And I love how you breaking down and an article by you know, trying to ah look through it to its scaffolding and see the mechanics of it. Like reverse engineering it. so Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What what I'll do sometimes, in it like ah say there's a a profile online and, you know, it's got ads all over the place bombarding me. i will I'll take all the text and I'll copy it into a Google Doc and that way there's no distractions. And then like I'll read a certain section and I'll highlight it and put a comment here. but Okay, this is what's going on here. This is the the backstory. Okay, this is where it is. And it's just like, so kind of color code it too.
00:24:03
Speaker
And that way you start seeing the shape of things visually in that regard without the distractions of like ads popping up in your head. So that's kind of like what I like to do. If there's a a story I really want to lock into, um yeah, i'll I'll do something very similar to you. It's just really break it down.
00:24:20
Speaker
It helps. It helps. It just, you know, it helps you just just opens up the possibilities of um what. how you, a story can come together. Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
Well, modeling like that. I did that for the prologue of the pre Fontaine book that's coming out. Like I took the American Prometheus, you know, um Oppenheimer biography and ah you know, he had, he starts with the, well, they start with the death scene of the funeral of Oppenheimer right in the prologue. I'm like, well, I got a, I have a guy who has a funeral.
00:24:53
Speaker
And i so I just, I started there and I went paragraph for paragraph. I did the same thing. i'm like, this paragraph, they did this. Okay. I'm going to do this. I'm just going to use my information over their stencil.
00:25:04
Speaker
And it really, just for that particular thing. And it really kind of got me into it. And I think it would get the reader into it And it's just like, it's not plagiarism, but it's just taking, it's just taking a shape. And like, I'm taking my facts over their structure and, and doing that. And I think that's really valuable. It's valuable and certainly helped me.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yes, definitely. I mean, I, you know, again, was sort of learning a lot on the job. And um I really got a lot out of, um you know, the um books that had, you know, Walt Harrington, of course, has put together oh yeah some great books where, you know, you're you're reading like this, you know, extremely, still all these years later, a a really great
00:25:57
Speaker
um narrative, and then also, you know, getting ah sort of a breakdown from the writers, like Intimate Journalism, his his book was really like a textbook for me as and as an editor and a writer when I was trying to get better just to hear sort of that breakdown from writers about what they were thinking or what it took to put a story together. and that's why love, you know, podcasts like yours so much too, because it's, it's,
00:26:27
Speaker
so enlightening to hear how other people approach their work. Well, thank you. Yeah, it is really cool to just the the wide swath of people and how they metabolize work and model stuff and get into it, be it a a memoirist or a true like narrative journalist like ah Patrick Radden Keefe Susan Orlean or ah someone like a Mary Carr, how they get into it. It's like you can really kind of add this to cart. And then when you check out, you've got like a whole so like suite of new skills in that regard.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And it strikes to me from the outside. like i really, i look at the arc of your career and you seem like you've just shot out of a cannon in the way, the arc of your editorial career. So let's, well, you started in South Carolina, correct? And then went to Indianapolis?
00:27:17
Speaker
um So I'm originally from the upstate of South Carolina, went to the University of South Carolina. And like I said, I was, you know, sort of graduating and realizing, oh crap,
00:27:28
Speaker
this is not exactly what I want to do. i picked, once they finally made me pick a major, I picked advertising because i loved writing and I loved art. And I thought, okay, maybe this is a good marriage of those things. And it and it is, and I learned a lot and I still use those skills. You know, when we're putting together a head and deck for a story and putting together like the, you know, the opening spread of a story in the magazine, it's it's like an advertisement for you know, to for someone to spend time, you know, like you said, there's so many other things people could be doing these days. So, you know, to really hook them and having that, you know, display language and we spend so much time and think so much about it because we we do realize that we kind of have that one chance to grab a reader's attention. And so, you know, I definitely still use some of those skills from my advertising days, but I just sort of, you know, thought,
00:28:26
Speaker
once I graduated that that's not going to be maybe as fulfilling for me. And my dad um was a broadcast journalist and I never thought that was for me, but but news was always a really big part of our um household. We had, you know, multiple ah newspaper, you know, he still just has a stack of magazines like next to his chair. And always looks like it's going to topple over at any moment.
00:28:53
Speaker
You know, the news was owned all the time and So it was, I saw how excited he was about his work and his job, but you know, even 40 years into it. And, ah you know, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to to love whatever I did as much as he did.
00:29:11
Speaker
And I'd always loved magazines, um you know, especially like I was, you know, graduating high school in the late 90s and, you know, all the great naties magazines, sassy magazines.
00:29:23
Speaker
sassy teen, you know, 17, you know, that spoke to me as a girl. And then as I got older in college, like just, I still was reading so many magazines. And so I thought, you know, maybe, and it turned out that that was true, maybe magazines were really that combination of words and art that I was looking for. But I really didn't see that until I started, you know, again, didn't have any experience. I um was just sort of naively sending out my resume to magazines in the Southeast.
00:29:58
Speaker
And at that point, there weren't even that many. And um I got a call back from Atlanta Magazine that said they were looking for interns and to send them, you know, my clips. And I said, absolutely, I will.
