Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
From AAA to Indie: How Proactive Game Devs Change the Industry with Willem Kranendonk
9 Plays6 minutes ago
Episode Summary
What makes a great level designer? How do you take the leap from AAA studios to launching your own indie game studio? In this episode, Greg sits down with Willem Kranendonk, founder of Odyssey Cocktail Interactive and former level designer at Velen and Zynga. They discuss Willem’s journey from LEGO-loving kid to designing levels for Knockout City and Star Wars: Hunters, the philosophy behind great level design, and why he believes game studios need to take more risks. Willem also shares insights into his new studio, OCI, and their vision for "Cocktail Games"—a bold new approach to game development.
Guest: Willem Kranendonk
- Founder, Odyssey Cocktail Interactive
- Former Level Designer at Velen Studios (Knockout City) & Zynga (Star Wars: Hunters)
- Passionate about innovation in game design & the power of hybrid genres
Key Topics & Timestamps
⏳ 01:25 – From childhood LEGO builds to professional level design
🔨 06:15 – What is level design, really? (Hint: It’s more than just making maps)
🎭 12:30 – Finding creativity in unexpected places (Pink Floyd, JFK conspiracies & more)
🔥 22:00 – Proactivity in game development: Learning by doing
🏗️ 26:50 – Why Willem launched Odyssey Cocktail Interactive
🍸 36:40 – What are “Cocktail Games” & how they blend genres for fresh experiences
📢 41:58 – The importance of community-driven development
🚀 45:25 – The future of game development: Risk-taking, AI & industry shifts
Notable Quotes
🎤 “You can have all the great mechanics in your game, but it’s nothing without the right playground.” – Willem Kranendonk
🎤 "Level design is about executing the fun. It's about taking an idea and making it feel right." – Willem Kranendonk
🎤 “Indie games are taking the world by storm because they’re willing to take risks AAA studios won’t.” – Greg Posner
Resources & Links
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey Player Driven, here's what you're about to listen to in today's podcast. Today we're talking to the founder of Odyssey Cocktail Interactive, Willem Crandong. He's a level designer turned studio founder and he's got a really cool background.
Industry Innovation and Career Journey
00:00:11
Speaker
and We're going to talk about great level design and how it's about execution, not just creativity. We're going to talk about how being proactive is the key to breaking into the industry. We're also going to talk about how indie studios have the freedom to innovate. He's got a lot of cool information that he shares on this week's episode. It's a really great podcast and I hope you enjoy it.
Willem's Career Path at Velen and Zynga
00:00:35
Speaker
Good morning, good afternoon. Welcome to Player Driven, everyone. Greg here. Today, we are joined by the founder of Odyssey Cocktail Interactive, Willem Crandunk. He has a great history of working from companies of companies like Velen and Zynga.
00:00:50
Speaker
and decided to start his own studio of Odyssey Cocktail Interactive. And I'm really excited to hear this story. And I'm even more excited because he's a level designer. And so far, our level designers have been some of the most passionate people we've spoken to in the industry. And I think we're going to continue that trend here. Willem, thank you so much for joining us today. Anything I missed or anything you want to say about yourself? No, that's a great intro. Thank you for inviting me on the show. um it's It's fun to meet to an east coaster as well.
00:01:17
Speaker
um yeah Just thank you enormously for the invite. No, thank you. And I saw your announcement on LinkedIn about starting Odyssey cocktail interactive, which we'll talk about is OCI. I think we'll see how it goes. Um, and I loved the announcement. I looked at your history as well. Right. And you worked for Velen, which I truly fell in love with knockout city. And I see you were part of Zynga and you built levels for Star Wars hunters. And that's such a cool background. And now you just did decide to take that scary jump, but awesome jump into creating your own studio. And I want to get there, but let's start from the beginning of.
00:01:51
Speaker
You were a level designer for multiple studios. How did you figure out that is your passion? How do you know that's where you want it to be?
Passion for Level Design and Influences
00:01:59
Speaker
Well, i yeah first of all, great question. I actually don't get asked that a lot. I think um it's always kind of been there. My my grandfather was a civil engineer and so civil engineers tend to, you know, there tends to be quite architectural types of individuals. I always grew up loving shapes and designs of shapes. It just was very inherited. I never really thought that there was a profession like level design um really at any point in my life, but I realized it always was always there because I love building with Lego pieces, structures. I played a game called Blockland as a kid, which is, you're really, really old. You'll know it is a very silly and stupid game,
00:02:42
Speaker
and always tried to make my own dream house with a racetrack because I love Formula One and all that nonsense. And yeah, I had a lot of fun with my friends making always houses and this led to like my love for for making stuff in an engine. So, you know, on Minecraft I learned how to recreate Rapture just for fun. I know it sounds like I'm still a Dweebish teenager, but at the same time it was,
00:03:08
Speaker
It was really what began the path kind of to me figuring out what I wanted to do. And then I realized, actually, while I was working at Wake Ford as a QA analyst, now almost a decade ago, that it was, I had a good neck for working in editors. And I really liked building stuff in editors and took a year off from working in the industry. Actually, my whole was a year off, like seven, eight months off.
00:03:38
Speaker
to build a lot of blockouts. And I realized, okay, I got this. And then didn't think I was going to get a job. And then Velen knocked on my door and said, we're looking for a junior designer. Would you be interested? And that was really worth my career. I mean, my career started obviously before that. That's where really my level design career sort of kicked off and Knockout City. And it's not a bad game, I guess, to start your video game career as a level designer.
