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Humaning Trolls: Navigating Conflict and Connection in Virtual Spaces with Dr. Ruth Diaz
76 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of Player: Engage, Greg is joined by Dr. Ruth Diaz, a psychologist and conflict resilience expert. Ruth leads The Troll Project, a VR initiative designed to combat alienation and foster human connection. She shares insights from her Deepen Orient Transform model, explores the psychological aspects of trolling, and discusses how to build inclusive communities online.
Listen Here: Ruth Diaz - The Troll Project
Timestamps & Key Takeaways:
- 00:01 - 01:11: Introduction and Ruth’s Background
Ruth introduces herself and her work, highlighting her transition from veterinary medicine to psychology and her current focus on The Troll Project. - 10:27 - 13:30: Understanding Trolling Behavior
Ruth explains the dynamics of trolling, how it often stems from social anxiety and a need for connection, and the importance of approaching trolls with curiosity. - 20:11 - 22:45: The Evolution of Trolls
Discussion on how trolls evolve, the role of social anxiety, and how structured environments can mitigate harmful behavior. - 32:21 - 34:50: Differentiating Trolling from Bullying
Ruth explores the differences between trolling and bullying, highlighting the impact of anonymity and the importance of setting boundaries and recognizing harmful behavior. - 41:30 - 44:16: Addressing Crisis Situations in VR
Ruth shares a poignant example of a crisis situation in VR involving a suicide threat, discussing the importance of group intervention and support.
Key Concepts:
- Trolling Behavior: Understanding the psychological roots of trolling and the need for curiosity in addressing it.
- Community Building: Strategies for creating inclusive and supportive online communities that address and mitigate harmful behavior.
- Conflict Resilience: The importance of teaching conflict resilience and building systems that support healthy community dynamics.
- Crisis Intervention: Effective ways to handle crisis situations in virtual environments through group support and intervention.
- Differentiating Trolling and Bullying: Recognizing the distinctions between trolling and bullying, and understanding when trolling crosses the line into harmful behavior.
Transcript
Intro
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:08
gregp
Hey, everybody. Greg here. Welcome to the Player Engage podcast. Today we are joined by Dr. Ruth Diaz. She is a psychologist and conflict resilience expert. She created the Deepen Orient Transform model to help navigate conflict using emotional dynamics. Her upcoming book, The Dot Model, will explore this further. She currently leads the Troll Project, a VR initiative to combat alienation and foster human connection. Her work is featured in many podcasts and workshops focusing on DEI and technology. For for more information, you can visit her at thetrollproject.com and we'll have all that information as on our Player Engaged podcast as well as figureitin.org. Dr. Diaz also coaches leaders in conflict and hosts events on inclusive community management. So, Ruth, thank you so much for
Dr. Diaz's Background and Transition to Psychology
00:00:56
gregp
joining us today. I'm very excited about today's conversation because they got a million questions. But before I go on, anything you'd like to say about yourself or your project,
00:01:05
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Now I'm excited to be here and hopefully i I am learning to invite people to understand that we all have a troll inside of us. So buckle up because we all end up confessing our troll stories at some point.
00:01:18
gregp
All right, you, im I'm very worried. Luckily, this is fully edited, so you'll only hear the positives now. But I'm really curious, this is a fascinating subject to me. we've We've done conversations with trust and safety and learned about kind of the different things that they do there. And the whole idea of a troll is kind of a fascinating thing because you know, you see in schools, bullying's rising, kids are, social media is not helpful for any of that. But I mean, before we get deep into this, What got you into this field? What made you want to pursue kind of a psychology and then kind of focusing on trolls?
00:01:54
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, so the psychology end of things was my first love as far as a career was actually in veterinary medicine. And I ended up getting matched with kind of the hardest cases as a vet tech. And I thought I was going to be a veterinarian. And so I would end up with the the either animals that bit or the animals that were dying and needed supportive facilitation in their death process. And when I started to see this pattern after working at multiple offices, I realized that there was something I was doing there that was helping everyone stay a lot more calm, including the the furless creatures or the humans in the room.
00:02:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And that led me to wondering if the best way I could support the furry beings would be to actually learn how to help the humans.
00:02:41
gregp
Thank you.
00:02:46
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Because I found so many crossovers between you know, our human tangles and what manifested in the bodies of the animals. So psychology was a natural next step of just understanding how we tick and how we connect and how we break apart.
00:03:06
gregp
Interesting. And i I love that connection. I guess, you know, when you bring an animal to the vet and whether it be a good visit or a bad visit, the the animal is just afraid of the vet in general, right? The emotion is probably coming from the owner, right? And the emotion, the the worry, I'm sure a pet can sense when their owner is worried, right?
00:03:22
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:03:26
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and staff
00:03:27
gregp
And I guess you can you help that by supporting the people around the animal because that comfort
00:03:33
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
yeah Yeah. And so there was this piece around seeing what the furry and furless creatures had in common. and just really having a lot of compassion for even the veterinarians you know would call me sometimes for really hard home visits that we're gonna end up as euthanasia and they were sweating and they needed somebody to kind of be that facilitator that that really was like knowing it was gonna be okay and that this was a hard moment but this was also an incredibly like compassionate moment. I really learned to forgive people in a way
00:04:10
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
because I saw us deciding to do a really painful thing on purpose to spare the pain of these beings that we
00:04:16
gregp
Mm
Exploring Troll Behavior in Social VR
00:04:19
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
loved.
00:04:20
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so then that leads to Troll Project and realizing that the elephants in the virtual reality rooms are the beings who don't know how to
00:04:20
gregp
hmm.
