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The Next Frontier in Game Development: AI-Powered Testing with Shaun Laker
49 Plays10 days ago
Episode Summary
Shaun Laker joins Greg to discuss his journey in the gaming industry, from breaking into QA at EA to leading major AAA projects. They dive into the evolution of producers in game development, the importance of community management, and how Game Guardians is using AI to revolutionize QA testing. Shaun also shares his entrepreneurial challenges and insights into the future of game development.
Key Takeaways & Timestamps
1. Breaking Into the Gaming Industry
03:27 – A high school gym teacher introduced Shaun to EA, setting him on his career path.
04:26 – Started in QA at EA, working on games like James Bond: Everything or Nothing and NBA Street.
05:41 – Early QA days felt like Grandma’s Boy—pizza, long hours, and tight-knit teams.
2. Lessons from AAA Studios
07:33 – Every studio operates differently, but profitability often dictates creative freedom.
08:17 – Studios like Respawn thrived due to strong leadership and a focus on quality.
17:48 – Key lessons: Avoid crunch, communicate clearly, and establish strong development pillars.
3. The Role of Community & Engagement
14:18 – Community management varies—Plants vs. Zombies had a supportive fanbase, while Gears of War was more intense.
16:36 – Community managers are the frontline of player feedback, taking in both praise and criticism.
17:03 – A strong community presence can make or break a game’s long-term success.
4. Game Guardians & AI in QA
21:26 – Game Guardians was founded to tackle inefficiencies in game QA.
22:51 – AI-driven automation solves major QA challenges: reducing repetitive testing, supporting live-service games, and catching hard-to-find bugs.
24:13 – AI isn’t replacing QA testers but augmenting their capabilities, allowing them to focus on higher-value tasks.
5. Entrepreneurship & Personal Growth
26:38 – The idea for Game Guardians took shape after Shaun’s layoff from Respawn.
30:51 – The biggest struggle as a founder: learning to unplug and avoid burnout.
50:20 – Advice to his younger self: Pick battles wisely and set better boundaries to maintain mental health.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Player Driven Podcast. Here's what you're about to listen to on today's episode.
Guest Introduction: Sean Laker
00:00:05
Speaker
We are chatting with Sean Laker. He is the founder of Game Guardians. We have a whole conversation, things talking about the evolution of game development roles. What's what in a studio? What's it mean? What do you need to know how to do?
The Role of Game Guardians and Future of QA
00:00:18
Speaker
We talk about Game Guardians, what they do and the future of q a And we talked about the changing landscape of the gaming industry. We're seeing a big rise of indies, AA titles, and how is that going to change the industry?
00:00:29
Speaker
It's a really fun conversation. Sean is an awesome guest. He has a lot of fun, and I hope you guys enjoy this episode.
00:00:40
Speaker
Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Player Driven Podcast.
Sean Laker's Background
00:00:44
Speaker
Greg here. Today, we are joined by Sean Laker. He is the founder of Game Guardians and has such a great experience at Respawn Electronic Arts, like The Coalition, so many cool gaming companies. We're going to learn a lot about gaming, what happens on the inside of some studios, about Game Guardians, what they're doing. I'm really excited.
00:01:01
Speaker
Sean, thank you so much for joining us today. Anything you want to say about yourself? ah That was pretty good. Hype job, Greg. Thank you. No, I love making video games. I've been doing this for almost half my life now, just over 20 years. So excited to chat about it and dive into some of the questions you've got here. You've got some great ones. So yeah, let's just... I've loaded Sean up with 2 million questions here. So everyone buckle up. But before we get to any of this...
Inspiration from Duke Nukem 3D
00:01:26
Speaker
I'm severely underprepared for the record. So we'll have fun. Being unprepared is the best. It means you're going to freak out and be on your A game.
00:01:34
Speaker
Before we get even started into it, what was the game that you played that kind of clicked and saying, I want to be in this industry. This is what I want to do. ah It was definitely, okay, yeah, awesome question. ah Definitely Duke Nukem 3D, right? um ah The pipe bombs and all the ah graphic ah violence, let's just be honest and call it what it was.
00:01:56
Speaker
um ah and And particularly the modding system. So that was the first time I got into like tweaking a game was Duke Nukem, and they had confiles, I think they were called. And you can modify like all the core weapons and and enemies and and just have fun and see it's like a little tinkering factory. It was it was incredible.
00:02:15
Speaker
So that I would say that would be where it kind of all started for sure. I tried to make a paintball mod, actually, I think, Duke ball. We called it Duke ball. yeah as Duke Nukem was what, like mid-90s, right?
00:02:28
Speaker
oh gosh, yeah. yeah yeah So how how does one even start to do modding back then when the internet it wasn't as big as it was back then? How how do you research this stuff? How do how do you tinker? Holy, lee how did I even know those things existed? um ah Great question. I think there was still, we had ah do did we have the internet back then? I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think I had some access to it and I learned what those files meant, but I think the devs also put them in a really accessible spot and with really like plain readable English ah ah ways to tinker. So it would like, it plain in plain an English, listed out the weapons and
00:03:10
Speaker
and some of the enemies. So it was it was basic stuff, but I would credit the devs, I think, for maybe ah ah doing a great job of like serving it up to players. But you're right, like such a weird time to like how to even discover the opportunity to do that. Gosh.
00:03:27
Speaker
yeah I would play Doom 2 and I remember I found cheat codes and it changed my life when I found these cheat codes with like no clipping or anything. it's just like Thinking back then, like how did they figure this stuff out? Was it like the old Prima guides? You know you would buy them at EB Games or wherever it was and figure that stuff out?
00:03:46
Speaker
Totally. ah ah What was it? my My house was filled with Nintendo Powers. we got like ah I wish I kept them all. Gosh, that would have been cool. Nintendo Powers was like our original magazine. And then I moved to graduated to PC Gamer when I got into PC gaming. But those were kind of my, I guess, non-internet print media sources for sure.
00:04:06
Speaker
So you have such cool experience. You've worked on such notable franchises and and games that most people have grown to love over these years or or or hate after time. But um how did you you first got into your your position doing QA? Can you kind of explain to me how you actually got into the industry when that time began?
