Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 480: Dana Jeri Maier Doesn’t Trust Anyone with a Neat Desk
2 Playsin 11 hours
"Yeah, join the club of people who feel inadequate," says Dana Jeri Maier, a cartoonist and author of the graphic book on creativity Skip to the Fun Parts.
This incredible artist is the author of Skip to the Fun Parts: Cartoons and Complaints About the Creative Process. It’s one of the best books on creativity because it deals with doubt, it deals with jealousy, it deals with ideas, it deals with perfectionism. Dana is a hilarious cartoonist and you should pick up a Front Runner and also a copy of Skip to the Fun Parts.
I’ve long wanted to be a cartoonist. I know there’s no perfect job, but I love the idea of creating something funny and whimsical and not having to talk to as many people as being a biographer entails.
Dana, Dana, Dana, is a contributor to the New Yorker Daily Shouts and the creator behind the cartoon series The Worried Well. She has illustrated for The Phillips Collection, the DC Public Library, Politics and Prose, and Museum Hack. She’s into improv and she lives in DC with her two cats and man husband.
We talk about her influences, voice and style, how she doesn’t trust anyone with a neat desk, bad ideas, jealousy, and a lot more. She’s a real treat.
Learn more about her at danajerimaier.com and on IG @danajerimaier.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Book Event Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, ACNFers, the frontrunner is out. I think it's gaining a bit more traction out there. Maybe not at my last event at Elliott Bay Book Company. Five people.
00:00:11
Speaker
But elsewhere, perhaps. Been getting some nice texts and emails. Turn those texts and emails into online reviews, please. An event!
Upcoming Live Podcast and Book Signing
00:00:20
Speaker
On July twenty seven there will be a live taping of the podcast featuring Yeboi, B.O., CNF Pods Reigns handed over to Daniel Littlewood.
00:00:29
Speaker
I don't know how I feel about that, man. 1 p.m., Gratitude Brewing in Eugene. And on July 31st, I'll be at Laurel Wood Golf Course in Eugene ahead of the U.S. Championships Track and Field Championships.
00:00:44
Speaker
first appearing with Danny and Justin on Fox Sports Eugene, then signing books from three to six. Go on, get yourself a front runner. We want to earn out this advance, people. We got to earn it out.
00:00:57
Speaker
Let's go. When you publish a book, like, you don't necessarily make any money, but you do make friends.
00:01:08
Speaker
I don't know what it is about pasta and pesto, but man, once I start, I can't stop. Hey,
Interview with Dana Jerry Mayer
00:01:14
Speaker
CNFers, it's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show that dives deep into the art and craft of telling true stories, talking to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. Got Dana Jerry Mayer today.
00:01:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. This incredible artist is the author of Skip to the Fun Parts, Cartoons and Complaints about Creativity, one of the best books on creativity because it deals with doubt, deals jealousy, ideas, perfectionism.
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, because i I don't know. I mean, I feel like there's a glut of advice out there. Like, what am I going to add? I just wanted to create something as honest but not advice-y as I as i could. So that was ah that was the goal.
00:01:59
Speaker
Dana is a hilarious cartoonist, and you should pick up a frontrunner and also get a copy of Skip to the Fun Parts. came out a little less than two years ago, but evergreen, and one of those things you can just pick up and get a little get a laugh and get a little inspiration from.
00:02:17
Speaker
What more can you ask for than a little bit of a laugh and a little bit of inspiration? I've long wanted to be a cartoonist. I know there's no perfect job, but I love the idea of creating something funny and whimsical and not having to talk to as many people as being a biographer entails. Show notes to this episode and more at brendanomera.com. Hey, hey, there.
00:02:38
Speaker
You can find links to hot blogs and forms to sign up for the flagship Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. as well as the hottest thing since me and seven inch in seam shorts pitch club, where I have a journalist audio annotate a pitch, ideally a cold pitch that earned publication.
00:02:57
Speaker
If you're a working journalist, you're going want to subscribe. If you're a journalism teacher, make your students subscribe forever free. Welcome to pitch club.substack.com.
00:03:08
Speaker
And if you want to support the show and its infrastructures with a little dollars and cents, You can go to patreon.com slash cnfpod. You get FaceTime with me to talk things out, depending on your tier.
00:03:20
Speaker
It's not very organized, but it's something. And maybe one day I will make it organized. Or maybe part of its charm is that it's not organized.
00:03:32
Speaker
Dana,
Dana on Influences and Transition to Cartooning
00:03:33
Speaker
Dana, Dana is a contributor to the New Yorker Daily Shouts and the creator behind the cartoon series The Worried Well. She has illustrated for the Phillips Collection, the DC Public Library, Politics and Prose, and Museum Hack.
00:03:49
Speaker
She's into improv, and she lives in DC with her two cats and her man-husband. You can learn more about Dana at our website, danajerrymayer.com.
00:04:02
Speaker
And you can follow her on Instagram at Dana Jerry Mayer. And she has a funny substat called skipping to the fun parts.
00:04:15
Speaker
Tricking yourself into creating art one post-it note doodle at a time. Huzzah. Go check out her work. As we talk about her influences, her voice and style, how she doesn't trust anyone with a neat desk, bad ideas, jealousy, and a lot more.
00:04:34
Speaker
She's a real treat. I mean that. Part and shot about how spin rate and baseball is metaphor for the writing life, as well as two dead nutria.
00:04:45
Speaker
Here's the montage riff.
00:04:54
Speaker
And of course, you know, i mean deadlines help. and And then sort of sit back from the suck-itude. If you want tenacity, get the fuck off social media. Don't be a dick. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:05:19
Speaker
New Yorker cartoonists are like, I'm such a fanboy for you guys. Oh, that's nice you to say. It's funny. I was at this party with a bunch of other New Yorker cartoonists, a couple, it was like like in February, and I feel like everybody there had like the biggest imposter syndrome.
00:05:35
Speaker
Like I went to shake shake one guy's hand who I'd ever met, and he he the first thing he told me he was like, well, you know, I've only had one cartoon in the New Yorker ever, so I don't know if I really belong here. And I was like, that's cool.
00:05:46
Speaker
I don't care. I wasn't about to judge you. I don't know if I belong here, but, you know. Oh, my God. it is It is so funny the degree to which everyone kind of thinks they're a fraud compared to everybody else.
00:05:58
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, and like ah similarly how I fanboy ah but about the cartoonists, i similarly so because I'm mainly sort of a journalist and – And a writer, um it's like profile
Imposter Syndrome in Art
00:06:10
Speaker
writers for the New Yorker. I like talking. That's why a really fanboy. That stuff. And like Nick Palmgarten, Nick Palmgarten is one of my all time favorites.
