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How Sonya Haskins' Unique Journey Helped to Redefine Expectations about XR
45 Plays1 month ago
Episode Summary
In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Sonya Haskins (Head of Programming at Augmented World Expo) shares her unexpected path into the world of XR—from a homeschool mom and non-gamer to a competitive VR esports athlete and community advocate. Joined by Lewis Ward (Research Director at IDC), we explore her inspiring story of healing through VR, battling harassment in immersive spaces, and her vision for more inclusive, player-driven virtual worlds.
This one’s raw, real, and packed with insights on XR safety, community building, and the untapped power of play.
🔑 5 Key Takeaways
- VR as a LifelineSonya discovered VR in 2017 and credits it with helping her manage chronic pain, regain physical independence, and even lose 40 pounds—all while seated, gaming daily.
- Esports as EmpowermentStarting in Echo Arena, Sonya became one of the top players—despite being a middle-aged woman in a male-dominated space. She proved that skill, not stereotype, determines success.
- Toxicity in VR is Real—But FixableShe shares harrowing experiences of harassment and doxxing, but also offers hope: community-led moderation, tools like ToxMod, and peer pressure can shift the culture.
- Why Gorilla Tag WorksThe smash-hit XR game owes much of its success to player autonomy and a dev team that listened from day one. Players invent their own rules—just like on a playground.
- AWE's New Gaming HubSonya teases a massive new initiative debuting at AWE: a full-on Gaming Hub featuring a Games Pavilion, dev stage, networking events, and hands-on VR experiences. Gamers, take note—June in Long Beach is going to be big.
🧠 Topics Covered
- How a VR headset at Best Buy changed Sonya’s life
- Using Echo Arena to recover from physical limitations
- Sexism and harassment in early XR environments
- The evolution of moderation and safety tools in VR
- Gorilla Tag’s runaway success and community-first model
- The future of AWE and why gaming is taking center stage
- Personal resilience, reinvention, and the human side of tech
🔗 Resources & Mentions
- AWE (Augmented World Expo): https://www.awexr.com
- Lewis Ward, IDC: XR & gaming industry insights
- Sonya's Handle: Hasko7 across social platforms (Twitter, LinkedIn, BlueSky, Facebook)'
Sponsor:
🎮 This episode is brought to you by Nexys Mobile – the only wireless carrier built for gamers, by gamers. Whether you’re grinding ranked or exploring open worlds on the go, Nexys delivers ultra-low latency, unlimited data, and reliable performance when it matters most. No contracts. No throttling. Just pure mobile power for the player in all of us.
Level up your connection at nexysmobile.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:01
Speaker
We have two podcasts we recorded live from GDC, so please excuse in the audio or weird types of things that happen. Sometimes you can't control things that are happening in the environment, and you just got to deal with it, which is what we did.
00:00:13
Speaker
For these two interviews, I was honored to be joined by Louis Ward. He's the director of gaming, VR, XR, all these insights from the IDC. Make sure you check them out. And this interview is with Sonia Haskins.
00:00:24
Speaker
She is the... program manager at the AWE. We're going to learn about VR, AR, gaming, what the environment's like, the toxic stuff that she had to put up. It was a really fascinating interview.
00:00:37
Speaker
It was really cool. Lots of cool insights. I really hope you do enjoy this interview and let us know what you think about it afterwards.
00:00:49
Speaker
This episode of Player Driven is brought to you by Nexus Mobile. You can check them out at nexus, N-E-X-Y-S, mobile.com. They sent me their Red Magic 10 phone, which is a blazing fast phone using the Snapdragon Elite 8, where I've been playing COD, I've been playing Archero, I've been editing podcasts in CapCut with no problem.
00:01:08
Speaker
Their plans start at $25 month, and you should check them out again at nexus, N-E-X-Y-S, mobile.com. and Enjoy the
Meet Sonia Haskins and Louis Ward
00:01:15
Speaker
show. Hey guys, this is Greg from Player Driven. We are here at GDC and we are with Sonia Haskins from AWE.
00:01:22
Speaker
And I'm also with Lewis Ward from the IDC and we're going to do a little impromptu podcast here at GDC. I'm going to let Lewis here take the reins. I'll jump in with some side questions, but Sonia, thank you so much for coming out. Before I give it to Lewis, how's your GDC been?
00:01:37
Speaker
Oh, it's been great so far. Thank you. So yeah, Sonia, great to see you again. Thank you very much hope you're having a good show.
Sonia's VR Journey Begins
00:01:44
Speaker
um One of the things that we've talked about a little bit in the past, but I'd like to know more about is kind of how you got into XR in the first place, because I think it's, from what I heard, it's a very impressive story. And so I'd love to hear, i know you were into e-sports and Echo Arena, but let me hand it over to you to explain how you first broke into XR, because, ah yeah you know, it's an ah it's an amazing story.
00:02:06
Speaker
Well, thank you very much, butt and thanks for having me on the podcast. So ah basically, I was not a gamer and was not involved with tech at all. um we As a matter of fact, I tell people, you know, we were pretty much, um we didn't have a lot of tech in our house at all. I had a computer that I worked on because I was a journalist by trade, so I wrote articles and and books and things.
00:02:25
Speaker
But um that was pretty much it. We didn't have a TV a lot of the time, and I homeschooled my kids. I took care of my garden and raised my family. And as part of homeschooling, as my kids started graduating, my oldest son joined the Army, and he was being deployed Afghanistan in April 2017, wanted me to spend the day with him at Best Buy. And I was like, Best Buy? Like, that's a weird choice, you know, because I don't even like that stuff.
00:02:50
Speaker
And so um we went there, and he said, yeah, but I want you to try something and called virtual reality.
Health Transformation Through VR
00:02:56
Speaker
And I was like, what is that? And he said, just just come and try. He said, I really think you'll like this.
00:03:01
Speaker
And so it just still, every time I tell the story, it gives me chills. It just makes me almost cry because of the impact that that one choice, that one moment made on my life. And so i went in, I put the headset on and I was like,
00:03:15
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. I just, I think because I didn't have a background in tech, I hadn't watched a lot of TV, even people still, my friends in the industry, and they'll be like, haven't you ever watched that movie or heard of that song or whatever? And I was like, no, I mean, I just didn't do those things, you know.
