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June Was Always An Incremental-Type Month
11 Plays3 days ago
Join Dave and Jake as they talk about a whole lot of indie games, how weird it would be to play Subnautica 2 co-op, our impressions of Haste, even more in week's episode!
Indie spotlight:
Pseudoregalia
Metro Gravity
Mina the Hollower
A Dark Room
Penrose
Reincarnated as a Dark Lord Before Taking Over the World with Power 999999999
Space Warlord Baby Trading Simulator
Haste
Intro:
- Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - Termina Field
Outro:
- C418 - Minecraft Alpha - Cat
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Transcript
Casual Chat: Ramen and Weather
00:00:37
Speaker
How's it going everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. my name is Jake and I'm joined by my co-host is always Dave. How's it cooking Dave? Oh, it's cooking well.
00:00:48
Speaker
The microwave is hitting the wattage expected. And my ramen noodles have been cooked through. No no raw bits. Excellent. Do you add an egg? I mean, you're probably not if you microwave it, I assume.
00:01:02
Speaker
Uh, I... Hmm. I've tried in the past putting a raw egg in.
00:01:11
Speaker
The way you describe that makes me think that you're adding a raw egg after the noodles are done. And you're like, all right, time to eat it. It's not that bad. But looking back, I now think I did the initial cooks. I don't want the the egg to explode. So then after, like, you need to let the noodles steep, yeah keep all that heat in there, and let the noodles soak up the broth.
00:01:33
Speaker
like... I could probably cook an egg, all right? Yeah. this is
Indie Games: Creativity and Cost
00:01:37
Speaker
This is a hot soup given like seven minutes. Yeah. My first attempt with an egg was was quite poor.
00:01:45
Speaker
um But later, it's it's gotten better. You know, if you're actually cooking noodles over the oven or something like that, it's a lot easier too. um And it does help. an egg an egg helps. You got some decent ramen noodles, throw an egg in there for protein. It's a good time.
00:02:02
Speaker
That's our that's a recommendation for the day. That's all you guys get. See ya. um It is a million degrees outside.
00:02:13
Speaker
One billion degrees. If this were yesterday, I'd be like, yeah. what What was the temperature yesterday? it hit like 94 with the humidity of the storm from the previous day. Mm-hmm.
00:02:31
Speaker
Okay, it's like 84. I guess it's not too bad. But yes, yesterday was pretty rough. Man. That makes it less less dramatic. That's a thing to talk about. That's fine. That's fine. um I didn't mean to literally turn down the degrees on your hot summer. No, that's okay. I mean, it's still too hot for me to go outside. it is. I'm not comfortable there.
00:02:55
Speaker
High of 87 today. Yeah. um There are things that I want to do outside, but they are outside. yeah So they they are being postponed until I have a perfect day with the right amount of shade.
00:03:10
Speaker
All
Game Review: Pseudo Regalia and Art Styles
00:03:11
Speaker
the bugs are on vacation or something. Yeah. Your neighbors are throwing very specific insults at you. It's the correct amount of shade right now.
00:03:22
Speaker
I have not heard that in such a long time. Uh-huh. But I guess that would make sense for like the shade and the shady. not sure if that term was used that way back then though.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, throwing throwing some shady I think is is what the kid said. yeah He was small like a hobbit. Show people got no reason. There is a Flash game. Very offensive, probably. Playing, not even probably, it just was. It was just short person throwing simulator, and that song was just playing on loop in the background. It was a different time. It was a different time.
00:04:01
Speaker
um Probably still offensive back then, though. ah Let's see. Recently, games. Let's talk about that.
00:04:14
Speaker
Games that are coming out. I will say i did pick up a couple of things. Yeah. um One or two of which I mentioned before, but I picked up pseudo regalia, which is a third person action platformer.
00:04:35
Speaker
um But it gets compared a lot to Super Mario 64. As far as like you do have some jump and movement tech options. That's a pretty strong comparison. Super Mario 64 is a very renowned game in the history of gaming.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yeah. Everyone who I've seen review this, you're like, the movement feels great. Yeah. I also think like sometimes sometimes games are a little bit bold to try 3D platforming because it's so easy to mess it up.
00:05:11
Speaker
Like even in Super Mario 64, some of those percent like perception and movement. If that goes off just a little bit, it feels really bad to like miss jumps and stuff like that.
00:05:22
Speaker
um That game changes angles quite a bit. Yeah. That is true. But the enhanced privileges regalia.
00:05:33
Speaker
ah What do you what else do we know about this game? ah The protagonist is a hot goat lady. Okay. adding to
Indie Game Production and Creative Constraints
00:05:44
Speaker
wishlist um i know it's an indie darling it's like seven ish bucks and it's not an insanely long game okay um but like i said before it is very polished with movement and design and you can tell it's a made with love yeah
00:06:08
Speaker
i kind of I kind of love that. As most games made with hate. Both of these could be broken. Rancor, Malice. ah ah Oh, man. You said Rancor and it made me think of the magic card.
00:06:21
Speaker
yeah yeah you all The only reason I know that word is because of the magic card. Hatred outlives the hateful. Yeah. um I really like that some of these games are absolutely worth picking up that are like sub 10 bucks.
00:06:35
Speaker
Seriously? like i feel Like, I feel like Haste was pretty inexpensive. Maybe that was sub 10 or something like that. I can't remember. I picked up a game recently that was pretty low.
00:06:46
Speaker
think Haste is around 20. Okay, 20. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember what I picked up then, but it was definitely on the on the lower end.
00:06:58
Speaker
um And every time it's just like, it feels good because it feels like an active ah rebellion against like freaking $70 games and stuff like that.
00:07:11
Speaker
And like, I get it. You're presenting something at a different scale, right? Like these are indie games. They're not supposed to have a billion hours of content. They didn't cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make, but like,
Pricing and Value: Indie vs. AAA Games
00:07:26
Speaker
Gosh darn it, if it's fun, why do we care? Well, my thought process is indie games can be so much cooler because they aren't trying to leverage the the latest technology and throwing millions of dollars and hiring all of these people to do all of these things.
00:07:46
Speaker
They're like, hey, it's just me. I have a very small budget for what I want to invest into this. And what can I make with that limited scope with just the tools that I have access to? Yeah. I don't want to pay $300 for this asset.