00:06:18
Speaker
And i spoke to him ah couple of weeks ago. And it's so funny. When we were off mic, he was saying so he finally like I'm using the term finally because that's kind of what he said. Like he finally has a book coming out.
00:06:31
Speaker
And he just felt he was telling me how much of a fraud he felt like for being a New Yorker writer. And he hasn't written a book yet. and i'm And I'm sort of a nobody.
00:06:42
Speaker
And I've written two books. I feel like a fraud because I haven't had features published in magazines like The New Yorker. Yeah, it's just so it's just so fucked up how we kind of ah how we compare ourselves to others and how we always feel a bit fraudulent and impostery.
00:06:58
Speaker
And it's just like, oh my God, like I look at Nick, I'm like, you are the apotheosis of what I want to do. And he's, and he feels like a fraud too. that That's so sad, but like, yeah, I totally get that.
00:07:10
Speaker
yeah but Oh, man. Yeah, it's ah it's wild. um but ah But yeah, I think as we kind of, you know, as the duck landing into the water, we can kind of roll into our conversation. And um yeah, just ah just as a ah batting lead off kind of question, like, how did you walk into um to illustrating and drawing and in a and drawing comics?
00:07:36
Speaker
Well, let's see. So i i was you know an artsy enough in high school. i went to to art school after I graduated and I studied illustration. And then right when I graduated, I realized I did not want to be a freelance illustrator, which I guess in my head involved, like, you know, you send your work to you know art directors and they take you or they don't.
00:07:57
Speaker
um And I had a few like you know very sad, low-paying jobs doing that. And I thought, oh oh no, i've I've wasted my career. I've wasted my education. This is not what I want to do at all. So then I decided, okay, well, i'm I'm just going to be a regular artist. I'm going to draw the kind of art I like to to make and just have a you know day job to pay the bills. And but that was kind of my ah guiding principle for a while. So was I was kind of at that point, I decided I was more of like a fine artist, which basically meant that my work was you know, not really going to appear in a magazine. It was going to appear on a wall in a gallery somewhere. um And also, I don't think my work really made enough sense to be ah considered illustration. It was a little little abstract, a little not.
00:08:37
Speaker
It was still like what some people called cartoony, but it was, you know, it it wasn't like giving you a clear message of, ah, yes, this is exactly what what this is. ah But then I guess over the years, I just found myself incorporating like more and more text into my art, just organically. And then at some point I thought, okay, I guess I'm going to have to admit that I'm a cartoonist now. So I started making like these still kind of like weird, a little like less um cartoons that were more cerebral at first. They they weren't, they didn't really have like strict punchlines. They had like a lot of texts and like a lot of like mini punchlines.
00:09:13
Speaker
But then I got to ones that are a little more direct. And then at one point, I felt like I had enough that I could actually submit to New Yorker. And then that kind of that's when um I guess my my art career kind of, yeah, that's when I got some momentum. I i was able to you know tell some stuff to the New Yorker. I got a book deal ah when one of those went viral. and um And I guess, ah yeah, that's that's what I've mostly been focused on for the last ah couple of years.
00:09:37
Speaker
Yeah, I love hearing you talking about like getting the momentum, but until you reach that point, it can be really frustrating. Tires spinning in the mud, walking up the wrong, you know that walking up the down escalator, and you just feel like you're not getting anywhere.
00:09:53
Speaker
ah Maybe like take us to those moments of that frustration of trying to get that traction and that coveted momentum that you've been able to parlay ah to skip the fun parts and beyond. Yeah, ah well, I guess I would, I don't know. It's a like, it never feels good to get rejected. i always have to to like remind myself, like that's like the natural state of things, being rejected.
00:10:14
Speaker
ah but i'm But i think it was just like so many like little small moments that it didn't feel like there was like this one, this one big one. Maybe when I got my agent, that felt like a big, like, oh, this is a milestone.
00:10:28
Speaker
I'm trying to remember like all like the sad little feelings. I think what actually made it like more fun, and and this was, like I guess, maybe 2018, 2019, when I was just kind of like kind of a cartoonist, but kind of not. I was just sort of like putting stuff on Instagram, and I was actually making friends on Instagram because we'd comment on each other's work. like It felt like there was this...
00:10:46
Speaker
sense of community and like nobody was really I never felt like oh I need to yeah nothing needed to happen from it I was just enjoying myself but then I guess once you uh you know once you started caring a little bit more and more about like metrics and like actual markers of success that's when you're like oh crap now now uh now that have some skin in the game I really I'm following these things way more closely Did that experience start to chip away at the fun you were having with it?
00:11:18
Speaker
hu guess was fun in a different way. it was It was kind of like I saw, like okay, this is what the assignment is a little bit more clearly. like i i be i began to pay a little bit more attention as to like what stuff you know would sell versus what stuff was going to just be kind of like fun for me. um And I feel like i always have that in the back of my mind, but at least now that I know that, I don't feel as though I have this idea.
00:11:42
Speaker
yeah you you You know, you you definitely don't want to ah only make stuff because you think somebody else will like it or the other will sell because that is well, for one thing is if you make something positive, it will sell automatically won't. That's just, true you know, how it works. But yeah, I think it's like, I don't know It's so obvious when an artist is like enjoying them themselves and when they're not, an artist is just sort of like following a formula that they think that they need to. You can see that immediately, I think, in work.
Balancing Art for Fun and Profit
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, there hearing you talk about the that degree to which, you know, when it became like a true vocation versus when it what might have been more kind of an on the side thing.
00:12:20
Speaker
There's a moment in Skip the Fun Parts too where you have like, you know, the pro sitting at the desk and kind of like grinding through it and the other voice coming and be like, hey, you should, you know, this why be a, why chain yourself to the desk if you're not feeling it? Like go out for a walk and this back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
00:12:37
Speaker
it was Is that kind of ah the dichotomy that you've wrestled with, also like kind of like the pre-turning pro versus you know the the one who was doing it more as a on-the-side or a hobby?
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that I wrote that cartoon because I agree with both of those opinions flat out. Like, I feel like... For real, yeah. Yeah, I was trying to resolve that in my head and then somehow it just became a cartoon.
00:13:03
Speaker
and Because I think, you know, the the one who's just like, yeah, you know if you're not feeling this, you are basically just wasting your time has a very good point. But the person at the desk who's like, well, you know you're you know, a lot of times it involves things, doing things.
