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Fallout Boys
44 Plays1 year ago
Join Dave and Jake as they talk about the Fallout show, the flaws, things they got right, and even more in this week's episode!
Intro:
- Vampire Survivors - Battle in the Jungle (VS Version)
Outro:
- DuckTales - The Moon Theme (Alternative Mix)
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Updates
00:00:49
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake and I'm joined by my co-host is always Dave. How's it going today, Dave? It's going pretty good. Now you're doing. I'm doing all right. and do it No, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I had a week of PTO. My sleep schedule got super messed up and I am in recovery, but it was it was fun. It was good. Take a little break. Nice. Glad to hear. Yeah. Um, and I'm just going to do it again when shadow of the earth tree drops. So we're gonna, we're gonna wrap back to that. That's the, that's the one advantage to, I don't know. We don't talk about work here, but it's the advantage to working at location. I'm at for as long as I have is I am capped out. So like, I do not get more time off. I have to be the CEO, I think to potentially get more
Video Game Adaptations Discussion
00:01:41
Speaker
PTO. And you know what? He probably gets bothered on his PTO work in ways I don't. So.
00:01:46
Speaker
Hey, I know you're awful, but yeah. I haven't taken time off yet for it. um I'll probably at least take some time, but it works been kind of slow as molasses. It might not disrupt your your gaming schedule as much. You're not expected to like work late as much and stuff like that. Yeah, that's fair. Um, but I didn't, didn't want to start a segue to shadows of the urge tree. Cause we're going to get, we'll get there. It'll have it's, it's time in the shadow. Um, but of the year tree. Yeah. Uh, what are we talking about today?
00:02:28
Speaker
ti um So we've discussed this a little bit over the course probably have an episode on it ah Related to gaming if everybody remembers a a fallout TV show came out. It's sure it's weird and I watched it Jake watching a bunch of other people watched it We have some opinions about it again ah Jake has followed a fallout and the games and has played them and I am an outsider. So essentially, yeah I'm a Fallout boy.
00:03:03
Speaker
So yeah, I will, I still think my opinions are valid. um but If there are certain connections to the game, I definitely won't be able to shed as much light on that. Yeah. Yeah. I can shed light on that. That's fine. um ill'll I'll be critiquing it from the the original lore perspective. You can be critiquing it from it's like, this TV show is bad perspective. You know, like, that I'm just kidding. But I mean, that will probably be a good synopsis of my my take on it.
00:03:39
Speaker
I mean, so I guess overall, I know starting with the summary and then working backwards, right? We're doing this like essay format. and Do you think that it was good TV? Like, or, or, or was it poor TV? Cause video game shows and media in general, generally, I don't know if people realize this, they really suck at being adapted into a TV show like format, right? Crazy.
Fallout TV Show Critique
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah. Hot take. If people like video game movies, a lot of times it's because it's campy, not necessarily because it's good. There are exceptions, right? Nintendo, I know, is trying to swap things around, but like there's more bad than good, I would say. Do you think that's fair or nah? Yeah. I mean, if you look back at something like the Super Mario Brothers movie being an early example,
00:04:32
Speaker
of where there the ball was dropped. Double ba bomb. um Yeah. It just, it doesn't match up to, like, here's the video game. Now granted with that, Mario didn't really have lore to go off of as much. They're like, they needed to really fill in the gaps. But something that has an existing story like Fallout, um I don't even know what else they did. There was a Monster Hunter movie that nobody talks about. Yeah, I forgot about that one, actually. Yeah, it's just a lot of Resident Evil also. Oh, yeah. your finger up Yeah. Again, I'm not a Resident Evil player, but I heard it didn't do so good. If we're talking about the classics, I think there's also an Angry Birds movie, if I remember correctly. I don't know how that one did. I have to imagine it's like essentially a kids movie. I don't know. Yeah.
00:05:29
Speaker
But yeah, it's just when you take something is like made for a very specific purpose. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to generalize this for a wider audience so more people will go see it. You'll lose a lot. You do. Yeah. I do think a counterpoint was the last of us TV show because it was pretty spot on. um And they actually flesh out characters and have people making choices based off of how their character is and stuff. right And it felt like a good show and it felt like, ah, this is the story of the game. right it it it could be It seems like they're taking what you saw in the game and then extrapolating based off that and being like, okay, well,
00:06:11
Speaker
You did this in the game, but behind the scenes, this is what the characters were talking about. This is what they were doing in their day-to-day, right? um But it feels like it's more of that same continuity, which is good, and which is really good. and um we'll see We'll see how Fallout holds up to that. Because I have i have mixed takes on maintaining continuity in in the Fallout show. but um There are also two Mortal Kombat movies. Just remind everybody. That's true. They definitely fall under campy.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah. And you got street fighter in there too. And there is a, there, there's just a lot of old camp. Basically it falls into either like the sort of, we put a lot of effort into it and send them like from, uh, cinema talk, cinemagraphic, cinemataphically perspective. It's an accomplishment or it's just like eighties camp where it was just like make them pose. Like it's the arcade. Um, oh But yeah, how did you feel about the, the opening for fallout? I liked it. Uh, it definitely felt like kind of like HBO tier. I'm like, Oh, you know, they're putting some time and budget into this and like setting the scene of stuff. Um, cause I think it literally starts out with Cooper Howard, like at a birthday party.
