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Episode 474: How to Reconfigure the Fireworks with Yi Shun Lai
251 Plays4 hours ago
"One of the things I've done is to reconfigure the fireworks. The fireworks for me now are getting to have this thing off my desk so I get to work on something new. That's the firework," says Yi Shun Lai, an author, writer, and instructor.
Our occasion for this show was an essay she wrote for Writer Magazine about "arrival fallacy," this notion that once we get "there," wherever "there" is, we will have made it.
She's the author of three books, all in different genres, the YA novel A Suffragist's Guide to the Antarctic, the novel Not a Self-Help Book: The Misadventures of Marty Wu, and the micro memoir Pin Ups.
Learn more about Yi Shun at thegooddirt.org and follower her on social media @yishunlai.
In this episode, we talk about:
- How to reconfigure the fireworks
- Arrival fallacy
- Money
- Privilege
- And being kind to yourself.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Frustration and Promotion Dilemmas
00:00:00
Speaker
Didn't fucking record and you know what? Like my mouse is so finicky and I already read my opening script here.
00:00:10
Speaker
I did it. I did it beginning to end and turns out my record button didn't start recording. And now I'm doing it again. And now I'm going to record this intro a little bit on edge, a little angry.
00:00:26
Speaker
Should I even keep promoting the front runner? ah It's out there. i have to remember that not everybody listens to every episode of this podcast. There could be newbies with every podcast. And I'm flippant about the front runner at this point in terms of my promotion.
00:00:42
Speaker
Or I'm just sick of my voice for talking about
Introducing Yi Shan Lai
00:00:44
Speaker
it. Okay, listen, I've done only like 10 interviews. so like i It's been way less than that, to be honest. So I can't be that sick of it. But I have spoken a lot about it on the show, so maybe that's where my fatigue comes from.
00:00:58
Speaker
Whatever. If you choose, buy it from your favorite bookstore and leave ratings and leave reviews wherever they post. I don't even care. And also, dude, let's, let's not overlook the craft of wallowing.
00:01:14
Speaker
I
00:01:21
Speaker
an i told you it's going to get angry. It's creative nonfiction podcast, a show where speak to bad-ass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, your CNF and spin instructor, the sad kind, not the motivational kind.
00:01:35
Speaker
So this was a fun one. Yi Shan Lai is here. Now it's funny. I had an old issue of what I believe is now defunct writer magazine. I had this issue, I believe was in a goodie bag for AWP or something.
00:01:50
Speaker
And Pete Croato, a friend who's been on the show a bunch of times, wrote the book From Hang Time to Prime Time about the NBA. Go buy that for the NBA lover in your life. had He had a freelance essay in the magazine, so like, oh, cool, check this out.
00:02:05
Speaker
I was paging through this 2019 issue, and I was getting rid of it. too Decluttering is my happy place. But in this issue was an essay from Yishun about a rival fallacy, this notion that if we simply achieve this, whatever this is, we will have made it.
00:02:23
Speaker
So I was like, damn, damn, I got to get her on the show to talk about that. and being a working writer and all the things.
Engagement and Support
00:02:32
Speaker
Juiced up show notes and more at brendanamara.com. Hey, there you can find links to hot blogs, tasteful nudes, and forms to sign up for the flagship Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter.
00:02:42
Speaker
First the month, no spam can't beat it. And the hottest thing since Springsteen's ass in tight jeans, Pitch Club, where I have a journalist audio annotate a cold pitch that earned publication.
00:02:54
Speaker
If you're a working journalist, you'll want to subscribe. If you're a journalism teacher, you'll want your students subscribing. Forever free. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Issue one features Nick Davidson.
00:03:05
Speaker
Issue two, which is in the can and getting some tweaks. It's in post. It's with Rana Nator, who, oh, I don't know, just won the National Magazine Award. Hmm.
00:03:17
Speaker
Got a new patron over at the Patreon page, so shout-outs are in order. For Amy Brooks, thanks for joining the $2 tier. And if you want to support the show and its infrastructure and my ego, go to patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:03:30
Speaker
Thanks again, Amy. So Yi Shan is one of those multi-hyphenate
Yi Shan's Writing Journey
00:03:34
Speaker
writers. She writes across genres, like her YA novel, A Suffragist's Guide to the Arctic, and her A novel...
00:03:42
Speaker
Not a Self-Help Book, The Misadventures of Marty Wu, and The Micro Memoir. don't why I'm pronouncing it like that, but Memoyer pinups about her love affair with the outdoors and how she reconciles her place in it as a woman of color in a mostly white, mostly male world.
00:04:02
Speaker
You can learn more about her at thegooddirt.org and follow her on Instagram and TikTok at Yishan Lai. And I will spell that. It is Y-I-S-H-U-N. i s h u n L-A-I.
00:04:16
Speaker
Really fun conversation. She really brought the heat, which I greatly appreciate. Parting shot on Hank the murderer, but for now, cue the montage. You
00:04:32
Speaker
fucking idiot, give me that! Which is like how i feel about myself. Okay, whatever, like, you do you. If Mars had an area code, Before I know it, I'm shot with an arrow and this thing has grabbed me. This is gonna have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:59
Speaker
You do some teaching, you write some fiction, you do ah the kind of crafty you know writer's life articles. So like how do you see ah you know your place as a writer and how have you cultivated you know that multifaceted um sort of way to traffic in words?
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, um i you know I don't think my story is unique, right? I think that there are there is this myth that's out there that um you are a writer only if you are butt in chair um banging away your keyboard for eight hours and then the rest of the time on a fainting couch somewhere yeah noodling over your ideas.
00:05:38
Speaker
And I think that kind of imagery does a lot of damage to young writers today. ah So I'm super glad you asked this question because a lot of us cobble together a living from writing in the way that I have over the last two decades or so.
00:05:56
Speaker
A lot of us ah teach. A lot of us have, you know, running columns in in publications. And I should, of course, say that the writer has undergone an extremely unfortunate demise ah where it just doesn't exist anymore. You know, um and that's that's really sad because it it actually was America's oldest writing magazine. You know, it was started by Wordsworth. Right.
00:06:18
Speaker
ah So it's just ah it's just a very sad thing that these kind of publications um are fewer and fewer in number. Of course, there are those who who continue to exist. But for me, it that kind of multifaceted life kind of keeps my brain turning in lots of different directions.
00:06:34
Speaker
You will have seen, and you noted just a minute ago, that like you know I'm drawing from a lot of different aspects of my life, right? In any one essay, I'm drawing from my experience as a disaster relief volunteer or my experience as as an endurance athlete, ah my experience as a teacher, and even you know my experience as a lay artist, as it were. right So it it just makes my work much richer and it allows me to draw from other aspects of life and also be creative about the way that I make my living. right For a long time, i was actually i was ah a writer for the Jay Peterman catalog. do you Do you know what that is?
00:07:12
Speaker
i know I know the name from Seinfeld. Seinfeld. Yeah. Okay. So, dude, I was Elaine before Elaine was Elaine. um Yeah. And that's you know that's a beautiful thing, right? I mean, I'm i'm obsessed with the world of marketing and so interested in the way that we...