00:30:10
Speaker
And then ah had to Google what are clips because I did not know, even know what they were. But I did have some um from school. And so I I sent those in, I ended up getting that internship. And once I was there, i was like, this is exactly what I want to be doing.
00:30:27
Speaker
I was you know mainly a fact checker, which was excellent experience for me because it was almost like learning those reporting skills and having to re-report sort of to fact check these these big features and also getting some routing experience, getting some actual clips. um But I loved, you know Atlanta Magazine was is still one of the oldest city magazines in the country. And it had um you know an amazing set of editors in chief over the years. And I loved that it was general interest and you know that one day I could be fact-checking a story about you know murder. And the next day they were sending me to a spa to get a massage to you know for a service package. And I was like, this is so much fun. And it still is all these years later working in magazines that it is
00:31:15
Speaker
so different every day and that that was certainly what appealed to my dad about his job too. But um after my internship at Atlanta Magazine, i did some freelancing for them. i ended up getting, you know, ah just applying, there were some smaller magazines in Atlanta and i ended up getting a job at a small magazine called Newcomer for Newcomers to Atlanta. and And up until that point, it was just the publisher and he'd been freelancing out everything else. um And this was his first time hiring an editor. And I, you know, had very little experience at that point, but, um, the price was right for him. And, um, it was actually, I was there for a couple of years and it was just the experience I needed because it was a crash course and how to put out a magazine. I mean, I was coming up with a storyline up, so signing them out, you know, getting them back in editing, copy editing, fact checking.
00:32:12
Speaker
I did everything, but. sell the ads and design the magazine, including, you know, paid our bills and ran our budgets and um actually physically distributed our magazine. So it was, you know, again, not having that great college, you know, background in magazines and publishing. It was, it was a really amazing um experience. And I still, you know, I'm in touch with that publisher and and every once while, I'll just send him a thank you for taking a chance on me because it really,
00:32:42
Speaker
set me up to be able to do, you know, for the rest of my career. And I had stayed in touch with some editors at Atlanta Magazine. And when a position opened up there, i got hired, you know, sort of, I really took that experience as like, ah almost like a teaching hospital. Like, I just wanted to suck the marrow of all the knowledge. There were really extremely great editors and writers on staff. but And, that you know, I kind of ended up, you know, moving to different positions, it eventually became senior editor, um editing and writing features and packages. And um I told my editor in chief at the time, you know, I think one day, I'd like to do what you do.
00:33:25
Speaker
And so um she sort of took me under her wing and, you know, showed me, um let me sit in on meetings and and that kind of thing that maybe I wouldn't have gotten to otherwise. And um then she ended up leaving and the next editor in chief,
00:33:41
Speaker
was also amazing, Steve Fennessy. The first one was Rebecca Burns. And he was such a great story editor. And I learned so much from him about like an entirely different kind of skill set from him. And at that point, Atlanta Magazine was owned by ah magazine group called MS Publishing that was based in Indianapolis. And they owned, at that point, um Indianapolis Monthly, which was their city magazine, Texas Monthly,
00:34:08
Speaker
Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Orange Coast. So they had, you know, some of the greatest city magazines, period. And it was, that was a great experience, too, because there was a lot of knowledge sharing between the magazines. But when a position opened up for the editor-in-chief job at Indianapolis Monthly, I threw my hat in the ring and ended up getting it. And, um,
00:34:31
Speaker
It was an amazing experience too. I really ended up loving Indianapolis and Indiana and was there about four and a half years in that position. And that was you a great experience for many reasons, including a terrific, smart set of editors on staff. And you know so that allowed me to grow as an editor of you know that big picture editor, but also like story editor.
00:35:01
Speaker
and also grow as a manager, which is also its own art form. And, you know, at a time when, you know, ah everyone, and still that's still the case is being asked to do more with less and how you balance, you know, your editors and writers wellbeing against what you need to get done. And it's definitely an art um in and of itself. And, but I, you know, I've definitely,
00:35:28
Speaker
I have all my family's back here in South Carolina. I have a real love as, as complicated as it is. I have a real love for this place in the South. And I met um the editor in chief of garden and gun, Dave DiBenedetto at ah national magazine award judging in New York.
00:35:47
Speaker
And he and I stayed in touch. And when something opened up at garden and gun, he reached out. So that was, i started at garden and gun, which, you know, I was, Thrilled for the opportunity because when I left South Carolina, there really weren't any magazines in South Carolina and certainly not a national magazine. And I remember Rebecca Burns, our editor at Atlanta. i remember her walking in with the first issue of Garden and Gun to our conference room but before an edit meeting. And had Pat Conroy standing standing in a fountain.
00:36:18
Speaker
um And we were like, what is this? What is Garden and Gun? um But then I took a look at it and was a subscriber ever since. So it was a magazine I loved and to be able to come back to ah home state and work here was but really a dream.
00:36:36
Speaker
You know, when you get to a high level manager, a high level editor position, ah you know, you can either steer the ship on its current course or put your fingerprints
Garden and Gun Magazine's Unique Ethos
00:36:47
Speaker
on it. So how did you approach that as you went to, say, ah yeah Indianapolis and over Garden Gun? How are you putting you know your vision into practice?