00:04:03
Speaker
No, I remember the levels of Knockout City. Me and my buddy, we played religiously. And I know you said you were part of the the sky, the the rooftop level, which is kind of the iconic one from that game. and I've cursed so many times at that level from falling off the bridge and and I thank you for being a part of that. And and I'm really curious. I love the analogy with the Legos, right? I sit and play Legos with my son now and he loves drawing, it but I never really thought of that as level design, but it makes really common i mean it's sense now that you've been talking about it, right? I guess, and this is a weird question, like what is level design actually?
Philosophy on Level Design and Game Intent
00:04:40
Speaker
are you
00:04:41
Speaker
Are you drawing it? Are you putting it on paper? Are you building the the blocks, the shapes? like what What is the concept behind level design? Well, I think every level designer has their own view. Some more generic than others. Some will say it's architecture. Some will say it's about guiding design principles. I'm a bit more Dutch about it, and I say that's all BS. I think it's all about executing the intent of the game in the end of the day. I think that's what level designers are, we're the great implementers. You can have all the great mechanics in your game, but it cannot be executed without good playground spaces to execute that gameplay. And and sometimes it's as simple as a plank of wood across two buildings. Sometimes it's it's more complicated, like, you know, you have a lot of verticality skyhooks in Bioshock Infinite or something like that. Other times it's
00:05:36
Speaker
You know, it's even more simple, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's just, uh, one like, you know, playing with a bunch of platforms you can jump up on bottom of the line, your goals as a level designer is just to execute by execute the vision of the design team. You're in the end of the day. Most of your gameplay is is going to come from whatever we execute as level designers in that space. And that's what I think makes, uh, makes our job quite interesting because it is about,
00:06:04
Speaker
understanding the game's hierarchy of needs. Um, I always believe that it's more prevalent in multiplayer games than maybe in single player games. But yeah, I think that's for me, at least that's probably what I, I believe is, is what a, what our job is. I love that answer. And you said execute the fun, then you kind of changed it to execute the vision of the design team. But I've spoken to many game directors that talk about finding the fun, right? So I guess.
00:06:32
Speaker
The game director and maybe some of the games are, or people who are creating the game, right? are Are trying to figure out how do we find the fun in this game? And now you're talking about how do we execute that? How do we make it fun? How do we make that translate to the actual map or look at the feel of the game? Am I kind of going down the right path here? Yeah, you are. You are. I mean, I'll tell you what, I'm not God city. That was like the number one thing. Feel fast, learn quick. That's, that's how you do it. But you can have like a thousand books and listen to like a thousand level design.
00:07:02
Speaker
Interviews or whatever the end of the day your game you have different needs for it I mean the level design for Knockout City versus Star Wars. You suit totally different games, you know Knockout City It's about finding a bowl and creating a space when you do have the ball. It's the spaces in between the transitioning on Star Wars hunters. It's yeah, that's bit of a mess overall, but it was mainly about flow, it was about getting to the objective clearly and structuring the architecture to get you to those spaces as cleanly as you can and effectively as effectively as you can. um But you know, I think that's, you know, yeah and even if I look at my single player experience on bark, you know, it's it's a 3X structure, Kishibuketsu philosophy, how you execute that in a 2D realm space, you know. You're actually, no level design book prepares you
00:07:52
Speaker
for making a shoot-em-up like that. you know And then even the stuff I did at Amazon, where we had a lot of the Kishin-Dinketsu philosophies for the game we were working on, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about, but what I can tell you is that you know it's it's a no role that applied even from the game that I worked on in TikTok with Bart or shoot-em-up could apply to that Amazon game. Because in the end, it's like, yeah, okay, you can have all these principles are wonderful and nice,
00:08:22
Speaker
The game doesn't feel fun when you put them in there. You've not executed your job correctly. And so ah to us, like, you know, to to me, I think regardless of whether you're an experienced level designer or a junior level designer, it's about breaking down your game in the best way possible. I think that's what makes um separates the good levels from the bad ones. You know, um the good levels are the ones that sort of break the traditional norms for the intent of the game in the best way possible.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that's a risk, right? And not necessarily a bad risk, but sometimes you play a level that's just too far from the norm. It's just like, this doesn't feel right. But I think, you know, without those risks, you don't get those rewards. And I think there's a payoff on on taking that. I think most players are willing to forgive a not great map if there's other maps in there. Right. As long as you take that risk, as long as you take
Adapting Level Design with Live Ops
00:09:14
Speaker
that chance. Right. ah And, you know, I'm a big Call of Duty player. Right. And you see with with each update, they do change the maps a little bit. They might put a new platform. They might put a new thing. and It's interesting how this world of live ops games allows you to make these changes on the fly, whether you love live ops or hate them, right? It does give you the ability to to make these changes on the fly based on feedback. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, again, I agree. I mean, that's, that's the cool thing. Like, you know, always from a live ops perspective, I always think throw what you can to the player and always build it up. Of course.
