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Students of Conflict - Season 2 - #7 - Special Episode: Kill Kill Kill! with Andre and Bryan
332 Plays2 months ago
In this very special episode of Students of Conflict we depart from our usual “Better Malifaux... one game at a time” approach and talk to Andre and Bryan about killing in Malifaux. Buckle up for a wide-ranging discussion about killing our opponent's models, preventing our opponent from killing OUR models, and killing our opponent's spirit.
Hosts: Clay and Doug
Guests: Andre, Bryan, and Ryan
Students of Conflict Discord invite: https://discord.gg/hfHdqxRcZt
Foods Discussed:
-Ashley’s Banana pudding
-Bryan Consumes Satan
-Black licorice ice cream
(Students of Conflict recipes can be found in the #s2-recipes-archive channel of our discord server)
Plugs from Guest:
https://www.youtube.com/@SubParNinja
https://www.instagram.com/subparninja_hobbies/
Also Mentioned in the Podcast:
Lonestar Fauxdown 2025: 24-26 Oct … Please mark your calendars now!
Thank-Yous:
Big thanks to Top Doug Design for all the terrain we play on here in Texas and for sponsoring this podcast, to Wyrd Miniatures for allowing us to use their artwork from the 2nd Edition Student of Conflict, and to Dragon’s Lair Comics & Fantasy North Houston, the home of Texas Malifaux.
Top Doug Design: https://www.topdougdesign.com/
Wyrd Miniatures: https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux
Dragon’s Lair Comics & Fantasy - Houston North: https://www.dlair.net/houston-north/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Tournament Highlights
00:00:10
Speaker
Straight out of the heart of Texas, here come the students of conflict, helping you become a better Malifaux player and reach the top of the podium, one game at a time.
00:00:33
Speaker
Welcome to Students of Conflict. We're Clay and Doug. Hello. And hello. And we are working to become better Malifaux players, leveling our ourselves and hopefully leveling up others as well. Tonight we have the entire podium from the November tournament in Houston, Andre, Ryan and Brian. Hello. Hey folks. Yo.
Aggression in Malifaux: Strategies and Psychological Warfare
00:00:53
Speaker
We generally take an in-depth look at one game from each of our guests, but we're going to shake it up a bit this evening. With Andre and Brian, we wanted to take advantage of this time to dive into the concept of aggression in Malifaux. Texas Malifaux has a long, proud, aggressive history. ah And we are looking forward to talking about killing our opponent's models, preventing our opponent from killing our models, and killing our opponent's spirit. We're going to be releasing this discussion as season two, episode seven.
00:01:18
Speaker
All right, guys, thank you so much for being here this evening and for talking to us about aggression, about killing in Malifaux. Super appreciate this and looking forward to it. Murder. Murder. It's a topic I'm intimately familiar with.
00:01:31
Speaker
So I want to start out, as always, with our icebreaker question for this
Non-traditional Thanksgiving Dishes Discussion
00:01:35
Speaker
episode. And we are recording this just a couple days before Thanksgiving. ah Some of our international listeners may not care at all, but ah for us here in the US, it's a big deal. And we're excited to to get together with friends and family and do some Thanksgiving meal stuff. But we are wondering, what is your favorite non-traditional Thanksgiving dish?
00:01:57
Speaker
I'll be honest with you. I'm not sure that my family knows what a non-traditional dish is. Okay. Um, I think, well, our favorite thing to see at Thanksgiving is banana pudding, but I feel like that's my Ugg boots on pumpkin spice latte basics. So I'm not sure. I've never seen banana pie at Thanksgiving. Banana pudding.
00:02:19
Speaker
Our banana pudding pie. Like what, the vanilla wafers and the stuff? Yes, yes. Oh, yeah. There you go. i am i am We can count that as non-traditional because I am certain the pilgrims did not have that. so Fair enough, fair enough. I will say this, it being the Midwesterner here, banana pudding, that's not something that we would have had we have up north.
00:02:42
Speaker
so Got it. Okay. Well, then I am more than happy to to wax poetic about my wife's banana pudding. um it It's an experience. like you you You feel closer to God at the end of that plate of banana pudding. So I guess i have to I have to pick that one. It's what I'm looking forward to the most, eating
Thanksgiving Traditions and Desserts
00:03:04
Speaker
at Thanksgiving. like yeah Or we're gonna get through the you know the turkey and the gravy and the stuffing. It's gotta be stove top, because we're keeping it real. But like at the end of that hustle, it's gotta be the banana pudding. So that's the the first thing that comes to mind. That's awesome. So how about you, Brian?
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah. So obviously I've got the vegan take because my in-laws are vegan. So we don't really do Turkey and the stuffing and all that stuff. Right. um It is nothing but cranberry. for right Yeah. It's nothing but sides for us, but which is fine because the sides are super tasty. Right. Um, but the main dish that we use in place of Turkey is this, uh,
00:03:44
Speaker
It's called Satan, S-E-I-T-A-N. It's like a gluten ah protein that you take and you tear into pieces and you fry it ah in batter like chicken. So it tastes like fried, like fried chicken. um So we do that with mashed potatoes and corn and rolls, plus the Thanksgiving sides. um And it's it's really good. Like I know it sounds crazy, but it's, it tastes like fricking fried chicken. Oh, that is cool. Brian eats steak and for dinner.
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah. What? I was just saying Brian eats Satan for Thanksgiving. That's pretty non-traditional. Kill, kill, kill. for here But I have no idea how to make it. I don't know anything about it. I just know I go there and it starts off. It looks like a loaf of bread and they tear it into shreds, ah batter it and then fry it. And it's oh my God, it's so good. That is cool. Got to give some of that a try.
00:04:44
Speaker
I have heard Satan referred to as wheat meat before because it's wheat based, right? Yeah, it's it's literally you bake it as like a loaf of bread that is meat. It's very odd. OK, but yes, very, very odd. But it's pretty. But fry it up and dang near anything. Pride is going to be OK. Exactly. And so that is awesome. No, we'll definitely have to
Malifaux Strategies: Killing and Neutralizing Opponent's Models
00:05:09
Speaker
give that a try. How about you, Doug? What do you what do you get? We got to we gotta got to talk.
00:05:12
Speaker
milk this sir better Malifaux one snack at a time thing. So I would say that most of the dishes that I make for Thanksgiving are pretty, you know, traditional. I just baked a really, really tasty pecan pie um that I already shared the recipe in advance. I put up a picture and shared a recipe in advance in the um or the Discord recipe channel. Say the word of that nut one more time, would you? Pecan. There you go. Yeah, that is the objective. My wife takes fun of me for the way I say Pecan, because apparently, because there's the Pecan or Pecan, I call it Pecan, which is not one of the two ways that was- No, that is the correct way. There is only one correct way, and you were saying it right. There's three, well, apparently,
00:06:12
Speaker
I say it in the the third weird way that it's like a very small pocket in the Midwest. Yeah, which is the correct pocket. Yeah, that is definitely the aberration in Texas for sure. Andre, please say that nut. It is pecan.
00:06:31
Speaker
Brian, please say that nut. Pecan. Clay? Is it pecan? Pecan. Yeah. There you go. Absolutely. okay See, i you say pecan there, but apparently Clay and I are in the minority, but that's a fairly traditional dish.
00:06:50
Speaker
But a few days ago, I made black licorice ice cream that I'm definitely looking forward to eating more of during the Thanksgiving weekend. Sweet. Because I love black licorice. It did look pretty cool. It's delicious. And I will share that recipe, too, because you know what? Black licorice is one of the best flavors.
00:07:15
Speaker
There you go. Awesome. And everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Yep, is wrong. OK, so I do want to shift off of the food thing and into killing. and so But I want to take ah just a couple of minutes to kind of explain to our listeners some of the background on this episode and then the framework that we're going to be using to discuss this. ah We want to do a special episode. And diving deep into a particular topic, we knew we wanted to do that because we had Andre and Brian on. and theyve We're playing masters that they already had and we're like, yeah, what do we want to do with this? And so we were doing a little bit of brainstorming and. And for, I was coming at it from the standpoint of many of you as listeners may not have had a chance to play against these guys.
00:08:00
Speaker
but they are very, very, very good in my opinion, like controlling the board state in the pace of the game and just putting a ton, ton, ton of pressure on you. And they have different, but it kind of overlaps the methods. Andre is really, really good at killing key pieces that you need to score with or to ah to have any hope at winning the game and just killing them dead. And Brian is really, really good in my opinion at putting people in putting me in bad decisions, like just bad situations where you don't have any options or you have a bunch of options, but they're all horrible. And there's just no good choices. And so you're going to lose. And so um so anyway, so they're brainstorming kind of with each other about about this. And finally, we're all kind of like, let's talk about killing.
00:08:50
Speaker
And so it's killing or neutralizing. You don't necessarily have to kill them. You can bury them or just whatever. You can neutralize opponent's models. You can disrupt at the same time that in Malifaux that we're trying to kill opponent's models, they're trying to kill ours. And so what can you do to kill their models? What can you do to disrupt your opponent's efforts to kill or neutralize our models?
Countering Strategies: Aggression and Defense
00:09:14
Speaker
And then um and And I kind of look at at Andre as one of the specialists and certainly in our meta here in Texas, maybe the world at those two things. And then Brian I see is really good about I keep i keep talking about is like killing your spirit and it's not necessarily theres nothing but in peace. Yeah, that's right.
00:09:35
Speaker
should they be you to death i really do want to do a disclaimer before we launch to into this because it's. you know Texas has a reputation you know it's talking about aggression in malifaux is very very on brand for texas all of us that play here have had our teeth kicked in by opponents and have learned lessons the hard way but it's not about being.
00:09:58
Speaker
an asshole it's not about making them hate you know making an opponent hate the game it's about making them have like terrible choices at them you know wondering why they're playing that particular game at that particular moment not hating the game overall you know and so i mean brian makes me question my life choices in general sometimes and so does andre but well your life choices are questionable anyway i don't know if that's an us thing oh i mean fair
00:10:29
Speaker
i have podcasts ah so yeah no so no i think I think Brian's the perfect person to talk about this for because literally his like known catchphrase in my mind the first thing I can think of when Brian plays Malefoe is how can I do this in a way that's going to be annoying is literally the thing he says at the table the most often and so if you're going to talk about trying to kill someone's spirit I think Brian's the man to talk to. And I think so too. And so I'm super excited about this. But yeah, the these guys, ah yeah I'm looking looking at you both. you know You are absolute pleasures to play against, um ah even when you're kicking my teeth in. and so um And then we have a chance after a game, we always have a chance to like sit around and talk and learn a lot. And so I'm really hoping to be able to share that kind of experience with our listeners here today of, you know, here's what it feels like to have played against them and gotten your face kicked in by them. And then you can learn and and and get better hopefully from it and level up. so So that's what we're trying to do here.
Selecting and Evaluating Malifaux Crews
00:11:33
Speaker
And we'll see how it works, but I'm excited about trying.
00:11:36
Speaker
so um So let's just get into it. That we always kind of have this thing in in Students of Conflict about like before the tournament even starts and then before a game. And so I'm kind of going to roll through that framework, um but talking about killing as we go. And so before the tournament even starts and that you both, you know you you pick a master and and you're kind of Setting up your default crew and I put default in air quotes because sometimes it's like a fixed crew and sometimes it's vaguely fixed, but you're you're trying to kind of lay out what models you want. And so what are you thinking about? And I kind of just, we'll start with Andre and then we'll flip over to Brian and please jump in on each other. But when you're looking at a keyword, what are you thinking when it comes to killing or neutralizing an opponent's model?