00:36:57
Speaker
Well, you know, it's it's definitely a process. You know, when i got the job at Indianapolis Monthly, The first time I'd even stepped foot in Indiana was when I went to apply for, like, to interview for the job.
00:37:11
Speaker
And so i knew two things. One, I had to really, and I did this, you know, for the the interview process, too, but I had to really do my homework because you can't, you know, um ah you can't come in and be like, well, why don't we do it, you know?
00:37:29
Speaker
Well, of Peyton Manning, you know, you don't want to have have and then have, you know, everyone who was basically like, OK, this outsider is coming in. Roll their eyes and say, you don't even know who we are or what we're about. And every, you know, when you're working at city magazines, each city has its own ethos. And, you know, Atlanta, you know, I lived there for almost eight years and loved Atlanta. It was completely different.
00:37:58
Speaker
ethos as a city um than Indianapolis. And so i went back and just did a ton of research. I read like a decade's worth of old Indianapolis monthlies, you know, read, just really tried to dive deep into what, what have they already done? What is, what is the ethos of the city? What is the ethos of this magazine?
00:38:18
Speaker
Because I didn't want to come in and have that framework already and not be playing catch up in a way that, you know, I knew that a big part of that job was going to be building trust, you know, not only because i was an outsider, but at that point I was also younger than most of the staff. yeah yeah And so, you know, going into that position and, and this one too, you know, I really made a point to within that first month, take each person, you know, individually out to lunch or coffee and,
00:38:53
Speaker
hear about what they thought about the magazine and what they thought it needed and what they thought it was was going well. And, you know, after all those conversations, starting to sort of synthesize, okay, here are the places that, you know, we could maybe immediately make some tweaks and here are some things we know we're going to need to eventually get up to But also wanted them to feel like they were ah part of the process instead ah instead of me just coming in and planting a flag and saying this is the way things are going to be.
00:39:25
Speaker
you You know, I've always been really inspired as a reader um by the breaking of story formats. um And, you know, the you know, i love New York Magazine. They've, you know, just always done just really smart things as far as like breaking apart a story and making you think about it in a different way, just from the structure or from, you know, from the graphic, you you know, how they just decide to tell that story graphically. So, you know, that was something that, you know, I've wanted to push us for in Indianapolis Monthly, and we did some, you know, really fun stuff. And and so, you know, as, and, and, you know coming to Guard and Gun, we have such, I mean, more so than any place I've ever worked, like such a loyal, engaged leadership who,
00:40:18
Speaker
Like, you know, so it's, you know, it's that balance. I wanted to, you know, take the time to learn, I guess ultimately is my answer for making changes just for the sake of making changes. And so anywhere I've gone, it's there's definitely been that taking the time to really get to know not just the magazine and the readership, but also how things work and, you know, how maybe they could be improved. And, you know, that's, i you know, our editor in chief,
00:40:47
Speaker
Dave DiBenedetto, like he's, it's, you know, we are a smaller magazine and the, you know, the grand scale of magazines, but that also means that there's less barrier to entry and like you're able to try things and it's, you know, a really fun environment in that way.
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, I know over the last ah several years, it just it seems like one of the one of the few places where a journalist or a freelancer can go to write a big, long feature that lets you immerse yourself in it. ah you know So just what has it been like to cultivate that kind of... ah yeah that kind of an ethos where you know ah writers like Latria Graham or Bram and Dickie and fill in the blank you know they can be like oh yeah I've got a long feature that could really use some ah of runway and I can I can I can take it to Garden and Gun well Garden and Gun um you know from the start has always mean it's been a writer's magazine it's you know
00:41:50
Speaker
Some of the you know top writers in the South and beyond have contributed. And that's been a really fun thing for me as an editor is to get to work with a lot of these people that I've admired or you know before I was even at Guard and Gun. you know Voice is valued. And that that sort of literary journalism is valued if it even if it's just a hundred word blurb.
00:42:13
Speaker
And... um So that, you know, being in a place that, that values that so much is um really rewarding. And then, you know, getting to not not just work with these riders, but really um' be a part of their, you know, giving them a ah platform and a place where they can share their perspective.
00:42:40
Speaker
um I mean, Latreya, For example, you know, i mean, her This Land column is one of my favorite things in the magazine, and she has such a unique perspective. And we, you know, share a lot of ah ground. You know, she's from Spartanburg County in South Carolina, where I'm from. And then, you know, but she's had a completely different experience than I have. But just the, you know, the, her love of the outdoors and her,
00:43:11
Speaker
relationship to the land and agriculture.
Building Trust and Communication with Writers
00:43:15
Speaker
The people are ah you know who are not familiar with the magazine you know still you know raise an eyebrow, understandably, at Garden and Gun, the name.
00:43:25
Speaker
And you know when it was when our i'm CEO and our ownership team, when they first developed that name, you know it was really to imbue that sort of idea of a relationship to the land.
00:43:39
Speaker
Obviously, it's a name that, you know, because of things that have happened over the years, it's, it's, it's hard, you know, to have the word gun in the name, but it's not, you know, we're not a magazine about guns. We're not magazine about gardens. In fact, sometimes we, we get letters that are like, there's no guns or gardens in this issue.
