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Freelance vs. Roster Directors with Luke Lashley
213 Plays3 months ago
The commercial production landscape is changing, and directors have more options than ever. While the traditional model of exclusive production company rosters still works for some, the rise of freelance directing is creating new opportunities. But how do you decide which path is right for you?
I sat down with Luke Lashley, founder of Departure, a production company that’s actively moved away from the roster-model, preferring to work with freelance directors. Luke shares insights on the advantages and challenges of both models, the growing trend toward independence, and what directors should consider when weighing their options.
We break down the practical side of freelancing—how to structure outreach, what production companies look for, and how to stay top of mind for jobs—while also discussing when being on a roster might be the right fit. Whether you’re weighing a switch to freelance, reassessing an exclusive deal, or just curious about where the industry is headed, this episode will help you make an informed decision about your career.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Keblis.
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning into the show.
Freelancing vs. Roster: A Director's Dilemma
00:00:27
Speaker
This episode is mostly for directors who are often faced with a critical decision. Should they go freelance or join a roster? Their traditional model of exclusive production company rosters has been the industry standard for years.
00:00:39
Speaker
It offers the perception of prestige and the comfort of having someone else handle the business development. But in today's landscape, with more and more production companies embracing freelancers, does that exclusivity still hold its value?
00:00:50
Speaker
For directors, the trade-offs are real.
Roster Model: Relevance and Trade-offs
00:00:52
Speaker
Stay on a roster and potentially limit your opportunities while avoiding the hassle of business development. Or go freelance. Gain more control, but take on the challenge of landing your own work.
00:01:02
Speaker
And for production company owners, the questions are just as pressing. Does maintaining an exclusive roster still make sense? Or is it time to rethink how directors are sourced and hired?
Industry Insights with Luke Lashley
00:01:11
Speaker
To unpack all of this, I'm joined by Luke Lashley, founder and executive producer of Departure, a production company that has moved away from the traditional Rostra model and embraced freelance directors.
00:01:22
Speaker
Luke has a unique perspective on how the industry is changing, the realities of exclusive agreements, and why he has seen more directors stepping into independence. In this conversation, we're not just looking at one right way to build a directing career, but Rather, we are weighing the trade-offs.
00:01:36
Speaker
We'll get into the myths around roster deals, what production companies actually look for when hiring, and the practical work it takes to thrive as a freelance director. Whether you're a director considering your next move or a production company owner wondering if the roster model still makes sense, this episode will hopefully give you the insight to make the best decision for your career or your business.
00:01:56
Speaker
So let's get into it. Luke, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You ready to stir the pot? Let's stir it. Lots to stir with, yeah. I've you know met you a couple of times now, and I really like your business and what you're trying to do. And ah i enjoy your perspective on things too. You you kind of come in with a a strong perspective. And I thought, let's get this recorded. I think it's something that I certainly see in the business of changes happening, freelances happening, but i also see how I still see shops marketing their directors. I see reps marketing people, directors, and wanting to be part of that. So this is fascinating right now. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing your point of view and what what you see from your side.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're certainly still marketing directors. you know Directors are, at the end of the day, who's being hired by the ad agency or by the brand. So i very much believe in marketing directors. I mean, that's what we're all about. There's a lot to unpack about how you do that and how does that look different from how it looked not all that long ago.
Departure's Evolution to Freelance Focus
00:02:54
Speaker
I want to get into the details of this, but before we do, we need to establish your credibility, Luke. with Yeah, yeah. As people hearing your words, you know we got to make sure that it's rooted in some experience. So tell me about you. um what How did you get into this business? What's departure?
00:03:10
Speaker
I grew up in the DV camera era. you know I was that kid shooting everything on the DV cam. I remember when the 5D came out. you know I fell in love with the craft at a young age, like most people do. I thought I was going to be a director.