00:12:24
Speaker
um Well, um we can start with the basics. If you're looking at damage tracks ah that the crew provides, you have to figure out how to be able to apply those damage tracks and be satisfied with the kind of damage those damage tracks are bringing. so As an example, um I know that we were just talking a lot about ah Ryan and his crew. like PK with Stullstone Cash and a Power Token can just go to Min5. That's real easy to convert into dead models. um Whereas if you have something like Nelly, ah where her damage track is a 134. If you're engaging an enemy model, ah you'll take 134 and a one more question. She's not going to put models down nearly as fast as a PK is. And so you kind of take that ah and expand that out to, OK, cool. How do I get those damage tracks onto the models that I need to die? um Because there's a strong difference between trying to get
00:13:21
Speaker
um let's say the 235 on a melee attack into the right spot versus trying to get a 235 on like a clockwork pistol ah into the right target, it becomes much easier with that kind of range. So the two things that I look for, even from just a basic sense, is literal damage values and how can I get that literal damage value down range.
00:13:46
Speaker
Um, and if those two things connect, then it's a crew that I can try to play. Um, because I have played crews where like, like a Nelly crew where it's like Nelly's not really trying to kill you. She's trying to annoy you to death. Um, as a player. Right. Yeah. So it's like, wait what what why hasn't brian played that i actually i actually have played that crew but yeah okay i have played nelly we always get there then okay awesome yeah so the problem is when nelly's game plan doesn't work or your opponent just spreads uh nelly doesn't get to control the board like she wants to like nelly's ideal opponent is someone who's like combat script is
00:14:25
Speaker
go to the closest enemy, take attacks until dead. And if that's your opponent's script, no one works out great. But anyway, Nellie doesn't bring the kill power that I want to have because while she can give you slow, stunned, and distracted, the best CC is death.
00:14:40
Speaker
And I like that CC a lot more. um It turns out it's really hard to score into Nakeemah because you are dead. um And so Nellie tries to slow you down where if yeah I can just put you in the floor.
00:14:54
Speaker
um That's, that's the quickest way to go about it. Um, so what is, when I'm looking for kill power and cruise, it comes down to target access and literal damage values. Um, and so I can't live without those because what I was bringing up Nelly is the point Nelly doesn't kill stuff. I cannot play that crew. Well, there it is, it is beyond me. I want to get activation control. I want to get models that annoy me off the table. Um, and you can't do that if things don't die.
00:15:23
Speaker
And you know what? Condition removal cannot remove the dead condition. Very difficult to remove. There are technically people that could do it, you know, yon lo, notwithstanding. But for the most part, it's, uh, you know, the other, et cetera. But so, so is it. And I was wondering as I was kind of thinking about this interview here or this, this episode that, you know, there's definitely, you know, what I can't think of as like Blender, um,
00:15:51
Speaker
keywords, you know, Dashal strikes me as a Blender keyword or Nekomata certainly is. um The, the idea of like, you know, Hinamatsu is probably the biggest Blender model I could think of. And so I'm like, you know, running, running, you know, puppet. And so you get Corfe Duet and Hinamatsu, you know, obviously you're not running any of those. You've run Nekomata, obviously before, but you're not running or this GG. So is it just the getting them down range part that stops you from running them? Or is it what is,
00:16:22
Speaker
are Are they not blendery enough? Or like, what is it? what's What's the other factors? So the other fact that comes into it is I not only need to hit hard and hit first, I also need to survive any counter attacks. And that's kind of where my recent shift towards gun crews have started coming into play. So in the original heyday, ah there was not enough ways for slow moving deathball crews to score.
00:16:46
Speaker
ah for Nakeemah to really have any problems, right? Like Hoffman and GG zero could not play the spread to the four wins, you know, drop bombs or do the corrupted idols running or whatever. He wasn't good at that kind of thing. So I didn't have to worry about Hoffman as an opponent um because he didn't show up that much. And when he did, he didn't have any answers for black blood at the time. He didn't have metallurgist as a model to hire at the time. um So I didn't have issues taking on Hoffman in my Nakeemah heyday.
Counterplay and Adaptability in Malifaux
00:17:14
Speaker
ah These days, I have to deal with a PK. There is enough ways for Hoffman to feed me to a PK, and for that PK to now have no prisoners, which makes it just like immune to black blood, or you can do a metallurgist, which makes it basically immune to black blood, um that that he can kind of account for Nakeemah's usual answers to things.
00:17:33
Speaker
um that it's painful. Additionally, the crews that are just in the current era these days have a lot of stuff that ruins your day up close. Like extended reach sucks. By the book sucks. There's a lot of things, or even just like a McCabe, right? Like his penalty aura, five inch aura to your attacks.
00:17:54
Speaker
all comes into play once you get close to the enemy. um So for me, being having a stat 7, 3, 5, 6 is awesome, but if I have to jump through a bunch of flaming hoops in order to apply that damage track, it loses its value immensely, which is why I shifted to things like Perdita, who has two options. Either I get to ignore all of your bullshit, and I don't have to worry about it with ah duck and cover on Ephlamontor, so Frank gets to live the Nakeemah fantasy.
00:18:19
Speaker
um of the olden days, or I can just deal damage at a range. like I can look at Tomb Curse and say, dang, that would suck if I was anywhere close to you. Anyway, here's a bunch of guns. And that opens up a lot of possibilities of either just like not having to worry about the opponent's tech. And additionally, it lets me pick models that I don't want to deal with and just eat them. Because if i have to you know if I've got a focused Perdita with a two, four, five gun, um and she's like, what am I going to throw this shot at?
00:18:48
Speaker
I can look at a PK and go, cool, armor two and hard to wound. Even with focus, I'm probably on an egg. It's probably going to deal damage through armor. But I'm going to be like, but wait a minute, there's that little piece of garbage mecha tendon. He's got what? Four hit points on an arm? Oh, that guy's going down. And so that's what the guns let you have access to. Much easier is those support pieces to keep a crew running smoothly.
00:19:10
Speaker
um that ah target access for me in this current era of Killafoe became much more important than simply the damage tracks that you're using to get the job done. um Which is why a 245 is obviously worse than a 356, but where you get to put it and how you get to put it there and from the distance you get to put it is much more important these days. Okay, no, that that makes total sense. And they're talking about the counterplay into, you know, something like a metrologist, metrologist. Metrologist? Yeah. I don't know. Good Lord. I just lost. Metallurgist. Lost. metal yeah The metal lady. ah Ability to. Not the meteorologist. Right. Exactly. The ability for that model to counteract something like, you know, in a Hoffman crew to counteract something like Nakama is kind of in my mind, the example of
00:20:09
Speaker
you know the other side of the the coin, not just killing, but yeah that our opponent is trying to mess with our ability to kill them. you know It's like, you got to kill the guy and not get killed by the guy at the same time. and so oh And so kind of what I was hearing from you, and yeah, you're not you're not enjoying the Nelly play style of somebody who's really, really good at disrupting your efforts to kill them.
00:20:34
Speaker
you know, you hate to see them on the other side of the table and you don't want to, you got to be able to counter what they're trying to do to you, but you don't want to play that. Is that just kind of play style or do you think like your personal play style and temperament or do you think that that is inherently weaker than the killy part? Does that make sense? You know, like, would you ever play an Ellie or a Pandora competitively?
00:20:57
Speaker
Um, I think it's a mixture of both. Like I think that my, the way that I approach the game, there are certain like models that I would rather just not deal with. And the fastest way to not deal with them is to kill them. Like giving me an example, like Mr. Tannen from Jacob Lynch's keyword, that dude, like the discarded card to cheat aura is butt cheeks to play into. It's like, cool. I have half a hand now.
00:21:19
Speaker
um And that sucks so bad to play into but if you're like, well, I'm just gonna bow up I'm gonna throw one attack at him. I'm gonna throw a focus He'll take six damage and then I don't have to think about that card for the rest of the game um and that kind of Gratifying release from having to think about whatever it is on the latest model um From just being like I don't have to think about it cuz no the table anymore is
Psychological Pressure and Game Control
00:21:43
Speaker
instead. Yeah is is gratifying. Well, and there's a lot of things that like don't care about whether or not they're slowed, stunned, distracted. Like if you're trying to kill something else as an example, like it fits Simmons from, uh, iron sites crew, like that dude can be in a coma, but as long as he's on the table, his friends within range are getting minus one damage. And you're like, I can't kill anything with this dude just standing there, open mouth, slack jawed, just be like, oh bo is most what do makes your line How do I get this dude off the table? um And so like there are ways to play around it where you can be like, oh, well I can do like a reverse kidnap where I'm just going to fling you out of your crew and then try to do stuff. But it's just easier if he's just dead. So there's a lot of stuff that killing is the easiest answer. And I think we ran into this at the beginning of the GG.
00:22:35
Speaker
Uh, for GG four, right? Like we had all these schemy schemes come out. There's a lot of interact, heavy strategies. You need to interact 10 times in order to score cloak at full points. Um, like all of that came out. We're like, Oh dude, it's going to be such a scheme runner, heavy meta. And that was true for like six weeks. And then everyone was like, you know what? Me and this guy were struggling over this point. I just hit him in the head with a rock and it was really easy to vote after it.
00:23:02
Speaker
So we quickly relearned that Killafoe is still really, really effective. Can't interact when you're dead. Correct. ah So it all comes back to that basic principle. All right. And I want to chime in on the whole, like, choosing, like, make sure Model's dead, because I ran into this, ah what was it, last week. I was playing a game on NWS, and I was playing, it's a cry player. I knew he was going to bring Gwissen, right? And I was like, man, I got to kill a Gwissen.
00:23:30
Speaker
The question he brings on is going to be super difficult for me to get around because I need to remove it. So I was looking at, I i declared Reva 2, I was looking through the crew, and I went, oh wait, I can somehow get Vincent to be a 567.
00:23:48
Speaker
through in corporeal. And so like, you know what, this is my goal. I'm going to do a five, six, seven damage flip. I'm going to shoot it with a focus. I'm going to remove a term one and I hail married and I fricking hit it and I killed it. And it was so, so beautiful. I was so happy. I, the rest of the game didn't matter after that point. Not going to be taking any more hits on anybody. It took its one.
00:24:14
Speaker
Uh, it was even better because like I did the kill of a thing. I'm merging in the Andres style and you could feel just the guys um want to play the game, desire to play the game, fit, drain away, which fits into my other way. I play the game because he's like, he just went to have to listen. Like, what do I do at 10 inches away? lucky Yes. Cry. Cry is what you do.
00:24:41
Speaker
so So how about the neutralize versus kill thing? And I'm thinking about, um
00:24:49
Speaker
I don't know, Tara, you know i'm i'm I'm looking through the camera at Ryan and it's like, yeah, and everybody's buried. you know Their auras don't matter. you know it's ah yeah ah what's your What's your take on that? I haven't noticed you playing Tara. Is that something that that you look at or or you know a Lady J as you as you go through your guild stable a little bit, is that something that, yeah is is that kind of effect It's maybe the same kind of question as the disruption effects. Is that just inherently worse in your mind than killing? And is that a play style thing or is that the nature of the game? um So I would say that the closest I ever came to like a control play style ah so far has been my Parker 2 run. ah So the dude's got a 10 inch range gun.
00:25:36
Speaker
that all it does is it moves the target up to four inches. And if it's an enemy gives it staggered. Um, and there's some models that really doesn't matter to like Perdita's like you, okay, whatever. But like a peacekeeper is like, I just dropped to move to, and I'm not in range 12 anymore. Like that is atrocious to try to push through. And like, especially for something like the PK, where it's like, cool, not only am I moved to no one else's pant transfer powers work on me anymore. Cause I'm staggered. Like that slows that model down. Um, and so Parker.
00:26:06
Speaker
did a lot of that where you would have like, uh, you know, a move five model at range 10 going from I can walk charge to I'm now at 14 and I'm only moved three. That is an entire turn that I'm just trying to struggle my way back into the fight. Um, and meanwhile Parker's whole crew has guns. So it's that, it's that gap that he's able to maintain with that kind of control. Um, and so that's the closest I got to like a control style crew. Um,
00:26:35
Speaker
But the control was only in the context of, I need an extra round of time of the PK not chewing on my face so I can gun everything else down. So it was still only a an impetus by which my damage was bought time. um As far as like a full control crew, there are very effective examples of it. I think Terra is a great example. Glimpse the void for specific models.
