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The Future of Tactical Shooters: Inside Victory’s Grave: Outflank
39 Plays1 month ago
🎮 The Rise of Old Glory Studios | Player Driven Podcast
In this episode of Player Driven, we sit down with Lewis Manalo and Matt Patak, co-founders of Old Glory Studios, an indie game studio founded by AAA veterans and combat veterans. With experience at Ubisoft, Sharkmob, Massive Entertainment, and Certain Affinity, these two developers saw an opportunity to create something unique outside the constraints of big publishers.
Their first game, Victory’s Grave: Outflank, is a tactical PvP shooter designed to balance realism, strategy, and accessibility. They want to create a game that feels authentic without the extreme complexity of military simulators or the overly casual approach of mainstream shooters.
In this episode, we explore their journey from AAA to indie, the current challenges in game development, and how they’re using equity crowdfunding to involve players in their success.
⏳ Key Takeaways & Timestamps:
[00:00] 🎙️ Meet Old Glory Studios Lewis and Matt share their backgrounds in the gaming industry and military service, explaining how their paths led them to start their own studio.
[09:00] 🎮 Why Go Indie? They discuss the limitations of working in AAA studios, the creative compromises that come with big-budget game development, and why going independent gives them the freedom to build the game they truly want.
[22:40] 🔍 Finding the Fun First One of their biggest priorities was making sure Victory’s Grave: Outflank was fun from the start. They talk about their approach to playtesting and how early player feedback helped shape the game’s mechanics.
[30:10] 💰 Crowdfunding Instead of Traditional Investors Rather than going through traditional investors or big publishers, Old Glory Studios is using equity crowdfunding, which allows players and supporters to own a piece of the company. They explain why this model makes sense for their vision and how it helps them stay independent.
[50:10] 🚀 What’s Next? With a playable prototype already developed, the team is now focused on building a vertical slice and preparing for early access within a year. They also discuss how players can get involved by wishlisting the game, investing, and providing feedback.
📢 Support Old Glory Studios
🎮 Wishlist Victory’s Grave: Outflank on Steam
💡 Learn more & invest in Old Glory Studios
📲 Follow their fundraise!
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Transcript
Introduction & Welcome
00:00:01
Speaker
Here's what you're about to listen to on today's PlayerDriven. Today I'm meeting with Lewis and Matt, the two co-founders of Old Glory Studios, a new indie studio found by a pair of US veterans.
Transition from AAA to Indie Development
00:00:13
Speaker
We talk about some really cool topics, including why did they decide to go indie? They had AAA roots, they were building in AAA and they decided to go indie. So why did they decide to make that jump?
Fundraising Efforts & Studio Background
00:00:23
Speaker
How did they go about finding the fun first when they were looking into the idea?
00:00:27
Speaker
And they have a really cool fundraising round going on right now, which is worth listening to to hear how they're going about it, and which makes them a little different. It's a really fun episode. Matt and Lewis are just awesome to talk with. And I hope you guys enjoy the episode.
00:00:44
Speaker
Good morning, good afternoon. Welcome to Player Driven. We have a really fun episode today with a great indie studio that's starting up. We are with co-founders Louis Manalo and Matt Patak, who are building out Old Glory Studios.
00:01:01
Speaker
um They have a lot of experience from companies like Ubisoft, Shark Mob, Massive Entertainment, Certain Affinity. Lots of cool studios, lots of great experience building this new game that's coming out.
00:01:12
Speaker
New games that are coming out. I'm excited to learn more.
Founding of Old Glory Studios
00:01:14
Speaker
So, Louis, Matt, we'll start with you, Louis, to try and keep order here. How are you doing? Anything you'd like to say about yourself? I'm doing well. Thanks very much. My name is Louis Manalo. I'm the executive producer at Old Glory Studios.
00:01:26
Speaker
Thanks, Louis. Yeah. Matt? Yep. Matt Patak, creative director at Old Glory Studios and excited to be here. Looking forward to this. Yeah, I am too. You know, we're at the rise of these indie studios, right? And you guys are a combat veterans. So thank you for your service. And I'm excited to kind of learn why you want to start your own studio, what you're trying to build, and and what's the differentii differentiator with Old Glory Studios. So maybe we could start with kind of like your elevator pitch, right?
00:01:51
Speaker
Who is Old Glory Studios? Sure. So we're an independent studio. were founded at the end of 2023. Matt and I are both experienced AAA game developers.
00:02:05
Speaker
my Some of my biggest titles are Ghost Recon, Wildlands, Ghost Recon, Breakpoint. I did some work in the Dying Light 2 franchise. um And Matt has been with...
00:02:16
Speaker
um Massive. He was with Massive for a while, worked on Division I and II. We met while working at Shark Mob. um But we also, when we met there, we are also both, you know, it's a Swedish studio. So we're one, we're two of the few Americans working there at the time. And we're were' both also combat veterans.
00:02:34
Speaker
um And basically the way our studio happened is, you know, like Matt moved back to the States about a year before I did. When my work visa ran out, I came back to the States and but we kept in touch. And then basically Matt had an idea for a game that I really
Personal Journeys & Game Design Philosophy
00:02:50
Speaker
wanted to play. So I was like, well, let's make this happen.
00:02:53
Speaker
So. Cool. Matt, you want to tell us a little more about that? Yeah, know it's been an idea, like over 20 years in the making. and We can get into that when the time is right. But yeah, so Lewis and I worked together at Shark Mob.
00:03:09
Speaker
I was lead level designer on ExoBorn. It's not yet released, but it's in like closed and open beta testing, I think, right now. But they're doing really well, getting a lot of positive feedback. Lewis has seen your narrative on there. So i had to we had to interact a lot talking about different points of interest, different narrative stories for these characters and elements that you're interact interacting with in the world itself.
