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Landing Agency Clients with Dani Dufresne
148 Plays1 month ago
If you’re a production company trying to land agency work, this episode is your tactical playbook. Dani Dufresne, founder of The Aux Co, a fractional production operations team helping modern agencies execute bold ideas without the bloat of in-house production. With deep experience on both the agency and production sides, Dani shares what’s really happening behind the curtain. She explains how agencies are buying, what they’re actually looking for, and what production partners get wrong and right when pitching.
We talk about what it means to go fractional, how to build embedded trust with agencies, and why calling yourself an “agency” on your own website might be killing your chances. If you want to understand what it takes to sell to agencies in today’s market, what gets attention, what closes deals, and what red flags to avoid, this episode gives you the inside edge. Whether you’re rethinking your positioning, tired of being ghosted, or just curious what it takes to stand out, Dani’s honest and actionable advice will sharpen your sales approach.
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Transcript
Introduction to Crossing the Axis
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Keblis.
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning in to the show.
Direct-to-Brand Approach in Business Development
00:00:27
Speaker
If you're a frequent listener of this podcast, you know I got a bias when it comes to business development for production companies. I tend to favor the direct-to-brand approach.
00:00:36
Speaker
Primarily that's because it's the space I know best and where I've had the most success. building a book of clients without the agency layers. That said, I've done enough work with agencies to know that the right collaboration can be just as fantastic, sometimes even more so.
00:00:49
Speaker
That's because agencies take on that heavy lift of strategy and creative development, selling bold ideas through to clients, which is really hard to do. And when a production partner is brought in at the right time, it can be a really powerful collaboration.
00:01:02
Speaker
You get to focus on the craft and make some killer work. But it's a different beast trying to get that agency business. That's a game I've often thought was best played by a good sales rep because they dedicate themselves to building and maintaining trusted relationships in a highly competitive environment.
00:01:16
Speaker
But I'm always curious when I see someone taking a fresh approach to attracting new business.
Fractional Production Concept
00:01:20
Speaker
And that's what caught my eye about Dani Dufresne and her team at the Auxiliary Company, or Oxco for short. Dani isn't trying to attract agency work in the traditional sense.
00:01:28
Speaker
Rather, she seems to be rethinking the entire model for how agencies and production teams collaborate. She's calling it fractional production, and it's a structure that appears to live somewhere between outsourcing and in-house.
00:01:40
Speaker
What makes Oxco's approach stand out to me is how grounded it is in service. While they do lead with flash and style, it's less look at us and more we see you. I think they do a good job highlighting the problem and inviting the viewer into the solution.
00:01:54
Speaker
They lead with how they support the client. It's this customer-first mindset that makes the whole fractional model feel not just strategic, but authentic. So I invited Dani on the show to unpack it all.
00:02:07
Speaker
Dani brings years of experience from many sides of the business and comes prepared with a crystal clear point of view and practical advice. So let's get into it.
Founding Oxco: Balancing Creativity with Efficiency
00:02:16
Speaker
Dani Dufresne, welcome to the show.
00:02:17
Speaker
Thank you. Glad to be here. So did you start Oxco with a little bit of a chip on your shoulder and something to prove?
00:02:26
Speaker
No, I think it's mainly the opposite. I think I started the AuxCo not knowing what I wanted the AuxCo to be, but seeing this gap in the industry where everyone was sort of focused on how can we make things cheaper and more affordable and efficient, but not while also so keeping the creative strong, while also making sure that it's holding up the creative bar for the agencies and the clients.
00:02:49
Speaker
That's sort of always been that my goal is to make sure that not only can you get it done and get it done well and fast, and as affordable as possible, but done in the best possible way. Like have a product at the end that you're all very proud of.
00:03:03
Speaker
So let me make sure understand the problem that you were seeing. So when you were working on the in the agency and you're doing production in the agency for campaigns that you sold through, you were seeing a problem with the amount of money being spent on it or the resources being spent on it or people were selling ideas through.
00:03:22
Speaker
Describe to me a little bit more of that problem and then turn that into how that inspired this fractional approach that you're talking about.
Challenges with Large Agency Models
00:03:29
Speaker
Well, I found that the bigger ah holding company agencies i would say I tended to be at, especially the ones that didn't have a lot of creative power or weight behind them, and they they were more just trying to do you know they were trying to do great work. But you know I was running creative departments, helping through the pitches, making sure that you know what was actually viable with production. And then it felt like as soon as it was time to go execute, I was expected to find an in-house editor. or
00:03:55
Speaker
like i was basically expected to figure out the cheapest possible way to execute something regardless of if it was the right way. So I once had a finance director ask me like why I needed to pay a production company for this particular project. And it's just that the idea of finding the best artist to bring your ideas to life was kind of gone. It didn't matter anymore. Everyone was trying to make their own little agency studio in-house or we don't...