00:04:34
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
actually just walk up and say hello and be open and curious. They, you know, if if we did handshakes in virtual reality, they would have a knife in their hands. They're they're antagonistic at at the get go. And so what ends up happening is people just kind of erase them from their awareness quite literally sometimes with blocking. And It seemed like such a different thing than we would do in physical reality. Like these people are pushing really hard because they can be blocked to some degree. They are being ignored. And how do we actually listen to what they're trying to get our attention and say, and then build some more gradient of solutions on what to do there to help them find their path and, and fit in a way that doesn't destroy community.
00:05:25
gregp
from the the veterinary side, right? Did it just click like, oh, I need to support the owner, the the furless friend here and make sure, okay, like the the the transformation from I'm going to want to work in veterinary to psychology to trolling, was it like an easy to see path because of how you approach this or did it take some like soul searching to figure out, hey, this is what I need to do?
00:05:35
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
war. Yeah, I mean, I think that to some degree, watching how people treated animals, especially in the South in the 80s, if you can imagine, i I saw such a disconnect in their own awareness of their bodies and what they intuitively knew about how these creatures were doing, and such a projection of like their affection and their anger and whatever else and
00:06:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And it made me start to really question like how emotionally constipated we all are, that we have been taught that our emotions are just basically, they're they're also kind of like trolls. they They're disruptive to our connections and we have to leave those at home or for later and how much that was actually causing a lot more chaos. And so that led me down a path of really wondering what what would it take for us to not be conflict avoidant? and then And then what happens when we avoid conflict is then it gets very extreme. And so what does micro conflicts look like? And answering those questions along a graduate education that took me about undergrad and graduate was about 17 years total.
00:07:10
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
So very long journey, continuing to ask these questions of like, how do we use language to bridge and also to break ourselves apart?
00:07:18
gregp
you
00:07:21
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And one of the key pieces that I found with that was using dichotomies in our language can get us excited. Like, wow, you're such a good person versus the bad person outside of this room right now. They they can make us feel close and safe and excited, but they can also create conflict because now the bad person might walk in the room. And so as I've learned about these dualities and stopped using them in my language, I've noticed that I can be around more and more volatile people and and hold my ground and actually they start to use that language less and be more present with me and answer
00:08:05
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
my questions and, and talk about their dreams before they became fully reactive animalistic beings.
00:08:12
gregp
So I'm going to tell you straight up. I don't completely understand that, but I want to dig more into it to understand it. Right. Cause I was talking to my buddy who who got trolled online the last week because someone told him he's bad at gaming.
00:08:19
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
yeah
00:08:23
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:08:24
gregp
and But it's funny because so his first question to me was how do you even approach a troll and talk to them and trust what they're going to say?
00:08:25
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:08:36
gregp
They're not going to troll you. Like how do you break the ice there? I guess, for lack of better words.
00:08:41
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, no, it's a great question. I was actually re-examining that myself yesterday. I was interviewing a world creator who I have noticed in public spaces of this person's world in virtual reality, I don't see trolling. And it's just basically like an alien spaceship world where you're in the spaceship and you travel to you have like 30 different options of environments to travel to, but you never get out, you're just always inside of it. And in a closed environment like that, my environmental storytelling and design awareness would have said you'd have a lot of trolling because you're trapped and you get that fight-flight response going on.
00:09:22
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
but it's been the opposite. When I'm in there, people are really quiet and just kind of like sitting in circles and sitting around. So I was in there yesterday and I saw a circle and I decided to start filming as partly a protection for myself, but I will always ask permission and delete it if people say no. And it turned out that I had encountered a trolling group that had just been in some kind of fight And they were all quiet because they were contemplating how to how to be friends again, basically. One of these group members is Black, and another one had used trolling and also racism to target this member. And what is really interesting about this, as I found out later, the Black person was not taking offense at this. Sometimes trolling
00:10:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
can be experienced as affection. And the Black person said that they if they didn't take offense at it, then it wasn't racism. I'm not going to argue with that for that moment, and especially that person. But what it made me do, just feeling the tension and the quietness in that group, is i instead of walking up in a large avatar, I switched to a smaller avatar. I made the avatar sit down on the ground and cross its legs. And I just sat outside the circle kind of listening, and eventually,
00:10:53
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
started chiming in just with my voice and like being really moved by what they were saying. Somebody was sitting there and going, it doesn't matter if he didn't take offense at your racism. You're teaching people in this group that that's okay and they could hurt other people. That's not okay. And I was like, you know, I made that sound and they all looked at me. And that was the beginning of the conversation. And then I introduced myself and asked them if I could ask them some questions and they could always at any point can always say no to the filming or answering any questions.
00:11:28
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
We had a great conversation. I'm excited to share that in the next few weeks. So I think it really has to do with approaching these people who maybe sometimes believe that they're teaching you a lesson, right? and
The Role of Anonymity and Avatars in Online Behavior
00:11:44
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
as As a student, as a learner, and especially in virtual spaces, they literally can't physically do anything to you at that moment. And so for me, having worked in inpatient psychiatry and literally have had things thrown at me, I have a very visceral sense inside of me of knowing the difference between like something that is a gamified you know cartoonish environment and what physically it feels like to have wind rushed by your face you know when something's been thrown at you.
00:12:13
gregp
you.
00:12:17
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so first starting out with giving these people the trust that they don't even have towards me, that's how trust is built, is I want to hear your story. I want to understand how you see the world. And that genuine nonjudgmental curiosity, everybody becomes my teachers very quickly.
00:12:41
gregp
Yeah, everyone's got a story and everyone can learn from whatever whatever happens in a situation.