Entering the Gaming Industry
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, ah super thoughtful teacher started it. I think I was about 13. My gym teacher says, Sean, you love video games. do you want to tour EA? ah Because EA is based out of Vancouver. She was friends with somebody who worked there.
00:04:40
Speaker
um So I won't do any specific shout outs, but two very helpful people. um who introed me to to the idea of that that job line. had probably no idea what I'd be doing otherwise, in all honesty.
00:04:53
Speaker
um He took me a tour of EA campus, EA Burnaby, and i was like, okay, doing it, working here. And i think like six, I was going to go do schooling to do 3D.
00:05:05
Speaker
And then some QA roles popped up about six months out of high school. I went for it and I got in. So yeah. How was the QA experience?
00:05:16
Speaker
Uh, the, like the, in 2003 era QA. Is it like grandma's boy? you ever see grandma's boy? and It's probably the closest it ever was to grandma's boy. Let's put it, let's put it that way. Um, it was special. Like honestly, some of my best friends still from that period and oldest friends from that period, but it was, uh, it was called the, uh, international house of QA. Uh, um,
00:05:40
Speaker
And it was at the bottom floor of the big campus. And it was like one open space with a ton of cubicles. And it just smelled of pizza and other smells. But it was ah it a pretty magical time. EA was blowing up. And they hired a bunch of really ah cool, fun people. And we were just testing games and having fun. And yeah, it was it was pretty great. um That was, gosh.
00:06:07
Speaker
I started on James Bond, Everything or Nothing. and tested a little bit of Tricky ah and a little bit of NBA Street, I guess. It was a pretty sweet little era for for the games that were being tested.
00:06:20
Speaker
That's awesome. those are ah You're speaking to my childhood here, and I love it. It's prime gaming on the N64 back then. Totally, totally. and We were just talking about Battletoads the other day with a friend. yeah Great times. you know You kind of wish you could go back in time and and replay those games when you were a kid. You didn't have to worry about DLCs, as long as you had some cheat codes, you're good to go.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, Nintendo Power is ready to go. I got to be honest with you, though. like I have a hard time even still focusing on retro games. you know Even my attention span has changed. you know like I go back and play those and they don't.
00:06:55
Speaker
Nostalgia is there, but yeah, you know I got to admit, like it you know we ah give like kids a hard time for not loving our old games. but you know it's ah We played Goldeneye not that long ago, and I still love Goldeneye, but it's just not what you remember it being.
00:07:10
Speaker
You have one stick, you don't aim with the other stick. It's just like, this was peak gaming and it still kind of is, but it's also not. we would We had one guy in our friend group who knew all the spawn points and would just throw proximity mines at all the spawn points. the first person to die would just keep dying. Lovely. Lovely.
00:07:28
Speaker
So looking at your LinkedIn, right? First one I see here that is the coalition, right? You're at Microsoft, you're at EA. ah I don't know how to ask this question. So what is, I guess you went to- Which one was the best? No, I can't. I mean, we're going to get to that. We're going to pry it out one way or another, but you every studio operates differently. You hear from the outside looking in, right? Like Microsoft, maybe they control their franchises too much and and or maybe that's the EA problem that people have always talked about. EA has too many hands in there.
00:07:57
Speaker
Then you hear Bioware, so one thing, not the other. I don't want to start any speculation, any rumors, stuff like that. Can you tell me about kind of the things that you've learned from the different studios? you don't even have to name the studio, but what are those learnings that you learned working for a AAA studio?
00:08:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I am a sucker for AAA, for sure. So, um you know, we had a really special setup of the coalition. Like Rod was brought on as you know, him and Cliffy were the OGs of Gears, right?
00:08:24
Speaker
And Rod was very much given all the all the space needed to start the studio and build the game. So, yeah. I think I've had very positive experiences, mostly because I've been fortunate to be on games that have done well and performed well. you know I think when things get tougher, that can change. And and rightfully so, like any business would need to be discussed if you know not working. So um I think I've been lucky to see the brighter side of things just due to the the the quality and caliber games I've worked on.
00:08:56
Speaker
ah Because it's, you know, when things are going well, la Respawn. Respawn is another great example where they just know how to make great games, right? So let them keep doing it. It's ah another good example where I've been really lucky.
00:09:08
Speaker
um You know, I've heard things where that can change, but really comes down to, you know, is is the product profitable? Is the business profitable? And that can dictate a lot of how your situation is going, right?
Evolving Role of a Producer
00:09:24
Speaker
You have... Most of your roles seem to be based around producer. Can you explain to us kind of what is the role of a producer in a studio? Good question, because producers evolved for people like me, for sure, as kind of like this this early 2000s producer type.
00:09:41
Speaker
um Back then, there wasn't product managers. Those didn't exist in our space. There was kind of designers, ah producers, DDs or project managers. And a lot of times the producers were the designers. So it's kind of this very... ah foggy area of ownership it was the dream role right because you kind of get a talk games and just solve problems and kind of do it all like it was uh it was very different 2005 2006 i think the producer definition um and some studios still have that role but it's um rare i would say and because um
00:10:22
Speaker
you know, there's the product role has has exploded, right? Product management is, and rightfully so, it's it ah makes a whole lot of sense is everywhere now from live services decisions through, you know, marketing. So it's, um yeah, I think a lot of what that producer role was kind of cannibalized by by this new new role of um product management.
00:10:48
Speaker
um But they they still exist. ah But I would say majority ah majority is ah producers are development directors or project managers, I think, across the industry is the standard you'll find out.
00:11:00
Speaker
It's funny. I'm hearing more and more. like i went to school and I failed C++. plus plus and I was like, screw this. I can't go into gaming. But the more I hear people are project managers, product managers, right? like People that are running these entire games may not know how to code. They just know how to do product management. They know how to handle a whole bunch of teams, make sure the teams stay aligned. They hit their deadlines. ah And it's fascinating to hear how... how It's very reminiscent, not reminiscent. It very much matches other industries and how they're set up as well. right You could go into FinTech. You could go into e-commerce.
00:11:34
Speaker
They have product managers. They have all that. Gaming is the same thing, except they call them different titles. And I think it's fascinating. That's one of the reasons I love this podcast is that you learn that these are the skill sets that these people use. And it's just fascinating to hear how these games are made.