00:09:45
Speaker
you know You want to always, in the end, produce good maps, and and and and that's always subjective, but like you always want to do the highest quality that you believe is fun for the product youre you're creating. But I do think like you know players also don't want to see the same content toker in terms of level design. I feel like level designers today have gotten to that, which is a bit of a shame. I'm also, I grew up a big Call of Duty fan. If I see how much risk they were taking compared to what they're taking now,
00:10:15
Speaker
unparalleled. I don't know how you feel, but I always feel old Call of Duty, you know, from Modern Warfare onwards ah up until probably Black Ops 2. They took a great level of risk and and and and sort of evolved their experience into the thing that where we we see, you know, that we you get nostalgic about. Versus today, like, I can't really think of many um but I love the level of designers involved in the apology guy. I just want to make that clear. I'm not here to develop them. But what I am saying is I wish there were more risk in the levels that we're taking now. No three-lane stuff, you know, no no like sort of, you know, leading line sort of stuff. Like just just make the Call of Duty map you really want to make and try to get players to play everywhere in in these multiplayer spaces, rather than forcing gameplay to happen in very specific areas that you hypothetically
00:11:08
Speaker
think are going to bring people are to um and into the action. I think i think we have to but to go back to kind of like understanding what's fun with the version that you were given and continue to evolve that. And I think that's something that as a level designer, I would i always try to encourage juniors to to go for. And you know I think it can be applied to any you genre on the end.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really well said. I actually did a ah podcast with one of the Respawn studio heads. And he kind of mentioned that, you know, when you're ah more at the top of your game, right, you're afraid to take these risks as you've got the biggest player base, right? And if you mess it up, you don't want to lose those players, right? So yeah you become a little more risk adverse because you want to make sure that, hey, we don't want to rock the boat too much. But at the same time, then you get bored. Players will get bored. Something I really respect from Fortnite is that every season, they just radically change things up. They put different players, different different ways to interact with each other. And I think it's fascinating. and And I love the design that people take. Like, I don't know, it's just fascinating world to me. It is. And, you know, it's only going to, I think, respawn are probably on the west, at least, and probably revolve, probably like the great risk takers with their their level design, honestly, in the end. And I think
00:12:26
Speaker
I'm hoping that they will continue to to be that North Star for, you know, that what the the Western level design approach that I think a lot of societies look towards going forward. And I'm a big fan of Respawn. Anything they do, I'm a big fan of. We just need Titanfall 3. That's all I keep asking for. Where's Titanfall 3? And maybe this will be the big update they come out with in a couple of days here. Maybe they'll say, hey, hey, we're going to throw some ah Titans in there. I'm just converting all the way to Titanfall. Exactly.
00:12:55
Speaker
um I'm curious on on where you draw your inspiration from, right? How do you, when you hit that creativity block, like what do you do to kind of open up your mind again? You know, I think for me, it's, I indulge in my passion. Honestly, I take risks, um, by just, you know, always opening my mind to certain genres and and themes. And I always get out of my comfort zone as much as I can. That's the number one thing I do.
00:13:22
Speaker
I just make the same type of level over and over again, like if I make a rooftop rumble four or five times, I'm not, um first of all, failing as a level designer and I'm especially failing as creative. You know what I mean? Like every map that I've ever worked on, I put myself in a different booth. I mean, for rooftop rumble, I remember music was a big part of with my sort of vision on how to
Self-Teaching and Learning Design Skills
00:13:48
Speaker
how to get motivated, because for whatever reason, it just puts you in a zone and you just sort of, at that time, it calmed me down. It was in a certain situation in mental space by then. So I listened to a lot of Pink Floyd, which I know is very odd, but I didn't listen to Dark Side of the Moon. I listened to that Adam ah adamnna muer um Mother, which is a very long 23-minute David Gilmore style.
00:14:12
Speaker
um uh shoo um and then for like you know like and then we go to like uh vader's castle and it was honestly it was a lot of podcast listening you know it's it's like what how we get from vader's castle to to that and it was like very specific like it was i think it was to do with uh some jfk assassinations or something like that the conspiracies that come from that right It's like you you go from that to to to Dark Vader's cast. It's like, right, okay. My point is this, I like to just sort of have something that's kind of out of that world to zone me back into that world. It kind of keeps me split way, distracted in the right way. um And in terms of like how creatively I sort of change it, I i don't know. I just, I do mood boarding. I just do a lot of paper designs. I experiment. I try all kinds of shapes. I walk in.
00:15:09
Speaker
What I like to do, my favorite thing that I like to do is if there's a multiplayer game that allows me to walk around like alone in the editor of the current mechanics, I'll just do that. Analyze, take screenshots, take videos, and show how I do certain actions. And then I'll capture that and try to bring some of that geometry into the space and see if it completes it, which I did for Vader's Castle, actually. I got inspiration from, God, what, I meant the names.
00:15:38
Speaker
sort of goes back to me, it's this spec ops the line, which is an underrated classic. If anyone hasn't played it, it's it's awesome. um And yeah, that's essentially how I think, how I think creatively, how I continue to think creatively.
00:15:54
Speaker
nothing like a good podcast to help ah help build out Vader's castle. I love that. I love how you can find this creativity ah in in more than just visuals, right? I mean, and i you know, when you look at level design, right, I know it may be doesn't seem like the obvious thing. But it's I'm sure it's just the more than just visuals that make that level, right? The sound comes in and everything, right? It's that full immersive experience. I love how it's just not visuals for you that's helping paint that picture. And I think it shows that it's a bigger, bigger piece than people think. Yeah, and I think, you know, obviously with Vader, with Darth Vader and Vader's castle, like, I knew we were going to do that. And, you know, big Star Wars fan, like,
00:16:35
Speaker
unapologetically big Star Wars fan. And I don't mean it in like the way where people are like, Oh my God, I work on Star Wars blah, blah, blah. Like I'm the type of guy who laughs his butt off whenever I see Dexter Jutzer and start doing the voice and whatever. That's the type. yeah So I really kind of know going into that, like Darth Vader, like I know what you're going to get from that architecturally.