00:07:27
Speaker
think about the things that we acquire in life and why we acquire them, right? The things that drive us. ah So when I graduated, one of the first things I did was to apply to the Jay Peterman catalog as ah as a copywriter. and And at the time I was like the youngest ever copywriter for Jay Peterman.
00:07:42
Speaker
And it was so cool you know to be able to dive into even that aspect of writing. Right. I mean, the written word touches so much, Brendan. Right. Like it's it if for those of us for people who are I'm working with a lot of college students right now and for college students who are just stepping out of their undergraduate careers, they have no idea what kind of options are out there for them.
00:08:01
Speaker
Right. So i just I think about the written word as being as being i don't know, it's kind of tentacles every place. And I just think that's really cool. How have you alleviated or taken the pressure off yourself to make a certain kind of your writing kind of like the breadwinning writing of, you know, ah of your portfolio, for lack of a better term?
Challenges and Privileges in Writing
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah. um Do you mean in terms of genre or in terms of like the brand I want to make for myself? Let's see. I think, well, let's see. I think there's to further clarify, like say there's a particular writing that you wish you kind of like, that was the one you wish like made all your bones. Like, and you could be that person's writing, typing for eight hours every day and then on the pass out couch.
00:08:45
Speaker
I like i my right like my ideal for that would be it's like writing narrative profiles that you read in The New Yorker stuff like that. Like that's just my cup of tea biography. And um but I know that that's not a reality. You need to kind of get a spackle in the holes elsewhere or that actually spackles in the holes.
00:09:03
Speaker
um and And I think a an aspiring writer or an emerging writer or just someone who's frustrated might put a lot of pressure on themselves to make that thing support themselves. And I wonder if like if for you, if there's something that you're writing that you've taken the pressure off of, you know, like so you can come at it with energy and joy.
00:09:23
Speaker
Boy, I have not thought about that. And I think that speaks to my privilege. You know, I so a year and a half ago, I took a full time job someplace and actually at my alma mater, where I currently help young people to write their fellowship applications.
00:09:36
Speaker
And that's a lot about self excavating, right? It pays the bills very nicely, but for the 22 years before then, i freelanced, right? And I lived the you know the cobbling together, spackling life. And the difference between me and other writers is that I didn't have to depend on just myself to pay the bills, right? If things were if things were up, that was great. But if things were down, you know my health insurance comes from my husband's portfolio, right? you know We have plenty of savings socked away. I do not have to place a lot of pressure on myself. Okay. So I want to get that out of the way, right? Because like people don't talk about money in this business and I don't know why yeah there's, there's a literal clause in my, in my latest publishing contract with, with one of the big five that I'm not meant to talk about how much I make interest, which is obscene.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably in your contract too, mate, you know, it's probably, it's probably there are someplace. I hope it isn't because I've been openly talking about my my advance like crazy. This is the resistance, Brendan, right? Like we have to, I mean, you know, I'll go on record right now. Like I talk about it to my my to my students on a regular basis because publishing is such a gatekept industry and it should not be that way.
00:10:42
Speaker
Okay. It's not, it's not fair. Like people who think, I love that image of of folks who like think they're just going to be writing a diner someplace in their, in their messy journal. And like an editor from Harper Collins is going to fall over them having stumbled over some wet eggs on the floor and be like, Oh my God, your writing is incredible. Cause I can totally read your chicken scratch.
00:11:01
Speaker
Come on. I mean, and then, dude, and then on top of that, you know, this idea that like once you sign with a big five, you can just let it go and everything will be fan, fan dang tastic. Like, that's not a thing.
00:11:14
Speaker
You know, I mean, there's there's hustle and there's marketing. Okay. So, all right, I digress. all right. So back to your, your, your pointy question. Um, A, there's my privilege, right? Okay. So, so I just want to make sure that we, that we address that. Okay.
00:11:27
Speaker
um Also, I, I live a mile from my parents and if things were really, really, really bad, I could just go home. Okay. um So there's that, you know, we own the home that we live in outright. Okay. So there's all of that. All right. So I can, I can afford to take creative risks.
00:11:41
Speaker
All right. But I also have monkey brain. OK, and I know we talk about monkey brain as being um a bad thing. Right. But I've kind of chosen to embrace that because I don't feel guilty about being.
00:11:57
Speaker
sinking my teeth into one type of writing or another, right? They all kind of fulfill different parts of me. You know how you have the one friend that's good to go to the movies with and another friend that's good to have coffee with and another friend who's good to go for a run with, yeah right?
00:12:11
Speaker
This is like what the different types of writing are for, okay? So, you know, there's a part of me that loves to navel gaze and excavate. um My husband calls it letting the people that make me nuts live rent-free in my head, but I don't call it that.
00:12:28
Speaker
I call it getting to know myself a little bit more. Right. So there's a kind of self-indulgent sort of navel gazing, you know, that goes on in that regard. Right. Like what does make me tick? um And then there's the silly articles, you know some of which i I sent you, like the illustrated guide to orange cheese flavored crunchy snacks. Yeah, I love that. What the heck is that? You know, I mean,
00:12:49
Speaker
that's useful to nobody. Okay, I digress. It is the most important piece of journalism on the planet, obviously. um But like, you know, that also scratches another itch, right? And then the young adult fiction for me is about like trying to tell a story that has plagued me for a long time, right?
00:13:07
Speaker
And then, you know, the the the other nonfiction, the memoir stuff is about, you know, excavating the parts of my life that that that don't yet make sense to me, okay? But also, want to be very clear that sometimes you start a project and you're 250 pages in and you sit up and you're like,
00:13:23
Speaker
oh my gosh, I think this is a young adult book. And then your beta readers are like, well, no, duh. What did you think you were writing? Because we knew that all along. This may or may not be a true story.
00:13:37
Speaker
So, you know, it's one of those things where like, sometimes you just don't know until you start a thing what it actually is. And I think that's okay too. But like, then you kind of have to let go of that idea that stuff is predetermined.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I love that you you're bringing up the idea of of money too. And then when I've reached out to some listeners and i should just about some things that they would like to hear more about, usually the making a living and the money side of things comes up quite frequently because i felt like kind of like you said, a lot of it is walled off and there's It's frustrating for people because they don't have enough information to make determinations to to compare themselves versus like, am I on the right path or
Redefining Success and Community
00:14:17
Speaker
am I not? Like, what is I don't know. It's like going blindfolded. he
00:14:23
Speaker
You waste so much time. You're floundering around. Like, you don't know what's right and what's wrong. So much trial and error that it burns you out in the end. um yeah So I know just like for, you know, for you, it was, you know, what, yeah what did you wish that you knew when you started that, that, you know, now that is ah that, that would have just been so helpful for you.
00:14:43
Speaker
I wish I knew that when the book was published, it was not going to make me feel better about myself or feel great about myself even. Right.
00:14:54
Speaker
This is the concept that is a rival fallacy, which is that the minute that you Sign the book contract, get your books in the mail, you know, go to the bookstore and, you know, have the huge event where irrationally Terry Gross is in the audience and decides that she wants you on her show.
00:15:13
Speaker
That is going to be great. It's just not true. You know, that's just not a thing that happens because our human brains, our very human brains, prevents it, you know, because we're always looking forward to the next thing. And I think that that's okay.