00:11:48
Speaker
And there's there's a ton of variety in the product role. There's technical product managers, there's you know ah non-technical. Yeah, it's's there's, I think, a giant spectrum of of definitions across that itself now too.
Experience with Skate and Plants vs Zombies
00:11:58
Speaker
So um for sure, a product is exciting a role, and especially with how things are going and engineering being an interesting ah role to go after in the future but there's always going to need somebody who's setting a goal so to speak and you know product has been that so um yeah great space I think to get into with how things are changing for for sure so can you talk about some of the games that you have worked on and maybe the experiences around them
00:12:26
Speaker
Uh, sure. Where to start? I'll talk about, uh, uh, I'll talk about, my second big gig, uh, which was pretty special and still like the proudest piece, I think, uh, which is the skate, skate franchise.
00:12:38
Speaker
Um, so I got really lucky. And, uh, after, ah working on SSX on tour, I was asked if I would want to go work downtown at, uh, EA black box, working on a skateboarding game, uh, having come from the snowboarding game. And I was like, uh, yeah, absolutely. Um,
00:12:55
Speaker
So a punk kid ah going downtown to the Sweet Studio in this really cool production role when Skate was like a blue box guy. We called blue box guy skating like a prototype world. It was, ah yeah, really neat. Meanwhile, we're on the top floor of the PricewaterhouseCooper building and like all the suits are getting off all below us. it was It was awesome.
00:13:16
Speaker
ah Yeah, special time there for sure. I bet. And i know all the internet's been buzzing recently about the skate alpha tests that have been coming out or beta tests. don't know what they're on right now. And feel like we've been waiting forever for that game. or Are you still in contact with any of these guys or is it all new studio basically at this point?
00:13:34
Speaker
No, some of the, like Cuz and Darren are still leading the charge. They were on the team back then. There's some new faces and old faces, you know, and the team has evolved over time for sure too, I think. But yeah, I'm i'm excited. I haven't played it. i haven't been hands-on yet. I'll play this year. If it's going to come out, I'll maybe poke some friends to get access. But yeah, they're they're doing it the right way, right? Which is a free-to-play format for a game like Skate, make it super accessible to get into, right? um Yeah, i'm I'm excited for them. and I think they've gotten, ah like this last week or two, they got some really great ah coverage and traction. Like I saw some really good numbers on on engagement. So yeah, hoping hoping good stuff for them because that's good for Vancouver too, right?
00:14:15
Speaker
Plus it's good for skateboarding, man. I feel like we're coming into like a second era of, not second, right? But in the gaming world, the second era of skateboarding, Tony Hawk's coming back, skate's coming back.
00:14:26
Speaker
totally Totally. And yeah, the Olympics thing was always something they were hanging on to. The idea that the Olympics was going to represent skateboarding now was a big deal. So ah yeah yeah, for sure. you know it's always it's ah Action sports is always a tough one to sell you know at the end of the day, I think. I know some marketing people who would agree with me.
00:14:44
Speaker
um but ah But I think times are also different now too. Like, um, it's, uh, and with the legacy that is skate, you know, uh, I think they got a really good chance to yeah pull on a bunch of players for sure.
00:14:57
Speaker
Well, you were also at EA, you worked on the community side of plants for zombies and <unk> a game that's near and dear to my heart. I've loved all of them from the, uh, the pop cap ones to the the the shooters. And I think they're fantastic games.
00:15:12
Speaker
Was it ah a major or drastic difference to you when you start working on community in the game versus what you did previously, or did it all kind of seamlessly fit? Well, I guess ah the role I had on PBZ, there was executive producer and then myself, and i kind of functioned as the well i did function as the lead producer across the title.
00:15:31
Speaker
ah It was because I'd come from Gears of War, right? And and having good front lines for that game and community is great, but it's also you know a game of of ah know chainsaws to the to the face.
00:15:43
Speaker
um So like coming to PVZ and then being asked to contribute to the community stuff, you know, and be representative on Twitter, do, ah we did our, what do you call them? and i guess not podcast. We did our live streams every two weeks through launch or every week through launch. That was kind of fun.
00:16:00
Speaker
um Gosh, like the community was so sweet um and everybody was nice and like supportive of the devs. Like it it was like the safe haven, I think. So like I got lucky to be in this really beautiful,
00:16:13
Speaker
uh, safe space to, to put myself out there. Cause it is, uh, I give some advice, which is, as a new producer or product guy, whatever you, a girl, whatever you want to be like the, um, uh, it's really tempting to put your name out there and be a representative, but it is, it's a pretty big thing, right? Like, and it's a pretty big risk. Um,
00:16:36
Speaker
ah ah Think about it. Make sure you really want to do it and put and and what it means to put yourself out there. Because, yeah, it can be a bad thing, too, for sure. And guess what? They're not paying you extra for it.
00:16:47
Speaker
um So be cautious is all I'd say, for sure. Yeah, it's tough in the world of the internet. even like I'm introverted at heart. And like every time I have to post a picture of me or a video of me, I i like kind of cringe on the inside. It takes a lot to ah be able to get over that hump, especially when you're representing a game, right? All of a sudden, people are are associating you to a game. It's just like, all right, I'm kind of the front lines of this, right? We always talk about this with community managers. like They are the front line of your game. like They're hearing the crap. They're hearing the good stuff, right? And you got to filter through that.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, and you know sometimes you have to represent things that are completely out of your control one way or the other, right? um And that's not fair. you know That's not really fair. But the community a good community manager is gold these days for very obvious reasons. And like Respawn had our rock star team because you know even a managing a game like that is super complex in its community. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, ah good community management is make or break, right? Like, I mean, name me a toxic community that has a game that's successful right now, or at least trending well, you know, like it's tough.
Importance of Community Management
00:17:56
Speaker
tough So I want to talk about game guardians, but I have one last question that will lead us into that is okay from your learnings over the years, I always like to talk about pillars.
Lessons Learned and Practices at Game Guardians
00:18:06
Speaker
I learned about the concept of pillars on kind of, this is where we're steadfast. This is what we're all about.
00:18:11
Speaker
Did you learn anything from these studios on kind of the right ways to run the company versus the wrong ways to run the company? And did you bring any practices that you've learned with you or things that you know you want to avoid? Like, hey, we're going to avoid crunch, right?
