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Episode 475: For Dane Huckelbridge, Spacing Out is Part of the Process
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"If you don't cultivate other interests or travel or spend time with friends, this and that, you don't have anything to write about," says Dane Huckelbridge, author of Queen of All Mayhem (William Morrow).
Dane returns to the show to talk about his latest book, but also a smattering of other juicy writer topics such as:
- Procrastination
- Writing around the uncertainty
- Not having much of a routine
- Spacing out
- Niche hobbies
- And staying motivated
Dane can be found at danehuckelbridge.com and on IG @huckelbridge.
This episodes opens with an audio excerpt of The Front Runner, read by Roger Wayne.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Book Promotion & Platform Importance
00:00:00
Speaker
All right, hope you're ready for a double feature CNF Friday. Should I even keep promoting the front runner? It's out there. also have to remember that not everybody listens to every single podcast episode.
00:00:13
Speaker
There could be newbies with every podcast. Even though it's the 400th time I've spoken about it, it could be the first for someone else. Buy it from your favorite bookstore and leave ratings and reviews wherever you post, Amazon, Goodreads,
00:00:27
Speaker
I'm not going to read them because I don't want to go insane, but they do help. If you ever want to pay me for the show and for what I do, buying the book and subscribing to the two news newsletters is key.
00:00:39
Speaker
Platform is currency. A little more about that later. Oh, but hold on a second.
Steve Prefontaine's Racing Ambitions
00:00:44
Speaker
You want to hear an audio excerpt from the front runner read by Roger Wayne? Mr. Wayne.
00:00:53
Speaker
Here you go. Steve had done something no other runner had done. which gave him a warm feeling. With his singlet untucked and eventually cast off altogether and barefoot, Steve jogged a victory lap around the stadium.
00:01:09
Speaker
The scoreboard listed the top five three-mile results from the schools. MANH for Manhattan College, 5th. WST for Washington State, 4th.
00:01:22
Speaker
Back-to-back COLOs for Colorado, 3rd and second and atop the list, not O-R-E-G for Oregon, but pre-1305.3.
00:01:36
Speaker
point three
00:01:39
Speaker
With Steve's outdoor college track and field career over, he would have one more redshirt semester in the fall of 1973 at Oregon to run cross-country. He had to consider what post-collegiate running looked like for him.
00:01:53
Speaker
He would remain an amateur. but he had the wherewithal to know he was an attraction and that he had leverage. With the right degree of savvy or redirecting the brashness he had historically reserved for his rivals toward the amateur athletic union, he was testing the limits of amateur racing as it was currently structured.
00:02:13
Speaker
He planned on breaking new trail, which was something athletes did not do back then. Everyone else merely got in line and dealt with the necessary evil that was the amateur system.
00:02:24
Speaker
A week after NCAA championships, on June 16, 1973, after having initially balked at going to Bakersfield for the three-day AAU championships, Steve came within.4 seconds of breaking the American three-mile record in a time of 12.53.4. He was playing a game of chicken with the AAU.
00:02:47
Speaker
Steve thought its draconian authority over where and when an athlete could run was deeply un-American, this from an institution that purportedly gave the athlete full freedom to pick and choose.
00:02:59
Speaker
Steve had every intention of running in Europe under his own banner, on his own time and dime, not the AAUs, the Declaration of Independence. I've run five years for my country on a team.
00:03:12
Speaker
Now I want to run for me. Still, by running in the AAU championships, Steve was throwing the AAU a bone. In return, Steve hoped for a travel permit from the AAU.
00:03:25
Speaker
He wanted to travel on his own schedule and run against those he deemed worthy, even make some money under the table. Steve began to realize that he and his peers had more power than they realized.
00:03:37
Speaker
If the athletes don't take the initiative in this, who will? We know the AAU and the American Olympic Committee won't. I hate to sound critical, But to me, the AAU is just a bunch of old men taking medication so they can stay alive for another four years to hassle us.
00:03:53
Speaker
Right now, I'm being hassled. I don't need it, really. The real question would be if Steve would race in the restoration meet at Hayward Field, scheduled for June 20, 1973, another exhibition meet, just like the Twilight Meats, to raise money for renovations.
00:04:11
Speaker
The West Stands were dilapidated and held together with spit and prayer. Bowerman was still spearheading the fundraising, and he had a headliner in Steve that could draw people out, the proceeds going into the Hayward Field coffers.
00:04:25
Speaker
Steve and 1972 800-meter gold medalist Dave Waddle were supposed to leave for Europe on June 19. While in Bakersfield, Steve hatched an idea.
00:04:37
Speaker
ah Steve knew Dave Waddle was going to Europe with him. Hey, why don't you just come up to Eugene in a couple of days? They're trying to raise money to restore the stadium. We'll go after the world record in the mile.
00:04:48
Speaker
I'll bring you through in 256 for three quarters. Waddle had an apocalyptic kick. It was how he won his gold medal in Munich. Steve Prefontaine willing to be a rabbit?
00:05:00
Speaker
Why not? Steve knew Waddle was the superior miler, and Steve figured that the pair of them could team up for a special headlining event. Here, Steve was willing to sacrifice himself.
00:05:12
Speaker
He couldn't expect to win, but he knew his star power combined with Waddle's kick might break Jim Ryan's long-standing world record and raise a lot of money for Hayward Field. The pair were stark opposites.
00:05:26
Speaker
Waddle was tall, pale as a sheet, ran with a golf cap. He raced no longer than the mile and saved his energy for the end. He was soft-spoken, even bashful.
00:05:38
Speaker
Steve was shorter and would never cover that glorious mane of hair. He led from the front, mutton chops and dark mustache. Steve was also soft-spoken, but he carried a heavy fist.
00:05:51
Speaker
Waddle was more shy and didn't socialize much. Though Steve appreciated the quieter moments, he was just as comfortable being the center of attention. Waddle never drank. Steve made a sport of it.
00:06:03
Speaker
Dave Waddle was the NCAA
Post-Race Reflections & Community Engagement
00:06:05
Speaker
mile champion, but he had never run faster than.357. Steve, to his credit, had run.355 earlier in the year in blustery conditions. We'll call it the Hayward magic.
00:06:18
Speaker
ah Deep down, Waddle knew he needed a better mile time if he was going to tell people the mile and not the 800 meters was his best event. Waddle had always wanted to run against Steve, and if that were to happen, Steve would have to drop down and set the pace.
00:06:33
Speaker
I know his plan. He'll try to take me out and break me early, Waddle said. How close they got to that world record depended on Steve. He would sell out for Waddle, for Hayward Field.
00:06:46
Speaker
The day could not have been better on the eve of summer, balmy and windless. Wearing a Nike track and field t-shirt and Nike trainers, Steve checked in with a clerk shortly before his event was set to go.
00:07:00
Speaker
The stands were flush with 12,000 people. Waddle, who had just been commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Air Force Reserves, had been tabbed to run in the Air Force colors instead of his usual Bowling Green University kit.
00:07:14
Speaker
While in Eugene, a captain for the Air Force, gave Waddle his uniform. Waddle wanted to focus on the race, and he wasn't sure if he was supposed to be saluting or calling him sir or not.
00:07:26
Speaker
Eventually, and unceremoniously, Waddle slipped away to warm up. The plan was simple. Stay with Steve. Steve said he was going to pull them through in 2.56. His gift to Waddle.
00:07:40
Speaker
Waddle thought, praise he's the best rabbit you can have. Except he's the type of rabbit who usually wins. Waddle was feeling good. He had slept 10 hours the night before and logged an easy two-mile morning run.
00:07:54
Speaker
As race time neared, he jogged two and a half miles as the stands swelled to the brim, hip to hip. Last time Waddle raced at Hayward Field was the Olympic trials a year before.
00:08:06
Speaker
After he tied the world record in winning the 800 meters, he went across the street to McDonald's and treated himself to a Big Mac meal. He wasn't much for ceremony or theatrics, and when he was called to the starting line for the super mile, the people screamed and Waddle began to tingle.
00:08:23
Speaker
Then he heard the screams for Steve. Whoa. The race went off, and just like Steve told Waddle, he paced him through three-quarters of a mile in 2.56, Steve hugging the inside lane, and Waddle coasting to the outside of Steve's right shoulder.
00:08:40
Speaker
Waddle had never gone faster than 3.01 for three-quarters. Steve's legs felt heavy, and at this point, he wanted to explode. He had run four three-mile races in 13.20 or below in ten days.
00:08:54
Speaker
The acceleration wasn't there. He had no snap. Waddle was told by his bowling green coach that his best races would come off a fast pace, and right there before him on a platter was about as fast as he'd ever experienced.
00:09:08
Speaker
Steve put the world record in Waddle's sights. All Waddle had to do was take it. Steve rushed by the east stands with 220 yards to go. Fans knew the book on Waddle, and right on cue, Waddle surged 10 yards clear of Steve.