00:12:42
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Everybody's got
00:12:45
gregp
So just to be clear that the group you were sitting around were a group of trolls, where they trolled them like it's like troll wars going on line like different
00:12:48
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:12:53
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah. Yeah. I asked, like, one of my first questions is, you know, for the space that we're in, how often do you see trolling? And the group leader, by all appearances, said, it's always a consistent level when I'm here because I'm the one doing it. And so there's there's definitely a bonding that happens for people on this idea of trolling. But when I really dug into what they considered trolling, for the most part, I would consider this group one of the healthiest trolling groups I've ever met. They did have some constructs of understanding where the line was, where they couldn't cross it. There was enough safety in that group for one of the group members to be challenging when somebody stepped over that line.
00:13:37
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And, uh, I walked away from that going, okay, I now have proof healthy trolling can exist.
00:13:42
gregp
Thank you very much.
00:13:43
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Mostly what they were meaning when they said trolling was being clownish characters and switching into Luigi avatars or whatever, and being very silly and trying to provoke reactions. sometimes I'm sure as it had before I'd gotten there, it can get into dark and really harmful territory. but they were healthy enough to catch when that was happening and challenge each other to do better. And that that's even borderline not a trolling group in my opinion, but it it it qualifies because they qualify themselves in it.
00:14:19
gregp
So let's take a step backwards for our listeners because we're talking about worlds. We're talking about different rooms where you're meeting them.
00:14:24
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:14:25
gregp
Can you kind of explain where all this is happening and how the process that you're taking? I know it's not always going to be the same, right? But but how does it work?
00:14:34
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah. so and And I want to loop back around to your friend's question of you know being trolled in a game, being told he's bad at these games. Part of, I think, the opportunity of what I'm doing in using social virtual reality. So I put a headset on most of the time. I can also access this through a desktop or even mobile device. But when I'm wanting to talk to people that are in that fight flight, that binary mindset, I want to be as as immersed as I can so they can see my calming body language and it's less likely to break and cause somebody to block somebody else. But i I like social virtual reality because it's it's a liminal space. It's an in-between place.
00:15:23
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
when people are taking breaks from playing their games. It's kind of like the the kitchen at the office or the coffee or the water cooler. it it There's no way to win social virtual reality. It's a place people come to communicate and connect and learn about themselves and and be content creators. Like most of the spaces in social virtual reality are created by the the users themselves. And so the combination of the environment, like that alien spaceship world, and then the avatars that you're embodying, you're inside of, you can be animals, you can be people, you can be houseplants, like people are communicating through their avatars constantly and they're changing them as you talk.
00:16:11
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so the interaction of the avatars and the space and then the people inside the avatars is just an incredible social experiment, like fascinating place where people are almost in a little bit of an altered mind state because of all those different stimuli.
00:16:11
gregp
Bye
00:16:30
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And they're willing to have real talk conversations in a way with that anonymity that comes with it that I haven't seen in any kind of gaming space or in physical reality.
00:16:36
gregp
-bye. The fact that they're anonymous is something I always believed was the reason we see a lot of things happen online, right? People have more courage when no one knows who they are. So when they go back to their everyday life, no one's going to judge them based on what they do online. Is this the same kind of theme you you tend to see when you end up talking to these individuals? Is it maybe something else? I also I'm gonna throw up be all over the place here I'm sorry because a lot of the things you say fascinate me it fascinates me that it's a group as well right so they are supporting one another I'm sure you saw a more positive side of trolling with this group but I'm sure there's also negative groups of trolls right and it's interesting to me because it is a community at the end of the day this is they found their like people online so so I threw a lot of stuff out there so yeah
00:17:06
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, i I love the spark with us. So to the first part, you're asking about how how I'm recognizing their behavior.
00:17:41
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Remind me of the first question.
00:17:42
gregp
I guess it's more so what's the who's what's the demographic of a person who's a troll? Is it someone who's really smart at school that maybe gets picked on at school and they decide to turn this behavior around online to be someone else? Is it just some guy that's a bully in schools also a bully online? like Is there a common theme amongst what you're finding of these people who are trolls and how they associate in real life?
00:18:03
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah. The majority, according to both asking these trolls, sometimes their opinions on this and what I've seen is that the trolls and social VR that I've encountered and heard about are usually young men between the ages of 15 and 25. And a huge variety in cognitive ability and skill sets. But the consistency I do here, and I don't know that this is always going to be true, is that most of them have are avid online gamers. And they are playing games that are using binary mindset, zero-sum game thinking. So that's an idea of, in order for me to feel good when I play this game, somebody else has to feel bad.
00:18:58
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And when most of the games that we're exposed to are stimulating that part of our brain, and then we go into a game we can't win, it's a setup for these people to be very uninhibited. and act out on each other because they've just been interacting with all these NPCs and all these people who are trying to gain over their experience. And so I do agree that vulnerability or as you said anonymity, I actually call it vulnerability, can unleash that more courageous and sometimes harmful part.
00:19:42
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
But I think that there's some clear systemic pieces that we can do differently to onboard these people into these spaces and reward them for healthy pro-social behavior.
00:19:56
gregp
And then we talk about the group aspect of it, right? Their power and numbers, whether it's good or bad, but what what do you typically see are the, is it dichotomy of the group? I don't know if that's the right way to go about it. well How do these groups work? Do they, do they bully each other? Do they talk about techniques on how to troll? Like what's going on here?
00:20:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, yeah. And there's a gradient of what I see around what are motivating trolling behavior. The most simple version of it that I want to do the most interventions around are people who come in and don't have that sense of path or belonging. A lot of times in these social immersive spaces, if you go into a public space and you stand there and nobody's going to come to greet you, say hello, invite you to come talk to their small group standing there.