00:16:57
Speaker
Um, so for me, what's important is like, okay, you know, what's going to look like you have your artists is going to help you move forward and all that. And even then if you don't have an artist, like I already have my own private move board to know what to do and how to do things. It's always and important to take your life a little bit outside of the game to motive it, like to motivate your creativity, uh, towards it. And that's why like, I'll always do something different every single time.
00:17:23
Speaker
but My inspiration actually was there was a famous F1 driver called Sebastian Vettel, who actually isn't my favorite racing driver. i I love the guy. He's a very sweet guy from what I read and i' seeing online. But Vettel, he does this thing where every year he names his car. He doesn't always gives it a different name. It doesn't matter what it is. It has has has no no like secret meaning to it. He just comes up with a name that allows him to have a fresh reset.
00:17:50
Speaker
Although that said, he does take quite far his names. Like one of the car names he called it was Kate's Dirty Sister or something like that. Like where did that come from? um Like that's kind of how I did the same thing too, you know, with with with everything I've done. And even with with OCI, like, you know, when we were coming up with like, well, how I wanted to think about starting the company, it's about kind of going outside of what I traditionally know. Otherwise I can't stay fresh in that.
00:18:19
Speaker
and in in my mind, you kind of always have to do that in an R and&D industry. So I'm not sure how to ask this question. So I'm just going to try and phrase it to see if it makes sense. So as a level designer, you know, I always thought you needed to know coding to get into gaming, but I'm assuming with a level design, you don't need to know coding. What are the skill sets that you would say to someone that's in school right now that they would want to be able to learn to be able to be a successful level designer? with I think One of the things I noticed with a lot of junior level designers is, first of all, you have to you have to have the mentality that no one is going to hold your hand. I studied in a Dutch university. I'm half Dutch, but I'm mainly American. It may not sound like it, but I am American first and foremost. I don't have the resources in this country or the Netherlands. I mean, I don't live in the Netherlands, but in the Netherlands, life that you don't have any
00:19:18
Speaker
level designers that you can go to and call to help you with like the basics of learning stuff. So I was very self-taught. So I think the number one thing you have to do is self-teach yourself. No matter what it is, design, engineering, it doesn't matter. You you always have to. And you have to be passionate to learn that. If you're not, and you're like saying, oh, I want to be a level designer, blah, blah, blah, whatever, because I just want to, good luck. like you need to You need to be proactive in your job.
00:19:44
Speaker
um and and And the second thing is learn your editors, learn as many as you can. Don't be proficient in just Unreal Engine 5. Don't be proficient in just Unity. Go beyond that. When I started level design properly, I learned one of the most difficult editors you can work with, which is Hammer, source source SDK, which any of the old school level designers can tell you is the equivalent of hell. um It is absolutely terrible.
00:20:14
Speaker
um in in a way where it's very buggy and it's very complicated and and and it's a very specific workflow you have to work with. But that's prepared me for everything because for Knockout City, for instance, at like when we were developing the proprietary editor for that game, I used a lot of my experience in how we uploaded custom materials from that to apply it into our game, working with the environment artists so that we can prototype faster and then therefore we get to the fun.
00:20:41
Speaker
So the point about being a level designer is all the hypothetical stuff, all the theories and all that, that's nice and all, like that does help. And I believe in it too, despite me criticizing it from both podcasts. But the most important thing is you need to you need to get in there and actually start producing that content. And something that's a bit lost, especially in Western development today is the lack of correctness that a lot of junior developers have to get that. So if you're a junior right now, you know, ah sure learn the tutorials quickly in Unreal 5, just get on with it, get creating in it, you know, put some geometry in there, even if you don't know how brushes work, get some primitives, learn how the gizmo works. I mean, I still, to this day, use primitives to make most of my levels. Some people will think, oh, it must be, you know, it must be out of his mind, but
00:21:37
Speaker
on Knockout City, I had no choice in some cases, because it's just how we did things. And you know in yeah, I mean, some tools are are luxury. And so in the end, you have to work with the tools you have. just be Basically what I'm trying to say is you can be someone who has a paintbrush and knows how to use a paintbrush. But in the end of the day, you just have to get on with it and continue practicing the craft to hone in on that paintbrush spin. And that's my advice to anyone.
00:22:06
Speaker
I love how you put that. Um, we talked to a lot of people in the podcast and, you know, layoffs have been tough in the industry, right? And people are kind of sitting wallowing upset, which is up so understanding, right? But, but be proactive, build something. If you want to be a community manager, go out there and try and build a community up. If you want to be an artist, go create some images. If you want to be an indie developer, go and build a game and it's going to be good. Maybe not, but it's going to give you experience and then you're getting grow from there. You're going to get better and better. I love the idea of be proactive, right?
00:22:36
Speaker
go chase what you want it's not gonna just fall into your lap you have to go get it and i love the fact that you said you need to keep holding that craft i mean if you look at the best baseball players hockey players football players right there still have coaches are there coaches as good as they are no but they still need that practice they need to go out there they need to home those tools to make sure that they work for them and i think this is a perfect.