00:09:24
Speaker
there would be no catching Waddle, but Steve chased after him not only to keep up with the clock, but to give his people in the rickety west stands reason to cheer. Maybe the roar would push Waddle past the point of reason, past Ryan.
00:09:38
Speaker
By the time Waddle struck the tape, the time was 3.53.3, the third fastest mile ever. Waddle winced at the finish. Steve finished a few yards behind Waddle and gave his people all that remained, what would be his career best mile, 3.54.6. A little girl screamed, That's okay, Pri. Don't worry about it.
00:10:03
Speaker
Years later, Waddle looked back at this race with a rare pang of regret. So much of his mindset was geared toward winning the race, not the clock. Time was secondary.
00:10:15
Speaker
He never wanted to sell out too soon. Instead of going for it and laying it all out on the track and say, hey, you know, if I can run a 55-second last lap, I can get a world record, I was holding back because I was afraid of tightening up down the homestretch.
00:10:31
Speaker
Steve, being the strong runner he was, I thought he could beat me. I regret that, truthfully. I regret that he brought me through such a great race and a great time, and I didn't lay it all out there on the track.
00:10:44
Speaker
That's a weakness I had. Waddle also didn't want to like who he was running against. The better to flog them. He wanted to run angry. And after the race, with the fans still clapping and cheering, Waddle began his victory lap.
00:11:01
Speaker
Steve jogged up beside Waddle and grabbed his arm and raised them together above their heads. Waddle thought, what are you doing running with me? This is my victory lap. How stingy, Waddle remembered.
00:11:13
Speaker
How stingy of me. Steve was endorsing me to the fans at Hayward Field. He was also saying, you did that because of me. And he was absolutely right.
00:11:25
Speaker
Ernie Cunliffe, who was the coach for the Air Force working with Waddle, found Steve and told him, it was a best of life for seven other guys in the race and you made it possible.
00:11:37
Speaker
You set it up for them. Steve often made it possible for others to level up. His gift to them. The few who beat him also ran out of their shoes.
00:11:49
Speaker
Waddle bettered his best time by nearly four full seconds to win this night, the fastest mile ever run at Hayward Field, this in the Temple of Milers. Waddle recalled, If he had not brought me through in 256, there's no way I could have run that fast.
00:12:07
Speaker
It was a valuable lesson for me to learn back then. I did reflect on it afterwards, thinking, no one's on an island. You have a family. You have coaches. You have teammates. You have competitors.
00:12:19
Speaker
All that together is what makes runners achieve their goals. Steve helped me learn that lesson. I was always grateful for that. The restoration meet was a beautiful illustration of Steve's evolution as a person.
00:12:33
Speaker
He started to see his rivals as peers, even if it meant falling on a sword to lift others up. all to give back to his community, these people, those stands.
00:12:46
Speaker
After the race, Steve was swarmed by children seeking autographs. He signed them attentively. One of Steve's older fans brandished a bottle of champagne in a paper bag.
00:12:57
Speaker
The fan offered Steve the bag, and Steve, appreciatively, took a swig.
00:13:11
Speaker
That was nice, right? You know, that's an excerpt that I read. I think I'm on the level. I think I'm as good. think I got the voice too, man.
00:13:23
Speaker
I mean, I'm not throwing shade and Mr. Wayne, but I am saying I got chops.
Dane Huckelbridge on 'Queen of All Mayhem'
00:13:30
Speaker
Okay. This is the creative nonfiction podcast, a show where I speak to tell us their true tales about the true tales. They tell I'm Brendan Amara, the creep who won't stop talking to you. Okay.
00:13:39
Speaker
Today we have Dane Hucklebridge. He returns to the show to talk about queen of all mayhem, the blood soaked and mysterious death of Bellstar, the most dangerous woman in the West.
00:13:51
Speaker
It's published by William Morrow. Dane's an interesting guy. Spends his life going between fiction and nonfiction. His last appearance on the show dealt with No Beast So Fierce, about a man-eating tiger.
00:14:05
Speaker
And his latest is part Western, part murder mystery, part genealogy. He's the author of the novel Castle of Water. And his work has appeared in Tin House, Lit Hub, The Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine, and The New Republic.
00:14:20
Speaker
All right, but first, ah a little bit of my usual housekeeping. Juiced up. Show notes are at brendanomero.com. There you can find links to hot blogs, tasteful nudes, and forms to sign up for the flagship Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter and the hottest thing since Bruce Springsteen's ass in tight jeans.
00:14:39
Speaker
Pitch Club. where I have a journalist audio annotate a pitch that earned publication. If you're a working journalist, you'll want to subscribe. If you're a journalism teacher, you'll want your students subscribing.
00:14:51
Speaker
Forever free. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. And if you want to support the show and its infrastructure and my ego, you can also go to patreon.com slash cnfpod. You get face-to-face time with me to talk some things out, depending on your tier.
00:15:06
Speaker
It's not very organized, but it's something. So Dane can be found at danehucklebridge.com and on Instagram at Hucklebridge. In this pod, we talk about procrastination, writing around uncertainty, not having much of a routine, spacing out niche hobbies, and staying motivated.
00:15:25
Speaker
Good, good stuff. Is that it for now? a little bit longer intro because of that audio excerpt, but hey, you know, it's something.
00:15:36
Speaker
It was entertaining, wasn't it? Stay tuned for a parting shot about reverting to a little kid, but for now, cue up the montage. Producer Kevin. of
00:15:53
Speaker
course, you know, I mean, deadlines help. and And then sort of sit back from the sock-a-tube. If you want tenacity, get the fuck off social media. Don't be a dick. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:16:17
Speaker
You know, how are, how do you handle the time between books when you're looking to start something new and, and that, and that period where maybe some ideas hit the wall and stick some slide down the wall and you're like, God damn, I gotta, I gotta move on to something else.
00:16:33
Speaker
That's a great question because theoretically, you know in theory, i do – well, I mean it's not theoretical. I do write fiction and nonfiction both. So between nonfiction books, I like to work on novels. I like to work on fiction.
00:16:47
Speaker
And I'm usually pretty good about that. But ah yeah I'll be honest. like sometimes Sometimes you just need a break. Sometimes especially if you've got – ah you know, hurrying a little bit, you got a deadline to turn it into your editor, this and that. So I've, I try to be responsible and always have something to work on. But I've definitely had some had some stretches where my brain was frazzled. And I just took a few months off and you know, did other things. I think that's healthy too, because if you don't cultivate other interests or travel or spend time with friends, this and that, you don't have anything to write about. You know, that's where so much comes from real world experience. And you never know, you might be out with friends and one of them might mention an interesting story and, you know, suddenly, boom, that's a, that's your next book idea. you might be at a family reunion and someone tells a,
00:17:34
Speaker
you know, tells an interesting tale and that, you know, story, you know, an idea comes out of that. So I think it's good to have balance, but I do try to keep busy ideally, but yeah, sometimes it takes a lot of effort. I i love to procrastinate. I'm really, it's just, I have this feeling sometimes time like I have to sit and do nothing for several hours just to, you know, to work for, to work for a couple hours. So I feel bad about that, but i I do work pretty hard when I, when I do sit down and work, I i really concentrate and really get a lot done.
00:18:04
Speaker
So I guess that's, you know, it's sort of I need these charging up periods before I sit down and, you know, concentrate intently for a few hours. But ah so, yeah, I don't know. so that's Yeah, that's the answer.
Creativity & Life Experiences
00:18:15
Speaker
I try to have things to write on and to work on between. But I do I do take time off to do other cultivate other interests and also just have fun and, you know, living in Paris, enjoy the city, travel a little bit, all that good stuff.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah, the the procrastination thing is ah huge, I think, for anybody who's in the creative fields and is particularly ah viral in in the writing world, especially if you work from home, because there's always there's always a chore to do. There's always dishes to be done. And you're like, oh, that's a good way to not have to do the work, not have to make the phone calls you need to make.
00:18:47
Speaker
don't know, like, how does procrastination manifest for you? Oh, OK, well, this is this is kind of a funny, a funny story. But um during back during COVID, whatever, you know, and all these lockdowns, I was very responsible at the beginning. you know at the very beginning, I sat down, i wrote and I worked on a novel. You know, I was keeping busy.
00:19:06
Speaker
And then there was another big lockdown. And this time I was a little less motivated. And this time I think I read a lot and also watched and rewatched a lot of the kind of the great American series, you know, Breaking Bad or Sopranos or this and that.
00:19:19
Speaker
And then the third lockdown, though, I was done. I just didn't, you know, I was i didn't want to yeah i was i was frazzled, I was frustrated, i was i was going crazy because it was sort of like being under house arrest here in France.
