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Episode 471: The Cassidy Randall Residency at CNF Pod Continues!
458 Plays19 days ago
"We are sort of drinking from a fire hose of content right now. And it makes me wonder, because I feel like I'm stuck on this wheel that I have to produce all the time. Do I even want to write for money anymore? I don't know," says Cassidy Randall, author of the book Thirty Below, and back for her second Atavist story "The Longest Journey."
Writing is in her bones, so she's not quitting, but the freelance production wheel is tough.
We talk about:
- The productivity wheel
- Earning trust for stories
- Constructing a headline and subhead to focus a story
- And how best to immerse readers in a story
Learn more about Cassidy at cassidyrandall.com and @cassidyrandall on Instagram.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Achievement Highlights
00:00:00
Speaker
ACNFers, the frontrunner, you might have heard of it, is officially out. I like to think I don't ask for much, but now's the time to buy a copy or three. And if you read it, you know the drill. We need ratings and reviews.
00:00:12
Speaker
I won't read them on the big A because I don't want to be driven insane by the insane ones. ah But that's the world we live in. Ratings and reviews. Be it for the book, even the podcast.
00:00:25
Speaker
Your call to action to support the book and me in ye olde CNF pod. Oh, and hey, since this is an Atavist pod, you need to know that the Atavist just won a national fucking magazine award for running a tour and Iman Mohammed's coming to America about Leon, the Palestinian teenager who had her legs amputated and comes to America to be fitted for prosthetics as a result of the bombings, these genocidal attacks on Gaza.
00:00:57
Speaker
Congratulations for that important and beautifully rendered story. Goosebumps for them. Seriously. Well, I was, I have to admit that I was multitasking while we were talking. I went and looked on your Instagram to find where I could share that your book came out today and you haven't
Creative Nonfiction Podcast Overview
00:01:11
Speaker
even posted. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta get on that.
00:01:20
Speaker
ah tell you seeing I heard the news this week. The news that Marc Maron is sunsetting WTF this fall. I feel a bit gutted. There's a special bond that forms between a podcast host and their audience, even when it feels very one-sided.
00:01:35
Speaker
It's the nature of it. you you'rere You're receiving it on one end, and I'm just talking in this end. ah get it. I know he and his producer are ready for it to end. 16 years, two pods a week.
00:01:49
Speaker
But man, it's like losing a friend. This the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to primarily writers about the art and craft of telling two stories. Tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell.
Lena Rowat's Story and Personal Struggles
00:02:00
Speaker
I'm your chronically injured host, Brendan O'Meara. These risks, physically and emotionally, I should say. Today we welcome back Cassidy Randall. And you might be saying, what the fuck, PO? Why don't you spread the wealth?
00:02:13
Speaker
And I'm like, shut up. Just as likely to tell you to suck on a lemon. Cassidy's back because she's got a new Atavis feature, so spoilers. The piece is already live at magazine.atavis.com. The National Magazine Award-winning publication...
00:02:30
Speaker
It's called The Longest Journey. Lena Rowat skied 1,600 grueling miles across the coast range to quiet her demons. But she didn't begin to silence them until tragedy struck.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah. Show notes to this episode and more. They're big, man. Big. At BrendanOmero.com. Hey, hey. Since sunsetting the pod stack. I moved all that goodness over to the show notes, my favorite quotes, a mostly accurate link to the transcript that you can download for free, the text of the parting shot, and links to the backlog of 400, 300, 200, and 100 episodes ago.
00:03:06
Speaker
We're coming up on what will be 500, 400, 300, 200, 100. four hundred three hundred two hundred one hundred Crazy. There, sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. Been doing it forever.
00:03:17
Speaker
People who dig it really dig it, just like this podcast. First of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. You can also consider Patreon. We've lost a few.
00:03:27
Speaker
We're hemorrhaging a few. And if you think all this effort is worth a few bucks, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod. Hey, and I also want to share what's been pretty popular so
Engaging Writers and Listeners
00:03:40
Speaker
far in its first week of existence.
00:03:42
Speaker
It's called Pitch Club. It's at welcometopitchclub.substack.com. And I have a writer, Audio Annotated Pitch. I think this has a chance to be pretty special. It's not going to take over the world.
00:03:54
Speaker
But I've gotten the most subscriptions to this kind of thing right off the bat than I've ever had, I think. Why? It's tactical and it's practical. It's going to help you get where you want to go.
00:04:05
Speaker
Nick Davidson is the first featured writer and pitcher. So go check it out. It's pretty special. And we got a new review for the pod, and I always like to read them when they publish. So if you submit a review, I will read it right here.
00:04:20
Speaker
And here's one from, it looks like someone just danced their fingers over the keyboard, but I'm going to read it anyway because I'm a pro. It is by, all lowercase letters, Fuck.
00:04:38
Speaker
All right, five stars. I love this podcast so much. As an aspiring author myself, having access to a constant stream and massive archive of talented writers talking through how they made their sausage.
00:04:50
Speaker
And all the ups and downs in the process is extremely valuable and inspiring. Brendan is doing great work here. Thank you very much. You are doing some great listening. We are about to hear from lead editor Jonah Ogles about his side of the table and Alt Riff a little more about Cassidy during the bridge.
00:05:11
Speaker
Will there be a potting shot? I don't know. Haven't decided yet. Atavis pods tend to run long. You'll just have to stay tuned.
Freelancing and Creative Challenges
00:05:20
Speaker
Cue the montage riff. Wait a minute.
00:05:22
Speaker
One more thing. I forgot to turn on my recorder on my side of the table during my chat with Jonah. So what captured my audio was the laptop mic, and it's not good.
00:05:37
Speaker
It's not good, man. But the rest of the show is fine. It's just fine. It's better than fine. Riff.
00:05:53
Speaker
Does everyone know I'm a fucking genius? Thank you, everybody. Remember what Brendan said. got it because we're sadistic motherfuckers. Go lemurs. is This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's an easier process, you know, they know deal, the deal um they know they they you have sort of like your own shorthand that you developed the first time around.
00:06:33
Speaker
And so it just makes it, it's like more fun, less work, I guess, to, to work with somebody a second time. Cause you, you have like your rapport, you know, and Cassidy is so great and easy to work with and just like good at what she does that like, it it was just a very smooth experience to, to bring this story to publication.
00:06:56
Speaker
Yeah. And ah given that Cassidy is a repeat ah repeat writer for Atavist, what was the the nature of her pitch for this story, maybe versus the first time she was came in through the through the doors?
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you pay, you know, you do pay closer attention to, to pitches you get from writers you've worked with before, you know, especially when, when it's someone like Cassidy that you enjoy working with and, and, you know, they're really good at what they do.
00:07:29
Speaker
So, you know, I, I think that there's a real value there to like maintaining relationships with editors and, You know, continuing to once you're in the door with the publication looking for other stories that might fit for them, because I think that relationship only gets deeper and better. And I and I hope that the
Mental Health in Mountaineering
00:07:50
Speaker
stories actually get better as a result of that, too.