00:20:52
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And what that can instantly do is create a sense of erasure or identity loss.
Motivations and Demographics of Trolls
00:20:58
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Am I even really here? Can people see me? Is the technology working? And so that deficit, that hunger, almost that insult of like, hey, I just won three games and whatever, and nobody even cares that I've arrived.
00:21:11
gregp
Thank
00:21:13
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
can create an anger response and an antagonism response instantly in these people. So some of that lunging that's happening through them is is I think out of some very normal social anxiety of I don't know how to connect here, I don't know what the rules are, I don't know how to win.
00:21:31
gregp
you.
00:21:34
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Eventually the evolution of the troll, if you picture that really famous painting of, you know, we have the apes to the hunched over tech neck human being who types all the time. If we think about the evolution of the troll, there starts to become a reward process of provoking a reaction and feeling empowered to To get somebody else to set that boundary with me. So something I've heard a lot of trolls say is if I If you block me I win if I block you I lose I
00:22:12
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And that is a fascinating frame, a dichotomy frame to me, because what it means is trolls have a hard time understanding gradients and boundaries. And so if the only way for me to not lose is to get you to block me, then the first thing I do when I get into new space is get everyone to block me. And then I've won. I won the room. So incentivizing and teaching people who have more of that social anxiety, what's a gradient of solutions when I feel myself being intruded on is one of the interventions we're starting to like explore.
00:22:52
gregp
So I like that, right? We talked about kind of a brazil resolution resiliency, right? Blocking is a quick resolution, right? but It's not really resiliency. that what what' Can you elaborate a little more on that? I guess like, well, what is resiliency? How do how do we approach it? What does that mean?
00:23:10
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, yeah. So I love that you held on to that from our last conversation that, yeah, no, this is great.
00:23:15
gregp
Got a whole bunch of notes here.
00:23:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
So yeah, what I realized as I was finishing my graduate education was that I had had a few conflict resolution courses, et cetera, but it was all about arriving at the the end. It was all like about reparative and let's just make it better and not actually like recognize how we're growing along the way. And that attachment to the resolution was incredibly like anxiety provoking for me. I would feel a lot of, like what if it doesn't resolve, then we all failed and and that tension just built.
00:23:53
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so resiliency was my own word to start to remind myself that it isn't about the destination. It's about where we're at right now and recognizing the opportunities in every moment to build healthier and more flexible connection. And so then here we go to trolls. And in some respects, we might see what they're doing as very resilient. they They're the most resilient ones in the room. I can, I can block and break all these connections and I'm going to keep coming back. And what this group even yesterday said, which I've heard many times is trolling is a efficient way to find out who your people are in that public space.
00:24:40
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
because your people will laugh at you. They will laugh at you, they will troll you back. It's a way to kind of like signal, I'm ready to fight and I will enjoy that too. Who wants to go? And instead of sitting with the vacuum and the silence and the waiting for somebody to come up and say hello. So how do we build community experiences that are initiating that healthy bonding from the beginning to prevent this really destructive bonding. and And that's actually one of the keys I would say for your friend is approach a troll before they're trolling you and ask them how they are.
Building Resilience Against Bullying
00:25:23
gregp
So when we had our pre call, a lot of what we spoke about resonated to real life and what's happening in schools with bullying. And there's a story I know of where, you know, there's a bully in the school and and people are afraid of that bully. So they just want to be friends with that bully or on that side of the bully. And then the victim is Not the bad guy, right? But the victim loses then, because then all the friends are on the side of the bully. The schools don't do much to the bully, and right? It's a weird time, right?
00:25:55
gregp
A lot of this relates to real life as well. And how do you, and I know you just said you talked to the bully, you approach the bully, but like, how do you even start to approach, and I know you can't solve that, right?
00:26:07
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Okay.
00:26:08
gregp
but like in an online game, you can ban, you can knock out, right?
00:26:11
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Okay.
00:26:12
gregp
But like, what do you do when you approach these situations where like, people are afraid of the bully, like, and I don't know if there's an answer here.
00:26:13
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Okay.
00:26:19
gregp
And I don't know if this goes anywhere. But like, how do you approach that?
00:26:22
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Well, one of the interventions that anybody can do is offering genuine curiosity, even about things that you kind of know already. and I've been called out by a couple semi trolls who have watched me before and been like, I know what you're doing there. So basically an example would be somebody is using a bigoted or racist or whatever meme as their avatar.
00:26:43
gregp
Thank
00:26:52
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
It's just this flat panel with a meme on it. And even though I can pretty quickly a assess who it's targeting and why it's provoking reactions, I will be very dumb about it. I will just be like, wow, I'm so interested in this.
00:27:08
gregp
you.
00:27:10
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Tell me more about what this means. Why do people laugh at this? Who wouldn't laugh at this? And I think I know those answers, but I want to hear it from their perspective. And by actually kind of dragging them with my you know insatiable curiosity through it, they're going to very likely hesitate before using that again next time, because it's going to recall up all this information we learned that was in their subconscious about why they're doing what they're doing. So curiosity is a very powerful troll our tool for trolls, especially in immersive spaces.
00:27:47
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
I see that emotion as one of the most deficient emotions in immersive reality. If curiosity was oxygen, we would all be suffocating. And so bringing really like genuine, like constant, and somewhat slowed down curiosity, they would basically have to block me to get me to stop asking questions.
00:27:58
gregp
Bye.
00:28:09
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And then in their rule set, they lose. Right? So what they need to figure out with me is how to get me excited and not asking questions and actually laughing. And that becomes a goal for them. How can I actually get you entertained? And then I use my laughter to validate the socially constructive ways that they are, quote, trolling.