00:44:00
Speaker
You know, we're a magazine about the South and the, the modern South and, and telling those stories, you know, and and it's not just,
00:44:11
Speaker
a love of the land, but it is, i mean, ah in in many ways, a complicated relationship with the land, whether that's, you know, the history of this place and, you know, like a lot of, that you know, Latreya's story and certainly her book that's coming out, it's about her relationship to the land, a complicated relationship with, you know, losing her family's farm and that sort of thing.
00:44:33
Speaker
But then it's also like, you know, we have one of the, the, things that I really love that we do is, i mean, a lot of conservation riding and we have a champions for conservation um because, you know, that, that complicated relationship with land, I mean, it's being played out, you know, the South has, is one of the most ecologically diverse places in the world, but it's, you know, really struggling just like a lot of places because of the,
00:45:01
Speaker
things that are going on and in climate and you know, it's so anyway, it's, there's a lot to talk about, and but still a lot of people who are doing their best to counteract those things. um Getting to work with these riders and giving them a platform to just do their thing, you know, it's like, it's, it's exciting to work at a place that, you know, does value voice. And, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, obviously we get pitched stories, but then when we have an idea and we want to match a writer to it, you know, we talk a lot about who who's going to bring kind of that, you know, interest level and voice and and um that that we're looking for, for this story. So it definitely can go both ways. When you talk about a writer or giving them the leash to do their own thing, that is ah a skill unto itself to not over edit or over, you know, ah put a editor putting their thumb on the the scale too too much.
00:45:59
Speaker
there There is some of that, of course. um But ah yeah just for you, how have you learned to cultivate that skill of bringing the best out of a piece while also not infringing on a ah a writer's voice or point of view?
00:46:13
Speaker
I really learned a lot from the editor emeritus at Atlanta magazine. His name is Lee Walburn. And, you know, when I got the editorship at Indianapolis monthly, he sent me so much great advice. And one of the things he said, he was like, you know, the, he turned it into a metaphor. He was like, this, the story.
00:46:42
Speaker
is the horse and the rider is the rider of the horse. And you as the editor need to help guide them along. And if the rider, you know, starts to fall off, you put them back on and and it's your job to lead them safely into the barn.
00:46:59
Speaker
You know, at no point should you shove the rider off the horse, get on yourself and ride it into the distance. So, you know, keeping, keeping that in mind, but so much of it is about building trust.
00:47:12
Speaker
And, you know, when you're working with a new writer that, you know, that's always having that trust relationship between writer and editor where, you know, one of the things Lee always told me was, you know, the most powerful thing an editor can do is to be able to explain why, to be able to say why.
00:47:33
Speaker
And so I really try to take the time either in conversations or, you know, as I'm actually like doing the the work in the document, you know, to put comments on things and explain why. So it's not just moving a paragraph and not explaining or even a word choice. I'll make a comment and say I'm really thinking, you know, is this as precise ah as it could be? So at least as from the writer's side,
00:48:03
Speaker
I'm not just doing things arbitrarily, but they also are getting a window into why I'm making the suggestion. And they may then be able to come back and say, well, actually, you know, this is going to be better because of X. And just, you know, having that understanding. And I always say that too, when I'm giving back edits is like, these are suggestions.
00:48:24
Speaker
And if you see something that you feel strongly about, I want you to speak up because ultimately you're the one that's done the, the reporting and the the writing. And so let's let's have this be a conversation. I'm not a dictator.
00:48:39
Speaker
And so I think that's a part of building that trust. And you know then over time, it you with a writer, can have that shorthand that develops you know after you've but established that trust.
00:48:53
Speaker
you're You're talking about ah something that I think is really um really astute about building building that trust. and you know if ah If a new writer, specifically especially in this kind of climate, a freelancer is coming and wants to you know ah pitch pitch a story and the yeah say they yeah they they pitch is accepted like, okay, cool. you know How can they best establish a really good rapport ah with, with an editor. So it can be a hopefully a lasting relationship.
00:49:24
Speaker
um yeah I mean, think it's a, it's a, it's about communication. I mean, as an editor, I'm also a big fan of what i call pre-editing. So, you know, every time I assign something, even if it's a short front of book piece, you know, I do a story memo where, you know, there's a section called story notes and it's me just, you know,
00:49:43
Speaker
kind of saying, here's you know here's some things I'm interested in. What are you interested in? And here's some things I'd like to know. and And so from that point, you know whether it's, again, like phone conversations or it's happening over email, it it can be, there's um setting some expectations and we can you know start to talk, you know or narrative piece like structure, what an opening scene might be. And so you're doing a lot of that before sometimes even they start typing, you know, in in the the document for the draft.
00:50:15
Speaker
And i'm also ah big fan of Let It Rip. I mean, I'd much rather... a writer when they turn something and I'm not talking about like I've assigned it at 2000 words and you're turning it at 5000 words.
00:50:29
Speaker
um I mean, there is there is then the you know the level of respect there where it's like, OK, I've got to cut 3000 words. um But, you know, i do. i I think it's much easier for a writer to just let it rip.
00:50:44
Speaker
And I'd rather them get it all out there. And then, you know, we can dial back if we need to, but I don't, I don't like writers to feel like hemmed in too much of, you know, getting in their head
The Magazine Pitch Process
00:50:56
Speaker
too much. I mean, I live with a writer.
