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[Client Side Conversation] The Indie Production Advantage with Jillian Gibbs
113 Plays27 days ago
As holding companies expand their grip on marketing budgets, independent production companies risk getting pushed to the margins. But in today’s fragmented media landscape, there’s a growing advantage for smaller, more nimble partners. Independents are often better equipped to work across platforms, adapt quickly, and offer the kind of specialized attention big networks only promise. In this episode, Jillian Gibbs (author of The Marketer’s Guide to Creative Production and founder of APR) joins the conversation to break down the current power dynamics in marketing production. Together, we map the evolving landscape, unpack how brands are really making decisions, and offer a roadmap for independents to not just survive, but win. If you’re a production company or agency trying to stand out, this conversation will help you rethink your value and sharpen your edge.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis' Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Keblis.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning in to
Evolving Marketing Dynamics
00:00:27
Speaker
the show. Today we're talking about power and who holds it, at least in the world of marketing production, and why it might be starting to change.
00:00:35
Speaker
For years, scale was the name of the game in marketing production and holding companies raced to buy up agencies and production shops to build sprawling networks to service the growing demand for content.
00:00:46
Speaker
If a marketer needed to launch a global campaign across five regions in 12 formats, they were built for that. But the game might be changing. With content needs multiplying and platforms fragmenting, speed, specialization, and adaptability seem to be more important than sheer size.
00:01:03
Speaker
I'm hearing more and more from brand leaders that they aren't looking for one partner who can do everything. Rather, they're looking for the right partner who can do one particular thing well, quickly, and with the flexibility to match.
00:01:15
Speaker
In short, One size fits all no longer seems to fit anything. And in this new landscape, independent production companies may just be the tailored solution. That's because they can move faster, pivot more easily, and often bring a level of creative and strategic expertise that gets lost in the larger systems.
Interview with Jillian Gibbs
00:01:32
Speaker
So, is it true that scale is losing some of its power? That's what I want to find out. And to help us unpack what's happening in this David vs. Goliath saga, I'm joined by Jillian Gibbs.
00:01:43
Speaker
Jillian is the founder and CEO of APR, a consultancy that helps brands get better results from marketing production. Before founding APR in 2000, she worked in-house at Unilever and Molson Coors, overseeing marketing production for major brands like Lipton, Ragu, and Coors Light.
00:02:00
Speaker
She's also the author of a book called The Marketer's Guide to Creative Production, and she's one of the smartest voices out there on marketing production and how it's evolving. So Jillian, welcome to the show. Thank you, James. So good to be here.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yes, it's I'm so excited to have you. I feel like with this conversation, I'm getting a twofer. I'm getting kind of this client side conversation that I sometimes have. And I'm getting a production conversation. you You have a foot in both worlds. You have all this experience with major brands. I feel like we're getting this like hitchhiker's guide to big machine marketing or something like that with you.
00:02:32
Speaker
i love that. Well, I'll do my best. I got my thumb out. Pick me up.
AICP Week Recap: Storytelling and Technology
00:02:37
Speaker
But before we jump into the subject at hand, you and I were just together last week at AICP Week in New York.
00:02:44
Speaker
And I thought we would do a little recap on AICP Week and what some overall takeaways were from that and lead us into the conversation that we're going to talk about. What do you think about AICP Week?
00:02:55
Speaker
Well, i was for the portion that I was there, i was i was inspired by the amount of people that showed up really eager to listen and learn. And I think the biggest takeaway for me was that craft matters in the world of of technologies and AI, that where you're we're able to create content better and faster to be more personalized, just and more effective. Sometimes the the storytelling and the craft gets lost in all that. And I feel like we were having both conversations. So I
AI in Content Production
00:03:25
Speaker
thought that was good.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, particularly in the context of AI, virtual production, and all these new fancy tools, I was kind of stunned that there was less fear about it. I mean, there was an acknowledgement of what it might be removing, but there was more of an evolution you know and adaptability to it. that And it went right back to what you were talking about was like,
00:03:46
Speaker
we're kind of going back to basics a little bit. These tools can do all these things. So what really matters here is knowing the goals, knowing the story and, you know, like it was a fundamentals conversation and there was a, everyone was kind of like, all right, we're we're going to do this. This is how going to make things now. Maybe it's better. i don't know if better, but,
00:04:03
Speaker
Well, quality. I think quality matters. and and And I do think that people are leaning in to learn as much as they can and figure out how to adapt their business models.