00:08:04
Speaker
How would I try and make that? How would I represent a dragon in a less expensive fashion? Yeah. But enough that it's still... carries over and it's not like jank as shit.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah. And dragons are pretty big. They can carry a lot. So like that's not ah that's not a major concern. um But yeah, it forces you to make like I'm sure we'll get to this when we start to talk about haste and things like that.
00:08:31
Speaker
But when you're operating in an indie space, sometimes the fact that you are more constrained helps you focus your product a little bit better. And if you fail to do that and you're in the indie space, you probably just never shipped your game, right? Or it's just been in early access for the last 20 years. like Because otherwise, like you really don't have the resources to go wide in every direction. You kind of like have to pick some things to excel excel at um At least that's my take.
00:09:03
Speaker
The game should have a selling point. Mm hmm. A front leading one. And if you want to have multiple, God bless. But yeah, I think if one thing is really polished, the other things can be a little bit less polished and you're like, yeah, it's fine.
00:09:21
Speaker
Right. Mm hmm. Again, like a lot more indie games will have a less realistic art style because it's easier to do. Right. It is more simpler, straightforward. um
00:09:38
Speaker
There's nothing wrong with that, though. Like, I know something that was we we got a trailer, I think, recently for Kingdom Hearts four. And they're going for a more realistic art style, not like photo realistic, but like closer to Final Fantasy. Closer
Indie Game Recommendations and Discoveries
00:09:53
Speaker
to Final Fantasy. Yeah. Less and round cartoon, I guess.
00:09:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I want to see if I can find like a comparison here so I can just, you know, show all of our all our viewers for our audio based podcast but like it is yeah yeah the call for a final fantasy is a hundred percent correct i'm just gonna send this example to dave um it's literally just several it's just several yeah you're just uh staring aggressively at cloud um but like it's a hundred percent final fantasy looking oh yeah this is so much more
00:10:33
Speaker
anime face. Exactly. And here's the thing. Kingdom Hearts doesn't need it. Like, it's very much like the fact that Sora is, you know...
00:10:46
Speaker
like very pixel based and like more basic colors and things like that. Like at no point did I feel like that just detracted from kingdom hearts. Also like all the other characters, you know, you're interacting with Disney characters and things like that. And I'm just, I'm sure for kingdom hearts for, they're still going to have it. So like if you're in the little mermaids world or something like that, the graphical art style for those characters will match the sort of like drawn cartoon.
00:11:16
Speaker
But at the same time, like, I don't know. It feels like it's just more work to make everything look realistic. And who cares at this point if it's, you know, Kingdom Hearts and you already had ah an art style?
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like their stuff was pretty identifiable as, oh that's Kingdom Hearts. Yeah. It wasn't overly produced. It was just cartoony and smooth.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's my impression as well. So like it's it's definitely something that I think game developers need to take under consideration.
00:11:56
Speaker
It's not that like I hate realistic graphics and sometimes games get more out of them. Like are I feel like the go to that we've mentioned multiple times is like um ah Ghost of Tsushima like really awesome when the graphics add a lot to the experience and it matches, you know, ah ah aesthetic that you're going for and it feels artistic. Right. But that's kind of the thing.
00:12:20
Speaker
Like the graphics, if they feel artistic in any way, do not need to be realistic. Right. Like that doesn't have to be what you aim for. like a hyper detailed Mario would just look disgusting. We don't need that. why it's Yeah, it also kind of takes it out of the the suspended belief fantasy aspect a little bit. we're Like, it's a little video game character to this is this is what Mario would look like next to me as an actual person with problems. It's just like a
Indie Game Design: Challenges and Growth
00:12:55
Speaker
short, fat plumber. You know, like, great.
00:12:58
Speaker
um Yeah, and I think if you if you go too far into realism, then you start getting compared to photorealistic, in which case your characters can actually look worse, right? Because now it's you're aiming for but not yet achieving photorealism.
00:13:15
Speaker
And you're always going to hit some uncanny valley with that because while AI is super fucking advanced and it's improved a lot,
00:13:27
Speaker
It's still going to look jank.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you're using AI for these as well, oh you're going to have everybody. Everybody jumped on your throat right now, um which is probably the way it should be. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying like AI has a pretty good deal of photorealism at the moment for stuff. But it looks off.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah, because you're trying to achieve. This is like what I would see walking around. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's fair. So we'll see. i know we talk about like the the virtues of Indies versus, you know, AAAs and things like that. But um this is just another one where having a little bit less money and being forced to make some other decisions to not, you know, what if what if we don't have the budget of GTA 6? What can we do with that?
00:14:24
Speaker
OK, as it turns out, a lot of cool things. So Saints Row. Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, i man, I really enjoyed Saints Row. I wish that our multiplayer last multiplayer attempt didn't crash miserably. But yeah, that really kind of self imploded, unfortunately.
00:14:44
Speaker
here hmm. I don't remember if I told the story, but it's the story that I've told to people enough times that I think I've told it. Mm hmm. ah But there was a time where we had the flood in college and everybody had to like leave campus for at least a number of days because water wasn't really a thing that we had access to. ah So we dipped, we went to a friend's house for the weekend.
00:15:12
Speaker
And I was staying there, I wanted to cook. And I'm like, this isn't my fridge. What does my friend's parents fridge have? um TLDR, this is how I ended up starting my version of barbecue chicken, m where I'm like, oh, well we have chicken.
00:15:31
Speaker
I have beer. There is barbecue sauce. And then I would just grab other things that were red or brown. Right. That would seem to fit in the flavor profile.
00:15:44
Speaker
But again, i would have never just been like, i want to make barbecue chicken out of the blue. ahha Until it's like, you have this and a bag of lettuce. I'm like, hmm. Barbecue lettuce.
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah. that's I mean, college students have had worse barbecued lettuce. But yeah, it' I think the constraint really helps also filter out people that have like ideas sometimes from people that have like good ideas.
00:16:13
Speaker
in the indie space because there's there there are so many indie games out there um and achieving success doesn't necessarily mean that like it's not that all of the best like all of the deserving indie games break out. That's definitely not true either.