00:15:26
Speaker
But nobody tells you, a that it's going to happen that way, or B, that it is okay for us to always hope for something more. Yeah, and the arrival fallacy, which you write about brilliantly for the writer magazine, and it was, ah it hit me, it really hit me hard because when you finish or turn in a manuscript or submit something or finish an Iron Man or a marathon,
00:15:50
Speaker
you know you You feel like in your head there's just going fireworks going off, but ultimately it's just kind of blah. It just happens. It ends, and then you're left with yourself and what to do with yourself now that you have arrived at this new thing. and it's you know How have you found to um to get the momentum going again so you can ah energize yourself after you have arrived? and It feels kind of dull.
00:16:19
Speaker
Okay, I'll answer that question, but but i want to I want to back up to something that you just said. You said that you thought that it would be, you know, the idea is that it'll just it'll be fireworks, right? Okay, so is it actually fireworks that we're looking for, do you think, or is it or is it something else? Like, what do you what do you actually think is going to happen when the contract comes through or when you go to the book signing or whatever?
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think you just, it's what you see on, ah like at the Super Bowl or something. Like the confetti's going to come down from the ceiling and the cameras are going to be in your face and you're going to be smiling and people are going to be asking you questions and they're gonna they're going to want to be you and you're in the spotlight.
00:16:58
Speaker
And i think, you know, it's just and the reality is you're just often left with yourself and you have to find your own degree of satisfaction with yourself with yourself because ah that that that stage, that confetti and the cameras and the fireworks as it's kind of an it's an illusion.
00:17:16
Speaker
Okay, yeah. All right, I buy that. So yeah you're talking about being celebrated, right? You're talking about how like, you know, when you sign the contract, suddenly everybody will come to you and maybe you won't have to do the work anymore, right? Maybe this this period of striving is over for you, right?
00:17:32
Speaker
So, okay, so that pings directly to to the question you asked me, which is like, what are some what are some things that I have found to kind of like get over that meh feeling, right? um One of the things I've done is to reconfigure the fireworks, right?
00:17:46
Speaker
The fireworks for me now are getting to have this thing off my desk so I get to work on something new. That's the firework. yeah That's the sort of like, okay, now I have clear space in my brain and I can kind of move on to to something else because we all know that there's like a bunch of ideas rattling around in our brains and we just have to do something about them because that's that's what keeps the writer's life going, right? Yeah.
00:18:08
Speaker
And then the other part of it um that that I i mentioned in the in the piece is this idea that I'm a big fan of celebrating my colleagues and my friends' accomplishments. um I take a lot of satisfaction in seeing the people around me win, right, and reach the goals and kind of like do the things that that that they have set out to do.
00:18:32
Speaker
um So I think those are kind of like the two, the do big things, right? Is like setting a different benchmark or maybe it's more accurate to say that like I'm reconfiguring the paradigm a little bit. What do the fireworks actually mean to me?
00:18:44
Speaker
And then that second part of it is is making sure that I keep my eyes open for things to celebrate about other people. um And also, dude, let's let's not overlook the craft of wallowing.
00:18:58
Speaker
I mean, you know, i I always remember that one scene from When Harry Met Sally, which is what, 25 years old this year? my gosh, terrifying.
00:19:09
Speaker
But it's that it's that one scene where she's sick and he calls her and he goes, have you ever just, you know, given yourself a really good like moan? Right. And then he goes, just try with me.
00:19:22
Speaker
Just try it with me. It feels really good, you know, and it really does. Like, it's fantastic to lie on the floor and feel miserable and just be like sad for a little bit. I mean, not talking about days, okay, or even hours, right? But like, it can be incredibly satisfying to just like wallow, you know, and eat a bag of potato chips, ah while you're watching reruns of The Good Place. Like, that's totally fine. You know, it's great.
00:19:45
Speaker
Well, it's great yeah, and you're getting to the point of celebrating others work that is ah extremely, extremely important. But ah Baked into this culture and this world and writers' head spaces by and large, well, maybe not by and large, but at some point or another, is a lot of jealousy and competition.
00:20:04
Speaker
And sometimes it can get it can be difficult to get to that celebratory mindset and beyond the scarcity mindset. So how how did you arrive at that? oh Okay, so there's another article that i that I wrote floating around specifically about this.
00:20:21
Speaker
um I think in large part it was it's it's fake it till you make it. if you If you just grin big enough, it it's going to be fine. Okay? But also... I think we tend to believe that someone else's success is going to somehow take away from our success. yeah ah And that's just silly pants.
00:20:41
Speaker
It doesn't make any sense, right? um I told you earlier that that I'm working with ah with a bunch of college students now in my in my job at a small liberal arts college. And they always worry that somebody is going to have the exact same project as they do, like when they're applying for Fulbright's or when they're applying for the Truman's, which is another another big fellowship that that's coming due very, very, ah very soon now.
00:21:04
Speaker
They always worry that somebody else is going to have the exact same goals. Right. And I always tell them that ah this idea of your life story being unique to you is super important in this regard, right? Like you need to look at yourself and realize that nobody has the exact same positionality you do.
00:21:22
Speaker
Nobody has the exact same set of experiences that you do. And so there is no need for you to be jealous because they're just not the same people, you know? I do, as I'm talking you about this now, I mean, I realize that it sounds awfully flippant of me to just like set it out there. Like it's so easy to do, right? It's kind of like when people say, oh, you just need to love yourself. And you're like, dude, do you have any idea how hard that is?
00:21:42
Speaker
ah
00:21:45
Speaker
Like, don't give me those dipshit platitudes, right? Like, give me that. It's hard to love yourself, just like we were talking about, you know, when when like, for me, the the fireworks are like getting to a point where I, you know, where where I'm content with my with my life, right? But I genuinely believe it is the lot of the writer to never, ever, ever be content. And I think that that's a beautiful thing, right? To always keep moving, to kind of like figure out like what the next project is and and be excited about it. Like you get to have another project that's really, really,
00:22:13
Speaker
freaking cool you know it's really really great also just fyi i'm trying really hard not to swear because oh you can swear all you want yeah okay but no no but i have to practice it you see because now i'm reading in children's sections of bookstores and that's like a oh yeah i need to be careful about that right and so i'm training myself there was a period where i would do five push-ups or every f-bomb and i got ripped really fast but like nothing really helped that anyhow So, you know, it is hard to get to a point where you can be automatically happy, right? But it's a beautiful thing when you get there.
00:22:48
Speaker
It's because it's so freeing. It's so freeing. And I really do think this is a case of like fake it till you make it. You know, just make that it's muscle memory, Brendan. It's muscle memory, right? It's like when somebody comes to you with good news and the automatic thing out of your mouth is habit and the habit becomes...
00:23:08
Speaker
I'm so excited for you. How can I help you celebrate? Then the automatic action after that becomes planning a celebration. And that's really, really cool. Oh, that's great. Yeah.
00:23:18
Speaker
The long time listeners of the show know that it was forged in the crucible of resentment and bitterness and jealousy. And it was my way of working through that and trying to celebrate the work of others when I was feeling so rotten about myself and my stance.