00:03:30
Speaker
And I grew up in a very conservative area and very religious, so I just missed, like, something that everybody else apparently had. And so, yeah. So I think for me, when I had the headset on that first time, it was like an adult, but maybe with a more childlike perspective. And so I saw things a little differently and I was just like, oh my gosh, we could do so much with this. Like we could go to the moon or, you know, you could go inside and do health things with it and stuff. So it was just an interesting sort of experience. And so I bought it on the spot.
00:04:01
Speaker
Like I literally bought it, went home and asked my son to set it up because
Echo Arena Adventures
00:04:04
Speaker
he was being deployed. He left me his computer, a big, nice gaming computer. cool And um so I started playing. that um And it was a riff, right?
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, it was the riff. So it was all, of course, you know, chords everywhere and all this. PSVR 2 today. Yes, exactly. But what was different with with me setting it up is that I had been in a wheelchair the year before and for off and on for quite a bit before. I have a lot of problems with my legs and my health.
00:04:30
Speaker
And so I set it up in front of the computer with a chair to play seated. And um so I just started playing and then um ended up getting introduced to Echo Arena.
00:04:42
Speaker
And um my family said, hey, here's a game with robots you might like, because I'd been playing Robo Recall nonstop. And that was my first multiplayer game ever, like in my whole life. And I was 40, I guess I was like 47 at that time or something.
00:04:57
Speaker
46, somewhere around there. That was my first, that's how I got into VR and I just started playing. And then you became like, not just a player, you became very good at Echo Arena, right? Like as in yeah one of the initial OG esports in VR. I mean, that was so nascent, but ah correct me if I'm wrong, but you were up in the rankings in terms of, ah you know...
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah. All these sports players. Yeah. So basically, i mean, granted, it was a smaller pool at that time, but still I played nonstop and I worked for that title, you know, because i would play maybe no exaggeration. I would play somewhere between eight and 10 hours a day every day. That's just. And so.
00:05:38
Speaker
for any anywhere Well, i had still had, because of the health problems, and I was feeling like i couldn't do a lot still, and I was in the chair, and I had to just, I couldn't stand up more than about 10 minutes at a time at that point in time.
00:05:50
Speaker
And so I had a lot of issues health issues, and it was just a fantastic way to do something that I enjoyed. that didn't hurt. And so um that was the other thing I recognized very quickly and started talking about like on um Facebook and stuff. And i was saying, you know, it's amazing that the longer I play and the more I play, the longer I can go without pain medication or any sort of um assistance to
Facing Harassment in VR
00:06:15
Speaker
walk and stuff. Cause it just would, it would help my, it would help activate my nerves and help me have a little extra exercise, but yet it didn't,
00:06:23
Speaker
Because I was playing and having fun, it also released endorphins. I was going to say, yeah. Yeah, which meant that I had longer periods of time where I already was having something in my body that made me feel better. So I was actually able to, um over the next year and a half, gradually wean down where I came off all the medication That's an amazing story. Yeah, I totally think it was because of VR. And I lost about 40 pounds at that time. So you receded a ton and you lost weight. Yeah, I lost 40 pounds in six months just playing VR. That's so cool. It wasn't even supernatural. Yeah, I'm going to jump ahead and say since then, unfortunately, I've gained back all of that plus because I'm not playing VR as much. I still play every day. Okay. But I'm not playing as much. And I have a job now where I'm very sedentary. Right. So I just, you know, that's something where I'm trying to address because I've got to get my feet situated. I can't walk as exercise.
00:07:16
Speaker
yeah I have to do something like VR. Okay. So I just, I've already decided when I get back home after this, I've got to address that. But yeah, it's just interesting that people don't realize you can actually do that sort of thing just with something like, like playing VR.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. That's an incredible story to me. Um, And I know that when you got up there in the rankings, that it was dominated mostly by young males, right? The the early adopters of RIF were like the hardcore types. And I think here at GDC, um Meta's talked about, i think their VR elites was their term for these adults that are, you know, that are kind of the hardcore. with they They would lean now that these these teenagers are up and coming or whatever is like the new demographic they're focused on. yeah But at that time, was super hardcore, super male dominated.
00:08:01
Speaker
And I know you experienced harassment just for being in these matches. So I'm sure it's a little bit painful for you. But at the same time, you know, when you when you play competitively, i did this with some, you know, Uncharted games back in the day, like PS3, where I went crazy for it and put in.
00:08:18
Speaker
not Not probably 10 hours a day, but many hours a day. ah we won't ask you if you ever rage quit a match. We'll leave that aside. But you definitely feel the endorphins in that. And it's interesting that you believe it actually helped heal your physical body. But anyway, please please go into the, I guess, the story a little bit um about the harassment you endured in that ecosystem and still managed to, you know, come out one of the top Echo Arena players.
00:08:43
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, so basically, um ah back to your question minute ago about you know being one of the top players, just for context, you know though all the people that played Echo Arena, we had that first summer.
00:08:56
Speaker
um and Oculus had sponsored the VR League, which was which was run by yeah ESL, but they sponsored it with Intel. And so, excuse me, there were a bunch of us that were, I mean, like everybody that was playing Echo was trying to be part of this.
00:09:10
Speaker
And so um so I ended up qualifying as the only female, the only seated player and the oldest player to compete at Facebook um or Oculus Connect 4 in California that summer. yeah And so, yeah, it was definitely an elite group. And...
00:09:31
Speaker
um It was a great experience and that jumps ahead a little bit, but it it applies to your question that you just asked. So um basically being the only female player at that level, but there were other female players around the world, but not very many. There were very few of us and we all kind of knew each other.
00:09:47
Speaker
and um But for me, i would play so much and i' would hop in and especially in the U.S. I think it's even worse in some ways because we just have this toxicity here where we think it's okay to like harass women and you know, berate women. And so, but even worse, they would, they would basically act like didn't even have a right to play in the space.