00:16:29
Speaker
But the ones that do break out, they were not because, know, they they did well played well and people were like you gotta try this game mm-hmm yep entirely true i think everybody in the bellatro cult was inducted by somebody it's like you've played poker before right uh-huh yeah it's actually like very funny the story of bellatro is like it's it's so it's so interesting to think about like how that game reached uh mass adoption
00:17:06
Speaker
um Because, yeah, people who were interested in poker, you know, gave it a shot. It has nothing to do with poker for the most part. um It's kind of entirely something, but it's also hyper like addictive and ah incredibly well made as far as like the game feel, the aesthetic, the sound profile and ambience and all of that. It's like it's really good.
00:17:31
Speaker
um And sometimes I'm going to check that at some point. Yeah. Definitely recommend it. I own it. I haven't actually put a ton of time into it because i can recognize it's an excellent game and it has all of those attributes, but still I don't generally go in for like those those types of games like here's here's one. I'm going to do another run of this type game if it's not like co-op. So Slay the Spire 2 is actually hit for me a lot more than Slay this by the Spire 1 ever did specifically because I've only played it in co-op.
00:18:09
Speaker
I've never just done a run of it. um And because of that, I'm wildly successful when people who have ah everything unlocked take me to the low tier ascensions. But yeah, it's indie games. Good stuff.
00:18:28
Speaker
What
Multiplayer Dynamics: Exploration and Balance
00:18:29
Speaker
about you? Have you been i have something anything recently that's been catching your eye? Mm-hmm. I told people I bought Subnautica 2. Still haven't played that. I'll let you know when I do.
00:18:40
Speaker
I'm like religiously ah closing articles and YouTube shorts and anything like that that has anything to do with Subnautica 2. People are like, oh, here's a new tip for like how to use this glitch in the early access version. I'm like, get this crap out of here.
00:18:58
Speaker
I still don't know how to feel about it being multiplayer. And that's still an unresolved question to me about whether I want my first experiences with Subnautica 2 to be multiplayer or not.
00:19:11
Speaker
Especially if the game's kind of designed around it. I don't know. i don't know. But I will say that the few videos I've seen of people playing have been in a multiplayer context.
00:19:23
Speaker
They seem to be having fun for the most part. ah They still will encounter some spooky things. But it usually seems like they're having fun with somebody else encountering a spooky thing while they're all like making stuff at base. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I think I think that's fair. Like it might be one of those games where it's like if you want to all experience it together, you kind of have to have some sort of commitment to to kind of like all go out on an expedition at the same time.
00:19:59
Speaker
And like if because if you don't all go out on an expedition at the same time in a game like Subnautica, I feel like the comparison I would make to real life is like, hey, you're watching a movie with all of your friends and it's something that you all want to watch. And then you're like, I'm going to go make some snacks.
00:20:16
Speaker
And then everyone else keeps watching the movie like while you're making snacks. And that's basically the same vibe, right? You could be doing work back at base and maybe it's what you want to do, right? Like you're you're invested in the base building or something.
00:20:27
Speaker
But just because you made that decision to be invested in the base building does not mean that you're not also interested in being part of that experience where everyone saw Leviathan for the first time, right like Yeah, I've I feel like for survival co-op, a lot of times I would want to do ah group venturing on stuff because if you're exploring, you're likely to find new things. Yeah. um I know some people who are like, i don't need to see the new things. I will be at base.
00:20:58
Speaker
You will bring me the new things. I will improve the base. Yes. The dedicated worker type thing. I just think the vibe is different between um ah i would compare and contrast this type of experience to something like seven days.
00:21:10
Speaker
We're like seven days to die. You can have an entire group of friends and each one like has a job. And if someone just wants to go out and explore and gather resources and bring them back, the other people are not missing out necessarily.
00:21:24
Speaker
Like when there's separate activities, it's not content per se. Like contrasting that to Subnautica, exploration is a massive part of the game. Like when I when I played through, I played through and beat Subnautica one like a while back and it was a lot faster. Actually, um And I wasn't even like necessarily trying to speed run necessarily. It's just like I already knew so much about the game.
00:21:55
Speaker
And so like the vibes are completely different between like unknown Subnautica and known Subnautica. It's the reason no one's going back to play Below Zero.
00:22:06
Speaker
because We already know it. i mean, though there's nothing we want to do there. But um yeah, it's just kind of an interesting... Interesting place. um So unresolved questions still.
00:22:20
Speaker
We will find out. um my No, I think original forest was also multiplayer, right? Yeah, they all were. yeah But there was a... um Not good comparison.
00:22:32
Speaker
There was a difference in the forest, like, mechanically, if you were single player versus multiplayer. And that if you were a single player and you were knocked out or, like, killed, in quotes, by ah the cannibals, um they would, like, string you up in a cave and you could, like, cut yourself down. And that would be your introduction to the cave systems and...
Incremental Games: Unconventional Mechanics
00:22:52
Speaker
kind of like push you forward in the plot because all of that game's plot happens in caves probably will forever we're gonna be on mars and it's still gonna be like oh yeah we put all the plot in caves ah um when we get get to the next forest i thought this was just like a moon exploration uh-huh yeah A couple other games I played recently, and we don't have to go super in-depth on these, but I had kind of an incremental games kick, which is like games that people might question whether they're actually games or not.
00:23:29
Speaker
this Is this the like cookie clicker, like a number go... up like yeah generator type. Yeah. So the the difference is like incremental games have some shared DNA with idle games, but they don't have to be. So the two that i bought and played were a dark room, which is like a formative game for me.
00:23:50
Speaker
um It was originally like a Flash game like a decade ago, maybe plus change. ah Yeah, like 2013 is when I think it first came out. was like a Flash game, but it got added to Steam.
00:24:03
Speaker
um And without you know going into a bunch of details, it's just clicking things. And then eventually you're gathering resources and there's very little UI. And it's kind of like antsy graphics if you ever get to the point of having UI.
00:24:16
Speaker
And it like seems like there's not going to be a story at all. And then there actually is. Like, um and I don't think it's excellent. Right. This isn't some like hidden gem that's just like incredible.
00:24:27
Speaker
But if you've never played a game like that, it can be really interesting. um I will say I love subversion not more than I love Git by any means.
00:24:42
Speaker
That's an old Java joke wal for anybody. Quality programming jokes. yeah But I really do like the having my expectations ah subverted. Mm-hmm.
00:24:55
Speaker
Because like if I'm going into something knowing, oh, this is you know, like high fantasy thing, and then everything's like the standard tropey high fantasy stuff...