00:50:58
Speaker
And so I see that, you know, on, on both ends, I would say also, this is, this is hard too, but, um, patience on both ends. I mean, so my husband, Justin Heckert is a writer and he can,
00:51:13
Speaker
you know cares so much um he's an amazing writer and he cares so much like if he's going to pitch something he'll work so hard on the pitch and it's and he'll send it like i'm just making this up this scenario up but like you know he'll so let's say send it he sends it in he's like well i haven't heard anything yet and and i'm like on the other side of it i'm like my inbox is a is a an absolute chaos machine. Like I've gotten a hundred emails today. and And so being able to see both sides of it, I think for both of us really helps because he, you know, I can remind him, you know, this is the one thing that you worked on today and turned in. And then on the other side of it, this may be the hundredth thing this editor is but that has come at this editor today.
00:52:01
Speaker
And so just, yeah and and but then also it's good for me to be reminded of of that too. And so, you know, it's hard to, you know, especially at a small staff to respond to every single pitch and sometimes it takes a while and I'm, you know, but it's good for me to be reminded about that on the other end too, that, you know, they're trying to not only wield their craft, but run a business too, as an, as a freelancer. And so to be respectful of that as well in like response times and,
00:52:32
Speaker
things like that. But um i again, going back to your original question, just communication, like having those conversations up front and it not being this, like you make the assignment and it's a mystery box and then, you know, it just ah arrives in your inbox one day, which I mean, hey, sometimes that works. But, you know, when you're, again, building that relationship with maybe a new writer, a new editor, I think it does help to stay in good communication about what you're doing and how things are going. And that, uh, that whole aspect of, you sending in the pitch and it is the one, like the one thing that the writer is working on and you're waiting something like weeks or something months to hear back. And you're like, it's the only thing. yous Yeah. And you're like, Oh, they, well, it's either, it's a, it's, it's a shitty pitch. It was so bad. I can't get a response.
00:53:25
Speaker
They hate me. they All of these run the, The gamut of the emotional spectrum, like, wow, I'm really not good at this. If I was any good, would have at least gotten a over a rejection of some kind or some kind of response. And then it's like when you see the other side, like you're probably getting dozens of pitches ah a week, if not more. And it's just like, holy fuck, how do i how do you wall this off so you can at least ah try to dignify some people with a response and some people you're just not going to because you have too much work.
00:53:55
Speaker
So ah Yeah, it's such a mess. And honestly, especially, and again, just kind of showing a window into this side of it, you know, when you, when there is a good pitch, like you want to spend some time with it. I mean, when I get a pitch, you know, I don't just, if it, if it seems good, I don't just read it and say, okay, yes, it's, you know, i Googling the names in it and this, and what, you know, I'm doing a little due diligence on my end. And then I'm, you know, I don't just,
00:54:25
Speaker
you know, give things the green light without, you know, presenting them to, you know, our editor in chief, or maybe some of the other editors who maybe it falls more in their, you know, sections than it does mine. And so we're having those conversations and, you know, anyway, just, just to say that, you know, I also, it's, you know, it being in my position, at least I can't always just give that automatic.
00:54:49
Speaker
Yes. And I want to spend so a little time with the pitch, but especially when it's good. given how the volume that you receive, how do you, do you, or do you have a, um like a practice or a, a block on your calendar where you're like, all right, this is, I'm just going to work on pitches today. Or, you know, do do you have like a ah routine around that?
00:55:11
Speaker
I wish I had a better routine, but what tends to happen is that that, sort of like, even like this week and next week are when I can start like really diving into the pitches that have,
00:55:24
Speaker
come in to my inbox. And I say that because, you know, as a bi-monthly, we're on a cycle where every every two months, we have two and a half weeks where we're in production.
00:55:36
Speaker
And so leading up to like the month before those two and a half weeks are getting stories in for that issue and editing and and going through the whole process. And then the actual, you know, sometimes late nights of production.
00:55:50
Speaker
And then you kind of like can have some breathing room. And so I tend to, you know, while ideally it would be like the last 30 minutes of every day or like Fridays or something, ah just be honest, that's what it tends to be is um I get that breathing room after we've closed an issue. So, and you know, it's different for for everyone and ah different publications, but that tends to be.
00:56:11
Speaker
when when I can actually spend some time with pitches. Yeah, and what's kind of crazy too, given that you're bi-monthly, and you you know you just said it when we ah turned on the mics that you just put the April-May issue to bed, it's like as a freelancer, you already have to be, you have to have done your homework to know the the rhythms of the magazine.
00:56:30
Speaker
You already got, you got to be thinking right now in February of 2025, if you're going to pitch, if I'm pitching you a story, I'm like, I probably got to be thinking of winter 26. twenty six Like that's kind of have to think, I think.
00:56:44
Speaker
And for myself with especially new freelancers, ah have this sort of document that kind of goes through what our schedule's like. And I'll say, you know, we're right now we're putting to bed this issue. what we're going to be looking next for, you know, this issue and beyond.
00:57:02
Speaker
And then also ah have, you know, we have a pretty steady set of rubrics in the magazine. And so I kind of, have a list of the rubrics and say, here are the rubrics that are open to freelancers in the print version and some successful stories in each that might spark an idea.