00:04:20
Speaker
The focus was on the P&L and not on the creative, right? If you're an agency and you're doing a ton of different kinds of work, it doesn't help you to have one amazing beauty photographer on staff, right? If that's not what you're doing all the time. And there's ah there's a world for these like more basic editors and kind of the standard things, but you need to be able to take a fresh approach to every single brief, right?
00:04:44
Speaker
And every creative idea versus, you know, hiring the same people all the time or using the same in-house staff all the time, because then you're really just making the same thing over and over
Diversity in Creative Teams
00:04:53
Speaker
and over again. And you're also not inspiring these creatives with what can actually be done, right? I think I was seeing a lot of EPs that I was working with, like very veterans, hiring the same production company over and over and over and over again know real like value. I mean, it wasn't like they were giving huge deals. It was more of, oh, it was easy.
00:05:14
Speaker
it's It's comfortable. It's easy. Yeah, but it's just the it's ah same as your in-house team is not always the people that are going to give you the best possible work. it The same can be true for if someone knows you're going to hire them all the time, what they have no need to like push the boundaries or come up with new ideas or cut you deals or be flexible with things. And I think that and was where I was seeing a lot of disconnect, especially as I love working with up and coming directors and really like scalable or like slim teams that can kind of do a bunch of different things. I was used to working in that space.
00:05:47
Speaker
And, you know, you just find creative teams and production in-house production teams that just don't even have time to look for new people or look at new vendors or consider, i mean, consider what they would do. You know, if anything was possible, who would they hire instead of just sort of checking the box because they don't have time or they weren't even taught to do that.
00:06:07
Speaker
All right. So let me see if I understand this then. So you're suggesting that the problem is if you're an agency and you have in-house production, you just have this limited group of of team members who perhaps may have a certain skill and be good at some things, but you're selling ideas through that go beyond those skills and those expertise. And therefore, if you're asking them to work on these projects where they're not the best at it, then you're coming up short in what can be made for what you sold through. And to try to have all of those resources on staff would be prohibitively expensive. So this area between you can't have enough people on staff to make it cost effective to cover all of the things you're selling through versus the need to have more versatility for the ideas you sell through is where the ox co and fractional production comes to life.
Oxco's Flexible Production Model
00:06:53
Speaker
Exactly. If the goal is to have creative teams, like creatives on staff that can come up with anything, right? Like you're not giving them a list of things. You can only come up with these ideas. Then why have the execution be that boxed in So there's no need to say, well, all we we can only pitch events or we can only pitch stuff that's an animation, whatever it is. Like you wouldn't do that. That's a different service. That's basically saying...
00:07:17
Speaker
I'm a production company of XYZ, which let the production companies do that. That's why that these people have these like particular niches. But ah they were seeing that as the budgets were shrinking and these bigger holding companies were needing to still charge 40% overhead, in and their mind, having those people in staff was as like a solution to them.
00:07:36
Speaker
But you can't have a low cost junior editor that you're going to want to do all of your work. Like across the board, they're just not going to have that skill set. And I think not thinking about everything just sitting on the P&L, but finding ways to keep overhead low and have the resources that you need at the same time and you know on demand is really what i where I was trying to find a fit.
00:07:57
Speaker
Then let's describe how this how this actually structurally works. So a typical relationship might be if they do if an agency doesn't have in house, they sell an idea through they write a creative brief, they put it out to a few production companies they know the production companies give some treatment backs, they pick one and they go make something you're suggesting something different at that intersection, right? Where what is it you're brought in earlier? Or is there something how's it different for fractional production?
00:08:25
Speaker
So the current model is assuming that the agency has come up with the entire idea. They know everything, exactly how everything needs to be. They put everything together, then go sell it to the client and get the money moving. And then they can go out to to production companies and start getting bids.
00:08:42
Speaker
That then leaves this huge opportunity to where like production companies are just being given a plan. Like they're being given basically like instructions or like, here's what I want the final model to look like. And then they have to go and build it.
00:08:56
Speaker
By that point, there's very little change that can be made. You know, if there's certain parts of the production that the agency didn't really have enough expertise in, right? There's not a lot of places you can streamline and go back and reassemble the plan to try to make it more efficient. Right.
00:09:09
Speaker
based on the budget or whatever. And there's this just an opportunity missed for really thinking about XY the best way to execute this, right? So like, I think I want this to be a video. So I'm going to ideate it as a commercial and I'm going to go and hire commercial production companies.