00:25:08
Speaker
I'm not really gaining anything from that because I've seen that in a movie. I've played that in a game, read that in a book already. um But when things break into new territory or start approaching things from different angles, the movie Sinners is a good example of going in one way and coming out completely different. Yeah, so excellent movie.
00:25:30
Speaker
And it's just. Really cool, because if people are enjoying the thing and invested, when those ah twists happen or there are those changes in gameplay, theming, it's like, oh, there's now multiple dimensions.
00:25:46
Speaker
You're like, oh, shit, this this is getting huge. Yeah. And what's funny is without knowing anything about the game, you like almost touched on some spoilers, which is really, really funny. But ah it's hyper inexpensive and seem if you're interested in incremental games, that at least pick it up. I will say, like, as far as gameplay, there's not a lot of that initially.
00:26:08
Speaker
It's like you're in a dark room. You can click a button to light a fire. The fire will start to go out after time. You can click the button
Spotlight on 'Penrose': Narrative and Puzzles
00:26:15
Speaker
to like keep the fire going until someone joins you.
00:26:19
Speaker
Leads to like building a village and sending out people to hunt and all this other stuff. And the gameplay progresses from there. But like um it's just. It was really cool to me when i am I was more used to like traditional games where like the gameplay was something that i it's on the box, right? It's like on the back of the box, you know what you're getting. Incremental games are very often not that.
00:26:43
Speaker
um But the other one, which was made by the same publisher is called Penrose. And this is basically reading a story. So if you don't want to like read a book,
00:26:55
Speaker
then I wouldn't recommend this game at all because it basically is just reading a book with the conceit. that after you read a part of the book, you're basically reading a um almost like ah a kind of like choose your own adventure esque interaction thing. um When you read a part of the book, ah it'll reach like a conclusion. And it's usually not that great for the people that you're following.
00:27:22
Speaker
And you can go back and change something. in the story that causes everything else to cascade out. um This sounds like a ah an Asian dating sim game. It very well could be, right? Like, um there's not a lot of dating in it, but like,
00:27:44
Speaker
An example, like a really early type of example is like two people are exploring this dilapidated building and um the police show up and like go to chase them out.
00:27:59
Speaker
But the security system like triggers and blocks the exit. So the guy like ends up getting arrested, which is basically like a game over. But then you can go back and be like, oh, what if like what if the security system What if the power was cut off like before they went into the building? What if they found like a breaker and and switched it or something like that? And some of the things are like you can change the people's actions to do something a little bit different.
00:28:25
Speaker
And other things, it's like kind of hand of God, deus est machina sort of thing where ah you just change something about the world a little bit and that butterfly effects out.
00:28:37
Speaker
um And it's all that's it's it's a puzzle game, right? Like that's basically what that boils down to. But it's a puzzle game where like your only source of information is what you're getting from the story. And so if you run into something where you don't know the answer, you can probably explore other characters points of view and other chapters and things like that to get the information you need to progress.
00:29:01
Speaker
really really cool kind of novel idea um literally but um yeah exactly um so that one that one i kind of do recommend although it gets kind of like esoteric and cosmic a little bit towards the end what does it mean to be literally also kind of a spoiler but yeah
00:29:29
Speaker
I just mean like went a lot of games that do get philosophical. huh. It's like, what message are they trying to convey to the player at the end? And I just picked a generic overarching.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, without really spoilering it, because it's probably included in the store page, like the high level idea is it's like a brother and sister trying to figure out what happened to um their mother that went missing.
00:30:00
Speaker
And ah yeah, it's it's it's really cool. It touches on like ah very much. ah like outsider-esque cosmic influence notes and things like that, like you might expect from the Cthulhu mythos. um And yeah, recommend it. It was fun.
Niche Gaming Experiences: Exploration and Appeal
00:30:21
Speaker
um And then I picked up ah one other. This is the last one. This is my alternative to having an incremental game episode. This one has a very short title. ah Reincarnated as a Dark Lord before taking over the world with power.
00:30:42
Speaker
um an anime It's basically an anime one um' a full-on anime title. This one mechanically is ah different from the other two and that it is kind of idle game-esque.
00:30:57
Speaker
You basically click a decision And it'll have like a countdown. It'll take like this will take you like two seconds to resolve. You are building a fortress or you're gathering resources or you're gathering like growing ah horns or something like that because you're the Dark Lord.
00:31:12
Speaker
um and And there's a bar at the top that's just any time that you're doing something, it's progressing to an incoming threat. You have a power level.
00:31:23
Speaker
And if you don't reach the power level of the threat, the threat will kill you. It will end your run for that chapter. And then because you're reincarnating, you can start over, regain your memories. So you like have explored all of these nodes because the way it works is after you do something, a lot of times it will connect other actions, other like areas you can explore, things you can do.
00:31:44
Speaker
And what you try to do is figure out a run to accomplish some specific goal ah in that chapter with the time that you have. And so it's also a puzzle game.
00:31:57
Speaker
But it's it's it's really interesting because the first part usually like information gathering, what's available here. And then you kind of build a route to figure out how to get what you want done within the time that you have.
00:32:09
Speaker
Interesting. What you're describing sounds mechanically very similar to Minute. Yes, actually. Very similar. Minute is more of like a video game.
00:32:22
Speaker
because this game is just clicking boxes minute i think actually has you run around in two things no um okay but uh but yeah same kind of like core conceit um and it had like a decent amount of content i think it was like 20 hours or so um nice across a bunch of different chapters uh it was very inexpensive if i recall correctly um But yeah, apparently I played, I didn't even realize, but like, yeah, three incremental simulators since the last last episode, um or incremental games. Could be worse. You could just be
Game Recommendations for Different Audiences
00:33:00
Speaker
driving different truck DLCs.
00:33:06
Speaker
And then I haven't played it, but I picked up one last one. I'm sure it's going to be excellent. a Space Warlord Baby Trading Simulator.
00:33:17
Speaker
Is this like Oregon Trading Simulation? It is actually by the same developer. Space Warlord. I hate that I nailed it. Yes. um And I mean that one, you can just look at the trailer for it, but it's exactly what it is.