00:18:25
Speaker
Stuff like that. um And as it would havelic what would it ah as it would apply specifically to Game Guardians or just in general? or I guess you specifically, because I'm assuming you represent Game Guardians.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, CEO is the what' what it says on LinkedIn. i Still trying to ah weird figure out what that means. yeah um um Okay, so let me think about that.
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, loaded. See, this is why I sent him 2 million questions and this wasn't one of them.
00:18:59
Speaker
and No, like I said, I think I've been winging it my whole life, Greg. Why stop? Why stop? Yeah, no. It's different when you're under the gun of the question, right? Like what are those best practices or worst practices?
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, one, okay. um So in regards to like, how has my experience in games maybe equipped me to start Game Guardians? um I guess is one way we could look at it.
00:19:25
Speaker
ah So one thing I've told a few people is like, I've got bad karma as the like POC in in the studio to like be pitched. um And I was tough. I was a tough cookie.
00:19:37
Speaker
ah So I feel like I got bad karma. Other people have said think of it more positively. you're you're ah ah you know You have a ah strong um ah system about what gets gets through and what doesn't it and and you utilize that in sales. So um Yeah, it's it's um trying to figure out how to really come into a studio, explain the value we bring, um why we help right now and give us a shot. Right. Like that's that's my life right now is is talking to studios and making sure we're solving the right problems and let us solve them ASAP, please. Because, yeah, we're we're.
00:20:17
Speaker
We've got tech, we've got our pilot we're pilot ready. So we're just looking to secure those first three here in the next couple months. I love it. I think it's super exciting. You're in a fun spot and you have great experience with it. So I want to dig into this, but I'm going to do our my little fireball round where I'm going to throw some random questions at you. i like fireball.
00:20:35
Speaker
Ready? Yeah, ready. What is the game that you're currently playing? ah Kingdom Come Deliverance 2. It is spectacular. Spectacular. You're playing on PC? Yeah, PC. Yeah.
00:20:46
Speaker
All right. I went about, I feel like you choose one or the other right now to to totally eat up your time. Yeah. Our discord is debating the two as we speak. Yeah. ah What did you have for breakfast?
00:20:57
Speaker
ah ah Coffee, three coffees. Boom. Three coffees. Black? No, no. ah Sugar with milk. Okay. What is your dream vacation? ah We did it. We just did ah Europe. We did Amsterdam, Berlin, Munich for Oktoberfest, Cologne. And then we did Krakow, Poland, which was beautiful. We want to do more Krakow. We want to do Thailand.
00:21:21
Speaker
i Yeah. yeah I've had a few people just come back from Thailand and everyone loves it there. So you might come back wanting to move there. Hey, maybe Game Guardians will allow it. We'll see. I like it here. I like it here in Bangkok.
00:21:34
Speaker
What is the last show or movie you watched? Last show, ah oh, I just finished Silicon Valley, which yeah yeah which I'm kind of late to the game. But yeah, just finished it last night, actually.
00:21:49
Speaker
Cool. All right. That's all I got for the hot seat here. Nice and easy. oh that was That was bad. Yeah, I know. I kind of run out of questions. I should write these down. I just wing them each time. That's cool. That's cool.
00:22:00
Speaker
ah So tell me more about Game Guardians. What is Game Guardians? So Game Guardian's primary, you know here's the major pain points. Automation itself is often a big house of cards, or there's a ah unicorn in the studio is able to maintain it.
00:22:16
Speaker
ah These live services games, just stacking up content. Every release is adding a new character, adding a new map, and QA needs to test all the old stuff plus the new stuff. Now there's more old stuff, and it's just nonstop. ah right And the third is that this is actually impacting the bottom line. like People are missing bugs, escape defects are causing issues, performance memory launches like Spider-Man is causing problems. um you know Even in AAA of AAA studios like Respawn, we made boo-boos and mistakes that you know that should have been caught, that really should have been caught. And no fault to the humans, our QA was great. um
00:22:53
Speaker
So yeah, that's where we're really hoping to come in is do the really tedious inhuman testing. And we think we do it better than humans anyways, and we do it cheaper. So that's the space we're attacking.
00:23:04
Speaker
I agree with you and we'll get hate on that, but the truth is ai is improving by the day and tools may not be up to snuff, but again, tomorrow's another day, right? And if you're not going to learn how to use this new tool,
00:23:18
Speaker
kind of going get lost behind. Well, well we we hope to empower humans. you know like the There's a principle ah from the Toyota Processing System, TPS.
00:23:29
Speaker
ah It's called Jidoka, and it's about human in the loop. So since the beginning, we've been using this principle to... to ah create our workflows, because an AI is never going be able to do ah the full end to end human job, right? That human is still going to need to be able to see to say for the foreseeable future, this is what looks good. This is what is okay.
00:23:48
Speaker
And having an agent just ah work really cleanly with a human and really effectively is where we we hope to succeed. Yeah, I love that. I think humans should always stay in the loop. I think it's important. I think it's, I'm thinking of like Iron Man, right? yeah or Or maybe Batman's a better example, right? He's super strong, able to do what he needs to do.
00:24:07
Speaker
It just en enhances him with all this other optional equipment that he has, right? And there's no reason a community manager, a QA tester can't be in that same boat, right? Let's make them superheroes out and give them more tools in our arsenal.
00:24:19
Speaker
It's not only good for the studio because the student the the agent can do more, but the agent's going to learn things better, right? I remember my first job as a, As a tier one support rep, I probably reset hundreds of passwords.
00:24:30
Speaker
That didn't teach me anything except how to reset a password, right? and We can automate that easy stuff, right? It can let people who want to aspire to be more to kind of keep learning and honing on on those skills that are important to them.
00:24:42
Speaker
Oh, gosh, Greg, and we put I'm going to put you on the sales team, Greg. That was great. um to ah Totally, right? the The super empowered local QA, because we're going to compete with um the new trend, which is outsourced QA and relatively cheap, ah you know, in other parts of the world for sure.