00:07:54
Speaker
So when it came in we were we were you know we wanted to give it a very close look. And in this case, Cassidy and I talked a little bit about this just as the story was wrapping up. you know it's it's There are some similar themes between the two stories she's published for us, women doing pretty remarkable, amazing feats.
00:08:17
Speaker
But the first story but about the woman who was trying to sail solo around the world that had, you know, that was a pretty easy one to tell because of the plot.
00:08:28
Speaker
You know, when you have a great plot, stories just unfold. and And by that, I should clarify, like a plot with a lot of external action. And in this story is much more like, yes, there's this incredible ski traverse over like 1600 miles, which is insane. Like the the equivalent of like going up and down Everest 18 times and running 50 marathons or something like that.
00:08:55
Speaker
So like, yes, that is there. But the the real hook for this story, and that I think the reason that Cassidy wanted to tell it was that Lena Rowett, the character and who organized or went on this this big traverse,
00:09:11
Speaker
had struggle was struggling with depression, like crippling depression and, um you know, an inability to just maintain a daily schedule and accomplish daily tasks.
00:09:25
Speaker
And so she wanted to explore like, okay, here here's this person who's extremely capable in in the outdoor world. but internally really struggling and and those you know those are tough stories to tell when we get pitches where the the struggle is internal the plot the you know the the main action points in the plot are inside someone's mind either they're dealing with
00:09:56
Speaker
grief or depression or any number of other things. you As an editor, you stop and you and you think hard about that because that's a very, very difficult thing to do. You know you need you need a writer who is capable of like getting a source to open up, and some sources are better at that than others, you know to better able to describe
Crafting Compelling Narratives
00:10:20
Speaker
what was going on inside their own head.
00:10:23
Speaker
then the writer has to be able to translate that onto the page. and And both of those things are very difficult to do. So, you know, i I think for first time writers, we're a little hesitant and we kind of press on that. We ask questions,
00:10:39
Speaker
You know, tough tell us about the source, you know, like, are they easy to talk to or are they very open? Are they open to you prying? you know, if you if you say like, hey, you said that was really tough for you, but what do you, what does that actually mean? What does that look like inside your head? You know, what are you thinking?
00:11:00
Speaker
so we ask about that and and then we're also paying attention to how they translate that in their responses and and how compelling and how inside that person's head their risk the writer's response makes us feel as as readers and editors in cassidy's case she is like the the both of these stories so much of the writing reads as if you're inside the person's head. Like that.
00:11:27
Speaker
I don't know if that's Cassidy's preferred way of writing. It wouldn't surprise me if it is because she's very good at it and, and it seems to come easily to her. Maybe it doesn't, but I knew from the first story that she could do that.
00:11:41
Speaker
And so when when this when this pitch came in like, yes, we we went back and forth a little bit about it to just to make sure we we were all on the same page and understood how the story would unfold. But we knew that that internal struggle was something that, like,
00:11:58
Speaker
Honestly, I still think of it as a risk every time because because there's no guarantee that the the source will be as helpful as we want or the writer will be as is capable in that particular instance.
00:12:11
Speaker
you know we we felt much We felt much more confident that that the piece would succeed in doing that. Yeah, since Cassidy is very capable in that regard and you've worked with her in the past, there is that chance, like you said, to...
00:12:28
Speaker
take a story and level up in a way that maybe you don't necessarily do with a, with a first um for somebody's first attempt. So when when the story comes across and you're working and you're looking to make it in its best possible shape, you know, in what ways did you as the editor challenge Cassidy to take it farther?
00:12:48
Speaker
You know, I, I think the, the main thing in in her most recent story was finding, kind of finding the balance between the two, between the internal struggle and the external struggle, particularly in the in the latter half of the piece. you know they They complete the ski traverse somewhat early in the in the story, I would guess maybe around the halfway point.
00:13:17
Speaker
the the big expedition is is over. And then it's kind of a love story, you know? And and i think we, it it wasn't really difficult, to be honest. that There were some things I did in the first edit, just moving things around and and ah just a little bit, not like an overhaul or anything. But Moving some things, condensing some things, really drawing out certain aspects of it. You know, Lena's relationship with her family was complicated and has changed over the years.
00:13:56
Speaker
And that's a tough thing to write about. So we worked we worked a little bit on that. And we also worked on, we i did a fair bit of work. And again, like not a ton of work, but like my mental energy, a lot of it was focused on how to resolve the piece because, because the expedition is in the past, you know, like at that point, you're like 4,000 words
Editorial Insights and Narrative Focus
00:14:20
Speaker
away from it.
00:14:22
Speaker
Um, and instead you've been spending time in this relationship and, and, And, you know, there's a tragic end to it and there's grief and and working through that stuff.
00:14:33
Speaker
And so it it was really like I remember sending Cassidy an email that was like, I'm i'm basically writing a long deck for this story. And I wanted Cassidy to double check that that I was right on it, you know, but I really tried to boil it down to like four sentences that that summed up the entire story in the arc.
00:14:55
Speaker
And then once she was OK with that, I went back through the piece and tried to draw each of those sentences out, if that makes sense. You know, and and it was basically like, you know, she had struggled to find community despite all this incredible outdoor prowess and thought she'd found it when she fell in love.
00:15:16
Speaker
And then he dies in ah in a mountaineering accident. and In her grief, she finds the community that she'd always been looking for, which ends up being this this gift that John gives her, both both the love they had while he was alive and this broader sense of belonging after he had died.
00:15:40
Speaker
And so you just go through and you and it's it's basically like less words about other stuff, more words about that stuff, you know? Yeah, exactly. that It's like you're you're figuring out the the flavor profile or the tasting notes of the story. and It's like, all right, we just need to yeah intensify those.
00:16:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Just drawing drawing out the stuff that seems really important and and then trying to minimize the other stuff so that you can stay closer to like the heart of the story, because that's where I hope readers will really feel connected to Lena and be invested in in figuring out what's going to happen next.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I always love, you know, when when you're reading a story and then you you come across a moment and this way at the end, Cassidy comes into the story with Lena and I'm always like, OK, cool, like that's a choice. And I love trying to unpack that choice.
00:16:39
Speaker
And was that something that was always there from your point of view? Or did you say like this might be a good place for you to enter the story to bring it to that resolution?
00:16:52
Speaker
Well, she turned it in with ah with her in the last section. um so it So it was always there. and
Adventure Narratives and Creative Freedom
00:17:00
Speaker
And, you know, some writers like doing that and some don't.
00:17:04
Speaker
I think it's a tool that you can use, you know, like the writer's presence in a story. And sometimes it's very helpful. And in this case, like I thought Cassidy, like the last line, thought she just nailed it, you know? So like I'll...
00:17:20
Speaker
i'll um be accommodating of a ah lot if it sets up a really great ending to a story. Like I'm a total sucker for a last slide that makes you like get goosebumps, you know? And I, and I got that when I read this story, the one thing we did with this though, um, initially like the, the grieving process for Lena was in the previous section.
00:17:44
Speaker
So she kind of went through everything. And then Cassidy and and Lena are out skiing together. and And it was just sort of a recap of like the recent years of her life, which is a pretty traditional way of doing it in a story. um And then it actually changed in Top Edit because Peter Rubin, um who runs Long Reads and oversees the Atavist, he read it And he he felt like the pace had maybe dragged a little bit before Cassidy showed up.