00:33:33
Speaker
Described as you basically just make bets based off of some baby's life Essentially you're like oh I think that this person this baby's going big, you know like they're gonna be in they're gonna be an astronaut They're gonna be they're gonna develop FTL travel or something like that and you can like ah bet on the successfulness of the baby But if things start to look down, you know, maybe this baby decides it's a good idea to like go paragliding without a parachute or something like that, like you can short the baby and say instead, I'm going to bet against this baby's continued survival.
00:34:11
Speaker
Have you heard of Polymark? This is this would probably be a pretty good, pretty good critique of the actual online gambling a scenario.
00:34:22
Speaker
And also, I mean, like, obviously, ah at a certain point, you're not actually like betting against the baby anymore because this betting goes like across their entire lifespan. Right. Yeah.
00:34:33
Speaker
But you start when they're a baby. So that's that's that's the reason it's, you know, baby ah trading simulator. But yeah. Damn. I got to play more esoteric games.
00:34:47
Speaker
I mean, I don't know if it's good, like as a game or not, but I guarantee it's going to be different. um Because ah i put I actually put a decent amount of time into Oregon Trading Simulator.
00:34:57
Speaker
And... games yeah The game's got some killer tracks. like it's it's It's pretty good. and It's pretty good. i have to give it a peep. Yeah. ah So all the games I'm talking about are games that are like the most specific kind of recommendations to very edge case type genres and things like that.
00:35:20
Speaker
um
Impressions of 'Mina the Hollower': Indie Charm
00:35:22
Speaker
Did you play anything that we can actually recommend to people that are fans of conventional video games? ah So.
00:35:32
Speaker
Another game I picked up, I talked about very briefly in a previous episode, Metro Gravity. i have not played more than what I've played in the demo at this point, but.
00:35:44
Speaker
A game about platforming and shifting gravity and indie order art style type thing. Looks like good vibes. I will report back when I have more actual information.
00:35:56
Speaker
um But I picked up and actually played a little bit as of this morning. Mina the Hollower. Oh, yeah. I've finally been sold on checking it out.
00:36:08
Speaker
What are your impressions? It's good. well I like it. yeah Excellent. and We'll put it from so this is from... We have two buckets. We have two buckets that we put games in. It's like, eh, now for me, or it's good, I like it. That's the full rating scale.
00:36:27
Speaker
Oh, look, he's making a thumbs up. yo Oh, he's happy. So, this is made by the same group that did... was it Yeah, Shovel Knight, I believe. Okay.
00:36:42
Speaker
So, musically, really nice. They also have a lot of attention to detail with their Pixlark graphics. um But as far as gameplay, I've heard it described as kind of like a top-down... Excuse me.
00:36:59
Speaker
A top-down 2D Zelda game. But it has some Dark Souls-y elements. as far as like technically having a dodge roll, unlocking shortcuts, ah having that slow level progression and kind of needing to learn some of the the enemy's moves as you're progressing through level.
00:37:22
Speaker
Also, it it looks punishing. Right. I'm at the very early stages where it's like, hey, here's how you jump. I'm like, which button is it still so early? Right.
00:37:36
Speaker
I saw this one popping off. I saw a lot of a lot of friends playing it. I know it like hit the ah recommended list on Steam pretty quickly. lot of people were looking forward to it. Yeah, I think between it being an indie darling and a Shovel Knight being as good as it was.
00:37:55
Speaker
Right. And it was also a while ago. It's been a long time since Shovel Knight came out. Oh, gee, yeah. I know they made some... Like two or three DLCs, which like i guess were free LCs.
00:38:12
Speaker
I looked it up. The original Shovel Knight was released on PC, 3DS, and Wii U in 2014.
00:38:20
Speaker
Oh, my back hurts. My lungs feel tight. Yeah, it is quite old. But I'll have to actually verify this.
00:38:35
Speaker
But I think, is it vert? Is that the reckless disregard for gravity? or no i was thinking of ahhh.
00:38:47
Speaker
i don't know what Vert is. A V-I-R-T. Somebody from like the OC Remix days who think also is on Newgrounds. But like they did music for Shovel Knight and other things. Okay.
00:39:00
Speaker
But they do lots of video gamey chipdune and they've been doing stuff forever. there no, no. Jake Kaufman, I think is the the actual name. Okay.
00:39:13
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Alright, we're getting autofills. I think this is correct.
00:39:18
Speaker
His name was Jake and he coughed. Worked on a lot of games actually. ah Contra 4, Red Faction Guerrilla, DuckTales Remastered, Shovel Knight, and Crypt of the Necrodancer.
00:39:34
Speaker
So ah pretty popular in the indie space. And yes, Mina the Hollower. Yep, yep, yep. But yeah, so far it's felt very tight as far as like it is a dense game.
00:39:52
Speaker
Like it's not felt like they've wasted any space. So for me, big plus. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
And Qbert. And even just watching like, going to launch the game for the first time. They have like a custom cut scene for it that does like a different art style that's not specifically the game. um And things like that just they take a lot more effort and there there was some love behind it to invest that.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always nice when you get something that's like... got intentionality to the design and it's clearly just people that still have ideas and it's not just you know pumping out something for money um not that there's nothing wrong with making money but you know ideally you also have some creative talent yeah go alongside it let's say similar to um silk song apparently some of their dev experience was
00:40:57
Speaker
The reason they kept postponing the game is because they kept thinking of like other things that they wanted to add into it. Uh-huh. Yeah. So
Creative Freedom in Game Design
00:41:06
Speaker
if you're generating, wouldn't it be cool if ideas for something? You're invested.
00:41:13
Speaker
And it is nice to have like... but to have studios that feel that have like financial support, I guess, like in this case, if they were coming off of Shovel Knight, it probably I know it did really well. Right. So like to have the the breathing room to keep asking that question, wouldn't it be cool if and not like be forced to push something out the door, you know, really early or this game, and it's not an early access or anything like that. Right. It's just they launch straight to 1.0.
00:41:47
Speaker
oh Yeah, I believe it released for PC, Switch, Switch 2. Yeah. Some other stuff. Yeah. I mean, like, that's awesome to see, too. Like, not no shade to games, indies that need to launch into early access and then kind of fully realize their vision.
00:42:06
Speaker
But if you have the breathing room to, like, do all the work up front and then just have something awesome, excellent. I think this is out as of June 6th. So a week ago as of recording.