00:23:35
Speaker
And it's just that's where it came from was like, well, no one was knocking on my door to talk to me about the things I wasn't even writing. And I just was like, so I would see people like my age or younger at the time. And they just seem to be getting cover stories on outside magazine and everywhere, everywhere else. And I'm like, God, it's terrible. I'm like, God damn it. I'm like, how to how are how how are you doing this? And I wrote this cover story for like a regional magazine for like 500 bucks. And it took me six months to chase down the check.
00:24:04
Speaker
I'm like, how are people making a living doing doing this? And then like and it just feels so crappy. And then I articulated how crappy I felt and I felt really bad about it at the time. and I was like, you know, what I really need to ah change this energy and re redirect it because it was a fuel not burning clean.
00:24:22
Speaker
And ah as a result, that's where the show came from. I love the way you put that, that it's like there' there's clean pain, right? Psychologists refer to it as clean pain, right? and And some of that has to do with like the the moment that we're in right now. A lot of social workers also use that phrase. And I think the the person I first heard use it was a guy named Resmaa Menakin, who does a lot of work around inclusivity work.
00:24:44
Speaker
um And he talked about how like, when you feel bad about a thing, right, and then you move forward and do something with it, that's clean pain, right. But it's like, if you just let it foment, you know, and you're just like resentful all the time and just, you know, grumbling to yourself in the bathroom mirror, then, then that's not that's not real clean.
00:25:01
Speaker
Right. yeah So, you know, this idea of like turning that clean plane and into, to extend the metaphor, turning that clean pain into fuel and then watching it burn blue. Right. Like that's, that's kind of a I love that metaphor. I think that's a great way to put it. Like what, what can you do with this sort of like extra fuel that you've got?
00:25:19
Speaker
Right. Like what can you do with this extra energy that you're putting towards kind of being pissy about these things, you know? Yeah, exactly. And it was I started to view it as a community building thing being ah and and then I would hear over the years and you know I credit Donna Tallarico, who founded the Hippocamp ah Conference in Lancaster, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which is kind been on hiatus.
00:25:41
Speaker
Great conference when it was going on. But she talked about literary citizenship. And I think that was just such a an apt phrasing to be in this world. It's like it's not zero sum. And to just contribute to the milieu of what it is to be a writer, it's always changing. And you'll make no friends if you're just like bitter and angry and jealous all the time. It's just it's so silly. It's kind of natural. But once you can get it out of your system, bloodlet that out of your system, it just makes for a much more nourishing and enriching ah go of it.
00:26:16
Speaker
Yeah, and it's not just needing friends. So talk to me a little bit about about why you think we need friends in this business. Because I want to tap on something, and I'm just curious if we're if we're kind of tapping on the same thing. Well, I think it's like if I'm taking on work and be like, you know what? like ah Something came across my desk, and you're like I don't know if it's a ah perfect fit for me, but I know that Oh yeah, like Yishun, this is like right up her alley. Like why don't I like ah give this to her that came across like i it's not good for me, maybe it's good for her.
00:26:49
Speaker
And that way we're it's it paying something forward or paying something back depending if someone gave you a favor. So I think it's just kind of like that. It's thinking about other, other people as well and trying to lift people up, uh, you know, and rise, rise the tides as you, as it is. Yeah. I love that. That that's absolutely, um, that I think that's actually the beginning of, of, for me, it was the beginning of my journey.
00:27:10
Speaker
Um, I have a similar outside magazine story, actually a very good friend of mine who I've known since she was 13. Okay. okay Um, we, the short story is that I, I dated her, her older brother. Right. Okay. And so we became good friends. Like I became good friends with the whole family.
00:27:25
Speaker
Um, um She went on to become a journalist for Outside Magazine, like ah a cover cover magazine story writing, you know, journalist for Outside Magazine, and it was the job that I wanted. And I didn't know what to do with myself.
00:27:38
Speaker
I just did not. I was so...
Finding Niche and Inspiration
00:27:41
Speaker
I don't know, stymied. I was in a bog because of this odd resentment that I had towards this person who literally was my kid sister.
00:27:52
Speaker
Like that's there's something wrong with that. Right. OK. I mean, I was really stuck. Like, I mean, she was doing that. She was covering things that I thought I wanted to do and and doing the things that I thought that I thought I wanted to do. So two things happened in rapid succession. One, exactly what you said happened where I was approached by an editor um and and it was not the right story for me. And i I was like, I know the exact right person for it and I passed it on to her. okay So that was the beginning of like kind of an opening for me. Right. There's a little chink of sunlight that came through.
00:28:20
Speaker
And then the other part of it is that I realized that I'm not very good at reporting. I would be terrible at my friend's job, like really, really bad at it, okay? Which is why the space of memoir is so good for me and the space of creative nonfiction is better for me, right? Because it's about that sort of like ah figuring out what this event means to me or that event means to me, right?
00:28:42
Speaker
Now, do I miss the field of like getting to know people whose stories really deserve to be told? Yeah, absolutely. But I have other ways now that I can amplify those stories, right? I don't have to be a reporter for Outside Magazine or be a cover of magazine writer for The New york Times Magazine, right?
00:28:58
Speaker
The other part of of what you said to my in answer to my question or sorry, the other part of what I was asking this idea of like why we need friends in this business. For me, i draw regular inspiration from people who are not exactly working on the same things that I'm working on, but who still get to be separated, who still get to be celebrated by me. Right. Right.
00:29:18
Speaker
And it's that sort of like lateral thinking that you touched upon very early in our conversation, this idea of having work in different fields and being able to write in different fields. The the upshot of that is I've collected a lot of people who work in different fields and those folks really fill my creative cup.
00:29:36
Speaker
Right. um I'm not the kind of writer who's like, oh, I'm writing memoir. And so I can only read memoirs or I can only you know hang out with memoirs. Right. I'm exaggerating. There are very few people like this.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah. But I think there are people who who are like who's close, who are memoirs and whose closest friends therefore are memoirists. Right. And I have found that to not be not be useful for me. Right. I like that kind of cross pollination.
00:29:59
Speaker
And then the last part of what I'll say about about competition in this field is that it's something I um have learned to refine from working with college students. um A lot of my students are applying for the same high stakes, very hard to get fellowships.
00:30:13
Speaker
And what I immediately do for those students is I stick them in a writer's workshop group and I make them read each other's works. And I haven't, I think I would be lying to you if I if i told you that I had a really good bead on why this works, but I can tell you that each one of my students has felt better for A, letting go of the competition or the falsehood of competition,
00:30:38
Speaker
um you know, because of that uniqueness factor that I mentioned earlier in each of their positionality in each of their lives. But also they feel better for having worked with people who are aiming for the same things.
00:30:51
Speaker
The people who are aiming for the same things you are uniquely understand what needs to happen in order for your thing to work for that market or for that publication or for that fellowship or scholarship.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, and given your how much you've written about writing, like all the columns that you've did for Writer Magazine, ah and being really plugged into that ecosystem, you know, what have you found that writers crave the most?
00:31:19
Speaker
Community, dude. Everybody's lonely. yeah Everybody's lonely. They just don't, you know, they, I don't think, I don't think a lot of writers know how to admit that. Um, there's a maybe, maybe community and maybe also letting go of the fear of being, of having your idea poached.