Success Stories and the Role of Print Media
00:57:20
Speaker
So I think, you know, it helps to give, you know, writers an idea of that timeline because we do work so far ahead. And I will say from our end, like we, i was kind of filling in as our managing editor during the pandemic. And we actually have an amazing managing editor, Stacey Hollister, who,
00:57:39
Speaker
She's been with us for a year now. She came from, ah she was at Texas Monthly a long time, and she is amazing. And so we actually are getting more time. She's getting us more ahead, and we're getting more time to be able to spend with pitches and freelancers.
00:57:55
Speaker
you know, it goes back to that sort of like staffing, you know, thing too of being a small magazine, but even having the difference of someone who actually knows what they're doing in that role.
00:58:07
Speaker
It has a trickle down effect of us being able to spend a little more time with pitchers and pitchers and freelancers. Yeah, I love talking ah pitches with with editors too because it's so and important about what you know the how much research has going to go in. Justin, you said like he'll just really – I think people underestimate just how much work really needs to go into a pitch. ah But you don't want to do too much work because it's ah pretty much unpaid labor. Yeah, exactly. But when when a pitch really hums, you know what is it about it –
00:58:39
Speaker
that is just like, okay, this is one that I can, I'm more likely to take a, take a bet on or a pass it along to the right person and have the discussion that like, Ooh, this one, this one's got some pyrotechnics to it. We should probably go with this one.
00:58:54
Speaker
You know, i always say with pitches, make it as easy for an editor to say yes as possible. So, and of course I'm not you know saying anything groundbreaking here, but You know, sometimes I'll get pitches and it's like, we clearly have never read the magazine and, you know, don't know what we do. and And I try to, you know, reply that this isn't right for us. And, you know, when it when I get those sorts of things so that, you know, they're not wasting their time either.
00:59:22
Speaker
But to have spent time with the magazine to really understand the types of stories that we do and we're looking for, you know, we we do a mix of stories that are timely and others that are more evergreen. But, you know, to being able to say, again, going back to that, make it easy as easy for an editor to say yes as possible, like, you know, telling a little story and here's, you know, I think this could fit in this issue or this issue because here are the timings or the seasonalities.
00:59:52
Speaker
And here's also why I'm the right person to write this story. And, you know, not just making a case for the story, but also making a case for yourself. And,
01:00:02
Speaker
You know, it helps to know if if it's like their access issues, if you've even reached out to this person, if they would even be willing to be a part of this, if they've taken that extra step, it it it again makes it easier to to say yes in some regards to really get, you know, what is the X factor?
01:00:22
Speaker
And, you know, i'm I'm making this up, but, you know, even if it's a pitch for like a home story, like, ah you know, it's we We care about the story more i mean more than we do just the aesthetics, even if it's like a home or a garden story. We want there to be an actual story there.
01:00:42
Speaker
And so to get you know quickly at that X factor of all the Xs, this is the one that I think you should tell the story about because here is something that they're doing or that they have you know that that is unlike anything else.
01:00:58
Speaker
And think i think it so it sometimes it doesn't have to be super complicated. You know, it's like one of, one of the editors at Atlanta magazine always said, like, you know, you should lead with what you would tell your best friend about it. If you were telling them about it at a bar, like you're sitting there having a cocktail, like you're not going to believe, you know, ultimately just doing the work that makes it easy, ah easy for us to say yes.
01:01:25
Speaker
And also, you know, sort of helping us envision where it could fit in the magazine, whether or when it could fit in the magazine, like taking the time to kind of work through some of those elements as well helps.
01:01:37
Speaker
And when you're reading a pitch, what do you like to see? ah Do you like ah like a little scene? Do you like that voice element or a combination of yeah some of the just the the science of it versus, it you know, there's a science and art to it.
01:01:54
Speaker
ah What do you like to see in a pitch that kind of that jumps off the page? I mean, honestly, i mean, in addition to the really great idea, I mean, a magazine is a product of ideas.
01:02:05
Speaker
And so... you know Even more so sometimes, you know again, if I'm unfamiliar with the rider, yeah more so than like maybe their clips or whatever, if they have a really great idea, um you know i'm I'm willing to take a chance on maybe someone I haven't worked with before.
01:02:24
Speaker
But ah it's funny. I think this relates to ah you know when I talked to, for a while, was in charge of our internship program. And obviously, when I was at Indianapolis Monthly, I was in charge of hiring. And You know, people spend so much time on their resumes and, but really it was the cover letter I was looking at.
01:02:44
Speaker
Not even because I was looking for certain, like you've done or but like, that's the first piece of writing that I'm going to see from you. And so if you had like a voice and could tell a little story about yourself and I could see your writing in that cover letter, like that got me more excited than sometimes than seeing what, what was, you know, a bullet point on your resume. Yeah.
01:03:06
Speaker
And I think the same goes for pitches too. Like we've gotten some pitches where it's like, you know, this is someone who's taken care with their words and the idea is great. And like, I can, I can hear their voice, like a writing voice in this pitch. And so think that's, I think that's really important to this, you know, and that's why I know Justin spent so much time. He's, it's not you know just that he's sharing this great idea that he's excited about, but he's, he's making it beautiful at the same time.
01:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's and that's really really good advice because it's like if AI can do it, then what's the point? So we need like your point of view and and your voice. And there's no better way to audition that than, say, in a cover letter or your body of work or or in a pitch. like You really should invest in...
01:03:51
Speaker
Yeah. ah Coloring outside those lines. So you're like, it's memorable, even if it might need some work, at least you're like, oh, you're kind of tilting your head at your computer. Like, oh, wow, that that one has some has some firecrackers to it.
01:04:05
Speaker
Yeah. Or even like, you know, there have been some cases where the pitch just was not right for us for whatever reason. But, you know, you're like, wow, this this person is a good writer.
01:04:16
Speaker
Like we should talk to this person and maybe, you know, take the time. to work with them on what we're looking for, or maybe we try them out on something we're looking for a rider for. So the riding is important.
01:04:33
Speaker
And this this question kind of, it's kind of like, oh, what's, you know, who's your favorite child or something? But like, is is there a particular story that you've worked on or what particular story you've worked on like that you're like really proud of just in terms of what you were able to bring to the table and how the story stuck the landing? You know, does one does one or two like really come to mind where you're like, oh, wow, that one.
01:04:58
Speaker
That was satisfying that the the process of getting that to to print into the reader's hands. I mean, really, credit goes Latreya, but she did a story last year on the sort of forgotten black caddies of Augusta National. That awesome. Who aburts the masters for so many years.
01:05:19
Speaker
Just being a part of that process with her about, you know, relationship reaching out and getting these people on board. And in in some cases, you know, ah they didn't want to be on board. And, you know, um and then from our end, you know sort of helping oil that a little bit. And we're just working with her on that story because there are so many elements of like present day, you know, these gentlemen, a lot of them were, you know, getting older and in some cases had died and and capturing their stories um before it was too late. But also,
01:05:55
Speaker
working with her and, you know, really bringing all of these layers to the story as far as the history of Augusta, the history of Augusta National, also like the like the land element was so important to to this, you know, so it was, there were just so many layers and working with her to really shape that story so that each of those layers just fell just right was really rewarding.
01:06:23
Speaker
Yeah, with you know writers, like our ego is tied to certain things. I imagine editors' egos are tied to certain things. and i Where do you find the greatest satisfaction and when a when something you know when something comes out or you like your role in a and the in in the in the process?
01:06:42
Speaker
I mean, i that is a good question. Because I just just i don't know if this is going to sound like I really mean this.
01:06:54
Speaker
i I'm just excited for the writer. Like I'm excited that I got to be a part of it, but like when something comes out and it's well received, like I'm just excited for the writer and you know, it's, I mean, that's, that's my job is to help them succeed.
01:07:11
Speaker
And for, and, and, and if they succeed, it means the magazine succeeding too, but I'm, I'm, you know, obviously it's my job. I work at the magazine. I want to see it flourish, but when they flourish,
01:07:22
Speaker
we flourish.
The Impact of Storytelling and Personal Recommendations
01:07:23
Speaker
And so it's, it's fun. It's fun to, you know, help shape not just a story, but the, the magazine as well. Cause I still am a big believer in, you know, in in print too, you know, it's, it's, it's harder um to be in print these days. I mean, the production costs are,
01:07:44
Speaker
skyrocketing all the time. I mean, it's crazy, but you know we still are so far able to have a beautiful print product that you can sit down with and it it be that experience.
01:07:58
Speaker
And on the nitty gritty end of that experience, you know we're sitting here still trimming a story to fit in a text box you know versus, you know and and but i will say that like it,
01:08:13
Speaker
it's, I think a good thing and it helps us like really be conscientious of all of those word choices. And I'm i'm rambling again, but it's, you know, I, I just, I really enjoy helping shape and, and being a a part of that problem and working with writers. I mean, this is, i mean, I love to read people like, what are your hobbies? I'm like, Oh, read. mean, I don't skydive. It's, it's the ultimate pleasure is, is reading for me. And so to be able to have a job where I read all day.
01:08:44
Speaker
and i mean, are you kidding me? I mean, it's, you know I remind myself, I mean, I had ah an hour long idea, know, brainstorm with fellow editors yesterday about bourbon. And it's like, at the end of it, I was like, y'all, this is our job.
01:09:00
Speaker
You know, there is a lot going on in the world today. And it's, you know, certainly as a magazine about the South and a lifestyle magazine, like, you know, what is our place in all of this and what is our part? And I remember that was having a conversation with my mom when I was figuring out what to do with my life. And I was like, you know, it's, you know, doctors and lawyers, they're like actually saving lives. And I was talking to her about like, you wanting to go into the, in writing and the arts. And she was like, but Amanda, that stuff makes life worth living.
01:09:36
Speaker
Oh, wow. And, So that's what I always keep in mind is like whatever's going on in the world that, that perhaps we can add or a moment of um joy and enjoyment.