00:18:18
Speaker
And so he was like, why don't we take this grief section um and tuck it into Cassidy's experience? Because, so yeah, because because there's an immediacy to the writer being present in the story, i think that helps maintain a pace or maybe even quicken the pace a little bit.
00:18:38
Speaker
and And because Peter felt like it was dragging a little bit before that, we decided to just tuck that previous section into, into the Cassidy and Lena skiing section, because we're, especially like at the end of stories, you know these are, out of the stories are long stories. And so I, I really want the pace to like quicken,
00:19:03
Speaker
in in those last 2000 words you know like that's that's not really the time to like slow down and and really drag things out i feel like i feel like once once you're that far in the story you just want to keep it moving as fast as you can and i think that little change helped do that in cassidy's piece Oh, for sure. And like what was in hearing you talk about you know the the way out of his stories are tend to be, i think the.
00:19:35
Speaker
you know, as ah as a reader or ah writer out there who does nonfiction, I think the really the best thing you can do is read short stories, short fiction, and think about how those are paced, how those move, and be like, okay, this, yeah, sure, this is fiction, but if I inject enough of these short stories into my head, like, I could probably find stories to report out that are verifiably true, but using
Relaxation and Personal Growth Recommendations
00:20:00
Speaker
these as a shape.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, you know, the great thing about fiction is like, it's pure story, you know, like, it's just about storytelling, and, and doing that in the best way possible, the most compelling and like engrossing way possible.
00:20:19
Speaker
So yeah, they're I think they're paying attention to like the pace, all any of the tools that fiction writers use, you know, and this is obviously nothing new. This is the literary journalism, you know, like pick up the tools that fiction writers use and apply them to your own stories and and make them better reading experiences.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah, oh that's great. Well, Jonah, as you know, it's always fun getting your side of the table here, and it's ah about time we hear from Cassidy Randall again, who has now turned into quite a regular on the podcast, which I'm very proud to say.
00:20:50
Speaker
So yeah, we're going to go here. Co-host. I know, i tell Brad. Co-host. Exactly. So yeah, we're going to go listen to Cassidy talk about this now. All right. Thanks for having me, Brandon.
00:21:07
Speaker
Noice. Sayward's coming back soon, so I hope you had your fix of Jonah. I'm sure Jonah's ready to take a little break from from this.
00:21:19
Speaker
That's not true. We have a great time. I think he likes it, right? Okay, Cassidy's back. She was on the show a couple months ago to talk about 30 Below, her magisterial narrative of the first six women to summit Denali in 1971. Let's just say early
00:21:40
Speaker
It's still the leader in the clubhouse for the first ever CNFE award for outstanding achievement in the field of excellence. Yes. I ripped that off from the Simpsons, but who wouldn't? Oh, yes.
00:21:52
Speaker
Either trophies or plaques will be made. Cassidy's first out of his story was anthologized in the year's best sports writing in 2023, I think. That's the consensus we came to. it could be 24. I'm pretty sure it's 23.
00:22:07
Speaker
She also co-wrote Ghost Wrote The Hard Parts with Oksana Masters. Cassidy's a very accomplished writer, even even though she might not feel like it. I think that's true of many of us.
00:22:19
Speaker
No matter what our outward accomplish accomplishments look like from the outside, sometimes we just feel like the rotten amateur that we feel deep inside.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, Cassidy has really found her lane in outdoor adventure stories that center women in this predominantly, well let's say historically, masculine subculture.
00:22:44
Speaker
We talk about the productivity trap. or She wrote a substack recently about that, and I'll link up to that, but it's good stuff. Feeling crappy about day jobs because you want your writing to be full-time, but then feeling crappy about writing full-time because you're burnt out and wishing for a day job so the writing can be more joyful.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah. And a recommendation for late spring and early summer. So let's welcome back Cassidy Randall, a CNF pod of regular at this point. You appear three times on this show. You're officially regular, like the five-timers club on SNL.
00:23:15
Speaker
let's Let's do it. Let's lets let's hear from Cassidy. it's always It's always so fun. It's
Reflections on Book Promotion and Support
00:23:21
Speaker
always so bright. She brings the light, man. Here's Cassidy.
00:23:34
Speaker
What's that sub stack you wrote about the so that productivity wheel? And I think that's a really, ah really cool point to underscore for a lot of people who listen to the show and certainly for us just to banter of about.
00:23:46
Speaker
ah But does it take take us to the moment where you're like, yeah, this is something I want to write about. um Part of it was on the damn productivity wheel where I have this sub stack and I have given myself a goal that I want to write, you know, on it twice a month.
00:24:03
Speaker
And for me, that sub stack is supposed to be something that's fun that I can write about whatever I want. i don't have to pitch it. I can just do whatever I want. Right. And because I gave myself this goal, I put myself on this stupid productivity wheel. And then the same time i had some other deadlines and I was also on book tour for releasing my new book 30 below. So I was in this hotel that.
00:24:29
Speaker
was so uncomfortable. And I was in Whitefish, Montana, and was then was trying to go to some different coffee shops, trying to find somewhere just to concentrate. Like for me, my office is magical. My own space is magical. And I don't know what about it. It's just comfortable. i love it. I cannot seem to write anywhere else.
00:24:46
Speaker
So I'm just beating myself up about this. The fact that I just can't even get anything done. I can't get one of these deadlines done. I can't even get an essay done for my sub stack that's supposed to be fun. And then I was like, and what, why, why am I trying to do this? Right? Like it's supposed to be for me and the point of writing for yourself is supposed to be fun. and So it really made me think about the fact that as particularly I think freelancers,
00:25:12
Speaker
And all of the platforms have exploded for writing. You feel kind of like you have to be on every one if you're going to make a living or if you're going to be seen to make a name for yourself. And don't know, it's definitely something I've been thinking about quite a lot in terms of the fact that we are sort of drinking from a fire hose of content right now.
00:25:35
Speaker
And it makes me wonder, because I feel like I'm stuck on this wheel that I have to produce all the time. Do I even want to write for money anymore? I don't know. like I mean, I write because I can't not write most of the time, except when I feel so much pressure.
00:25:49
Speaker
But it really made me think about that. Yeah, I know Christine Yu, she, in the last couple years after Up to Speed came out, and she was on she was on ah like a hyper-productive, freelancing kind of schedule, and Up to Speed came out, and she was really burned out, and she took a day job that is not really related to the writing she does. So that just lets the writing that she that does come across her her desk as things that she more or less wants to she really wants to do and it is fun and it's not for a paycheck it's more nourishing in that regard so the pressure is off and i can see that can really see the appeal in that if you're able to you know sometimes we get away from maybe at the start of the career you're like you you feel like shit for having a day job to subsidize the writing you want to do because you want the writing to do the thing then you do the writing for the thing and you realize you're burning out and you're starting to hate the writing and then you're like man what i would give for that day job so i could just do the writing for more for fun
00:26:45
Speaker
ah once I know that is, it's so true. I actually would not mind just growing people's flowers for them. That's what I want to do right now. oh my God. Get your hands in the dirt and just get, get into the earth.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah. And then just really make no money.