00:13:15
Speaker
You're not going to feel like doing your work 100% of the time. You have to just, you know... Plow through also has a very good point. um So i I don't know. And and I just think at the end the cartoon that never really gets resolved and it still isn't resolved for me. So, yeah, it's like ah Michael Lewis, the yeah, the the writer, like some of his big advice to so many people is just like.
00:13:36
Speaker
And you hear there's not wholly original, but it's just like, just sit your ass in the chair. Like there's no escaping it. You got to just, whether you like it or not, whether you're in the mood or not, whether you're in the flow or not, whatever the hell you want to call it.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's like, there's no substitute for just getting your ass in the chair and just staring at the page and grinding it out. And, but to your point, see both sides of it really. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, you're you're not going to get very far if there's, you don't, you know, you just don't force yourself to sit down and do that thing you don't feel like doing. But what I always found is that whatever you get down and do it, it's not as bad as it was in your head.
00:14:16
Speaker
And I'm like relearning that lesson over and over again for some reason. Yeah. And I love getting a sense of when I'm talking to writers about voice and style, and that very much extends to comics and illustration because that ah there is lots of voice and style.
00:14:34
Speaker
And ah how did you arrive at your particular voice and style? Hmm. That's a good question because I think so much of it was very unconscious. ah Right. It evolves. Yeah, it evolves. But you realize like if you just kind of go through your work and and you look back, you see like, oh, there's these themes that I find myself just talking about over and over again. um Like museums, for some reason, they keep coming up in my work or um creativity in general, which is how I kind of got the idea for Skip to the Fun Parts because that became like this running theme.
00:15:07
Speaker
but i that I saw and then I guess I had enough to say about it that I could fulfill fill a whole book with it. But yeah, it's really accidental. I think if there's something that just makes you like really, get eat you know, like like it's funny you get those those questions a lot like ah how do you kind of come up with your style and it's just the way you are stuck drawing or or stuck writing. Like a lot of it is so not up to you in the first place. You just sort of work with what you got and then refine it ah to the best of your ability and somehow that becomes your style.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And you see it across, ah be it writers, ah even through particular point of view and even ah just like conversation and interview podcast or everything is just, there is this kernel and then it gets ah more and more refined as you go. And you look at like early Calvin and Hobbes or yeah early Farside early Garfield like those are pretty raw drawings but through the repetition of thousands of them they get really polished over the end but it's always still the same kernel of that voice and style so yeah its it is like this evolution and really like refinement over time
00:16:20
Speaker
That's a good point. Have you ever seen like the early XKCD cartoons? Like even those are stick figures, but even those like they were really crude stick figures and they became kind of elegant stick figures. And he was also being a little more, you know, weird and experimental at first until he figured like, oh, I'm the science guy or whatever, however yeah however he would describe himself as whatever cartoonist he is.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah, the early Simpsons are like super crude. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, like nasty crude. Even like the furt like the the first two seasons, they were even kind of gruesome.
00:16:51
Speaker
And then they definitely kind of scrubbed some of that out and polished it up. So like the you know seasons three through nine, or ah that and that's basically when I stopped watching. but like ah But it was just like those, a degree of refinement to your to your point. Like the initial kernel and the initial voice and style was there, but like it got...
00:17:08
Speaker
it just got better and tighter through that repetition. Yeah. Yeah. It's a process to figure out what kind of artist you are or want to be. And you need that time. i think it's kind of nice when nobody's really paying attention to you and you get to figure that out. Yeah. was On your own.
00:17:25
Speaker
um I mean, I guess. Obscurity is so good. and It's great. Yeah. No, it's, it's really underrated. i agree. Yeah. Who were some of the the cartoonists and illustrators that you locked into that helped ah build the base of your own style when you kind of broke out of your own, you know, broke out on your own, so to speak?
00:17:44
Speaker
Hmm. Let's see. ah There's one you might not have heard of. ah His name is Richard Thompson. he's ah He did the cartoon called, um ah what is it? Cul-de-sac um and Richard's Poor Almanac. He was kind of a DC local. He kind of gets had this cult following.
00:18:01
Speaker
um But he's one of the best artists I've ever encountered. And he's just really... really smart and really had this great, really good writer, but really really incredible artist as well. He had like this really playful line. Now I wish more people have heard of him, um but yeah, he's ah he's amazing. And because I grew up reading him, I think he was always kind of like locked into ah my brain. um Let's see. i also love Lisa Hanawalt, obviously she's great. And I love that she,
00:18:31
Speaker
I mean, she has, like, six different, like, mediums that she works with. And you can always tell, like, oh, that's Lisa Hanawalt. Because, you know, she draws a certain way. But she draws a certain way if she's using, what that you know, watercolors or just pen and ink or I guess, so you know, whatever it happens to be. And, yeah.
00:18:48
Speaker
And yeah, and she's so honest and pervy and weird. um i I don't know. if you I just love her work. I'm trying to think of other artists. Saul Steinberg, I think, is like kind of like everywhere. Anybody who's like remotely associated with the New Yorker cartoonist will love Saul Steinberg.
00:19:06
Speaker
He's the guy who did ah he you know that that famous New Yorker cover, like View from New York. And it just says, New York is like the center of everything. And then it's like everything else in the far distance. Yeah. ah but He's that guy. you You would have recognized his work. um But yeah, he does like these really great, playful line drawings.
00:19:24
Speaker
um And ah yeah, he's another one who always just manages to capture everything but with a couple of lines and ah which i think is what ah cartoons are always aiming to do what comes first to you the the writing or the drawing that's such an in obvious question and i i think it changes from time to time i think usually like if it's a Something I'm working out in my head, a a lot of times it's the writing. Like I'm just kind of sketching a note and then I'll ah'll put the notes down and then some like crude drawings to ah to accompany them.
00:20:01
Speaker
But a lot of times ah when I'm just drawing for the hell of it, don't know, I'll create my own like, this could be a caption contest except, ah you know, there's no caption. yeah Yeah, they definitely they definitely work to together.
00:20:15
Speaker
i think I think a lot of times lately I've i've been starting with the writing and i kind of wish I could get more to starting with the drawing. yeah
Admired Cartoonists
00:20:23
Speaker
Because I think that's that tends to be more fun, like drawing just because you're because you don't have an idea is ah I don't know, the purest form. What would you identify as like, you know, your, something like your, your, your favorite peers. Like when you see, see someone in New York, like a, you know, like a Will McPhail and you look at his stuff and he's just like, Oh my God, like he's just like so smart and funny and his drawings are beautiful too.