New Business Models in Marketing
00:04:12
Speaker
I mean, the the truth is today there's less primary production, primary hero production type of work than there was, say, two years ago, 40% less. So...
00:04:22
Speaker
Less work is going to fewer companies, which makes it difficult to be a new company in the space. so As I was walking around and talking with people during the breaks and the cocktail hour, I was hearing really interesting stories about how companies are changing their business model, that're changing their approach. so Companies that have typically produced TV commercials and only TV commercials are now working in the influencer space.
00:04:47
Speaker
and helping the influencers with their production, paid for by the brands, mostly. ah But the the the idea of of switching you know the business model from advertising commercials to helping influencers to do better quality productions is a really great idea right now. you know That was nice to hear.
00:05:06
Speaker
One of my favorite lines from the whole conference was what I can't remember who said it, but it was so ah you know a director and he'd done some AI commercial work just to demonstrate the power of VO3 and all this kind of stuff. And it was ah a bunch of AI made actors and all this stuff that looked to really compelling and real. And i mean, it was a really sharp spot. The whole thing was We can talk. We can talk. you know Really talking you know really yeah showing how you can just write a script and they do it in a sound. It looks real. Everything's that we can talk. We can talk. We can talk. And everyone's doing this. same We can talk. Oh my God, we can talk.
00:05:40
Speaker
And then it was, okay, great. You can talk. But what are you going to say? And there may be a time comes where it understands what to say. But and right now, it's still humans that need to figure out what to say. And that just kind of summed it up for me.
00:05:52
Speaker
I mean, the director would direct the prompts to create what they say. to potentially you could get a full on ad with people in it that is effective. Will we be able to tell the difference? i i equate it to when CGI was a thing. I remember when we, you know, it's usually in the the movie industry that creates a technology and then the advertising industry adapts it like with.
00:06:13
Speaker
Michael Jackson back in the 80s, the morphing, I'm moving my head, you know, that CGI, those techniques are, they're just another tool in our toolbox. And I think about AI in the same way, you still need the vision for what you're trying to communicate.
00:06:26
Speaker
If you still need quality content, you still need great storytelling. It's just another tool for me. And now I think when you when you talk about content at scale, then that's really where AI becomes exponential in terms of value for the brand.
Agency Bidding and Fairness
00:06:39
Speaker
But I mean, as I said on the and the panel at the conference, i I don't mean to oversimplify our business, but you've got two major buckets, so to speak, of content. You've got the big bucket of hero primary content where you would use a director and a cast of real people.
00:06:54
Speaker
And then you have the content at scale. Of course, there's a lot ah in between there with social media and influencers and all that. But the content at scale is the ability to take the learnings from how the assets are performing and change them on the fly. So we're changing music and the backgrounds and the and the look and the feel of the people all on the fly to make sure that it's resonating with each individual human and then understanding how well it's performing and going back and iterating again at the speed of light.
00:07:24
Speaker
as Well, and you were on a panel at AICP. was called In Service of the Brand, Can We Get Along? It was a really vibrant discussion. i mean, it was you had the head of global production or David Rolf, WPP, right, there, and you had some independents there. and hm Well, Frank Schirmer at Radical Media has been in business 40 years. he He's evolved his business many times over and you know that period of time. And and and he was very ah concerned as well as Yvette from Cosmo Street. And ah David and I were on the panel. Yeah. And I guess Frank's biggest concern is that the bidding process for the work, the competitive bidding process, isn't fair when some of the holding companies are managing that bidding process and also bidding on the work. that was the crux of the issue on the panel. Right. And a ah challenge for more transparency and honesty is kind of the thing. I know there was a bit at the end where the question was asked by Matt Miller, is it is the system broken or is it just misunderstood? And you answered the question.