00:19:31
Speaker
And so I got a mini pool table, a billiard table. And I decided there was a project. i was It was supposed to be kind of a children's. story It's exactly half the size of a regular pool table. But it was designed to be a child's toy. So it came, you know, with the quality wasn't great. The, you know, what do you call it? The table was a little uneven. the balls were cheap. It came with these really tacky cues.
00:19:53
Speaker
And so my project became to create like a, you know, hot dog. class mini billiard lounge and i bought this big overhead lamp does a light would shine down on it i ordered some ah was aramith those are the fancy billiard balls i found managed to find some mini ones that that were exactly half size ordered some child's not like child size pro grade snooker cues from the uk that were great for you know and i did a bunch of woodwork on the bottom to try to stabilize the the bed and everything.
00:20:24
Speaker
And yeah, and that, that was, that became a great way to, to procrastinate. I spent many, many a night with a, with a cocktail listening to jazz or whatever, and and just shooting round after round of million of many billiards.
00:20:37
Speaker
So that was probably my most interesting way to procrastinate. Sometimes you know I'll goof around on my phone or watch stuff on you know on the Netflix or whatever. and Sometimes i'm I'm embarrassed to admit it, but just space out, which maybe it's good. I don't know. i think I think I kind of need it in a way. Like I need a lot of downtime to just kind of think about things or not think about anything. And like I said, space out.
00:21:03
Speaker
So I feel a little guilty about that, but I don't think I'm the only writer who does that. So maybe it's part of the process. I think you're right, Dane, in that a lot of that, that downtime, though, it's not technically at a notepad scribbling or at your keyboard writing it it like that downtime is part of the writing.
00:21:21
Speaker
I think so, too. Yeah. i I just don't think I could. Yeah. i Like I said, I kind of need the need that to to focus. And if I didn't, if I was very frazzled or running around all the time, I didn't have the downtime. i think, yeah, I think I couldn't do it. I think I really have to.
00:21:39
Speaker
I don't know. It's like in Ghostbusters when they're recharging their proton packs or whatever. It's kind of like zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom. It takes a while and then it shoots at a burst of whatever. It's kind of like that. find I do need...
00:21:53
Speaker
a fair amount of time, ideally. Although sometimes too, when I'm really, when I have no choice, you know, when I've got deadlines and a bunch of stuff due and whatever, you know, sometimes that, that forces me to, to do good work. So that's true too. But I think I couldn't sustain that over a long period of time. I think if I, if I was constantly, you know, constantly at it, I think, yeah, I think I'd burn out. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
00:22:19
Speaker
ah And speaking of ah deadlines and other things, like what what is some of our are some of the other writing or other projects that you have that might yeah be the smaller rocks that fit around the big rocks of your book projects?
00:22:33
Speaker
Oh, let's see. Well, i I do try to read recreationally, and that's something I feel guilty about, too, because i just I used to have so much more time and also so much more energy and less distraction to do it.
00:22:46
Speaker
you know, when I first started out when I was living in new York City, I read nonstop. you know And also, I remember i didn't study literature or anything like that in and university, in college, so I felt like i had a lot of catching up to do.
00:23:00
Speaker
And so i started so I started reading a lot. And I really, you know, I read a ton of books at that time. And these days also, I just i just have less free time. i feel like my my attention is pulled in different directions. But I do try to read. I try to read fiction.
00:23:15
Speaker
I try, I don't read as many nonfiction books, ironically, but I try, of a subscription to The New Yorker, which is pricey, the paper subscription is pricey when you live in but you live in Paris. I like, that's a good motivation. If I'm paying all this money for the subscription, I feel like, you know, I need to read some of it. So i always try to read at least one or two articles from that, from every issue, but those things pile up quick too. Before I know that I've got a New Yorker stack, you know, two feet high.
00:23:41
Speaker
But yeah, try to do that. So reading is important. Again, I don't do quite as much as I'd like to, but that was one of my New Year's resolutions. So I've been trying to do that. i think I think music is important. I think music is sort of a yeah, it's part of life. It's sort of ah you know it spiritually restorative or something like that. So I think i think listening to music, I like to, what um sometimes when I'm sort of spacing out, I like to have music in the background.
00:24:06
Speaker
And ah for spacing out, I like probably classical music or jazz music more, but I'm also a ah big fan of kind of classic rock and whatnot. I think socializing is is just really important because like I said before, you know, with your friends kind of interacting with people, so many good ideas just come unexpectedly and you never know where they're going to come from or what kind of story you're going to hear.
00:24:29
Speaker
So i think I think that's important. And I think it's also kind of it's kind of fun to have like weird niche hobbies. like Because sometimes like inspiration comes from that too, or sometimes an idea. like I mentioned my my mini billiard table. i also I don't have a huge collection, but I got into collecting vintage men's fragrances that no longer exist.
00:24:52
Speaker
And it all started. And I'm not even a guy. I don't wear cologne. not a cologne guy. i don't even wear cologne that much. but i When I was a kid, I remember on special occasions, my dad would wear Brut Cologne. yeah And then it was like that Brut by Fabergé. And they don't really make it anymore. I think there's something you can get, but it's not the same the same stuff.
00:25:12
Speaker
And I remember it was always like a very nostalgic smell. And I was curious. It occurred to me oh, on eBay, maybe I could find... find some like old vintage brute from the eighties or nineties. And I did find some, and that I just thought that was really neat because smell is so linked to the past and it's something that's usually ephemeral. You know, the idea of preserving smells is just, it's something you don't usually think about, you know? Yeah.
00:25:35
Speaker
and And something about that got me interested. And I have like this kind of small, small collection of vintage colognes, most of which don't exist anymore. I think that's what, that's what I find intriguing. So I don't know, like weird little interests like that.
00:25:48
Speaker
And travel. Yeah, I think travel is great too. Especially, I love traveling around here in in Europe just because there's so many neat little regions. There's so many, there's so many interesting local cultures and traditions and whatnot. And the,
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, stories are just always always popping up, always always coming, ah yeah popping into my head. And a lot of a lot of the fiction I have written was really inspired by my but my time living here in Europe and just sort of the different interesting things and interesting people I've encountered.
00:26:16
Speaker
So those i'd say those would be my main my main kind of, you know, side rocks to the big rock of writing, I guess. Yeah. yeah It's so important to ah interface physically and in in person, if possible. You know, we kind we got sidelined with that with the pandemic and all.
00:26:35
Speaker
ah But i think of any good fortune I've ever had or any little nugget of yeah good fortune I've ever had has really come as a result of interfacing publicly with people, be it for career-wise or just socially. And had I just been at home with my computer just...
00:26:51
Speaker
trying to noodle around on the internet. I don't think any of those things might have come my way, but you never know what might befall you if you just like in public, because that's how, that's where, that's where the juice is out there. As hard as it might be for introverted people or shy people to do that, it's, that's where it is.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, i say I think that's critical. And there is this kind of cliche of writing being solitary. And a big component of it is. I mean, there is a big part of it. It's hard to avoid. I'm not one of those people who can go sit in a coffee shop or a cafe and, you know, and work. I've got to i I only like to really do, I get distracted too easy. You know, i have a short, shiny object passes. and you know, I'm looking for any excuse not to not to work. So I always work alone.
00:27:39
Speaker
So I do, you know, at my place. So I do spend a lot of time alone. So that that does make me, I think, crave interaction and going out and seeing new things to an extent.
00:27:51
Speaker
And so that – and also, like you said, I think it's just important both for you know networking in the sense of meeting people with shared interests, meeting people who work in the same field. you know sometimes Sometimes you meet people who are who are happy to help or you're happy to help too, which is always – it's always nice.
00:28:07
Speaker
And yeah, i think i think that is kind of where the magic happens. That's where you – you know That's kind of where you you fill up the well from from going up going out and gathering all these experiences. and then you and i don't know, maybe it's like picking grapes or something. you You go out and pick the grapes and then you bring them home and kind of press them into wine or or whatever, make it into make it into something. Yeah, I like that.
00:28:29
Speaker
you You just meet people, whether you're interacting with writers or something, too. And I think this comes with a little bit of being in the game for a long time. You might think that there's some degree of scarcity among stories, but I love nothing more than be like, oh, I know someone who has a certain interest.
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, this kind of interesting. Maybe I should do it. But, you know, it's more in their lane.
Writing Career Challenges & Persistence
00:28:49
Speaker
So I'm like, hey, have you heard of this? Like, you should do this. And I feel better like you do this story so I don't have to. ah yeah Yeah, sure. No, I've been there. I've definitely been there. Yeah, there was a time in my you know early early freelancing and ah you know probably 15 years ago or so where it was it was much more like competitive and jealous and bitter. be like, oh, this guy. had had How did he get that cover?
00:29:14
Speaker
I wouldn't have written it that way. And i was just like, this is bullshit. How did this guy get that story? and it's like it does It didn't burn clean for me, Dane. Yeah, no, I remember those days. And I think part of the reason, you know, you have those kind of feelings of, not that you're never, I mean, obviously it never goes away completely, but one of the big differences when you're, you know, when you're starting out is you have this idealized version of what it's like.