00:31:36
Speaker
Right. So, okay. So that's, that's the, the nice squishy answer. But I still think that people crave that big publishing contract. you know I still think they sort of they they they crave that dream. I think it would be disingenuous of me to not admit that.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, right it's a status thing. Yeah, it's it's a status thing. And I think it's really odd, right? Because we just came past the season where everybody was doing their AWP panels, right?
00:32:05
Speaker
And everybody is kind of... Then there was the the Nonfiction Now panel panel call that came out, right? um And everybody wants to like... I don't know, be on stage at at these things and and tell people what they know. So maybe it's more accurate, Brendan, if we say that like maybe the thing that people crave the most aside from community is is the knowledge that somebody wants to hear what they have to say.
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really well put. and they like and And on top of that, in an age like ah toxically leveraged by social media, people want to post that they're on a panel that illustrates that people want to hear what they have to say.
00:32:48
Speaker
Oh, God, we're in a wormhole now. Right? Like, it's you see it all you you see it all the time. Like, who is this really serving? Like, I i do believe it's the ego in in so many ways.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so so then the question becomes for me, like, how do we exercise ourselves from that? Right? And and actually, does it make us better creators at the end of the day, if we can exercise ourselves from that?
00:33:16
Speaker
Oh, I think so. i think so. Yeah. ah You know, don't know. mean, think there is a part of it's like that that drive, I think, is super is super generative in a lot of ways. Right.
00:33:31
Speaker
But there there does come a pipping a tipping point where when it does become all about your ego and it stops becoming about you wanting to lift other people, for instance, who might also have a story to tell.
00:33:42
Speaker
but who haven't had a chance to tell that story, you I want to encourage people to to tell that story, right? yeah I want to encourage people to go out and and and and you know talk to others.
00:33:53
Speaker
ah Last week, actually, I was just in DC for the paperback book launch of my YA historical novel. um And i had to talk to a bunch of high schoolers. And I think it it needs to start at around middle middle school, high school
Encouraging Young Writers
00:34:06
Speaker
age, right? We're like, you can, you, we actually have, those of us who have publishing credits are in a position to, you know, step into these environments and say to people, it doesn't matter if somebody told you you couldn't write, you should be trying to write.
00:34:21
Speaker
Like, I mean, you should be trying to tell your story in some way, shape or form. what what did you What was that experience like ah meeting meeting with young readers and yeah what are the things that they they pepper you with?
00:34:35
Speaker
Well, you know the book is pegged to Ernest Shackleton's 1914 Antarctic Expedition. um you know Huge leadership story. ah So in part, they wanted to know about what it was like to go to Antarctica.
00:34:46
Speaker
And then they were really curious about what it's like to be a working writer. But I do have to tell you that it was very satisfying to tell a disruptive child to knock it off.
00:34:57
Speaker
And then when he did it again to say, I mean it, knock it off. Oh, that's terrible. I'm a terrible human being. um No, but really, at the end of the day, it was it was so interesting to me to see that that they didn't really know that this could be a living. right They didn't understand how to how to how to make that happen. right And if I had more than an hour with them, how I think I would really like to tell them about like the the math behind what this is like to make this kind of thing a living for you.
00:35:26
Speaker
right like What is it like to to to make words your living in some way, shape or form? And I do also have to say that from a very early from a very early stage in my career, like I became aware that because words touch everything, like I said earlier,
00:35:41
Speaker
It becomes much easier to understand that whatever you're doing with words, if you remotely touch them, you should count that as a part of your creative life. like We need to be a little bit more generous with ourselves when it comes to what it means to quote unquote be a working writer.
00:35:56
Speaker
Right. If you're writing marketing copy that counts. If you're teaching in this field that counts. I mean if you're teaching period that counts, right? Yeah. If you're working on a literary magazine for peanuts that might not count in the bank, but it counts, right?
00:36:12
Speaker
All of those energies that we put forward that all, that all counts. Yeah, I love that you brought up the yeah the the math the math component, like figuring out the the math of it. And I think it's in that figuring it out where a lot of people just burn out or they get they just get sidetracked or bitter um or tired.
00:36:33
Speaker
and i What do you think that burnout is about? Sorry. Speaking from the experience I had when I was just churning through stuff, like i I would write these slideshows for Bleacher Report.
00:36:44
Speaker
um It would be like winners and winners and losers from the Daytona 500 or something. like And I would be you know i'd be sitting on the couch for six hours and yeah having to watch a race and then write these slideshows that ah eventually amount to probably about a thousand-word column.
00:37:02
Speaker
And i'd don't yeah I'd be getting like... 60 bucks or something for that whole day. And it was like, hey yeah and and so it's just, you're spending an entire day doing that kind of stuff.
00:37:14
Speaker
yeah And then maybe I'd lock up another feature somewhere else. It was a lot of, a lot of writing for very little money that I was just churning, churning through and then comparing myself to others who I thought like my heroes, they weren't doing this shit, you know? And it's yeah and then just feeling crappy about ah myself. And it would like, hey, i went to I went to college. I have MFA. you know I have a book under my belt. And here I am doing these slideshows for 50 or 60 bucks. It's like yeah that's what it was.
00:37:47
Speaker
It was really upsetting. And then chasing down very small paychecks that would take months. i'm like, how do people make a living doing this? and I'm chasing people $500 and then you got pay half of that in self-employment taxes anyway because you're a freelancer.
00:38:02
Speaker
yeah These are the things you just kind of learn through osmosis along the way, but no one really tells you. And it just like totally, I can see how many people would want to take an off-ramp. And I looked for many off-ramps along the way and um and just could never fully pull off the freeway.
00:38:20
Speaker
and it it was But it was awfully seductive to yeah to to pull off the freeway and do something else. but okay So tell me about the freeway, though, because okay you said you looked for a number a number of off ramps and you found a couple of off ramps, right?
00:38:35
Speaker
But you could never actually like get off, right? so So what was it that that prevented you from getting off and what did your off ramps look like? It was so it would usually be.
00:38:47
Speaker
So one time a few years ago, I i took a job in a working in a wine cellar, like in like with winemakers at a vineyard. And I was like, yeah, maybe I'll just get into like maybe I'll just get into the wine business and just be done with this writing thing.
00:39:02
Speaker
ah But ah but it always nagged at my head. Like I would never be able to forgive myself if I gave up. Yeah. I just know that in my heart. Okay, so this is interesting, you know, because the idea of quote unquote giving up, I think has nuances to it, right? There there are scales of giving up, right? Yeah. um I...
00:39:21
Speaker
I am surprised to hear that like the the off ramp does feel very far removed from writing. I kind of suspected that you might say something along the lines of, oh, you know, I thought I would teach or maybe I went into like writing coaching or I don't know, something like that. Right.
00:39:34
Speaker
My off ramps weren't really off ramps. Right. They were they were always things that were related to the written word in some way, shape or form. Right. um And I suspect that if you had off ramped fully, you would still be spending eight hours after you got off of work, banging a away your keyboard, writing a story in some way, shape or form.
00:39:54
Speaker
Right. Yeah, it would because it never leaves us. It never, ever, ever leaves us.