00:09:25
Speaker
But if there was production expertise earlier on flushing out the idea, making sure that it actually made sense for that medium, or was there more things that could be done or a different approach based on the timeline or budget, that is when the impact can be made.
00:09:40
Speaker
But too many agencies don't have that expertise in-house. Or if they do, maybe it's expertise on one particular thing, or they have one very, very overstretched producer who's like an EP doing everything that they
Strategic Partnerships with Agencies
00:09:52
Speaker
shouldn't be doing.
00:09:52
Speaker
And then, you know, they're kind of looking for answers from a production company that they then hire. And the production company is like, you were supposed to, you're supposed to already know these things. Like you're bringing it to me, I'm asking you and you're going, oo I don't know.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I, so in this way that I was seeing the disconnect where, the expectations and assumptions that agencies make about production companies and vice versa. It was just this gap of information, but also opportunity. So what my team is able to do is we embed with smaller agencies that either don't have any in-house production expertise, or maybe they have you know, staff that's just pretty overloaded or junior staff.
00:10:29
Speaker
And we help them during the pitch process, during the creative development process. What's something going to cost? What's the best? Is this the best way to do this? Could you take this and make an event and a video and this like what else could we be doing? Because whereas a production company specializes in the one thing that they do well, one style of thing that they do, agency EP is like myself and agency producers,
00:10:52
Speaker
We've produced everything. We know how to make anything. So it's kind of more of just widening your plane of view a little bit more so that they could they know what's actually on the table because sometimes they just get used to pitching the same stuff and they don't have that support you know earlier on. So we come on earlier to help sort of flush all that out.
00:11:09
Speaker
Because we'll be brought in once like creative's been sort of done, but the clients that end up working with us the longest and kind of get it, they there's a trust built there that they know if they bring us in, we're not just saying, okay, you said you want one shoot day, it's one shoot day. No, we go back and we look at the brief. We go back and we look at the idea. We look at actually what you're trying to achieve and we replan everything.
00:11:30
Speaker
We question everything and then and rebuild it up because the way that a creative director or someone might think they should approach it may not be the best way to actually do it. You're trying to figure out either how to stress test um some ideas to see if they work or plus up ideas or think about how the client's goals match with the execution of the creative, if that's even possible. Will it land? Are you thinking about media buy? Are you thinking about, well, hey, this is a social first campaign, so why are we doing it this way? Social first needs to go this way. It's a very different animal. So
00:12:03
Speaker
It's everything from, you know, everything that a great agency EP and a great agency production department can do for an agency, we really provide. So it's consulting during the pitch. It's helping to educate more junior athletes.
00:12:19
Speaker
ad teams and creative teams about, you know, okay, yeah, you have this idea, but I'm going to, I'm going poke some holes in it so that you realize it's not actually going to, it's not going to appear on screen the way that you think it will. And really trying to just shake the tree as hard as possible so that by the time we are going out and finding the best teams to execute it. We have come up with every single solution to every possible problem.
00:12:41
Speaker
And we've also like bulletproofed the plan in a way that like, it's not just what, well, I think we need this. So we'll go make that. It's really getting the most out of any idea because you're having just that that production brain to sort of bounce ideas off of.
00:12:55
Speaker
So I love this idea of this kind of, ah you know, this hot seat of an EP perspective on the whole thing as early as possible, I'm assuming is what you want to um get in at. Do you pitch agencies like, hey, bring us in early. This is how we can help.
00:13:11
Speaker
And do you then charge for that bit? um in in the beginning or do you do collaborate? And then when you get to a certain point, if you start having to really roll up your sleeves and do more, that's when you charge? Like where do you find that balance and how do you talk to potential clients about that?
00:13:26
Speaker
I try and push for us to be brought in as early as possible, but that really helps me not getting, being treated like a production partner and production company where I'm just being given a brief and here we just need you to make this because that's not, there's very little benefit I can do there, but very little change I can make to a plan if it's already been sold into the clients. So because of that, we really partner with them on the pitch. We're working for free just like they are to get the work. We're helping them put together the best pitch package possible.
00:13:54
Speaker
And that way they're not like coming up with bold ideas. And then the moment they sell it in, they're like, oh crap, we don't know how to actually go do this. Right. And then they have to go find production companies and then they're instantly three weeks late.
00:14:05
Speaker
So I am, I'm trying, and I think this is the part of disrupting a model is getting agencies to think about it differently. Right. And this is one of the they instantly are like, oh, we can't afford you. We'll wait until we have this perfectly packaged idea and then we'll call you.
00:14:19
Speaker
That doesn't work when you just call up production companies because it's not actually as packaged well as they think it is because they don't have that expertise. But also it's it's the opportunity to like bring new ideas forward. And a lot of times that's how we are able to work. We partner during pitches and then we help sell it through and then we'll help scale the entire operation. We do a lot of creative operations if we need to bring in additional creative teams.