00:07:38
Speaker
yes yeah um this is like before the bomb drops and you're like okay like I don't know who this is exactly when this is but like I understand what's happening and then they do the time skip as far as like hey remember that bomb thing he's been happening since and it goes into sort of characters and they kind of gave each character some time in the sun to be like, this is who this is, this is some other background. So like the whole first episode kind of felt like that, where it introduced all of like the main protagonists. Yeah. And the way they did it felt good. Yes. Maybe it was a little campy. That's fine. um But it it matched for the characters, I would say.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, they have like, the the important thing for me is each character got a hook, right? I think of this from like a world building or a quest like perspective. You expect characters, the best characters want something. They're not just, that it's not that they are something, it's that they want something. For an example, I'm gonna use D and&D as an example. A boring character is a character who is good. A more interesting character is a character who does good because they want this. right like They have some motivation to them, and each of these characters, like Lucy,
00:09:06
Speaker
um uh in the in the vault in the future uh has you know this this trauma of the attack with the raiders and stuff and her standout moment is like she kind of just bounces back super fast to this right there's definitely a branching character where it's just like they could have gone really leaned into tragedy with everything that happened to her or her family at the vault And instead she's just like, no, I'm just going to fix it. No, it's the not I'd win type a meme or whatever, where she's just like, at least I had sex. All right, now let's go rescue dad. And it's just it's just really ah it's it's a cool character direction. I think she's she's an excellent character. I think she's one of my favorite characters in the show.
00:09:57
Speaker
um I'm not as strong on a Maximus' start. What? Yeah. What? I know there's sarcasm in that. Nobody likes him. But yeah, I mean, Maximus has the upper. He could have been a character that was a little bit more sympathetic, but unfortunately, like he doesn't get that. His motivation seems kind of hollow. It's a little bit weak. They didn't. Yeah, it's just, I mean, the way they conveyed it is, so for everybody who hasn't seen it, why are you listening to this episode at first? Yeah, or we gave you time. Plenty of time. But basically he's in, or he's working with ah the Brotherhood of Steel, but he's a peon. He's literally just like cleaning toilets. Yeah.
00:10:48
Speaker
um And then like some people are like being promoted to go go up and do other things. And he just is really frustrated being like, oh, I'm just like a shit cleaner, right? And so his whole thing is like, I want to be angry and break this toilet seat in half. I'm like, oh my god, he's fed up with a situation, I guess. ah um
00:11:10
Speaker
But yeah, like there's not enough stuff about who he is or why he's motivated. yes They just kept cutting to flashbacks of like, Hey, remember when you were young and like your town was destroyed? who And then you got like picked up by the Brotherhood of Steel? They show that clip so many fucking times. yeah I didn't count, but it had to be at least 10 throughout the the show. yeah I think it's because they they really, I think what they were trying to convey is this is somebody who like worships authority and worships power to a certain extent. Yeah. And he he he strives for it. But the issue is it's not really justified why that matters at all to his character. Right. Like, yeah, like the argument. He wants to be a squire, then he wants to be a knight. But what does he really want? Right. There's no end goal for that.
00:12:07
Speaker
I, my interpretation loosely and to your point, they don't really go over it that well in a show, I think, but he wants power to control his situation or the ability to change something about his life. Cause it's very much, he's kind of along for the ride with whatever life gives him. And he's like, I don't want that. I want to be able to make my own choices, uh, go out and do things. And. have the power to do so. Yeah, I think maybe that maybe the part with his character, and this touches, this goes into more of the other episodes, is it doesn't feel like he's fully self-actualized as far as his own goals, right? It feels kind of like the the leaf on the wind sort of thing, where his his goals and whims are literally just influenced by the people around him. And in the few times that he shows a lot of initiative, there's even like,
00:13:06
Speaker
oftentimes like malice associated with it, such as taking the armor from the dead knight or letting the knight die because ah the knight threatens him, um which happens, you know, pretty early. But it's like, it makes his character, he's not a good guy, which he doesn't have to be. You can have interesting bad guys, but he's not a good guy and he's not that interesting plot wise. He's a helper, he's a support character. He would be a companion in the game, not the protagonist. He kind of just is there. No, no. I don't want to contrast this to, I want to forget the name, ah but the main character, one of the main characters in Code Geass, who's not Lelouch, this is Aku. Right. His whole thing is like trying to change the system from the inside. Yes. So like he wants to work within the the boundaries of the law, et ceterat cetera, et cetera.
00:14:05
Speaker
um I'm going to tear the whole fucking thing down. Yes. um I have the power. But his thing is interesting because he is so convicted as as far as I'm doing it this way. I refuse to even accept your viewpoint of just tearing down the whole system. it's We need to correct it from the inside over time. Exactly. We don't need to have a bloodshed. We just need to work on it. But he's an interesting character because he's driven to do so. right and Part of it is out of guilt for killing his dad. Because I believe his dad did not want to surrender. And he wanted to, as Japan, keep fighting Britannia.
00:14:54
Speaker
um
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah, like he has layers and things going on. Whereas Maximus is just kind of, I don't want to be cleaning shit out of a toilet. yeah yeah He's very reactive yeah as a character. right like He doesn't plan anything out. The first time
Character Development in Fallout Show
00:15:14
Speaker
they call him, they're like, hey, what happened to Knight so-and-so? He's like, oh, yeah. um o yeah he he he He says he doesn't. It's man. okay I'm thinking about that interrogation scene.