00:27:02
Speaker
Exactly. You know what's interesting? Have you seen, ah there's a new sub, speaking of ah the productivity wheel and content fire hoses, there is a new content, a new sub stack out. How, when, I think that's how you pronounce his name. I've ah been part of his other sub stack before, which is famous writing routines, which I thought was funny because I thought I am not famous at all.
00:27:26
Speaker
But this new one that he started was how I make money writing. And he interviews different writers in different genres and who cobble it together in different ways about how they're making money.
00:27:37
Speaker
And when he sent it to me and it asked how much, what's your income like on a yearly basis? I didn't answer at first. but The answer I put was, I don't really want to say because I think that most people who do what I do are making a lot more money. And that basically makes me feel bad about myself. Yeah.
00:27:57
Speaker
And then as the first 10 came out, i was kind of looking through them and yeah, there are definitely people who are making $100,000 to $200,000 year just from freelance writing. And a lot of it i realized though were things that I wouldn't want to do you know, doing long form blogs for Amazon or something like that, or just constantly producing and selling and all of these things. And I think, you know, for full disclosure, since I started freelancing, I've been able to generally pull in from 60 to 70,000, except last year, really just messed up on a couple of the way I structured things and only made $45,000.
00:28:37
Speaker
And the trade-off I realized though has been that I have been able to write what I want to write. But even then it's funny how I think, oh man, I don't know how sustainable this is. So it might definitely be time for me if I actually want to make money and still be happy writing, I might need a day job.
00:28:54
Speaker
Yeah. and then it's like, yeah, you can take the that Amazon kind of contract work, but at what what's the the cost of that to your own soul? i couldn't I couldn't write for people like that. I couldn't write for big oil content marketing and greenwashing shit. like I know I couldn't do that even though it might be lucrative.
00:29:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I can't imagine that either. ah But the things you do write tend to be ah really, really immersive and adventuresome. Of course, that's kind of a, if we're going to use the ugly B word, the brand that you do, you write these amazing outdoor narratives. And again, you're the partner with the atavist again with this, uh, yet another one. So how did you arrive at at this story?
00:29:40
Speaker
It was actually something I thought about being my second book. So the first book I wrote was with Oksana Masters, who was a Paralympian, and it was her memoir and just...
00:29:52
Speaker
incredible story. And I was thinking about what else I wanted to write as a book. And actually what I truly wanted my second book to be was based on the first out of a story that you and I talked about, about Susie Goodall, who was the first woman to compete in and the Golden Globe race, which is a race to sail nonstop around the world without modern technology.
00:30:14
Speaker
And that story is just wild. And i really wanted that to turn that into a book and could not get my agent to go for it. which was such a bummer. And so I was looking around for what else I could write. And I had reached out to several women that I knew in the outdoor world, adventure world, who were either professional athletes or guides or just hardcore enthusiasts and asked what kind of stories are out there that we don't know, that I don't know, what needs to be told.
00:30:45
Speaker
And this story came up from a few people. Do you know who Lena Rowat is? And the more I looked into her, the more I thought, oh, this is so interesting. So Lena was the first, she was the woman, the only woman on a an expedition to become the first to traverse the whole of North America's coast range.
00:31:08
Speaker
And at the time, so this is 2000, 2001, when she's dreaming this up. and it was kind of the, on the the cusp of modern exploration, basically, you know, there were no more great first really left in the world, but here was this total blank spot on the map in a lot of ways.
00:31:30
Speaker
And all these veteran sort of mountaineers and skiers said that to traverse the whole of it in one go could not be done. So it's this massive range that stretches from Vancouver all the way north into Alaska.
00:31:44
Speaker
And it is remote and rugged from just sea level, rainforest, river crossings up to 13,000 foot peaks, right?
00:31:54
Speaker
And so logistically difficult to access or exit, very few exits back to civilization if you needed help. This was at a time when we were just coming into GPS, that kind of technology didn't really exist.
00:32:08
Speaker
And here was this last great first. And also in a culture The BC, the British Columbian coast culture was very much ninja at this idea that accomplishments should fly under the radar. And so the people who wanted to do this weren't doing it for glory. They were doing it for all these different reasons.
00:32:29
Speaker
And Lena, when the first time I spoke to her, I started to understand why she wanted to do it. And she wanted to tell her story. She went to work with me. She was into doing a full book length story on this.
00:32:42
Speaker
to talk about sort of her mental state. And she was suffering from depression, just really difficult depression, slightly suicidal. And a lot of it had to do with the way that she was raised by these very adventurous parents who didn't prioritize necessarily their children's needs over their own.
00:33:01
Speaker
And I wanted to pull back the curtain on this really long romanticized pursuit in Western culture, right? Like mountaineering, skiing.
00:33:13
Speaker
I think a lot of times mainstream media tends to really romanticize those things. And we only like interest in these things shoots up when there's drama or death or some kind of like terrifying survival story.
00:33:27
Speaker
And I think the reasons that people do these things are the reasons that even in the face, I think of death, which Lena experiences and this proximity to death that comes with the territory, those reasons often go unacknowledged, I think. And so I really wanted to pull back the curtain on this really, i don't know, like veil sport.
00:33:52
Speaker
And she was so into that. um And in the end, What was really interesting too, i think you and I talked about this when we talked about my book, 30 Below, this idea of in our modern era, people don't necessarily keep written journals, they don't write letters. And so I didn't have, ah we didn't have a lot of record of what other people on the expedition felt or were thinking.
00:34:14
Speaker
And she didn't have a lot of that either. And so it ended up making more sense as a long form piece. So that was a long winded answer. ah And ah with ah with these out of his podcasts, I always love getting a sense, um as as you know, from having done this before, but kind of what went into the pitch and how did that how the shape of that, how that manifested?
00:34:37
Speaker
The pitch came out of what I had sent basically to Susan, to my agent, our agent that we share, in wanting to turn this into a book. And it was basically kind of like the way I like to organize my thoughts, which was essentially like a very long pitch to Susan that she would then, that we would take to publishers, right?
00:35:00
Speaker
And you probably like two pages long. And so already basically had that and I adapted it um to the Atavis. So I kind of shortened it a little bit and I am actually, I'm trying to pull it up now. I don't even know i if I have it somewhere.
00:35:17
Speaker
ah do. And what I, cause I had already kind of come up with what I wanted the title of the book to be and and sort of what the, what the real focus of it was, but I honed it in. And so the title of the book and the title of the pitch that i then sent was North of Impossible.
00:35:33
Speaker
And the subheader was, you know, was the greatest ski and mountaineering expedition ever, a journey of ob obsession, depression, love, loss, survival, and the cost of following a drive to go further than higher further and higher than anyone ever had before.
00:35:49
Speaker
And so and the pitch process for me, coming up with, particularly when you're not doing necessarily a book that you get to ramble on for pages and pages, but something that you have to wrangle into submission at you know maybe 10,000 words or less, like 2,000 for a feature story.