00:14:44
Speaker
And then we bring in all the right partners that are very specific to that brief. I like to say that we start at a complete empty board, you know a white page with every brief. And we think of new people, new ways to do it. What are people doing right now? It's not really this stamp, pre-molded approach that a lot of places take.
00:15:03
Speaker
I see the opportunity to sell into clients here. It seems really smart to me. I see the need. I see agencies that have this need and they really could use that production executive producer support from the very beginning. I think it serves their clients really well. think it serves them well.
00:15:20
Speaker
And I can see how you could talk to them about why they need to bring you in on this. I think it's compelling. Do you ever do things like, do you have case studies of before and after, not of the entire campaign, but of the before and after of the intake brief, right? This is how ah this client thought of it first.
00:15:37
Speaker
Then we came in and this is how we thought of it afterwards. And this is what was sold through. I mean, that seems so compelling to me. I mean, I do. I have a lot of examples of that. I should put it together in a document, but then it seems like I don't want to be throwing anyone under the bus about their ideas. They don't know any better, I think. is they is right Typically, I get calls because someone hasn't brought me in early early enough and something has been sold into the client that is not possible and they are SOL and call me just begging for help. And I'm like, okay, I know.
00:16:09
Speaker
I have no problem with agencies... doing it the wrong way to realize they need to bring me in early first, right? That's fine. you know I understand their unwillingness sometimes to do that. you know There's a lot of ego there. they don't want to bring in other you know ideas. They don't want to bring in anyone else. And we're really egoless. we really have I've worked with every type of creative director and creative team there really is. And it's more about figuring out what the actual like nugget of The idea is.
00:16:36
Speaker
And a lot of times that is completely separate from the execution. And there's lots of different ways to get you there that that they've not even experienced or thought of, or even just like in my presenting potential directors or DPs or whoever.
00:16:51
Speaker
they will see work that inspires them because they think about something in a particular way. We don't really have the time anymore or the budgets to, okay, we're going to hire this director and then he's going to spend a month coming up with a treatment and they're going to come back. And the time in which the the production company and the director did all of that pre-pro work for the the agency is over. That doesn't happen anymore in 90% of the work.
00:17:16
Speaker
At the same time, they don't know how to speak to production companies either. So there's a lot of like... you know It's a lot of educating people in what's possible, what's how how much time stuff takes. Have you thought about it this way? And it really started as just me consulting and as a consultant. And then I realized as I you know started working more and more with these ah small agencies that are coming in and competing with their agencies so well right now Because they don't have the overhead. They may not even have an office. They just have brilliant creatives and, you know, and they can pitch amazing work because it's not going to cost the client 50% more take that risk. So I love empowering those teams with the knowledge they need or with the the resourcing that they need, because I think that's where the best work is being done right now.
Advantages of Smaller Agencies
00:17:59
Speaker
Yeah, I just did an episode recently that was all about how smaller agencies actually have an advantage over holding company agencies and and and that taps into it. I strongly recommend anybody listen to that if they're interested interested in that topic. I did. It was a very good episode.
00:18:13
Speaker
I thought it was really interesting. There's also some really good um tips in there about what conferences to go to for in-house and how to get all that business. It was really interesting. But I do think the smaller shops are having a moment. I think it's a time to shine. and so...
00:18:28
Speaker
Especially when it comes to production, especially when it comes to production, because a lot of the larger agencies are are getting it off their plates completely because the only reason that a you know an Ogilvy or a giant agency has these huge retainer clients that they have is because they're agreeing to insane budgets that you know an insane 120-day net pays and just crazy things. And so they actually can't take the overhead on production.
00:18:53
Speaker
production and paying for all of that upfront. Whereas a small agency can, they can really, if they are really planned and precise in how they do What's the team at Oxco right now? um We are really scalable. We have anywhere from um three to five of us. It's dependent. When we have clients on retainer, we have producers that are embedded to a certain percentage of their you know of hours for those clients. So they're just at their call. they They have emails for that agency. They embed fully so that they can be treated just like staff. So they can be any one-off questions and they're not worrying about you know the meter running, if you will.
00:19:29
Speaker
And then the majority of cost come from the actual hard cost of the job. So we work, we build out the budgets, and then most of our time is factored into that actual hard cost production budget.
00:19:40
Speaker
So that helps the team, that helps the agencies keep their overhead really low. And then we have agency producers that are staff, but we also sort of scale based on the type of you know the type of projects we're working on, whether that be like events or visual effects or whatever it is, we have a very deep bench of those talents too, that we'll bring on specifically for certain clients. Because I always want to make sure that the producers embedded with our clients match their style of work and their sort of ethos.