00:15:30
Speaker
It's not, he has a couple moments where he kind of stands out, but it's basically because like his pursuit, they, they, they they show that his pursuit is basically power, which is what like ingrains him to the elder. Cause the elder is just like, I can use that. Right. Like you're not driven by morality. Um, I can use you as a tool. Um, but. he doesn't like I don't know there's not enough scenes where they lean into that he he could have been a good evil character that's the thing ah and or maybe ambiguously evil or something like that but instead he's kind of this his motivations start to align with Lucy's by the end just because he's interested in her and all that jazz
00:16:16
Speaker
but like it would have been a much more interesting culmination or like show if his worldview absolutely conflicted with hers and they could not mesh, but they were still interested in each other or something like that, right? Like the good guy and the bad guy fall in love, whatever. um There's different, more interesting ways to take it. And yeah, we're kind of just digging on Maximus at this point, but unfortunately like his character, his character could have seen a lot of improvement. um Or he could have just been a little bit less involved and he could have just been ah more of a statue of a character that other characters needed to push up against for development. Yeah, he doesn't really have character growth. Yeah.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah, he has his moments, but they're unfortunately pretty few and far between. And the the ghoul and Lucy have more interesting ones. So we haven't talked about the ghoul yet. How did you ah feel about ah the ghoul's introduction scene? It's good. um Because again, like if you're coming in without knowing anything about Fallout, it's still just a fun, Hey, we're going to dig up this guy and see if he'll work with us now. Uh, and he's like, yeah, I'm actually a super sentient ghoul. I'm not running around being crazy. Um, which they kind of try and check with like giving him a chicken, like, oh, ghouls will just eat chickens randomly.
00:17:48
Speaker
Uh-huh. Yeah. I did like that. A little bit of folklore in there. Yeah. And then he just kind of like kills those people and leaves. He's like, all right, thank you for freeing me from being here. I'm going to go back to doing my own thing. um So you know he's definitely outside the law. he's a I'd say gray morality as far as like I'm going to do whatever I need to do. That works for me. Yeah. um like He's not specifically malicious, but if he needs to do something untoward ah to get those ends, he will do so without really blinking an eye. bra And part of the exchange with like him and Lucy is he wants to trade her in to get more vials of
00:18:39
Speaker
anti yeah it's I wish I could explain that a little bit more but that's not really in the game so it's basically something that keeping him sensei insane yeah yeah
00:18:55
Speaker
Yeah, they they they they had some divergence as far as how ghoulishness or or or the nature of ghouls works compared to the games. And I don't agree with it. There's one particular scene where someone is ghoulified by you know taking this medicine or whatever, this vial. um But the game to its, I guess, kind of to their credit or their own defense, the game never like went into a whole bunch of detail about how people became ghouls. It was usually just in the case of ah extreme exposure to radiation, which normally would kill them, a subset of people instead transformed into ghouls.
00:19:39
Speaker
That's pretty much it. Yeah. Um, so they didn't really, I guess they didn't really feel like using that as a plot device as much. So magic medicine that immediately turns you into a ghoul and now you can like lose limbs and jazz like that and not feel pain or not die or whatever. That's just the way it works. Fine. Whatever. I guess it bothers me a little bit, not a lot. Um,
00:20:04
Speaker
So, the and I think for him, him specifically the pursuit of the medicine so that he can kind of like keep his mind while chasing his own goals, which I will admit don't necessarily make sense. Um, it's fine. It's a support plot device. Uh, we should spoil it because people you've watched the
Vault Storyline and Politics
00:20:29
Speaker
show. If you're here, like the ghoul is Cooper from the opening scene. Yes. um Which like they reveal it towards the end officially.
00:20:44
Speaker
um But like if you're paying attention at all, you're like, that's the same guy. Yeah, it's the same actor, right? Yeah. like They just keep having these flashback moments from like, that's the guy. there's No question, right? Uh-huh. like It's really weird how this guy has a story in the past and no representation at all in 2077. um but 2077 is when the bombs fell. We don't know, I think, exactly what the year is. and the if i have the edit ah put in the
00:21:15
Speaker
Put it on, put it on. From like the Cyberpunk edits. It is funny that they kind of picked the same year for that, but it was established in Fallout your lore that the bombs fell in 2077, well before any of the, any of the Cyberpunk stuff. So take from that what you will, obviously hacks at CD Projekt Red, but yeah. um I will say, sadly, I think for the whole show, the most interesting part is in the vault. Because that's the one that has, it's like, it starts off with like, hey, this is like kind of like the perfect little life 1950s esque. Yeah, it's just things are fun and laid back and happy-go-lucky. And then the rate attack happens, they're like,
00:22:02
Speaker
That sucks. And it kind of opens some questions of, how did this happen? Who's this person? Who are the people who are like living outside? yeah Because their whole world is, hey, our goal is to help repopulate ah the human race once it's OK to go back to the surface. yes And basically, that says, like hey, people are already on the surface, right? um So the whole intrigue is like, as a viewer who has not played Fallout, it's, hey, what's actually going on? yeah Because it adds a lot of mystery as you're going. Because certain things just don't fully line up. There are some other vaults.
00:22:48
Speaker
Uh, that are adjacent to this one. So I think it's like 31 32 and 33. Yes. And they're in 33. Right. Yes. I believe that's correct. Yeah. Yeah. But then as they go to explore vault 32, they find even more things are not quite adding up. Everyone's dead. Everyone's dead. Um, they're trying to claw their way into vault 31. They write write in blood, which by the way, I don't know who's ever doing that. Yeah. Who's like, well, I don't have a pen or anything. Let me just make this mark here. If I'm ever like bleeding out and I know it's kind of how I'm going to die, I'm just going to write lol on the wall just to throw everybody off.
00:23:31
Speaker
yeah Like the whole thing of that adds a layer of entry. Yes. Whereas Lucy's adventure is I'm going to go save my dad and I'm going to kind of be okay through every single situation. Right. um And like there's some interesting parts along the way, but. Cause the character perspective for the mystery part is of Norm, Lucy's, Lucy's brother, who like is, you can tell he, his attitude is such that he's kind of like, he's not up with the idyllic lifestyle, right? He's the guy who's kind of like a loner, a little bit on the side, still friendly, but like he's a little cynical whenever one else is like full of downless optimism. Yeah. Um, which makes them a great point of view character.