00:10:07
Speaker
And so, um, they would get in my face and be like, you know, why are you effing here? You blankety blank, you know, they call me horrible names and all this. And Then they would, you know, like try to and um'm I'm not sure how how um accessible your podcast is for age limitations, but if you need to delete it in this, you can. But it was basically like, you know, they would stick objects up me. They would hunt my face. They would do all kinds of things.
00:10:33
Speaker
And then um when I complained about it, the problem was that... developers and headset manufacturers, everybody, all people were like, well, you're just new to this. This is a gaming world. This is the way things are. Everybody would make excuses and say, this is just how it is. Or they would be like, you you just need to learn how to um not feed the troll. I heard that so much, don't feed the troll. And I was like, oh my gosh, people. I was like, you're insane.
00:11:00
Speaker
i said, I literally can do absolutely nothing. I could be doing nothing. But because I'm a female, just because I'm existing in their space, I get harassed. yeah And so I started recording everything.
00:11:11
Speaker
And so I think I told you this story, but I recorded
Combating Toxicity in Gaming
00:11:14
Speaker
and I would show them on average men or males or boys, whatever males would be harassed, maybe 30 to 60 seconds. And then people would move on.
00:11:23
Speaker
like the other harassers or trolls would move on maximum 60 seconds. Cause they get tired of it. doesn't matter if they responded or didn't respond or whatever with a female. And like, I would show them if I went in there, if I spoke or if in any way they remotely figured out I was a female, you know,
00:11:38
Speaker
They would literally harass me until either I left the environment or they left. I would record sessions for 30 to 60 minutes. And what's even worse is that it it wouldn't only continue, but they would then invite all their friends. So like if another male joined the room, they'd be like,
00:11:55
Speaker
Hey, we got this B-I-T-C-H, you know, there's this woman over here and come over here and F her face. i mean, it was it was worse than people can possibly imagine that's to be in that situation. Because I'm sitting there for like 30 minutes, yeahm not saying a single word, not reacting, doing nothing. And people are like...
00:12:13
Speaker
Oh, they'll go away. There's a board if you leave one. I'm like, absolutely no, they won't. And then not only that, you've got other people coming for to join the gang, right? Right. You know, and it's just like, there're then, so then when I proved this, the next step was, well, then, you know, you could just go to a different place. And I'm like, so this is where the real the real moment of change, I think, came. Mm-hmm.
00:12:33
Speaker
And I used this illustration. I said, okay, here's the thing. Yes, I could leave, but that means I'm leaving literally every single environment hopping from one to another because it's in everywhere. And I said, but on the other hand, if let's say I go to the store and I go to aisle 10, I want to buy green beans.
00:12:49
Speaker
You can do that. I can do that. Anybody can do that. We all do that. You know, a kid can do that. And you're going to expect you can walk in, get your beans, and leave without being harassed. Let's hope so. If if someone comes up to you in aisle 10 and they start, you know, humping your face or sticking their hand up your skirt or whatever, they're going to be told to leave. Yes. They're going to be arrested. They're going to be seen as the offender who's doing a bad thing. yeah I said that's a common social area. Right. Like, common social areas in VR should be like aisle 10. Anybody's welcome there. If somebody's doing something they shouldn't,
00:13:19
Speaker
They should get in trouble, not you. correct And so when I started using that illustration, it's like a light clicked and they thought, hmm, maybe this is true. And I told them you know, think of expanding that where let's say I go down to the local strip club and we all want to get naked. That's perfectly fine and acceptable. I have nothing against all these things people doing, but do it within the appropriate environment where people want to do that, not in a common social area where you just make certain groups, certain ages, certain genders or whatever feel like Like, it's okay to harass them to the point that they have to leave. Right.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's like unfiltered trollism. First of all, I'm sorry that you had to experience that. um But about it's toxicity and, I guess, the trust and safety things. And and know, Greg, you were involved in Community Clubhouse for for many years. And so this is something you probably know well as well. Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
If you don't do something about it, you know the trolls kind of win and the toxic people win. Right, exactly. Nothing will change. And and that's a cost to the developer. It's not just an unpleasant experience for the actual Oh, for sure. It's kind of a dumb economic decision, I would argue, for most games. Well, we lost so many players, women in particular, during that period yeah that literally on social media or different or privately, those that they would never go back.
00:14:31
Speaker
Wow. They would never even try VR again because when you go to place and... That's the whole thing. It's promoted as you're in the game. It's very immersive. and Well, yeah, when it's very immersive and you're you're feeling like it's real... Well, you might have been beating them too, which might have maybe even made them madder.
00:14:45
Speaker
Well, in these cases, it was mostly like social environments. But oh, yeah, they hated it when I beat them in game. but But that was kind of funny, though, actually, because in game, if somebody started harassing me, I was such a good player that I know everybody.
The Impact of Gender-Based Harassment
00:14:58
Speaker
You let your play do your speaking for you. Yeah, I know like everybody here and that's going to hear that laugh. It's like, yeah, gives me great joy that yes, I absolutely could stop. Yes, you can. And so I mean, so that was kind of a little fun. You know, if somebody's going mess with you and do all that stuff, like at least if you have one thing, you can be like... yes you Have you thought about different... I guess, have you put research into how to... What do you do with these trolls? What do you do with these bad characters? I know, and I asked because I spoke to a researcher, Ruth Diaz, and she's working on how what do you do with trolls? Like, if you ban them, they're just going to create a new screen name and do the same thing again. Like, how do you look at solving a problem like that? And maybe it's just too large of a question to...
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big question. i i do think that one thing is ah peer pressure is effective. So if you create an environment where that's really just not cool, and that's not acceptable, first of all, that's the very best solution.
00:15:54
Speaker
You know, like if, and honestly, I mean, I know in a minute you're going to ask me a question about guerrilla tag and Lemming, who's the creator, you know, we played together in Echo and he's a super, super nice guy. Like, the I really liked the developers and the people involved with that game. um Like a lot of the top players, some of them were very nice, you know, people I consider friends today.