00:08:25
Speaker
with It's broken. I did say it's broken. Yeah. Well, that was after David and Frank both said it was misunderstood. And I was thinking, how am I going respond to this question? And it is broken, but we know how to fix it.
00:08:38
Speaker
you know i don't think it's misunderstood. I do think it's broken and it's not working. The way that it used to be is that the agencies were agents and some of them still, the independents still are. They're representing the best interest of the brand and the agencies responsible for bringing the best quality resources to the brand, to the projects.
00:08:59
Speaker
And The agencies that have a self-serving interest in awarding themselves the work do not have the brand's best interest at heart. right They're awarding the work within the family of the network. And so there is a conflict of interest.
00:09:12
Speaker
And the way to fix that is just to have an independent third party like APR or another company like us ah to manage the bidding process, to give everybody a fair shot. I thought it was good to expose that. I think a lot of us have experienced that. And so let's just call it out and address it and make sure that when that is happening, that it's outed. You don't get to be the judge and the juror and all of the other things.
00:09:35
Speaker
That's right. The umpire and the player. Yeah. So let's set this up for like the production landscape right now and why maybe you thought it was broken on the panel and what's going on with this consolidation of holding companies and the rise of influencer and all of this kind of, I set this up as there's no longer just one screen. It's fragmented across multiple channels. Set this thing up and let's talk about the impact of that on production
Rise of Independent Agencies
00:09:59
Speaker
companies. What are you seeing?
00:10:00
Speaker
Well, i I have a chart, which I can send you if you want to share with your listeners, that shows that over the last five years, the revenue has gone down for the holding companies. Now, these are publicly traded companies, right? These agency networks. There's a lot of pressure for them to increase their revenue.
00:10:15
Speaker
But what we also see on the chart is that independent production companies, independent agencies are actually growing right now, and the client in-house teams are growing. So if the holding companies are going to survive, they've got to go after some of the work the independents do, and they have to go after some of the work that the in-house teams do.
00:10:32
Speaker
One could argue that the content the proliferation of content is causing the need for more more content, and therefore there's enough content for everyone to go around. You could argue that too. ah But if you think about the independents have a great opportunity, there's a lot of people who have left the holding companies to start their own companies, whether it's an agency or a production company. And so those companies are, as they're growing, they have relationships, you know, that they carried with them. So they're able to meet with brands and create one-to-one relationship ah versus being a part of a holding company network or relying on another agency to recommend them. So I think there's a great opportunity for the independents to fit in here. And evidence shows over the last five years that the independents are growing. So I think that creative quality and creative nuance and creative boutique-y sort of specialty shops are going to be all the rage ah going forward.
00:11:27
Speaker
I do think, that though, that the boutique specialty shops do have a place now in this ecosystem. And if we can just get through figuring out how build get them to the brands without relying on the agencies to do that, then that needs to be solved. Exposing these wonderful companies to the brands.
00:11:45
Speaker
that's ah That's a great setup. And I think just to confirm, you're saying that there is a growing trend of in-house agencies acting like the agency, right? They're doing strategy, they're doing creative development. They really have a good sense, maybe not a great sense, but a good sense of what they want to do.
Collaboration in Production
00:12:00
Speaker
And they're looking for production companies with some creative chops, not just a order taker or service provider, but coming in as a partner in the strategy and the creative to come in there and help do that last bit. bit, verify, look at the goals, see where the media buy is going, what screens shoots different, what all these types of things. You're seeing that's a growing trend.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, I am But if you if you think about a brand's ecosystem now, right? What brands want is great work that works really hard for them, quality work that works hard. And the way to do that now in the world of AI is to have a backbone of a, ah ah the backbone of the ecosystem would need to be some company that would allow the brands to have all the data that they need to make their decisions.
00:12:47
Speaker
So it's ah the backbone is really important. And the backbone having the flexibility to plug and play different companies into it, into the workflow, so that the it's optimizing the way content is produced, is really important. So these independents need to be able to collaborate with others.