00:20:08
Speaker
What is the ideal client profile for you then? Are you going after small agencies, medium-sized agencies, are particular kinds of agencies? What's your target?
Targeting Small to Medium-Sized Agencies
00:20:19
Speaker
Small to medium, um that the smaller, more nimble agencies that maybe have, you know, a creative team and an account person, or, you know, maybe they think they're medium, but they're still kind of small. Maybe they've got about 10 to 20 people, you know, maybe even they have one producer, but it's just really someone that does smaller level stuff or one particular kind of stuff. And they need expertise in more of various kinds of production, especially as these smaller agencies also find themselves pitching work that they they need to be able to show that they have a wider set of offerings. Gone are really the days of, well, I'm just going all we're going to do is the rebrand and then we're going to hand it off to this agency and they're going to hand that off to that agency. That doesn't
00:20:59
Speaker
happen anymore because it's leaving too much money on the table. So what I really will do, and especially that my partner agencies that I embed it with really early, is I'll look at an entire ah RFP and scope and break everything down for them, including their in-house staffing and creative teams and what they can bring in and really help them strategize the work that's coming in as well as the work they want to go after to maximize their teams and keep the keep themselves scalable. Because the The agencies that want to stay private, that want to stay small, that love being able to like come up with their own crazy ideas, those are those are the teams I really like to work at. As my clients start to get absorbed by other agencies and you know and merged into other things, the focus comes off the creative. The focus comes on you know how cheaply, how affordably, what's the P&L, what's the profitability of this? And that is not even in the vocabulary of these edgier creative agencies yet.
00:21:53
Speaker
i I want to turn this conversation into how to approach selling to agencies. I started off talking about how my sweet spot is selling direct to brand. That's how I kind of have the most experience in.
00:22:07
Speaker
So when you're out selling to agencies, Do you use a rep? Do you have your just is it you and the team? What's your approach to selling? And then if anyone is considering a new approach to selling to agencies getting out of the boards rep thing model and something into closer what you're doing, what do you recommend
Oxco's Collaborative Approach
00:22:24
Speaker
for them? How do you what's different than how it used to be perhaps?
00:22:27
Speaker
Well, I will preface by saying, like, obviously, we are not a production company. That's the other different thing about the Oxco. We are more of a agency team than a production company. We're bringing on the expert ah production companies. I love them. I'm bringing them on. I'm bringing on the right partners, the right production companies, event companies, whoever it is to execute something.
00:22:47
Speaker
but I also worked at the ah on the production company side and post side for quite a while. And I have such a heart for these companies. I've worked at so many different kinds. When I first started the company, I knew I didn't want to be a production company. That was the only thing I knew.
00:23:00
Speaker
Like I knew i I had this knowledge, but I knew I didn't want to be a production company. Not that I don't love them. It's just that I find that The best production companies out there in this space either know or have found their niche of the work that just gets them excited in the morning that they just do better than anyone else.
00:23:17
Speaker
And they focus on that. And I like, whereas I like to be able to do a ton of different stuff. And I think that that's why. So because of that, we don't have reps. We're so against the old model that that's very old model.
00:23:29
Speaker
And I i think, honestly, this is going to sound bad. I think reps, having to use reps is lazy. i I love spending hours and hours digging digging online to find up and coming new talent or work that just like is you know screaming to be bought by somebody and like finding those directors that can't get on a roster somewhere. Because agencies don't care about rosters. Agencies don't care about reps.
00:23:51
Speaker
At least the agencies that I focus on I think that's the trend and it's a good trend, by the way. Yeah. I also like I work with and consult with a lot of directors just to help them look at their reel and what should they get rid of? What should they like, you know, add in to be more appealing to agencies? No one cares about the art film that you made. It may look beautiful. They do not care.
00:24:11
Speaker
it They want to see exactly that kind of work. They want to see, are you a director or a team that does really well with talent? Are you really heavy focused on comedy or beautiful visuals or you know sports documentary? Whatever it is, that is sort of like what I love to see a production company for. And I have all my partners sort of categorized by what I think their specialty is, even if they're the ones that'll call you and say, we can do anything. Why didn't you hire us for that?
00:24:37
Speaker
Stop that. That's my number one thing. All production companies, stop doing that. And also to that same end, I would say production companies need to be a production company. Don't try and say we're also a creative agency or you're a creative agency that is also a production company. Agencies don't want to hire another agency. That makes them incredibly uncomfortable. And I think that also speaks to the being threatened by competition. Agencies are threatened by competition, but at the same time, production companies tend to be threatened because there are so many. But there's also a reason that there's so many.