00:28:31
gregp
It's fascinating. I want to come back to this curiosity question. I love it. But usually halfway through, I do this fireball around. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.
00:28:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
But yeah, go
00:28:40
gregp
You ready for it?
Quick Personal Q&A
00:28:41
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
for it.
00:28:41
gregp
What did you have for breakfast?
00:28:44
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Cereal, life cereal.
00:28:46
gregp
Life. but What's your dream vacation?
00:28:49
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Ooh, that's interesting. I think it's going and going to an elephant sanctuary in in Africa.
00:28:58
gregp
Very cool. What is the last game you played? Not counting your horizons.
00:29:03
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
a Yeah, let's see here. I play a game called Puzzling Places in virtual reality, where you you build three-dimensional puzzles with 3D pieces. And sometimes these puzzles take me eight hours, and there are 1,000 pieces.
00:29:22
gregp
Nice. If you were to go to a bar, what is the drink you're going to order?
00:29:27
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
o Hot toddy is my default, and because it feels mesin medicinal, but also give me a little buzz.
00:29:31
gregp
Nice.
00:29:36
gregp
There you go. Last question would be what is the last show you binged watched?
00:29:42
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Oh, a third body problem.
00:29:45
gregp
Okay, there you go. You're off the hot seat.
Deep Canvassing and Defusing Trolls
00:29:48
gregp
so I love this concept of curiosity. It's like curiosity killed the cat in my mind. And you're almost, I feel like you're, you're going to, for lack of better words, piss off the person who's trying to troll you when you start saying, Hey, tell me more, learn. I want to hear more about that. And I don't know if this is going to go to a question. It's just, I love the idea. It's almost like kill them with kindness, right? Like, Oh, tell me more, tell me with more.
00:30:07
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:30:09
gregp
And I love that you said. the only way for them to stop you is for them to block you and then they lose you're playing their game in the nicest way possible.
00:30:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:19
gregp
And you're going to win it and I love how that kind of just it makes sense that you can even see that working in real life.
00:30:21
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:30:24
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:30:24
gregp
But again, you just need lots of people in real life to kind of be working together to make that happen.
00:30:28
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
yeah
00:30:29
gregp
So is this and again, my naiveness here, right?
00:30:29
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:30:32
gregp
Is this a certain type of study that's going on right now? Is there a name for this type of thing that's going on?
00:30:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
You know, there's a concept called deep canvassing, which I haven't looked into a lot, but I've had multiple people refer me to that as what they recognize in physical reality that's happening. And to my understanding, this is a group of people that are approaching, especially young people who are voters and and just deeply asking them about their beliefs and their politics and what they understand about our government structure.
00:31:08
gregp
Thanks.
00:31:08
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and our politicians and following that conversation and just asking genuine sincere and deep questions until there's a shared mutual understanding of how much they actually have thought through these things versus they're just you know consuming propaganda media and and having a knee-jerk response. And I think it does cross over in that respect of you know my genuine curiosity has been How much are these people aware of how much harm they could be doing? Not always doing, but they could be doing and many times are. And not surprised, I have found that many times they're not. In their minds, they're having fun and the consent has been given by entering that space at all.
Distinguishing Trolling from Bullying and Toxicity
00:31:56
gregp
Interesting.
00:31:56
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and And so then my question my first question is, what is trolling? Because within the community, harassment is not a word that is ever used for the most part. Trolling is what people use to justify and explain a lot of different kinds of behavior. So what is trolling? The second question is, what is the difference between trolling and bullying? And that is usually a doorway that leads to a lot of answers and a lot of hmm's and ha's and It's hard to define that for a lot of people.
00:32:26
gregp
you
00:32:29
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And then the next question after that is, how do you recognize when trolling has turned to bullying? What are the nonverbal body language signs and verbal body language signs that tells you somebody is being hurt right now? And that question by discussing that, especially in a group format, is heightening the awareness of the entire group on how to recognize when they've gone too far, even if they're just having fun.
00:32:56
gregp
Something we spoke about earlier on our pre-call, right, was... trolling versus toxicity, right? And I got the whole idea that trolling is not appreciated, but maybe it's not the worst thing in the world, but then you become toxic. And that's when things go. And when you're talking about bullying, that's kind of what I'm imagining in my mind is you're a bully, you're toxic. But in can in your words, what is the difference between trolling versus becoming toxic? and And is that when the problems begin or can they become problems earlier?
00:33:29
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, the word toxic for me just means too much of one thing and not enough of the other things. And so if a troll learns to feel a reward, a dopamine response, a sense of empowerment by watching somebody else have less power, withdraw, block them, now we're getting into a toxic response cycle. That's that's an antisocial behavior that is being rewarded.
00:34:00
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so the question is, how far does that spread? Am I now bonding with other people just to increase that kind of reaction and see it not just in an individual, but in groups of people? and my targeting groups of people based on their identity, and well, individually it's not personal to me, so I'm not gonna call it bullying, which is mostly what people differentiate the two. Trolling is not personal, bullying is personal. So it's not personal to me, but I can also say I didn't cause all that harm. If there was harm, it wasn't me.
Alternative Strategies for Managing Trolls
00:34:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so it's a way to withdraw into the identity of the trolling group, which in some respects resembles gangs and physical reality or cliques, but also not take any responsibility for my part in building healthy inclusive community.
00:34:57
gregp
Interesting. You know, we're we're in a world where community managers are blocking people, banning people online.
00:35:06
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:35:07
gregp
And kind of your your thoughts on that were where it doesn't solve the problem. In a world where it's tough, right? Companies want to make money. They need people online. They need to build a community. These trolls are online. These trolls are our community building, but they're also destroying the community as well in a way from the inside out.