00:24:20
Speaker
but I agree, like that that the mystery of what's going on with the three adjacent vaults is like, it's really interesting um and much more compelling in general than the plot lines going in on elsewhere. Yeah, even the other characters in Vault 33, um because certain ones are very much like, yep, this is a status quo, well Keep working on what we're doing. Uh-huh. Uh, and some other people. Yeah. Well, I love the two guys that are being super, super friendly to each other while like competing to get votes, but they're just like, it's the least there's no mud slinging or anything like that. They're almost to the extent of like, I would vote for the other guy just to be friendly. It's just very, very funny, but they don't even remotely get close to.
00:25:18
Speaker
I forget her name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, the transfer, I think from vault 31. Yeah. Who, uh, Norm goes through all the records and finds out that all of the overseers have actually been transfers from vault 31. They have some slogan that's like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it's the equivalent of like 31 gets it done or something like that. And so people just always vote for that person. Cause we're like, yeah, we always have. And he's like, that's weird. Weird how it's always been the case. And there's never been like a blip. um There's also one other tell this is a micro detail. we were We were going from like macro discussion to micro detail, but I appreciated this in the show.
00:26:08
Speaker
But one of the other transfers from Vault 31 is the woman who was pregnant. And like her husband was killed in the Raider attack. um But ah you find out that she's a transfer later, but in the slow mo fight, when all this stuff is going down, she's actually fighting. Like the the Vault 33 residents, most of them are running away or being slaughtered and stuff. And she's aggressively fighting back. And very, very few people are in the slow-mo. And I actually thought about it after the fact. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like they, they hinted something was going on. Cause she was one of the ones that was acting different. Yeah. Acting different. Exactly. That was cool. I liked that. I liked the foreshadowing. Yeah. I like your character overall too. Um,
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah, everything that happens in the vaults is just mystery and intrigue. And it's fun to have things uncovered. yeah That was kind of my hook between episodes of like, Oh, what's going to happen next? Um, overall, I already knew the Cooper Howard thing, because that was painfully obvious. And yeah they didn't super hard try to hide it. It was just, if you put it together, cool. Yeah.
Character Motivations and Realism
00:27:29
Speaker
I will say because yeah you mentioned that the other plot lines were less interesting. This actually mirrors the game. I'm coming in with my gaming gaming credentials here and ah specifically Fallout 3. The plot of that is go find um your dad, Liam Neeson, and he has a different name in the game, but it's Liam Neeson.
00:27:52
Speaker
And ah that is the main plot line is he has left the vault for some reason. In this case, he wasn't abducted, but, you know, potato, potato. And ah you need to go find him. And that's that's your goal. And it's literally the same thing as as Lucy's, right? Like the same parental motivation or whatever. um It goes in different directions at the end, but the game had a better plot line, so yeah. But it was ignored, is what I'm trying to say. What was ignored? In the game, for any Bethesda game, the official, this is the this the status quo for how you should play those games, is just don't do the main quest until you really, really want to. Because like there's all this other crap to do, why would you just do the main quest?
00:28:44
Speaker
And unfortunately the TV show is kind of the same way. It's like all of these interesting things are happening or subplot lines or mysteries. And the main quest is kind of boring by comparison. Yeah. I also, they kind of do that thing where everybody else besides the people in the vault have like, let's say, what's that Raider lady's name? Moldaver or Moldiver. Yeah, Moldaver. Like, she comes in, um they do the rating thing, and then she steals the overseer, Lucy's dad. yeah um And she's just kind of like, she she puts like a subtle hint of like, some people you know it might not be who they say they are. yeah And it's like, okay, that's literally only for TV, right? ah And my issue with that is, in any other context, what? Who's gonna, like,
00:29:36
Speaker
just kind of sprinkle some doubt and then leave. ahha Again, it makes sense in like a story perspective of like, I want to draw out the intrigue and da da da da da. But for like two people talking to each other, what's the actual fuck? Yes. And they do other things like that as well throughout the show where Lucy will be told something that's true. And it's historical like, um, Hey, um, this stuff happened X time ago and people have been around and outside on the surface, yada, yada, yada. And she's like, Oh no, that can't be right. Just cause it didn't match with her. Um, what she was brought up learning. Right. And I feel like there needs to be a more.
00:30:24
Speaker
a point where they actually have like a conflict with that and there's like a terrible realization or something. Right. And I feel like they just kind of dodged that a lot. I think it like they could have used it as a plot device. I actually really like the plot device of the I'm going to I mean, I don't know what the tropes called, but the all knowing antagonist. It was just like, hey, youthful upstart, the naive one protagonist. um The world is not as you perceive it, right? And it will all come crashing down, something like that. And then they just leave after you're having decimated your village or whatever the crap. This is the fable start also, by the way. It's a very classic joke, but um the idea is like, once you start to realize the way things are actually, you'll find that I have a use for you too, right? That's what Moldaver could have been setting in motion is like, hey, curiosity, doubt,
00:31:23
Speaker
and I have a use for you once you make it to me, right? Like your way there, it's all part of some grand plan or something like that. This is kind of like anime tier, big brain sort of nonsense. It's a little bit like, hey, I'm the final boss. If you're worthy, you will make it to me. Exactly. And then I will confront you there. Right. come Come to me for vengeance. And there I will slay you. Right. Like ah there's ways they could have made it more realized or some some value, because unfortunately, when Lucy actually does make it to Moldaver, like Moldaver didn't have any grand plan as far as I can tell for why Lucy would show up. She's like, hey, I'm friends with your mom. ah Your mom's been a ghoul. Your dad's the one who's responsible for it. Yeah.