00:29:38
Speaker
being a writer, getting published and whatever. And not that it's not and not a great. i know i I love my job. I love what I do. But yeah, it's it's a hassle. It's a huge headache. It's new problems. And I always had this notion in my head that there'd come a moment where you know I'd be set.
00:29:54
Speaker
i'd be Everything would be on cruise control. I'd have agent stuff set up, editor stuff set up. you know public out did And then all like all sorts of unexpected things things happen. you know and I know what it's like to have...
00:30:07
Speaker
Editors and agents leave the business. I know what it's like to have imprints closed down. I know, you know, sometimes just bad stuff outside of publishing. You know, sometimes it's just ah like a bizarre news cycle and it kind of sucks up all the oxygen and nobody's thinking about what books are out, yeah you know?
00:30:23
Speaker
And so there's there's a certain element you can't control. And I think I'm definitely much, well, I'd say like, not that I don't, I still care and I still, you know, hope my stuff sells and does well and all these things like that.
00:30:35
Speaker
But I definitely don't take it as personally as as I did when I was younger. Because I know if you do, like it's it's not sustainable. you know you'll You'll drive yourself crazy if you're you know having an existential crisis every time you can't sell a book or you sell a book and it doesn't turn out the way you want or it comes out, it doesn't sell as well as you'd hoped. or You've got to live your life. Yeah.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah, it it can take a heavy toll. I think I, i like I said, when I was younger, I took a lot of the stuff much more seriously. And yeah, I remember going on, you know, long like depressions, long crises, whatever. I took it really personally, and which is also part of of youth, I think, which is kind of kind of nice too. you know, you're much more...
00:31:20
Speaker
and you tend to be a little more idealistic, a little more passionate about things. So, you know, I was i was definitely passionate. And then when things didn't work exactly as I wanted, I would i would take it very personally and I'd be crushed and this and that.
00:31:32
Speaker
But yeah, these these days i've I've been through enough ups and downs that, you know, like I said, not that i not that I don't care at all, but, you know, and I know from experience anytime things are going well to really enjoy it, but not get too comfortable because it's very likely things will...
00:31:49
Speaker
there'll be a downturn. And also when things are really not going well, not to, you know, not to throw in, throw in the towel and not to give up. Cause if you keep at it, things will eventually get better. And that's, that doesn't happen to me just once. I mean, this is, yeah these kinds of ups and downs have probably happened to me like five or six times over, over my career as a writer, or I, you know, different times I felt like giving up or you know, things just weren't going the way I wanted. And then, you know, and then there's, you know, kind of a little miracle of some kind or a little lucky break and suddenly you're, you know, you're back. Yeah.
00:32:21
Speaker
So, um, Yeah, hard to hard to say. Yeah, that's a good point. like I love hearing you say like there are those moments where you might have given up. And I've i've had many of those inflection points over the last 20 years where I'm like, maybe maybe this isn't and maybe I'm not cut out for this. And something like Godfather III pulled me back in as much as I tried to leave. And I don't think I would...
00:32:44
Speaker
be able to live with myself had I given up. And I think that's part of what kept me in. I think the podcast kept me on. It kept me in line where it's just I wanted to.
00:32:56
Speaker
I'm hooked on doing this show and I don't know what I would do without it. But I think without this, I probably would have gone into some other thing i've i've taken innumerable day jobs over the 20 years where i'm like oh maybe i could do this i worked in a wine cellar for a while i'm oh maybe i'm gonna be a wine guy and then i just couldn't live with myself not doing this interacting with writers and and trying to do narrative non-fiction so i it's just one of those deals where it's just yeah i don't think i would have been able to live with myself uh
00:33:29
Speaker
You know, sometimes sometimes external circumstances make you have to quit, you know, be it financially or family or whatever. But, you know, independent of that, it was like, yeah, I i just I need to see this through the end. because Otherwise, i don't know if I'd be able to live with myself.
00:33:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I definitely know that feeling. And i' I've been so frustrated at times over the last you know couple decades, I guess, that I definitely thought about it. But yeah, same thing. I just never, it was just kind of like an itch I had to scratch. I was i kept at it. and But that's also, what i like i was saying, I think it's important to have interests and a life and things you do outside of just writing and worrying about writing to to sort of help you out differently.
00:34:12
Speaker
you know, during those times when things maybe aren't going so good. Because if your whole if your whole life revolves just around just around writing and the act of writing and worrying about writing. And then if things, you know, if things, for one thing, I think it'll make your, you know, I think it'll make your writing a little thin because you have much to write about. You want to like the real, I mean, that's why people, you know, fiction or nonfiction, people want, you know, they want something that feels real, something that reflects life in some way that like offers a reflection on life.
00:34:43
Speaker
yeah And you've got to, you've got to live to have that, I think. But also just just for very practical reasons, yeah, when if things if you go through a period where things aren't going well in the writing or the publishing or whatever, yeah you can't just fall apart. You've got to have you know you got have other things to sustain you because you never know. like some sometimes Sometimes those downturns, they can last years or they can, you know, you might, maybe you you write a novel or try to pitch a nonfiction you've been working on for a couple of years.
00:35:12
Speaker
That doesn't work. And if you're really committed and you want to go back to square one and start over, you know it might be another few years before before you're trying again. So you got to, yeah, I just, i just that my experience anyway was just trying to devote my whole life to that was, ah it wasn't very productive. I don't think it made my writing better to devote my whole life to it. yeah And it was it just made me very like frustrated and sad a lot. Like it just wasn't like, there there weren't a lot of,
00:35:39
Speaker
There weren't a lot of upticks, you know, like you yeah if you if you want to write a love story, you got to you gotta to fall in love. If you want to write a good adventure story, authentically, you have to have some adventures. If you want to, you know, if you want to write about history or a place or a time, you know, you have to go out and experience it and and interact with it.
00:35:58
Speaker
Oh, for sure. and And when you're when you're setting down to to write when you have when you're like trying to remove those distractions and all the stuff that you when you're settling down and what do you like to have in in place via routines or rituals? So when you know you're going to have a day like, oh, yeah, today's a day I need kind of need to get a thousand words done or or more.
00:36:22
Speaker
I don't have anything strict, yeah kind of just when it when it feels right, you know, at a certain point, at a certain point, i feel good about what I've done. And I feel like, you know, like I've done a ah solid day's work.
00:36:36
Speaker
And, and yeah, and then i'm I'm starting to feel a little like, ah you know, I feel good about what I did. I'm feeling a little tired, not not really want to continue. And then, you know, and then I call it a day. And when when those days go well, it's a good feeling. Like, it's a great feeling knowing you did.
00:36:50
Speaker
You know, you you put in a day's work and you got a lot done and you can take a break. And then I find I don't feel guilty at all afterwards. I can really like really enjoy myself. Or, you know, if if I put in a whole week of work and the weekend comes, I'll say, oh, I'm just going to take, you know, take the weekend off and do fun and interesting stuff and can do it guilt free.
00:37:09
Speaker
But yeah, but and sometimes I feel very guilty when I know, you know, I've got something I need to be writing, need to be working on and I keep putting it off. And yeah, that's not fun either. That sort of feeling of of guilt and regret. It's very similar to, you know, when I was a kid not wanting to do homework on Sundays. You know, a Sunday would come around and I'd have homework to do for Monday. And I remember you couldn't, you'd put it off because you wanted to enjoy the day, but you couldn't enjoy the day anyway because you're kind of, you know, stewing on it and churning and dreading it, even though usually it's not that bad once you sit down and do it.
00:37:42
Speaker
And yeah, that's, I guess that's usually the, usually the case. I bet. Yeah. Rituals. I just have a desk in my room in my apartment and yeah, when it comes time, i just, I just sit and sit and do it. And I procrastinate for a while. I look for other stuff to do, but at a certain point it's kind it's just Geronimo. You got to dive in and do it.
00:38:04
Speaker
And, uh, It does help. One thing I've found with with nonfiction, though, that helps in terms of motivation, unlike fiction, is nonfiction, and but you and you you sell the proposal and then you have to write it.
00:38:17
Speaker
And so it's not like fiction where you have to write the whole thing and then try to sell it Which can be hard because, you know, the motivation is and you got to really dig deep for that motivation. But with nonfiction, you know, they've got a pub date when your book is going to come out.
00:38:32
Speaker
They've given you, you know, either half or one third of your advance up front and you're going to get the rest, you know, when it's done or when it comes out. And so that's that's a pretty good motivation. You know, that's I actually kind of appreciate that because i need that little kick in the pants sometimes where it's like, OK, they already paid me, so I got to do it. You know, I'm I've they've paid me for a service and I've got to render the service.