Founding Odyssey Cocktail Interactive
00:22:57
Speaker
transition into Odyssey Cocktail Interactive because you want to build this studio. So let's start talking about that. But before we do so, we're going to do a little fireball around here where I'm going to throw some questions at you. So you good to go? Sure. Let's do it. All right. What did you have for breakfast? Oh, God. ah This morning, I had porridge and water, not milk, which my brother thinks I'm still Stuck in some sort of war in an internal universe. But yeah, that's yeah. Sounds like you're in the Netherlands. I feel like a like yeah I feel like I had some porridge this morning. Wonderful. um What is your dream vacation?
00:23:37
Speaker
all wouldn it I mean, I'm going to be probably moving to Japan. So I don't think that's what we are moving to Japan. But I would say probably I go back to Greece. I love It's my mom's home country. I've been there most of my life. Um, I'd go to the Pena police and just get lost and no internet, nothing. And just sit there, read a book and read about Lord Byron or something like that. Can you let our audience know a handful of the places that you lived and let us know which one has the best food? Oh God. Ah, um, I have a long list. so I know you did that. Um, so I was born in San Francisco. I moved from
00:24:20
Speaker
San Francisco to war-torn Indonesia in the late 90s and then got evacuated to Greece and then to Greece to Chile and then Santiago specifically and then Santiago to the UK and then the UK to the Netherlands then l LA and then back to Holland again and then back to um to to New York and then to to Austin, Texas, which is where I currently live.
00:24:45
Speaker
um And I would say the best country for food can probably be Greece. I think even Gordon Ramsey said if the best of the three was between kids to be friends in Greece, he actually preferred Greek cuisine. I'm biased, but yeah, it's it's awesome. It's very simple and it's it's the best. And yeah, I love it. All right. Great answer. Now I'm going to have to go to Greece. It's on my bucket list now. ah country What is the last movie or TV show you watched?
00:25:14
Speaker
Last movie, I just watched it last night. It's Onibaba, which is the the which is um god is called Demon Hag in translation. It's an awful name for something, but it's a Japanese horror movie and it's a cult classic. It's about these two peasant women who rate the corpses of dead samurai during a war. One of the girls falls in love with a former guy who participated in the war. I don't know, in what timeline. And she accidentally gets a possessed mask. One of the girls who's older That's the hag part, I guess. Again, it's Awful Nate, the older one, and it turns it into some demon preacher and and like tries to scare the other girl from you know falling in love with this this man that she's falling in love with. And it's crazy, it's weird, and it's a brilliant movie. You can watch it on YouTube. All right. and that That's an answer for sure. That's an answer. I don't have a TV show. I'm not watching a lot at the moment.
00:26:12
Speaker
All right. Last question. Maybe the easiest, maybe the toughest. Uh, you don't have to say the favorite, but if I were to say, choose a level that really stands out with level design that you had nothing to do with what level you're going to choose or what game.
00:26:28
Speaker
Damn. Um, I mean, the game that really inspired me was bio shark. Um, welcome to rapture. It's opening this great, but I adore a port for all. like Um, I think it's, um, it's, it's this an incredible, incredible, um, section of the game. Yes. It's, you know, it's, um, fetch quest eliders, you know, it's, it's a lot of fetch questing, but it's so good and still aged well to the escapes dead to this day. Um, with this casing and all that, um, love it, but probably my favorite level or Ravenholm, but you know, everyone says Ravenholm. So.
00:27:10
Speaker
All right. So let's go back to our normal scheduled episode here. So the last thing we talked about is how you have to be proactive, right? You can't just sit and wait
Innovative Hybrid Game Development
00:27:20
Speaker
for something to happen. So you've been a level design your last at Zynga. What in your mind, and it's the wrong way to ask her, right? What made you say this is the time to go for it? Yeah. You know.
00:27:34
Speaker
I always wanted to start a studio, but I always felt like it had to be the right timing. I tried to start one up before I went to Zynga, just because I didn't think anyone was ever going to take a gamble on me, honestly, on the level design side. I know some people are like shocked to hear that, but when you deal with rejection over a rejection and you are you know getting tired of it, like you know i don't I don't like going through adversity over and over again. But anyway, um I felt the reason I wanted to do this is one I felt like in the West at least, we're just approaching game development wrong. And this side especially, and especially on the studio front too. I think there's too much over-reliance of let's do this game, but let's have a new coat of paint on them. I think we talked about this before the cold, but I think the the important thing is how do we actually create new RID products? I was tired of getting seeing the same game over and over, but in game quality,
00:28:34
Speaker
Today, I know people can complain about it, but quality of games today is just incredible compared to what it was before. you know And so i don't I'm not worried about the quality per se of the games, but I'm worried about, are we actually taking risks? And so I felt there was a new way to approach it by maybe you know bringing a lot of hybrid games, but also by doing a philosophy where we're not reinventing that genre, which costs a lot of money to do that.
00:29:01
Speaker
you know we can We can essentially save a lot of cost in the process just to make brand-new, innovative products. you know Our tools are faster than ever before. Our developers are more you know knowledgeable of what can go wrong than ever before. We have all the analysis in the world, things to Google, chat GPT, whatever you can think of. I don't see a reason why we can't take more risks that use a lot of the foundations that have already been provided to be able to make these games. And thus, I want to start OCI and our Odyssey cocktail interactive. And I think it's ah it's a big jump for me. I don't, you know, being honest, this is not my forte, but where I do believe that in the end of the day, it would be nice to start creating some jobs and creating some new experiences to optimize, blood into
00:29:55
Speaker
make more players optimistic, I guess. I think you said a lot of great things there that are fantastic. I think quality of games over the past few years has drastically gone up, but the problem is there's been a lot more games in here that also kind of skew what people think. And I think it was, I don't know if it was take two or someone, but one of their heads stepped down yesterday because under the games they they announced had a lackluster ah reception by people. It was basically a Fortnite clone, right? And I mean,
00:30:25
Speaker
I was just like, all right, why are we going to try and build Fortnite again and again? And I love how the indie world is starting to take the world by storm. I think Bellatro is a great example of that. How, hey, we take something simple, but something that we haven't seen before and we repaint it and we do that. And I love how you're telling yourself that you may not be ready for this. you and You don't necessarily know all the things that you need to know, but how do you surround yourself with the right people to help build that out? Have you thought about the people you want to include in that and kind of sold them in that vision?