Efficiency and Transparency in Writing
00:39:59
Speaker
But I do think that this idea of burnout is is an interesting one. A couple of years ago, i started engaging with a system that just sounded so bro-y. Sorry. um i started using I started using a system called um Building a Second Brain.
00:40:15
Speaker
which is by a guy named Tiago Forte. And what that did for me, the the whole theory is you never start a project that's that that isn't already 50% done. okay um That's not laziness. That's me acknowledging the fact that somewhere in my brain, there is the germination of an idea. And I've probably followed the wormhole far enough that I've already amassed a bunch of research or readings or notes about this project. So I need to pull the trigger on that thing first.
00:40:44
Speaker
Right. So it's like, you know, this idea of like, OK, you know, you're spending 10 hours watching an event and taking notes upon it and then like, you know, banging out a thousand words of writing.
00:40:56
Speaker
What happened to me was I started. Notating the things that I was already noodling about. And then my time outlay became rapidly smaller for those projects.
00:41:10
Speaker
Right. So the other way to look at it is like basically writing, writing the low hanging fruit. Right. Like what am I already thinking about that is taking up space in my brain that I can turn around Not quickly, per se, okay?
00:41:24
Speaker
um And not without effort, certainly. But like, you know, we talked before about the fireworks, right? And re-gauging the fireworks. This is like, oh, I get to take this off my desk now. I've been thinking about it for so long. Now I finally get to give it a body, right?
00:41:37
Speaker
I get to actually like articulate it and take time with it as opposed to it being rattling around in my computer someplace and in my files as a bunch of loose notes, right?
00:41:47
Speaker
right And that that gratitude, coupled with the relief of getting that idea out there and done, i think changed my workload diametrically. Yeah, that's really wise.
00:41:59
Speaker
And I found over the years too, that there are, there's a lot of writing that people don't tweet about and like the, the content marketing stuff or that, the contract stuff that pays really well, but maybe some, some people who have, they just don't talk about it.
00:42:15
Speaker
It's like, yeah. And I think there's a lot of that going on behind the scenes that people aren't transparent about. And that's like, Yeah. How was like so-and-so like writing this, like two features for the New Yorker, they seem to be crushing it.
00:42:28
Speaker
And it's like, yeah oh okay. But you also ghostwrite stuff and you have content marketing gig over here, a ghostwriting gig. And it's just, okay, now I see. um yeah. So why do you, why do you, I'm sorry, Brennan, I keep on stepping on you, but I have questions.
00:42:43
Speaker
Um, why, why do think people aren't talking about those things? i it's not glamorous, yeah you know and I think it goes back to status. and it it is I see this a lot with people who, you you know when you talk about status, I see this, so this little podcast, is you know it's its thing, it's been going for a long time, and it's a but it's a very niche-y, and I'm not famous, I'm not Terry Gross, and or fill-in-the-blank Rich Roll, or whoever.
00:43:14
Speaker
um And I notice when I have people who have might be on my show, and but then they they maybe they do show up on terry on Fresh Air or they show up on Rich Roll, and they'll promote that appearance, but they don't promote mine.
00:43:30
Speaker
And and so you see it and I'm like, I'm fine with it. I've metabolized it in a way. It's frustrating. ah But I see the status ballet and it's like, OK, promoting that elevates your status to a point. and And like we were talking about earlier. And and then then maybe if you the people of that nature, if they promote me, they feel like maybe it's elevating my status, and not theirs.
00:43:53
Speaker
And so it's like this, this dance. And I think with the writing of the content marketing, people are, think, mercenary work. It does it. It doesn't elevate their status. So they just kind of this makes the money.
00:44:06
Speaker
This subsidizes the thing that I really do tweet about that makes it look like I'm, you know, maybe a bit more established in a in a different arena or I want to be known for that. But I'm going to hide this stuff over here.
00:44:20
Speaker
Wow. Okay. Yeah, that sucks. i Like I, you know, I just, I, and granted, like, I mean, there's not that much to tweet about when you're like, What are you going to say? Like, hey, Facebook fam, go look at my copy for a Honeywell Air Conditioning Company. Like, no, you're not going to do that, right? yeah but But I still think there needs to be a level of transparency. Like, we should be proud of the fact that we're hustling. yeah You know, we should be we should be excited by it. So I'm super Pollyanna. It's really embarrassing. But, you know, it's it's the way I've chosen to live my life. So...
00:44:51
Speaker
There you have it. Well, yeah, no, it's great. And it's great to hear you. and Something that, you know, when you're talking about the fireworks earlier, and i love this idea of just being able, like the win is being able to keep playing the game and to keep staying on the field.
00:45:05
Speaker
You know, like that's the win. Yeah. You know, that that's the fireworks. And that's what i really love hearing you articulate, too. It's just like I get to, you know, give this piece of writing a body And then I can move on to something else. And like that is the win to keep going and creatively chain smoke projects.
00:45:22
Speaker
Yeah. Mind you, it's easy to say now that I have, you know, full time, cushy academic job with, you know, great benefits. Right. I mean, that's you've earned it. It took you a long time, but but that's the patience to stay in the game. And it's ah yeah, it's to a credit to your rigor and your in perseverance to get to that point.
00:45:43
Speaker
Maybe. mean, it's one of like i I was not looking for this job. It like it kind of came and found me. Right. um And I had to give up some things that I that I do love in order to take it. And so I've stumbled into this field and it's this very bizarre kind of circumstance where I also am now teaching a class on creative writing for this college.
00:45:59
Speaker
um And I unexpectedly love working with undergraduates. It's so weird. It's so weird. So it's kind of like, i do feel a little bit like it's unearned. I say that very hesitantly because as I'm thinking about your comment, it occurs to me that they would not have cherry picked me for this job if I if i didn't you know have all of the other things under my belt right yeah that I have been working on. Right.
00:46:23
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, there there is a certain sense of earning, but there is also a ah very keen sense of the fact that I am giving up time, right?
Balancing Roles and Self-Care
00:46:31
Speaker
Like I'm sitting on top of a romantic comedy right now that I really, really, really want to write. it's It's another historical thing where it's it's pegged to the Island of the Blue Dolphins, which is about a woman who was marooned on a desert island for 18 years. It's true story.
00:46:44
Speaker
um and i want to get into the research for that and and and play with it right but because i have all these other things going on i i don't have brain space right now you know so i'm i'm keenly aware of of what i'm giving up and i'm i think i'm still trying to figure out a way to make sure that that creative writing and all those essays that that i'm sitting on top of you know in my in my bank of ideas eventually do happen again and i would like to have them make them happen in short order Right.
00:47:12
Speaker
um I'm sitting on top of an essay about this crazy, really cheesy drama called Heart of Dixie that that that I really want to I really want to write, you know, and I just I can't find the time to do it.
00:47:24
Speaker
Right. So it's a trade off in every different way How have you learned to be ah kind to yourself when you don't have the brain space and the time to attack the projects that are you know in the in the hopper?
00:47:38
Speaker
How have I learned to be kind to myself? Huh?