00:13:03
Speaker
need to be able to plug in to whatever the backbone is. The backbone could be a holding company. It could be an agency network. It could be a company like Oliver that is standing up in-house ah studios for clients on the client side. They've got over 300 clients. They're they're in there doing is most of the, not the premium work, but most of the content at scale. But they're also really expert as creating the infrastructure to plug and play these other companies to support the brands. Another company is Jellyfish, who does that. Getting media and content closer together is what the future is. You've got to be able to do them both at the same time.
00:13:40
Speaker
And so media companies are producing content. i should I'm going off on a tangent, but for the independents, they can be partnering with the media companies, right? They can be partnering with these companies that are the backbone that could be getting on clients' rosters and independent preferred roster lists as part of their go-to company. Most advertisers now have a a preferred partner list of some sort, as little as three, as many as the biggest one I've seen 240 companies. So, you know, yeah there's a place for for everyone to get in there.
00:14:10
Speaker
Well, and you've built a substantial company off being an agent that works on behalf of the brand and somewhat the production company to find out you're a matchmaker, right? You're finding the right company, the right agency for the right job. So when you're looking for this and you see the problem of fragmented media and all these kinds of things, is it true then for you, what I kind of set up here, that it's really more about finding a production company that is got a particular niche, is more specific to one kind of technique or one kind of approach versus a complete full service, you know, we can do anything. Does that make a difference for what you're doing for matchmaking brands and production companies?
00:14:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you should say that. I personally think we sort of bucketize or pigeonhole companies into a certain category and then we don't let them expand. So that that is something that we just do in this industry. You know, if you think about a film director who's really great at food photography, then he or she may also be great with people, but but he's known for or she's known for their food photography. So that's all they get called for.
00:15:13
Speaker
So i I do think that because of the way our industry thinks that having a niche is a good thing, but brands and the smaller brands are looking for companies that can do a lot of things. You know, they're looking for that flexibility to work with a fewer companies,
00:15:28
Speaker
group of partners where if they partner with a handful of companies, then get a lot out of them, that they're they're developing a relationship and a rapport and they're able to listen and learn together you know versus always going to a new company and sort of forcing the competitive marketplace to show up and then have to learn all over again. you know Brands are moving so quickly these days that having a ah short list of suppliers that would they would partner with and get to know each other better it is actually the best path for the brands. And I think for the vendors too, or the the suppliers too, because they can predict the amount of work that's coming. They could forecast their people and really be smart about how they employ people, which could help change the business model to give them
00:16:13
Speaker
ah different compensation model where they've got a commitment, if they've got a volume, ah they could provide a discount. If they got an idea of what's coming in what timeframe, they could certainly plan better and therefore maximize the way that they pull together their bids for
Building Networks for Success
00:16:28
Speaker
their compensation.
00:16:29
Speaker
So if we're bullish on independence, being able to capture more market share in this kind of new world, particularly going straight to brands and working with in-house agencies,
00:16:40
Speaker
What are some of the things that come to mind for you on how production companies should present themselves and sell themselves to in-house agencies or to intermediaries like you? Like, what are some things that really have stood out for you you're like, that's a way to go?
00:16:56
Speaker
when I look at vendors or suppliers or companies that are doing great work there, and there are so many that the thing that makes them stand out is how they integrate and collaborate with others.
00:17:10
Speaker
And I know that sounds so silly and so simple, not maybe not silly, just simple, but we're so used to working independently in this industry and getting us a scope of work assigned for a specific campaign or event.
00:17:24
Speaker
And that's sort of, short-sighted because it's there's so much connected or integrated into the thinking of the brand that to just be hired to do a project and not have visibility to the rest is actually it's detrimental to the long-term relationship. So I think one of the things that an independence can do is when speaking with either the clients in-house or the marketing team or the procurement team,
00:17:49
Speaker
is to talk about that integration and that connectivity across their ecosystem, how important that is to them, because that'll help to start break down the silos in the industry and I think bring better value.
00:18:02
Speaker
We all want to take that leap with a brand, develop a relationship, but if we did it on our own, it would not last as long as if it if you become sort of an integral part of their ecosystem connected to the other partners.