00:30:54
Speaker
Well, one of my closest friends is a guy called Grant Arthur. And he always said to me, you know, you're probably the most excited about making games that I know. And he's been 30 plus years in the industry. um And um for me, I know that I won't, ah well I know that there are people who maybe you're even more enthusiastic about it, but it is hard to find those types. I think for us, we're looking for people who are very agile, regardless of resumes or any of that, like new people, the team that I really want to build a team that I think enjoy making games more than they like playing them. And I think there is a surprising amount that's increasing over time. I don't think we're the type to to really hold on to.
00:31:37
Speaker
to to telling people what makes a great game. I think we're the types who like, okay, let's just get in there, and then we'll tell you what's a great game afterwards. So I think that's number one. So we're passionate about making games. We're agile to make these games, and we're not scared about any genre or or any of that. And that's, I think, the third quality, which is that you know we're the type of people we want in our team are the type of people who don't get scared of an editor, don't get scared of a piece of software. I see like you know i say blank game needs blank game,
00:32:07
Speaker
they go, right, what do you need it in? I want it in unity. Cool. I don't know anything about unity. Who cares? We'll learn it right now. That's the type of team you want to have. I know it's a dream team, but you'd be surprised there is a surprising amount that is available. I think the only good that's come from the layoffs, and I was awful to say that has been that there's a lot of that talent that is available that studios are not taking a chance on. And we're lucky on our team, we've got some amazing people um you've discovered over the last few weeks and months or so that that have stepped up to the plate to fill up that void. So yeah, and just being more picky with who we want. We need people who want to work with me, not i want to have it so that you can tell people on LinkedIn that they worked on it. We really want people who want to to to to make these games regardless if it's you know one specific genre or not. um And our passions, again, passion, agility,
00:33:04
Speaker
and, um you know, ability to to to to survive in any ah situation. You kind of connected a lot of parts of what we spoke about earlier to now. First of all, you talked about people who are willing to be proactive. What we spoke about, hey, I haven't i don't know Godot, I don't know Unity, but I'm willing to learn that. no The beauty of the day and age we are in today is you can go on YouTube and find tutorials on how to do any of this stuff. Whether you hate chat, GPT, or love it, I can say, hey, I need to create a game in Unity, and it will give me a starting point. is it going to be good? No, it probably won't be good. And people are gonna say, Hey, this is AI. Yeah, it is AI. But it's a starting point. From there, it's up to me to make it my own, make it my own vision and build it out. But it's a starting point. And sometimes the starting point is the hardest point to do it. And the passion, that's the one thing you say that really
00:33:54
Speaker
interested me because, you know, you said you were wanting to find people who are more interested in making games than necessarily playing games. And I've always under under the assumption that people who play games know how to make the best games. And I know it's not one to one, but I find that fascinating. Hey, that there's people out there that love to make games, but maybe not play them as much. ah And I think it's good to look for people like that because you need both sides of the coin to understand, hey, I'm really good at making games. I don't necessarily love to play this type of game, but I know exactly what to do it and help share those best practices with the others. And I think people in the studio can start to build off each other like that. You can learn from one person, they can learn from the other. What what I'll say is like, and I self confess, it's like I've mainly been known for multiplayer experiences.
00:34:37
Speaker
And that's been my background, but ask anyone who has worked with me and they'll tell you that I'm one of the worst multiplayer designers they've ever seen. I mean, seriously, I'll knock out Citi, like people were getting up on me so that they can get free points. And it's fine, I don't care. You know, it's funny. I mean, look, and then vice versa, I also know a lot of players, like proper video game players who are fantastic video game developers too, right? I think for for me, what's important is that they, in the end, you have The way I see it is that it is a privilege to do this for a living, to make games. You know, most people don't have that privilege and in in most parts of the world and in the US and in wherever you can think of. And what we do, we are lucky to do it for a living. So we spend every day making this the moment that really, you know, defines the rest of our lives. And so I think for me, that's the type of people you want to invest in.
00:35:37
Speaker
You know, you can have an amazing resume, 30, 40, 50 years of making games on the blood. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to make a great game or be a good studio head in doing that or or whatever position you are. And vice versa. You could be a junior who you think on paper with all their experience sounds great. It ends up being very hand-holding and you'd have to, you know, guide them to the promised land. Bottom of the line, they need to come in and they need to be less interested in necessarily working for OCI or even for themselves.
00:36:07
Speaker
They have to come in because they know they've got a shot to do something really, really fun and special. Because they get players, but they also get the idea of fulfilling the creativity that the game needs. And that's what you want to do. And my job is as the as the boss at the end, it doesn't matter what I think, what matters is my team comes in and they're they're excited to to to make games. And we're we're very lucky, our team at least, that we're we're able to do that.