00:03:24
Speaker
That was my life's goal from a pretty young age. I also had kind of an entrepreneurial bend to me. I started a ah wedding video business in high school. I think like my senior year, I shot something like 25 or 30 weddings. it was kind of crazy. i can't remember the exact number, but... That was your high school job. That was my high school job, shooting weddings. Yeah, won Texas Youth Entrepreneur of the Year my senior year. I mean, I was really proud of it and it was a killer experience. job for a high schooler working on the weekends. And that was awesome. But I still thought my calling was to be a director. And I had every intention of going to film school. I applied to NYU and UCLA and had a kind of business forward film application that I thought was cool. You know like my essays and stuff were about not just the like craft of filmmaking and not just the short films I had made, but talking about like budgets and stuff. The business of film. The business. I was into it. And I thought that was going to help me stand out. And I guess I was a little overly confident. um I thought I was for sure going, man. I only applied to two schools because I was just so sure of myself. And I got rejected at both.
00:04:31
Speaker
So... That kind of rocked me a little bit. And I did, yeah, some soul searching, ended up going to Texas State studying finance, and then kind of fell back in love with filmmaking almost like a second time in college. Started another ah wedding video business. So did that through college at Texas State. And that one was even better than the first. And I'm still, though, thinking I'm going to be a director. Like that was my...
00:04:54
Speaker
My dream. And then post-college, worked at a production company for a hot second and started getting plugged into kind of the film scene in Austin and pretty quickly noticed two things, which is one, wow there's some amazing directors out there.
00:05:08
Speaker
Just so talented. And that really struck me. And I also noticed, wow, there are a lot of like kind of business challenged business owners in our industry, you know, not necessarily incompetent, but just people who were film people running businesses.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I kind of had this moment in my early 20s of like realizing my highest and best use and maybe my calling is not directing. There's no shortage of amazing, talented people, but I could really have something to offer in terms of running a business and running it well and having a a savvy operation that did well. And so that was kind of a whole shift in my trajectory where I was like, all right, I'm not a director. I'm a producer. I'm an EP. I'm going to start a company. And I think that's what I have to offer. And that was over eight years ago now. So that's what's led me here.
00:05:54
Speaker
So let's talk about departure
Challenges with Traditional Rosters
00:05:55
Speaker
now. What was your, you know, what problem were you trying to solve with departure? What approach do you have that was, you know, novel and unique? And what does it look like right now?
00:06:05
Speaker
Sure. So at my previous production company, we repped directors every way you can. We had at one point a real roster, and I say real by, I'm using that word to say exclusive.
00:06:16
Speaker
I didn't like that. We also transitioned into what I kind of dubbed the quote unquote fake roster, you know names on the site, but there's really no underlying exclusivity terms or really like no underlying terms whatsoever.
00:06:29
Speaker
much at all, just names on a site to kind of look like you have a roster. Did that for a while and ended up having no roster, only working with freelancers and loved it. I loved it. It was better for me. It was better for the director. It was better for the agencies we were working with, whether they realized it or not. But I pretty quickly realized like our industry really isn't built for that. It's built out of this very like roster traditional era. And there seemed to be nobody or very few people championing that. And I just saw a huge opportunity to fully commit to that way of working, which to me seems like the future. And that really excited me, not just as like a business opportunity, but something I just really believed in. And so that led me close that production company and make this whole kind of transition into departure, which was, I mean, that happened about little over a year ago.
00:07:24
Speaker
Why did you like this model more? What about it did you think was better for you, the directors, the client? First, if you just start with a roster, like let's say you have actually fully exclusive directors.
00:07:35
Speaker
The problem with that, as I see it, is it's kind of like the whole thing of if if you're a nail or if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if you have an exclusive roster, your job at some level becomes selling your roster rather than providing a really excellent match to your client, to the agency.
00:07:56
Speaker
And at the end of the day, the agency is looking for an excellent match. So it seems like it's creating a dynamic between you and the person hiring you, like you and your customer. You're sort of forcing a product on them, not that directors are products, but you're forcing a solution on them that might not actually be the best solution.
00:08:12
Speaker
So I don't love that. The other option, so that's the full exclusive setup. The middle option is what we we also did this for a while, which is where you have you know the fake roster names on the site that aren't really exclusive. And I just think that's causing confusion.