00:26:56
Speaker
is just game ending. Being able to be like, all right, cool. ah you know We'll keep beating on the peacekeepers in the example. But like you if you have some model that ran off to the side, you you got a watcher out in the corner trying to score outflank or whatever. And then your opponent's like, all right, cool. You got glimpsed. ah Your PK is now in the corner of the board. You're done. like there That model is not making it back to the center fight for the rest of the game. um And so there are examples of effective control. um But I think it's mostly positional.
00:27:25
Speaker
I don't think that like like handing a model slow is always valuable. Like youre I'm not saying you're not going to get mileage out of those. But I think that the best way to think about that kind of control is.
00:27:36
Speaker
extend the gap that you need to have in order to finish killing models. Because you can get models overwhelmed. Like, I have lost Frank to the Hoffman ball, where it's like, all right, cool. I'm sure he'll have a good time in there. And then it's like, did you know that irreducible doesn't care about any of your defensive tech? um And then he just gets his clock cleaned. And you're like, dang, that sucked. If Joss had just had to go sit and time out for a turn, this would have really helped me out.
00:28:02
Speaker
Um, so I think that that is the best way to think about control that it is effective But only in the context of extending your lifespan for your damage dealers buying some time yeah so that you can kill stuff Okay, correct to piggyback on that that exact example Brian Was it our game where we drew where I did that same thing to you with your rogue necromancies and all that stuff Yeah, he essentially just buried my rogue necromancy over and over. The entire game just buried it. And so it was just. But to emphasize to your point, it didn't get the win because I couldn't kill the thing. Like I kept damaging it, kept coming back, kept getting healed. And it was like a conga line of things getting buried. But if you can't finish it off like I couldn't, then it still doesn't secure you the win. Yeah, it's buying time. But OK, no, that's great. Great way to think about that. Thank you. So ah shifting over to the the idea about
00:28:55
Speaker
um kind of the the third part of our ah of our framework here, as yeah how much value do we put on killing an opponent's spirit? and And Brian, that's kind of your your your specialty, maybe. but But yeah, how does it, and especially compared to just killing models, you know how much of that, is is that like priority two, or is that really priority one for you?
00:29:24
Speaker
I don't want to be known for this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But no, it's, it's, uh, and I, and I don't mean to be like overly aggressive with it, you know, but it's like, no, you're really good at limiting an opponent's options. So I'll talk into, I'll, I'll use that language for the rest of this here. It's fine. It's fine. It's just funny. ah So Brian, when you're ruining someone's day, what's the top of mind for you? yeah like see So when I'm going into a game, the idea is not to make my opponent have an unfun game, but my my goal is to create situations and types of pressure that my opponent has to figure out how to deal with. And the hope is that these types of pressures will eventually secure me the win because, you know, the the people that makes the most mistakes are the ones that lose the game.
00:30:15
Speaker
And so when your opponent is under these different levels of pressure, whether it's that their clock is running out, whether their hand, ah their hand is horrible, or they keep losing cards, or they have to deal with terrifying, or ah they hate keep getting dealing with slow and staggered and being pushed around.
00:30:34
Speaker
oh Or they just they can't handle the AP gain that you're that you're
Manipulating Opponent's Choices and Game Flow
00:30:38
Speaker
gaining. I think all of that will slowly lead that to them making more mistakes because they're playing under under sub-optimal standards, which then allows you to ah make better plays than them. And that's my long con for the win, is just to make slightly more optimal plays and make my opponent have spots where they just make less optimal plays, so right?
00:31:02
Speaker
um And so whenever I'm looking at a crew, I'm trying to figure out what what the crew brings to the table that is going to apply these different levels of pressure. And I'm going to only talk about green because that's all I really know very well.
00:31:19
Speaker
I mean, we can talk about Nellie. Nellie is great for pressure, but like Andra said, she has issues. um Like, shtuk is hand pressure. And there's added hand pressure if your opponent has to make decisions on cheating, which burns their brainpower and burns their intent on the game. ah You have Karai, who has so much AP that your opponent just can't deal with it. um When I played Dixon at round six at Lone Star at the Fodown, he just he couldn't handle the amount of extra models in AP I had on the table. And to be honest, a lot of my opponents end up clocking out into my karai. Even though I have 12 or 13 models on the table, it's my opponent that's clocking out because they don't know how to deal with 13 models that are all doing stuff, right?
00:32:06
Speaker
um And I guess back to your original question of like whether it's where does a kill priority fit? it's does it ah Is it going to apply the pressure, score points, or deny points is usually the question I ask on killing. And if it doesn't do any of those three things, then I'm not as worried about it. I'm more worried about going somewhere else, personally. What I would say, Brian, is really effective at is something I would call keeping your king in check.
00:32:36
Speaker
There's always a situation, if i am if I'm against the ropes, against Brian, I'm having to make a critical decision about, do I go left or do I go right all the time? Where it's like, well, I would love to be able to summon models right now, but Vincent's still on the table. But also I would love for the valedictorian to stop ripping me in half. What's my best call here?
00:32:59
Speaker
Um, and you know, maybe there is a best call and you should make that decision, but you're still being presented with several forks on the road at a given point. And he's always in a position where he's like I said, keeping your King in check where it's like, all right, cool. Here's the decision you gotta make. All right. She's, she's up the board. She's got focus. She's two shielded. She is in striking range of models. You don't want to lose. Are you going to respond to that? Are you going to keep trying to run schemes over here? What are you going to do? Um, and I think that that kind of sets the tempo for the game. And that's the kind of.
00:33:28
Speaker
psychological pressure that Brian speaking to is he is constantly asking you questions rather than waiting to see what you do and then trying to respond to those questions. And with that kind of keep and check gameplay ah that can keep an opponent off balance mentally. So thank you, Andre. You're welcome. That kind of leads to a question that I've got that I jotted down here of And I feel like both of you having played against both of you, you both do a good job of this, is controlling the the flow of the board, helping ah working your opponent towards the outcome you want your opponent to be doing. And how do you bait your opponent?
00:34:20
Speaker
into killing the wrong model in your crew. Because ah we've discussed several times on this podcast the importance of target priority. And yeah, sometimes you know what, you get it where your opponent just isn't able to kill anything. But it's very rare that you can make it where your opponent just can't kill anything at all. But how do you work it so that your opponent chooses the wrong target?
00:34:51
Speaker
I think the answer to that is you have to present ah enough options that gives them more chances of failure. and try to make it seem like something's applying pressure in a way that's not. ah For example, my game into Jim at the Fodown, I think we talked about last um we talked about last time,
00:35:13
Speaker
where at the end of the game, he had to make a decision on, do I go in on the Rogue Necromancy or do I try to score the scheme? And he thought, oh, no, I need to go in on the Rogue Necromancy right now because if I don't, it's going to be a problem, which it could have been. But though the right answer was to not go for the kill. right But with the rogue necromancy being right up there in his face and just being the freakin' rogue necromancy, he had to make a decision. And it's super scary. And it forces him to ah make judgment calls. And ah like Andre said, I like asking those kind of questions and seeing what my how my opponent reacts.
00:35:49
Speaker
I love that idea of just, yeah, it's kind of like, yeah i'm I'm asking a lot of questions. One of those is always, is today the day you want to die? you know you know as As a model, you know is this is this your last activation for this model? you know And as long as that's always one of the questions, then you can also ask a bunch of others and be very effective. ah Do you, Andre, try to do that? Ask lots of questions at the same time? Or is it like,
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah, almost in inevitable. You have no choice. This model is going to die. I tell you, that's kind of what it feels like on the receiving end. But that may be. Absolutely. I agree with that. Well, yeah. No, I try to ask instead of asking multiple questions and trying to get you to trip up, I just try to have a question that cannot be asked. If I can get you with a this statement is false approach to the game.
00:36:38
Speaker
um Then I feel like I've got it made through like, you know, with my, my Frank run, uh, you know, under Perdita, like Frank, I think for the most part is an unanswerable question. Like Hoffman can bring him down. There are match-ups where he can go down, but for the most part, if the opponent tries to answer that question, they just lose. Um,
00:37:00
Speaker
So that's kind of my approach instead of asking, you know, do you want to go here or there? It's like, all right, ah there's not a question here. Please stand here. and um so And so I think that is actually kind of what gets me some of the time is that ah with using my Perdita Cruz example, people will ah Refuse to even consider the question of Frank and be like, all right, cool I'm not gonna touch that guy. Someone's gonna get axe murdered. That sucks. Anyway, let's go after his back line um And I think that that I mean you could say that the question is do I try to deal with Frank or not? um But the answer is never yes. I should deal with Frank. It's always Let that dude do what he's gonna do. Let's try and trip up as much of the engine behind him as we can and
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah, but but to the point, you always ask the question of, do you want to kill Frank? Would you like to try? Because you will throw that dude up to the middle of the table, unactivated, with focus, and be like, all right, he's right here. And for your whole crew, do you have any of you to kill him? It feels like some juicy bait there. My dumbass will try. Well, I'm eager to try. If you don't have irreducible, it just doesn't work. Yeah, but that's like if you don't have the irreducible to ignore the plus that essentially two armor on him. ah Yeah, it's all the killing. I mean, I think in our last game, me and Brian, I think Frank absorbed like 35 or 40 damage raw.
00:38:36
Speaker
just from him getting chewed on by his students and Von Stuck for like every round for like five, and he lived, he lived to the end of the game, that dude was still kicking. um But to be fair, he was injured the entire time and he couldn't do shit the whole game. Yes, he was having a bad day. ah I mean, a injured two or injured three, Frank trying to pass terrifying checks is just not going to happen.
00:38:58
Speaker
It was a rough time, for sure. But he did hold the line, I will say. that But yeah, so I think that that, if I had to sum it up, stylistically, our different approaches is either asking an answerable question as opposed to asking several questions and seeing if you can get one wrong.
Recognizing and Countering Bait
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah. No, I like that. So so i've I've got a follow up question on that one, kind of the other side of that coin. And this goes to both Brian and Andre, because I feel like you have, will have two very different answers to this.
00:39:25
Speaker
How do you choose the right model to for your target priority and resist the opponent's juicy bait? Or know no when they're trying to bait you into going after a model that is not your ideal choice?
00:39:44
Speaker
I'll be honest, uh, the bait will always get me the first time. And then I learned the lesson. Okay. So how do you mean that the first game or the first time each again? The first game. So the first game that I see this B I'm like, you know what? Let me try and see what the results are. I think I have the sauce and go, Oh no, I don't have the sauce. And now I know for next time that I can't deal with it.
00:40:08
Speaker
Um, for example, uh, Frank with Dita in our first game, I learned I can't kill him. So in our last game, I wasn't really trying to murder him as much as I was just trying to like say, stop, just, just chill, dude. It's okay. It's fine. me to chill ho
00:40:28
Speaker
Don't, don't each took again, please. Uh, well, I think it's fairly obvious what your opponent wants you to chew on. Typically it is the model closest to your crew. Um, and so you kind of have to stop and consider it because to Brian's point, you never know for sure what.
00:40:45
Speaker
ah What the turnout's going to be on your attempt to try to kill something because most of the time I'm pretty confident in Frank's ability to be like, nice speed or fight. Let's have a kaiju fight. All right, cool. I win. Um, but sometimes he does lose the kaiju fight. Um, and so you have to know what that is. And so sometimes you got to learn by taking it across the job. But once you have those kinds of reps under your belt, um,
00:41:10
Speaker
You can be like, all right, cool. I'm never going to kill a peacekeeper this turn. I'm going to start going for support pieces instead. I try to make kills based on what I know I can guarantee in my hand. So if I'm looking at, you know, if I have a expert marksman model, um but I don't have any tomes in hand, I can wish for all the armor models to die, but I can't actually guarantee it.