00:16:15
Speaker
But, for example, he was a leader and he's a he's a very good person, but he also is a leader in the sense of, you know, um people want to emulate him. And so I think that if he's in a game and somebody like that and you say, dude, like what is wrong with you or something? And um or if those people are the ones who are telling other people or setting a good example where they don't do that bad stuff. yeah That's honestly for for guys in particular. i think peer pressure in those situations is very effective. yeah
00:16:49
Speaker
And so as far as banning and all that, I think at some point there are some things where you have to maybe give people a timeout from a game or whatever. um Of course, now there are some things where you talked about creating alternate usernames and stuff, but we also now have, you know, developers have learned how to use um IP bans and stuff. So it's not just banning their name unless they're willing to go on and...
00:17:09
Speaker
Use um VPNs and everything. they're en Unless they want to a whole heck of a lot of work, then they're going to um find ways to keep them out temporarily. Take your punishment and come back with a better attitude.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think, and maybe I'm Pollyannish about it, but I know tools like TalksMod, which are new, but they can do a much better job than...
00:17:32
Speaker
the manual system, which is incredibly labor intensive. So I think part of the reason devs don't do it is first of all, they just want to sell as much as they can. And so by identifying trolls, they're actually potentially view it as a, as a loss because some of them may be big spenders, whatever yeah that's, that doesn't make it right.
00:17:47
Speaker
Um, but some of these tools, I think, um, I was at a ah session yesterday. um I forget what, what session it was, but they were, ah they did a study that looked at tools like ToxMod as a means of quickly identifying yeah certain words or certain you know tone of voice, whatever it is.
00:18:05
Speaker
And if they banned that 1% of players, although yeah you're saying it was much higher than that early on, well it was for me that that the whole level of toxicity goes down because you're identifying them. The problem is the cost-effectiveness of pre preceding solutions like back in the day with Echo Arena. Well, you know, i think I saw a press release from Speaking of Gorilla Tag. You know, they're working with somebody to do a similar thing like they have an automated system where it looks for certain keywords and things and bans people i mean like for example somebody's using the n-word and going around calling it by the n-word well i mean yeah just ban them just do something about it right away yeah and um so or call somebody a female harassment words you know there are things like that so i think those are effective but again back to i really think that just setting the standard that
00:18:50
Speaker
that you would behave on aisle 10. That's how you do in general social areas. That's how to actually achieve the the result because look how often you have to go to the grocery store and arrest someone for bad bad behavior.
00:19:01
Speaker
You know, I mean, so if you think about that, people think that's silly or, you know, exaggerating. No, it isn't. If you establish a standard that... you behave a certain way in certain places. And if we're going to continue to expand the virtual worlds, and these are worlds where people go in, then there are some things that should be acceptable in certain areas that should not be acceptable in social areas.
00:19:22
Speaker
And if we can get people to that point to understand that, then I think that's where you achieve that. that pure balance. And honestly, looking at it now, like it's so much better than it was, you know, almost 10 years ago now. um So I definitely think that all these things that we've been through and the things that have happened have helped to people to learn. There are some changes that have happened that have made positive impact on what people's experiences now compared to what it was say, you know, eight years ago.
00:19:51
Speaker
Right. Um, I believe at one point you were even doxed, so it wasn't just that they were harassing you in the game. Some some trolls took the time to actually ID you dox you in real life, which seems, again, amazing to me.
00:20:08
Speaker
And I guess as a quick coda that, you know, Meta talks about the ah these VR elites, which were kind of almost legacy, hardcore, you know, user base who cared a lot about frame rates were very tech heads, very male-dominated, things like that.
00:20:22
Speaker
um that they ah i think that there's a problem with um how that user base generally has responded to female players and they're kind of like get going to oppose what you do no matter what you do for what you are.
00:20:39
Speaker
um So yeah, it it would be interesting to hear that doxing story if you're comfortable telling it because it kind of highlights the trouble that you experienced. Sure, absolutely. And I kind of chuckled when you said that because you you said the doxing story.
00:20:54
Speaker
You do realize this has happened way more than once. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and so it's one of those things where if you look back at like – Well, first of all, let me start and say that I don't think in this case it was necessarily just because I was a woman or a female. I think that the issue was that I was a female with I was good at the game.
00:21:17
Speaker
I had, you know, I don't know, for lack of a better word, power. You know, I had influence. I guess that's a better word. And so, like, people knew who I was. And there are some people, like, there are a lot of guys, honest to goodness, they just can't stand that. Like, they cannot handle seeing any woman with any sort of influence or power. And you have to remember, I'm going to back up here just one second. And remember the story I told you at the beginning of this, how I got in this industry.
00:21:43
Speaker
How I got here, what I was doing, what my circumstances were. I literally was a stay-at-home mom taking care of my kids, taking care of my garden, in a wheelchair half the time. And here I am. I just want to play this game.
00:21:55
Speaker
I just want to play a game and have fun. And, like, I happened to be good at it. I happened to have a lot of time. And I wanted to help the community grow. So as I say that and emphasize it because it's like if you can take the very lowest of a person who is is out to... I did not want a job in the industry. I wasn't trying to get any money from anyone.
00:22:18
Speaker
Like I literally was just doing my thing and being happy. And they could not stand it. They literally couldn't stand it. So it was more than once, but there was like um many times they would...
00:22:28
Speaker
share my address. It was the first time we started locking our doors at home. They share my address, um tell people to come and kill me, posting on Reddit and Discord and Facebook. They would look at my, you know, I started for the first time ever really thinking, wow, man, I have a big social media presence like on Facebook and stuff. it wasn't my intention, but it just happened out.
00:22:51
Speaker
And so it was one of those weird things where I'm like, oh, my gosh. like Because I was an author. what a my age group, when you're an author, that's what you did. you know you You share your information and you promote where you're from and all this. And so all of a sudden, i'm I'm in this totally different environment where it's like everybody knows this, but now they're sharing it in such a way as, oh, here's her address. Go kill her. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, what is happening to my world? I'm like, what?
00:23:15
Speaker
I was very... confused you know like i didn't understand what was going on some of the time kind of and so then um it got to the point where if i was going to go to an event they would start posting and say she's going to be at this event you know and um it was just really weird i'm so sorry yeah that's that's basically what happened but i will tell you you know, lit, I, and that was all from like 2017 to 2020.