00:08:28
Speaker
You don't want to create confusion in the marketplace. it's like, wait, are these people repped? Are they not? Are they independent? who Who are these directors? So introducing confusion into the marketplace seems like a bad idea as well.
00:08:40
Speaker
And then what unfortunately happens is there's places that have rosters that at some level of exclusivity, we can nerd out on this however much we want. But where maybe on top of having their exclusive roster, EPs are then also submitting like freelancers on the side saying, oh, well, maybe my roster is not the right fit for this, but I'll submit this freelancer to kind of cover a gap.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I think if that's what you're doing, you're really shortchanging the director. The director in exchange for giving you their exclusivity wants your exclusivity in return. So it seems like a situation where somebody is always going to lose.
00:09:14
Speaker
I share this opinion because I've seen it. And I think anyone that's worked in this business has seen it if they're being honest. And that is the roster model isn't completely honest in itself. It inspires, i mean, confusion is a diplomatic way of saying it, but I don't think it's completely honest. I think that there's ways that people are marketing that's not completely true.
00:09:35
Speaker
And what you're talking about, even on the you know executive producer side, choosing to submit directors that aren't part of that roster because that's what it's going to take to land the job. And that it's kind of just, we all know that this isn't completely transparent and honest, and but we're not saying anything about it. And I just think that I i don't like that myself. I think that it undermines the entire business, you know that the more transparent and the more honest that we are, the more clear to to your words about confusion, the better it serves
Transparency and Honesty in Representation
00:10:01
Speaker
everybody. and and daylighting that. What's the what's the saying? yeah Daylight's the best disinfectant, right? Let's be out there and be honest about it.
00:10:09
Speaker
That's out of my take. i feel like you are saying that in some level too. 100%. To kind of put a point on it, it's just if you're only pushing your roster, you're doing a disservice to your customer.
00:10:21
Speaker
If you're pushing other things aside from your roster, you're doing a disservice to your directors. And if you're faking a roster, you're just confusing people. So the clear and honest thing to do is to just step away from all of it and have no roster. and that's really how we communicate with directors. and And I think they find it refreshing.
00:10:41
Speaker
Directors, i I think, are used to hearing production companies come to them and they're saying, hey, we want to sign you. we can bring you all this work. And when we talk with directors, we almost kind of tongue in cheek go, we have zero interest in signing you and we cannot guarantee you any work at all.
00:10:58
Speaker
And While that might seem like a bad pitch, it's an honest one. And that's kind of what we're building around. but So let's frame this up a little bit. There's a lot of production companies that do operate on a roster that are legit. It is you know that it is a contractual relationship and everyone's abiding by the agreements. And there's like you know there's eight or whatever, 10 of them that we can name, right? That they're actually representing these people and they're probably bringing in enough money to these directors enough jobs to these directors that is a really it is a good deal for these directors they've earned that that that exists right and then there's another world where they pretend that exists because of the prestige of that but it doesn't and so that's i mean we're talking about two different worlds here we're not saying this model is completely broken we're just saying it's only for some groups and not for everybody is that a good characterization
00:11:49
Speaker
ah hundred percent It's working for a fairly small group comparatively to the entire
Supporting Working-Class Directors
00:11:55
Speaker
marketplace. I think this conversation is about the working class director.
00:12:00
Speaker
and that's what i That's how I describe it, working class. if If you're a director who is signed fully exclusively to one of the big eight production companies, we probably all know what big eight we're talking about.
00:12:13
Speaker
If you're assigned to one of those and all of your jobs are high six figure, low seven figure, national broadcast union work, we are not talking about you. We're talking about the directors who are making a career by helming spots that are in the mid to low six figure range that are a lot of times non-union and they need 10 or more jobs a year to make a decent or above decent living.