00:03:30
Speaker
So we connected on that, our military background and a common buddy that we had kind of linking us all together. And yeah, my time in Europe was done. I had to head back home to get closer to family.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah, like Louis said, I left about a year before he did. Yeah, when he he contacted me when he got back and he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm working on this. Like, this is great. like like I think we can make our own studio and i I think we should do this. Like, he's like, hell yeah, let's do it. So for me, it was really exciting that to go, you know, in this ah adventure with Louis, just because I know our our passion, we we got that that drive and that experience.
00:04:10
Speaker
We have the military background, both combat veterans. And yeah, that's kind of like, again, the spur of our name, Old Glory Studios. We wanted to be very pro-American and you know represent not just you know ourselves, but veterans, service members, and people like this across the United States as a whole.
00:04:28
Speaker
I'm so curious. You know you have... Both of you have the veteran background, right? And Louis, your narrative, Matt, your level design. What kind of like, so you're in high school, right? Let's call it high school, right? how How does this order of operations go? Do you just sign up for the, be a part of the services? And then you kind of learn the gaming stuff, the aspect there where you're already studying this stuff and you decide you want to go into the military to help pay for, like, what is the order of operations here?
00:04:55
Speaker
So you go ahead, Matt. Yours starts in the high school, right? so Yes, it does. Yeah, I always played games. I was always a big gamer. i even got bullied in middle school for being too much of a gamer, you know.
00:05:08
Speaker
And yeah, it's just like I've always had this passion. Never really understood that I... you know, understood that I wanted or ever could join the military. So I went to school right after high school, went to like a local college right after high school to study multimedia. I had no idea what I wanted to do. Just wanted to try to figure it out.
00:05:27
Speaker
9-11 happened and I hated the school i was going to. It was so dull, so boring, so dry. And i was so vague. I didn't know what to do. So Yeah, I took the chance to kind of take a few months to think about it, talked about it with some recruiters, my mom, my dad, and everybody else, and landed with the Army. And during that time, yeah, everyone in the barracks, everyone plays video games, and everyone's a gamer. And you know we're all bunch of you know teenagers and goofy you know goofy guys just hanging out and doing LAN parties and stuff in the barracks. and
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, its just really like it really assured me that there is a career here. um I like this and I like modifying some you know missions and stuff and the original Operation Flashpoint, if anybody knows this editor.
Authenticity & Market Gap in Military Games
00:06:13
Speaker
It's super cool. But yeah, I went to school after that, used the GI Bill.
00:06:18
Speaker
I studied game design and made a portfolio and landed my first job in the industry. Yeah. That's awesome. You know, I guess from the outside looking in, I wouldn't think you join the army and all of a sudden you find your like-minded gaming guys yeah out there in the barracks. Awesome. i like got There are so many gamers in the barracks, man. Shout out to all you guys. Like, love you all. Love it. That's awesome.
00:06:41
Speaker
Lewis? yeah Yeah. And for me, I actually, um video games was not anywhere on my radar, honestly. So I actually went to and NYU film school and I had After I graduated that I was working already in the film industry, also doing some writing.
00:06:57
Speaker
um But after I graduated from college, I moved across the Hudson River to Jersey City. So when September 11th happened, I watched the World Trade Center fall from my apartment window.
00:07:09
Speaker
So after that, it was, you know, like I'd have family members who'd served before me. I mean, it hadn't been anything that I'd considered up to that point. But um after that, and everyone I cared about was on Manhattan or in the D.C. area. So I enlisted after that.
00:07:27
Speaker
Um, and then, you know, after like three years,
Studio Structure & Indie vs AAA Benefits
00:07:31
Speaker
uh, serving with the 82nd airborne, I came out, um, Tried to get back into film and writing. It was a very slow process.
00:07:40
Speaker
I ended up ah producing some documentaries that were shot in South America, like in the Amazon jungle mostly. um And then i also was writing and I wrote a play about some soldiers stuck on a mountaintop in Afghanistan and at a reading at NYU and an old friend of mine came and saw it. And then a few months later, he called me up and invited me to work with him writing for Ghost Recon Wildlands.
00:08:05
Speaker
So that's how I ended up in the games industry. Love it. Again, kind of a full circle moment. I appreciate both of your services that you've done. Shout out to Jersey City. I lived in Jersey City for some of the best years of my life. so There you go. edit And now you're both in this gaming world. ah And I love Louis. I've had so many questions about narrative design, but now is not the time for it because it would be a very focused podcast. But yeah guys are bringing two different expertise to the new studio. And I'm curious,
00:08:35
Speaker
Why now? You know, we've seen a whole lot of things happening with AAA studios struggling, right? And it's a rise, but like, how does a narrative designer and a level designer decide, hey, you know what, we're gonna build a studio? How do you, A, identify that the time is right?
00:08:51
Speaker
And B, you know, you have the right people there to do it. And Matt, you want to it off or? Yeah, I'll actually let Lewis kick it off. Yeah. So, so and again, it comes back to why I was so keen to the why I wanted to play the game that Matt was describing when we were talking, because, you know, for, you know, Matt and I both like very early in our careers, we were working in these Tom Clancy games where authenticity, you know, what Ubisoft was a huge part of it. Like basically I was hired because I had served with special operators and I'd been to South America, you know, um and, you know, I could write a little bit.
00:09:27
Speaker
Right. So, um, but you know, triple a games, they've been basically veering away from that. So like military themed games like these Tom Clancy games, like call of duty, they've gone further and further to closer to fortnight, you know, so you can play as Snoop dog and call of duty or as Nicki Minaj, you know, which, so we're lacking that authenticity of that kind of brought it.
00:09:51
Speaker
that was something
Game Design Approach & Playtesting
00:09:52
Speaker
that we could bring and identify with. But meanwhile, on the other side of the spectrum, you have some very hardcore like ah military games that are really military simulators, you know, like ah like Hell Let Loose and like Squad where and and in Arma and, and some of these games, like the players can get very into the minutiae detail about how authentic something is. And if you're, you know, and if a game, they, if the, the animation in the game doesn't load the rifle correctly, then the game is garbage, you know? And,
00:10:24
Speaker
You know, and that's great for those people. And that's that's it But it's a niche if we're honest. Right. So basically, we saw this just big gap in the market of games that have authenticity but are still very accessible.