00:41:32
Speaker
ah So that kind of shifts my aim, where I'm like, well, let's go for, you know, the metallurgist or whatever models don't have stuff that I can't punch right now or deal with. um And then I'll work on those other things later through incidental damage or prospecting attacks, because models like the peacekeeper with that hard to wound there, like, are you probably dealing a damage? Yeah, but I could flip red and then the PK is halfway to dead. um So but you don't want to have to like,
00:41:57
Speaker
Well, I just got to throw enough spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks. Um, you want to, you want to save those kills for later down the line where you know, you can get value. So for me, um, it's less is my opponent baiting me into this and more. Where do I think I'm going to get guaranteed value? Um, because that's where I measure most of my attacks where it's like, I know this model can die. I know that model can die. Um, I'm going to, I'm going to capitalize on what I know will happen and then work it out from there.
00:42:27
Speaker
Spaghetti against the wall. We always bring it back to food here. I have some conflict No, that's great that let me see if we had a few other before the tournament kind of questions that Coming out of Discord. Okay, so this is kind of part of the crew selection. We've talked about about hiring the the high-end beaters and the damage tracks that you're looking for on that. um But Wolfbun or Grant had asked, um many cheap models are considered weak and bad for being too easy to kill, liabilities towards activation control, et cetera. um At what point does a model's survivability
00:43:08
Speaker
hit the tipping point where it's it's it's worth putting into kind of a generic crew, even though they're kind of weak. And and of course, it depends. And so you can't say that, but but or it depends on what.
00:43:21
Speaker
I mean, you can even just look at like the enslaved spirit is probably one of the most taken models in Rezzers. Heck yeah. And it's a three health defense five model that has N corp. But it's super useful for getting your models at the board and it drops a free ski marker and it's significant. ah But it's real easy to put down if anyone puts literally any kind of effort into it. um I think it all comes down to utility.
00:43:47
Speaker
Well, and kind of where the model wants to exist. So I think the enslaved spirit is a perfect example of a model that in its ideal best life wants to be nowhere near an actual fight. um So it wants to stay at a distance, wants to chain gang models in the range, and then be like, you guys have fun at the fight, and then run off and go interact and score points. I think ah a counter example of a model that's really, really bad um for the opposite reason is the Bayou Gator. That is a five health, defense five model with stealth.
00:44:16
Speaker
Uh, it's only contribution to any game is the amount of a attacks it can throw at the enemy in literally based contact. That is a zero inch reach model with five health and a smile and melee. Um, and so that's the kind of model you're like, yeah, I'm literally never going to get any value out of this because it's going to have, maybe it's one turn where it didn't get killed before it ran in. It will run in, get a couple of attacks, look cute and then die. Um, Unless you bring Marcus. Right. Yeah, some wings. You can invest master resources that could have gone on good models to make Flying
Utility of Cheap Models and Tech Picks
00:44:48
Speaker
Crocodiles. And I'll grant you that. It's not Flying Crocodiles. No, I hear you. But um oh man it's got ruthless and flurry. Like, I don't see a downside.
00:44:58
Speaker
And stealth who can argue with stealth when you're it Exactly exactly so um and I think like a good middle ground between those two I would say is the inhuman reflexes blood retch So if you are so good, dude So to me the inhuman reflexes blood retch has many layers of nuisance That make it worth being a beater minion at a low cost and you know, it's seven with the upgrade but still I'm getting I got to interrupt because many layers of nuisance like if that if we didn't already have a tagline for this pod, that would absolutely be it. I believe that's just um Brian's nickname. There you go.
00:45:41
Speaker
ah many of layers used Sorry, I had to jump in as you were Andre. Uh, we always, so you've got a model with, uh, scamper. So like, if you got a big ah R I've got flurry and a bunch of men threes coming in, it'll go, ha ha one swing. Well, do you have to cheat to hit that? And we're like, well, yeah, I had a good heart. And so it's like, all right, cool. I'm out of range. Um, or, uh, and then like hard to kill and it has drink blood, which it just seems to hit so much. So like it's continuing to use that hard to kill factor in addition to scamper. And the other part of it is that I'm never saving high cards for cheap models, but blood wretches don't need good cards.
00:46:17
Speaker
Because it's a model that you're like, all right, cool. I'm going to get three damage on a target by blade rushing you twice because I have friends who charge and blade rush and mobile warrior for some reason. Uh, and so I'm just going to go to stash and then I'm going to use my bonus to deal another damage. And that didn't take it to you neither. And then the blood rush can get to the end of his turn saying I've hit zero attacks and dealt three damage to a model. Um, and that's.
00:46:37
Speaker
a great value for that kind of cheap beater minion area. ah So it kind of, like I said, it depends on the tech that it's bringing for that low cost and what its job is. Wicked dolls are great because they don't want to be anywhere near a melee. Gators are terrible because they would like to lick your balls while firing and have no tech to back that up. I think another low cost minion that definitely Its utility outweighs its liabilities are fucking kruligans. Oh, what? You mean you mean glorious kruligans, but that's OK. Kruligans for cost. They. Daddy, weird, please help. But there's the only reason why Molly is playable, though, without kruligans, Molly, just she just shuts off.
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah, rework the key. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, um no, no. I agree. If you're a nerf krill against you, you've reworked the keyword because it changed by your side to sidekick. Yeah, no, I think ah everything with a lot of it by your side should be psychic. In my opinion, 100 percent. I agree with that because by your side is busted this shit, not the wound off of them. Speaking of another model is a beater model is trash. That's also Molly or that is Molly is rebel risers.
00:47:58
Speaker
absolute dogshit model. Even, even fricking trying to summon this thing. It's not even worth it. It's not worth it. You wanted to know why they're so bad. Because are they not punk zombies anymore? Because they changed the name. Yeah. Punk zombies. That shit's scary. Rabble riser. What the fuck is that?
00:48:17
Speaker
Like, Oh, we have blade rush, but no frenzy charge. This is hardly useful. And, uh, it's just, they, they suck. Uh, I miss punk zombies, punk zombies were doing fair when anytime someone refers to a rabble riser, it takes me a month ago. Oh, right. The model formerly known as punk zombies.
00:48:36
Speaker
Not gonna lie, that's exactly what happened to me just now. I was like, what is that? Yeah, I forgot punk zombies existed.
00:48:44
Speaker
so Skelly wags, can I get a, you know, are they respectable? I like them a lot. And again, they look cool. So again, cool models, you know. And again, I got nothing against playing wrestlers because they look cool or scallywags because wrestlers aren't. Yeah. There is a level of like, what what do they bring into the fight? What are they? Are they actually scoring points when the answer is consistently no. i forgot forgot If I could pick any instrument to be, you know, get promoted to master, it would be Maturoha and then just have a whole wrestling the themed. Oh, like wouldn't that be wouldn't that be fucking great? Yes. Yeah. That would be rad. I'm there for it.
00:49:26
Speaker
It would, but I think that we're on the, um, a Toto game promoted and then having a samurai themed. Oh, the Bushido keyword. Okay. Okay. That's so that that have that and have the, you know, the wrestlers, the Luchador keyword or. Yeah.
00:49:45
Speaker
It would be glorious. We're derailing here. what We are derailing. That's why I do this. But we were just talking about some kind of defensive tech. So another thing on, um and and we kind of touched it, but there's just this entire spectrum of defensive tech available. um What is worth it when you're thinking about your our opponents are trying to kill our models at the same time that we're trying to kill them or kill their you know put put tons of pressure on them um defensive tech that has a ton of value we've talked a lot about the offensive side of killing there is a stop them from killing us piece as well uh what's your favorite uh i think that the best is gonna be hard to wound
00:50:26
Speaker
because it it makes it so the focus is hit. Don't hit as hard. They can't guarantee those severe and your model stay up longer. Although you do see the red joker much more often on damage flips, but it's a good trade off of my mind. ah I mean, my favorite defensive attack in the game is incorporeal. It turns off so much crap.
00:50:52
Speaker
Or really the the two big bullies right now are obviously attack damage, which duh, but also ignoring hazardous. ah Or making boards not suck because sometimes you get down to a board like odd dude can't wait to play a game mouth Oh, and you're like my lord that Titan ribcage takes up the entire center of this table Yes, it would love to be able to play through the center, which don't you rock duck? It's a beautiful board But when you sit down to play at that table, you're like, yeah This is just two lanes. Um, but with the Caporia models you can get around that stuff So for me, that's the kind of defensive tech I look for
00:51:29
Speaker
Um, because it solves multiple problems, but I, it's also cause it's offensive for you too. Sure. Yeah. It lets me get to places and kill things, but I think that reduction and jump through a fucking wall. Yeah. Like going through wall and that's ended up itself a defensive aspect, right? Or like, if I can be like, Oh, I don't want any of these people to touch me. I'm going to phase walk through this wall. Um, and they can have fun walking around and what have you, but I think that generally speaking, damage reduction is my favorite because except for things that ignore it, it always works.
00:51:59
Speaker
Um, which hard to wound sometimes just like, yep, I had an egg and I still took moderate or I had an egg and there's the red. And now I have to completely change how my life's going to go. Um, because, you know, my random model that I thought was going to be totally fine instead just ate it. Um, so for me, hard to wound is.
00:52:20
Speaker
it's more of a a card savings than an actual model savings. Because what happens is you'll still have a model die, but you didn't have to cheat moderates to severe in order to make an attack land on negs. And so you're ahead in kind of a resource game rather than actually saving the model consistently.
00:52:38
Speaker
ah Makes good sense. so Cool. Thank you. Great question there from Diceman. Anything that we haven't covered yet, from kind of any thoughts from anybody here on kind of before the tournament even starts? We're we're not quite to the game point yet. An hour in. Yeah, look out. We made it to a game. We're actually at a game now. Nice. You've got your, ah you you know who your opponent is now. And so you're having to make your ah your final, or you know, the opposing master rather, you're having to make final decisions on your crew and upgrades. And so what kind of tech picks do you guys make when you're thinking about killing, you know, or preventing people from being killed or just demoralizing them? And so what kind of tech picks do you make?
00:53:28
Speaker
We'll go Andre. and ah And I could give a little more flavor for that if you want, but. No, that's perfectly fine. Well, and Guild deals a lot in like tech picking to deal with specific models. Um, so the two things that come to mind for me are how do I deal with armor and shielded and how do I deal with if I need to summons? So Guild has two really good answers to that. So like the lone Marshall as an example, as a tech hire, um, has an extra system trigger on his bonus action that says, are you a summoned model? If yes, get off my table.
00:53:59
Speaker
Um, and that is the lowest value cost for highest output, being able to just be like, dang, a thrall that's crazy. Anyway, click it's off the table. Um, it's the lowest investment for highest payout that you can really think of. And so that makes it a really nice tech hire, uh, into those summon kind of models. Um, but the other aspect of this is armor, right? Like if I'm Perdita.
00:54:23
Speaker
And I locked and I sit down and I don't want to play Perdita one because Perdita two is God's gift to guild. And I'm like, but dang it. I really need analyze into that keyword. What do I do?
Defensive Strategies and Scheme Selection
00:54:32
Speaker
I go, all right, cool. I'm going to hire agent 46. He's got a stat seven analyze turns off the armor and shield for the rest of the turn. If he's playing Hoffman two, uh, he might have middle or just give somebody temper steel, but for the most part you can give the bad touch to the armor reduction models. Um.