00:25:10
Speaker
I have... worked We've all... worked with particular people that didn't have an eye for good work. But very often, like I'll get sent a list of production companies from people and they're almost all bad.
00:25:21
Speaker
It doesn't mean that they're not good at something. It's just that they're what they're showing is they're trying to be good at everything and it's making them not that good at anything. I think it's making your model a little even clearer to me in that I agree with you that a production company is real fit for purpose you know mentality. it's It's designed for this function. and And I think that is the winning formula in this market today and in the future for production companies.
00:25:45
Speaker
And then on the other side of that, it's more of the consultancy kind of approach that perhaps you're taking with this embedded fractional. It's not, it's more than production company as partner and strategy and getting into it.
00:25:58
Speaker
It's leaning far more into the business goals of the client than than a typical production company would. And you're not trying to say we are everything for everybody. We're here in this thing. And when would you find that out? Then we will go find those fit for purpose players then to make things. Is that, did I get this? Yeah, I would even, and I would even say like, it doesn't have to be so niche. So if you want to, if you're an agency that, or a production company that you want to really work with good agencies, there's also a million of those. You can look at the work coming out of an agency and see very easily if it aligns with your style or with what you do really well or what you want to do more of and you're fit to do but haven't been getting those jobs yet and focus on that. I used to think that was like a crazy thing. I remember I met like a guy once who he only DPs like car commercials and I was like, that must get boring.
00:26:46
Speaker
No, it doesn't. And such a niche expertise that people need it and production and agencies will trust their production companies more if they're not trying to do all this stuff that they're not really that great at and they're over promising or they're feeling like they're having to handholds, you know, and and agency producers, they want to bring on these long-term production partners, but it's easier to do when those goals are aligned and when the styles are aligned.
00:27:12
Speaker
Right. And the more niche you can carve yourself, the less competition there is and therefore the higher prices you can charge. Exactly. ah You should find what you do well and charge more for it. or so like And that is, I think, the ideal goal. And you can also be having that same approach with brands. If the kind of work that you do is more direct to brand specific because it's um more corporate style or whatever, that then like hone in on exactly that offering and package. And I would say that to agencies, they want to see how that you do that exact type thing of creative and that you do beautiful work that they can trust you. Brands want to just kind of know how much it costs and how fast it is. So it's like that's where you're looking at more of your like packages for smaller production companies that are doing a lot of little things. And agencies, like I think the more embedded in aligned in styles that you can be with your agency clients.
00:28:05
Speaker
earlier they're going to bring you in. They're going to think of you while they're pitching an idea because they're going to say, oh yeah, so they can do this. And then that's going to come naturally versus like forcing it to just say, oh, we can do anything you need. And then they don't really find a place for you in their minds.
00:28:19
Speaker
And so with you and when you're out looking for new business and marketing yourself and following up and making relationships and all that, where do you get the most reception
Role of Accounts Departments at Oxco
00:28:29
Speaker
from? Is it from an ECD type of person, a creative type? Is it from a producer type of person? that might be there or who who's your audience where you get the most attention from?
00:28:39
Speaker
It tends to be accounts. Account wants things to move faster. Accounts wants things to move. They want to have things within budget. Either accounts is tired of their in-house production teams taking too long or saying no or having limited information.
00:28:55
Speaker
Or they are annoyed at their creatives pitching such big ideas that they have no idea how they're going to do it. a lot of times in this industry, you have older you know creative directors, vets that have like their productions companies that they'll just hire again and again still until something gets screwed up or until they need something new. And so I try to really present it as...
00:29:16
Speaker
How are we creating a can't full campaign which with a bunch of different assets affordably instead of just doing thinking about this in like one little box thing that you that they may be like presenting to you in the pitch?
00:29:28
Speaker
Then what ends up happening is because of how well I work with creatives and my team, we're all agency, like creative and production teams, the creatives end up really loving us because they we don't say no. We're not constantly like just, no, you can't, no, you can't, no, you can't.
00:29:42
Speaker
we Whereas we're like educating them in how to make their idea better or giving them like great talent that's going to execute it for them. And they trust us. Whereas I think a lot of times when a creative team, like when the production team has to bring in like a a hone or ah like a production consultant, that's more money and operations based and not creative than their, their idea ends up flushing down the toilet or they, you know, they bring on a production company at that team has made a ton of assumptions because they don't speak the same language that the agency speaks.
00:30:13
Speaker
Or you have a junior creative team that isn't used to having to like be super clear in what you need and want and what the vision in your head is. And I think that's where, you know, you have those just that disconnect and being able to like make sure that everyone knows what the goal is.
00:30:27
Speaker
we all so we no one starts with a blank slate in our heads. Whenever someone's describing something to us, we our brain just automatically to make things faster starts from a different place.