00:10:39
Speaker
So we're we're hoping to fill that in with that. um So like I said before, my background is in film. So for me, you know, I've had production companies in the past.
00:10:50
Speaker
I've started them several times and and Basically in independent films specifically, cause that's where I started in the and the ninety s the each production company, it was really just two people. Like it would be a producer and a director, right?
00:11:07
Speaker
and Maybe there might be someone to help in the office as well, right? um But that's basically how we're structuring our studio as well. And part of this is because, you know, we want to avoid a lot of the pitfalls that have hit a lot of AAA studios or studios of any size at this point, really.
00:11:23
Speaker
um So just like how, you know, for an independent film, you're not going to hire Matt Damon on salary and put them on 401k, right? So we will we've hire our developers freelance right now. And you know we ah work with co-development studios just like you know an independent film studio would work with the post-production house. you know So things like that. So for me, the timing has to do with not just the product, which, you know, even if we were a bigger studio already, like staffed up, this would probably be something we would want to do
00:12:00
Speaker
um But also because of the way that the business, the industry itself is going, like this is a good, ah this is a good time to also try and, you know, make this type of business model work.
00:12:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'll jump in. Like, yeah, that the the trend of the market is, it's ripe for the idea that we're trying to achieve here. So I think this is what's going on wrong with the AAA gaming space is they are just trend followers. They're not really trendsetters. They're you know, extraction shooters are a dime a dozen now where back in the day, PUBG was like one out of like um like, oh, like it was like, holy like cow, this is so revolutionary.
00:12:36
Speaker
And now it's so commonplace. And then you you take it to like battle royales, like everyone's kind of either like going down this route, Fortnite, Apex Legends and what have you. And then if it's not that, if it's a military type game, like Lewis was talking about either squad or Arma or, you know, hell at Lewis,
00:12:52
Speaker
you You could almost classify these as walking simulators and like, you know, this like reenactment simulators, basically. It's like, oh, you know, use my, know, rank you. It's like, come on, like, this is a game. I love those guys. I actually was on one of those type of squads in the past with Operation Flashpoint, literally having to salute the officers and everything. like, okay, cool.
00:13:14
Speaker
But... For us, and it's just like the the AAA space doesn't really explore what really makes a game fun. they They look at what's working across the board and try to mimic that. Like, I've seen this a dime a dozen every time in studios that work for.
Finding the Fun & Unique Game Vision
00:13:33
Speaker
we We design by trend. Like, what's happening now? Oh, um this game is popping. Like, um... Valheim, I think, was ah like a great game at the time. It's like, let's do a loop system like Valheim. That's a great one. And then different, like Left 4 Dead 2 was, you know, when I you know first started in the industry, was like really popping. And people were like, oh, let's make, you know, like this cooperative stuff with these little, you know, gadgets and things. Like, they don't really come there with any kind of, you know, spark because they, again, there's there's so much bloat. There's so many salaries that they have to pay. that like
00:14:06
Speaker
They can't really take those risks because, know, they're like they're the headquarters or whatever just wouldn't allow them to because it's a risk they're financially not willing to take financially so.
00:14:18
Speaker
That's, I think what's going wrong, and that's where we come in to play with our projects. Being smaller, you being just a studio which which is really just you know two core people, it allows us to be a lot more nimble.
00:14:31
Speaker
and you know and then Again, that also comes back to like independent film. If you think look at independent film in the 90s, they could take really big risks on things. like Really weird movies got made at the time you know because it was a um ah smaller financial risk that backers had to take.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah, and we spoke a little bit about this on our prequel, right? And I appreciate a lot of the stuff you guys just said, and I just kind of want to recap through some of it. So, Louis, you were talking about creating ah something a little more realistic than the games we're seeing today when it comes to shooters, right? And we talked about this back in the day.
00:15:04
Speaker
If you were to tell people the original Rainbow Six had, like, this whole beginning where you had to plan out where your operators are going to go, which weapons they have what they have to do beforehand, I don't think a single person would tell you. But we're, like...
00:15:16
Speaker
itching for those games, me and my friends these days. like they They don't exist anymore. the The tactical, cooperative shooter, right? It all became... yeah and Siege is a great game, right? I know it's changed since I've been like... Fingers crossed that update comes out. I know, right? Fingers crossed that update. I mean, it was...
00:15:33
Speaker
that Siege has been around for over 10 years at this point, right? i hate That first few years of Siege was unlike any game I've ever seen. And same thing you mentioned with PUBG, right? Like when PUBG first came out, that was that first shooter. And then what happens is what Matt said is that...
00:15:47
Speaker
ah yeah Everyone chases trends. We see the hottest trend and all of a sudden you have 57,000 extraction shooters, battle royales, right? Because the people who are funding these, the money is saying, hey, we're not taking chances.
00:16:00
Speaker
This is where smart money is. But we're starting to see that backfire in the marketplace, right? You see AAAs. Sure. or just dying before they even come out. Not because they're not good, but they're not listening to what the players want either. It kind of goes both ways. Like A, they're shoving this stuff yeah in our face and B, they're not listening to us. And it becomes something that's really frustrating. And you kind of came around at the end, Lewis, and said, you know,
00:16:23
Speaker
Indies, you didn't say Indies, but they're more nimble. They don't have the the and NBA at the top or the person who's at the top saying, hey, this is what you need to build. You have that creative freedom. and And that's what I love when I start hearing you guys talk about old glory and what you guys are going to do.
00:16:39
Speaker
So add of my own curiosity, right? Like after speaking to a lot of game directors, they always talk about finding the fun. Do you guys kind of have this idea of like, what do we want to include in our games that get people hooked over my getting ahead of myself?