00:32:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, what is the doubt? Cause the only, the only character motivation you could have for her, for Moldaver introducing doubt into Lucy there would be like, I just think you should know. And so I'm going to do my minimal part to maybe see if you find out. Right. But it, it's in a real world sense. It feels like going up somebody being like, do your research. ah Yeah, it it really is. It would have been very funny if she was just she just walks up to the windows like your mom's a ghoul and your dad is in on it. just lee it Yeah, I mean, obviously, it's going to open up some questions as far as like, what do you mean? Explain I need evidence or proof. and It's a TV construct, right? yeah People don't communicate. Is the issue. But yeah, it's it's just to get people to lean forward a little bit in their seats.
00:33:05
Speaker
So with the Moldaver thing, something I do want to bring up. Sure. The ghoul has been around for the entire time, right? Yeah, generally 200 years is the the estimate of bombs fell to present day and fallout occurrence. So how the fuck is Moldaver alive? Because in a flashback, you're like, oh, here's Moldaver meeting um Cooper Howard. And basically, she's on the side of, hey, I think Vault-Tec is up to no good. editor And so clearly she's not aligned with Vault-Tec. Yes. And the people you see like um Lucy's dad, played by Kyle McGauklin, solid dude. Very well built. Like you see that he was somebody who worked at Vault-Tec and he was essentially being reprinted through like the Buds Bud system. But well, they were just kind of there and they don't address it at all. Yeah. At all.
00:34:03
Speaker
They don't and they should have. they kind of They had an interesting play space here because in in vault and Fallout lore, there are factions at play. The main two are the Enclave, which are like the remnants of people from the vaults that are kind of old world. They dislike mutants. They want to reestablish the government. USA, USA, USA. That's kind of their jazz. And then the Brotherhood of Steel, which is like we must acquire technology to defend people from technology. That's kind of their whole thing. They put fun at that in the show. Yeah. yeah I mean, it's it's fair it's ah it's a fair point to make because it is and is literally just accumulating power because they think that and for the greater good, they should have the power, not other people. But yeah. um And those are those are those are the main factions. There's other factions. New Vegas has stuff.
00:35:01
Speaker
but like What they did with the show is they established the possibility that there was a pre-war faction or pretty like apocalypse faction that was opposing Vault-Tec, which ultimately would have gone on to be um the Enclave. um And like they kind of set the route for that with Moldaver, but unfortunately like they fill in nothing. And She has to be a ghoul, is the only in-universe justification. justifications. She either was ro awoken from cryosleep, and isn't aging naturally, or she had to be a ghoul. And they don't give you an indication one way or the other, but she dies to a gunshot, so she probably wasn't a ghoul. Right? Yeah.
00:35:58
Speaker
Really just too much left open and unexplained with that character that we're not. The ground piece character traits, not stuff that you want to leave open as questions to answer in the next season, but rather like, did you guys even think about this type questions? Yeah. And it also played into i'll do this last point. It also played into a fault I have with the show, which is just like everyone who was around pre-war is just around for some reason. 200 years later. They just find excuses for everybody. Oh, he was in cryo sleep. Uh, he's a ghoul. He's a cryo sleep ghoul. Right? Like, it's like, did people die? Like were there casualties when the United States was hit by all of these nukes? Or did everyone just go to sleep or become a ghoul? And even the ghoul's plot line is based off the hope
00:36:53
Speaker
that his family is either in cryo sleep or became gold, right? Like for 200 years, it's absurd. Yeah. It really doesn't make sense. Um, also the fact that he's so guarded about that, like what he's trying to do. And then he reveals at the end, like it's some big thing of like, I gotta find my family. Uh-huh. I'm like, okay. This is just another dad search. That's it. It's all it is. But the thing that's weird is at the very start of the show, um he's not with his wife. They even make mention about some alimony payments. I've never been married or divorced. I don't even know what that means. But um he's there with his daughter all my the time. is well i Yeah. All I money. he's He's there with his daughter initially. Yeah. So I guess at some point along the way,
00:37:51
Speaker
I guess she didn't die if he's looking for her. um But then I am kind of curious why he's looking for his wife, unless it's like for revenge. Right. But again, I don't know why you necessarily think that she would still be around. Yeah, there's no there's no real justification for it. It's also worth noting, going back to the gameplay, having played the Fallout games, but put the credentials on the table. Cryosleep wasn't really a thing until Fallout 4. There may have been a couple instances, but it was not really sort of accepted as a way
00:38:31
Speaker
to to to to do that until Fallout 4. And in that game, it's like, okay, now here's a reason why people that were pre-war can still be around. You literally, the protagonist, are a pre-war army veteran that is um still around because cryosleep. And that's the main plot device. But like they lean on it so hard for this show, so hard for this show. And I'm like, there's there's other ways to do it. And it kind of just shows, like they really, really thought it would be compelling to have these pre-war flashbacks directly connect to the same characters post-apocalypse. And they couldn't find a way to do that through like like children pat like through the vaults or um lost records or anything else like that that could establish a connection across these timelines. They literally just use the same people.
00:39:29
Speaker
um
00:39:32
Speaker
And I think that's kind of, it's it's trite.
World-Building and Lore Challenges
00:39:36
Speaker
a I'm gonna mention this as a as a video game thing, because I think it kind of relates. It depends on how much Bethesda was involved in the writing. Overall, I like the show, by the way. But there's a side quest in bethesda and Bethesda's Fallout 4, where a kid during the apocalypse hid in a fridge
00:40:01
Speaker
and became a ghoul due to radiation. And his parents independently also became ghouls. And then, and I'm gonna say this, bold, underlined, italic, everything, but except strike through, they're all still around. You find the kid in the fridge after 200 years and return him to his parents. And this is a quest in a video game. And they expect you to believe that.