00:12:44
Speaker
And these are working class directors. They're doing well and the work is cool. It's just that we're not talking about the super hot shot folks right now. Do you have in your mind some kind of bright lines or ah numbers, indicators that would suggest if these aren't working for you? Like this is a conversation in a lot of ways for directors, right? To kind of make that decision about how they want to be represented and represent themselves.
00:13:06
Speaker
If it could be like, if you're not getting X amount of jobs at X amount of day rate, then don't do it. You know, is there anything in your mind that people can kind of use as a hard number?
00:13:18
Speaker
That's tough. I think it's also very personal. I think if you are a freelance independent director who is crushing it so much every year that you are consistently booking you know eight, nine, ten jobs a year freelance,
00:13:38
Speaker
$400,000 and you're like doing really well, but you really want to level up because you think your next move is to be that national broadcast union, all my work is and above kind of person, then exploring some very prestigious representation might make sense for you.
00:13:55
Speaker
But you're and up until then, I think it's you there's a lot of questions. And so ah even that person is kind of on the cusp of like being in that class of people we're really not talking about.
00:14:06
Speaker
Unless you're just really hitting the upper limit, then I think you could call a lot into question. And and i think even if you are in that upper limit, you do not you do not need represent state or you do not need to be exclusively represented to operate at that level. I mean, there are some directors who are at that level. And even they are independent. So I'm not saying freelance has limits. I actually think the opposite, but just at what point does it start to maybe actually not be a bad deal?
00:14:36
Speaker
i think it's kind of at that upper echelon, but. Yeah. The work's coming in and you didn't have to do much, just be a good artist, you know? Exactly. You know, like that's, that's, what there, there it is right there. If you have 10 of them a year, then that's, I would, why waste your time, you know, like enjoy, enjoy the situation.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah, and those folks aren't aren't aren't even doing 10 a year. you know they're They're not that kind of working class director we're talking about. They're doing ah maybe a smaller amount of jobs, and they're larger jobs at that. so But you could, i know of, I'm thinking of names right now who are in that kind of premium class that we're talking about, and they are also independent. So you don't need to go exclusive to continue leveling up.
00:15:16
Speaker
I believe you can always, always level up and you can never commit to an exclusive deal. It's 100% possible.
Real Client Needs vs. Roster Value
00:15:22
Speaker
I think what you're saying is the prestige part of being on a roster isn't what it used to be.
00:15:28
Speaker
You're seeing that trend and you're also suggesting to the creative directors or the decision makers who hire the production companies, you're you're implying that there isn't much value on their end, that Clients rarely care, is my point, you know, that you're seeing for that exclusive roster deal.
00:15:45
Speaker
They just wanted to talk to you and what you could put together, who you would put together and why. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, if we're, and again, we're talking about a specific subset of jobs here. We're talking about, we're not talking Super Bowl spots. We're not talking about maybe the biggest national broadcast campaign that Target's running that year. and These are campaigns under a million dollars.
00:16:07
Speaker
Campaigns under a million dollars, maybe regional broadcasts, or they might be national broadcasts, but they're still, comparatively speaking, midsize work. What you are looking for as a creative is you're looking for the person who's the best fit for the job.
00:16:21
Speaker
You're not looking for necessarily a superstar name brand. You want the best talent you can get, who is the best fit, And you want a production company who's going to show you a good time and is competent and you feel comfortable awarding the job to. But the creative is not interested in who represents that artist, as long as the artist is the right fit.
00:16:43
Speaker
So there's the myth of roster prestige like from both sides. You have the myth of roster prestige from like the director's point of view. And I think that myth is saying, like oh, it's going to help me win jobs if I am signed at XYZ company.
00:16:56
Speaker
And I don't think it will. They do not have as much of a preference as I think the director believes they do. And then there's the myth of roster prestige from the creative side, which is like, oh, we don't know who is right for this. So like, let's just go to this place.
00:17:13
Speaker
Because... They have good people. And i think that's really poor decision making. They should be looking for the right fit. And so I always encourage creatives to like, when you hear that a director is freelance, if they're in your bid pool, you should be excited about that.