00:16:54
Speaker
um now Matt, it's like baked into Matt's ideas. So yeah, go ahead. Yeah. It's a, it's a game I've always been dreaming of. And I, I know that there's a ah crowd for it. Obviously we do like we're we're doing play tests and we're like doing the like tweaks based on feedback, but yet ultimately I'm trying to avoid again, the design by trend and just really keeping it like a unique experience, a focused experience. Like,
00:17:20
Speaker
there is you know a ah gold nugget in this you know giant ore, weve just gotta carve through all the other you know materials around it to get to it. It's just like the process to get there.
00:17:31
Speaker
And yeah, it's like, I'm really like Harkening back to what, you know, Rainbow Six Siege is doing, like they had something great. They had that nugget and they, you know, they got covered with a bunch of mud, in my opinion. Like it became something that it just wasn't. And that's what I'm trying to keep this project in in focus of what it is as opposed to what it is not. So it's it's different. It's different.
00:17:53
Speaker
it's it's a classic take on, you know, um like, you know, the, the kind of 5v5, uh, version of gameplay that we've all had, but kind of like hybrid with other RTS elements and different other kinds of situations, like very highly destructible dynamic environments and replayability is a big, uh, part of what we're doing here. And so, yeah, we're just trying to make something that every time you play, it's always something unique, fun and interesting and really like a spectacle for the eyes. Like,
00:18:21
Speaker
it should And the ears and all the
Crowdfunding Strategy & Community Engagement
00:18:24
Speaker
senses, really. like no and ah Really quickly, I don't want us to sound like we're just bashing on like AAA studios. You know what I mean? yeah Because there's a lot of... you know really like The most talented people like I've worked with have been at at AAA studios.
00:18:38
Speaker
But again, like part of it is that... you know like There's little room for innovation, right? So some of these really talented people, their ideas don't get heard or they don't get implemented or they get squashed because of whatever bureaucracy.
00:18:52
Speaker
um And then, of course, there are certain things that AAA games can do that like they're they're like so far out of our scope, you know, like. And Red Dead Redemption 2, just having your character's beard grow. You know what I mean?
00:19:03
Speaker
Like, I'd be really, like, impressed with any indie studio that could do that. But again, like, yeah. But again, finding the fun, though. Like, that's something that's that's fundamental. And, you know, again, because we're smaller, because we're nimble, because we're working directly with playtesters even, you know, ah that that's an advantage that we have.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't take it as passion AAA. I think there's the true passion does live in AAA gaming. It's just the people making the game rather than yeah company around it that kind of controls that i was talking to my buddy today right he worked at net ease right they created marvel rivals and his whole team just got laid off which is crazy because marvel rivals is doing great right now they just took ah yeah their one their their washington branch and just decided to axe everybody that was there just like cry take a big layoff too cry take everyone yeah so you know kingdom come deliverance should yeah it's
00:19:57
Speaker
That's why these big teams, I mean, they're great, right? But how do you need to pay them at the end of the day? And that becomes a little bit of a struggle. And how do you manage it? Exactly. And so ah ah honestly, I think a lot of this, the layoffs of the last two years, they're basically because like money was so cheap with the COVID boom.
00:20:14
Speaker
Like the higher and fight and fire cycle that normally happens with games was just on steroids, you know? So again, it's always kind of been there, but that's sort of another reason why we structured ourselves this way to work with freelancers, you know, um, for example, our.
00:20:31
Speaker
our our character concept artist, you know, she she actually comes from comic books. She used to draw Nick Farella. She used to draw for Deadpool and all new Wolverine and stuff. um But like, we know we're not going to need her full time.
00:20:46
Speaker
You know what I mean? It doesn't make sense to hire a character artist um and then keep them on after we're the work's done, you know? So ah there are there are a lot of roles like that, that a lot of these studios, you know, ah a lot of those roles in the industry, honestly, would probably be better off freelance.
00:21:05
Speaker
Like as a writer, I've done almost like I've done the the huge ah majority of my career freelance. So, yeah, you know, especially because unfortunately so many people were freelance.
00:21:17
Speaker
were affected by the layoffs, right? There's a lot of great talent out there, right? And even with someone that's working, it's nice to have that steady paycheck, but it's also nice to have the flexibility of working the projects that I want to work as long as I have that option available to me. So I love the idea of going with freelancers. I think it's kind of a win-win for all parties involved, right? You get to work on something new, you get to work on something different, but you're also, you know, you're not tied up for the long run. And I think, you know, people may think that's not a positive, but, you know, you've seen stories of people that work at that,
00:21:46
Speaker
companies like Bungie, right, or even Activision, where you just built built that same game over and over again. She's like, all right, I'm tired of building this game. I want to go do something new and try something new. Yeah. Yeah. No, I started their career at Epic Games and they'll be there till the day they die. So it's yeah.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But like again, like going back to the what's analogous with film, ah you know, like I don't know, like your film directors, like David Ayer, he's not on, he's not an employee.
00:22:15
Speaker
You know what I mean? For each film he makes, whether it's Suicide Squad or, you know, whatever, you know, Jason Statham movie, like he's freelance, you know? And, but at the same time, he still has very much a creative voice in the products that he's making.
00:22:27
Speaker
So. So let's go back to old glory, right? So you two probably took a look at each other, had this conversation, said, you know what, let's do it. Let's go for it. Let's build this, right? How do you identify what's missing from the team? Like i you immediately say, hey, we need someone that's in charge of the business side of things or an artist, like you mentioned. Like how do you recognize where your weaknesses might be? And how do you approach that?
00:22:52
Speaker
ah Well, straight off the bat, like again, ah we we divided what the work is. So I have experience in film production as a film producer. So basically, I'm taking care of most of the business side of it.
00:23:06
Speaker
Matt's taking care of the bulk of the creative side. But you know obviously, each decision, of you know each field affects the other. So we definitely like collaborate on a ton of stuff. um so But then in terms of like building out the team,
00:23:20
Speaker
we could do it basically pretty ad hoc. So it's what we need at the time ah very much. So um we were able to get to our first playable prototype um just using freelancers.