00:36:33
Speaker
So why cocktail games when you, when you first announced this, you were talking about cocktail games and why don't we start at the higher explanation of what is your concept of a
Creating Innovative Cocktail Games
00:36:43
Speaker
cocktail game? And I know we can't go into the details cause nothing's been fully announced, but like, where's the vision leading you? So cocktail, as I alluded, the idea is to go back to basics rather than just let's reinvent name X genre racing genre.
00:36:59
Speaker
We start bringing components that made the racing genre so successful that true players end, but also then combine it with something else that maybe has nothing to do with racing, but could work together with it and see kind of what comes out of it. And I get the way I see it as I, I don't know if I explained it to you last time, the way I see it is, it's like a good cocktail drink. You know, we, Gin, I see a lot of games like Gin and Equivalently Atomic, if you take these two ingredients, right?
00:37:29
Speaker
Everyone's trying to perfect both of these ingredients, spending more and more and more money, and maybe it tastes better than the other. But it still tastes exactly the same. It's still gin, it's still tonic. So what you have to do is go back to the basics and go, oh, you just combine them and see what comes out of it. And results, you get a pretty fine drink. And so that's cocktail we've created, I'd argue. That's kind of why we want to see our games. And that's both the high level and honestly the the deeper level of ah of the development of these of our games. And I think it allows us to be quite versatile in the market. It means that we're not going to be known just for you know making a specific genre game or multiplayer games or racing games or whatever we know for cocktail games. So a wide variety of different games. And that keeps us on our feet. It allows us to adapt to different market challenges that present ourselves. and
00:38:21
Speaker
Also, even within them, be able to stand out in a different aspect of it. So that's that's essentially the type of studio we wanted to create whilst being cost effective, which I think this allows us to do.
00:38:33
Speaker
i Yeah, I like the conversation. I like the the analogy to the cocktail, because that's what it is. And that's what makes sense. And I've always heard over time is that some of the best games come up when you start mixing genres that start to make sense, right? ah And less people take these chances, or or they take it in a weird way. So, you know, you're you're in startup mode here, right? What are what are your like lists of to do is like, where are you at?
00:38:58
Speaker
So right now we're looking for a publisher. I mean, like, we've we've done a lot of due diligence. We're doing the, you know, we've we've pretty much got a base team up and running from across the world. we're gonna We're very international studio. I'm an international person. So, you know, I really do think the talent is outside of North America. And I think honesty is now, art might be even better in some places around the world on average.
00:39:25
Speaker
um You know, we're we're right now we're looking for a publisher for our ah prototype that we've just finished. We're forced to finishing new aspects of it, and it's a very exciting prototype, and we're partnering with the studio or company that I can't announce just yet that we're talking to that's helping us co-develop this experience. But I think it's a clever way of approaching our early goals of, you know, let's get a really good-looking prototype in a short amount of time.
00:39:53
Speaker
um and um Honestly, that's what we're looking for. We're looking either really for publishers or at least an investor into our business. And we've also been diversifying ourselves, like, you know, how do we raise money? And we're we're trying to touch to get into co-developer for outsourcing work for the some of the games that could require us to do that. um And that's it. So how long does this prototype actually take to put together? Current prototype, again, we'll talk about
00:40:25
Speaker
practice to this, we did in less than, uh, say now we're in day 23. Yeah. Day 23. It's almost done. Nice. You got your own a little game jam going on there, building this stuff out. It's really cool. And it has, the only thing I can say about it is that the righteous, I'm a little bit things that people know me about, but also it's something that's quite surprising and unexpected. When is the right time to start to market? When we get a publisher.
00:40:54
Speaker
which will be we hope as soon as possible. I think, honestly, our goal is to try and release this particular game sometime in the next year or so, but that's that's the optimist in me. I think we have something very special, and I think something that, okay, some people might be scared to to put publishing money into, but honestly, our team has been able to adapt to any challenge so far,
00:41:22
Speaker
And I think it's so different from anything else. on wise I ah don't see a reason why we can't go to market as soon as possible. Most likely it will be an early access product, but I can't review more than that.
00:41:36
Speaker
So I'm curious on, you know, we often talk about building community. That's something we'd like to talk about in this podcast. Right. And I think Manor Lords is a good example of, you know, they built up the community, the game got boosted because of the community. And I realized there's a handful of games that can manage to strike lightning. I don't know what the right word to say there is, right. It's why why wait for the publisher before building out a community? Is that just kind of a, your own thought process? I'm just yeah curious about that.
Community Building through Feedback
00:42:07
Speaker
We want to build a – I think I'm a very extroverted person, so community is very important to me. I love talking to players, fans, journals, other developers about any game. It's always been like that. I have my own Discord server mainly for game developers. I haven't, I'll be honest, used it for a while because of starting the business and also wrapping up production on Star Wars took a lot out of me. But I think community comes from listening to feedback addressing feedback, executing feedback, no matter in what form it is, whether it's how you apply your Discord logo, how you talk to people, how you address the game concerns that maybe, you know, addressing the voices you can't hear in the back of the room, finding ways to get to the back of the room to hear those voices. I think that's honestly how I i address it is always try to get everyone heard. Listen, Mike,
00:43:06
Speaker
I can tell you what makes my game great and what makes my studio great. In the end, the community matters more. I want them to enjoy the ride and be a part of it. And I want them to know that they're going to be a part of it no matter what. Love it. Love it. I think one thing we can do is, you know, where where does the industry go from here? I think optimism, investing into these type of people who really want to create jobs and get the most out of people. I think this is honestly what's but's important to me.