00:20:47
Speaker
And it's like, you look at that, like who, are who are some of those that you admire and you're like, damn, that, that, that is, that is good. i like that. Oh, well Will McPhail, obviously. He's great. Yeah. I love Emily Flake, obviously. She's, ah she's, do you know her work?
00:21:02
Speaker
A little, yes. A little a little bit. Not, not as, oh yes, she's yes, yes, yes. She's coming, coming to me now a little more. ah i think yeah her famous one was, ah you know, the, ah the guy who said, um ah he's telling his kid on the playground, um remember son, ah if he can't say something nice, say something clever yet devastating.
00:21:25
Speaker
ah um I don't know that's her most favorite New Yorker cartoon. It's definitely up there. um Let's see. I have a lot of, now that i'm I am kind of in that little group from to some extent, I see friends in the New Yorker and that's always fun. um I have ah these two cartoonists, Busy Koi and Elisa Trasser.
00:21:47
Speaker
They're like a duo and they, yeah which I think is amazing. It's like very, and ah what's the word? ah Like that's how we used to work in the, and I guess when the new Yorker was just starting out, like the art the artists and the caption writers were two separate sets of people.
00:22:02
Speaker
that's what they do. Like Busy's a writer and and ah Leah is the um artist. So they they collaborate to create these really great cartoons. um So I love seeing their work in the New Yorker. yeah there's a Yeah, but there's some like the i the cover writers, ah the cover illustrators, they're kind of like a different species too, right? They don't typically do, but that's not necessarily true. like No, you're right. like It's very rare that like a cover artist does like a cartoon. Like Roz Chast is one of the few who bridges that. Yeah, Roz does. And you you've had a cover, right?
00:22:34
Speaker
Have you? Sadly, no. But i'm I'm really flattered you think so. Yeah. I thought I saw that in like the background of your office in an image. like but Maybe on your web website, it looked like there was a New Yorker cover.
00:22:45
Speaker
It was probably by Saul Steinberg. Yeah, it's one I have framed in my room. But okay again, very flattered that you think I would do that. Yeah. Well, i will i what one of these days, I hope so, because you've got you know you've got that whimsical sensibility that I think plays well to a New Yorker cover.
00:23:00
Speaker
I think ah Daniel Close, i remember I remember reading an interview with him and he he's a obviously one of the greats. And he said that New Yorker covers were just meant to make you say, they weren't meant to be funny, but they were meant to make you say, oh um so So it's like that kind of humor.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah. You know I always love getting a sense of ah the the doubt that a lot of us wrestle with. and we we all do to some extent. And I wonder just for you, like when you're feeling like inadequate in this line of work, you know, how do you wrestle with those feelings?
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
i I mean, I think that's unfortunately like kind of the default. Like you're never going to feel like, ah like usually if you don't feel that doubt, that's like when you're having a good day. So I think you're just going to get used to, you kind of get used to it and you're like, a you know, shut up. um so it's it's ah it's become so, and likely yeah, like you were saying, like it's because it's some, like the way everybody feels that you really, don't know, acknowledging it is almost self-indulgent. in in a way it's like yeah yeah fine join the club of people who feel inadequate you know just yeah just get on with it yeah my rule is like if i do get like if like it's a day i receive rejection um i get to feel bad about it for like 24 hours but after that you know you have to move on
00:24:21
Speaker
Right. Yeah. No, that's a good, that's a good way of thinking about it. And I love how, you know, in skip the fun parts too, you have a, in exchange between two characters where, uh, it's not necessarily doubt, but it was just like naming the bad feeling. Oh, that's just Fred. yeah fred And it's just like, Oh yeah, go away, Fred. Shut up, Fred. It's like, okay.
00:24:42
Speaker
If you can personify it in that way and just be like, yeah, you're not serving me, man. Like get out and get the fuck out of here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's just some guy. Just some guy. And I i love the this this idea, like, we where you start at the start of Skip the Fun Parts, which I reread again this morning.
00:25:01
Speaker
um it yeah There's a the the little fairy where you have, like, the infinite supply of good ideas that, you know, sounds, that might sound dumb the next day or won't sound dumb the next day.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, i I love that sentiment. And also like a little bit later about this bad idea box. ah Talk about that, because that's really important, I think, for creative people to wrestle with bad ideas, because it's only through that that you start to graduate to good stuff.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um Like I said, I think a lot of my cartoons are me just like wrestling with a personal problem that I'll manage to to ah to jot down. But yeah, I think, yeah, I feel like sometimes you you just feel like you're swimming in bad ideas and that's all you're coming up with until, and yeah, exactly. You just feel like they're getting delivered to you and that's it. Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
um But yeah, it is really a matter of just... and I don't know. i've i For some reason, I thought like getting a box of bad i ideas delivered was hilarious to me. So that's kind of where that image came from. i i decided to make it into a whole cartoon.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yeah, and and ah it's funny too because um I feel like some some people work by just coming up with... like like They'll just throw spaghetti at the wall. They'll just say like they'll just put you know come up with ideas.
00:26:14
Speaker
So many ideas. And they don't care if they're bad or not. They'll just... like It's quantity, not quality. And for me, I feel like a lot of times, too, it's just like it's like it's very it's more binary than that. It's like I have either zero ideas or an idea.
00:26:29
Speaker
And it's not necessarily good idea, but it's something I can poke at enough that I can make something out of it. Yeah, well, and it's something that you've written about and it spoke about with like in your improv saw workshop.
00:26:42
Speaker
Oh, you watched that? Or attended? I did. did, yeah. Oh, that's what you're saying. For a bit of research. And you're thorough. Yeah, you know, i they I try. I try. And I, but this idea of on, of course, and this idea of honesty, like that's really where maybe you're less jokey things end up being the most popular because you're being honest. Maybe you can speak to that.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. It was, um no, I love improv. I, unironically, I think everybody should take a class. um It's great. And ah yeah, no, and I think that's, ah I'm in level four now. All right. Yeah, yeah. yeah No, climbing ladder. um No, I'll probably be in the Herald team in five years, the rate I'm going.
00:27:27
Speaker
ah Who knows? But i yeah, I feel like, um yeah, they they keep trying to remind, keep having to remind you, like, do not try to be funny. If you try to be funny, you're just going to clamp up. You know, the the funny will come. You just have to keep going and say something honest and, yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
And yeah, and once I heard that, it was like, oh yeah, that's a really good point. It applies to every, you know, it doesn't just apply to improv. It applies to cartoons. Like if you so if you try to um if you try to be funny, that usually does not work unless you are really, really not what you're you're doing. It's more um for for the rest of us, just try to say but something honest.