00:54:48
Speaker
And so it puts you in a much better spot. um So there's there's specific matchups. Another one that I've recently had to cope with was Anya. um She's got sovereign in her keyword. And it's an armor two model. um And so that the two ways you can kind of come about that are like, either you can be like, yes, I'm going to try and punch armor um so that I just get to his six wound tasty delicious hit point pool. Or you can be like, yes, you will have armor that sucks. But anyway, I'm just going to hit severe and deal seven damage with a double grip. Did I not deal with the armor? yeah Kind of, but he still had a hit point when I'm done. um And so those are the kind of tech picks that come up.
00:55:27
Speaker
Um, and how I want to kill stuff. So yes, I very much approach the crew building phase with a, what am I going to use to kill these specific models? Do I have those tools in my kit right now? How do I add them in? Do you ever get the, the, the, the thing of like, what am I going to do to, you know, hiring defensive tech, uh, extended reach or whatever, because you're worried about them killing you or not. It's all about. Killing them, not all, but you know,
00:55:55
Speaker
And that that takes your your tech pit slot. We're going to go on the offensive with that one flex slot as opposed to go on the defensive. Um, well onto the defensive side of things, the kind of the defensive tech picks I would say are like, if I'm hiring, and we'll just say I'm pretty good to give examples. Uh, like Papa loco is actually a defensive hire. Um, because if you have like a Sami as an example, has a bunch of destructible hazardous terrain that makes it suck to play in.
00:56:25
Speaker
um If you don't have a way to deal with it and you know, you can have one model have beast hunters So who that he has depth of mouth Oh to ignore hazardous and that's cool for him But everyone else still has to us deal with all these hazardous markers if you hire Papa logo, he's got blow it to hell So I can be like, alright cool I'm gonna check this out here all this goes away now I have this little tunnel that I get to play the game in um as opposed to just having the entire map covered in hazardous or um things like Uh, even like guild mage brings a lot of tech, uh, like into a like a Hoffman opponent where he's bringing those pylons. I can be like, all right, cool. Glory the guild. That pylons now a ski marker instead. Uh, and I don't have to worry about these guys getting powered up, uh, without the Hoffman having to build another pylon or, um, just have to cope without having positives.
00:57:05
Speaker
Um, so there, there's definitely tech picks to kind of turn off the enemy stuff. I would guess the greatest example would be like crowd control out of the brutal emissary. If I'm expecting as a writer, um, to be like, well, you can't obey your stuff in this little six inch circle. Um, so there, there are examples of good defensive texts. Um,
00:57:22
Speaker
And frankly, the reason that I came on to Perdita in the first place was duck and cover, which is like the coolest defensive attack in the game. Being able to be like, all right, cool. If it's an aura, I ignore it. If it's a blast, I ignore it. If it's a pulse, I ignore it. Whatever it is, I don't want to deal with it. I'm out. And so when you show up to like a Jackdaw crew, it was like, oh, here's this minus one penalty to your willpower. And oh, here's.
00:57:42
Speaker
this aura where you have to discard a card in order to cheat. And here's this you know aura where if you're within the range, you just take damage for having staggered. You're like, I don't want to deal with any of this, and I don't have to with duck and cover. um And so those are the kind of tech picks um that drew me in into Perdita initially, being able to be like, that that would really suck if I had to think about that right now, and I don't. and I was going to say ditto.
00:58:08
Speaker
That would really suck, huh? Yeah. Yeah. so it's All right. So so so so Brian, what do you what do you normally do for for tech picks? and And does it kind of feed into the demoralizing opponent, give them give them lots of terrible choices? Or or is it, yeah, I need anti-armor here.
00:58:28
Speaker
Uh, so I'll be straightforward. I don't do a lot of tech picks. Okay. I just, I don't, uh, my opponent is generally reacting to me. Okay. Um, cause, cause I'm a princess. Heck yeah. They're like, Oh God, cry. How do I deal with all these summons? So that they're hiring the anti-summon tech or, uh, how do I deal with armor? Cause it's stuck. Like it's, it's usually my opponents are having to react to the cruise. I'm bringing to the table like, Oh,
00:58:57
Speaker
Brian's bringing Jack Dopp. OK, we have to deal with Ruthless. And so I don't really worry about too much with tech picks. I think I have ah ah i think i've brought in Manos recently to deal with a monkey in Lynn for anti-demise. That's about the same thing. But it's it's really not a ton of stuff unless it's um Really critical. Like obviously obviously the monkey in Lynn is a win con if you can kill that thing. So, uh, I did bring it in manos specifically for that in one game, but it's usually on the forefront of my mind, unless it's something that's a huge, uh, trigger I have to worry about in the game. Okay. Like, like Hoffman, I got bringing into armor. So the students steal my seat at the table. Okay. Or ping damage. I don't know. Use manos to handle the monkey.
00:59:52
Speaker
Yes. yeah Yeah. But yeah, you're like, I am i am asking the questions here. ah You're not asking me questions. I'm asking the question. ah I'm the Molly of Malifaux. I ask you questions. You don't ask me questions. Yeah. no that That makes total sense. So how about, um like, defensive tech? How killy does an opponent have to be before you're going to hire a Gwissen maybe?
01:00:18
Speaker
you know, ah or whatever. I'd take the hit model or, you know, some kind of, or, or is it your, your, yeah. Is that even a valid question for you? Maybe it is not, unfortunately. Okay. I don't think I've ever hired a quiz in outside of cry. Okay. Uh, cry. And I think maybe Reva once did I just do any Reva in the last game? ah yeah No, you didn't hire a question in your, in your last Reva game. I will say though, that the Gwishin higher will matter ah more for me. So I did a stint of Reserves with Sheamus. And is a full sweat master. He can abandon his keyword without another thought and just hire whatever he thinks he needs for a given matchup. um And I would hire Gwishin more often to prevent control happening to Sheamus rather than damage.
01:01:09
Speaker
Um, because Seamus can take some damage and be like kind of all right. But if he takes a stun or a slow and like his whole combo starts getting gummed up, uh, that's the actual death of Seamus. And so if you'd be like, dang lecture notes would be crazy. Anyway, here's a question. Um, really helps him out more than avoiding the damage. So for that, I think that like a take the hit model, um, like a question is, is a good hire for reserves. But I'd certainly see why Brian would avoid them because.
01:01:38
Speaker
For the most part, he plays keywords that are so naturally tanky that it's not a huge concern. Like, Stokes never like, oh man, it's fill in the blank, I'm cooked. like It never happens. Like, uh, I think that the only time I've considered a question recently was playing Reva because I want to keep those corpse candles alive. Uh, turn one. Um, yeah I would have been the killing them. Not you. great Those are my models to kill that yours. They die on my terms. Uh, but you know what? She has a in cure, take the hit models.
01:02:10
Speaker
I can just bring a shield bearer and he actually synergizes with their crew. Is he as good as Gwissen? In some cases, yes. In some cases, no, but it's within keyword and everyone knows I love my keywords. So, that makes sense. Amen.
01:02:24
Speaker
So cool. How about moving from crew selection to scheme selection? And I would love some thoughts on schemes when killing is a major focus. And part of the discussion goes to some of those schemes like, you know, there are schemes where killing is bad, you know, and hidden markers is maybe the classic example is not in this GG, but, but, yeah you know,
01:02:47
Speaker
you You don't want to kill the model necessarily. You're going to give them a point or schemes where you have to leave models alive. Let them bleed or vendetta or those kind of things or ah take prisoner where you just you have to leave them alive period. You know, so are those just like dead schemes to you Andre or is there a place for those and what would that place be?
01:03:07
Speaker
Um, so for me, I take things like take prisoners very, very rarely. There are exceptions. So, um, if there's a model in enemy crew where I'm like, I couldn't possibly care less that this model's alive right now. Um, like Chiyo in, uh, Yuko comes to mind where it's like, if Chiyo gets to live the whole game, how screwed am I? The answer is almost not at all.
01:03:31
Speaker
um And so if in those situations, you're like, all right, cool. There is a model I can keep alive. ah Beyond that, is there a way that I can force her to be where I want her to be? If yes, then cool. So like playing Parker with the lasso, being like, all right, cool. I'm just going to move you 12 inches over to here. I'll just hit you with the lasso three times. um And it gets easier because you're staggered and it's real easy to hit you. So you're over here. You can't move a lot. um And you're not lethal to my game plans. Take the prisoner. Awesome. Love it. So take prisoner. I have a healthy respect for it.
01:04:05
Speaker
The scheme that I absolutely despise is let them bleed. um Because not killing the highest cost models despite having damaged them to half or below twice pray in order to score ah is just dumb. Like it's literally asking you to play a melee badly.
01:04:25
Speaker
do what you're not supposed to do. Literally anyone knows that you're supposed to focus fire ah in order to get models down off the table, not have to worry about the next turn and because a half health peacekeeper and a full health peacekeeper rip your cheeks apart at the same speed. And so doing that and just leaving those models alive is really dumb. um So I would much rather have a intend to keep a specific model alive the whole time scheme rather than a kill the most important model slowly scheme.
01:04:55
Speaker
I mean, I'll piggyback on them. Say assassinate is probably my least favorite scheme. Okay. ah For the exact reason of if I'm investing all this time to kill a master, I don't want to leave it at one health and maybe get a chance to activate the next turn. I just want it dead. If it's down to one or two health and I have the AP to kill it, I'm playing seven points because that master is going to die.
01:05:19
Speaker
one hundred so 100%. So I'm kind of here to play eight points. I really don't want to play seven. It looks like absolute. Yeah, whatever. Why would I choose to only play seven? Yeah. Right. Like maybe I've read in hand or I had the past. It was a guarantee first activation next turn.
01:05:34
Speaker
But it's super unlikely that that happens. So I just because you flip black on the friggin initiative. Yeah. And then you're like, okay, that's great. Yeah. Because that's always the issue, right? Where you're like, Oh dude, I've got this game in the bag. I've got the past tokens. I've got this card in hand. It's going to go great. And then your two AP model goes was like, all right, cool. I got initiative. Let's go. And you're like, all right, cool. I flip black in my first attack, but I got two attacks. No problem. Opponent flips red. i up but go And then that master activates and you lose like two points off that activation. you're like come on ah goodness killed
01:06:06
Speaker
i can't stand yeah no totally fair um How about how about ah Brian as we're talking about schemes where we're asking tough questions and putting mental pressure on people. Are there any schemes that you just love or hate because they don't do that?
01:06:21
Speaker
No, not not particularly. I think that the idea is I try to like suss out the schemes that my opponents are going for in turn one, turn two, based on their actions. ah And then the goal is to immediately do what I can to make it hard for them to score those schemes. So if they drop a scheme marker, analyze, see what it could be for, and then and ten and intentionally tried to deny them that first point as long as possible. um So it's less about the individual schemes and more as trying to pick the right ones that they that they chose in order to deny them. Because I played the denial game from first activation. Yeah, that makes great sense. So cool.
01:07:12
Speaker
i Also, I'm going to hop on that for a sec. I have seen people do this. And so I think it's important to bring up ah of bluffing schemes that require the opponent's counterplay. ah So I've often seen people in a pool with ensnare look at like a a trash hand, be like, all right, cool. I got five high left right now. This you know fifth model I'm activating is not going to do anything. They'll often go to a place where it's near an enemy model and be like, all right, cool. I dropped a ski marker.
01:07:38
Speaker
at that point, because anytime you say the phrase, and I drop a ski marker, your opponent goes, oh, hey, hey, hey, you're trying to score points right now. What's happening? And so the look at it goes, what's he trying to score? um And so oftentimes, like within snare in the pool, the the opponent's entire positioning game changes around trying to deny you thats that that second ski marker for the for that point of ensnare. um And all it took was one AP off some model, and their entire game plan changes.
01:08:06
Speaker
yeah um So there there is value to even the schemes you don't pick um if you can if you can start baiting them. Or even if it is your strategy, it is your scheme, right? Forcing your opponent to completely change how they want to play the game um is really valuable. Because if they don't have like Trail of Gore or something like that, they either have to like get that model out of there or they have to like um try to get what gets you off of the scheme marker so they can pick it up. um Stuff like that. um And to to get to the end of all that and be like, yeah, so anyway, I score, outflank, I'm good to go. Like that. So frustrating. Which is a great way to ah throw them off their own game, kind of kill kill their spirit, so to speak, where it's like, all right, cool, I'm focused on that, not really focused on what you're actually doing. um It's a great way to throw your opponent off balance.