00:24:59
Speaker
um And, that you know, there's a bunch of great studios and they do good work. um You know, there is challenges as developers to not be on the same time zone, to have these barriers of communication. And arguably humans aren't seeing the issues they should be catching anyway in these tedious tests. Like, good luck. If I made you review 400 things um and and told you to catch every single issue you see, you're you're going to fail too, right? So yeah, we're we're we're going to go head to head in a way with um these other solutions, but we're also keen to understand if maybe we we can empower these vendors too. So yeah, a lot of exciting opportunities for how we apply our solution.
00:25:35
Speaker
Putting on that entrepreneur hat, right? You were at Respawn. How did the concept of Game Guardians come to be? When did you start tinkering with it and decide, you know what, now is the time? ah Yeah, well, I had i was at Respawn for four years, and I got caught off in that layoff that happened last ah last in March. um it was you know there was ah they They handled it great. I got a great severance and and chance to take the summer off so and the option too, which was nice. So I took it. um I had been working hard and a little burnout anyways. So timing was great. Cordy and I, my partner,
00:26:11
Speaker
And now fiance, uh, had a great summer of camping and and trips and travel and stuff. And then I started looking at the market and, uh, there was other people who I consider smarter, uh, and better looking and all the other good stuff going for the same jobs as me.
00:26:26
Speaker
Uh, and, and, you know, uh, I love AAA and I wasn't seeing the roles that I really wanted, you know, um, So I took ah took ah took a bit of a leap and decided to to figure out ah what I could do as a startup. A couple different ideas were kicking around, but this QA space has always been one ah that I've been really excited about. So ah yeah, after the summer, I kind of really honed in on what I could do.
00:26:50
Speaker
And ah gosh, I see all the people being successful in my friends group from high school doing trades and stuff like that. So I was thinking like, how could I do a trade for games? um you know And a software as a service is as close as it gets.
00:27:01
Speaker
ah So, yeah, we just started really exploring. I've got a few patents under my under my name, so I know innovation. And I think we've got, as mentioned, novel. I think we've got a patentable solution and application of how to use AI to clean the gutters, you know, so to speak, and and do it really well. So so so you came up with the concept, you were tinkering around with it.
00:27:22
Speaker
what What's the first thing you do? First thing I do ah ah like now and in the day? like in the like you know um You decided, you know what, I'm going to go for this.
00:27:33
Speaker
This is the right opportunity. You build a business plan. You just say, screw it. I'm just going to start building something. kind of What's your thought process on how that works? Yeah, awesome. Good, good question. So, and the thing I've been told was was a good thing that I did was immediately just start market research, right? So, ah the mom test, a mom test is a very ah famous book for how to do interviews.
00:27:56
Speaker
ah For those who don't know, it's like, mom, I'm going to create this app. And she's like, oh, that sounds great, sweetie. um It's going to be great. And then you make it. And she's like, well, I don't really use apps. Yeah. you know But it's it's essentially don't load the deck when you are chatting and interviewing with folks. like What are your problems? Tell me about them. Tell me more.
00:28:13
Speaker
Tell me more about that. It's so easy to to like come in and influence those chats. But that's been a huge boon, like understanding how to do proper interviews. And that's probably A, was just chatting with QA and folks. like what What problem do we need to solve here? you know um Apparently, a lot of tech startups don't do that, which is shocking to me.
00:28:33
Speaker
um And two is a y Combinator. So I signed up on there. I didn't think it was going to be bearing fruit, but ah it was worth it. And then put a bio on myself and what I was looking to start and the kind of expertise I was looking for.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I met my co-founder and CTO on Y Combinator, ah co-founder match, ah Tinder for co-founders, essentially, or whatever modern dating app should be referenced these days. So yeah, I'd say like intense market research and then really fortunately ah matching with a founder that, yeah, that we seem to have this great chemistry. It's been it's been amazing.
00:29:12
Speaker
I guess Sean's engaged now, doesn't know the dating apps anymore. It's just all gone. All that knowledge is flushed. We met on Hinge. I think Cordy and I met i and on Hinge. yeah um What's been your biggest struggle as an entrepreneur?
00:29:29
Speaker
Oh gosh. Uh, you want to take up the rest of the, uh, rest of the time. It's like, there's, we're really lucky. There's like a lot of excitement in this space and we've got some momentum. So I think we're really fortunate, but that also comes at a cost. Uh, you know, I'm a very, uh, uh,
00:29:46
Speaker
uh, I don't, it's, it's hard to unplug for myself. So, you know, i think, uh, something goes well, uh, my weekend's rocking and I'm thinking all, you know, I'm nonstop thinking about where it can go and what we can do.
00:29:58
Speaker
Uh, tough meeting on Thursday. ah Courtney, you know, uh, low impact this weekend, you know, recovery time. It's tough and I need to be better at that, but, uh,
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, ah not having it the ups and downs permeate outside of day-to-day is one I'm trying to be better at, for sure. This is a ah good comment because I took a look at myself the other week and I realized that I wake up and I'm on my phone and I come to work and I'm on my monitor and I come home and I'm watching TV and I'm playing Xbox and then I'm back on my phone. right And I'm probably on my phone for 95% of the day, which is extremely unhealthy. And it is hard to unplug, but unplugging is just as important as it is it's working because when you unplug,
00:30:41
Speaker
those creative juices can start to flow again. You can't be interrupted or maybe you can. And you can kind of have a little bit of freedom. And I think it's, again, as any founder would say, they don't want to unplug. This is your company, right? It's going to be what you're going to build and it's up to you. But again, burnout, you can burn yourself out, right?
00:30:58
Speaker
How do you try to force yourself to unplug? And if you do unplug, what are these hobbies that you might have that allow you to unplug? Yeah. And, and candidly like burnout, gosh, I've, I've been in the thralls of, of burnout a few times in my career, right? Like it's tough when you're front lines, shipping games, working six, seven days a week. Um, like it's real, you know like mental health is, is, is very challenging at those times. So, um,
00:31:26
Speaker
It's something I've struggled with for sure um and something I'm trying to be better at. And I think I've gotten better. But um yeah, candidly, it's, I think, a problem for everybody in these roles and games. Like, ah you know you want to be here in this big, cool AAA spot. It's high pressure. This is what this is what we're doing, right? um So it kind of comes with the territory, but it gets harder and harder as as the months go on for sure.
00:31:52
Speaker
um What do I do outside of ah working? um We just got back from a ski trip. That was pretty fun. Courtney's a great skier. ah um We've been trying to play a little tennis. She's taken lessons. I promise to never let her beat me.