00:35:24
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:35:25
gregp
If if you were to sit down kind of with a bunch of community managers and and kind of talk through, hey, what's a process that might be a little more successful and maybe that's not the right word I want to use right but more a little more effective to help reduce that like is there some low hanging fruit some easy to implement techniques that people can use maybe say hey this might be a better way than just saying band band band
00:35:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Mm hmm. Yeah, so I think about banning as the very last resort and that many times if I've had to ban somebody out of my community, which has only happened less than, you know, five times, probably more like two or three,
00:36:11
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
It's because the system that I'm working with them does not have the capacity to support this individual in a way that doesn't cost the rest of the group too much. And so as a leader, and at times in community management consulting roles, that feels really like I failed. It feels like our system has failed. We are excluding. And so what I like to invite community managers to do is try to make patterns out of the people that you're blocking and banning and think about what would it take?
00:36:42
gregp
you
00:36:48
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
What kind of resources would it take for us to be able to include this person also in a healthy way? and and put that on the wish list, the 10 year wish list of we're gonna campaign for this and make enough space. And so there's never this sense of that person is absolutely black and white, 100% bad and good riddance to them. There's an acknowledgement from a transformational justice frame that we need to build a better system that includes people in a healthier way.
00:37:19
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And so when when we set that kind of boundary of like, not now, but maybe later, this person or somebody like them could be included in this community. Now we're expanding the frame to allow for a gradient of solutions and a recognition that we don't want to get to that. We sealed the door off place. And so how do I use my power as a community manager to recognize the smaller interventions that can happen? For example, a lot of community managers don't realize the power of the emojis they use. And by default, because it seems like the right professional thing, they will only like things. They will rarely dislike things or provide any other kinds of emojis. And thinking about it from the, do I like it personally? And do we love it professionally? How am I using my emojis to
00:38:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
reinforce healthy behaviors, including in people who are mostly showing unhealthy behaviors. So let's say eight out of 10 responses somebody is making is just causing chaos in the community.
00:38:32
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Two of those responses might actually be somewhat healthy or at least not that harmful. How am I using my emojis from that position of power to reinforce the ones I want more of? And that's one example. Another example is utilizing community leaders and moderators to have have a pool of people that they're keeping their eye on and they're doing their best to try to plug them in differently into resources they need and supporting community leaders and moderators to to do that effectively and not burn out doing that.
00:38:32
gregp
Thanks.
00:39:09
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
is another piece. Another thing is I think we go way too quick to warnings and to threats. And I think that offering a note, especially a note that is just about curiosity. Hey, how are you doing? Would you like to have a conversation? I'd like you to talk to this person who's in the community and get back to me and tell me what you learned. Sometimes trolls are just really reflecting the missing gaps in the system and our potential moderators, their potential leaders that just have not been called to step up in a healthy way.
Impact of VR on Real-Life Dynamics
00:39:47
gregp
While you by title are not a community manager, right you are putting some of those those tools that i you just mentioned to use when you do go into their worlds and you approach them and you make those conversations. Have you found that, and I don't know if you have the percentage, right but have you found that most of these individuals are willing to talk or willing to have that communication or are most of them just like, no.
00:40:08
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
I was expecting best case scenario that I was going to find maybe three out of 10 trolls who are engaging in some kind of antagonistic harmful behavior in front of me would be willing to talk to me. I found it's more like eight or nine out of 10 are willing to stop what they're doing and answer questions and go through sometimes a 45 minute conversation. And that has kind of broken my heart to realize like how many of these people are reachable this quickly and how it's like the reverse percentile as far as how people estimate how bad these people are, how toxic they are. A lot of this I believe has to do with identity loss more than it has to do with purposeful sadism.
00:40:57
gregp
It's crazy. That's amazing. And that's fantastic to hear that success rate, because who would think that, that that that many people are willing to talk. And it turns out, I mean, Most people, my podcast, are are excited to talk to someone. When someone's willing to give it them an ear and have a conversation, most people want to kind of just spill their guts in it.
00:41:11
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:41:13
gregp
And it's awesome that you do that. But this next topic I want to talk about, just give a heads up that this might have a trigger warning. We're going to address kind of a social social suicide.
00:41:21
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:41:23
gregp
It might be in the next five minutes. I don't know yet, but I suggest a trigger warning here. So this one you kind of talked to me about in the pre-call, but it kind of boggled my mind and I'd love to learn a little more about it. but You had an incident where you kind of saw that involved suicide in VR. Can you kind of explain or potential?
00:41:37
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
yeah
00:41:39
gregp
Can you explain what that looks like in VR? What that means, I guess, for lack of better words, and how do you address it in those types of environments?
00:41:48
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
I can definitely say the first part. The second part is is pending and will take a lot of people more clever than me to to solve for. But yeah, a few weeks ago I was in a social space in virtual reality and somebody that I was familiar with and part of this community group and got into an argument with a couple other creators. So all three of them were creators. And it escalated very quickly. I just happened to walk into it not knowing what I was getting involved in. And this person pulled out a gun in physical reality. and I couldn't visually see the gun, but I could hear all the sounds that confirmed what they were doing. You heard a drawer open.
00:42:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
you heard the place where the bullets are put inside you know open up and then you heard bullets being put in and they were
00:42:42
gregp
it's Yeah.
00:42:50
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
very actively saying, I'm just going to end my life. And at one point, even said, I'm going to play Russian roulette, and we're going to see what happens. And and I heard the trigger pulled several times. and And this is all in a setting where you know there were four different anime character avatars that were humanoids. There was a dog and a cat on the ground. there was a blob of slime that was about the size of a salad bowl.