01:08:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Tough questions on, yeah, I can't activate the model that I want to activate next because I've got to get rid of this friggin scheme. And yeah, no, that's fantastic. So, all right. The, uh, we've, we've talked, uh, you know, almost to the point of it being a joke of, uh, as we're thinking about just initial thoughts on overall game plan. So you're sitting here, you're getting ready to play, you're getting ready to flip initiative and you're thinking, okay, how am I going to win this game? And, you know, it's easy to say, you know, kill first scheme later.
01:09:26
Speaker
And that's often true, especially for you, Andre. But is when is that not true? when a You haven't even flipped cards yet, but you're like, no, I probably need to scheme first. Has that ever happened? And if so, like tell me about that a little bit. Not having to kill first. Where where your priority is scheming you know instead of killing. you Right, right. well i think that ah There are matchups where you know, you're not going to win the fight. um Like I can recall a matchup ah that I played into our, one of our locals, Jonathan, ah when he was playing Hoffman too. I was like, there is no shot. And I was playing Nakeem at the time. I was like, there's no shot. I'm going to want to fight here. um So I'm just going to spread to that four wins.
01:10:13
Speaker
and try to score points and keep him as occupied as possible um to try and keep that going. So at that point, I actually will c seed board space. um Because oftentimes, what I usually do is try to take the center as quickly as I can, be like, all right, I'm on the center line, you got to come to me, and then we're going to fight.
01:10:31
Speaker
Uh, but I can't do that because so I'm going to lose the fight. I don't take the center line. Like my dogs will be like, all right, cool. What is the minimum distance necessary to move in order to get to 10.1 inches to right here. So I can drop that bomb on turn two at the end and score plan or whatever. Um,
01:10:48
Speaker
your your distance becomes your ally in those kinds of situations. And so for me, ah playing a slow roll turn one, it's agony. It sucks because it feels like you're like, all right, bud, here's my man card. I'm going to be my deployment zone to the end of the turn. Have fun.
01:11:03
Speaker
ah but you gotta make those decisions if you have to avoid the fight early um because you know there are crews that will win the fight against you. like No matter who you are, there's always gonna be somebody that is a bigger fish in that context. like Do I run from Hoffman? Yes. But does Hoffman run from McCabe? Yes. So there's always a kind of a checks and balances there. You have to like decide how that fight's probably gonna go and then decide how you actually wanna play it.
01:11:31
Speaker
Um, so I will say that while the scenario is rare, that I have to choose to avoid fights.
Avoiding Fights and Controlling Tempo
01:11:39
Speaker
When I do have to avoid the fight, the only thing I'm thinking about or my opponent's threat ranges. That's the the first thing at the top of the list. Like Melissa core sucks to have to play into that model. She's like, all right, cool. Uh, you know, if the top and one it's like, all right, I'm going to get fast. I'm going to go walk, walk, charge with another 12. Somebody's going to get reached out to and shot. Um, and.
01:11:59
Speaker
You kind of have to decide where you want to bait her attention into, like, oops, did I put that hound a little too far up? um And they're like, oh, yeah, perfect. um You know, because you can lose a dog and still be fine. And, you know, I'll get that dog back elsewhere or whatever, but she feels good. and You know, you ring the little dinner bell and she's like, I got to kill. ah And you keep that tempo going by playing back and defensive and like barely leaving something out as opposed to going into the kill.
01:12:26
Speaker
And that that is a great put. And it answers a question about like during gameplay when you you realize as you're going through a game and suddenly you're not the beat down, you thought you were going to be the beat down and now you're not, you know, so the the opponent is the beat down. You're like, what do I do? And it's, yeah, the answer and how to to deal with that is a question that I ah definitely plan for asking for later. So thank you for that.
01:12:48
Speaker
yeah So I want to hit a couple questions from Discord about kind of overall game plan from Azahul coming out of Australia and taking the time to ask us that ah essentially about when is killing a master the right approach? you know you' you You're facing a master that's tough. They have a ton of soul stones or maybe you know whatever. They have a fair number of soul stones.
01:13:16
Speaker
you sometimes that's worth it sometimes it's not it's three AP and it's key to their thing but yeah what what what makes you decide when to kill a master I don't know about Brian but I feel like I can play into Brian's strong suit here i mean also you answer on the killing part and the i turn the yeah what hear sort of you guys but yeah So for me ah I've noticed because it's true for me personally that I feel like the master is the protagonist of the crew And when the protagonist dies, that's such a bummer um so for me the
01:13:52
Speaker
Taking of the master is as much a morale breaker as it is actually affecting the game state um because there are plenty of great players that are able to play their master down and still pull out the game and win. But it's still hard to power through the, all right, cool. My coolest best piece is now off the table.
01:14:11
Speaker
do I still really want to play this game? um Because I've had several games against people where it's a real back and forth slog, but their master catches it to the face and dies and they go, ha I'm going to scoop. It's not worth it. ah And so if I think I can get a capitulation ah through a master kill, I will absolutely go for it. But there's ways to set it up, like because you're talking about a master with a healthy amount of cash in order to keep soul stones burning and keep them up.
01:14:39
Speaker
I will often go for models that are soulstone sinks first to get their cash emptied, ah to then be able to kill masters with maybe a little bit more defensive tech. ah Like a good example, I think ah would be like, um, well, actually it's kind of in reverse for me. If I can get ahold of Stook first, he's a better soulstone sink because he has no other reduction.
Resource Management and Morale Impact
01:15:03
Speaker
ah chair As long as you can keep declaring triggers. Um,
01:15:08
Speaker
So like for me, the, the emphasis, like anytime there's Bo Peep in a Bayou crew, she is absolutely going to get her face beat in as quickly as possible. Because once the soul stones run out for her, they run out for everyone. And she is soul stone hungry, trying to stay alive. Uh, because she's got defense five and a smile. And so you just keep beating her up. Um, and the ones that runs out and be like, all right, cool. Now that you're stoneless, I can totally just blow on my focus killing Wong here. Uh, and you have nothing you can really do to stop me at that point. Um,
01:15:35
Speaker
But yes, I would say most of the time, if I'm going for master kill, either they're like the star of the show, like Von Schill or something like that. Where it's like, yes, there are other models in there that are scary, but most of the time it's Von Schill scoring the points, killing the models that matter, that kind of thing with his target access and kit. Um, and if you can get that model off the table, that's great, but most of the time I'm going for capitulation. We're like morale breaks. They stop making good decisions. Uh, and at that point it's kind of, you know, playing with a guy, playing a guy with his arm time at his back, even just like in the mental game.
01:16:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with a lot a lot of those points. ah i' I have found that I need to do better as a player on using the master to break my opponent's morale in doing that. um Because I don't do it often enough. um yeah I'm more concerned about the other key pieces around the board that are scoring the points, unless like Audra was saying, Shill who's doing the point scoring or doing the killing, but there's a lot of games where I'll just load up the master with distracted or slow them down and just feed them nonsense while I go off and score my points. ah But it is something that I as a player need to do better on on trying to murder my opponent's master because of
01:16:50
Speaker
All my opponents do it to me. I mean, it's just it's crazy how fast my cash goes down. I can bring eight zones and I'm stone dead and on turn two um because my opponents all try to get to my master that way. It doesn't always work, but it is another level of pressure that is great to apply to your opponent. Well, I think it also really kind of comes down to when you're making the decision, am I investing the AP? Because let's be honest, it's a game about AP efficiency. And is it worth spending the actions to hunt down their master? I think a big question to ask is, what is their master doing for the rest of their crew?
01:17:37
Speaker
So I think one um like like something that ah Andre brought up earlier was that Seamus brings whatever the fuck he wants to the thing and then he runs around and does his own thing but he's not necessarily scoring the points. He's you know hey I pop up I murder something I disappear. Hey I pop up over here I murder something I don't disappear. He might not be a master to invest the AP to hunt down because the rest of his crew is going to do what his crew does without him. Whereas, say, um Titania 2,
01:18:17
Speaker
yeah you snip Titania II out of there, suddenly the rest of her crew is very, very neutered. Or um other crews that have that, hey, while this master is on the table, we all get this wonderful, awesome benefit we love.
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I would say like, you have to make sure you have the right tech to kill the enemy master. Because if you don't have, if you had the tech, let's say Shaymus as an example, if you're hitting him with a ruthless model that can also do some ping damage.
01:18:52
Speaker
you're going to have a bad time because this is terror 12 and that feats of fear ability is real awful when your investment is AP trying to kill them and then you just failed that last duel and is like, okay, well I'm back at five health. What are you going to do now? Like if you don't have the tech to force the kill, uh, it's okay to try to just neutralize them in a different way and remove other key pieces. For example, like the henchmen.
01:19:19
Speaker
A lot of henchmen are also lynchpins to the crew and pulling those models out are typically a lot easier ah for you to remove, in my opinion. This is an extremely interesting turn of the conversation because when you ask the question, I'm like always on the table. It's my number one thing. Like i I want to kill that master. The unfortunate part of the game is sometimes other things are in the way or I don't have the tech or I discover I don't have the tech, but that's always my number one aim is like,
01:19:49
Speaker
Can I kill this master turn too? Like when I build my lists or when I think about how to play them, I'm like, how do I directly go in for the King, like kill the King right now? Because it like Andre started off with it. I love that demoralizing play. Like because people make bad decisions after that because they think they've already lost the game and very few, there's a small percentage of players.
01:20:11
Speaker
that climb like will continue to climb like oh that sucks I myself will lose a key model and go like well this is gonna be a crappy loss like sometimes that just happens and I go for that like every crew I plays is usually trying to aim for like info down. I think I killed a guy with the whip. Make a turn to like top of turn two, or I think it might have been turn one. And like from then it was like downhill. Whenever I was trying to kill your Molly, it was like that was the whole aim the whole time things just kept getting in the way. Like, it's always like kill master, I guess this hinamatsu is important in in front of me. But if it wasn't, it would be killed master, you know, so
01:20:55
Speaker
It's always an interesting take. it's just That's just how I always want to go because they are, to me, like you said, the protagonist. You wouldn't be playing the crew without that master. like You brought them for a reason. Even if they don't synergize with the crew, they are there. They're always an important piece of the puzzle. So kill it as fast as you can. Everything else just is a speed bump.
01:21:18
Speaker
No, that's awesome. So how about other target priority? And this is whether it's as you're sitting looking at cards or or looking at models and you know that looks dangerous before the game or or during a game. How do you work target priority? What are you going for first, um for killing or for demoralizing?
01:21:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, I feel like it's it all depends on what tech these models bring to the table and how squishy they are. A good example is ah the totem for Dashal. That totem lets him draw cards from his executioners, it counts as a scheme marker, and it does a lot of cool things for him. If you can remove that model, turn one, you need to, because it will literally ruin this entire game plan.
01:22:06
Speaker
And there's a lot of pieces in your crews that do that. And if you can identify what those are and figure out how like how do I kill this model turn one at range, it's going to make a significant impact to the rest of the game.
01:22:19
Speaker
Um, like the example I gave of that I removed that Gwissen turn one and my opponent went, Oh God, I was counting on that to be my defensive tech of making sure I can take the hit on Karai. And now it's just gone. What do I do? I guess I can res- I can summon another one, but then it's a summon that just dies immediately to Vincent. So why would I bother, you know?