00:40:43
Speaker
I'm just stepping back from the mic here. Everybody just think about that for a second. 200 years, the kid's not feral. He wants his mom and parents, like his mom and dad. 200 years have passed. Hi, I haven't been eating anything. or i've I've consumed nothing, yet I'm still alive. And I still retained my consciousness and sentience. Oh yeah, I miss mom and dad. By the way, um I'm still mentally a child. Even though I'm now let's say 212.
00:41:14
Speaker
um Yeah, it just. It kind of explains maybe the direction some of the stuff's coming from in the show, right? Yeah, they're like, hey, well, you just accept it because it's a thing. Yeah, yeah. It's absurd. I actually like verisimilitude is the word I like to throw around because it's fun to say. But like, how believable is the fiction within itself? And generally when you're playing a video game, you don't want to run across content in the game that's just like, ah, I'm playing a video game. But that's what that quest did for me as I was just like, a person wrote this.
00:41:56
Speaker
not my characters in the wasteland helping people out, you know? And unfortunately, there's some plot lines in the show where it's getting to the point of like, a person wrote this. So, o okay. not to Not as well on that too much um as we probably have. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about the flashbacks to pre-bomb I don't know. I'm split on it. I think it i think it could be it could be good, because like obviously the games don't do that, right? Yeah. And I think it's my two cents real quick before I... Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you a question to interrupt you. Classic stuff. The answer's wrong. yeah you Go ahead. yeah But I think it is for the audience who has not played the game, because like when they say at the end, like what if we drop the bombs? What if we control the nuclear apocalypse?
00:42:52
Speaker
And then people go, oh, whoa, that's the big reveal. But I mean, if you're paying attention at all, even if you haven't played the games, I feel like it's obvious. Yeah. Because they they hint that it's so hard throughout. Yeah. When you say we, I want to clarify it like Vault-Tec and z the the associated companies are on Vault-Tec.
00:43:17
Speaker
It's, I don't think it's hinted at at all in the game, right? So this is a new development, again, game credentials. um But Vault-Tec knew that the end was coming. Like they had basically calculated it to a mathematical certainty, um which is the reason that they invested millions or billions of dollars in building all of these vaults. But the the cynical twist And Fallout is like, they did all of this. They built the control vaults. Which is cool. I actually love the way that the show mentions this, like the way they bring it up the first time to the lay person is like, um, Cooper's wife mentions, she wants to get them in one of the good vaults or something like that. And you're like, I actually got like, I'm getting skin like prickles a little bit tinglies. Like you just recalling this because it was such a good delivery and I'm like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Here's where it is. Everyone's learning about the control vaults, vault tech scientists.
00:44:14
Speaker
did not want to experiment on themselves generally. So instead, they just made sure that their vaults actually kept them alive. They opened it a normal time. They weren't tests to run on people. It wasn't like 72 women and one man, or 72 men and one woman, and or like 72 men and one panther. i like it was ah just They were just normal vaults.
00:44:45
Speaker
But let's let's say that you you're having this conversation with your wife and she says that. Yeah. And then you're like, what? Wouldn't you follow that thought at all? I'm somebody who, if I have a conversation with somebody, I will think about the dumb things I probably said for a very long time, let alone if someone's like, oh, they're now establishing they're good ones versus not good ones. ah Oh, she's upset and crying. I won't push the issue.
00:45:16
Speaker
I'm not married, but like I feel like you don't just drop subjects randomly and then never bring it up again until it's resolved. I think from a real life relationship standpoint, this was a sign where if for the good of the relationship, they should have discussed it. Cooper in this scenario actually just immediately distrust his wife, I think, though. This is the inciting thing where he's like, I don't think pursuing this is actually going to get me the truth because I don't think she meant to let this slip. And so this is the fraction. That's my justification within the the fiction. um may I think that makes sense as an argument.
00:45:54
Speaker
by yeah it's there is a big but There is a bit of a jump because the show goes for like, hey, Vault-Tec actually just helped destroy the world, basically. um Which is kind of, it's kind of a step towards ultimate evil instead of just like cynical evil, which is the way Vault-Tec operated in the games. Like the the standout vault, I mentioned it to you before, but I mentioned it to the audience that I really like is um ah one that was designed to not never fully seal.
00:46:27
Speaker
And so radiation just seeped into the vault. A bunch of people died, but then a bunch of people also became ghouls who departed the vault and established necropolis, the ghoul city. And it's like, it's such, it's really cool world building, but it also is a glimpse into how evil Vault tech was yeah when they designed these experiments But there's a jump beyond that to be like we're gonna just Cause the world to be blanketed in nukes by causing all of these massive nuclear states to attack each other um I know I don't think the game implies that unless I miss something I Mean you you should know can't pronounce. I know but I
00:47:11
Speaker
but If you were going to pin that on somebody, pinning it on Vault-Tec is not the worst. Yeah. um But yeah. I did like how they were one of the early mysteries is just like, why does he not want to do the thumbs up anymore?
Comedic Elements and Emotional Impact
00:47:27
Speaker
And as as i mean as soon as they mentioned the thumbs up, I was like, oh, Vault Boy. But like they do eventually kind of tie that together. as It's just like, OK, yeah, he doesn't want to advertise for Vault Tech when he thinks that they might be doing nefarious things.
00:47:44
Speaker
Just little things. I like those. I like those touches in the show. It's the major story beats where I'm like, eh, I don't know. Yeah. Why is that power armor flying so high? Why is it like loony tunes across the sky right now? You can't do that in the game. Get like 30 foot vertical and then you just fall. Nate for TV.
00:48:06
Speaker
um But it's fine. Was there anything else that stood out as particularly good or poor across the series?