00:43:24
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And the absurdity of this serious of a situation happening with with those kinds of presentations was mind boggling to me.
00:43:35
gregp
Good.
00:43:36
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And I've had years of work in crisis calls where I've taken very similar situations and and navigated that with people trying to support and emergency services. So I think that the immersive quality that is advertised in the world about virtual reality and gaming is like, it feels so real. It feels like you're there. And then this was a moment where I got to see a whole other level of consequence and and how deeply that can be absorbed when when the spaces you're in are not believable like physical reality and you can't control what's happening.
00:44:15
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
This person is anonymous. We could not even pretend to call anybody to address what was happening.
00:44:22
gregp
you
00:44:23
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
very scary situation and and and unfortunately some of what he was doing there would be considered by some to be trolling in that he was provoking a reaction from that group while also very dangerously threatening his own life.
00:44:41
gregp
When you were in a situation like that, A, my first question should quick question was, is this another one of those troll groups? And what are the other individuals saying at this time? Are they all freaking out? Or is this just like, hey, were this is normal?
00:44:57
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
So this was a creator group. It's actually one of the more healthy and you know their their number one rule is kindness in this group. And they're usually very, very good about addressing harmful behaviors or antagonistic behaviors very directly and genuinely. And so it's been one of the more powerful groups I've ever been in that makes a safe haven for a lot of different types of people. It's a very diverse group. The people that were in that circle were a lot of the moderators of the group. So they were the most sage and experienced and the group leader was present. And there was a very practiced, what looked like to me, ability for this group to almost speak as if it was one voice in counteracting the black and white thinking that was leading to this suicidal behavior.
00:45:52
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
So, and and I was helping with that when I could, and I had evidence to counteract it. And and this is a dicey territory when somebody is in a black and white place, because actually like arguing with them about what they believe can actually escalate it. But with the right compassion, especially in a group format, it's it's hard it's it's There's an ability to genuinely knock some of those beliefs down that are providing the supporting evidence to take one's life because there's a group agreement and that kind of out votes whatever this person is believing. So there was just like at one point this person said, I wonder what death is like.
00:46:35
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And two or three people instantly responded, there's nothing there. It's complete. It's a complete void. It's not worth it.
Bridge Makers Initiative
00:46:44
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And just like within, you know, 15 seconds, very grounded, soft replies, but very clear and certain to kind of keep him from going, you know, there's a reward, there's a game on the other side of this action.
00:46:59
gregp
You know, there's a lot of positive in that story with as much negative in that story and how a group can come together and go against the behavior and try and talk someone out of something. And I find it fascinating. And as we talk, you know, a lot of this, again, it relates to real life to me. And I guess that was the goal of VR. Let's bring us all together in a real life situation. And in a way, it excites me that like, wow, we are
00:47:22
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:47:25
gregp
getting their younger generations as well that are playing VR more than I am. like It's happening, right? And it's crazy, but it also scares me because some of the the worst behavior that you see online is seeping into real life as well. And it's becoming this gray area that I like to talk about. All right, how do you separate the social media, the gaming from real life and understanding that You know, I play games with my son and he plays games where he dies. And I'm just thinking, like, does he know the difference that when you die in real life, it's not the same as dying in a video game?
00:47:57
gregp
Like, it's silly to think about, but but these concepts of, hey, I've been playing these games for so long. Like, i every kid's invincible when they're young. though I don't know. I'm just rambling here. And I find it fascinating.
00:48:05
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
you
00:48:06
gregp
And I think the work that you're doing is fascinating. Can you give us an example of how communities, myself or anyone listening, how we can help or be a part of this project to make make
00:48:17
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
one
00:48:18
gregp
a healthier community online.
00:48:20
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, no, thank you. Well, I think the easiest piece that anybody can do is go to our website or go to our YouTube channel, The Troll Project, and watch videos and share them. And ideally, share them with a statement of what you would do or what your answer is to the questions being asked. Like, how does this change you? Because this is a movement first. It's a movement for us to own this entertainment space. whether it be gaming spaces or social VR spaces, own this differently as global citizens and recognize that we all have a responsibility to sacrifice our attention and time in a way that's healthy for us to grow ourselves and become more conflict resilient as human beings. Games can teach us conflict resiliency, but at what cost? Depending on the game and how long we play it for, what is it teaching us about how we can modify human belonging?
00:49:19
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and human feelings. so So the first piece is participate what by watching these videos and sharing them. The second piece would be hire me to be a conflict resiliency consultant for your game. we We're building interventions that could be really helpful to a lot of communities. And this model that I base a lot of this work off of and has some game prototypes and developments. And it is an opportunity to take
00:49:53
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
spaces that have a lot of conflict and clone them mirror them in a different space and and teach them of these interpersonal skills that maybe these trolls these harmful you know bad actors as they say which is a dichotomy of bad good but they they might know how to get along with people but when they're really really excited and anonymous those skills just fly out the window and so how do we take the spaces where they're their behaving the worst and offer them a new path through that space and reward them completing that path.
00:50:30
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and and give them that support to be healthy and constructive in their community behaviors. We need funding for this project, and we also need amplifiers, like I said, and any any help that direction. As you said, this is not about social virtual reality. This is a lens for us to see ourselves and see the places where we looked away, where we saw harmful behavior and we looked away or we joined, we laughed, we sniggered, we hearted it, we whatever. And for any time that we've looked away, this is a place to do it different and join in a movement to own these
00:51:11
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
incredibly privileged spaces where we have the time and the safety and the power in our houses and whatever to spend, own that differently and work to grow ourselves into better human beings.