00:23:34
Speaker
um Like I think we had a total of two who worked on like two freelancers who worked on that. and And honestly, like we were able to get to our first playable prototype, which is most of the footage that we have out on our social media and on YouTube comes from our first playable prototype. And we got to that in eight months in under 100 grand, you know, and that's so we bootstrapped that.
00:23:58
Speaker
So now that you know we're starting to scale up again, it tellt that's when we started getting co-developers actually reaching out to us. you know um but then So we're working with a ah couple different co-developers that we have agreements signed with, um and then some more freelancers you know as we decided, okay, this game works, this prototype works, we're going to build out so that it's working the vertical slice and so on.
00:24:25
Speaker
so Yeah. ah Yeah. just want to like, yeah, with the project too, it's just like, we we've scoped it down to the point where, like Louis said, with the first playable prototype, the most achievable and just keep, again, keeping the focus narrow, but you know, the quality high. And that's our goal from this, from the get go is to really release something. That's not just like,
00:24:47
Speaker
it just achieves like a a dream. It's just, it literally will like, I'm hoping like, again, ah very beautiful project, a very fun to play a game. And it'll be extremely ah engaging for players as opposed to just like, okay, they load it up once and they're done with it. It should always keep them coming back. And so for me, that's super important. And yeah, like I said, ah Lewis was saying, we've divvied up the the responsibilities and,
00:25:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a matter of, again, keeping the eye on the prize and knowing what's the next target goal to reach and how do we reach it together. What were some of those findings you found during the first play test that you heard from players?
00:25:27
Speaker
It's fun. because's really like the big conversation like no like That was really like the biggest thing. you know Anytime that you have a ah playable prototype, that's that's really the thing you get the most nervous about. Like, okay, so we worked on this for a few months now.
00:25:43
Speaker
You know, like I've worked on some prototypes for years and to have to wait years to figure out, is this thing fun? And then to be, you know, for us, we were relieved. Oh, it was fun. But imagine if you you've worked for two years on something, you decide this is not fun.
00:25:59
Speaker
This is confusing. yeah What am I doing? So for us, like as soon as we figured that out, like as soon as we figured it out, out that it was fun that people playing it were having a great response then yeah we're like all right we don't we need to get some more funding here and we need to start scaling this game up so yeah like scaling it up with ah the play test as well i know like like a lot of people keep coming in for the play test to help us out and they're again they're having a great time but we're trying to just keep adding more features as we go and obviously you know pitch and polish and you know add like
00:26:34
Speaker
changes as as we can. But it was, yeah, it was a great response. And obviously every game has their quirks and bugs. Like the way we connect is old school janky stuff, but we're going to get there. We need like back in development stuff, but we're we're working towards that and focusing on what really matters. And I think this, it's really good experience every time to play. Like I actually, I play it all the time just because, you know, I have to test it. I'm working all the time, but I really do love just running around, you know, single player mode, just kind of like looking at the trees and,
00:27:05
Speaker
pretending that I'm in a battle at, you know, the server's full or something like that. So i have some more questions on the game itself, but yeah usually about halfway through, I think we're past that, but we do a fireball round. I'm going throw a couple of questions at you guys and get to go.
00:27:20
Speaker
Let's go. Each one. Let's start with Louis first, just so we got the order of operations here. What is the last show you binged watched? I just binged watched Silo actually like second season yesterday. yeah.
00:27:32
Speaker
There we go. Yeah. like I like the book. It was okay. But like the the the show, actually, I like how they're they're doing it a lot. Okay. Matt? Actually, Terror was there like the the Northern Passage Exploration TV show on Netflix. Really awesome.
00:27:51
Speaker
Awesome. What did you have for breakfast? I had two sunny-side-up eggs and a croissant and coffee. a bowl of yogurt with protein powder, and a cup of tea.
00:28:06
Speaker
so What was the last game you played?
00:28:12
Speaker
I think the last game I played was Roblox Rivals. I play it with my kids, and i'm i take enjoyment in pwning noobs. Nice.
00:28:24
Speaker
uh, solo operations mode and Delta force. Yeah. I get owned, but I'm, it's, it's a good experience. Nice. Love it. Last question I have for you guys, uh, is what is your dream vacation?
00:28:38
Speaker
Uh, probably just a cabin by the lake and a big stack of books. Beautiful. Yeah. yeah I would say, uh, like there's that really awesome uh town i think it's in austria like tucked up in the alps with a really awesome giant lake like just being able to be there for like i don't know two or three weeks just to chill and go skiing and eat a lot of great food perfect all right lewis what you said i think it was you before we went is that you you know your timing yeah it was quicker to find the fun in the play test and i think that's awesome like like you mentioned like
00:29:15
Speaker
The game, I think it was a Shark Mob that you worked on is still in the process of coming out, which is how long has that been, right? It must be awesome to be able to build something in a couple months, put it it out there and get that feedback in a couple months. Has it kind of? Yes. Yeah, go for it.
00:29:29
Speaker
No, so i mean we because we both left Shark Mob before it was in at this phase, you know before we could see how far it's gone. So you know honestly, a lot of what's in the game now, ah we can't take credit for. I think some of the Matt stuff, though, I still saw in this latest playtest, so like he I'll let him take credit for that stuff.
00:29:50
Speaker
But... I don't know, but I have, uh, the, uh, oil rig still up in there. Oh yeah. yeah That was yeah just as I was leaving. Yeah. We, we set that one up, but it's not, obviously the concept was there, but it like yeah the map has completely changed.
00:30:05
Speaker
So, yeah, but no, that, that whole team of level designers is amazing out there. Um, yeah ah But yeah, in terms of yeah finding the fun immediately, it is you know this is actually what first playable prototypes are supposed to be. If you fli play it and it's not fun, you haven't spent so much money or spent so much time that you can't just start over. you know And honestly, like we were in that spot. like we Like I said, we didn't even spend $100,000. Honestly, I think it was something like $70,000. And this is us bootstrapping it.