01:22:41
Speaker
So is that, you you just, yeah, you'll learn it young almost like you're saying earlier, Brian, you you know, I'll go for a model the first time I see it or, or you know, it's you just over time you learn it, you you get enough reps, you know what to do to for target priority. This goes to, I'm gonna i'm goingnna fast forward for this piece at least to what would you offer to a bottom tier player, you know, bottom third player ah for target priority, you know,
01:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, where do you even start? And especially when you're trying to kill, there's also a piece on, oh, I can kill it, but I'm gonna overextend this dude to do it, you know or probably gonna overextend this dude to do it. And so where do you find that? Yeah, I can kill Luna, but I'm gonna lose ah you know my best killer you know to do it. But how do I know if that's worth it? Just do some science, but run some games and lose and then figure it out?
01:23:40
Speaker
in my book for, for a bottom player on knowing when is a good time to kill and remove a model is does this score points or does this deny points? Okay. And yeah that that's the, that's the only question that matters is am I going to score or am I going to deny a score? And this may not be this turn. It might be later on. Like, let's say that, you know,
01:24:05
Speaker
Uh, you know, that's the deathbed second target. So you know, that's going to be the the point on turn five. So killing it does score you that point or will deny the point on turn five. So, um, for me, I think that there's always a matter of what do I think I can actually get done with the attacks that I have in play with the cards that I have in play.
01:24:29
Speaker
Um, so I'm going to give an example of like trying to dismantle my Perdita crew. Are you going to kill Frank? Almost never. Uh, but you can kill a Boila. Like she might have a shielded. She's otherwise five health, hard to wound and events for. Um, so for most people, like a Min Min on a mod or, you know, a Min Min three attack routine will kill a Boila pretty consistently. If you can get to her. Um,
01:24:52
Speaker
And it is always worth it to kill that model. Literally always. She is such an enabler. She makes other attacks, higher stats. She hands out free attacks. Absolutely powerful piece. Is there a direct correlation between dead of Puebla and lost points? It's a little too abstract to think about it in that way. But I think what you can do is at the end of the day, say my opponent hired this bottle for a reason. Do I think it's reason is done yet? If no, kill it. Um, because.
01:25:19
Speaker
Whatever the case may be for like how that your opponent's trying to get to a board state where he's scoring points Odds are that model
Targeting Key Models and Scoring Points
01:25:26
Speaker
is part of the plan. There are some things that are obvious, right? Like if you can kill botanists kill every botanist you ever see ever kill them in the streets kill them in the deployment zones kill them because botanists are only hired to score points. No one has ever sat down and said, you know what? I've got this sick ass plan where I'm going to table my opponent and botanists is the instrument of my will. That has never been said. They're only there to score points. So always kill botanists. It sounds like someone has a little hatred for botanists. Earl, Earl, it's the same exact thing in his head. Oh, yeah.
01:25:54
Speaker
Yeah, I have an irrational hatred for botanists, but it's the same thing with like, uh, what do they call it? The enslaved spirits, like enslaved spirits, wicked dolls, uh, corrupted hounds, none of those models. Yeah. Earl, none of those models are, I really hope to contribute to the fight. None of those models of that. They're only hired because they're trying to score points. Um, and so that's, those are really obvious examples, but then you can pan back to other models that are so worth killing that you should invest in doing it like Tannen.
01:26:21
Speaker
Like, uh, the scribe, like, uh, I would say, but yeah, seriously. Uh, uh, later, legia like Pearl, there's a lot of models that bring a huge value to the crew and are themselves not very difficult to kill.
01:26:38
Speaker
Um, so if you're ever, if you're, if you're ever in a situation where, I mean, I coded my scribe to be fair, but yeah if you're ever in a situation where you're like, I don't know where I'm going to throw a tax, I can either do, you know, probably four damage to Frank. If he doesn't stone anything, or I can just remove a boiler from play. Kill a boil every time, even if you're not sure what my plan is, even if Frank is the guy who's got deliver a message and he's going to go score it on your mat, kill a boil.
01:27:06
Speaker
Uh, the amount of value that your opponent gets out of those models. Like I said, give your opponent the credit of having hired each model with purpose. Like even if Ryan is showing up and his, his entire.
01:27:18
Speaker
code routine as the top line is kill master at all costs. He still hired the Watchers for a reason, right? Like whether they're power transferring the PK at the board or trying to get coordinated attack off on their melee attack, whatever the case may be, the Watchers are still there for a reason. ah And you can either beat on a stone using PK or just like deal five damage to a Watcher and you got yourself a kill.
01:27:40
Speaker
Stop telling people that. beat me It's the worst part about these ah this podcast is because I'm like, hey, man, here's how I play the game. Here's how you beat me every every freaking time I'm here. Yeah, because he's right. I use that as the distraction, the scrum and then the watchers no score. Yeah, like they just do their own thing because they're like, oh, they're not important. It's like they're. flights like they're pretty fast. Well, I think it comes down to there. The qua the question sometimes you want to ask is, is it time to be a brawler or is it time to be a bully? Because like you were saying, there's those models that, you know, have huge impact on the game. But if you look at them sideways, they fall apart. And sometimes, you know, those are the models where
01:28:31
Speaker
You don't think to go after them. Like, there's a PK in your face. You're not thinking of going after Grandma. But Grandma is going to suddenly lower the efficacy of everyone else when she's dead. No, no, no. Grandma is going to let a stunned Frank take... Right, that's what I'm saying. But you kill Grandma.
01:29:01
Speaker
yeah You kill grandma and suddenly there's just this huge, did did it remove the big threat? No, but it made, it really hurt their game plan. Yes. Which is why, like I said, the the core concept is if you know you can make a kill, take it. Because no piece is completely useless to your opponent's game plan.
01:29:23
Speaker
um whatever the case may be, whatever they're, you know, even if they're trying to bluff you out or something. Like if you never have to deal with getting bluffed out by a model just dropping a ski marker in the center of a fight, ah that's still value. um So, and I'm not saying never go after big pieces. Obviously, if you're, you know, playing Leviticus and you're like, man, I can't waste to use this stack of crows in my hand to delete a PK from whatever, cool, do that. But for the most part, ah people can't just remove PKs casually from the table.
01:29:50
Speaker
um And so make the kills that you think you can take to gain an advantage. I mean, could you go for a rook or a knight? Yeah, sure. But if you can take the pawn safely, just take it. Just take it. Great puts. um We had a question from Takoa. And and it's one of those where it's very hard to say, but we're going to ask it anyways. And it's, how do you actually move up in an aggressive manner without overextending and get okay How do you get ready to kill models without getting killed
Understanding Threat Ranges and Decision-Making
01:30:23
Speaker
yourself? you know it's ah Do you just do it enough and you get smacked enough and eventually you're like, ah, maybe I'll maybe i'll learn the threat range? or Or is it more than that? you know what what What kind of things? And again, particularly Ayman at our bottom third players here. Hard eye contact.
01:30:40
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. No, I would say that the question that lower third players never ask and it always bites them. And I always see high players ask and it absolutely dot dominates the game is if you get to a point in the game and your opponent goes, do you have any other ways to move that model?
01:30:56
Speaker
And you have to go, well, uh, I'm going to have this trick or nope, everyone who could move in this round is tapped. Um, they are assessing your threat range. They're going, okay, Frank, he has Nephilim hunter right now and he can take two attacks at range 13. So if I stay at 13.1 with my 14 inch range guns, I'm safe. Um,
01:31:15
Speaker
And those are the kinds of questions that make the difference between a calculated move up the board and an overextension that costs you models. So I know it's hard for bottom third players because there's like 760 different miniatures in this game. And memorizing all of them is a huge pain in the tookus. But even for just specific games, you can literally just ask your opponent, is there any other way for you to move that model? What is his walk? What is his melee range?
01:31:40
Speaker
um a night charge yeah does he or And does he have any bonus action moves? Things like that. Rush. Yeah, exactly. ah Because it is an open plate is an ah open information game. You're allowed to ask those questions. Be like, is there any other way for you to move him up the board? And what is his current threat range? Those are the questions that high level players ask and that lower level players do not. Because when I move a model up the board,
01:32:03
Speaker
Um, and my opponent goes, Oh man, you know, that mature looks pretty scary, but he's all the way over there. Uh, and then at the end of the activation, I killed a model 20 inches away. It was like, man, I didn't really think about how far that model can reach. Um, yeah, but actually, I'll give a good example of this that Andre and I just played, um, uh, of a game with his Lucius. Um,
01:32:24
Speaker
I wanted to see, I was messing with a Seamus 2, no it was Rev. 1 with Ryder, and I ran Ryder up the flank into his Lucious 1, and I didn't assess the threat range on Lucius's ah jury summons. Is that the trigger? The summons? ah Yeah, summons is the trigger um and subpoena is the attack action. Yeah, so here I didn't assess the ah movement tricks he had of being able to hit me through a model, teleporting the rider into the middle of his crew and then beating on it.
01:33:02
Speaker
with a agent 46 that started, I think it was 18 inches away from that final location. ah And he just beat the writer to death turn one because I did not assess the level of threat that he had with Lucius one. um And now I'm a hands on learner. I now know a lot made the same mistake again. and um But you have to ask his questions because that's if you don't know those ranges and you don't You don't plan for that. You're going to overextend to get caught every time. Yeah. And I can even get an example in like a game that I also like, you can go watch the semi-finals game online. It was me versus a Grog dog on on your one. The reason, one of the biggest reasons I'll say that I lost that game is because I measured out the range, the threat range for on your one, where she could teleport a base contact with a ski marker, walk charge. I did the math on that. I was like, all right, cool. I can get to right here and be fine. And then I took all that down and moved Perdita up.
01:33:59
Speaker
And then later on when he took his turn, I realized then that I had moved into his threat range that I had already measured out to try to avoid. Uh, and that cost me basically the game. Um, that extra attack from Anya made her stunned. And there was just like a whole avalanche of crap that happened after that, that if I had just stayed literally a half an inch, half an inch cost me a unstunned master activation. Um, and I even knew to measure for it. I just didn't make sure that I was there.
01:34:26
Speaker
um So, measuring threat ranges is absolutely the mark of a good player and if you don't know what they are, you can always ask your opponent. um to and Just as ah as a, maybe in a PS to this for, you know, and again I'm representing the bottom third players there's like, ask, like, I'm not, if I ask you about a threat range of a thing, you're I'm not like giving anything away. right like You've already thought about what my models are going to be doing. right you know like If you're playing uphill, don't worry about it. If you're playing somebody at the same level, then like ask and it's fine and you'll both learn and from each other. and if you're If you're playing uphill, like it's okay to give away that I'm thinking about moving a model over this way. It's really okay. so
01:35:13
Speaker
Yeah, ask, ask, ask, just great advice. And it is cool. So thank you. um Okay, so this is, this is a really good question ah came from Pope DARPA.
Using Resources for Guaranteed Kills
01:35:26
Speaker
ah And it's about the specific thing of trying to guarantee a kill. And ah I'll just read it out. It's my favorite question, and that he asks himself this a lot. You need a trigger to kill a model, um and you've got an 11 of that suit. Do you stone for the trigger? um Or if you've got a 13 or what, at what point do you stone and not? And this kind of talks to a larger thing of,
01:35:51
Speaker
the cards in your hand and the stones that you have and how you try to guarantee kills and all of the card management stuff that we've talked about you with as as well, Brian. and so yeah Thoughts on this kind of scenario? when do you what What do you do to guarantee a kill is maybe the broader question. Every situation is going to be different in my mind.
01:36:12
Speaker
but My, if you're trying to get a kill, nothing sucks worse than not doing what you should have been going, oh my god, if I just would have thrown that stone, I would have hit this. um I always go for the safe play, and maybe that's why I burn out my stones very quickly. But the safe play to guarantee the kill should be taken 90% of the time, and in my mind. because it You don't want to not stone ah when you have the 11 of masks in hand and you have a 13. And you go, aha, here's my 11 of masks. And it probably goes, nope, here's a 13. Get screwed, kid. you know um You should always do what you can to guarantee it in my mind.