00:28:04
Speaker
And somehow if you're honest enough and you will get to the funny part. Yeah, it's kind of like in the ah the universal lies in the specific. Like if you can get something real concrete, it it just relates. You'd like, oh, yeah, that's like I feel seen.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to be like, what is a great statement I can make about the state of the world? You know, it's more just like what are these little moments ah that happen? Yeah. And how would you you kind of alluded to it, but how has improv maybe helped your cartooning?
00:28:37
Speaker
Well, definitely the the way I approach humor. I thought that was, it just made so much sense for me. Like, oh yeah, this is, a yeah, but that seemed to go hand in hand. I think just seeing actually the contrast to how improv works and how cartooning works was kind of revelation for me. Like, I feel like the problem with cartooning is that like, it's,
00:28:58
Speaker
Maybe not even just cartooning, but like if you're you know sitting alone by yourself, you know distractions are everywhere. And then with improv, you do not have that luxury. like you have to be in like You have to be in the scene. You have to be you know on the back line like looking and seeing what other people are doing.
00:29:13
Speaker
So I think that kind of helped. like it It was a way to... show me how there's ways you can really force yourself to focus. And I think that that definitely ah that helped. I can't say like specifically like how that helped my cartooning, but I feel like that gave me like a little and know firmer legs to stand on somehow.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah, oh that makes sense. And yeah, speaking of how um fractured or splintered our attention is and managing those distractions. Yeah. How do you do that so you can yeah know try to have a decent session at your at your ledger?
00:29:47
Speaker
yeah Just given how bombarded we are with and just incessant attention grabbing things. Well, I'm not as a pro as this is. I feel like as I wish I would um would be would.
00:30:00
Speaker
That being said, know lately I've gotten into the idea that you should have a workspace that you really like going to. Like it should feel it should feel cozy.
00:30:13
Speaker
i think I've gotten into the whole mindset, like your physical surroundings, um... ah influence your state of mind oh a lot lately. And um so I don't know, embracing that kind of means that I've gotten very good at, you know ive i pray you know, I want to make sure that like, okay, if I have stuff at my desk, I have a system, I know where all my pens go. I have this thing for like holding up books. I have like these drawers where I can, you know, this is where all the junk paper goes. This is where all the finished product goes.
00:30:43
Speaker
um So just having like that basic stuff has really helped me. um And I like to surround myself with um other people's art. Like in the rest of my house is basically a vanity gallery. Like I just have like like all of my art that I can't store anywhere else. But in my room, I just have um art from like my friends who are artists or other artists I admire just and on my walls. And I don't know, for for some reason that makes me feel more um whole. I don't know. I don't know what the right adjective is.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's something to be said for like the context of ah of a room. Like when you enter the, you know, the space you're in now, like it it does something to your brain where like, oh, this is where, ah this is where I construct these things. This is, you know, where I, where I do the work that I, know, that I love to do that pays the bills, et cetera.
00:31:31
Speaker
It's, uh, it's kind of the, it's really tricky when you work from home to like have the like separate contexts, but it's, it's a But I imagine, yeah, if you create the right space, it does help the mindset. And you kind of drew a cartoon about that too, about messy desks.
00:31:45
Speaker
and there Oh, yeah. and i I imagine that that is ah inspired by your particular desk and you took it in different directions. Yeah, that's like, the it's so funny because that's like the laziest way to come up with ideas. Like, just look around you. make Can you make a cartoon about that printer or, you know, ah that lamp? Oh, a desk? Hey, actually, there's some stuff here.
00:32:06
Speaker
I guess you're a messy desk guy, am my correct? Or you're a neat desk guy? I wish I was a neat desk guy i I wish I was a neat anything guy. But it just, it doesn't happen, Dana. It just, i my out-of-the-box software is just so, where I have to do these constant software updates in my brain, and it just, i always regresses to the mean of just chaos.
00:32:33
Speaker
I don't trust neat desks anyway. So, uh, yeah, I think I put that in the, yeah, that's that you're, you're just, you're, you're just over cleaning because you're avoiding something. Yeah. My theory. Missy desks mean you're actually working.
00:32:46
Speaker
Perfect. All right, we'll get along just fine. Yeah. um There's a ah moment and in the book too, ah early early on when you're admiring your second cousin's drawings. And um you know she's six-year-old girl.
00:32:59
Speaker
And you said like you're trying basically trying your whole life to figure out how to draw in that uninhibited way you know that a six-year-old does. And it's, you know, yeah over the course of our just maturing, you kind of get away from that unbridled sense of creating without judgment.
00:33:19
Speaker
And how have you um tried to, how have you embraced, you know, that ethos, you know, to this day? Yeah, I love her work so much. And yeah, and I think um little no little kids kind of understand drawing in a way that adults have definitely forgotten.
00:33:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah, actually, speaking of my wall of inspiration, I have like two of her. No, not not her, but another six year old ah of of mine. Like I have her work on my wall right now. And yeah, the the pieces are amazing.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, getting back to that is, I don't know, I think I might have to accept it's impossible. Like you can, you know, you you can't can't go back in time and become six years old again. i think the best you can do is, you know, use whatever... um tricks and shortcuts you know in order to, you know, draw draw the sort of thing that you you want to draw and draw it in the way that doesn't necessarily have to make sense or stick to, you know, proportion or perspective. Like, just telling myself, like, I don't have to follow those rules if I don't want to has been really helpful.
00:34:25
Speaker
I think if you if you want to draw things that um look like the things they look like, as Homer Simpson says, you kind of have to, you know, there's there's some rules you got to follow, but, you know, you don't always have to. So I think giving yourself that permission to to not all the time ah really helps.
00:34:42
Speaker
Because, you know, a six-year-old wouldn't. Yeah. Well, and you like piggybacking on that, you write that it came down to conviction.
Child-like Creativity and Adult Challenges
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah. And like they write, they draw with a certain conviction that is and devoid of, of judgment and being judged and getting to that point is, yeah, it's so hard as an adult.
00:35:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, because you're constantly judging. You're judging yourself, you're judging others. You know, that's like how you operate. um But yeah, they're not really thinking in those terms yet. God bless kids.
00:35:14
Speaker
um Yeah, I feel like that's, no, and and that's really, you know, you kind of forget that skill and then you have to re-remember it. I love to in the book ah where you are harnessing the narcissism of comparison ah come and and and coming out, coming up with ah a nemesis.
00:35:37
Speaker
And ah maybe you can tell us a little bit about your nemesis in Pendergast. ah Yeah, I'm trying to be better. i was ah I've been trying the Sam Harris meditation and he's very anti-comparing yourself to others. I was like, oh, rat I'm really doing it wrong. Yeah, I think...