00:30:36
Speaker
um Probably less, actually. right um so and then But if it wasn't fun, you know we would have been able to to pivot pretty easily. We didn't have a lot of resources or people committed to this one direction.
00:30:50
Speaker
you know You know, the money itself is tough to get these days, right? You know, along with the layoffs, right? Funding, not going to say is dried up, but but we'll go with something as similar to those terms where it's not easy to get funding. And we are seeing some great indies rise, right? Like, so so it is possible. but But something that you're doing, which is different than what I've seen out there, is you're you're kind of going crowdfunding.
00:31:12
Speaker
And I'm curious on, A, maybe you could just explain what that means to our listeners, but why did you decide to go through that approach? And what does it mean for players? Yeah. Sure. So as opposed to like Kickstarters, which is a pledge driven crowdfund, ah we're doing a equity crowdfund, a ah Reg CF specifically.
00:31:30
Speaker
um So you'll see The exact same thing happening on platforms like WeFunder or StartEngine. ah We're going through this platform called Fola Capital, which which focuses on veteran-owned businesses.
00:31:46
Speaker
um But basically what it is, is you raise funds by going to the public and you know people who would be wanting to support the type of product you are making or the type of business that you are um through these platforms, they can make investments that honestly, sometimes like a lot of our investments have been small and they've really been more show of support as opposed to, um you know, someone trying to make, you know, big bank out of this sort of thing.
00:32:12
Speaker
um And, you know, like Kickstarters, we will also offer bonuses as well, like for different levels of investment. So, but I think it's,
00:32:24
Speaker
It became legal, I believe, like this type of funding became ah it was enacted as part of the JOBS Act under Obama ah that allowed this type of crowdsourced, basically private investment happen.
00:32:39
Speaker
ah And So it's only been around really since like 2016. It's more common in small businesses, I guess. and But there have been a couple other studios that have done this in the past couple years too.
00:32:55
Speaker
It's fascinating. I think it's a really cool idea, right? you know We see so much about community in games these days, right? And trying to build up what they're trying to do. They're just trying to build support around the game, right? And this gives players who have the funds available, right, an opportunity to say, hey, I really like this game. I want a piece of this game. I want to be involved in this game somehow, right? And I think it's a really cool.
00:33:18
Speaker
Have you heard from it people that were considering donating, have donated, have have pledged, right? Like, have you spoken to them to kind of get their feedback and and thoughts on how things are going? yeah How does your involvement with them work?
00:33:30
Speaker
or Yeah, I mean, so, ah I mean, we're very open to all of, you know, we have, you know, we're very easy to reach with all these people. And we even have a, you know, ah one of the channels in our Discord server is for investors, you know. um But, you It's honestly the a lot of the best, the strongest response we've gotten, you know, have been from veterans who are also gamers, you know. So like Matt said, like gaming, like, especially if you live in the barracks, it's just the, it's a part big part of the culture, you know? Yeah.
00:34:02
Speaker
yeah Like when I was in, It was Halo 2 LAN parties, you know, string we'd string the cables between like, like through the, uh, the roof tiles, uh, from one room to the other, do you know, to hook up the X boxes and stuff.
00:34:16
Speaker
So, and there's a huge community out there of veterans. You were gamers. They, they come together in places, um, different discord servers like, uh, regiments is one. Um, and you know, they're,
00:34:30
Speaker
It's ah going to be a different kind of crowd, I guess, you know, but it's it's like your own tribe, you know. So again, so these people, are you know, we want to be able to ah give them something that they'll enjoy. we want to be able to represent veterans well ah and also like like real veterans, honestly. So ah one of the things that that I talk about a lot is like,
00:34:52
Speaker
you know like A lot of the work I've done has been for Ubisoft. Again, great games, i great opportunities there. But there's always this back and forth because there's always some French designer who's trying to tell me, well, this is what American spec ops behaves like. And I'm just like, well, one, they don't even call them spec ops.
00:35:12
Speaker
So to be able to kind of Do it in a, to present, you know, military, to present service members and veterans in a less filtered way, let's call it, uh, with less stereotyped way, frankly, uh, really appreciate it too.
00:35:29
Speaker
So. Yeah. Yeah, to har like to bring it towards the gamer side as opposed to the veteran side is just knowing that this yeah this crowdfund is it's a new experience for me too because um I have seen Kickstarters in the past and understand what those take. But this is a it's not just a Kickstarter or a crowdfund. It's literally like you're getting an equity in old glory studios. So our success becomes your success.
00:35:53
Speaker
And that's something that I think is super intriguing for me is like, If most Kickstarters had this option, I'd probably be investing in more Kickstarters more often, for sure. so it's It's interesting.
Development Process & Team Dynamics
00:36:05
Speaker
and one of my questions I have is, I guess, where is funding going towards now, right? you You have a playable version of the game. Obviously, you need to build everything out more. But like where does investments go at this stage?
00:36:19
Speaker
It goes really straight into production at this point. um There is, you know, some of what we've received so far we have spent on, you know, PR and marketing. ah But it really is at this point, we're trying to, our our next big goal, our our next big gate is our vertical slice, which we hope to have done in May.
00:36:39
Speaker
So a lot of that stuff, you know, we need to art up the environments we have now, we need to implement a lot of the ah personalizations for characters. um Because, you know, we know these, and we know these players from all these other games, and we know the type of, know, personalization that, that people in, you know, that the military shooter crowd want to have. So we want to be able to have at least some of that in the vertical slice.
00:37:03
Speaker
So that's that's where all the the funds are mostly going now. um But you know ideally and ideally, we'll be able to have a beta, which we'll hopefully use as an early access release within a year.