00:38:55
Speaker
But then on top of that, you're going to get the rest of the money when you
Belle Starr's Life & Legacy
00:38:58
Speaker
finish. So it's like a nice and nice carrot at the end of the stick. So I find a nonfiction that does help, too, in terms of motivation, which for me is probably a good thing.
00:39:08
Speaker
You know, I think I think that type of motivation is helpful. ah with um you know With your latest book, um and like at at the i always love going to the acknowledgements, too, after I read it, because they're usually some good threads to pull on.
00:39:22
Speaker
And ah I love hearing you say, this project never would have gotten off the ground without the incredible support of your editor, Nick Amflit, and your agent, Renee Zuckerbrot. And ah just I want you to maybe take us to that moment of how you got altitude, ah you know, for a project like like the Queen of All Mayhem. Like what were those early conversations?
00:39:43
Speaker
In this instance, it it actually started with a conversation with my editor at the time. At the time, i I was looking for an idea, I think, and I had a few I wanted to kind of pitch to him and talk about.
00:39:55
Speaker
And I, you know, I'd worked with him before. And so I was on the phone and I had these like a few ideas I'd been tinkering with and none of them, you know, I kind of got the, nah, like that probably, that doesn't i don't know if that'll work type response.
00:40:10
Speaker
And so I was sort of out of ideas. And I think at some point I just asked, well, what what are what are you looking for? What are people looking for? What are what are good subjects to explore right now? And the response was, you know stories america you know historical stories set in America and stories about crime were always promising.
00:40:29
Speaker
And i just this is something that just just happenstance just came up, but i'd I'd been talking to another friend of mine who was an editor, and I'd talked to him about an article that never never came to fruition, but one of the things i mentioned in the article was When I was a little kid, my mom always said we were distantly related to Bell Star, the female bandit from the Wild West.
00:40:51
Speaker
And I didn't know that much about it. you know I didn't know any details. just this story. We had a few stories like that, some of which I know are true. This one, it was rather rather ambiguous, and I talk about this in the book. But I just kind of casually mentioned this when we were having this conversation about ideas for new books.
00:41:08
Speaker
And in doing so, it was you know something just clicked. It was like a light bulb went off, the record skipped off the vinyl. My editor said, wait, tell me tell me more about this Bell Star. I told him a little bit I knew, which wasn't that much.
00:41:22
Speaker
You know, he asked, well, could you write together a little summary of her life? I'm just curious. Just, you know, a page. And I did. And then from there, we were just off to the races. I guess there were some internal talks on their end, and they loved the idea, and they asked if I could do a biography about it.
00:41:38
Speaker
And I said, sure, i'd be you know, I'd be happy to. And fortunately, I was very lucky in this regard. I think once I dug in and started doing the research about Bell Star, it actually turned out to be her life even more thrilling and kind of adventurous and dramatic than I expected.
00:41:55
Speaker
And that's something I've noticed just from the past. One of the things about nonfiction, as I mentioned, is you have to do this proposal ahead of time. Which means, i mean, bluffing sounds negative, not that you're bluffing, but you're kind of saying, oh, I can write this thrilling, captivating, you know, 300 page book. yeah You just have to you just have to pay me to do it. Yeah. With almost none of the research done. Yeah. like yeah just Yeah. Yeah. You haven't really dug it. So you never know exactly what you're going to find. You're always a little nervous if there's really going to be there.
00:42:24
Speaker
be enough there to fill up a book. And i'm I've always been nervous doing this, but it's never been a problem. it's always It's always worked out well. And I think the stories have worked out even better than I expected. And in this case, that was absolutely true. and ah yeah, it just, it turned out digging in, doing the research, going through archives and, know, learning more about her life. She turned out to be even much more interesting and dramatic and, you know, adventurous character than I imagined. And I think the book turned out even better than I imagined. You know, I thought there was a story there, but it turned out to be a great story. So was really, really excited about it when it was finished.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah. And the the story to me, and it really struck me as a as a story ah of reinvention in a time where and an agency in a time for, you know, when women didn't have a certain measure of that agency.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah. yeah she She took it upon herself to make a name for herself and a new name for herself. Yeah, I think that's the essence of her story.
00:43:25
Speaker
ah She came from ah you know ah a fairly prosperous family, and not that's super rich, but they were prosperous in their community, kind of community leaders. Her father was ah was a breeder of horses, was a stock farmer, and also ran this kind of prominent hotel in Carthage, Missouri.
00:43:42
Speaker
And they were they were regarded as leaders you know pillars of the community. They they were doing well money-wise. And, you know, she she very easily could have just slipped into kind of a a Southern Belle type type role, you know, that was common at that time for kind of kind of an educated, educated woman of Southern parents and, you know, married a whatever, married a wealthy, wealthy farmer or rancher, plantation owner or or moved to Dallas and kind of been a socialite. there's There's a lot of things she could have done. And she just wanted none of that. You know, she she wanted.
00:44:16
Speaker
total freedom to pursue her own destiny and the freedom, you know, to do what she wanted, go where she wanted, love who she wanted, live how she wanted. And at that time, there wasn't really a legal means for her as a woman to do that.
00:44:29
Speaker
And so she, she chose an illegal way. You know, she chose, as I say in the book, the, the way of the gun, because that was the, that was the way that offered her the freedom. You know, if, if legally she wasn't allowed to type, to live the the type of life she wanted, then she would do it illegally. And that's exactly what she did.
00:44:45
Speaker
And she she became an outlaw and rode with a you know number of other famous outlaws. She was, let's see, well, friends with well, she married Jim Reed, who's a famous outlaw in his own right. Also friends with a Cole Younger.
00:44:57
Speaker
ah apparently friends with Jesse James and helped to hide him, it's believed at some point at her outlaw ranch. She had this very, very colorful, adventurous life, was pursued strongly by both ah federal authorities and tribal authorities because she spent the last decade of her life living in the Cherokee Nation.
00:45:16
Speaker
married into this local Cherokee family, a branch of which had its own kind of criminal enterprise going. And so, so yeah, she had this extremely colorful wildlife and it ah it turned out to be a good story.
00:45:30
Speaker
What was the challenge for you in and writing and ah specifically writing this book when there was a lot of uncertainty around her? and There's a lot of like perhaps it was like this, you know, maybe it went down like this or this could have happened.
00:45:44
Speaker
You know, how did you navigate all of that uncertainty as you were writing it? Sure. Just writing about that era, the sort of Wild West in general, is hard because there's so much mythology around. Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
And it gets really tricky to separate the... You know, separate the fact from the fiction. yeah And documentation in many cases can't be trusted either.
00:46:07
Speaker
You know, for example, Bell Star on one of her marriage certificates lied about her age. Or, know, newspaper reporters at that time, they would invent details to try to sell newspapers.
00:46:20
Speaker
And so, and there's also a lot of oral history that can't later becomes written history. You can't always rely on different versions of stories, depending who's telling them. So it gets very tricky writing history.
00:46:32
Speaker
And I, you know, I think i say as much in the opening of the book that trying to write her biography is less like and an academic exercise and more kind of an artistic one of trying to render a portrait of her as faithfully as possible while also acknowledging certain amount of interpretation.
00:46:50
Speaker
And then on top of all of that, she was an outlaw. And essentially, she was involved in organized crime. So you know they didn't keep records of this stuff. It was kind of known sort of the same way you know al Capone, they ended up having to having to bust him on on tax evasion charges. Even though everyone knew he was the leader of this huge you know criminal enterprise, it was very hard to prove because there wasn't any documentation.
00:47:14
Speaker
And ah I think the same to a certain extent is true of her. And so what you end up having to go after are things like the resources that authorities put into putting her behind bars, which are considerable, but what she was charged with. And she she did she did get arrested in due time for horse theft, but she was also arrested another time for horse theft and also for armed robbery.
00:47:38
Speaker
Those charges she beat. But i'm I think she was she was guilty personally. But, you know. That's my take. And then you also have to, you know, you look at the notes, obviously, from the court records, what they're saying about her. Then you look at the the journalists, the newspapers, what are they saying about her? How is she described in the press?
00:47:57
Speaker
And they definitely did, you know, describe some of her capers. They described, they did describe her as this kind of outlaw queen, the leader of this band of outlaws. I mean, she was acknowledged as such at the time. It wasn't invented after her death.
00:48:10
Speaker
I guess beyond that, you do rely to aner to a certain extent kind of on things more like folklore and written you know written accounts, eyewitness accounts, things like that that have been recorded.
00:48:23
Speaker
But yeah I mean, I think you have to take that with an even bigger grain of salt. You use all of these documents together and and accounts and and this and that, and you try to you try to decipher. You have to be a detective of sorts, and you have to say all right, these are the clues.
00:48:38
Speaker
you know We don't have any documented evidence what sort of illegal activity she was up to, but she was living with the Starr family, this family of the Cherokee Nation, who were known for kind of smuggling and stealing horses.