00:35:54
Speaker
ah yeah i think um It got to the point where I finally was just like, this is too much negative energy. I have to just mute people who are just making me feel um feel things I shouldn't be feeling, which I think has been helpful. I mean, there's always going to be something else to fill that void, especially on Instagram.
00:36:14
Speaker
But yeah, I feel like ah you you do get a lot of clarity when you see what kind of artist you don't want to be. You're like, oh, OK, I see why I'm not doing that, because when you do that, you're just... Yeah, when when I see people who are just going into these, you can tell when artists are doing art for the gram.
00:36:31
Speaker
And i I think that drives me nuts. And I think when I, and maybe because that that drives me nuts because maybe it's something I kind of see in myself. Like I i relate to that impulse so much. So I think that's ah probably why it annoys me so much. There's that sense that, oh, you know, there but for the grace of God or crap, am i actually doing that? You know, that's that feeling. um I think that's probably the heart of the matter. Yeah.
00:36:57
Speaker
yeah And ah like, so when when you're working through that and recognizing that in yourself, how best do you just kind of shield that and get back to what it is you do best?
00:37:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think maybe I had to do this in the book. I i feel like ah when you're actually enjoying yourself, that's the best way um to really, to go beyond those feelings. Like when you and you kind of remember like, oh yeah, this is this is a fun activity. this is ah you know This isn't something I have to do. This is something I get to do.
00:37:31
Speaker
um I think once you once you ah figure that part out, I think that's,
00:37:43
Speaker
That's really, weirdly revolutionary. um like I realized, I forget if I wrote this anywhere, um like the difference between like a like a warm-up drawing and like a sketchbook drawing. like Warm-up drawings, kind of ah like I force myself to do them because it makes me remember, like oh, I like drawing.
00:38:00
Speaker
you know i'm i'm just ah This is why I'm doing this in the first place. um But the sketchbook drawings are more like, I'm trying to get that shape right, or I'm trying to get this this thing right. Yeah, I think ah the importance of of that is really, you know, that that's but that's up there for me.
00:38:16
Speaker
What are the the mixture of analog tools and digital tools that you have at your disposal to format things correctly um for submission for wherever you decide to submit, be it the New Yorker or elsewhere?
00:38:29
Speaker
So, yeah, what are what are those things at your disposal that you that you most rely on? I mostly just kind of use, I'm very analog analog. I use like regular pencils and dip pens and ink brushes and all that stuff. yeah I clean everything up in Photoshop ah generally, but um and sometimes work in there to collage some elements.
00:38:49
Speaker
But i I haven't really gotten the ah a hand on ah like pen tools, though. I i really wish I i could because ah everybody tells me they're much faster. um but yeah And are those like writing like drawing on a screen basically? yeah yeah like yeah Yeah, like using an Apple pen ah pen on a Procreate software. um Yeah, so far I don't know. I think ah maybe when the technology gets to the point where like it's not like you're drawing on a smooth surface because that really throws me off. I need, like I guess, the grit of of real paper.
00:39:23
Speaker
No, so I mostly, yeah I think i'm I'm just like kind of a analog and Photoshop girl, unfortunately. yeah, I was thinking, it's it's good back to your earlier question, like ah like I think artists are kind of an advantage compared to writers.
00:39:39
Speaker
um Because we can we have like a warm-up drawing, but there's not really an equivalent for writing. Is there, I guess you can journal. But I always love getting a sense of ah sort of the routines and rituals by which we, know, warm up the engine to get to a point. You have warm-up drawings.
00:39:54
Speaker
But like some of the things that that are kind of idiosyncratic and individual to you as you like to, you know, warm up the engine and get ready for, you know, a day ah a day of work.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah. Um, no, it's, it's so weird to me when folks like are really, um, like diligent about routines and I wish I could be like that. I, I, I mean, my morning routine is drinking coffee and reading my phone. It's, it's really, you know, it's, uh, I mean, eventually, you know, I, I do the stuff, you know, I'll get up and do things I should be, but yeah, it's, it's a very, um,
00:40:29
Speaker
It's like, you know, your example of what you do not want to do, we probably should not be doing in the morning. um Spending too long in bed, reading like various sub stacks. um ah But yeah, I think, um yeah, I'm hesitant to call what I do rituals. I think it's just like, i would say more like good habits, I guess. Good habits that I try to do more of. But yeah, I don't have like a set schedule necessarily. i'm i'm very...
00:40:58
Speaker
Yeah, I don't I like that. I have like a, you know, a list of like maybe five things I want to do every single day, but I've been really bad at doing them all at like set times, like even with the Sam Harris meditation thing I did, like, I don't like I don't do that necessarily in the morning. I do that, like, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the afternoon.
00:41:15
Speaker
Yeah. Drawings the same way or yeah, my Duolingo lesson. You know, it's like I cannot get into like a you know, you wake up and then you do these things. i better I guess just not how I'm wired, but I think for other folks, yeah, that they need that sort of schedule.
00:41:29
Speaker
so I know. Yeah. It's kind of like the routine porn of it all. Like so many people are like, yeah, I just want to know how people do the work. It's like sometimes it's dude, it's fucking messy. it's Yeah. Yeah. i you and I like that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:43
Speaker
And it's a great way to distract yourself from actually doing, doing work that matters or like getting into the flow. It's like, let me try that person's routine. I know this was like, especially popular probably 10 years ago. Yeah. It's just like, Oh, maybe if I lock into this perfect morning routine, I'm going to just like optimize myself for the time it's like oh god do we must we optimize and and commodify every single minute of our day it drives me that drives me insane Yeah, and I think there's definitely like, a I mean, its it's bad when you do it in the in the way where like, you feel like if you miss a day, like, oh, you know, I'm fucked. I i can't, ah you know, and I ruined the routine. You know, you have to be like, well, no, I do it more days than I don't. It's not like I have to do it this day or else something bad happens.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah. Something bad won't happen. Yeah, exactly. And well, in earlier conversation, too, you were talking about, you know, rejection and wrestling with that, which is just the natural order of things.
00:42:41
Speaker
And you give yourself 24 hours and to wrestle with that. But ah how do you, you know, metabolize it so you take it so you take it you know forward and not get too saddled by, you know, that inevitable rejection that we all face?
00:42:56
Speaker
Hmm. I wish I was ejected more, because that meant I was submitting more stuff. um I don't So I try to that attitude. ah I mean, i think sometimes you know there's the idea like, oh, if this guy is getting it, then I should be getting it.