00:37:19
Speaker
Wow. What tools are you using to build out the game? I'm curious, engine-wise and like what's it running on? Unreal 5.5, the latest version of Unreal at the right at the moment. So and we're I'm constantly keeping that sucker up to date as we go. cause they They got a lot of great tools. like it It's a really awesome yeah tool to use for a developer. And yeah, keeping that up to date as possible. So if we ever do hit a gate at the end of our milestones or something that, OK, now we we have a solid build, but we want and you know to access this new feature, it should be a simple
00:37:56
Speaker
overnight switch. Because a lot of a lot of studios I've worked at, they're they're kind of trapped with a certain version of Unreal. but And they they can't really advance it forward because the work to advance it forward would just be too too much to to do and too costly, too time consuming. so Always updating.
00:38:13
Speaker
Always updating. I've also heard this. I mean, some of the AI tools I know that are built into Unreal 5, I know it lets you scale quickly, build quickly. We've we've done a number of podcasts with indies that are building AAA-style quality games in in a matter of weeks and months compared to years. Like you're seeing that because of Unreal and absolutely what they have to offer.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, no, there are tons of great tools like that now um that are even just in the last couple of years. But I mean, like just having ah engines available again is like a huge spoon, right?
00:38:44
Speaker
This is not a thing 10 years ago at all. Yeah. So, but, you know, one of the things that we're struggling with creatively, let's say, is what we're trying to do is really make the game look unique.
00:38:56
Speaker
Like one of the problems with Unreal Engine being so great and being able to work so quickly with it is that a lot of Unreal Engine games do look the same. You know, I think it's a legitimate criticism that players have.
00:39:08
Speaker
ah So we really want to make sure that when people boot up the game, like from the first screen that they see, like it's going to look unique and it's going to feel unique. So the first game is Victory's Grave Outflank, and it's tactical PvP.
00:39:23
Speaker
I think, Matt, you were saying earlier, destructible environments, defense building, which is something that's interesting because I've been loving tower defense style games where you can kind of those things in there. like What's the experience like like? You keep saying you want to build something that's a little different than the Call Duty experience or the Fortnite experience right now. Like...
00:39:40
Speaker
for sure who who is buying this game and what what kind of what what is uh or sorry who is playing this game and kind of what what's it have yeah so we kind of touched on it before the rainbow six siege community is absolutely something we're kind of dialing in towards the squad community like if the call of duty community like it's got a flavor for each and every person of one of these communities and if you kind of If you want to go all you know I'll use the term sweaty and get crazy and you know
00:40:11
Speaker
click you know click heads everywhere, you can, but then also if you're just looking like a you know father of three and you got you know very limited time on your hands, you can still compete and be you know an asset to your team in this project as well, given the design of it. So it's it's not so hardcore and intimidating to jump into, but it's also not casual.
00:40:32
Speaker
It's easy to learn, hard to master. So that's what we want to focus on. And also, you know, just ah get people to, you know, feel like the intensity of combat, get that, you know, the the environment to really immerse them, you know, the audio to really be crunchy and snappy and very, very surreal. And like I use the the term exaggerated realism. If, you know, this, you know, the way the bullet cracks over your head, well, let's exaggerate that. Let's dial that up by, you know,
00:41:01
Speaker
100% or more, like just like what Saving Private Ryan did for the movie industry when it came to kind of sound effects in movies and the way that you should feel when it comes to like a war movie, you know, I'm thinking back to when I was a kid, like watching any kind of John Wayne war movie, you know, the guy would get shot, he'd grab his chest and fall over, you know, it's like, ah.
00:41:19
Speaker
But then you see you saving in Private Ryan and it blew everybody's minds. Like it's the same concept, but just, you know, amplified like it's for shock value. And obviously, I don't think we're going to go down the Soldier of Fortune route. But, you know, it's like the intensity and the feeling of what it's like to be in combat and in a firefight.
00:41:37
Speaker
So this is what. I think one of the unique things too with Matt's designs is the emphasis on the team play. you know like Even though the way that we want to structure um you know the ongoing support for the game is focused more on teams. So for example...
00:41:54
Speaker
you know, like if you get a fortnight battle pass, you know, you will progress yourself to get whatever vanity items and cool weapons and skins, things like that. Um, but our, sub the subscriptions that we're hoping to do, know, we're, we're, we're really hoping on having an in-game league. You know, we've been talking actually with, um,
00:42:13
Speaker
Mike Ruffale, whose name is GamerTagsHastro, he owns Team Envy, right? So he's already been giving us a lot of good advice on things that, you know, are going to be much more team-oriented, like,
Gameplay Experience & Team-oriented Design
00:42:25
Speaker
in the game.
00:42:25
Speaker
So when someone in the team subscribes, you know, that that those yeah vanity items, like that uniform or those weapon skins, those will be something available to everyone in who's a member of the team, things like that.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, I was just thinking like the example I love to use, I probably, Lewis is probably going to get tired of this, is I use like the Dallas Cowboys, have the Dallas Cowboys, you know, locker room and jerseys and colors and stuff. And that's what makes them unique as compared to like the 49ers or somebody else.
00:42:55
Speaker
It's their identifier. So, Yeah, it's like if you join a team, like you get all that that team has access to. You get their, you know, their locker room, their gym, you know, their meal plans and everything else. Like it it would be along those lines. We're really focusing in on what makes a team special. And so if you're on that team, you should feel special because of the team, not necessarily because of your individual accomplishments.
00:43:19
Speaker
As a team collectively, you should feel great. And that's why I think a lot of games, there's – They push so heavily towards the individual accomplishments that any kind of team play is just kind of like forgotten about. Like a classic example for me is Battlefield.
00:43:35
Speaker
like I'll take it to Battlefield Bad Company. i just remember I'm like an engineer repairing a tank and like, i you know, crest this certain point. Now I got access to this gun. I'm like, oh, well, I got to do is just repair stuff to get more guns.
00:43:49
Speaker
I'm not doing it to help the team. I'm doing it to yeah you know get stuff for myself. Like, okay, I'm just going to keep repairing every tank that I see. it it kind of... It's good intentions, but focused in the wrong direction, in my opinion.