00:48:51
Speaker
She was claimed to be a leader of a band of horse thieves. She was charged with you know with horse theft and did time for it. and And she was also came from a family. She a huge passion for horses herself.
00:49:03
Speaker
So, you know, you can make clear. It's like, all right, she she was probably the leader of a ring of horse thieves, among other things. So, you know, but but again, a lot of it's hard to prove. You know, that's it's always any type you're writing a historical book, it's hard, but it gets, like I said, especially tricky when you're talking about organized crime from the Wild West era.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah. And structurally, you know, you yeah open the book with the this sort of cedy nefarious scene of of Belle's murder by this kind of shadowy unknown figure.
00:49:34
Speaker
And so like right off the bat, we're were introduced to her as someone worthy of the target. um You know just take us to that moment just creatively of like, oh, yeah, this is how I want to enter this story on her.
00:49:48
Speaker
I like the idea of of starting with something to really draw the reader in. I think that accomplishes it, and it sets the tone right away that this is going to be a murder mystery. And you know I think i'm I'm definitely not the first person to do this. I think it's sort of, you know there are a number of Scorsese movies and stuff like that that start you know, that start the end or a movie like Carlitos Way is one that comes to mind that starts with, the you know, that a lot of these sort of organized crime movies that start with the with the some sort of disaster or some kind of killing, whatever. And that draws you in. And then the rest of the the rest of the movie is you learning how it came to be, you know, how this came to pass.
00:50:26
Speaker
And I think I like this idea. And also, too, just from a very practical standpoint, you know the the the intro beyond this, the first couple chapters of when she's a girl growing up in Missouri and her family history, it's interesting, but it's not the most action-packed part of the book. I mean, there's a lot more action later.
00:50:44
Speaker
So I think it also occurred to me that, all right, if if the first couple chapters are going to be sort of setting the stage for her as a girl and where a family came from and whatever, not going have a lot of firsthand accounts of gunfights and you know raids and bank robberies, stuff like that, that it be nice to start on a note that draws people in, that sort has some action to it, and that people know what they're in for.
00:51:06
Speaker
and your're but And like I said, you're basically just setting up this mystery. you know Who killed Bell Star? That's the... That's the mystery. And I think also too, from a practical standpoint, it sort of made sense to know she died this way ahead of time, that she was that she was gunned down. I think, off the top of my head, I'm trying to remember where, but I just i just remember thinking that it like it it worked with the sort of structure of the book where you went into it knowing that someone someone was going to gun her down and end her life.
00:51:42
Speaker
But yeah, i I like the beginning. i think it's ah I think it's a cool way to start a book. I don't know. yeah It's true. And again, that's also evidence for that she was, you know, she wasn't a poser. She wasn't pretending to be someone she wasn't. I mean, she was the type of person who made the kind of enemies who would blow her off a horse with a shotgun and assassinate her basically and then execute her, you know, kind of gangland style point blank range with ah with a second barrel.
00:52:07
Speaker
And that's what happened to her. So, and you know, that it makes a great ending for the book too. I think the final part of the book, I won't give anything away, but it delves really deep into this murder mystery and explores the suspects and possible motivations and things like that.
00:52:20
Speaker
So I think it makes for a good ending too. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I'm thinking of the usual suspects, too, where it where that movie starts out at that yeah sort of bungled mission. And then we we come back to it at the very end to learn who Kaiser Sose is and everything. there There's an element of that. I'm now connecting with your book.
00:52:42
Speaker
i Like I said, I'm not the first person to use this sort of device in criminal narrative, but i I think it does work. and it yeah i think it's ah If you're going to do a book about Bell Star and you want to get people, you know show them right away the kind of person she was and the type of trouble she got into, i think that that scene where she's where she's blown off her horse is ah is a good way to go.
00:53:06
Speaker
Yeah. And ah there's little by way of stuff that is like from her pen or her vocalizing. So i imagine when you came across the things, whether she was quoted in newspapers or like the very few you know letters you were able to procure, like this one very long letter that she wrote to her daughter, Pearl.
00:53:26
Speaker
That must have been really energizing to come across something like that, because when you get a hold of that, things really start to come to life in a way that's like, oh, this is really cool.
00:53:38
Speaker
there There are very few written sources, you know, direct primary sources written by her, but there are a few things there. I mean, there's an interview that allegedly she gave to a newspaper. There's, I guess, a couple of letters that she wrote that I include in the book in their entirety, just because it's so rare yeah to hear her in her voice.
00:53:59
Speaker
But even then, though, again, I'll go back to what I said before. There have historically been some people who doubted the authenticity of these letters, I went over them. I think they're authentic because they include they include details that that there's really no way for, you know, very small details that I don't think could have been forged, you know, knowing about her life, knowing this and that. and i'm I'm pretty convinced they're authentic, and, you know, I'm totally comfortable including them as written by her, and they've generally been regarded as as written by her.
00:54:31
Speaker
But, yeah, like I said, you always have to have a ti you know some degree of a grain of salt because it's hard to prove anything. is true. But yeah, I think the letters are authentic and they are very cool because yeah actually you have this sort of mysterious little known character, this legendary outlaw and just getting a little glimpse into her, into her psyche and learning things you didn't know about her, but also verifying things you did, you know, that you, you learned from her letter to her daughter that the myths were true about her horsemanship, that she was really like you know, she talks about sort of breaking and taming horses and whatnot, that she was good at it.
00:55:06
Speaker
one of the interesting things is she instructs her daughter. This is when she's ah going to trial and her daughter's, she sent her daughter away from the Cherokee Nation to go stay with friends in Kansas, I believe.
00:55:18
Speaker
And it becomes clear this sort of paranoia that she says, she tells her daughter, you know, don't don't tell people who you are. don't if anyone writes to you don't you know don't don't give away where you are only like you know Only open letters from me, whatever it is.
00:55:32
Speaker
because i think she generally was worried for her daughter's safety. And it, and it, it became clear. I make this point in the book that she did have powerful enemies. It's not clear from the letter who they are. My guess is probably unfriendly factions within the, within the Cherokee nation. Cause the family she married into had, had enemies there as well.
00:55:54
Speaker
My guess would probably be that, which is why she sent her away. But, you know, but, but it's not clear, but you start to see like, when you go back to that murder mystery at the end, her own murder mystery, all the different suspects, like, all right, clearly there were, you know, there were people who she thought wished her harm and maybe the sort of paranoid tone in her letter isn't so, isn't so paranoid after all.
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah. and there's a moment in that letter as well, where she encourages Pearl to basically keep her nose in her books, you know, and stay and study, which harkens back to, to to Bell's upbringing where she was, you know, educated and literate.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yeah. One thing about her is she had a son and a daughter and she definitely wanted, you know, kind of the typical organized crime mobster cliche, you know, kind of wanted something better for her children. Didn't want them to want them to follow the the road she did. You know, she wanted them to be legitimate, but she was also in some ways, i mean, I mean, yeah, not the best mother in the, in the world, would you expect from this sort of,
00:57:01
Speaker
criminal riding with his gang of, of cutthroats and outlaws, you know, going into going on the run from the law, robbing people, all these other things she was doing. And she wasn't present for big chunks of her, of her children's lives.
00:57:15
Speaker
And yeah. And I think caused a lot of problems. They grew up to resent her for it. There was a lot of animosity between them, not love too, I think, but also it was like, there were complicated relationships.
00:57:26
Speaker
And in the end, I think, I think, you know, the lifestyle, her, you know She clearly loved her children very much, but she did have some failings as a parent. And I think they they kind of caught up with her children. I mean, her son was gunned down in some kind of drunken dispute in a bar shortly after her death.
00:57:46
Speaker
So it's unclear. And he did her son did what did get involved in crime, dude did do some time, I believe, for a horse theft off top of my head. And then he tried to go straight and even tried to make his way into law enforcement.
00:57:58
Speaker
But I think the pull was too great. And he ended up getting in some kind of drunken fight in a bar. There's there's different versions of the story, some of which claim he was there an official law business. you know But I honestly, based on what I've read, I don't think that's true. I think he just got drunk and unruly in a bar and got in a gunfight and died.
00:58:17
Speaker
ah So he died shortly after his mother did. And then her daughter, Pearl, she she lived to a ripe old age, but she ended up going into go working in a brothel.
00:58:30
Speaker
And there's a story. i'm i'm not I can't prove this is true, I don't think. But there's a story that she did it to raise money to help her brother you know for his legal fees. So I'm not sure if that's true or not. But ah apparently she did start working in a brothel. And I don't think these kind of frontier, you know, Fort Smith, Arkansas, Oklahoma, whatever brothels were.
00:58:50
Speaker
probably weren't the most pleasant places, but she, she bounced around a number of brothels, but she did toward the end become something of a madam. So I guess, you know, she, I think, I think in this latter part of her life, she, she was, she was a madam at a brothel and she lived a what a ripe old age. And I believe she eventually married.