00:42:21
Speaker
It was pretty ru pretty recent at the very least. um So, yeah, well, I'm glad that it's found its footing and people are really enjoying it.
00:42:33
Speaker
Now, the question is, well when do they get added to Rivals? Mm-hmm. Okay, right. I mean, they just added ah Cyclops, apparently.
00:42:44
Speaker
So um he's got a very powerful ultimate. He kind of just like drags a laser from the ground to the sky, and then it explodes and kills everybody. Does a lot of damage. Jin Kazama? Devil Jin specifically? I don't know. i have i have a feeling that the original X-Men Cyclops might have actually come out before the Tekken. soon as Cyclops, my brain went to Hades 2. was like, okay, it's like this size Cyclops.
00:43:21
Speaker
That's the character. Yeah, i I don't really keep up with Marvel rivals, but occasionally um i see content for it. and i'm like, that looks like it'd be difficult to play. or There's too much mobility in this game for me or something like that. It's the other reason I can't play like Deadlock.
00:43:37
Speaker
um the The content that I see for Deadlock is people like... yeeting themselves across the map instantly to like 360 suplex somebody through a trans-dimensional portal off of a skyscraper and i'm like i it didn't seem like you were in the lane i guess like are you allowed to do that like i don't know yeah i for stuff like that i really struggle with the the balance of I should be doing last hitting now, or I should be doing like a side objective, which I guess would be like hitting a small camp or breaking some boxes or urns for some currency. Or if I should just be trying to like trade blows with people because maybe I have something i can use to harass them out of lane. I don't know.
00:44:29
Speaker
I just, the thing for me is like, at least for Dota, there was some sort of understanding about the pace that someone could arrive in your game and you're lane to gank you or something like that. And maybe like you didn't do a great job or your team didn't get do a good job of calling missing, so you're a little bit surprised. But like,
00:44:49
Speaker
From what I see in deadlock, it's more like the experience that like a hair in a prairie, like a small bunny in a prairie experiences when like a bald eagle appears and just like swoops down and grabs like deadlock is fast. There
Game Review: 'Haste' and Speed Dynamics
00:45:04
Speaker
are people who just like yeet themselves across the skyline to zero a person and then keep going. It's like, I don't, am I too old? might just be too old for this. yeah I don't know. i don't know.
00:45:20
Speaker
cool characters, but it's definitely very kinetic. They were going for a very kinetic type of experience. Yeah. It's... I really like the idea of it because RTS is a fun type of game mode and allows for having the opportunity to design those cool, unique characters that all kind of play in their own style.
00:45:44
Speaker
It's just that they added... rts More... what do you mean by RTS? ah What's Dota? A MOBA? MOBA, thank you. You got none of the letters.
00:46:00
Speaker
I was going to let you cook for a little bit, and then you started to like switch it into the next thing. I was like, I don't know if he's still thinking about RTS. In my head, I'm like, this is a gamer word. This sounds about right. Let's keep going. Dota is arguably more of an RTS, I would say, than than Deadlock is.
00:46:15
Speaker
True. Yeah. But it's the the degree of verticality. m Because it's not like, hey, there's the flat ground plane of existence. Oh, there's the sky plane of existence.
00:46:28
Speaker
um There's a lot of different structures and like buildings and bridges, stairs, ramps, other stuff. um And for me, it's visually dense.
00:46:41
Speaker
Right. To kind of like make out um the exact layout versus when somebody is approaching me or they could be hiding behind something. Mm hmm.
00:46:53
Speaker
A lot of that probably is just I would need to play it more to get a good feel for it. Yeah. But I could definitely see somebody new coming in and having a similar experience where it's like.
00:47:05
Speaker
What's happening? Yeah. It is kind of funny, right? Because like we think of Dota as a very um dense game. It's difficult to learn as a newcomer, right? Because there's just so much information. There's so many items. There's so many characters. You could play limited heroes to reduce some of that. But like there's so much information to learn going into the game.
00:47:27
Speaker
And Deadlock, to its credit, like it's not like... ah My impression, at least, is not that the itemization is nearly as crazy as it is in Dota. It doesn't have as many of those elements. But... The sheer introduction of like the Z axis is just like crazy from a game sense perspective. Right. Like it's like when I play Deadlock,
00:47:53
Speaker
the buildings were walls to me. Right? Like I was not thinking of rooftops and being above other people. It's just like, ah, there's a building here, so I can't go that direction. It's an obstruction, nothing more. Exactly. Exactly. but like, from what I've seen, the community has evolved beyond that somewhat drastically, um which is awesome. Right. But kudos to having a high skill cap and skill expression cap. Um,
00:48:24
Speaker
I don't want to be matched against those people. Yeah. I'm just sitting over here like slowly putting the crane my nose like while people are doing mlg stuff and deadlock clips. Blueberry actually smells like blueberries.
00:48:41
Speaker
The snozzberries taste like snozzberries. Yeah. um But yeah, really respect it. Definitely earned as the ah the next game with the most wish lists on Steam after Subnautica 2.
00:48:59
Speaker
Speaking of, ahha what are your thoughts on Haste now that i finally I finally trapped you? Yeah. I bought the game like a while ago. i think I've had it.
00:49:13
Speaker
um It's really good. i'm I'm really enjoying my time with it. I don't know. this is very meta. I don't know if there's like enough to talk about in the game to take up an entire episode.
00:49:27
Speaker
And that's the most important thing that a game can do is be like, how how can I how can I mine you for content for Soapstone? um But it's like a really polished experience.
00:49:38
Speaker
um I really like the art style. The music is just like absolute banger. Like, I think the last game I played that I was like, crap, this some of these tracks hit really hard was like RoboQuest.
00:49:52
Speaker
don't know if you saw me mouth that in the camera. like It's RoboQuest. Yeah, it's freaking RoboQuest. But like some of it's just really good. But also like, I don't know. It exactly fits into what we were talking with like core indie games, understanding where they excel and just driving that home. No pun intended with acceleration, but like that is haste, right?