01:09:53
Speaker
You know, no matter kind of what's going on. So. yeah Oh, wow. That's wonderful. Yeah. Oh, very nice. Well, Amanda, I want to be mindful of your time. And it's just so great to talk to you and get your get get a sense of the arc of your career to date and just how you operate as an editor of such an incredible magazine. So it just ah as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking guests for a recommendation of some kind, just something you're excited about. And I just extend that to you, Amanda, as we bring our conversation to a close.
01:10:22
Speaker
Well, uh, it's, already mentioned one of them, um, the, the Hillary mantle series. Um, but the garden and gun, we're, we're big believers in celebrating the high and the low.
01:10:33
Speaker
And, um, so I'm going to leave you with a low, which, um, is Vanderpump rules. And this is a Bravo show that i just randomly decided to start watching, um,
01:10:52
Speaker
during the holidays, i was sort of in between shows. I love television. Like I said, my brother was in television. and I grew up in, I mean, like TV is one of my great loves too. i And I started watching it and like, you know, it was one of those things where Justin's like peering over my shoulder, like, what you watching? I mean, it's ah it's a bunch of people at a bar and in Los Angeles. I did not think this was something I'd be interested in, but it is like the most engaging reality show I've ever watched.
01:11:24
Speaker
I got Justin into it. He's been on this ride every night. It's like three episodes of Vanderpump Rules and we're, we're reaching the end of our, you know, reaching the end of the road. and I was like, what are we going to do at the end of this? I mean, we've, we've, we're, we're different people now we've changed. Um, and it's just, it's, it's, it's great storytelling and editing and the care, but you know, it's of the best cast reality shows.
01:11:51
Speaker
I've ever seen. So if you're looking for some momless fun Vanderpump rules.
Closing Remarks and Freelance Insights
01:11:58
Speaker
Oh, I love it. Well, ah well, Amanda, this was great. So just thank you so much for the work you do and, and for carving out some time to talk shop. This was wonderful.
01:12:06
Speaker
Well, Brendan, I appreciate you asking me. i'm honored to be here. is the energy so frigging manic?
01:12:18
Speaker
Yes. I don't know. Yeah. Awesome. What a lovely southern accent Amanda has. Sounds better than my trashy Boston brogue. Great stuff there. This machine just keeps on rolling. Man, it keeps on running. It's almost a self-driving machine at this point.
01:12:36
Speaker
Sure, it tramples the occasional child-sized dummy, but nobody's perfect. Show social media is at creative nonfiction podcast on Instagram at Brendan O'Meara dot blue sky dot social on blue ski.
01:12:52
Speaker
And if you need to reach me, you can also DM your mom. Some listeners of the show who hear me occasionally complain about my brittle wrists Might want an update. I'm sure you've been hanging on every word.
01:13:04
Speaker
and went to the doctor because it's a chronic issue for more than a year. When I aggravate my wrists, primarily my right one, but it also happens on my left, I can't so much as pick up a water bottle without a sharp needle-like pain that kind of shoots up my arm from my thumb, more or less.
01:13:23
Speaker
Or I struggle picking up a dog bowl. Your burly vegan is broken, man. you know Weightlifting is my primary activity. yeah So what's your beyond meathead to do? and My doctor, who seems about as interested in me as the doctor from Parks and Rec, said, oh, you have dequeer vein tenosynovitis.
01:13:43
Speaker
I was like, uh, what? Turns out it's tendinitis of the tendon that extends up or down, I don't fucking know, up the forearm, let's say, from the thumb.
01:13:54
Speaker
Rest is basically the only remedy. You can't really strengthen it because the act of strengthening strengthening it actually irritates it. So I was instructed to start using my left hand for mousing, which is really fucking annoying.
01:14:10
Speaker
It's still a right-handed mouse, so I have to use my middle finger as the left click and my index finger as the right click. yeah Beyond that, heat, some easy stretching, and a splint to limit the motion are the remedies.
01:14:25
Speaker
It's funny. The doc left the room after his diagnosis, and he printed me ah packet from the Mayo Clinic.
01:14:36
Speaker
Jesus Christ, that's Lachlan. Lachlan, let's see if Kevin's going to join in. That's Lachlan again. Lock.
01:14:47
Speaker
and All right. It's like i spent my $35 copay and the time to see the doc only for him to print something I could have done on my own. Granted, I probably would have landed on wrist cancer or something left to my own devices.
01:15:02
Speaker
So I'm not saying it was a waste of time. It's just like he just printed this thing off of the internet. It's like, hmm. And I was like, oh what should i what should I do ah you know for my wrist? He's like, yeah, I just read the packet. i'm like,
01:15:17
Speaker
Cool.
01:15:20
Speaker
Sounds good. Maybe AI doctors it won't be so bad in the end anyway. On a positive note, the nurse who took my blood pressure said it was 121 over 82, which is pretty great, I think.
01:15:33
Speaker
You know, I took it in the morning with my Walgreens one. It was 141 over 94. So I don't know what number to trust. so The nurse used a manual one and she was a bit older.
01:15:44
Speaker
So you know she's pretty skilled with the cuff. Anyway, so that's what's what. Mousing with the left hand, perhaps a splint to limit range of motion around the thumb.
01:15:55
Speaker
This is the scintillating stuff you have come to expect from your parting shots. From your boy, B.O. So stay wild, C.N. Evers. And if you can't do, interview safe.
01:16:23
Speaker
you