00:23:42
Speaker
And, um, then in 2020, I moved back to Chattanooga because separated from my ex-husband, moved back to Chattanooga. And, um, so 2020, you know, the pandemic hit and I literally had people, somebody reached out to me said, you know, that they're posting your new address on wherever it was. And so somebody sent me a screenshot It literally had a photo of my new home, this trailer that I lived in with no indoor bathrooms, no floors, because I built all this myself. I had no place to live. So my friend sold me a tradeor the trailer that had no indoor bathrooms. I went to the bathroom in the woods for like six months, once some built my trailer.
00:24:22
Speaker
And, um you know, because I had no because I had not worked. I had no savings, no income. know nothing. And so I was just doing the best I could. But I literally have these trolls out there posting saying, oh, here's where this person is now. Go hurt her.
00:24:39
Speaker
And um I was just like, what the crap, man? Like, what is wrong with these people? So it's very strange. But that's even in my new place. And then, then like, one of the guys who had harassed me worse throughout all this, this was multiple guys, but one guy who had harassed me worse literally sent me a message in, like, I don't know, May or June or July, something of that year.
00:24:59
Speaker
and And, again, i never responded to any of this. All these messages, I never, ever responded. Probably wouldn't have mattered either way, though. It wouldn't have, but it's like I just ignored him. But he would start sending me a message and saying, and oh, I'm so glad to hear that COVID's doing really, you know, hitting people hard in Tennessee. Are you dead yet? Oh, my God.
00:25:15
Speaker
So it is stupid. Yeah. And it is stupid. It it amazes me. Like people who haven't experienced, they have no idea how bad it is for those of us who are attacked that way. right And again, I'm just like, what is happening here? It wasn't like I was doing anything to bring it on. on you and And that shouldn't be excuse anyway. Definitely the victim.
00:25:34
Speaker
yeah Yeah, but it shouldn't be an excuse anyway. I'm just saying people who like to create and an excuse, they like to say, well, you did this or whatever. It's like, first of all, that that's never the case. like You can go out and say somebody got murdered or it's their own fault.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's the same people that say that sort of thing. Sure. Yeah, so that's the answer to that
Industry Improvements and Insights from GDC
00:25:51
Speaker
question. so But they I think you also think it has gotten better. And maybe it's a combination of technology and um i don't know if the culture's really changed. or Maybe that's overstating the, or maybe the the the XR community at least has broadened out. And so maybe some of those early trolls have either...
00:26:08
Speaker
bitten their tongue or been forced by peer pressure to or maybe even banned whatever it is I don't know what has it gotten better from your perspective I don't do a ton of social XR so I think that sexism is definitely still there yeah but um since you've experienced it much more deeply for a longer period of time I'd be curious if you think it has gotten better since Gamergate and everything else Yeah, it's funny you say that. I think um i think a couple of things. One is ah think the tools and the games, the devs and socials gotten better at mitigating some of it, which is good. I do think the the um general attitude that social VR ah should be safe and you should be able to go in and like play and have fun if you want to be there. that's a better The attitude has improved, which is good, because of a lot of that work from you know the past where anybody should be able to do this and not be like totally harassed.
00:26:56
Speaker
So all that has improved. um I do think, too, though, it's kind of funny that trolls have also gotten a little bit wiser and smarter. And so, like I say, you know, even in recent years, I still experience some of that. But it's funny. I think that... um you know to some degree the pandemic maybe it's helped a little too and the fact that everybody around you're like we've had a sick world people are dying got you know all kinds of catastrophes everywhere so i'm hoping that maybe people are just realizing is this really how i want to spend my time yeah like this is such a waste you know and so i think that i think i have to say yeah i think it has gotten better for a lot of different reasons but
00:27:36
Speaker
I definitely think there are still issues. yeah And i we won't go into the other story I shared with you, but I definitely think there's still issues where there's a lot of, um of ah you know, just prejudice out there toward, but especially especially women um let's go a little more positive. Sure. Absolutely. I like that.
00:27:53
Speaker
So the Gorilla Tag, I know you have been close to the founder. At least he was an Echo Arena ahna player. You said he was a good guy. and yeah And he went on to build this amazing amazingly successful, probably the most successful, I guess, the the online rumors, if they're to be believed, is over $100 million dollars generated, which has to be like the number one XR game of all time. um yeah But can you give me a little insight on why you think Gorilla Tag...
00:28:19
Speaker
um has turned out to be such a monster hit. Lemming was a super nice guy. He started building that game. I think that he initially just kind of, I mean, I don't know, obviously I'm not involved with their development team and stuff, but I think he initially wanted to play around with some mechanics to see what he could do. And so, you know, the mechanics in that game, and so you're moving with your arms.
00:28:39
Speaker
um And so i think the reason it became popular, part of it is because the way he built his community. And so community is big for me. You know, a lot of the work I do, I do... I'm head of programming at AWE, but also I help with a lot of VR communities.
00:28:53
Speaker
And so I was basically like the ah unofficial community manager for Echo. And I also, um when Population 1, before they launched, when we had the early access, I was community manager for Pop 1. Oh, I didn't know that And then after they launched, for probably a year and a half, two years maybe,
00:29:08
Speaker
And um so I've worked with a lot of the games in VR. But um the yeah I think I like the way he had his Discord, and he had a few players in there that would give him feedback. And um it was really just a good way to build up from the beginning interaction between a developer and the community. And then later, of course, a lot of the Ready at Dawn developers went and came onto his team. and um So, yeah, I just think the way they did it, the whole process was ah was good.
00:29:36
Speaker
As far as the gameplay itself, I think the other reason it's so popular is because you just go play the game. People make their own make their own rules. And so I really am not a fan of a lot of rules and a lot of people telling me what to do. And so I think that most humans, honestly, are kind of like that. If you go to basketball court, you kind of know how to play basketball.