00:32:07
Speaker
um Beer League Hockey as a Canadian. i play twice a week. I've been with the team for almost 20 years. Nice. And it's it started as a means to play hockey. Now they're all, I'm hoping a vast majority of them come to the wedding in August, which would be great.
00:32:23
Speaker
ah Yeah, almost 20 years with the same team is absurd. so Yeah, seriously. And we spend as much time in the parking lot as we do the rink. So really fortunate to have that group. And it's also ah are mostly industry folks who who can all relate to this chaos. So it's really awesome. And then I skate Tuesday morning, 7.30 a.m. So get my butt out of bed to go for a nice skate. with me Yeah, so ah hockey is a big part of it.
00:32:47
Speaker
ah Canucks fans? listen to... ah Not right now. Canucks are kua hurting right now. it's ahs It's tough to dedicate two and a half, three hours to watch those games right now, especially with all the craziness. So no, no not currently a Canucks fan, which is probably the first time I've ever said that. yeah And it's filmed. Wow.
00:33:08
Speaker
Oh, shit. um You know, the first time we spoke, you told me one of your biggest struggles is that you're not a salesperson. And I think you're completely underestimating your ability to sell, right? First of all, you work for ah handful of major AAA studios, right? Not that many people have that under their belt. You probably have learnings that you may not even remember in your head.
00:33:31
Speaker
until some core memory triggers it, right? When it happens is that how do you, I mean, even before this, right? You said the one thing you do have been doing is you take out that Rolodex, right? And you start reaching out to everyone. That is sales right there, right? You're outreaching them, right? Like how do you identify a struggle and how do you work on it to make it better? And I don't even know if there's an answer to that question.
00:33:58
Speaker
Uh, so let's let's talk about sales, right? And, and yeah, fair enough. Like I've been doing sales ever since I was a producer, right? We're pitching ideas and we're in rooms and we're pitching to designers or to, artists or to executives. So, you know, uh, thank you for the nice comments. Uh, and it's, it's a kind of different spectrum of sales, but I've kind of been selling ever since I got into this industry. So thanks thanks for the nice comments.
00:34:22
Speaker
Um, so, I'm learning and I think there's different. What I've learned is the sale changes. Am I talking to QA lead at a studio? Then they want to hear a certain set of things and value to them and their team.
00:34:39
Speaker
They want to do more human testing because they're tired of the tedious stuff. um They're less worried about money. They want to make sure that their game is solid and reliable. If I talk to a director, um you know they want to know that this is a real practical solution. It's going be easy and integrate. it's not going to be a pain in the ass and it's going to save them money.
00:34:56
Speaker
um So I've been you know trying to figure out these pitches and angles for you know the different audiences. um But at the same time, my pitch should be you know unified. So I'm kind of learning how to talk about it and and discuss it and pitch it ah with or without decks, with or without demos. um I love showing demos. so I recently showed a demo and I got way too excited and clicked through it too fast. And yeah, I'm even learning about that, right? I was like so excited to show the demos that I recorded all weekend.
00:35:27
Speaker
And ah yeah, I freaked out and clicked too through too frantically. but so yeah, learning stuff like that. I love it. You're talking about customer profiles. Now, I would actually argue that your pitch...
00:35:40
Speaker
shouldn't be standardized. It should have, we used to call them ideal customer profiles, ICPs, right? You sell them to a producer, you sell them to a head of customer support, you sell them the CTO, right? Every pitch is different. You have to understand what the goals of the person you're talking to are as a salesperson, right? Hey, this is our my customer support rep. They really care about their average handle time and their metrics, right? So you want to make sure you pitch that. Then you go to their boss. They're worried about the cost, all right? So we got to change our pitch here because this person is different. I think And you're already identifying them, right? Like each role has a different cell. I think the next thing to figure out who is actually the buyer, right? Maybe you' it's not worth talking to this individual because they have no power and they're not the right buyer. So maybe you need to focus on this. And I think, I mean, even from where we last spoke, i mean, it sounds like gears have been turning and you've been building this out and it sounds awesome.
Approach to Sales in Gaming Industry
00:36:27
Speaker
ah Thank you. Yeah. Even when did we chat? Maybe two weeks ago, week and a half ago? Yeah, it's absurd. Like the speed, ah the speed of and and ah ah which things are going is absurd. But um yeah, continuing to refine and and ah and focus. um You know, you mentioned some of the other challenges too. And focus is a big, it's it's it's easy to chase the ah a dog with a poofy tail, you know, um for sure. My partner and CTO is brilliant and and helps keep me on track when I maybe want to sway a little bit but we're small so staying focused is is super critical there too yeah uh the industry itself is kind of going through a whole change right i mean ai is a big driver of this for better or for worse depending on how you want to look at it uh games i think are fundamentally changing we have a lot more mobile games that are
00:37:17
Speaker
easy to rep reproduce, you recreate, and then you have these AAA titles coming out. There's this is rise of the indies. you've You've been in here for almost, for over 20 years now, right?
00:37:27
Speaker
I can't do math, close to 20 years here, right? Like what your learnings historically, well, how am i going to wear this question? Kind of where do you see the industry growing? Are there any of the old practice practices that should make a comeback that maybe have disappeared? Like, don't know.
00:37:45
Speaker
How do you feel about the future of gaming? ah It will always exist. um it's It's going through fundamental changes right now. um And probably a lot of it is about money and revenue.
00:37:59
Speaker
It's becoming harder to be a North American dev. I think that's really clear for a lot of folks right now just due to the costs and and and what it means to make a product.
00:38:11
Speaker
uh, there was a really brilliant, I think like, uh, what is it? Uh, I think I have it up here. State of the video state, the state of video gaming in 2025, um, by Matthew ball.
00:38:23
Speaker
Uh, I don't know if you've had a chance to see it, but it's, uh, it's worth a read and it's just going to say essentially what I'm saying, which is, uh, development is moving away from North America.
00:38:34
Speaker
um and In a lot of cases, and this is maybe not set in the deck, but an observation i had with some friends recently is that like Vancouver was a worldwide hub for talent and IP. right And there still is some really exciting products being made here.