00:36:06
Speaker
To me, i'm honing in on that headline and that subheader are so important to figuring out what I actually wanna write about. And I know from my experience that editors so appreciate that too.
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's really astute. in And the fact that you've written for them before on more or less a cold pitch, you know, this one comes in warmer. So what what is the, how did how it maybe did your first pitch work with them and how did it compare to your second one?
00:36:35
Speaker
That's a good question. The first pitch I sent is, I hopped on the phone with that editor, wanted to talk through the fact that I would know how to do this and that I had what I needed to be able to do it, that my subject, Susie Goodall, the sailor, was willing that nobody else had sort of rights on her story or that she wasn't talking to anyone else because the way that her story works, she was very much in demand by the media back in 2018 and then just went silent, basically.
00:37:06
Speaker
And so you know, say where the editor at the Atavist had wanted to make sure that we had kind of an exclusive on that story. And so it was, there was a lot of talking for sure. And the editing went back and forth quite a lot more on that story. And I think part of that was I had told ah my editor Jonah, who ended up ah doing the the line edit. I worked closely with Jonah and Sayward did the top edit for that story. But Jonah, I told him that I wanted to learn in that process and he took that to heart and he's a phenomenal editor.
00:37:37
Speaker
And I had told him all the things I wanted that story to do. And so I think then with this piece, I had pitched it and Jonah had really good questions. We went back and forth via email, honed it in and the edit process ended up being so much smoother.
00:37:53
Speaker
probably because I learned so much from him in that first round. But also I think this story is, it's just a little different in nature. And I think that I put, I wonder if all of us at the Atavis did a lot of pressure on it to be as good as that sailing story. And I think that those kinds of stories like I had with that alone at the edge of the world story about Susie, those don't come along all that often, let alone sources like that. Like, I think that that one was,
00:38:23
Speaker
You know, there's this story about how Jim Harrison wrote Legends of the Fall in nine days because the gods were dictating it to him. That's what that story felt like. And this story is absolutely incredible, but it didn't quite feel like that. So I think we all had a lot of pressure on it. And in the end, it is a phenomenal story and it does what I want it to do.
00:38:42
Speaker
And I think it's it's interesting to compare, right? when we I'm lucky to have gotten so many different phenomenal stories, but it's interesting how this one kind of played out differently.
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah. the And we should mention that that was, well, your story on Susie was anthologized in year's best sports writing, like in the main volume. So like it yeah it made the, it made the cut for the big book there. so which is no small accomplishment. So that's just, ah we should should i bring that up to the floor for people. what what what a What year and what what volume was that? do you Do you remember when it, like, was it 22 or 23? think it was 23. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:20
Speaker
i think it was twenty three yeah Very nice. And when you said when you were ah talking to Jonah through your through that first piece and you really wanted to learn, know, what were the lessons that you really did want to to learn? And ah and what did you learn?
00:39:36
Speaker
I wonder if I can even put a lot of those things into words. I think I've internalized a lot of them in practice now because that came out in 2022. So that would have been, you know, two and a half years ago now that we were working on that. But the ways where you start people in a story, where you hold their hand on things that are important,
00:39:56
Speaker
What you're kind of are allowed to do, you know, you can't necessarily break the rules right off the bat or you can't break the rules in the middle of a story. You kind of have to finesse those things. He taught me a lot about, about immersing readers, I think in a way that is really powerful.
00:40:15
Speaker
And a lot of that does have to do with pacing. I learned a lot about pacing from him. And that is really invaluable, I think. And how pacing is really different, right? From depending on how much time you have to play with words, like the pacing in books, you can draw things out quite a lot more or you can interrupt things a lot more. You have to, right? Like sometimes you have to interrupt nonstop action.
00:40:38
Speaker
give readers a little relief, but you don't necessarily want to interrupt readers and give them relief if the piece is only 10,000 words sometimes, right? So I learned so much in terms of structure and pacing end and really how you bring somebody along with you in a story.
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah, and something in my conversations with Jonah, he never wants for an out of his story for the writer and by proxy the reader to get too far away from the, stray too far away from the main character. So is that something that you know you took to heart? Because especially in this story, we're never far away from Lena very long, if at all.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's in my original draft, not necessarily. I wanted, so Lena ends up falling in love with another Mountaineer on this expedition.
00:41:31
Speaker
And that Mountaineer, John, just is so fascinating in his own right and had his own stakes and his own demons that he was battling. And I wanted to spend a lot more time with him and have him be more of a character. And in the end, you know, a lot of,
00:41:50
Speaker
him was cut out of the story, which, and even, you know, Guy Edwards, who was the leader of that expedition, a lot of that was cut out too. So it's still my instinct to want to follow other people.
00:42:00
Speaker
And yeah, he definitely reigned me in on that, which I think is good for sure. Because again, it's, um, it's not a, it's not a book. So I had to keep reminding myself of that. yeah and that Yeah, that's a perfect corollary to even say 30 below where you have the capacity to blow out all six of those women in, you know, almost like their own atavistian feature unto themselves. like But that's the difference between, you know, whatever ends up being like a 80 or 90,000 word book versus, you know, something that's closer to 9,000 in a story like this.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yes. And I think it's funny as you're saying that I'm realizing that I have this preference for when I write to want to really flesh people out as real and complex people that I did that even with Oksana's book, with the hard parts, with Oksana's adopted mother. You know, I spent whole sections on gay masters.
00:42:55
Speaker
Because she also was so fascinating to me. And so ah this may be to my own detriment and fault, but I want readers to come to know the people the way that I get to know them when I get to write about them and be able to get inside their heads through the people they love or when they get to talk to me. I always want everybody to know how amazing or how complex or the stakes that everybody's carrying. And yeah, you can't always do that, it turns out, which is why I actually would love to chain smoke books too, Brendan. Yeah. Get to just write one after book.
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah. I love a good um itemized, what I call an itemized lead or an itemized paragraph. And there's there's a graph early on, yeah, pretty much yeah on the second page of this document I have,
00:43:37
Speaker
where Where you write about Lena and let's see, I'll just i'll just read it. She's like, yeah lena roa thought it could be done outwardly lina lived a life of epic adventures skiing mountaineering through hiking cycling across the continent and she was known in the whistler ski community as a six foot tall powerhouse with insane endurance came to try almost any mountain objective she wore thrift store clothes preferring bright tights and flowery dresses over brand name outdoor gear and sometimes shed clothing altogether and skied naked She dyed her short hair once bright blue, now bleached white and danced on tables at parties with no need for alcohol or drugs to let loose. so
00:44:15
Speaker
yeah Like there is so much packed into that paragraph, which might be 100 words. And it's like I love ah i love a heavy paragraph like that. Awesome.
00:44:26
Speaker
Yeah. Like what? So like, I don't know. Take us to the reporting of a paragraph like that and how you, you know, you drop it in and because there's economy of words and you're getting a big sketch of a person in a real tight package, which is ultimately what keeps the momentum and the pacing to bring up a point earlier from, from lagging.
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah. So I, yeah, I wanted to paint a picture in the beginning of who Lena was That was really visceral because Lena herself is just this larger than life person. Not only is she six feet tall, Amazon, she has this huge personality that is really complex. And yeah, from the outside, she is just...