00:18:16
Speaker
I see. So really demonstrating your ability to work with people who are doing the media buys, working with people who are working in maybe influencer marketing in addition to any other kind of pre-roll or whatever like that, and really show that the work that you're going to be making is going to be fit well for any of these other people for the delivery of these, right? Yeah.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah. Typically fit for purpose is the term that brands are using to say, okay, we're going to hire this company to do this thing. We're going to hire this company to do that thing. But then the thing that's missing, and that's good because then you're getting the best for that type of work. But the thing that we need to go one step farther, I think as an industry and where companies will stand out is to integrate those multiple companies doing the work for brands is to say, what can we do to bring them together to give each visibility to what the other is doing? Because that's when, you know, you further build on the, the ideas.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And then hopefully being able to say the results of that kind of collaboration, right? We worked across with multiple teams doing our part, making sure worked for everyone else's. We got what we needed to do ours. Right. And the result was more X sold, right? That some ability to drive to that. Yes. If you think about it, it's the reason the network agencies exist. The holding companies exist because they're saying, we're going to connect you within our network to all of these partners that are going to work really well together. So the independents, how do they compete with that?
00:19:37
Speaker
but Though it's logical that the holding companies can do that, they don't often do that. They're still competing within the holding companies. So that's a whole other thing we can have a separate conversation about. But the point is, perception-wise, A holding company has a suite of services and companies available to the brand that they think is all going to be working really well. If the independents are competing with that, they have to figure out how to align, how to build the connectivity between the other independents or with the holding company.
00:20:03
Speaker
You see where I'm going with that? I do see. Yeah. It's like you you're creating the WPP in your own world, your own universe and showing how it all works. Right. So if you're an independent production company and you're only in the US and this is a global brand that needs you to scale, then who do you partner with in other parts of the world for their primary markets?
00:20:22
Speaker
What's your network look like? how can you What editorial company do you partner with so that you can have, and Post Facility, you know or Visual Effects House, so that you can bundle some of this and really provide greater value to the brand than just what you offer?
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah. While at the same time having a more unique creative point of view, perhaps. than that The advantage that you have as an independent boutique shop and the ability to be a collaborator among different things is proposing the best of both worlds. Right.
00:20:50
Speaker
So if you think about what a lot of people in production are talking about, consolidation. Consolidating production is the way to go. It makes sense. It's logical. It's efficient. I don't actually believe that consolidation is the answer. I think Coordination is the answer, right? This way you can get to work with the right companies.
00:21:09
Speaker
If you consolidate, you tend to get three things. you get In the end, you get higher pricing because you have you're at a disadvantage because you're not competitively bidding. So you're getting higher pricing. You're getting lower quality because the work just isn't as good from ah people doing the work and all of the work.
00:21:26
Speaker
And the third thing is a lack of innovation, the lack of innovation, because you, as you consolidate everything, you're not, it's competition that breeds innovation. It's like, wow, look what they're doing. And, you know, you just kind of keep growing in the innovation space. So consolidation isn't really a good idea, even though it seems practical and maybe...
00:21:43
Speaker
logical, you know, to address the complexities today. It's coordination. And some things should be consolidated. I agree. But you really have to leave room in the ecosystem, especially when it comes to getting quality creative, you have to leave room for others to plug in so you can get better quality work.
00:22:00
Speaker
That's a really interesting take on it. I hadn't thought of it, you know, certainly to think in the same terms as the holding companies, but to do an independent way and then to show, you know, these very practical reasons why independence better and lean into it's cheaper, it's better quality.
00:22:14
Speaker
we'll We'll do innovation that they never seen before. It's really smart. Any other things come to mind on how production companies need to present themselves to you and to clients that you think is missing or is an opportunity that isn't fully taken advantage of?
Aligning Production with Client Goals
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah. First is understand a client's business needs. Second is have a specialty. The third is build those connecting points, right, with the other companies doing the work. And the last is to have an onboarding process that you require a formalized structure with goals that are shared with the client or the agencies, whoever's representing, you know, you in this situation could be anybody these days.