00:59:11
Speaker
And if I remember correctly, ended up living in, in Arizona or something like that, you know, well into the 20th century. So, I mean, she, so her daughter lived, but had kind of a pretty difficult youth and her, her son was, was gunned down in ah and a drunken gunfight, which is basically not far from what happened to almost every man in her life. And when you look at Bell Star, and the, the amount of, of bloodshed is just her, you know two of her brothers died in gun violence, three of her four husbands, I believe, ah died in gunfights.
00:59:47
Speaker
ah Yeah, the the violence was rampant. It wasn't in this instance, it wasn't just this kind of Wild West myth, you know, created for Hollywood. It was it was real. I'd say it was almost even more so than what you think. I was kind of surprised at the level of violence in this milieu.
01:00:02
Speaker
that she ran with, most people died from gunfights and a few ended up in prison. But for the most part, you know most of the important men in her life died you know died committing crimes, you know shootouts with law enforcement, or just died in sort of drunken drunken brawls, drunken gunfights, duels, whatever.
01:00:24
Speaker
As she moved into and lived in Cherokee Nation, and there there's a moment, too, where you write that you know she was done being you know she was a gangster, done being a gangster, but she was going to be ah a gang lord.
01:00:38
Speaker
and ah So what changed for her as she made that transition in her life? Well, prior to that, she'd been married to Jim Reed. They were from kind of roughly the same part of Missouri. He was a Confederate guerrilla, a bushwhacker during the war.
01:00:55
Speaker
i don't think he fought alongside her. He was with Quantrill's Raiders. Her brother, Bud, wasn't with Quantrill's Raiders, but they probably knew each other. Like, I think it was kind of a small world. So... I think they knew each other from before that.
01:01:08
Speaker
And ah so so he went back to the Missouri days. And a lot of these Missouri guerilla Confederate guerrillas, when the war ended, because they'd never been official Confederate soldiers, they were just kind of you know, just guerrillas, basically, they they weren't necessarily afforded the same clemency and protection that uniform confederates were after when the war ended.
01:01:27
Speaker
And there are a lot of people who wanted them hanged and prosecuted and dead, you know, around that area, because the violence at that time was just was just horrible. There was lots of barn burnings and slayings and massacres and lynchings and everything.
01:01:40
Speaker
So a lot of these former guerrillas fled Missouri. and Also, the economy was just in total ruins, too. So it was like it was just ah you know a scorched wasteland. A lot of them resettled in Texas. That was ah you know in kind of the area specifically not too far from Dallas.
01:01:56
Speaker
And that's where Bell Star's family went when they left Missouri. And a lot of these other Missouri family, Confederate family, as many of them have also been guerrillas, they they went, too. One of whom was Jim Reed, who she ended up marrying.
01:02:09
Speaker
And read followed in the footsteps of a lot of these guerrillas where there wasn't, you know, they, they picked up all these military skills, these guerrilla skills during the war, you know, they learned how to shoot pistols from, from horseback and, you know, rob union cash depots and, and, and rob union trains and things like that. They picked up these, you know, these very specific skills.
01:02:34
Speaker
And when the war was over, they had no way to earn money and no, you know no kind of like legal trade to ply. And so they just used these skills and basically created what we think of as Wild West banditry. It all had its roots, really, in what they were doing against Union forces and Union militias during the war.
01:02:53
Speaker
so that's why you're these same you know these were the guys who did the first kind of like daytime bank robberies, the same train heists, the same stagecoach robberies, all these sorts of things that you think of as classic Wild West banditry.
01:03:06
Speaker
You know, outlaw behavior. they there was these gorillas who who introduced it to the Wild West and they they started doing it across the frontier, not just in Missouri. And they started doing in Texas. They said doing it in what was then called Indian Territory, modern day Oklahoma. And one of these gorillas was Jim Reed, who Bell Star married.
01:03:24
Speaker
And he was an interesting character. i i see him as like a bit of a, you know, kind of feckless, kind of a near do well. And you think of these sort of, you know, mob movies or crime movies, you know, there's often this character who kind of can't keep their mouth shut or after a big score, you know, can't stay out of trouble and get pinched or, you know, these sort of characters.
01:03:46
Speaker
And he always struck me reading about his life as that type of character. And they did have one huge score. And I think it was really just kind of dumb luck. There was this big, the Grayson robbery. where on the In the Indian Territory, there's this one kind of prominent member of of tribal leadership who apparently had a lot of money hidden under the floorboards or wherever it was in his ranch.
01:04:09
Speaker
And Jim Reed and some of his buddies found out about this and they went to go hold him, you know, stick him up. And Bell Star went along with them kind of as like a sidekick. And the way I look at it, I think she was kind of like the lookout, you know, she kind of like maybe held fresh horses. It was sort of the lookout outside where they went in and did the dirty work.
01:04:28
Speaker
But when, you know, after they robbed it, they ended up making off with $30,000, $32,000 in gold, which is a lot today. Back then, that was, yeah you know, that's enormous. That's a fortune beyond comprehension.
01:04:39
Speaker
And they should have been set for life. And i think Bell Star thought that they were. And instead, her husband took their cut and just blew it all in all the ways you could imagine a Wild West outlaw doing, know.
01:04:50
Speaker
horse races, gambling at the you know gambling at the at the saloon, whiskey brothels, all that stuff. And on top of blowing all the money, he kind of went on this wild spree and picked up a mistress.
01:05:05
Speaker
That was really what drove and Bellstar apart. They still were technically married, but he kind of went off on his own, went on this other crime spree with this mistress, and eventually got killed by a bounty hunter.
01:05:17
Speaker
And that's a great scene, too. The scene where the bounty hunter kills him is just like it's like something out of a movie. you know It's just it's phenomenal. So at that point, Bella's a widow. Her husband's been gunned down in this bloody melee by this bounty hunter.
01:05:32
Speaker
and And she's kind of fed up. And she eventually she kind of drifts for a while. Eventually she she goes in She kind of shacks up with this sort of small-time gambler, possibly outlaw.
01:05:46
Speaker
And they do get married. And something happens. It's still unclear exactly what. But he they stayed married for just a couple of weeks. And then he took off And I think that was the last straw for Belle. And at this point, she'd always been kind of a a sidekick, you know, and and I think and I mentioned this kind of like Anglo frontier, male dominated frontier. That's all she could be.
01:06:07
Speaker
And I think she finally reached her breaking point. She got fed up. And because her, many of these these ah Confederate guerrillas she hung out with, including her ex-husband, and had a lot of dealings with with the Cherokee Nation, in part because they'd helped them as guerrillas, you know fought alongside them during the Confederate War.
01:06:25
Speaker
And they'd they'd forged this criminal alliance afterwards with like smuggling and horse theft, things like that. She was just fed up with this world and went straight to Indian territory, straight to the Cherokee Nation, and almost directly married into the Starr family. and She married Sam Starr, who was the son of Tom Starr, who's this legendary Cherokee figure.
01:06:46
Speaker
And his story, I mean, you could write a whole other book about him. he's was a political rebel, kind of a ah warlord, organized crime lord. you know There's different ways of looking at it, but he was this powerful sort of legendary figure who was very much respected and feared in the the Cherokee Nation at that time.
01:07:05
Speaker
Respected too. a lot A lot of people respected him. There's often ah some often been this debate about... you know how much what How much of it was he ah was a gangster and how much he was just kind of a political political rebel against the you know the Cherokee government power. i It was both, in my opinion, but people could dispute that.
01:07:24
Speaker
But she married right into this sort of powerful family with a history of ah violence and and and criminal behavior. and And she got right to business and her she started getting involved in organized crime, sort of the Starr family business alongside her husband Sam to an extent.
01:07:43
Speaker
And eventually he would die in a gunfight. You could kind of say defending her honor to an extent, but... he He'd been riding her favorite horse, Venus, and there was a family who they're actually related to called the Wests, and Frank West, who was actually a cousin of some kind, they' there'd been this feud between them because he was Frank West was in Cherokee law enforcement, and Sam Starr was you know something of an outlaw, and he shot he shot him off the horse. He was kind of fleeing from the from tribal authorities and killed the horse in the process.
01:08:17
Speaker
And ah there was a bit of a truce after that, but there was still this lingering bad blood. And at a Christmas party, Belle, according to the legend, anyway, was playing, she loved to play the piano, was playing the piano or possibly a pedal organ at the festivities. And Frank West, this lawman in this blood feud, with showed up down below to warm himself by a bonfire down below this cabin.
01:08:39
Speaker
And either Sam, of his own volition, went down to confront him and challenge him to sort of a duel, or Belle There's one story that says, go get you know get go get that son of a bitch. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's one version of the story.
01:08:53
Speaker
Regardless, to kind of because of his anger at being wounded himself and also for killing his wife's favorite horse, he went down to ah to challenge Frank West to a gunfight. And you know again, this is also very cinematic.