00:38:53
Speaker
But like honestly, a lot of the studios in Vancouver are servicing other teams and IPs. you know There's not a lot of unique IP in the city right now. And that's troubling, right? Because we're just all servicing a machine and there's these brilliant people who could be off making the next best thing or next best indie or what have you. um But, you know, I can't blame folks for wanting a stable job working on a big a service right now, right? Like it's it's a good safe place to be and that's great. But...
00:39:24
Speaker
like for the health of the industry and North American devs is like use AI, use AI and write a bunch of code, get get your prototype stood up, ah you know, find that balance for how much art you're willing to generate versus real human artists who I love and adore and and think need to stay forever.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, there's it's ah it's such an exciting time to break off and make something right now. Indies tough. It's, you know, and getting funding for indies is really tough. So figure out how to bootstrap or something and get some players in would be the strategy I'd suggest. But um ah yeah, you know, it's kind of going lean and mean for the next little bit. If if I was more talented, that's probably what I would have done in all honesty. But yeah.
00:40:06
Speaker
So I wanted to kind of roll back to what you said a little earlier again about the the Rolodex, right? You reach out to all these former coworkers, colleagues, friends. Do you have a set of discovery questions that you typically ask them? Kind of what's the goal you're trying to get at?
00:40:22
Speaker
Yeah, nice. i Yeah, had a script. I had my mom test approved script. Essentially says like, ah ah and then a couple of good tips I learned that I'll be happy to share. But it it was, ah tell me about QA. Tell me about your pain points.
00:40:34
Speaker
Tell me about the solutions you do know about. um so these really standard, tell me what hurts. Tell me what hurts right now, right? um And that was the basis of those interviews. And as I started to get really good at saying, ah I know what hurts, I'm Those interviews shifted to be more targeted to feedback on game guardians and the specifics I needed to learn about. So I haven't done that script in a long time to be, well, like months, I guess. But yeah, it was really based around that. Tell me what hurts. I'm not going to say anything. You're going to tell me going give up as much info as you can without me saying a peep.
00:41:13
Speaker
And the hot tip is at the very end of each one of those, can you give me somebody else to talk to? And you usually get one, if not two. So it's kind of an easy way to keep the ball rolling. And everybody's been, I don't think anybody has said no. Like somebody's been like, oh gosh, I can't think of somebody. And that's totally fine. But yeah, hot tip and the call asking for somebody to to reach out to. And I've had like potential clients come out of that. I've had ah great research calls come out of that. Yeah, hot tip.
00:41:43
Speaker
I love that. There's two tips that you just kind of spoke through that but my old manager used to always tell me that I loved it. One is always ask for favors. And one favor, just be asking for a tip. People love to give favors. And if they really love who you are, they'll they'll do more than a favor, right? So you should always go into a sales pitch.
00:42:00
Speaker
expecting to, not even a sales pitch, a conversation to ask for two to three favors, right? And they may shoot you down and that's fine. But if you don't ask for these favors, you're not going to be able to see any of that. And I think it's important because again, it's people like helping people, right? It's goes against what people might think, but it truly shows you who your network is and how you can build upon it.
00:42:21
Speaker
And ah the what resonates with that, um too, is that people like the kindness from folks willing to help and go out of their way to help um has been ah super surprising and mind blowing. So that rings true, you know, and being maybe just upfront about it and honest of, you know, what we're building, I think could really resonate. So that's ah yeah, I love it.
00:42:43
Speaker
Love it. And there was another one, but now I can't remember. This is why I should really write things down. It was my rant. It was maybe about the follow-ups, asking for the follow-up meeting. I don't know. No, no it wasn't that. i don't remember. It will probably come back to me towards the end and I'll come back again. worries.
00:42:58
Speaker
I think it's really great stuff. Oh, I know what it was. ah One of the best sales tips I heard was that you what you did, ask them what their pain point was, right? We used to sell to customer service and they would work weekends. So if we figured out a solution that allowed them to have their weekends off, but if you're talking to that sales or the the support manager, be like, how would you like to have your Saturday back?
00:43:19
Speaker
like yeah I don't care how much money this product costs. If you're going to give me my my Saturday back or my weekend back or this back or or this pain point is hurting my nights, right? I can fix that.
00:43:29
Speaker
That is like the ultimate sales tool because people care about their own conveniences for the most part more than other things. So if you can give me my conveniences back and and remove a headache, it is such a value add to a company.
00:43:43
Speaker
i love i love that. Yeah, I love that a lot. i'm going to steal it. Thanks. stop keeping You're already doing it, right? Just asking what their pain point does and then flip it. bill All right, well, I can help you save that time. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, it's just elegantly put.
00:43:56
Speaker
So if I was, I guess the question is going to become more of who's your ideal customer, but if I'm starting a studio, right, how do I know it's time to start looking for QA? What's kind of the bell that goes off that says, hey, you probably need this because, you know, I'm i'm willing to venture that a lot of indie developers don't even really have that on their mind out the gate. So so when's the right time to start thinking about QA and looking for something in QA?
00:44:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah, awesome question. And there's you know some studios starting up in Vancouver right now going through that question. um It depends on the game. It depends on the size of the team. um i can tell you a few things that permeate through all stages of dev, which is like build health um and and build breakages. like you know Having outages of two, three days where you're not getting a new build, QA is not testing a new content, a big or small team is devastating, right?
00:44:50
Speaker
That's one of the value adds we're promising is a really great build health. That's one one we can drive up, we think, um because our agents can just rip on these builds through the day. um So yeah, I think anytime that ah build health day-to-day is super important where you're having a bunch of check-ins, things are changing and very variable, right?
00:45:09
Speaker
And that could be shoot at any stage. But for these products that um are being play tested often or have a very core gameplay loop, like gosh, and then build health is something you should be looking at ASAP, right?
00:45:24
Speaker
um As time goes on, and depending on what platform you're on, you better start thinking about the literal endless number of devices to support out there for mobile in all the regions, in all the different formats is absurd.
00:45:40
Speaker
um you know For these other bigger titles, if you want to make those big dollars, cross-platform is healthy. So you know standing up early and it's and ensuring all platforms and and everything like that is going to be ah not a hot mess.