00:29:55
Speaker
But if you want to take the basketball and bounce it against the wall, you can. Or if you want to play horse, you can. if you want to play... 5v5 or 3v3, you know, yeah you get to pick your own rules. And so that's really what Gorilla Tech is. Kind of liberating in that sense. Yeah. It gives them more autonomy, the individual more autonomy. Yeah, they created the mechanics and they created the environment. right But people go in there and create their own games. And so I tell people now, like, you can create a game and have certain ways you should play it.
00:30:20
Speaker
But honestly, the more successful models are just... game like yeah how are you going to game what is your choice on how to game you know you like you don't necessarily yourself self-expression yeah you don't necessarily need to tell somebody how to do it like if you give somebody an arrow just an arrow well you're probably going to try to figure out a way to either shoot it or throw it or stab it like a dagger like if you give anyone anything and you're wanting to game whether it's weaponized or you know, a ball where you're throwing it in something. Most humans naturally have this ability to look at it and just play with that thing. Because we do that from childhood. Literally, that's the earliest thing we do in life is play.
00:31:02
Speaker
yeah And so I think that's what you learn when you play. That's what Lemmy did correctly. I think that's what he captured was just the ability to let people play in VR. It's really cool. Cool. Really really simple, but also very complex to get it to do a well.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, last two questions. Sure. I guess the first is thoughts on GDC. So I don't know if you've seen highlights or some news or something that that's popped here at the show, but I would love to hear from an XR or broader perspective something that that you've been impressed by.
Embracing Technology from a Conservative Background
00:31:27
Speaker
Sure. So I've been to a couple of couplebble panels that were good, and then I walked around the show floor yesterday. walked around and saw you know some of the VR things. I didn't get to all of them.
00:31:37
Speaker
I... i really enjoy seeing new things that are in development and so um i went by a booth VRAL which is a like VR sports, esports that was fun they had some some cute things there i liked and um and interesting there was the These teenagers, 17 and 19, who had created a dodgeball with flames. You throw it at the little people out there and hit them. and I got the high score. I was very pleased.
00:32:07
Speaker
so Yes, I'm a little tiny, but competitive maybe. Yeah. But I sat there and did it two or three times until I got the high score. That's very cool. So know that. Yeah, that was fun. But the thing is, I pointed that one out specifically, too, because it's made by two teenagers.
00:32:21
Speaker
A Quest title or what was it? Yeah, it's a Quest title. I played it on Quest. And so that's the thing you have to remember. Like right now, for the first time, you know, we've been around now with consumer VR for almost 10 years. It's been nine years.
00:32:32
Speaker
And you have... now a whole new that's nine years so the people i played with literally are now game devs for rhyme drift which is the gorilla tag creators and other axiom their new game okay a lot of those developers were players that we played with as 13 year olds right right you know in echo and so they hopefully not the bad no not the bad ones not the bad ones and so then you also have a lot of the newer um ah newer game devs who like I see them all the time and they'll make, oh it's so, I just love it, it's so sweet. Like I had one message me yesterday and he, you know, he was one of the players, a young teenage player and now he's a community manager for VR game.
00:33:14
Speaker
So I love seeing that cycle. But these guys I saw back here, they're 17, 19. So they're in that same early stage where they've seen things and they're starting to think, um What can I do with this? yeah How can I do it I think it's good for people to be creative and continue to, like I told you when I first came in, I had no clue what I was doing. So lot of my ideas, like when I first started playing, I met his like, you need a chair. And I was like, yeah, need a chair. And they're like, why do need a chair? And was because I play in a chair. everybody was like,
00:33:43
Speaker
Nobody plays beyond a chair. You were seated, yeah. Yeah, and I was like, well, I mean, nobody told me that. and It's like if you come in from a perspective of not knowing something, sometimes that's a benefit because you see things differently. You for sure. So anyway, I wanted to say that. like That's a cool thing. But then the other thing I thought that I really liked was um the meta desktop editor.
00:34:07
Speaker
They actually put me in that for a little while and let me play around with it. For Horizon Worlds or something else? Yes. ok And so it was released about two months ago, but I hadn't seen it. And, um you know, honestly, it's probably like usually I try to avoid mentioning the big people stuff necessarily just because it seems like they need a lot of attention. But, man, I tell you, it was really cool. Like, it was really pretty cool.
00:34:29
Speaker
So I was thinking that um when I get home, I may try to install that. Ooh, try to yeah make your own thing, huh? Well, I did something with Unity last summer. I spent the whole summer playing around with that. I think this would be a lot easier. Well, I think they said it ah at a session I was at yesterday that they definitely put in effort to make it more... I don't think they mentioned Unity, but they wanted it much more like a an engine that game devs would know and understand, which implies to me they kind of went through what they had and they wanted to see what Unity was like and they took a big step closer to it. so Yeah, it was really good. The only thing I asked was I think they need to have like at the beginning, i didn't see the very beginning where you have a blank slate.
00:35:09
Speaker
But if you have just a blank slate, I'm not a fan of tutorials because you guys can probably tell already I don't sit still long enough to go through a tutorial. and so But I do think it's good to have like maybe tips.
00:35:21
Speaker
yeah Like if you're at a blank slate and you want to maybe it's a tip or a window that you can open or close or you can throw it away. That's not a tutorial, but that's still helping you get to the next step. That's like an AI assistant to me. Like that that will turn into prompting you. Like one of the things that yeah yeah that the AI folks were saying is that you flip it around instead of us putting in a phrase and it generating an image or, um you know, LLM or something else related to that back to us.
00:35:49
Speaker
the AI assistant will actually ask you what kind of environment you want to make. And then you will you will give your answer to it and you can define it however you want.
00:35:59
Speaker
And then it will go build it for you. So anyway, it sounds And I think all that's good. The only hesitation I have or the only kind of thing that I have a little bit of concern is um i think humans are so creative and we have so much potential for greatness.
00:36:16
Speaker
And so i do like all this, and I think it's good in a lot of ways. But I also think, generally speaking, across the industry, that we have to be careful to make sure that we don't ever lose sight of the people who are creating genuinely authentic new art right or stories or whatever. So I'm not necessarily the biggest fan of ai As a tool, yes, but the content creation part, I don't know. I think I really kind of don't maybe like that.