00:30:38
Speaker
And all of us have completely different starting points. So this idea that this game of telephone from the agency to the client and the agency back to the production company and the production company to all of the people that they have to hire, stuff's going to get messed up if you're not super clear in what the vision is. And I think that is what's changed so much is that the production company used to own 100% that vision and they just can't anymore because of how quick things are moving and how much brands need to sign off on stuff before they'll even like get it to there. So I like to tell production companies again, just focus on what you're really, really good at. Be that partner that they know. But also like, I don't think production companies need to have rosters anymore. I don't think they need to. i mean, they can't.
00:31:21
Speaker
If they do, they need to all kind of be very strong. One thing that I see a huge lack of for production companies out there are women. I see very few female directors being pushed. Very, very few.
00:31:32
Speaker
um i have a project right now that I'm trying to find an entire female crew for. and this should not be as hard as it is. And finding like that those sort of niche markets for stuff, like making sure that you can... I'll very often to be like, okay, I need a female comedy director who also does choreography. Boom. And then I have... you know, spent years crafting this very ah intricate spreadsheet.
00:31:55
Speaker
But a lot of people, I think a lot of production companies don't necessarily go, they're not constantly on the eye for new talent. They're not constantly like going to the well and thinking digital first, social first.
00:32:06
Speaker
If people are out there making this and, you know, this really neat stuff and the brand can just hire the the creator directly, why are they hiring you? So think more of like, what what what kind of creators can we bring to the table? That isn't just a typical...
00:32:20
Speaker
director or DP. like i think Think outside of that box a little bit. And that's there's there's a lot of opportunity there as well. I think those are really good pieces of advice.
Tech Tools in Production Companies
00:32:30
Speaker
You mentioned spreadsheets, that which i I'm um'm a sucker for a conversation around useful tools in the tech stack. I'm so curious, do you have any tools that you recommend production companies embrace or tactics with tech stacks that that you do really well?
00:32:47
Speaker
So many, so many tech techs. There's no longer this world where production companies live in like, we all do this AICP budget and and you need a 20 page budget for stuff or like that is gone. A lot of times they're very small things or they're always different and they're not you know you're not just needing to repeat them. So I, for years, was trying to find a good software. And recently a friend of mine actually like He's made one that is really, really good that I'm a huge fan of um called Producer AI and people are happy to email me about it. And I'll send him a little intro, but I use, I've been using that for a lot of my estimating and like building out, but I don't know that the tech stack matters as much as making sure that what you're using works with any anything.
00:33:30
Speaker
Don't have such a complicated system that if your clients or agencies or whoever don't get an account there or know how to use it, it's not going to work. So something like low code or no code, like Notion, where you can be linking, you know, whatever the client's docs are into something is really helpful.
00:33:48
Speaker
Slack is really helpful for bringing that in, you know, and then with Notion, you can build a lot of, I'm rebuilding my, ah my talent database in Notion so that It's easier to search, but also so that I can create a portal for new vendors to just toss their stuff in.
00:34:02
Speaker
And I think with no code, and low code and AI, there's a lot more of that. And you're really not going to find like one thing that does everything you want. it's It's really hard to be like, I'm going to make this perfect plan. And then the client's going to you're going to redo a calendar 50 million times. We all know that.
00:34:19
Speaker
That is, ah you know, producer AI does a really good calendar, which is nice. But it's at the end, the client's going to want it in whatever version they want it in, right? Well, can you do the date? I need the dates in a list that I can copy and paste and put into a deck.
00:34:32
Speaker
ah The producer AI sounds really interesting. I'm going to have check this out. I always love to see what kind of new tools are online. It's very cool. It also has like a ah Once you're using it and you have all of your crew in it, you can literally like look at a map and see all your particular crew in certain areas and they're all connected to to projects. And it also has a site for production companies. It also has an app where your vendors can, your team and crew can invoice you through it. So it's really streamlined more for like in-house production companies, but I've also been working with them to help them like get it a little bit more aligned for in-house agencies as well.
00:35:06
Speaker
So you've done this great job of framing a problem, identifying like a target to go after where they ah know the problem from in the inside and some kind of tools to be organized on this. i want to end this with the conversation around how you present yourself, how you go about attracting people who need you.
00:35:24
Speaker
And so what I really liked about um Your website and the video that's on your website, I don't want to call it a reel because it's not it's really an ad. I loved it. I thought it was really like everything is in message to me about you're just so focused on this client first, which that was my impression of it. And you have a strong point of view. What advice do you give production companies or this ah new maybe hybrid model that wants to go this approach for presenting themselves to attract people who need them?