00:22:52
Speaker
that you have a proper onboarding process. Because if you just start, if you just get started, you're missing a whole opportunity to say, let's make sure that we're in this together, that I understand how your what what your goals are, how you're going to succeed, so that you can measure me up against that. And then when you independent deliver on meeting those goals, you're going to be the first company they think of next.
00:23:12
Speaker
So that onboarding process is really important. It's also where you can get that connectivity to happen too, where you you set the expectation. Listen, you hired us to do one thing, but we would like to be connected to the other companies. Can you make an introduction?
00:23:24
Speaker
I'm so glad that you had onboarding as one of those. It's it's one of my pet peeves that doesn't get taken advantage over taken seriously enough because I hear it from brands all of the time that they really, really want to know what an onboarding process is. Half the time, they may not even look at it, but they want to know you have it, that you've thought about it, that you've done this so many times that you've actually created a system out of it so that it can work the best, that it could be this high performing. And that is really important. And you should actually do it because that is going to perform.
00:23:56
Speaker
And it starts in that very first phone call. Onboarding begins at intake, not after you've signed the s SOW. does. And that would be a huge differentiator for independents.
00:24:08
Speaker
People would be like, what what? are you talking about? You do that? That's important to you? No, that's a really good differentiator and so needed today. So I'd make sure that's standard. Oh, that's so excellent. Okay. So these are four great things. So a production company's got it all together.
00:24:22
Speaker
They got their language. They got their setups. Where in the hell do they go to meet clients? I mean, there's LinkedIn, of course. And If you're not on LinkedIn, you should. It's one of the simplest you know ways to make a difference in B2B anything. But beyond that, where do they show up? Where do they get attention? Any advice? Is there the right conference? is the wrong conference? is what What do you got for me?
00:24:44
Speaker
So the people making the decisions on the client side for who they work with are either of the in-house teams, the executive producers on the in-house teams, or the marketing procurement teams, or the CMOs you know at ah at a high level, or if they have a relationship with a company, an independent, they will see that they get some work. If it's the agency representing, you know then you go through the reps, as you know, in in the space. But if you're talking about how do they get to brands or brand representatives, then there are so a few conferences to go to. There's CAN, of course.
00:25:18
Speaker
There are two in-house agency conferences the ANA in-house conference. And then there's another one at the end of the year, usually November or December, and it's put on by a Boston company. It's called the Agency In-house Forum, so the AIF.
00:25:35
Speaker
So you have like so every each six months, like you have one now and then you have one six months from now. So those are two really good conferences in the US to get noticed. and More brands are going to CES. there The ASCP should put on some sort of showcase direct to brand. and They were always reticent to do that because they they rely on the agencies to get them to the brands, to find them the work. But he can't rely on the agencies, ah all of all of the agencies, any longer. so How do we create and a venue for the independents to be seen and to be celebrated?
00:26:04
Speaker
so That's coming. I think there'd be so much
Training and Resources
00:26:07
Speaker
interest in that. course, it would be interest from the production side, but I actually think there would be interest from the brand side as well. If they could see quickly who's doing what and what's interesting in a much easier way, I think that could be a powerful connection network. All right. You have my vote for that. AICP, if you're listening.
00:26:23
Speaker
ah one Another way to get to clients is through APR Supplier Intelligence Program, which ah Russell Sharpe, our head of production, runs. And that's where we meet with companies, old and new, you know older companies that have new offerings and new companies trying to get in front of brands. um We at APR often run ah RFPs. ah So we'll we'll do a ah supplier search and and run the pitch process.
00:26:45
Speaker
<unk>s We have no self-severing interest in who wins the work. So we'll often create a shortlist for the client. And we really do try to match the culture of the clients and the way that they show up with the suppliers of the companies who, because we we know them so well, who you know who are doing the work. ah And it and those those relationships usually work out and they're very long lasting. So that's another way to do it is through APR or through companies like us.
00:27:10
Speaker
Those are all good avenues. um The conferences are super interesting. I have a take, and I'd love to get your response to this, that while it's good to get to the top, those are the decision makers, they're being solicited all of the time. And unless you have an established relationship with them, getting them to see you and to hear you and understand what you've got going on is very difficult.