00:36:44
Speaker
and um From a technology perspective, and I'm just curious about you, Sonya. You went to Best Buy randomly one day and picked up a VR headset not thinking that, and here you are now talking about AI and technology and it's all this new to you. and'm like How did you approach that? How did you change that mindset from no technology to technology?
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's a funny question. And I think basically the there's a lot of change that took place. And, you know, you have to remember, I'm from, ah I don't even think we said that specifically, but I'm from a very conservative religious area in southern Tennessee. I'm at the base of the Appalachian Mountains.
00:37:27
Speaker
And so technology is bad. Like literally, when I moved back, I said moved back to Chattanooga from where i had the other place I lived in northern Tennessee. And, um I literally had people come to my door, to my physical door, and tell me, yeah, I knew you in school, and it's great to have you back here. i just wanted to tell you know, it's really nice to have you back in the community, but it's too bad you're working in tech because, you know, we know that that's satanic.
00:37:52
Speaker
I'm not even exaggerating, not even kidding remotely. And I'm just like, wow, that's exactly Yeah, yeah they I would get i would get you know messages from people detailing how...
00:38:04
Speaker
you know, tech is evil and um certain leaders are the the coming of the apocalypse and all this. Their mindset is very deeply rooted in superstition and religion. so...
00:38:19
Speaker
and so So, Greg, to answer that question, I think it's important to recognize that background because I had to, um you know, obviously i already had predisposed beliefs where I questioned everything. I'm a very curious like ah person who who asks a lot of questions.
00:38:35
Speaker
And so for me, when I started playing VR and I would talk to people in game and we would discuss different topics and stuff, and I'd be like, well, what about this or what about this or what about this? And so um i think I just started really questioning life in general and a lot of things. And was just like, well, this doesn't make any sense. So I had to seriously go through a lot of mental change where I got from this point to the other point where I...
00:38:59
Speaker
and It was just a total transformation. It wasn't just with tech. And so then, um but with that specifically, i guess I really started realizing like, if as humans, we are we are here on this world, we're just part of the whole overall, you know, evolution of the world and and creations that are here, you know, animals, whatever.
00:39:25
Speaker
And we have intelligence, like we are intelligent beings. Now we can create things like, oh, this is really cool, but what are we going to do with that?
00:39:35
Speaker
And so I started really thinking, like, if we have that ability and what are we going to do with that? Are we going to use it for good or bad? So I guess I just started thinking for myself personally, if people are already going to do this, um i want to be part of a movement that in encourages people to use it for good.
00:39:55
Speaker
and so we can use this to help other people. we can, you know, how can we try to be more sustainable? How can we help people physically overcome ailments or... things like that like psychologically you know vr can be used to help people overcome ptsd and stuff so i just really started thinking a lot of those things so that's where i got from that other perspective to really evaluating it was just a whole lot of exploration and asking questions and being willing to change which is important too because i think a lot of people aren't willing to see another perspective and i very much was open to that
00:40:26
Speaker
Does that answer your question? Yeah, very much so. My other question, which is not like that, is ah does your son come to you for VR information? So my oldest son, um he's awesome. we go back He stayed safe, correct?
00:40:41
Speaker
Was he deployed? Did he stay safe over there? Yeah, he stayed safe. He was over there. It was really... You know, we don't talk about it a whole lot. I think that people don't realize how those situations affect other people. And it's kind of sad. Like, as I saw him and my other son who had been overseas. I saw them, you know, change somewhat and um a little bit. To grow up, of course, mature. But there were also some things. Like, my oldest son did tell me one day that he he was... um driving along. He drove the tanks and he was driving along. He actually did like radios and stuff too, but um he said there was an explosion. Somebody had dropped a bomb like right in front of them on the road and like 300 people were killed. And um he said it was literally like right in front of them. And
00:41:23
Speaker
And it was never even on the news here. Like, literally it wasn't even on the news. And I think it still gives me chills. It's one of those things where it's like, we as a country, we are so self-centered and so self-focused. It just, I don't know. stuff like that where it's kind of weird. But but as far as, yes, he's safe, he's back. He actually went to nuclear engineering. And then he switched over to mechanical engineering. He graduates in a few months. Good for him.
Career Transition to AWE Programming
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, he's great. Yeah. Okay, I lied. I got two quick questions then. So how did you go from being kind of an esports guru and kind of understanding running communities and all the other kind of consulting stuff you had done to basically being in charge of programming at AWE? Because that seems like an amazing further transformation from what you had already done. Yeah. So, okay. So I love that question. Thank you for asking.
00:42:10
Speaker
um Basically, a lot of people don't realize, and this is back to that thing a minute ago where I said, you're here, was just trying to do something I enjoyed. Yeah. A lot of people early on didn't even believe me. They didn't believe that. They thought I was ah as a matter of fact, people would call me a Facebook plant. And i was like, I don't even know what that means. I literally don't know what you're talking about.
00:42:27
Speaker
And so it was really funny because ah early on I had to learn everything. they would be in in discord or online and people are in the game and people would say things like um afk was like what is that right i had to go look that up one day after i'd seen it a few times i was like everything didn't matter what it was i guarantee you i didn't know what it meant and what's even worse is again remember the whole movie um music thing i didn't know anything about music or movies well then add on top of that the fact that i was married to man who literally was not intimate with me for 29 years almost
00:43:00
Speaker
You know, we had our five kids. It was done. And then we did our Christian religious duty. And then that was it. like Wow. and so I knew nothing about like um sexual things or stuff. Well, when games, I mean, people talk a lot about different types of topics and things would come up and be like, well what's that? What's that mean? What's that word? And they would be like, oh, my gosh, Hasco, you know, what nothing. Like, have you been living in a cave your whole life? And I'm like, no, not in a cave. Yeah.