00:51:25
gregp
is there anything else
00:51:27
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
well, so there's one piece that is just literally being born this week and it's called bridge makers, which is kind of phase two of the troll project. And this is where we're interviewing and building relationships with community leaders and, designers and space builders for how do we create spaces that give pathways to would be trolls so that they don't end up in these organized games. doing so much destructive behavior. And so for some people, they're going to lean in and look at the troll project and go, yeah, i want to I want to help. This sounds exciting and terrifying and whatever. But there's a whole group of people that are not going to be reached by this name or this idea. For a variety of reasons, they're not going to want to go near it.
00:52:16
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
The bridge makers is for them, which is people who want to maybe work more behind the scenes, but also create community education experiences that teach groups how to maintain and build healthy dynamics. So we have a whole curriculum and we're now organizing environmental designers and community leaders who want to go through these trainings. And this is an invitation to get in very early in this planning process.
00:52:44
gregp
What I like about that is, you know, I often think that 90% of the people online are quiet and you have 10% people that are the trolls, right? The bullies or whatever you want to look at it as. And this sounds like a great way to take that 90% that don't want to speak up but want to give them help and try and help, but not necessarily have their their name associated to it, for lack of better words.
00:52:58
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
wow
00:53:03
gregp
and I think it's a great way for someone to take that anonymous step to help a problem that that does exist out there.
00:53:03
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Absolutely. Yeah, and everybody can provide some kind of direction and leadership. So bridge makers is for us to all grow as leaders in our citizenship of our games and our our planet. And how do we know that the bridge is going to break as we make it and become resilient with that process? That's the goal of bridge makers. It will break. In fact, as this movement grows for bridge makers, there will be a counter movement that somebody starts called bridge breakers.
00:53:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
to to actually like, you know, tear it down.
00:53:41
gregp
You're patenting that.
00:53:42
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
how do we How do we actually know this is coming and give them testing ability and give them access that in a healthy way to help us grow better?
00:53:52
gregp
That's evolution of gaming, right? You're going to create one thing to protect the problem, and then the spammers, the trolls, whatever you want to call it, are going to then find a way around it, and it's just continuously growing.
00:53:59
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah, that's it.
00:54:00
gregp
and That's what I love about everything you're doing, Ruth.
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:54:02
gregp
i think I think you have such a great blend between what's happening online in real life. And I think what you're doing is addressing more than one problem that exists in this world. And I think it's such a creative and amazing way to look at it. And every time we talk, I end up with a notebook full of notes. So it I love it. And I'm excited to kind of dig through it again and learn this stuff.
00:54:22
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
yeah know
00:54:22
gregp
So first of all, thank you so much for your time today.
00:54:23
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
man one
00:54:26
gregp
I loved this conversation. connected with me on so many notes.
00:54:30
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
you
00:54:31
gregp
I'd like to still stand by the fact that I don't think I'm a troll all the time, only to my one friend who did get bullied because because I like to troll on my friend.
00:54:36
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yes. Yes. yay
00:54:40
gregp
But I do really appreciate this. This was an eye opening, an ear opening, a mind opening conversation.
00:54:43
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yay.
00:54:45
gregp
So thank you for that. Before we do end up today, and today, is there anything else that you want to share?
00:54:53
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Let's see here. I guess I would ask the question for your audience that I ask everybody. So I'm initiating anybody who hears this into the troll project by asking you the final question I ask everyone, whether you're a leader, a moderator, a bystander, a troll, is I'm going to ask you this. If a troll lives under a bridge, what is on the other side of the bridge? There are no wrong answers. Just go with your gut. What's on the other side?
00:55:23
gregp
I feel like a fun open world gaming environment that you just go in and be yourself and do what you want to do.
00:55:30
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Beautiful. OK. So it's kind of the future is what you think is on the other side of the bridge. and Yeah.
00:55:38
gregp
I tend to think, you know, I love playing games and sometimes you hit this hurdle, which might be a mean person online or a bully and you just got to get past that and and you can go back to having fun and playing that game.
00:55:38
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
OK.
00:55:49
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
That's interesting. OK. So it's about that life-death life cycle is you might have a battle here of sorts, but there's always gonna be a rebirth on the other side of that battle.
00:56:01
gregp
Yeah, you know, you play a game and if everyone's playing that game, there's good bound to be negative personalities in that game, right? And you just got to conquer them, face them and then keep going.
00:56:13
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Ask them very genuine questions.
00:56:13
gregp
by
00:56:16
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and And then keep going. Yeah.
00:56:18
gregp
Yeah.
00:56:18
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Thank you. Yeah. I've heard some amazing answers. I think the latest one that I heard that was really useful for me is a lead moderator said that what is on the other side of the bridge is everything that we are not willing to face that's under the bridge. So we build the bridge to avoid a thing because we want to get to the other stuff.
00:56:41
gregp
and interesting
00:56:41
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And that that's been a mind bending thought for me.
00:56:46
gregp
Now that you put it that way, it's fascinating, right? Why why even have the bridge take the bridge down and it can front the troll and then.
00:56:51
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Exactly. Yeah. Well, what they what they actually said is maybe it's less about where we arrive at the end of the journey and more about how we get there together.
00:57:01
gregp
It's beautiful.
00:57:02
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
And that really touched my heart. Yeah.
00:57:05
gregp
Dr.
00:57:05
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
Yeah.
00:57:06
gregp
Ruth Diaz, thank you so much again for your time today. We'll have links to Ruth's LinkedIn, Troll Project, all the information where you can be a part of it, be a help. We'll post all information about everything she's working on online. Again, Ruth, thank you so much for coming out today, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
00:57:20
Ruth Diaz_ Psy_D_
and and Absolutely. Yay.
00:57:24
gregp
All right.