00:48:17
Speaker
um I did enjoy some of the intrigue with the, I forget which vault they went into, um but the one with all like the semi-humans? Yeah, vault four. Yeah. And of course, the way that they convey it is very kind of Scooby-Doo mystery, where it's like, hey, These can be able to kind of look suspicious. Don't they look suspicious? You're like, I guess they're suspicious. Yeah. um And then as you go on, you're like, oh, they're not bad people. Yes. Yeah. That thing. I like that subversion, too. Yeah. But it's also just an interesting look at another vault. I kind of would have liked that they would have done
00:49:00
Speaker
at least another instance of like going into a vault versus having so much stuff just above ground where it's like just generic wasteland stuff. Yeah, I think that's, ooh, that's a good take. I hadn't thought about that, but I just imagine that the the plot was redone so that in order to get the information she needed, Lucy needed to visit specific vaults. that maybe had like some of the information in the overseer's computers or something like that, right? That would have allowed them to lean more into the mystery aspect of what was going on with all these experimental vaults. All the stuff that the audience learns about um what's going on specifically in Vault 33 is through norm storyline. yeah Lucy doesn't learn shit out except so accept that the outside world is
00:49:52
Speaker
rough um because it's post-apocalyptic. The most she learns is in Vault 4 where she was like, oh, they were the residents of the vault were the ones experimenting on all these people. Yeah. The experiments escaped. Now they own the vault and they're not bad. Okay. Also that scene where her execution in quotes scene with the giant scimitar as like your punishment is death by exile. just like just It's almost like a jerking off sort of motion with the sword. I'll be honest as he's trying to cut through these like little binds to Freer.
00:50:31
Speaker
And they're like, you'll be supplied with two weeks of supplies and that's it. here And she's like, no, no. I was like, someone will carry the supplies for you. Like, okay. I just love it. I love it. but Yeah. People in the vaults are like nice to a fault. Uh-huh. That was a nice comedic touch. Throwing Gatorade, like the Gatorade sort of drink dispenser and stuff like that. Kicking people back as. It's a really good scene. That's the part of the show that's good is ah they're so good on some of these moments and scenes. It's the macro of what's going on that I have questions about. Yeah. Um, also the whole reveal towards the end between Lucy and her dad. Yeah. Again, no fault to the actors. Um, cause they work with what they're given and told, but it, it, it didn't feel that emotional.
00:51:28
Speaker
Cause like Lucy has a single tear as the sauce being described to her and her dad's like, ah, she's lying. No, don't, don't believe her. I'm your dad. Um, it just kind of, I don't know. It didn't compel me to feel one way or the other. I'm just kind of like, there's kind of like relaying events now. You're just kind of talking about it. Uh, and there's not even like a major thing where like, Oh, she pops off. She's like, I guess I don't. Well you infer from her reaction. I guess she doesn't trust him in the same way. Yeah. Type thing. Yeah. He's kept too many secrets, but it's still like, I don't know. It doesn't really feel super deserved. The problem is like her entire.
00:52:12
Speaker
mission is to get there to save her dad and then that all gets just preempted like undercut entirely it doesn't turn into a I'm gonna free you and then we're gonna talk about this it's just oh right maybe maybe I just leave you in the cage so my issue with basically these character plot lines is They don't always make sense, I guess is maybe the easiest way to describe it or they're the decisions they make aren't fully justified. It's really clear that here's the bullet point, right? Lucy and the ghoul have to get along. She's going to follow him. Her dad needs some reason to go off and be evil somewhere else. And so they kind of just force that all together rather than giving them natural. Justifications for why that happened. Do you want to talk about the, uh,
00:53:09
Speaker
the ghoul and the gun, the ghoul and the gun. Uh, you start talking about the ghoul and the gun and I'll remember what you're talking about. So basically at that kind of final conclusion where, um, well, David dies. Everyone's kind of at that same location. Um, I forget this is before, after Maximus is there. Yeah. But basically the ghoul says to Lucy, like, Hey, what are you going to do now? Do you want to join up with me? Are you gonna just hang out here? And she has a gun. And up until this point, like, I mean, yeah, I'm sure they have some common ground between them, but he's like, so essentially had her prisoner yeah and also tortured her. And used her as bait. Yeah. Yeah. This is not behavior that a guy that survived 200 years
00:54:07
Speaker
amongst the most desperate individuals. This is not how that person acts.
00:54:15
Speaker
Well, I mean, she's just she's so plucky. Oh, you know, she just she softened me. ahha Maybe he just has learned to trust or maybe she's just learned not to. try I don't know, but like it doesn't make any sense. yeah He also like, does he need a sidekick? Has he shown any desire to have Lucy accompany him up until this moment? Really? He was literally killing dudes in power armor because he knew where the weak spell was. Yeah. And he's a really good shot apparently.
Future Expectations for Fallout Series
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah, he's, he's your old west cowboy, Google character in new Vegas. This would be what Raul, but yeah. Um, right. Google never Google. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um, yeah, I don't know. I'm hoping they clear up the carrier character motivations a little bit more, make them a little bit more tied together for the next season, but that's not usually how season two works with a show. Is it? Mm-hmm. If they make another Rings of Power, which dear God, I hope they do not. It's just another one of those things where like, what? It feels more like it was made for TV versus here's the story. Let's adapt it for television type thing.
00:55:38
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't seen Rings of Power, but that kind of is literally the issue, is that they can only touch on specific things in Lord of the Rings, because they have access to the canon outside of the main story. They have the, I was gonna say Simulacrum, that's wrong, Simerillian, and lore and stuff like that. So they kind of have to tell side stories, but in this case, they don't have that constraint. Um, the last thing I want to touch on, I know we're going to the, to the, to the, to the end of time here. So I don't want to open an entire can of worms, but like Bethesda in the past has shown, oh I want to say reluctance to retread some of the ground that was laid by the early fallout games. So like, um, just as the briefest of primers in general, the West coast was established by fallout one, fallout two, particularly like California jazz like that. Um.