00:43:34
Speaker
And I love how you said it, you know, the layoffs is a very disappointing and upsetting time for the industry, but it's also kind of a light, this glimmer of hope that, you know, everyone says for the longest time, and MBAs took over gaming, right? Everyone's just trying to make a bottom dollar at the end of the day, and it's all they care about. But, but villain yourself and there's other people out there that just love making games and they're going to continue making games. And I think it's a really positive thing that will, will happen over the course of the next couple of years. It's just, we have to get through this rough patch, uh, in order to get there. But, you know, as we talked about multiple times here, right? Proactiveness go out there.
00:44:11
Speaker
make a game. It may not be good. I watched this hour-long video on the making of Balochro and it's just fascinating how he had no intent to make a real game and all of a sudden it turned into what it was. And there should be more people that take chances like that out there because You know, there's all different types of gamers. My mom's a gamer now. My sister's a gamer, right? Because they all play these games on their phone and there's something for everyone out there. And I think people just need to take these chances. when When you take a look at kind of what the industry is turning into, are there tools? Do things like AI scare you or
Future of Indie Studios and AI
00:44:43
Speaker
excite you? Like how does the future look from ah the point of making games?
00:44:50
Speaker
I'm optimistic. I think I'm optimistic because I think the whole $700 million dollars budgeted games are over. I think you know i think we we the the guys in the big chairs ordering other guys with vi with smaller chairs making games are going to deplete. I think it's going to go back to the creatives. I think it these creatives today are going to be more proactive than ever before. I mean, this' i mean look at respawn. Respawn is a really good example of this. There's going to be another respawn.
00:45:20
Speaker
There's going to be another media tonic. There's going to be another From Software. It's it's right there. And I'm hoping OCI i can reach even 1% of those heights. But I'm i'm not scared of of of AI. I think if AI is pretty tippy to even we should use it. i'm also I also think the creative in the end is going to dictate on the vision of the game. And it's what's deep in Steven Spielberg says, yeah, AI, embrace it.
00:45:49
Speaker
there's no replacement for Steven Spielberg. As the same with, there's no replacement for Ken Levine, Todd Howard, um you know, these these these legends Miyamoto, you know, Kojima, you're not going to get those guys replaced ever. And vice versa, the creatives that are up and coming now, you're not either. I mean, Balocho's story is a real example of this. You can have, like, it is proven over and over again.
00:46:15
Speaker
the people who want to be there, want to make the games, are going to see that in the final product. But Lockjaw is a great example. I love that story. I love the story of Lorian, even with how long it took to make that game. You can see there's been a lot of love put into that. I love the story of how Elden Ring was made and how the CEO took a cut to make sure he can pay his team These are the type of studios to make players get excited about the future. Those are the studios going to be making great games. I tell you what, there's a lot more coming after all this. It's going to be a blast the next few years. Yes, it's rough right now, but we have an obligation. I have an obligation as a guy who's running a studio to do right by those bugs.
00:47:04
Speaker
Man, the energy from level designers. I don't get it. It's just you guys have so much passion for the industry and I love it. I think your insight on the industry and where it's going, where it's been, how it goes full circle is just fantastic. I love your thought on AI. I think AI is a fantastic tool that everyone should utilize and take a look at, but it's not going to replace the human element of it. There's going to be these human interactions that like creativity isn't something a computer can truly replicate. And it's fascinating what it can do. But the mind of ah Kojima, right, or Ken Levine, and who Todd Howard, right, like, they just have something that is special. And I think more people have that than they think they just need to take these chances. and
00:47:46
Speaker
test themselves, right? It's scary, but you got to just take these chances because every once in a while you're going to find that diamond in a rough and all of a sudden that's it. But you can't find that diamond without looking for it. And these tools, these people, everyone that's available can be utilized to help you find that diamond. So you can either sit on the sidelines waiting for someone to call you in, or you can go in and start making your own team and building your own team, which is what you're doing at OCI.
00:48:09
Speaker
And I think it's a fantastic endeavor and I think you have something great that can be really fun once it's all said and done. So first off, Willem, thank you so much for this. I think, again, your insights are just fantastic.
Closing Remarks and Contact Information
00:48:21
Speaker
Let us know a little bit more. Where can we find OCI? Where can we find you? Yeah. So you can find me actually on LinkedIn. I don't really have social media as much as I used to. I do have threads, but I do often regret that. I don't even know what my threads is. I think it's a Willem underscore credit dollar.
00:48:39
Speaker
that you can, I'm sure if you find my name, you'll find me somewhere. But I am on LinkedIn, we do have our own website, odysseyoptillinteractive.com. um And we'll also be, we're looking to be quite present at GDC, so if you're at GDC, you might see me there, do follow us on our socials and we'll know more about that as time goes by. We're not currently hiring, to be honest yet, but we are,
00:49:07
Speaker
When we do, you'll, you'll know it through our social media. pay link to Cool. We will have information for everything from villain to OCI on the player driven website. I think you're doing some great stuff. Once there's a prototype available, I'd love to be able to give it a shot, test it out, share some, some stuff from it when possible. And I will be stalking you down at GDC because I will be there as well. So oh coupleletic builds we'll have it there.
00:49:32
Speaker
Boom, there we go. Again, thank you so much for today. I am looking forward to learning more and best of luck with everything. Likewise. Thank you, Greg. Stay safe and thank you for being by.