01:37:01
Speaker
I agree because the, the going rate for like the exchange rate on soul stones is you can think of it as two damage off of an attack for one of your favorite models. Is this worth more or less than two damage off of an attack from my master? Um, cause you know that that's about the average of what you'll stone off if you're getting hit. Um, and for me, it's a no brainer if it's like, all right, cool. This extra crit strike is going to be the difference between, um, you know, this model getting to activate and not, if I can land this attack, absolutely stone for it. Every time there is no world in which.
01:37:31
Speaker
A model being able to activate on turns three, four, and five is not worth you spending one soul stone right now. There's just not. um because the the the downrange value of models is just always good. That's why summoners are so good because you can sit down and be like, all right, cool. I have this high card and I need a suit. Do I stone to have an executioner for the rest of the game? Hmm. Like no one ever thinks that. um So you're always going to stone for it. And if you can always stone and if you can stone for it to get a model off the table instead,
01:38:04
Speaker
go for it. And especially if you can't guarantee it without the use of the stone. Like if you have an 11 of the proper suit, a 13 of not the proper suit, stone for it. And beyond that, you might even get to a point and there's two two extra like kind of metafactors here. ah The first one is that you could just top deck a king and they're like, all right, Ty, I didn't even have to spend my king. I just don't for it. Got the number off the top that I needed. And then I'm good. The other op the other possibility here is that your opponent goes,
01:38:31
Speaker
All right. I flipped a seven. He flipped an eight, but he stoned for it. There is zero shot. This dude just threw a stone hoping to swing for the bleachers. If he needs this model dead, he's got that King in hand. I'm not going to just trade face cards with him. I need these cards elsewhere to guarantee other things. Uh, oftentimes stoning will save you the card because your opponent's just going to go, ah, I'm not going to invest. Uh, cause you've clearly got whatever you need to pay for this kill.
01:38:59
Speaker
Yep, and also their hand is if their hand is bad, then you can just top deck it naturally anyway and just get it. So like, in my mind, you should always stone if it's guaranteed a kill. Always, always, always. And there's there's the simple fact that spending a stone for a suit is the most likely way to draw that particular suit to the top of your deck.
01:39:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Because if you did not spend that stone, you wouldn't have top decked it. It would have been a completely different card. Which is even better when it's crit strike because it is plus two.
01:39:36
Speaker
Truth, truth. so All right, um I have got about a million more questions, but ah our listeners have put up with us this far, and so they probably don't want to hear this. If if if listeners do, give us the feedback, and we'll do another special like episode of Killing More, because dang it, this is Texas, and when we talk about the Texas meta, we are we are up for more killing, believe you me.
Strategic Advice for Different Skill Levels
01:40:01
Speaker
But what I would like to hear is and and just one single tip for either a top third, a middle third, or a bottom third player. What is the biggest, when you either think about killing, preventing them from killing us, or ah just demoralizing an opponent, giving them tough decisions, ah what's your biggest tip that you can give to a listener, no matter what tier they're in? Andre, put you on the spot.
01:40:31
Speaker
Uh, this is real crank lever received banana, but it absolutely gets people every time. Read the card. Okay. The card. I know. Well, so hear, hear me out.
01:40:47
Speaker
ah but Sometimes models look scary and aren't. And sometimes models don't look scary and will rip you in half. And you don't really know what the difference is between those two. Well, a lot of times it's like, all right, cool. There is two Perditas. That's cool. I wonder what each of them do. And you never look at any further into that.
01:41:08
Speaker
uh silver bullets will end your whole career if you're like all right cool i'm a demise guy or you know i've got this blowtorch with this plus one heal trigger i'm just going to be able to windmill slam nine health into something and you go all right cool click uh you can't heal for the rest of the turn like all right cool so i just die um and if you could have avoided getting into that situation if you had simply the game knowledge to know that that was going to be an option for them um so i can't i can't count the number of times where people were like, oh, I didn't realize that was severe six, or oh, damn, crit strike again, or whatever the case may be, or like, I didn't know he could bake ensues, or whatever. um All of that comes down to, I had no idea what that guy did, and then I died. And that is literally the most preventable death I could think of. If you literally could just know what your opponent's stuff does, and then not play into that problem, it will save you heartache in the long run. So even if it takes you time off the clock,
01:42:01
Speaker
Just to be like, all right, hold up. Before I go attack that Mexican dude with a sword, at that Mexican dude with a sword, which Mexican dude with the swords would I be worried about? It's that guy. ah Because you know the gulf between pistol arrow with a sword out and Frank is night and day. So when in doubt, read the card. yeah That is really, really good. What what do you got, Brian?
01:42:27
Speaker
Uh, so mine's not as like in depth as reading the cards. That's so core to this game. Um, I think that the biggest thing I see a lot is I think people over tech and over specialize their crews.
01:42:43
Speaker
And I think simplifying and focusing on your game plan ah and building your synergies is going to go much further way much further in controlling the game and killing and causing issues for your opponent than just trying to bring every single bit of counter-attack under the sun into your crew. um I've seen some people Oh my God. ah I've seen some people where half their stones go into counter-tech and then it doesn't seem to work out or it's too much or they can't score because of it. And I think if people just simplify their crews and focus on what that crew is good at with maybe a piece here or a piece there, it's perfectly fine. I think people go too deep into teching, personally.
01:43:35
Speaker
So that is great, great, great, great tips. um We got, and and again, I would love to ask more questions, but we can only get so much. First of all, um we did have questions coming out of the Discord. As usual, um we get fantastic normal questions from Dice Man, but we also get the fun ones and it's become a habit of us, of ours to close with it.
Fun Discussion: Game Abilities in Real Life
01:43:57
Speaker
ah You can choose one defensive ability in the game to gain in real life. What do you choose and why? Andre, put you on the spot.
01:44:06
Speaker
Uh, Caporial, not even a question. but Okay. You personally get in Caporial. Okay. Rock on. So being able to walk through walls, that sounds so cool. You're already instantly a better electrician just by being in Caporial. You don't have to worry about, uh, you know, like running wires through house, having to dig through all that, literally not a problem. Uh, so for me, it's in Caporial all the way. That is awesome. What do you got, Brian?
01:44:32
Speaker
It literally was that was I was going to say. Oh, I should ask you first. OK. All right. No, no, it was fine because I've got to back up and I'd probably take flame born because then I could just be the fire fighter and just go take care of burning shit. It'd be great.
01:44:48
Speaker
Cause no damage. It's all the zero. You just, you're a firefighter. Don't need any gear. You just walk into burning fires to save people. That sounds cool. That would be pretty cool. I know what I choose. I will choose one from, you know, my sister from another mister in Malifaux, Serena Bowman, Demise Eternal. That's actually a great choice. Yeah, I thought about that. That's a pretty good one.
01:45:15
Speaker
I just pitch a card, I'll just carry around a pocket full of cards. Right, but but so the problem is you have to get into the pieces of, um it's once per turn. No, yeah, it's once per turn. So when does it turn in real life? Is it once a year? Is it once a month? Well, once a day is way too overpowered. that's a day A day is like, that's the turn. There you go. turn his no Every time you turn around.
01:45:41
Speaker
right how am i spinning you're amor I thought I was going to die yesterday. I got trapped on an elevator. Look, Doug, if someone shoots you in the head in real life and you're like, aha, I picked your card. I'm back to life. They go, okay, blam.
01:45:57
Speaker
like just yeah ah ah No, no, no, but I feel.
01:46:05
Speaker
is she me on I don't put myself in situations where someone's just going to shoot me with a gun. why on I I do think about that. like I mean, I'm going to die to like, you know, an elevator or some shit. I mean, you can't you can't tell me as like, you know, an aggravated assault robber coming into your house. Oh, right. I'm willing to kill for my money. And you go, ah and that dude goes, oh, that was wild. Like if there's no shot. You're just like, oh i see no problems with this oh so like if that's me i just unload the clip to see what happens like okay if someone's you know shoots me in the head and i demise eternal i'm not going to pop up right away i'm just going to play dead and then they'll leave me
01:46:54
Speaker
I did think about that because you could do the ultimate, like the ultimate sports, like jumping out of planes with the parachutes and stuff. And you just go a spot on the ground and go, ha ha, I'm alive. Here's a card.
01:47:07
Speaker
You get, you get like 52, uh, you know, you got to go get another deck of cards after a while, but like as long as you got cards, you're okay. you Oh my goodness. So, okay, Ryan, what were you going with?
01:47:19
Speaker
Well, I mean, I was going to go with Inquivorial for the whole walking through walls thing, but I guess... All the cool people are saying Inquivorial. The only other thing I could think of is manipulative, but then it's like, you can just do that now, you know? Just stand real still. Hey, don't bother me, all right? I'm not going to activate, yeah. I mean, you could just do Ghost of Malifaux, it's the same thing, but slightly different.
01:47:43
Speaker
terrecon Yeah, serene continents. To me, that applies like a constant, like a little extra layer of like, best shown in hotness and beauty that goes along with it, like serene continents. Cool, I'm a mermaid.
01:47:56
Speaker
yeah exactly
01:47:59
Speaker
Sweet. Okay, I have to say, I was thinking, Brian that you were going to go forever doomed to where it's just like, so off the front of the hang where treating black jokers as red jokers. And so like anytime, anything bad, like absolutely no shit, hideous happens to you. You're just like, Oh, this is the best thing ever. You know, just domino. Yeah. Just like flips right around. And sorry, I have that power. I'm pretty lucky guy as it is. So anyways, I was going to be such a shit show because I just said that.
01:48:34
Speaker
It is true. So anyways, well, i hope I hope I hope that that you end up with nothing but red jokers tomorrow. So, oh, my goodness. So everybody, I got to wrap this up. But before we go, any plugs from the guests? What do you guys got? Nothing much for me. Long may the God Empress reign. I'm in a good spot. ah Yeah, nothing for me. All right. I've got one quick plug. um I announced it last, ah you know,
01:49:02
Speaker
episode and I'm going to, you know, be banging this drum from now until, you know, next October. But we have officially announced the dates for the Lone Star Fodown 2025, October 24th through the 26th, 2025. That's going to be, uh, instead of being early October, like it was the past ah three years, it's going to be late October as per the request of a handful of people. And I think it'll work out really great. So mark the calendars now.
01:49:32
Speaker
Details are gonna be coming soon. um I'm fairly certain that everyone who's here in you know the podcast now will probably be there. you You're all some of my favorite people. Come see if you can take my hat.
01:49:49
Speaker
Check out Ryan's things though. Subpar Ninja, go check him out. If you ever want to feel really bad about yourself but witness beauty at the same time, go check out Subpar Ninja on YouTube. And that's just his face.
01:50:05
Speaker
Whoo! Listen, guys, thanks so much for being with us. Thanks to all the listeners that have hung with us for this whole period. um Really, really appreciated this um great opportunity to to talk about just kind of what makes the Texas meta so special. um The ability to kill like Mad Men and then just like share the knowledge with each other and kind of kick back afterwards and be like, hey, here's how we level up.
01:50:28
Speaker
And so to you guys both personally, um Andre and and Brian, you have both helped level me up, not just in this show, but in general. ah Playing me, kicking in my face, and then sitting around giving me tips afterwards. And so thank you, and thanks for this episode. And we will catch you and our listeners later. Thank you all, and farewell. Now get out there and kill, kill, kill. Woo-hoo!
01:50:52
Speaker
that was for you brian thank you students of conflict is brought to you by topdug design check out topdogdesign dot com for all of your malfo terrain need
01:51:09
Speaker
All intellectual property belonging to weird miniatures is used with permission. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of entities they represent. Any content provided by our guests and or hosts are their opinion and not intended to align any group, club, organization, company, individual, or anyone or anything.
01:51:51
Speaker
Remember, I can just go bloop bloop and switch the order of things around. Please stop the recording, Doug. For the love of God, stop the recording.