00:45:08
Speaker
ah vivacious, right? And on the inside, so then the next paragraph really contrasts that with the fact that she was battling this really heavy depression and loneliness and isolation.
00:45:21
Speaker
And I really wanted those two paragraphs to also be at the same time, not just a snapshot of Lena, but a snapshot of a common mountain town community where that can often be the case with people who live in mountain towns and pursue these kinds of are really deeply immersed in high risk adventure sports.
00:45:40
Speaker
And to do that, I mean, a lot of that also comes from my lived experience, right, where I've lived in mountain towns for most of my adult life now. And I have written about this for quite a long time, these kinds of high risk adventures and boundary breakers and What are some issues that are involved in all of these things? And why do we do this? Because it's still so romantic even to us. Right.
00:46:03
Speaker
And so i wanted it to do a lot of things just in these two paragraphs. And so pulling on my own experience. And then I talked to so many people for this story and obviously spent so much time with Lena and spent time with Lena's sister, Ruby and talked to her parents and with people who knew Lena and,
00:46:23
Speaker
people who knew John and people who knew other people on this expedition and only sort of knew Lena by proxy. And it is it's a lot of synthesizing for sure. You know, and I got to go through these photo albums that Lena had. So when I say that, you know, in this era, we start to move away from getting all these like deep journals and letters back and forth to each other. This was still an era of photo albums. And Lena had amazing array of, you know, hard copy photo albums. So I could see who she was. Right.
00:46:55
Speaker
And that was, and she was so open to, I think, which is also a gift when people are willing to be very honest about what they're going through. And so, yeah, so in short, it was a lot of synthesizing. Yeah.
00:47:08
Speaker
Well, her sister Ruby yeah appears high in the story, and then she kind of gets excised from this one particular, you know, adventure. and ah But we learn later in the story as well that the Lena and Ruby's sibling relationship is a bit afraid And you're able to write about that candidly. And I imagine those those conversations are hard to broach with people and even to reach people who want to talk. So how did you handle you know getting the the access needed for that and the trust needed to speak candidly about it?
00:47:40
Speaker
First off, I acknowledge that, especially for Ruby, because in the end, this is a story about Lena, which is hard for Ruby because it's always kind of been about Lena and what Lena has done. And Ruby's done really incredible things too.
00:47:57
Speaker
So I think just acknowledging that with Ruby and just putting myself in both of their shoes, but also particularly Ruby's shoes, Because a lot of this, she has done a lot of processing. She is incredibly emotionally aware. She's very wise.
00:48:13
Speaker
But a lot of this is really vulnerable, really vulnerable stuff to talk about. I mean, i told her that from the get-go and I shared passages with context with her to be sure she was comfortable and that I was getting things right. It's really important to me that I'm getting things right.
00:48:30
Speaker
when somebody is willing to share these vulnerable things with me. I mean, to get those things wrong and then have them be published, I can't even imagine that would be absolutely horrific for somebody, right? That you trusted this writer and then they just, you know, paraphrase something that, and it ended up changing the nuance entirely. Like nuance is so important.
00:48:48
Speaker
And so, yeah Ruby and I spent a fair amount of time on the phone. I went to visit her, she came over, she lives on Vancouver Island. And as I was driving up to Squamish to stay with Lena, she came over from, or she lives on Bowen Island, sorry. She came over from the island and we just kind of walked around and ate dinner and just talked and talked a lot.
00:49:10
Speaker
But I think in the end it is just, I mean, I can't imagine if somebody asked me to share these really vulnerable things and didn't acknowledge that it's it's a gift that that person is giving.
00:49:25
Speaker
And it's not a gift to the writer. It's a gift to everybody who will read it that will say, I always thought I was alone in this. And now I know that there are other people who feel this way, or I've been looking for a way through and here is a potential path for somebody who's experienced something like I have.
00:49:42
Speaker
And Ruby really got that. And she, because she's also a performer, Ruby is a talented trapeze gymnast performer. What she can do with her body is absolutely amazing. And she knows that each performance is a gift. So she already was kind of on that page and same with Lena. like Lena always said to me, if my story can help other people in any way, then I want to tell it.
00:50:05
Speaker
And how admirable is that? That's amazing. Yeah. And then to want to tell that story, but entrust it to another messenger is something altogether, know, just risky. And it takes a lot of trust on that part, right?
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think that that, again, I would share, i never shared a whole draft um because that's bad journalism in a lot of different ways, depending on what the piece is. yeah and what the publication's policies are, but I would share really intense passages with Lena too, to just be sure. Because I think that that is just courtesy, right? I mean, to for her to have some sense of how she's going to appear is, i think, necessary to have that kind of trust.
00:50:51
Speaker
You know, it was also really helpful is that we knew a lot of similar people in the mountain world. And I think maybe that helped Lena trust me a little bit. But I also think she just is really open in general, which is also a rare thing. Yeah.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah. Don Venata and Seth Wickersham, when they're doing their investigative stories for ESPN.com and covering the NFL, they're um they do that too, where, well, just for the spirit of accuracy, they essentially will fact check with their source and be like, hey, i this is a passage, yeah you know, yeah you said this, am I getting this right?
00:51:28
Speaker
And, you know, that that is good journalism to make sure you're getting it accurate, that it's fair. ah But what also happens is sometimes they get better information. They're like, oh, actually, you know, there's this extra bit of seasoning you can throw into that. So then they end up swapping out quotes and,
00:51:43
Speaker
and and getting something richer. But well also what could be terrifying too is you go through that process you're like, oh, I'm really not comfortable with you saying that. Can you delete that? And it's just like, oh, fuck. like this Like this was rich and now it's like in the spirit of fairness, depending on who they are, of course. you know Roger Goodell, you'd be like, no, you said this, we're using it.
00:52:02
Speaker
But if it's like more of a private citizen, you're like you you really need to make that balance and that... Yeah. That decision of what to share and whatnot, how to protect the person, how to be fair, but still be true to the story and to the craft.
00:52:16
Speaker
Yes, totally. Yeah. What a dance. Yeah. And I just like to me, it's like imagine you have like something that's really great and i you don't have to imagine you get great stuff all the time. But then you share a passage and they're like, i don't i don't know about that.
00:52:30
Speaker
And you're God damn it. Like, this is such a good scene. and It took a lot of yeah it's a lot of reporting that went into this and a lot of honing and crafting. And then they're like, i please don't run that. That would make me very uncomfortable. And you're like, shit. like that That's also the risk of bringing it back to them.
00:52:46
Speaker
Exactly. So true. I know. And I have had to make those calls before. Because in the end, i think what I do acknowledge, I think it's very different than if, say, you're reporting on politics or a scandal or things that really require that your facts are like on par and you're giving balanced reporting.
00:53:04
Speaker
When you're telling someone's story at the end of the day, It's that person's story, yeah right? It's like mine. And so I think that there has to be some of that acknowledgement there at the risk of sounding like a really um compromised journalist.