00:56:35
Speaker
The first Bethesda owned game was Fallout 3 and they're like, okay, well, we kind of have to tell a different story. We're a little concerned about fans disagreeing with us, whatever their motivations were. They went to Washington DC, right? Like East coast biz. Um, and they still, kind they use the same factions. Actually the brotherhood and enclave are both also on the East coast, which is kind of funny. Um, but they wanted like a clean break.
00:57:04
Speaker
Years pass, the show comes out, they absolutely are pulling from these other locations, right? Shady Sands, really important location in the early Fallout games. Gets nuked, officially nuked in the canonicity of the show um after the end of New Vegas. New Vegas? also really big in West Coast fallout lore, which was made by um Obsidian, right? They went back and and Obsidian made Fallout New Vegas.
00:57:38
Speaker
And now the teaser at the end is Cooper in his power armor. Again, he kind of has to cover a bit of a distance between California and New Vegas, but whatever. There's a time skip, I guess. Standing there in his power armor, no helmet, looking at the city. And I'm like, please, please don't ruin New Vegas for me. There's so many ways that they can.
00:58:08
Speaker
spoilers, uh, probably. yeah Yeah. I, I don't trust again. I have less investment, but I do not trust them to not infringe on something like that based on what I've seen from this season. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think if they have some stuff to like tie in to make people go, Oh yeah, that was like from the games. Um, they will do that. And as you said, or as we've kind of gone over with this, ah they don't really care about how some of those dots are connected. They'll just kind of like stamp them together and call it a day and move on. um I have some ideas about how they're going to do it because one of the characters that is in that council meeting of all those board people, one of those guys was Robert House.
00:59:00
Speaker
who is the um the ceo CEO of Robco and the one of the main characters of New Vegas. And part of the specific ending is the house always wins. If you side with him instead of doing wild card, where you side with yourself or Caesar's Legion or Brotherhood of Steel or whoever else, right? Like main factions you could side with. If you go with Robert house, he remains in control of new Vegas and it's protected by a bunch of robots and jazz like that. Um, it's the main plot line for new, like new Vegas play. If you can, you probably need mods to make it work at this point, but like.
00:59:39
Speaker
I think that's the take they're gonna do because they've already introduced that character and they can just use him in the next season. um But he would be well over 200 years old in a life support ah pod, basically at this point with just like automation making his organs work.
Core Themes of Fallout and Closing Thoughts
01:00:01
Speaker
um So we'll see. I'm just, I'm concerned. Uh, well, but we'll see, I guess. Um, I know the other thing I want, them the other question I have is, are they going to at least reference the courier who is the protagonist of new Vegas? Um, because as the protagonist in an RPG, you do a lot of stuff. So it's kind of weird not to get mentioned, especially since this happens canonically after the end of that game. Yeah. So.
01:00:37
Speaker
We'll see. So we're going to make assumptions about our character.
01:00:44
Speaker
Oh, the courier. Classically known for having a socialization bill. Tries to win everybody over with a charisma. Didn't kill any, it didn't kill anything. Didn't shoot anybody. Just talk with that one. Sure, sure. Yeah. Your courier, maybe. I just talked everybody onto to the ledge.
01:01:08
Speaker
at Courier Six, take the package. Anyways, New Vegas is excellent. If you have the opportunity, you should play it. But overall impressions on the show, hopes, fears, aspirations for the future. I thought it was entertaining enough ah for me to keep watching. um I kind of wish they would have things a little more cohesive if they do continue the show. Because I'm a big stickler about that. I don't like having stuff for the sake of it. An easy example is, oh, there's two characters? They're going to fuck? Maybe they can just do the thing, right? like It's not bad to have like a sexual attraction. But like if you're having an inner, you're just for the sake of like, we have to have somebody who's interested in romance. I hate that shit. I hate it so much.
01:01:55
Speaker
ah and I also kind of wish they would lean into a little more of the darker side. Cause like I've looked up some stuff about early fallouts and again, it's postal pocket post-apocalyptic science fiction. Let your mind wander, right? exactly you can There's a lot of crazy shit. And I think it'd be more interesting to touch on some of those. Cause like a lot of it's just people been like, yeah, the wasteland's bad. It's hard to live here. yeah I want to hear some really fucked up shit about like,
01:02:25
Speaker
tough choices people need to make or whatever, something that makes it a little darker, a little more grounded in, hey, it's it's post-pop later, things are really fun. Like Mad Max is your wasteland action, right? Fallout is these dark and sometimes satirical or darkly funny interactions of how does humanity survive in this situation? That's always been the core of Fallout. It's like, people are the worst. They did this to each other. They did this to themselves. How were they dealing with it going forward? yeah that's That's the core of Fallout. But it manages to not be super depressing because eventually they just throw in a joke.
01:03:16
Speaker
Right. Like here's the Indiana Jones nuclear survival fridge. Right. So, um, or there's just aliens. They're just aliens and fall out canonically. So like, there's a lot he can play with there. Um, but yeah, that's life. Hopefully it's good. I'd like to, like to watch the next one, especially if I don't have to sign up for anything for it. So true that's the dream.
01:03:49
Speaker
Well, if you guys have plans to survive the impending fallout, prepper sheets, information, documentation, stuff like that, feel free to send it in Substone Podcast at gmail dot.com or join our survival group at on Facebook, facebook dot.com slash Substone Podcast. And as always, we'll see you in the next one. Have a good one.
01:04:48
Speaker
Bye!