00:47:46
Speaker
Hmm. Um, and if you haven't, well, that's, that's fine too. As someone who's that notorious shit kicker of myself, that's, uh, know, you know, Brandon, I think what's happening is when you are so busy and, and granted, I'm coming off a very, of a very very weird period right now. We're like, uh, a couple weeks ago I was in Mexico rock climbing and the workload was so bad that like I would climb from nine till three go back to you know to to the hotel we were staying, have a beer, talk to my friends for an hour, and then go right back to like the fellowship's job. right So I was like crammed into my bunk typing at things while people were reliving their sins from that day.
00:48:24
Speaker
um So I think I haven't been very kind to myself lately, um but I do think that it is about having the faith that because I have written these ideas down someplace,
00:48:35
Speaker
At least there is progress being made. But that's not actually being kind to myself, right? The being kind to myself probably is the booking the rock climbing trip, even though I know I have these things happening, right? I think it's a physicality thing.
00:48:49
Speaker
i think it is carving out time to watch the most recent episodes of Shrinking. Have you been watching, by the way? Oh. I haven't. I don't have, know, we don't have any real streaming services and everything is so, ok so bifurcated and splintered. We just yeah can't watch anything.
00:49:06
Speaker
That's, that's completely okay. All right. But like, you know, the, the, the time that I spend with my husband is one of those things that like has to be sacred, right? Like I can't, I can't not walk the dog with him. I can't not carve out time for exercise.
00:49:20
Speaker
I also, my parents live a mile up the old and up the road and they're quite, they're quite elderly. So like I need to carve out time for that. Right. So I think maybe i think i'm maybe I'm still in a period of trying to figure out what that actually means. like Does being kind to myself mean taking care of my community first? or does it mean getting eight nights you know eight hours of sleep?
00:49:38
Speaker
Does it mean... eating? I don't know. i don't know. Or, or does it just mean like establishing, um busyness enough so that I don't have to think about the fact that I'm not self caring. I don't know. It's not going well.
00:49:51
Speaker
And it could be, it it evolves over time too. you know, whatever, whatever grace or mercy you share, you share with yourself five years ago versus today. It's, i hope so it's got to evolve from this. Cause I, this is, this is not going well. It's not going well. Yeah.
00:50:08
Speaker
well In your teaching of of undergrads, these people who are really at the at the start of something you know and they've got that ah the youthful energy or they just like they're like, this looks cool. I i want to maybe pursue a ah career in words. you know What is some ah advice that you share with them, be it hard one or something you've heard from maybe a cherished mentor yourself?
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah, I tell them, this I got from, um i was taking one of those like mass online learning courses from from an artist. I do some watercolor in my spare time. I like to draw.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah, and um and ah he said, it was it was an assignment to like to like sit down and draw for 20 minutes every day for like a week straight. okay And he said, you should start every session by, quote unquote, making the marks you like to make.
00:50:54
Speaker
And this was revolutionary to me. Revolutionary, because in writing, we talk about woodshedding the stuff that we're bad at. Right. When we workshop, we have our work torn apart, which, by the way, is another thing I'm working on. Like we you know, this this idea of of this kind of workshopping.
00:51:09
Speaker
Matthew Celeste started the work towards a more you know kinder workshop model. And then Felicia Rose Chavez wrote that great book on you know the anti-racist writing workshop. Right. And it's like yeah it's this concept of of of workshopping or woodshedding being a thing that should hurt has to go away. Right.
00:51:26
Speaker
So this idea of making the marks you like to make, what the artist meant was like, if you're good at drawing lines, then do that, right? If you make very precise circles, then do that. Like start by doing a thing that kind of like makes you feel like you are competent, okay?
00:51:40
Speaker
I'm 50 now, right? Since the age of 35, all I have done is strive for competence. okay I mean, i I grew up in a household where like if you weren't a A plus best at everything, you were just it was pointless for you to try. You might as well lie down and moan all the time, which as we know by now, I do on a regular basis. okay but But competence is a beautiful, beautiful thing. right like If you're good enough to be competent at something, that means that you have to to underscore the point that you made earlier, you have the endurance to keep on doing it and keep on staying in the game.
00:52:10
Speaker
right When you make the make the marks you like to make, in my case, it's puppy ears. I guess they could be pig ears too, but whatever. Okay. Like I draw ears. Okay. um if If you can do that and you can feel confident in it, then when you go to make something really creative,
00:52:26
Speaker
Then you have that extra bank of confidence that you can build on. Right. Then it's like, hey, look at those puppy ears I drew. Those are really, really good. Maybe I'll write some dialogue. Right. In the case of writing, i happen to be really good at dialogue. I like it a lot. Yeah. okay So I start a writing project by recounting a dialogue that I've heard. okay And then I move on to something that might be a little bit harder.
00:52:46
Speaker
So yeah, make the markets that you like to make. I mean, I think that's a really critical thing. Also, and we've talked about this a lot, but like, I think we mustn't ever forget that writing is a business. Okay. And that the people who publish are running businesses, right? um You know, my publisher is not out.
00:53:02
Speaker
to necessarily, like their remit, as they see it, is to make money, right? It is not to, oh, let's give Ishan a platform so she can talk about how unfair it was that suffragists didn't get to go on Antarctic expeditions. like Like,
00:53:17
Speaker
Like said, nobody cares about that. Right. You know, like what they want to do is make money. Okay. Publishing by the way, the only business in the world in which you can be 98% wrong every year and still come back to make a business.
00:53:29
Speaker
Right. Okay. and So, so yeah, you know, so, you know, this idea that like, Writing as a business and publishing as a business, I think, is a thing that that we have to keep on we have to keep on talking about. like You and I have to keep on talking about our advances. you know We have to keep on talking about the math behind what it means to earn out right and and how much money we're we're making and and how we're doing it and why it is. right But then again, of course, everybody has their own kind of benchmark, right? Like if you're not comfortable talking about money, then don't do it.
00:53:56
Speaker
Yeah. um Commensurate with um with my East Asian upbringing um of like, if you're not A+, plus then then why bother, right? yeah ah Was also like, if you have to talk about money, then you are not making money enough of it.
00:54:11
Speaker
And that's just bananas, right? Like we have to talk about money because we live in a capitalist society. I don't know if anybody else has figured that out. know. Right? ah Right. You know, we got it. We got to talk about these things. It's so important. It's so important.
00:54:25
Speaker
Oh, for sure. and ah And and you, Sean, is I love to bring these conversations down for a landing. And i feel like I could talk to you for hours. This is wonderful. um ah Love, love ah love hearing your insights and how you've ah ah you've gone about your career to
Curiosity and Nature
00:54:40
Speaker
date. But I love bringing these conversations down for landing by asking a recommendation ah for the listeners of any kind. And it's just whatever you're excited about. So I would extend that to you.
00:54:50
Speaker
I am super excited about anglerfish and spiders. I don't know. It's like okay. They're they're not related to each other, right? But i this i have you seen most recently this this story about this poor anglerfish, which they live in the depths of the ocean, right? Okay.
00:55:07
Speaker
And they're not meant to be anywhere near the upper strata, but there was an anglerfish. For those of you who don't know, an anglerfish is a, um it is the ugliest creature you'll ever see. It has a vast underbite, okay, and a little lantern that comes out from the top of its head to ensnare other fishies or other creatures to come near it. And then when it comes near, it opens its mouth and eats the thing, okay?