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love team aspect. I think, you know, yeah I like your Cowboys other than being the Cowboys as your example, but I love, you know, it's an honor to wear that Jersey, to wear that uniform, to be a part of that. Right. And if you've got into that team, like yeah you should feel honored. Like ah I play call duty with my buddies and one guy hates domination because he doesn't know how to hold the spot. i'm like, we still need you to go out there and do your other stuff. Like just keep doing what you do good. And I'll take the spot. Like people don't understand Like,
00:44:30
Speaker
you can do things for not get the credit, but still win as a team. And when you build that team absolutely feeling, then you all win as a team. And you have that, like, that makes you want to go for that next game, whether you just win or you just You're like, we got to do one more. We got to do one more. and yeah It just keeps that itch itchy. And I think it's such a fantastic way to have it.
00:44:47
Speaker
That's right. There's also that, like I think there's a fundamental boundary of getting into those teams that a lot of people are like, ah, team games, oh man, I don't want to work together. But if it's easy to see and understand the, like, it's like understanding the game and the league and how we're have the setup. And it's like, I want this to be a seamless and transitionally like easy for people as possible. Like again, the accessibility should be like one to two clicks. You should be able to really join some kind of team and participate in this event, or you can literally just one click, just kind of play your random unranked matches or whatever you got in your spare time. No problem. But yeah like, you're always one click away from the pros. Like you're one or two clicks away from being, you know, on that championship winning team.
00:45:31
Speaker
Like it should be that simple.
Reflections, Learning & Closing Statements
00:45:33
Speaker
So yeah. All right. I have one last question for you guys. And that is this journey has taken you almost a full year now, right?
00:45:42
Speaker
If you look back at it and you can do one thing different and you can each have a different answer, what would you do different up to this point?
00:45:52
Speaker
Um, it's because, it you know, honestly, things, you know, i haven't it's there's always going to be struggles in any kind of creative endeavor. But I don't think ah there's any big regrets. If anything, we might have started the the raise sooner.
00:46:10
Speaker
right. Because that was always the issue. It was the timing of the of this particular crowdfund was weird because in November, oh, there was the election. You don't want to try to mess with that. And then suddenly it's Christmas.
00:46:22
Speaker
And then it's like, well, everybody's going to be worried about Christmas. And then it's January. And then it's like, well, everybody just spent their money on Christmas. So ah maybe we should have started it sooner or maybe we should have started it later. But that's um honestly the only thing just kind of because there's always going to be something else. You know, there's always something that that's that you deal with. And.
00:46:43
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I think a lot of people who are who want to go indie, they need to understand is that you're not going to have all the answers.
00:46:54
Speaker
You're going to have to become very comfortable with not knowing things. you know, and it's for a lot of reasons because things are always changing. The market's always changing. There are always new tools, you know, just the medium is always changing. So everything is always going to be new in a way.
00:47:13
Speaker
So You know, like we've done, i i think the best anyone could expect to do, honestly, you know, unless they, you know, unless, you know, they're, you know, they're godfathers like Elon Musk and could just sprinkle money on them, you know?
00:47:29
Speaker
So. Yeah, same. no No regrets, man. Yeah, the absolutely. What Lewis was saying, the timing was super important, but yeah, no regrets. Like, I think we we've done it as, I guess, as soundly as we could have. Like, I don't know. Like,
00:47:45
Speaker
Nothing jumps off the page. It's like, oh, I wish I could get that back again. Resave. Nope. Yeah. Love it. Yeah, exactly. Don't want to load any old saves. You know, that's a beauty is like, there's no reason to dwell in the mistakes of the past. You just learn from it. and You adapt and you go forward and you keep building upon what you build, right?
00:48:04
Speaker
If you sit there and you dwell on it, you're going to just kind of sit in your own shit for God knows how long. Absolutely. yeah The old adage, happiness is not the destination. It's the journey. There you go.
00:48:15
Speaker
You know, I i just haven't heard that. I feel like I should have heard that a lot sooner in my life. you go It's the doing. That's right. All right. I'm going to leave this one to Lewis. Lewis, where can we find Old Glory Studios? Where can we help pledge? What can we do?
00:48:30
Speaker
Sure. um First, ah you can go to oldglorystudios.us. If you want to support us, there's there's a link there. There's also just information about us and ah the games that we're making.
00:48:43
Speaker
And please also, you can go on Steam to find Victory's Grave Outflank. Just wishlist it and follow it on there too. Cool. We will have links to Old Glory. We'll have it to Victory's Grave.
00:48:56
Speaker
Both of you, Matt, Lewis, any final statements you want to say before we go today?
00:49:02
Speaker
I mean, just just thank you for having us on here. um Our main priority as a studio is to give players something that's really fun, that they'll really love to play. And like, you know, just like right now, like we're talking about all the good old times when we were playing LAN parties in the barracks and stuff.
00:49:21
Speaker
We want to give those memories to people. We want to give them the good old times that they're going to remember like 10, 15 years from now. So... Beautiful. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. This is, yeah, I, I think gamers are smarter than a lot of studios say that they are. I think they, they know what they want and I I'm planning to cater to them, like really focus in. And again, like I'm open to all the feedback and any kind of like positive and even negative criticisms, like bring it all. It's like, we're, we're here making a game for, if you like it, you like it. If you don't cool, man, like that's okay.
00:49:53
Speaker
Love you all. Like, it's great. Uh, Like Louis was saying, follow, wishlist, our game, Victories of the Game at Valflank, all of our social medias, Old Glory Studios across all platforms. Check us out.
00:50:05
Speaker
Awesome. Matt, Louis, love what you guys are doing. We're going to share all the links they mentioned about to Old Glory Studios, the fundraise, everything on our player-driven page. I'm excited to watch you guys' progress. I'm excited to see the game come out and learn more.
00:50:17
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us today, and I wish you guys the best of luck. Thanks very much. Thanks much. Thank you.