00:35:55
Speaker
If you've been out there for a while and you find that you keep getting like the wrong type of clients or, you know, they're too small or it's an off market or it's just not quite aligning with your goals, then there's probably a good chance that you've been casting way too wide of a net and you're just trying to get anything to where... Maybe SEO is pulling you into people's browsers and they're emailing you, but it's not the right type of people. The right type of people aren't searching like that for you. They are wanting to be targeted or they're being caught more about how something looks or feels or sounds.
00:36:25
Speaker
So once you have kind of figured out what your ideal client is and like very specific, the kind of work they do, the you the types of clients they have. present yourself as though you are them, basically. Like not obviously saying that you're an agency, but look at the kinds of clients, the kinds of agencies that you want to work with or brands you want to work with. How are they presenting themselves? What do the world their websites have on it? What's the style? what's the Are they edgy or they pretty like buttoned up?
00:36:50
Speaker
No one's reading all of this these long emails that you're sending or these super, you know, detailed websites that have way too much wording. They're looking at it and it's a like it's a vibe. And I know that sounds weird, but it's like you either, you kind of just present yourself with a very similar vibe aligned to those clients and in your present, you know presentation. And then also like in how you email and contact them very like, Hey, I love this ad you did for Bud Light. We do a ton of very similar blank, blank, blank work. And those blanks should be descriptions of very similar ways that the agency describes themselves.
00:37:25
Speaker
you know And let's like talk or let's, you know, let's get up. I also think that like for bigger agencies, that don't have a lot of time to find new vendors. I used to do a lot of luncheons, breakfast, try to get in front of their creative team, try to have meetings where there's food and all you're doing is presenting your work to the creatives because the creatives get inspired and the creatives in the end have way more say over who's going to get hired than anybody else.
00:37:51
Speaker
Yeah. That's always kind of the important thing to do I hit a lot of people up on LinkedIn. I go to a lot of events and I think people don't people always know when they're being sold and there's this level of like desperation that comes into, I can do anything you need that like instantly is off-putting.
00:38:07
Speaker
Think of it more of like a dating app than like selling yourself. It's more of like, I know that I'm this really cool person and you should think I'm cool too. And if they don't, then they're not your ideal client and move on.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, and ah the biggest piece of advice that I'll throw on top of that there that I give to all my clients, and that is the best time to do business development is when
Maintaining Client Relationships
00:38:27
Speaker
you're busy. The minute you land a client and you're busy, press on the gas for business development and sales and marketing because you have an attitude that is different than when you aren't busy, and you have the ability to say no, and you have the ability to push back, and that is a very powerful point of view.
00:38:45
Speaker
It's a power. It's a really strong position. It's a position of power in this relationship and the dynamic that exists there. That's just my number one piece of advice. Do business development when you're busy. And see the problems that youre you know your ongoing clients are having and help try to build self-sustaining solutions in you know on your team for them. They are always going to need case study editors or real editors or those things. And if you have people that are really good at that, then those are things that you can be selling on a more ongoing basis and like kind of be in touch with their business development team and you know what's coming in the pike too. I mean, I think...
00:39:18
Speaker
Sales is always hard. I'm the worst at that too. I would also say to that point, don't be afraid to get rid of bad clients. It doesn't matter how much money they're bringing in sometimes. If they are taking up so much of your time that you can't do anything else or they are just making everyone miserable, like it's not worth it.
00:39:36
Speaker
sound advice you know when i first discovered your company and talked to you i was impressed and this conversation you've delivered on even more than i hoped for you've given so many practical pieces of advice i think you found a really unique niche you present yourself really well as a person who just loves business development you're just nailing it i love it so thank you for that are is there any other final advice um how people should present themselves to agencies or should how do people present themselves to you as you seem to be in the position of hiring?
Closing and Contact Information
00:40:07
Speaker
What's what's the best way to reach out to you?
00:40:09
Speaker
Well, people can reach out to us at theox.co is our website. and they can email me at danny at theoxco.co or find me on LinkedIn, Danny Dufresne. And I'm happy to answer any questions or even take a look at your reel or website and you know help you tweak messaging if you need to. It's really just about being yourself. And when you're being yourself to the people that have that same style that you want to be working with, then that gets appreciated much more. So I think that is what helps you in like narrowing down who you really want your clients to be. But I have a heart for production companies. I love them so much. And I love hiring good people. I think there's so much business and talent out there that there's no excuse to like be worried about getting enough work.
00:40:51
Speaker
This has been a fantastic conversation. What started out as like this operational idea ended up being almost a client-side perspective. So for thank you for that. And Dani Dufresne, I appreciate you being on the show. Thank you very much.
00:41:03
Speaker
Thank you.
00:41:07
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S e b l a s dot com