00:43:28
Speaker
but In a trailer, part it. Yeah, well, was in a house at that time, but i'm like I was just doing my thing. And so it was just really, really funny because I knew none of that. And so I had to learn all that. While I was learning all that, I was working with a lot of communities and really just encouraging like any of the developers you know to do good things and And I said all that because my point was it was all volunteer. And so I did everything I did was volunteer. And I was just like offering my time to developers who wanted insight on is my game accessible? If I'm a seated player and I try to play and and I'm trying to reach up and I can't grab something because there's a lever on the ceiling. Well, you don't have a way to pull it to me. I have to stand up. Well, that's not accessible because what if I can't? What if I'm in a wheelchair and can't stand up?
00:44:11
Speaker
And so I'll give them feedback. And then inclusive environment stuff. So I did all that for about um for about six years. And just promoting people on social media and stuff. And so I was telling Greg, you know, like um at the beginning, we I think certain people's personalities, you enjoy promoting other people.
00:44:29
Speaker
And so, you know, you do a podcast or you're writer or whatever. Like I enjoy that too. Well, if you enjoy it, you're kind of the kind of a love comes through and you're invested in it. yes Yeah, it's very authentic. And so I did that. Well, then after I went through the divorce and separation 2020, and I was at this place trying to build my home and get a bathroom and get a kitchen and all this stuff inside. and it's amazing. And so um I had a few little side jobs I would do sometimes, but um nothing really that made any substantial income.
00:44:58
Speaker
So February 2022, my boss now, who's Ori Inbar, he's the founder of AWE, he reached out to me and said, um hey, do you want to chat? No, I had been a speaker too. I'm a public speaker, so I had talked about VR quite a bit at AWE, and he said, do you to chat? I'm like, sure. i mean I didn't know what he wanted. i didn't ask. It just didn't cross my mind. i mean, if somebody tells me they want to talk, I just talk to them.
00:45:21
Speaker
But it turned out it was ah apparently like a job interview. And, of course, you know, when you're my same old, I think my hair was dry. But we'll see. It's driving me crazy today. Everybody can get through this whole interview and be like, yeah, was wondering how her hair looked that way. So we get to the chat, and basically he was asking me all these questions about what I did and stuff, and I was just answering He was like, well, I was wondering if you might like a job, and do you want a job? And was like, I mean, I guess I need a job, actually.
00:45:51
Speaker
And he said um he offered me the job as Headed Program for AWE. Wow. now I said, um i really need a job, but I would be interested only if I could um still do community work because it's very important to me still do community work. And i do consulting sometimes with to develop game devs. making it So, like, I'm making a game right now with Asics and also another game that is being announced this week.
00:46:19
Speaker
but still under wraps is that right is there or is that did you have you don't know if it's been announced it'll be on my linkedin later later this week i think i think it's actually maybe monday we're announcing publicly but it's just a quiet soft yeah today so but it's to be really so cool excited I'll tell guys afterward. We're going to see it at We will see this at AWE. I'll tell you after get off the recording. Okay. And so, but anyway, I do things like that. But that was my requirements or my ask was I said, I still want to other work. And also, if I didn't like it, I would just let him know. I would just give him notice and leave. Okay.
00:46:56
Speaker
You know, life is short. and I've had so many health problems. And we all like joy is very important to me, which is why everything's gamified for me. Like, i love having fun. And so if I'm not going to like my job, i'm not going to do it. Like, I'll just leave. But that's better for you and for me if I do that. He said yes. And so that's how I got my job. That's so awesome. didn't even apply. and And I absolutely love it. And I think I'm very good at it.
AWE Future Events and Initiatives
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah. That's awesome. So it's great.
00:47:20
Speaker
It's kind of like a happy ending story, but but I must end with the question about AWE, right? So that's coming up. um I don't know how much you feel comfortable previewing, but we'd love to get a little teaser on what we can expect in June in Long Beach.
00:47:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'm so excited. So I have, um I will say publicly, we have the gaming hub this year. We have all the regular stuff, which is great. We have like our enterprise program and all our regular content, which is awesome.
00:47:45
Speaker
But AWE is the world's largest XR platform. We have around 6,000, 6,500 attendees to this event. And i have anywhere, just depending on the year, between 400 and 600 speakers. so And um so the program is awesome. And it's got you know all the different verticals, enterprise health care, XR enablement, um gaming, entertainment, all kinds of stuff.
00:48:07
Speaker
And so this year we have all of that, but we also have the gaming hub, which I'm so excited about. And so it's relevant for being here at GDC because it's, um, basically we saw things like this that we love and we wanted to just bring a bigger taste of that to AWE. So the gaming hub itself will be comprised of the,
00:48:26
Speaker
games pavilion which is um newer game vr game devs who have things to show or for people to try they have to have an active game um to share at the the pavilion like they can't have a booth unless they have a game to share and then beside that is a stage and then we also have some speed networking where they can connect with people wanting jobs or they connect with investors or sponsors and it's also so exciting and i also i don't know when this is going live this podcast but um I have a very, very special speaker that will be coming this year that will be announced in about a week.
00:49:00
Speaker
All right. We've got two teasers. This will be two weeks out. Okay. So it'll be done by then. So you can take all that off. But, yeah, it'll be announced already by then. So, yeah, all that part's going to be irrelevant then. Except for up to that last little part. We'll post the speaker when we know who it is because it will be the right time. Cool. Cool.
00:49:20
Speaker
Well, Sonja Hoskins, very kind of you to join us. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Well, thank you very much for having me on. i appreciated the questions and the conversation. Yeah, I appreciate it. Sonia, thank you so much. i love the story. I think it's great stuff. I think you're doing it for love. And I think that's the most important reason to do these things. You feel passionate it. And I think it's amazing. So thank you so much for sharing your story. Louis, thank you for helping set this up. Yeah, thank you. very intelligent questions are much better than what I think. I wouldn't say that, but thank you. Thanks, guys.
00:49:47
Speaker
You had good questions. It really good. Yeah, thanks, guys. Real quick, do you want let us know where we can find all your information? um Sure, yeah. I mean, usually, i think we forgot to say my gamer tags, Hasco 7. And so um usually people can look on Hasco 7 and see different stuff, but I'm on everything, Twitter, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. What about AWE? Where can we learn more? So for AWE, I would go to the AWE website, which is AWEXR.com.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah. Thanks a lot.