00:50:19
Speaker
Yeah, they're like, again, I'll say this a million times. This is the same developer who did Cluster Truck. And in both games, they have ah speed equal fun as kind of like their their core idea and they made it like a procedural runner game that is super fucking fun yeah and as you were saying towards the music i think both in roboquest and definitely this the music really helps drive
00:50:55
Speaker
And like it matches the speed that you want to be at. Right. Exactly. Because there's so many times like I will be playing and I'll have like a slower track and I hit the snow. I'm like, yeah, this seems right. And then I get something very like crazy and upbeat. And I'm like, this also seems to weirdly fit the vibe. don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:51:18
Speaker
There's a specific I know we're talking about Haste, not RoboQuest, but the comparison kind of is in RoboQuest, they would have ah they have music where the layering will like drop basically when you enter a combat arena. So you would do you'd be like doing inventory management or whatever, picking up items in a safe zone. and then enter a combat arena, and then it's like, bam, bam, bam, and it just hits immediately, and you're like, oh, yeah, okay, let's go.
00:51:47
Speaker
And Haste is very much the same because it's not a zero downtime game. like There are there's shopping and talking to NPCs and stuff like that, and i get hit with that maybe a little bit more than I would like to, but like the only alternative I can think of is they hit you with a freaking a Star Fox 64 and like have...
00:52:08
Speaker
NPC dialogue like coming across the screen while you're trying to play and for this game it would be impossible like it would get you killed more than it got you killed when Slippy was talking to you in Star Fox 64 so like um I understand why they didn't do it um but otherwise when you load into like one of these new maps music kicks up immediately you start running immediately like you're straight into it um
00:52:39
Speaker
And you were talking about how like you were talking about how in some ways it does Sonic the Hedgehog better than Sonic the Hedgehog does. I'm curious what you mean by that. And I have my own thoughts on what you probably meant by that to see if they're right.
00:52:55
Speaker
So Sonic is also a game that has been like fast equals fun. Right. So they're trying to capitalize on that with initially it was 2D side scrolling games. They did some 3D games.
00:53:09
Speaker
Most recently they had a more open thing with Frontiers. But it's like a Sonic go fast and then Sonic take break and do weird puzzle. Mm hmm.
00:53:21
Speaker
It just felt like there I haven't played. I've only watched. But it's on the game. Well, ah Frontiers. Okay. i was going to say, like, yeah I know you've at least played Sonic Adventure Battle. I'm pretty sure you have a shrine to it in your house somewhere. So, like, you found it.
00:53:39
Speaker
But no, like the. Oh, no. Train of thought. Gone. That's OK. I think the pace of movement in Frontiers. I'm sure it feels good to run around.
00:53:53
Speaker
But then as far as like the way the gameplay works for combat or other things versus in haste, you're constantly running unless you ramped off of something.
00:54:05
Speaker
And now just through momentum, you are flying. right You're basically just choosing when to come back down. h ah to try and keep your momentum to get to the end fast so you don't get eaten by the world ending behind you. Yeah, right, because your death wall is approaching behind you. It's your incentive to keep running forward as well as getting like an S rank. You want to get to the end pretty quickly.
00:54:32
Speaker
But like for me, the biggest hype moment for Sonic was Sonic Adventure Battle 2. You start off with City Escape. You're running down a hill as like a giant truck is chasing you. And it has like the driving music. You're trying to like not hit cars. You're sliding on your board.
00:54:50
Speaker
It's a lot of... hype action and movement based. And I feel like haste is the only game I've seen do that. And it feels just super smooth to play. hmm.
00:55:03
Speaker
And I feel like if you added like a spin dash in there or something else from Sonic, it wouldn't feel out of place. Yeah. Mechanically. Yeah, I think what's kind of funny.
00:55:14
Speaker
um Well, one, like I agree with what you're saying with Sonic. I actually have like specific grievances. i played ah I played a good amount of Sonic games, a lot of the classic ones and things like, you know, Sonic 2, Tails, Knuckles, all that stuff. Sonic 3, Tails, Knuckles as Sonic CD. And even like during the originating, the source Sonic games, like there is a dichotomy. There's there's ah a mixed up language.
00:55:40
Speaker
There's Sonic the platformer and then Sonic the go fast type game. And usually if you're playing those games like efficiently, you just understand when you're in a straightaway what your exit is going to be. And then you go back to platforming because you can't like fight enemies in whatever capacity exists in these games while really still going fast. Some of them try a little bit more with like, you know, lock on, spin dash, things like that. Other things make it a little bit easier.
00:56:08
Speaker
But for the most part, it's just two different games kind of like at the same time. It's just a platformer. And then sometimes you just go really fast. You're going through loop-de-loops and things like that. You're getting actually spend-dash and things like that.
00:56:21
Speaker
And it always feels cool to go super fast, but it's never controllable, right? It's never something that you really... It's going too fast to actually like have input decisions.
00:56:33
Speaker
And so it's almost like it kind of cuts to a cut scene mid gameplay. Yes. You get a break basically when it's one of those areas where Sonic can go really quickly.
00:56:44
Speaker
little little hand stretcher. Exactly. And like haste is basically a racing game. Like that is the type of game that it is because like the things that I compare it to are like 1080 snowboarding, like where you're just going downhill and the goal is to get to the bottom very quickly or like Need for Speed Carbon where you're just going downhill. The goal is to get to the bottom really quickly.
00:57:11
Speaker
And in those ways, it is a racing game, right? Like, yeah, um I didnt think about that way. Building off of that. Yeah, I think another thing that makes the game kind of hype and kind of fits in with those other games is having ramps.
00:57:26
Speaker
Mm hmm. Because like even in Ski Freak, it was like a huge boost of speed, a big airtime and it kind of breaks up the gameplay. it's not just you running, but Hayes specifically has so many ramps yeah where it never feels like, oh, I went off.
00:57:46
Speaker
Here's where I have to go next. This is the only place I can go. It's like, where do you want to go? Because there are going to be a lot of viable options depending on how you're moving your character.
00:57:57
Speaker
Or if you move poorly, it could be a bad option. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where like I feel like it really does contribute to this space, even though it's an indie that's hyper focused on this, is there there are so many obstacles and sometimes it actually makes the most sense. Usually the game is kind of incentivizing you with rewards to take risky routes, but you're pathfinding through the entire game. It's just launching into landing, launching into landing, picking a path going forward. it'll reward you with like the fragment currencies. If you're, you know, sometimes taking little risky routes or boost rings and things like that. And other times it's like, that just looks like death. It looks like there are so many lasers here. I'm going to avoid the entire thing and I'm just going to launch and skim myself off the map a little bit and then just come back in. I've definitely done some side skirting. Yeah.