00:43:10
Speaker
I don't know. I think i'm I'm reassured that even though I have yeah you know that it is a natural state of things and acceptance is more rare than it should be, that I'm going to keep doing this stuff anyway.
00:43:23
Speaker
um So I feel like that but really helps. Yeah, and I don't know. I think, I guess, and the more it happens, you get more zen about these sorts of things too. Like, okay, I'm going to get the next one or I'll give another, you know.
00:43:37
Speaker
um and It means you're like you're on the field and you're playing the game to like it to me. It's it's kind of right. Oh, this is what we do when we're doing the work. It's like it's part of it's like, OK, this this is in a way it's validating because you're just be like, you know, what this is what a pro does. We you know, we put it out there.
00:43:53
Speaker
It's got a lot. It's going to get rejected. 20 percent might get accepted, but that's like the batting average of it all. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. it's It feels more professional to to not make a big deal out of it. Yeah. Like if you're, yeah, because if you do, then it's like, okay, well, you're, you're oh then what happens? You know, you're just going to feel shitty and and not do anything else. I mean, you just keep going.
00:44:15
Speaker
Exactly. How have you handled the rejection of a cartoon that you're like, this thing's a home run? Like it cracked you up and you're like, this is so good. And then ah they're like, nah, you know, we're going to pass on this. You're like, how have you handled that?
00:44:29
Speaker
Hmm. Let's see. i Because there's a couple examples. Because ah it's different for each cartoon. like There's one that didn't get picked up, so I just put on my Instagram, made a sub stack about it. you know Easy enough.
00:44:41
Speaker
yeah um And then um some when and another one that I'm still like kind of shopping around, like that one's like, OK. Maybe I should try a fourth version because this one I've been like kind of hitting and hitting and I'm like, I'm not getting it right. I'm not getting it right. How am I going to make this say exactly what I wanted to say and have somebody pick it up?
00:44:56
Speaker
So I don't think it's like a one size fits all. I think sometimes, you know, you know, sometimes it's just like, all right, guess this is my own thing now. And sometimes it's like, nine I'm going to, I'm going to keep poking out this, this one. i feel like there's someone here that I need to.
00:45:11
Speaker
I need other people to see it, but I don't just want to have it be like my own Instagram thing. But, you know, eventually maybe it will be. that That'll be ah its final resting place. Who knows?
00:45:22
Speaker
the The New Yorker, is it's a hard door to open and and certainly a hard place to break into. How did you break in? Well, let's see. So...
00:45:33
Speaker
so
00:45:35
Speaker
I ah had like enough cartoons where I kind of had like a little you know stuff I could show an editor. And then I was very fortunate because um like a friend of a friend ah ah offered to like take me to like their Tuesday New Yorker cartoon meetings where you can go and ah you know meet the editor and look have her look at your stuff.
00:45:56
Speaker
um And then ah so so I did go up there. um guess that was, what, 2018?
00:46:04
Speaker
And all my cartoons were like, because basically what the New Yorker cartoons do is they like so they show you, um ah they show the editor ah photocopies of like, you know, sketches. And I had like an actual portfolio and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. i'll send I'll bring something crappier next time. I didn't know.
00:46:20
Speaker
and um And none of them were like the right fit for the New Yorker, but the the really lovely cartoon editor was like, well, you know, keep submitting. Here's my card. um So I did. And eventually, yeah, I got an acceptance.
00:46:34
Speaker
That to me really speaks to community and how important it is to kind of foster that that community. like How important is that just in in your um just in your trade, that you know this idea of yeah of supporting each other in that regard, of community to help you know level level yourself up but level up others?
00:46:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
Community and Connections in Publishing
00:46:56
Speaker
No, it's so like it really people told me about this before. But yeah, like when you publish a book, like you don't necessarily make any money, but you do make friends. And that's actually the the best part about it. Like you do, you know, find other creators.
00:47:12
Speaker
It really is the friends you make along the way. um it's It's awesome. Like that's, that's when I've been happiest where I'm like talking to like, like-minded artists and I'm like, oh man, I'm, I'm part of this club now and you guys are awesome. And we can all, you know, we're speaking the same language that only we understand. It's great.
00:47:27
Speaker
But it's also like this, don't know. It doesn't feel clicky. It just feels like fun and, really good natured maybe it is clicky and I just don't realize it because I'm on the inside hopefully it's not yeah 100% it's it's funny I have a and niece who's about to graduate high school and going to college and like I'm gonna write in her card and be like basically grades don't matter it's like the relationships and like you know and the connections you make along the way because no one no one's gonna look at your fucking transcript unless you're gonna be a doctor or something like By all means, get good grades if you're going to be a doctor.
00:48:04
Speaker
yeah But other than that, it's like anything that's ever happened to me, it's because of based with this show I they put in touch in with a lot of people. And then I'm able to recommend people to be like, oh, this sounds like a good fit for for you and you should do this. Or, oh, I know that person. You guys should talk. You guys should hang out. in Here's your emails.
00:48:24
Speaker
Go be be best friends now. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like that's kind of fun to be a node and a connector. And, know, that's just through age and experience. But like that's where the juice is, you know, if you can get there. And then, yeah, the rising tide thing.
00:48:40
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. know, being a connector feels amazing if you can be one. Yeah. but And yeah, and your first job is going to be like, because, you know, the guy you took a freshman year Photoshop class with, at least my opinion. yeah yeah You know, that that's how I got my first job. It's a yeah, but that's how it works. Yeah.
00:48:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, very nice. Well, Dana, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, as as you I think you know, I love asking the guests for a recommendation of some kind, just like anything you're excited about that you want to share with the listeners. So extend that you. Okay.
00:49:11
Speaker
So let's see. I was thinking of all the substacks I read. um My favorite one is ah this guy called Jeff Maurer, who's like a former writer for last week tonight. um He writes a substack called I Might Be Wrong.
00:49:23
Speaker
And that's, that's like about politics, but it's really funny and really, I don't know, really insightful. I love ah um getting that in my inbox every day. I think it counts as creative nonfiction. um yeah Let's see.
00:49:36
Speaker
in terms of books, the last great fiction book I read was ah Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton. Highly recommend that. Let's see. And then ah Netflix wise, I just finished, oh God, what was it called? ah Four Seasons, which is like a big hug in a TV show.
00:49:53
Speaker
Oh, cool. Yeah. Well, it's, it's such a great book. I, I, I loved it. And, uh, yeah, it was so fun. Like I just, I love your cartooning and your style and, and how you go about it and just the, how, you know, witty and snappy the economy with which you write a panel and a joke is, is a particularly masterful. And I, and, and so this book was a real treatise on, on that. It was just a, really a joy to read.