00:45:56
Speaker
Switch, I love you, but all devs who work on these cropflat cross-platform games do not enjoy supporting Switch just due to the performance differences. I've worked on some great teams who've handled it very well, but even still, that's a challenge. right So there's ah you know there's a lot of fundamental product decisions that will drive your QA need, I think. but But yeah, the earlier, the better when it comes to... You don't want to be chasing platforms post-alpha. right
00:46:27
Speaker
so So yeah, I think this is where we think we bring a lot of value is a really empowered local QA um is what we will bring for you. you know We're going to empower that local QA that is on your team.
00:46:41
Speaker
And ah we think what that represents ah is actually big value for early devs too, you know who can really set up these build health reports and and and um ah get the most out of out of Game Guardians, even at that stage, I think is possible.
00:46:56
Speaker
yeah I remember my old company. right We used to have SDKs that we would deploy and every build of Android, every build of iOS. right Everything was different. and It was just became such a headache. and i you know i remember I had to try and publish an iOS app for testing and I never used TestFlight. I'm trying to figure all this shit out and just like, oh my God, like this is so much more complex than I thought it would be. like the countries that you need to go into, right? Supporting the languages. Like, I think people often overlook kind of how this stuff happens. And you hear people complain, why isn't this game available in German? Why isn't it like, it's not just as easy as saying, hey, German, here we go, right? Like it takes tons of tons of testing.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, and these you know there are titles too that are maybe just on PC right now who are hoping to blow up on console, right? There's there's been PC titles have been looking at doing doing that too. So totally, there's a lot of platform considerations. But you know at the end of the day, ah we' like who needs our services? you know We're really hoping to hit the mark with mobile devs seem to be i really loving in our offering, but we're we're able to support all platforms, including VR, which is going to be exciting down the road.
00:48:06
Speaker
Um, uh, but also, live services, right. These games that are evergreen, obviously for selfish reasons, that's good business because they're continue to be a live product, but also because that's where we think we're solving the most problems is these giant, big live services that are just unwieldy.
00:48:23
Speaker
Um, and especially not just the big guys and girls, it's the, it's the double A devs maybe that are, are punching out of their weight class and trying to keep up and, and, um, you know, uh,
00:48:33
Speaker
especially for them where a quick solution could, and a value add could go a long ways, right? Yeah, I feel like a lot of studios are on the verge of greatness, right? And they're trying to grow and they're trying to grow quickly, right? And like, now's the time. so So how do we make the most with our money, most with our time and make sure we can scale quickly, right?
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah, just like everybody right now, while, you know, keeping butts in seats, which is, you know, not as easy as it sounds right now. So, Sean, the last question I have for you today is if you can go back to the Sean that was making mods for Duke Nukem 3D and give yourself life advice, what would be the advice you give yourself back then?
00:49:16
Speaker
Buy Bitcoin probably, but that's the obvious one. um ah Yeah, for for like Sean advice, you know, not all battles are worth picking, I think. you know, uh, one I think I needed to learn a little bit earlier in my career is, um, uh, you know, uh, some things are worth it. Some things are not. And being passionate and being passionate in these roles and this space I think is great, but there's a line there that I needed to maybe better define earlier in my career.
00:49:43
Speaker
But, um, yeah, uh, don't, don't, uh, not all battles were are worth picking, I think, uh, or pick them better maybe would be some advice to my young, um, eager self.
00:49:55
Speaker
Uh, Let's see, what else? Maybe prioritize um a little more of my own time. I sacrificed a lot for this industry and I love games, you know, and I'm, i'm i'm you know, I don't regret the time I spent in them, but um maybe some ah more clear boundaries ah would have been there.
00:50:17
Speaker
would have been one just in regards to my personal time. And at the end of the day, that probably would have allowed me to to be more successful because I wouldn't have gone through those harsh burnout and mental health challenges. right um Yeah.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yeah. A couple there, I think. I think those are two fantastic points. One I often have to bite my tongue a lot is pick your own battles, right? There's times you just want to go off on someone or do something, right? At the end of the day, like maybe it makes you feel better for two seconds, but look at the bigger picture, right? Sometimes this is better to bite your tongue, walk away, just keep your head down, you know, uh,
00:50:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're all guilty of picking the wrong battles from time to time here, right? this You got to get smarter over it over time and then just learn when to do it, right? Yeah, for sure. there's There's times and there's times, yeah.
00:51:06
Speaker
And then I love the other one, boundaries, right? We talked about crunch, we talked about burnout, we talked about all that stuff and how do you disconnect, right? ah It's tough, especially when your hobby is video games and you're making video games, right? It's like a terrible cycle to be stuck. Well, not terrible, but it can be.
00:51:19
Speaker
um It's just, hey, how do I separate time here so I have time for myself to work on yourself? Because the the day, if you're not working on yourself, it's going be a detriment to everything. Yeah, yeah, literally everything, yeah.
00:51:32
Speaker
Cool. Well, Sean, That is all I have for you today. Let us know where we can find you, where we can find game guardians, where we should find anything. Well, I'm going to be at GDC, but this I think is going to come out after that. So that won't work.
00:51:46
Speaker
ah You can find out a little bit more about us on gameguardians.io, just as it sounds. You can reach me, Sean, at gameguardians.io. I would love to hear from you.
00:51:57
Speaker
um If it's just chat and QA, or if you think we might be a potential match for for your studio, yeah. Or if you just want to shoot the shit, I like that too.
00:52:07
Speaker
There we go. Love it. Well, Sean, Thank you so much for coming out and having this conversation today. I love everything you're doing. I think it's cool stuff. I think you're a great person. and I think you're going to be a much better salesperson than you think you're you're going to be. So so do keep doing what you're doing.
00:52:22
Speaker
We'll have information to Sean, to Game Guardians on the Player Driven blog. We'll be tweeting or not tweeting. We don't tweet anymore. We'll be doing all the other channels about about that. And again, Sean, thank you so much for coming out today. And thanks great and we'll see to each other at GDC and this is afterwards. So I could say, hey, we had a great time at GDC.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we can edit it in a picture of us right now doing an official meetup or something. Yeah. There we go. Thank you so much again, Sean. Thanks, Greg. You're great at this, by the way. Congratulations. And yeah, look forward to seeing more from from you as well. Thanks, man. Have a great day.
00:52:54
Speaker
Yeah, you too.