00:58:51
Speaker
And sometimes it's the right play. Cause it's like, you know, losing a life over it isn't worth it. You know, that's going to hurt your score even more. um And I mean, they they do ta they they tack more things onto that that we haven't talked about. Like the sort of like route planning, ah Slay the Spire-esque pick your event nodes sort of map.
00:59:16
Speaker
um Which is cool and non-obtrusive. um And i like the ah I like the option to just pick the entire route at once and then just send It's so fun. Just send it.
00:59:27
Speaker
um Also, but like... removing something that they would have to do every time feels so good like when we found out the rivals feature that you could just do a run it back just going back to the menu picking our characters again picking the stages again loading in again it's just boop there you go yeah Yeah, and in haste, like, you just don't ever see the map again if you picked the entire route at the beginning. If you went from, like, one fragment where you're running to another map where you're running, you just load into the next map. there is there's There's nothing else there to stop you.
01:00:08
Speaker
um Which is really smart because, again, the game is so tempo-based. Again, like my only grievance really so far is the NPCs keep talking to me. And I'm like, I want to pay attention to this because I know this is the way that you're telling me the story to an extent, you know, or getting to know the personality of the characters. But also understand this is the exact opposite of going fast. I am doing nothing but reading dialogue and hitting next.
01:00:37
Speaker
but Yeah, I...
01:00:41
Speaker
For me personally, i don't really care about the characters or story. The gameplay is just so, so nice for me. I do think that they needed to have something so that it wasn't just.
01:00:57
Speaker
I'm going into number one to do levels randomly, and it's just there's no world building at all. and I honestly don't have a better suggestion as far as well, actually, if they did this, this character would be more relatable.
01:01:11
Speaker
I don't know. Because honestly, like the only the only thing I can think of that would have worked better in my mind might not have been feasible for the studio, which would have been actually have voice acted in PCs and they do talk to you over the course of a fragment.
01:01:29
Speaker
Because then you could just be listening to them telling you about the world, the interaction with the protagonist and stuff like that. um And it would be less obtrusive. But then you're also paying for voice acting and all of that. So maybe not feasible um in this particular instance.
01:01:46
Speaker
um And some of the character designs also give me the impression like that these characters have a lot of personality. Like if if you if you if you were just told to imagine a kind of like world hopping, dimension hopping courier um that runs really fast, I can pretty much guarantee that very few people envision what the protagonist of Haste looks like. Like really, really like almost 70s-esque fluffy pants and full rimmed glasses. Like it looks like she should be reading in the library.
01:02:23
Speaker
Who's...
Conclusion: Supporting Indie Games and Community
01:02:24
Speaker
There's a character from an old Sega character.
01:02:31
Speaker
Klonoa? i have no idea what that is. That sounds Hawaiian. I want you to Google Klonoa real quick. K-L-O-N-O-A. Okay. Hopefully everybody's... Yes. Yeah, this character.
01:02:47
Speaker
Biggs the Cat. Genderbent Biggs the Cat is what we're looking at here. But basically they have like the two big floppy ears and then puffs at the, at the end.
01:02:58
Speaker
Yeah. That's kind of the main characters vibe. Yeah. I think this is, this is pretty accurate. Um, Game Boy advanced. Wow. Yeah. And PlayStation.
01:03:10
Speaker
Um, But yeah the game the game is good, and it's it's fun. And I would kind of like... When picking the genre to roughly put it into... like I talked about it being a racer, but the overall vibe and engagement is it's like... It's an arcade game. It feels like an arcade game where you just pick it up. You play it for a bit. You have some fun.
01:03:29
Speaker
You put it down. You don't have to no-life it. um It also supports co-op, which... you know, we don't have to go into like crazy detail about, but that is really cool. Being to play through it with Dave.
01:03:41
Speaker
He's generally faster than I am, but then I looked at his screen and it looks like he has upgrades I don't have. I'm like, okay, I don't feel too bad about it now. Some of that, yeah. well Because the way it works is both things are instanced. So you'll each have your separate scores.
01:03:58
Speaker
The more sparks you collect and faster time you get, the more in-game currency you'll get for the run. And then at shops, you can... just even if you don't need them, just getting multiple items, usually effects will tend to stack.
01:04:15
Speaker
But if you're just doing playing through the game business as usual, I find that the the passive items just help. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes like the passives feel like they contribute a lot depending on exactly what you're encountering as a difficulty.
01:04:34
Speaker
Like there are times where, ah you know, it was a area where I was taking more damage or whatever. And if I had like three healing passives, That was a lot better for me.
01:04:46
Speaker
There was a specific callout time where we were fighting a boss. And again, Dave, generally better at the game than me. had zero healing because I had gobbled all of the healing items up apparently in the preceding jumps.
01:04:58
Speaker
And I was like, oh, it's great. Dave, that's a second ah perfect landing. Heals me each time. That'll heal me twice as much when I get a perfect landing. Dave over here, like desiccated husk. Yeah, good for you, buddy.
01:05:12
Speaker
So I just kind of like, you know, out sustained the boss occasionally, basically playing it safe and healing. um or as Dave died but I died plenty of times too so it all balances out that's why I didn't talk any shit when you went into the Sarlacc pit for the first time the first time I did it I was like oh this is an interesting level generation is this going to like loop back through yeah and you're dead and you're dead good game for sure yeah I'm glad we got to play it together yeah it was a good time
01:05:49
Speaker
But if you guys want a good time, you can play any of these games. Call us now. Yeah. All of these games that we'll list out in the show notes, we call them now, to be more prestigious.
01:06:03
Speaker
And ah yeah, a lot of definitely recommended indies. We talked about a lot of games, actually, this time. And if you have recommendations for new games, send them in. you know Can't guarantee we'll well we' drop money on it.
01:06:16
Speaker
That stuff's expensive. And if it's free, we're not interested in that either. Because who who who releases a good free game? Just go back like two episodes and talk about Poco and all that. but um Who in their right mind releases it? Exactly. We want the insane free good games. Skyrim Conversion Mod Enderall. Check that one out too. i'm not going to put a link to it.
01:06:37
Speaker
um But... Thank you guys for listening. And as always, we'll see in the next one. Have a good one.