00:50:22
Speaker
Oh, I'm so glad you liked it. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. well Well, Dana, thank you so much for carving out time to do this and ah to talk talk shop and how you go about ah cartooning and ah being a creative person now. So just thank you so much for the time and for carving out time to come on the show.
00:50:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah. This was so fun. Thanks for having me.
00:50:45
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks to Dana for coming on the show. We recorded this a couple months ago. Really cool. She sent me a little piece of art and some stickers.
00:50:59
Speaker
And if you know me, you know I love love me some stickers. Great stuff. Make sure you're checking her out. Her work in The New Yorker. Picking up maybe a copy of the Skip to the Fun Parts book.
00:51:14
Speaker
And subscribe to our sub stack. And pitch club. ah For a couple days, there was a foul smell coming from what we thought was our pipes. And so we're Googling online. Is like a P-trap things? Or is it like a broken vent something or other? i don't know.
00:51:33
Speaker
Thought it was a P-trap issue, whatever. Smelled like rot, sewage. It was in our main bathroom, but it was also coming, it was in our garage too, which is confusing.
00:51:46
Speaker
So this morning, call the plumber. They immediately ask where the crawl space is in the house. And I tell them, it's in the closet in my studio, which has all my live recording gear and book boxes in and Nostalgia boxes. It's going to take me like 10 minutes to get this shit out. So I um start on unpacking, clearing out this closet.
00:52:10
Speaker
And one of the guys, he starts donning a fucking hazmat suit. He's got the mask and everything. Head to toe. Now, the crawl space has really earned its name. Like, the height down there can't be more than three feet or so.
00:52:25
Speaker
So the poor guy had the army crawl down there, and he's down there for a good 20 minutes, maybe longer. Dogs are growing ape shit. I'm just jacking them full of peanut butter.
00:52:36
Speaker
Lick mats, Kongs of frozen peanut butter. like, here, shove this in your fucking mouth, Lachlan. ah When Ray, one of the plumbers, surfaces, he's got a garbage bag that had what turned out to be two dead nutrias in it.
00:52:55
Speaker
And the stench was a match. We had two mutant rats. who had somehow burrowed into our crawlspace. And then they started kicking the shit out of each other and eventually died and then decomposed below the areas where the stenches were strongest.
00:53:11
Speaker
Glad we found the problem because it was bad. I woke up at 1.30 last night. Not that I need any help waking up at 1.30. What with the book panics and all the worrying that I'm going to get scooped on my next book and wondering why I keep procrastinating, almost as if I'm inviting getting scooped.
Dead Nutrias and Household Humor
00:53:30
Speaker
Stench was brutal. Opened all the windows, vented the place, melted one of those scented wax things, flushing the place out. Have you ever seen Nutrias?
00:53:42
Speaker
They're like a rat-beaver hybrid. Nasty fuckers. But at least the problem for now is solved. Now I might need to get an exterminator in there to find out where they got in to prevent them and rats from getting into that crawl space and fucking kicking the shit out of each other and dying down there all over again.
00:54:04
Speaker
But this is a parting shot about Spin Ray. Now, maybe I'm totally making this up, but I feel like I heard it somewhere where baseball pitchers, they... They need to show that their pitch has a certain spin rate, which is to say the speed of its revolutions from the moment it leaves his hand to the time it hits the plate.
00:54:24
Speaker
Or the catcher's mitt, whatever. Elite pitchers have more spin, and more spin means nasty junk.
00:54:32
Speaker
And from what I understand, this is a metric that can be picked up fairly early, maybe even forecast, I don't know. ah Might even be somewhat genetic, probably is mainly genetic.
00:54:42
Speaker
Which is to say, maybe even when you're a kid or teenager, which is still a kid, ah coach or a scout might evaluate your sprint rate and say right on the spot that you have no shot at making the pros or even a decent college roster.
Baseball and the Art of Writing
00:54:56
Speaker
Should that kid just give up? and I thought about this as it relates to writing. Some people have greater junk and good spin rate. They spit it out and have something extra that mortals like me yeah don't have won't ever have.
00:55:13
Speaker
Does that mean I should give up? yeah What's the goal here?
00:55:17
Speaker
There was a moment in my baseball career that it seemed pointless. I was no longer going to advance to the next level, and it seemed futile. Like, why even play this damn game? I had it all wrong for so long.
00:55:29
Speaker
It's why it was almost unilaterally never fun for me. For even as far as I made it, which is farther than 90% of baseball players in the country ever make it.
00:55:42
Speaker
I'm making that number up, but it's probably pretty accurate. If my goal was merely fun, then it would have been far more satisfying. That doesn't mean you eschew the necessary grind of being in the cages and taking reps, but it it should be fun.
00:55:59
Speaker
The people who tend to go far in this in these games, yeah they're they're having fun sometimes. Same is true for writing. Just because we're not going to be George Saunders or Susan Orlean, John Jeremiah Sullivan or Melissa Fibos.
00:56:16
Speaker
Does that mean we give up? yeah know Only if your metric is this hedonic treadmill of publication status. Only if you're playing the game of who can get the highest profile podcast appearance and get the best book contract or win this award.
00:56:31
Speaker
then yes, give up. It's a horrible way to create if that's how you measure success in this subjective racket we're in. But if you love spinning yarns and talking to people and platforming people, if the act of creation is fun and buoyant in this world that aims to muzzle you, then that's the win. As long as it is fun and nourishing and you take risks and earn little and big wins and whether the incalculable losses...
00:57:02
Speaker
then don't let these metrics of spin rate metaphor keep you from trotting along your path. I'll keep mixing metaphors here, mainly because it's something I need to hear.
00:57:13
Speaker
Yeah, look at the starting line for any marathon, road race for that matter, but let's just say marathon. 99.9% can't win that race. They show up anyway because for the vast majority, the only race that matters at all is the race within, of challenging our past selves, of bettering our past selves.
00:57:36
Speaker
Someone finishing the marathon in six hours, for the most part, is just as happy as the person finishing it in two and a half. Because winning was never the goal. It was testing the boundaries we so often put on ourselves.
00:57:51
Speaker
That's what I want to see from your writing, your books, certainly my own. And as you know, I'm not much of a rah-rah guy, but for some reason I felt I needed to riff on this. It's not always about spin rate and being given a thunderbolt for an arm at birth.
00:58:08
Speaker
It's about that daily grind. It's about lifting others up. It's about building your platform so you can better platform others.
00:58:20
Speaker
So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see