00:27:30
Speaker
So rather than you trying to you know bombard them, approach the juniors, you know, the junior producers, the and the the people that are just coming into their career that get into the brands or agencies, but brands for this conversation and introduce yourself to them.
00:27:45
Speaker
Maybe since they're new, you can even educate them a little bit, you know, kind of get them smarter and advance their career thinking a little bit. And then when they're in the room with the CMO, having a conversation about a campaign and the CMO says, hey, we need this and The new junior says, actually just talk to somebody and then let them carry your water for you.
00:28:07
Speaker
I think it's more compelling. I think it's more interesting. And I think it's often overlooked. What's your take on that? I like that. I think it works. I think that training is underrated in our industry and it's so needed. And if you as an independent can educate the the people in the ecosystem on the client side, that you will create a best friend. So that has worked for me. I mean, for years, I have been teaching production 101 to marketers and to their agencies and Now you know it's a book, right? I wrote the book that came out in late 20th. Yeah, you literally wrote the book on it.
00:28:41
Speaker
The Marketer's Guide to Creative Production, Everything a Marketer Needs Know About Film and Photography. But it's really about how the marketer can be most effective in working in the production space, like What is pre-production? What happens on the set? What happens in post-production? And what's your role in in being an inclusive partner to the all the different companies that are working in that ecosystem and how to get the most out of them?
00:29:05
Speaker
And that the book, though it's titled for marketers, it really is good for independence production companies as well as agencies. This is not something that, and I didn't mean to plug my book, but it just seemed naturally because you were talking about training.
00:29:16
Speaker
But they don't teach it in MBA school. They don't teach what do you do production 101. You have to learn on the job. And we don't have time to learn these days. I mean, it's just everything's moving so quickly.
00:29:28
Speaker
What I like about your book is that it's written for marketers. It's written for marketers to understand how to work with production companies. And any production company owner or professional that reads this book is going to know every single thing that's in there. There's got to be anything new for the most part.
00:29:44
Speaker
But what they will see is what you and know the brand side doesn't know. And that's critical. That goes back to the onboarding conversation, right? like Understand what is intuitive to you, what is natural, what is just part of what you'd go about for your business is actually quite novel for a lot of these others.
00:30:04
Speaker
And it's on a high visibility stage where the executive teams are looking at the spots that are being built. And so really look at this and use your, I think your book is a great template for all of the kind of onboarding that a production company needs to do. do and think about when they're bringing on clients. it's ah It's a perfect template for it. Really well done. The other thing I'll say about your book that's amazing that appreciated quite a bit is while you are hammering on the production companies to do more and more, and you are leaning into efficiency with a bit of a procurement attitude, you aren't sacrificing creativity. In your book, you talk about the importance of the creative process and why that's valuable and needs to be paid for. So I found that was a pretty good balance of efficiency and creativity.
00:30:48
Speaker
Thank you. that was that That's what I was striving for. Okay. i want You touched on the idea of RFPs.
Responding to RFPs Effectively
00:30:56
Speaker
I want to get your take on how production companies can respond to RFPs. there's you know Blair Enns made the famous win without pitching and has really tried to change the culture of you don't pitch for free and has a brilliant process of creating more of an honest transaction for the work.
00:31:14
Speaker
Can a production company say we don't respond to RFPs, but we'd love to have a conversation with you and then engage in a more meaningful way? Is it too much to ask for production companies to get paid to deliver treatments and rf to respond to RFPs? What's your take on that?
00:31:31
Speaker
So there's really two questions in there. And I would say for the first question, which is, should production companies say we don't do RFPs? I i don't think that would i don't think the industry is ready for that. ah but It's the agencies that Blair was recommending do that because they're developing long-term strategic relationships. And that as weve we've already established, the production companies are sort of coming in for certain projects.