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah, oh exactly. ah You know, obviously the story, a big threat of it is is mental health and ah the the culture of that in mountaineering. So, know, how is mental health viewed in mountaineering these days, maybe back then, but as it's evolved?
00:53:35
Speaker
I think there are a few layers to this. and one of the layers is that mountaineering and to some extent skiing, mountaineering in particular, though, has always been this overwhelmingly masculine sport.
00:53:53
Speaker
And not just in the people, the you know the gender of people participating in it, but in what we term our masculine traits, which tend to be things like Speed, stoicism, infallibility, those sorts of things, bravery and being vulnerable is not something that has been accepted much or that people have known how to do historically.
00:54:18
Speaker
That is changing, which has been really amazing to see. But what has been sort of the double whammy of that has been the fact that mountaineering and skiing, these high-risk adventure sports, climbing, whitewater kayaking, and tend to come with a lot more inherent proximity to death and grief and serious trauma.
00:54:43
Speaker
And trauma not even just in losing people, but in being involved in an avalanche or, you know, in anything that could cause some serious pain. PTSD and we tend to think of things like trauma as something only maybe combat vets experience and that's not true.
00:55:00
Speaker
But this culture then, because people are expected to be stoic, has resulted historically in a lot of people walking around wounded and suffering in silence.
00:55:13
Speaker
And so that's one layer, which is interesting because at the same time, it's a community that when you do lose people, it's a community that understands it so much better than anybody else possibly could about why that person was chose to be in the place that they were doing an activity that claimed their lives. so That's the only community that's truly going to understand that and understand the grief of the people closest who lost that person. Right.
00:55:39
Speaker
So there's some really sort of interesting dichotomies happening. At the same time, a lot of people who are involved in these pursuits, we tend to live in mountain towns and mountain towns.
00:55:51
Speaker
by nature, tend to be or used to be, and particularly these small ski towns, tend to be really transient where you have populations that are coming just for the winter or people are leaving to go and do other things or that kind of results in these fragile social connections.
00:56:06
Speaker
And people do feel really isolated and alone a lot of the time. And then the layer on top of that is that these towns, these small towns that are the hubs for these sort of high-risk pursuits that can involve a lot of potential trauma,
00:56:23
Speaker
are really low on mental health resources. That is something that actually is starting to change. And there are some really cool models popping up that I want to write about. But so that means that you have a lot of people who are feeling really alone with no access to any kind of therapy, let alone therapists who actually understand what they're going through. I mean, even now, as we're changing in this model, a lot of modern therapists I'm hearing who aren't outdoor trauma trained will say, well,
00:56:51
Speaker
Why were you there in the first place? I mean, that was your choice. so shaming people who have been through traumatic experiences. So it's just this huge kind of double whammy. And a lot of people also to add yet another layer are already running from demons and tend to use these pursuits where you have to be ultimately present, right? Because it's only your decisions and your knowledge that's keeping you alive half the time.
00:57:14
Speaker
um Or even just from herding. I mean, I think about that even in downhill mountain biking or when I'm skiing something really steep, I am ultimately present. And that is so tantalizing, right? Because you forget about everything else.
00:57:26
Speaker
And that is an incredible thing. So that's also another long winded answer on the complexities of what's happening in a lot of sort of mountain culture.
00:57:37
Speaker
Well, I love a good long winded answer. it's a if i can If I can ask a short question and get a long answer, we're we're going we're going to good places. Excellent. yeah at the end ah at the end of the story, you know yeah you know, you and Lena enter it like that in that final sort of, you know, coda to the thing. And and just as you're structuring the piece and coming to that conclusion, um yeah just take us to that experience and the decision to enter the story yourself.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah, I was trying to think about how I wanted to end it. And I think that part of it was this, that so much of the way that Lena thought of herself was the way that she was perceived by others.
00:58:18
Speaker
And so having that maybe last perception, and there might be a little bit of a closing of the circle of, you know, sort of my observation of her now, you know, so many years on from all of these events.
00:58:32
Speaker
But also this idea, i really wanted it to end now, basically in the present. And last fall, when I went to go see her and who she is now, because I wanted it to really be clear too. And I had some some conversations with Jonah throughout the edit process as I was working on this. I really wanted it to be clear that things don't we don't tie things up in neat little bows right away. ah um Oftentimes it takes a really long time for people to process hard events and figure out what the hell is going on in our own brains. And a lot of us never even do, right? yeah
00:59:10
Speaker
And I wanted it to be really clear that it took many years and things still aren't tied up in a neat bow for Lena. And so I think that was a lot of why I kind of structured that ending the way that I did.
00:59:22
Speaker
And what brings you back to these ah mountaineering stories? And you know it's for you being so steeped in it, you know keeping it fresh and finding in new and evocative ways to tell these stories that have sometimes similar backdrops.
00:59:39
Speaker
Oh, man, I think we're just getting into being able to tell really great nuanced stories about adventure. I think that for the longest time, we've had formulas for how we tell these stories and they're Classic, I mean, my God, adventure and survival stories are just ripe for hero's journey tropes, you know?
00:59:58
Speaker
And I think we're just being able within maybe like the last five to 10 years, finding all these different ways to talk about these things, which is really cool. And the fact that these adventures are backdrops for very universal human conditions, you know, they're not siloed people who are doing these things, even though sometimes their brain seems to work very differently than the rest of ours do.
01:00:19
Speaker
And that to me is so cool that you could have these stories that have always been told, but you can find these new ways to tell them and new ways to apply them. Almost like new mythologies, right? For new eras. I love that.
01:00:33
Speaker
And I also love with adventure stories, it is really easy to have some fun action writing, ah clear climax. Those, I mean, to have those kinds of things to get to play with, that's like a gimme and so fun. So I just find it really fun to write about.
01:00:50
Speaker
And yeah it's fine. have a tab on my computer. ah a master i' I like master classes and ah there's a bunch that I've been watching. I watched Michael Lewis's one, which is really great. And I'm digging into Bob Woodward's on investigative reporting.
01:01:04
Speaker
Oh, oh And I, yeah, I'm just at the start of it. And like I consider myself, I mean, I beat the shit out of myself anyway, but it's like, I'm not i'm not a particularly great reporter.
01:01:16
Speaker
Like, you know, just knowing those kind of nuts and boltsy things that you're supposed to learn when you're 21. But I'm just not not very good it. you know, sussing out documents and all all that kind of Woodward and Bernstein shit. So I'm like watching that to try to try to get a little, a little more skilled. And I wonder for you, like, what are the things that, that you want to continually sharpen?
01:01:42
Speaker
Ooh, finding the ways to connect disparate pieces like pulling threads together. I want to get better at pulling threads together. I always want to sharpen that.
01:01:54
Speaker
And I do also think descriptions, like the way that I feel like I, I could be so much better at, uh, sort of like analogies or describing, i don't know, people or places.
01:02:08
Speaker
Like I think about the way that John McPhee can describe things, right. One of the greatest nonfiction writers ever. yeah And I have so far to go and that So that definitely, I want to be better about those kinds of like like, those are like writing crafts and communication. Like how do you communicate in these really unexpected ways that I think I could get better at? Well, well Cassidy, it's always so fun to talk to you. And as you know, from past experiences, I love getting that great recommendation from you. And maybe you've got something new that you've cooked up since the last time we spoke. So what would you recommend that's fun for the listeners?