01:09:06
Speaker
They both essentially pulled their guns at the same time, both shot at each other. Both died, but apparently Sam Starr lived just a second or two longer, long enough to stay on his feet and see his sort of arch m enemy fall to the ground dead, and then he tumbled dead a minute later.
01:09:23
Speaker
So just like that, Belle became a widow again. And after that, she kind of started to freelance, I think. I think she, she they'd been running their own criminal gang. And I think after that, she, she to a certain extent, became the de facto leader of this of this criminal gang operating out of out of the Cherokee Nation, out of her. And the headquarters was this little, ranch makes it sound sprawling. It wasn't sprawling per se, but this homestead ranch called Younger's Bend.
01:09:54
Speaker
yeah it's a Yeah, it's a trip. you know her Her whole story, and the and especially in the that you the final chapter where you're basically like laying out all the suspects and like eliminating some, and this one could be, and then this one seems a little more plausible.
01:10:09
Speaker
its It's a really great ah summation to when you know spending some time with Belle and and the in the life she led and the life all these you these ah nefarious ne'er-do-wells led. So it was like just a really good rollicking read, Dane. um And, uh, but as I bring these conversations down for a landing, uh, I always love asking the guests, you in this case, just for a recommendation of some kind for the listeners. And that's just something that you think is a fun and cool. That's making you happy. And you want to, you know share with the listeners.
01:10:40
Speaker
would Would you prefer a book or anything? you know what? I like most people recommend books, but I always encourage anything, you know, just sometimes to get out of the the reader or writer mindset and go to some other, some other place.
01:10:54
Speaker
right let me think a second. I'll start with a book and then if something else comes to mind. But i this project definitely got me interested in in Western, you know, Western literature, which, you know, I read a lot of history books, but necessarily a lot of novels. I've been working on this other little writing project on the side that involves choosing books on the subject. And two books I read recently that they're kind of about Western type books.
01:11:18
Speaker
and I actually haven't finished either of them yet. So one I just started, the other i'm about half done with. But one is Death Comes from the Archbishop, which is a really interesting book. I think it's from the twenty s And it's an interesting, it's still from an interesting perspective because it's about a ah priest or whoever has been sort of promoted to bishop and sent to the diocese of what was in New Mexico, which is this is during the Wild West times.
01:11:45
Speaker
Because, you know, before this had all been, you know, this had all been part you know under Spanish or French control and later Mexico. And so there was this need for to sort of to begin managing this really wild frontier, with you know but was nominally Catholic.
01:11:58
Speaker
And I thought it was just a really interesting perspective because so much of of the what when you talk about the West, the sort of narratives, or it comes from these very Anglo perspectives. And it's easy to forget that it was most of it was controlled by ah France or Spain at some point, and that and by extension, the the Catholic Church. So it's that's interesting.
01:12:18
Speaker
An interesting book, an interesting perspective. So that's one thing I would suggest. And also, I just started True Grit, which is a fan. You know, I've only read the first couple of chapters, but I'm loving it so far.
01:12:31
Speaker
it's ah It's better than even than I expected. So i ah based on only the few chapters I've read, I would say, though, that it's ah that's ah that's a good book to check out if you're looking for ah a novel about the West. Nice.
01:12:42
Speaker
Cool. Well, I like the sound of that. That sounds great. but Well, Dane, this is awesome to get to talk to you again about ah you just how we go about this line of work we're in and and getting to talk Bell Star and Queen of All Mayhem. So this was ah this was great. I'm so glad we got to have another conversation.
Baseball Game Experience & Personal Reflection
01:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, the pleasure's all mine. Thanks for having me back. I really enjoyed it.
01:13:11
Speaker
That nice. That was fun. Dane's a cool dude. wish I was Dane. Living in Paris. Sipping on gin and juice. So last weekend, we were attending the Emeralds Games, the minor league team here in town, and I'm one of those rare nerds who keeps score at a baseball game, keeps me engaged, keeps me from the booze in this game against the Vancouver Canadiens.
01:13:39
Speaker
Jonah Cox, one of the fastest runners in all of minor league baseball, seriously. hit a tailing line drive to right field. The right fielder gambled by diving for the ball. He missed it, and the ball rolled to the fence.
01:13:54
Speaker
You knew at this point, Jonah had a chance at the rare inside-the-park home run. He's screaming around the bases. Round and first, into second, down to third. Right field has the ball, hits the cutoff man. Cutoff man fires home.
01:14:07
Speaker
Jonah dives for the plate, and he beat the throw. Thrilling play. Following the game, there was a pretty cool drone show, so we stayed late.
01:14:19
Speaker
After it was over, we exited the concourse, and turns out we passed Jonah and a couple of the other players, who now in civilian clothes, had stayed to watch the drone show.
01:14:31
Speaker
There were also about eight young women to their side. So to quote a 1990s baseball commercial featuring Greg Maddox and Tom Glavin, chicks dig the long ball. Anyway, as we exited the stadium, I told Melanie that we had just passed Jonah and a couple others.
01:14:47
Speaker
I should give him, I should have him sign my notebook. You know, she's like, well, go back. and like Well, should I i mean, i don't want to bother him. And it's like, yeah, yeah, go, go, go.
01:15:01
Speaker
So I was like getting nervous. I'm like, who the fuck cares? I'm like all nervous. I'm like butterflies. like, what am I going to say? But I went back in the stadium and meekly sidled up to Jonah. And I was like, hey, Jonah, awesome inside the park home run. He said, well, thank you very much.
01:15:20
Speaker
Would you mind signing my scorebook on your scoreline? He's like, sure, sure. He signed it, he shook my hand, and he was super gracious, didn't seem annoyed that I interrupted him in his conversation, and otherwise he was just super nice.
01:15:35
Speaker
And I walked away feeling like a little kid. And let's just zoom in on this moment for a little bit. i truly felt like a 10-year-old. I'm 45 fucking years old.
01:15:46
Speaker
I was 21 when Jonah was born. He was born five weeks before 9-11, like the OG 9-11, 2001.
01:15:59
Speaker
He turns 24 on August 4th. He's listed as 6'3", but I think it's closer to 6'1", and I'm a mere five nine if my vertebrae are adequately hydrated, but I felt like such a little loser.
01:16:13
Speaker
like I was like, hey, Mr. Jonah, great game. Can you sign my notebook? Okay. Melanie and I, after a game, went to Salt-N-Straw because they were having an ice cream promotion where if you said, make it a double, and they gave you an extra scoop for free.
01:16:30
Speaker
So we go get ice cream. We joked around. We're like, hey, Mr. Jonah, you want to come get ice cream with us? And so on. and Here I am like an old dude in his eyes and make no mistake. Make no mistake. Remember when you were in your low 20s and you saw someone in their 40s?
01:16:49
Speaker
They were old as shit. Old balls. It was bizarre. I forgot for a moment that I'm this creepy old dude. But like I truly felt like a a little leaguer yeah asking for an autograph.
01:17:02
Speaker
you know To me, it's a fun keepsake, and I doubt Jonah will ever sign someone's scorebook ever again, and I doubt he's even given it a moment's thought since that Friday night.
01:17:14
Speaker
I'm a guy who will find any excuse to beat the shit out of himself for the most minor infractions. And I didn't do anything wrong, except maybe being a weirdo middle-aged guy asking for an autograph.
01:17:25
Speaker
But there weren't any children around. They muscle anyone out of the way. No one was talking to him except a couple of his teammates. Nobody paid them any attention, save for the group of beautiful young female baseball fans.
01:17:38
Speaker
And I remember going all the way back to 2006 when i I met the writer, an immersive journalist, Ted Conover, at a residency, at a MFA residency.
01:17:52
Speaker
He was hes on the podcast for episode 50, if you want to check that out. It holds up. The audio might not be great, as good as it is now, but it it holds up. Good stuff.
01:18:05
Speaker
But I remember feeling similarly meek and shy when I approached him to have him sign a copy of my book, Coyotes. And that's the kind of kid I was growing up.
01:18:16
Speaker
You know, try to disappear and be invisible. It's best to be invisible. Learn that from my mother. It's best to be a doormat for people to walk all over than to cause a stir because you don't want to ruffle any feathers.
01:18:33
Speaker
You don't want to disturb the water. Just, yeah, you just, oh, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. kind of sucks that they, that these people are walking all over you, but you know, it's okay. Just, so ah it'll, it'll pass and then you can say thank you for stabbing me in the back.
01:18:49
Speaker
It's okay. You don't want to make him any more upset.
01:18:53
Speaker
So yeah, got an autograph. He couldn't have been nicer, which was pretty cool. His sister, it turns out, is a star softball player for the U of O. So they got good blood, man.
01:19:06
Speaker
They got good blood. So stay wild, CNA Everest. If can't do, interview safe.