00:31:53
Speaker
At the point at which a production company can have a strategic conversation about long-term planning, which is ideal, right, and becoming a preferred partner, then typically you could avoid the RFP. But it's just the nature of the way the industry works. that The ah RFPs for consolidating or choosing preferred rosters are are happening because that's the process. There's a lot of corporate guidelines requiring RFPs and competitive bidding that we exist with today. I mean, so I wouldn't, I think you'd be cutting off your nose to spot your face to do with the ah RFP. The question is, insist that there is a meeting, right? That there is a meet and greet at some point in the process. You like to get it early on. But sometimes they do it towards the end of the RFP process, as long as it's in there.
00:32:36
Speaker
So, I mean, that that is a really important thing, a get-to-know-you type of chemistry check. Very, very important. The second part of your question was, could production companies charge for treatments? And I think two there's two. Yes, I do think that's possible. And I don't know if you know this, but in Germany, their production association put it out there and and they're charging a lot for treatments and bids. And in Canada, they're starting to do some of that.
00:32:58
Speaker
and But they're a lot less than in Germany. And I think the U.S. s should really think about it. The trouble is, if you independent company is competing against a holding company and they're not charging for the treatment, then you're at a disadvantage. So just we just have to keep, like, who's bidding needs to be the question. But I do think that there needs to be a parameter around how much is appropriate to spend on a treatment? You know, is two or three grand, two or $3,000, you know, appropriate? Probably. Do you have to spend 5,000, 15,000, even 50,000 I've seen for some treatments because you really want to win the work? I think, you know, that's on you independent. Like ah the other part of this, I get there's this third part of this answer, which is sometimes it depends on who's managing the bidding process, but sometimes the brands don't even see the treatments.
00:33:43
Speaker
So who are you doing the treatment for? If you're doing it for the agency, to convince the agency, and then they you know the the the agency has to be managing the bidding process in a way that is productive. And if they're going to award themselves the work, then you're spending all this time and money making treatments that are never going to see the light of day because you're not going to get the work anyways. So I do think that we have the right to charge for bids and treatments in this industry.
00:34:07
Speaker
But the first step is to to make sure the behavior is appropriate. You know, like who exactly is managing the bidding process? Who is seeing the bids and the treatments? Who am I selling to? And how much do I really need to invest to win this work?
00:34:22
Speaker
New information comes in and the brands say, okay, we're we're changing gears. We're switching our creative. um Now, can you do another treatment? with additional bids and you're spending three, four, five, six weeks and bidding and bidding and bidding, I think at some point, that yes, you need to charge for the additional ah bids. Maybe the first bid and the first treatment are free of charge, but any additional treatments and bids, there's ah there's a fee.
00:34:47
Speaker
I think we could start there. That would be my suggestion. i you know I think too often times production companies are afraid to ask questions that seem to be getting into the business, but I think they have to ask the questions.
Closing Remarks and Invitation
00:34:59
Speaker
Definitely. How many people you go in competing against? Who are they? Who's the decision makers? What's the key factors in making the decision?
00:35:07
Speaker
All of these types of things. How much flexibility is in the budget? And if you can't get those answers, and a follow-up meeting after the intake call, all these types of things, if you can't get those, you're probably in a process that's already baked. You're probably not really high contender for the job. And likely you should just walk away instead of investing the time. Wasting your time. Yeah. Yeah. On the other hand, if you are being engaged and you are having all of that kind of conversation and it feels very honest, you probably are really truly part of it and should go and put the investment. Stick with it. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
Go for it. Okay, Jillian Gibbs, you are a fantastic guest on the show. Thank you for giving me all this ah information, sharing this with the listeners and being open to receiving hundreds and hundreds of people that are coming to you at these conferences. um It has been a delight. I encourage everybody to check out your book so you know what the clients and the brands are all looking at and what they need to know. It's really informative for that. Any other final words?
00:36:09
Speaker
yeah I want to thank you for the time to share ah my thoughts because i am ah I've been an advocate. I continue to be an advocate for the independence and for great work for the brands. So I would just say to everybody listening that you know keep on keeping on. Do great work. Nurture your talent. Build your niche, your specialty.
00:36:26
Speaker
Continue to innovate and and have fun while you're doing it. Yeah. Well, love it. To be continued. For sure. Thanks, James.
00:36:35
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S e b l a s dot com