00:55:29
Speaker
It's super ugly. um But it is a wonderful, wonderful creature of the Earth, or of the sea. um And I'm fascinated by them. I think they're i think they're wonderful. And I think they're they're joyful and and fabulous and represent a level of mystery that that I don't really understand yet.
00:55:44
Speaker
um The thing I said about spiders, I'm on a minor mission to make everybody else love spiders. i think that maybe we don't give them enough credit because they're just awesome, awesome creatures.
00:55:56
Speaker
And I know in the past some people have given ah book recommendations, so I will peg to you a book that's called The Eight-Legged Wonder that ah is a ah small, modest volume about spiders that I think people will really, really enjoy.
00:56:08
Speaker
That's great. That's great. And I hope you make some watercolors of the anglerfish or something. Yeah. I will be sure to pass them on to you. Absolutely. Fun fact. Did you know that all of the anglerfish that have like the little lanterns on their heads, those are, those are female anglerfish. Okay.
00:56:26
Speaker
And the males are tiny little ones that cling to the underside of the female underfish and just go along for the ride. Hmm. and Check that out. Should we write about that? we write a little essay about that. think so. I think there's a braided essay in there somewhere.
00:56:42
Speaker
Somewhere, somewhere, I'm sure. Brendan, this has been such a delight. You pitched this to me as being, you know, two writers getting together over coffee and and having a chat. And as you say, it could have gone on forever. I am so pleased to have made your acquaintance and are really honored that you asked me to be on this podcast. Thank you so much. Oh, you're so welcome. Yeah, just thank thank you for your time and coming to play ball. This was a ton of fun.
00:57:04
Speaker
Great.
00:57:08
Speaker
Pretty great, right? Yes. Thanks to Gishan. She's one of the rare guests who engaged more in a back and forth with me, which I won't lie, always makes me mildly uncomfortable. I'm aware of what I consider my golden ratio of hosting this podcast, which means i only take up about 15% of the conversation airtime to the guest 85%. This ratio will skew when I've had someone on the show multiple times and we both might be working through some shit, but Yishan threw it back at me a few times.
00:57:43
Speaker
mean, that was fun. And that was, according to my otter transcript, a seventy thirty split, so it's a bit high. Now and it's the parting shot where you get your full dose of my medicine.
00:57:57
Speaker
I'm always mildly apprehensive or tentative to talk about my untenable dog situation because my grouchy and bitter disposition already has led to flattering comparisons to Marc Maron, who I love.
00:58:10
Speaker
He has long had his cat situation and I've long had my dog situation.
00:58:17
Speaker
So if I talk about my dogs, people are like the are like likely more apt to think I'm copying him. You know, fact is my cranky disposition developed on its own, independent of Mark.
00:58:29
Speaker
ah But when people or when someone famous acts a certain way and then a scrub like me acts similarly, people will think I'm the one plagiarizing or mimicking that personality or a form That's why long ago, at least, in a try-to-break form somewhat, I moved these rants of mine to the end of the show more as an after-dinner mint than an appetizer.
00:58:52
Speaker
What a guy. Okay, so a week ago, I let the elders out for their final bathroom break. It was dark out, and Hank, who has a pretty insane prey drive, I'm locked into a scent in the toileting area.
00:59:07
Speaker
You know, turned away to look at Kevin, who was piss-potting around, and then I saw Hank pounce on something, taking an entire animal in his mouth, and he began shaking violently and clamping down, like, chewing on this fucking thing.
00:59:21
Speaker
yeah I started screaming at him. I was banging on a recycling bin to snap him out of this trance, this fixation. I was in my socks and being the courageous hero I am, didn't want to potentially step in dog shit to try and break Hank away from whatever he was mauling. You know, my poor neighbors, it was like screaming bloody murder.
00:59:41
Speaker
They already hear me yell enough at Lachlan. Not as much as in the past, but they've the neighborhood is well aware of my my pipes. Listen, it's been a rough two years with these three dogs.
00:59:54
Speaker
Anyway, from about 15 feet away, it looked like Hank had a rat in his mouth. and He finally dropped it at my urging and drooled, pouring out of his face like a faucet. He finally slunked away or cowered away from me.
01:00:08
Speaker
I walked over to the crime scene, and it was this young possum. and I'll just use he pronouns just because it's simple for me. ah so He was all you know bloodied up, not like mangled, but he was he was laying on his back, and his tail gave a few slow wags and then went still.
01:00:28
Speaker
His mouth was open. His eyes were closed. His paws were tucked up on his chest. I thought maybe he was playing dead. His entire body was in Hank's mouth as Hank unleashed the fury on this poor little critter who was just trying to get away from him.
01:00:43
Speaker
You know, figured I'll check in the morning, and maybe this little guy will have gotten up and moved to safety. Traumatized, maybe injured, but alive and on the mend.
01:00:55
Speaker
In the meantime, Melanie and I would just berate Hank. yeah Maybe that's not cool to scold a dog whose instinct clearly is to fucking kill things. I don't know if that's a Catahoula thing or what it might be or if dogs are just like that.
01:01:10
Speaker
yeah Hank had a little cut on his gums, but it was otherwise unharmed by whatever meager self-defense this possum put up. Hank usually sleeps in our bed with us, and and Kevin on the floor, Lachlan in another room, because he and Hank, surprise, can't be near each other, because, surprise, Hank wants to kill him.
01:01:27
Speaker
Hank slept on the floor as a result of that behavior. in the morning, there was the little possum.
01:01:38
Speaker
Clearly dead at this point, with his mouth agape and the pinkish hue of blood on his chest. It was really fucking sad. This little guy was just living his little possum life, posing no threat to anyone.
01:01:49
Speaker
Then I got a shovel and scooped him up and placed him under our giant Douglas fir to let nature take its course. Give him back to the earth, or to the crows, or to a passing turkey vulture.
01:02:01
Speaker
It really ripped my heart out. like Against the odds, this little critter made it independence, and he met his end by, you know, not a coyote, but a 10- or 11-year-old domesticated catahoula of all things that has no dietary need to kill such a thing.
01:02:19
Speaker
We named the little possum Fairway Frank after the possum featured in Season 2 of Parks and Rec.
01:02:26
Speaker
I look at Hank and I want him to feel some remorse, but come the next morning, all he was doing was wagging his tail as if he had no memory of it. But he had a memory of it. He went straight to the scene of the crime for his morning bathroom break.
01:02:38
Speaker
yeah We've slowly come back around to being cordial to Hank as if that does anything, as if that message really sinks in, like we can shame him into feeling bad about what he did.
01:02:50
Speaker
Now he's not allowed to be unleashed for bathroom breaks at night because we don't want him killing other nocturnal nocturnal animals or or maybe running into a raccoon. He did chase a raccoon one point, and raccoon could really fuck him up.
01:03:04
Speaker
Give him rabies. Who knows? We have given him free reign on cats that piss all over our shit. Have at it, Hank.
01:03:14
Speaker
Stay wild. See you, Effers. And if you can't do, interview. Rest in peace, Fairway Frank. See ya.