01:02:47
Speaker
To read or do. Read or do or purchase if we want to do that. i always say, I always kind of say it could be a brand of coffee you're interested in, a pair of socks, fanny pack, you know, whatever, what whatever is just like, ah, this thing, this thing I'm doing or this thing I purchased, like this is really fun.
01:03:04
Speaker
It's bringing me some joy. To tie back to what we started out our conversation with on the productivity hamster wheel. i recommend that everybody, when it's springtime in a beautiful place or wherever you live, my God, get outside and just take some time to find some natural space and listen to creek flowing or watch leaves leafing out on a tree or watch the wind moving wildflowers. And
01:03:35
Speaker
it is an amazing thing for our mental state to even get that for 10 minutes a day. Like I have been so intentional over the last, just the last week and a half, really, since I had this realization about the productivity hamster wheel and what it was doing to me about carving out space for just rest and time.
01:03:54
Speaker
And that is invaluable. And it's something that I think I've just let fall by the wayside. And I think that we have to be really intentional about it in this day and age. Maybe not everybody does, but i do Oh, that's great. Yeah. A few weeks ago in my neighborhood, there were these flowering trees and they were just in full bloom you know and it only lasts for about 36 hours.
01:04:18
Speaker
And then, but there was a light enough breeze where the petals were floating and it was like snow. And it was one of the most spectacular things I've ever seen. I was like hypnotized by this tree and these petals just floating on the wind. It's super slow. It was really mesmerizing.
01:04:36
Speaker
Yes. Oh, man. Yes. And that is, I mean, there's so many studies on what that does for us and so many different levels. But I mean, we don't even need studies. You just go outside and experience it and you immediately feel better. oh Amazing. Well, oh Cassie, I'm so glad that ah we got to do this again. You're a CNF pod of regular now. so I love it. When you come by for a number ah appearance number three, that that makes you officially regular. Yeah.
01:05:03
Speaker
I love it. thank you so much for the work you do. And thanks for the time, Cassidy. Thank you for elevating writers. It is so important. Thank you.
01:05:17
Speaker
Yes. Awesome. Thanks to Cassidy for coming back on the show to end her residency for this year. At first she was like, if you don't want to have me back because it was so soon.
01:05:29
Speaker
and I was like, let's put an end to such foul talk. Magazine.atavist.com to read her latest story. And 30 Below is the name of her latest book. It's a masterpiece.
01:05:40
Speaker
It really is. Go buy it. And a copy the Front Runner. I've probably riffed on this topic as it pertains to book writing, this idea of book endurance. ah Book writing isn't a marathon. That'd be easy.
01:05:56
Speaker
It's an ultra marathon. But so is the promotion machine.
01:06:01
Speaker
At first, I was a bit dismayed when, on May 20th, when the book came out, because there was really no flood of media, no fireworks, no bubbly. I did treat myself to a liter of Pellegrino sparkling water ahead of my Powell's event at a pastini dinner with Ruby and Pat. I'll explain the reasoning, perhaps, in another parting shot. Maybe the episode with Melissa Feebos, which might be publishing today as part of a double-feature Friday, whatever.
01:06:27
Speaker
Point being, you see many writers who Not even famous ones. You know, just your run-of-the-mill working mid-tier writers like me who seem to have this slate of events, a summer booked up, a spring loaded. don't have any of that.
01:06:45
Speaker
It's more ad hoc. As far as local media is concerned, like the Registered Guard and the Eugene Weekly, you know where I kind of know people, they have ah they've kind of ignored the book and me.
01:06:59
Speaker
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they're waiting for another time. Not holding my breath, but I'll give them the BOTD. But that was kind of a bummer.
01:07:12
Speaker
ah Thankfully, local radio from Eugene to Portland has picked me up. KLCC in Eugene and Oregon Public Broadcasting in Portland, as well as Danny and Justin with Fox Sports Radio and John Canzano with The Bald Face Truth and KATU-TV in Portland with Hannah Olson.
01:07:31
Speaker
But Eugene, by and large, is giving me the cold shoulder. An acquaintance of mine said, know, sorry about the cold shoulder from Eugene. Weird. But with a long historical shadow.
01:07:42
Speaker
I'm not privy to that historical shadow, but it appears there's precedent. The literary scene in Eugene is kind of weird and not entirely supportive of each other. You know, as an outsider coming in, I've lived here for about ten almost 10 years now.
01:07:56
Speaker
ah It could be that Eugene doesn't take kindly to outsiders. I don't know. Like I said, I am a i'm a Eugenian immigrant, if you will. And my reach, such as it is, is more national, even international. I see you, Botswana.
01:08:13
Speaker
But I take a deep breath and offer gratitude to a publication like The Wall Street Journal, which wrote a largely positive review of the book. Of course, I picked out the parts that are more negative and burned them into my brain.
01:08:27
Speaker
But what else would you expect? And I framed the review in my studio. It looks nice behind me. That was big validation for me, for the book. know, little old B.O., you know, mainstream national publication on a Sunday in print.
01:08:42
Speaker
The Powell's event that I did at Cedar Hills in Beaverton was pretty great. You know, sparsely attended, ah but we had a ah fine discussion among about 20 people. Yeah, I thought we'd get maybe double that, but that's what I get for having expectations.
01:08:57
Speaker
That way lies madness. The people who were there were engaged, bought some books. One guy bought four, which is cool. I mean, great. Makes a great gift.
01:09:08
Speaker
A great stocking stuff. ah I think I fucked up in just about every book I signed. i won't explain it because it's hard to vocalize, but I i did a typo in every one, and I only realized it at the end.
01:09:20
Speaker
i was like, ah, shit. Makes it more unique, right? Fucking idiot. We've got some idiots sprinkled over the summer. Yes, we do.
01:09:31
Speaker
We've got some events sprinkled over the summer. The pre-classic over July 4th should be a tentpole event of the summer. Thousands and thousands of track fans will be on hand, and I'll be signing from 10 to 12 on July 5th.
01:09:44
Speaker
Then I get to watch the track meet, and I've never been to an international track meet before. So I can't wait to see these freaks get after it. And make no mistake, people at that level are freaks. Beautiful freaks, but freaks.
01:09:58
Speaker
you know This book was always going to be about the long game. And people are going to come to it more by word of mouth than by any major media appearance. As much as a major media appearance from mainstream publications or mainstream TV or mainstream but radio or podcasts.
01:10:14
Speaker
As much as that strokes our egos and looks good and you can share it with like you know your boomer parents. and like, oh, I get that. You must be successful now. And all that feels good.
01:10:28
Speaker
It's going to be word of mouth. It's going to be handto hand to hand. And it's been in the world for two weeks, and I think it's going pretty well. I'm excited for the summer ahead and maybe make some waves during the fall marathon season before setting it aside and letting it run on own.
01:10:46
Speaker
So stay wild, seeing efforts. And if you can't do, interview. You got a parting shot after all, didn't you? See ya.
01:11:09
Speaker
Thank you.