00:17:29
Speaker
They're in your bid pool because they're a good fit. And if if they were on a roster, you don't know that. They might be in your bid pool because someone like pushed their roster on you. And I think in that sense, freelance is actually like quite a badge of honor.
00:17:43
Speaker
for for all parties. like From the director's side, it's it's saying, hey, I can do this on my own. My name brand has worth. I don't need to roll with a production company to have value. And I don't need to borrow brand equity from a firm. like i'm Me as a director, I am enough. And my name carries weight, like that's, in my opinion, like way more badass than getting signed. Like that's a really baller way to roll.
00:18:08
Speaker
And I think it's, that is some real prestige. And from the creative side, it's like, oh, wow, this freelancer is in my inbox. Like I, my producer said to watch this reel, like they must be here because they're a good fit, not because XYZ production company is just throwing the roster out.
00:18:24
Speaker
I think the term fit is interesting here because what fit means now versus what it meant maybe years ago is different. I think fit before was about
Freelance Trend: Creative Fit Over Names
00:18:34
Speaker
splash, you know, something really yeah having a name on your commercial and all that kind of stuff meant a lot more than it does now.
00:18:42
Speaker
And it probably still does for about 20% of the work, but 80% of the work ah that's out there, it's really the fit is determined by the business goals. Right. Like that's I think because we can track so much better now. We're so much smarter about how marketing dollars are effective, especially around video. And it just keeps getting better and better.
00:19:01
Speaker
I think that drives how fit is determined much more than just the other way that it used to be when that was less hard to do. And so big splash was a way to get attention and and have you know measurable results. So I don't know. That's a theory. I'm just kind of putting it out there. But it feels like that fit is different now. And that's why the freelance trend is probably growing.
00:19:23
Speaker
Fit has just gotten so specific. And creative fit around a director gets almost comedically specific. And and we're there we're talking about down to the technique. And what the creative team on the agency wants to see is they want to see their spot in your reel.
00:19:41
Speaker
They want to see that you've done something very similar, if not this exact same thing, because that gives them so much peace of mind. You can execute it And our industry is a very fear-based risk averse industry. So the level of specificity gets kind of ridiculous where it's like, hey, this is a comedy spot, but it's not just comedy. It's somebody speaking to camera and they're on a so set build in studio, but it's not any set build. It's monochromatic set build.
00:20:09
Speaker
And also at the very end, like a CGI butterfly comes up and says the punchline. and it's like, there's five layers of specificity there. And comedy is the first one and the most broad.
00:20:21
Speaker
And you the industry is so congested and and saturated that you can almost guarantee, I would put money, that there is somebody who will submit a reel that is direct-to-camera dialogue comedy on a monochromatic set with a CGI character. It might not be a butterfly, but maybe it's a hamster.
00:20:42
Speaker
right And it's like it's practically the spot. And that's incredible. And that is a luxury that's available to the creative. And if I'm on that creative team, I want that person.
00:20:53
Speaker
And that's what we seek to provide as departure is just really pretty wildly specific creative fits. And you can only do that through freelance. Yeah.
Advice for Aspiring Directors
00:21:03
Speaker
And this this parallels the broader trend of you know generalist versus specialist. And those trends change all of the time. you know When tools became so ubiquitous and everyone had them, generalist was everything because you could do everything.
00:21:16
Speaker
And then people got good at them and they become specialized. And i think we're in a hyper specialized phase right now. And I think the more that's going to continue to grow for a long time until it doesn't. But for a while, it's going to be more and more specialized, which fits this model even more and makes a case for it.
00:21:30
Speaker
So let's talk about, there's a group of people that roster makes sense for. We're putting that on the shelf. For the ones who it doesn't make a lot of sense for, we're following our case. I want to have these folks realize what it takes. If they're going to take on that business development piece themselves, how do they become a successful freelancer? How do they shop themselves around? What are some practical things? What do you look for? Let's talk about it from first person point of view. What are pieces of advice and direction you would give these directors as they try to really have success in their freelance career?
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, what we look for is a specific craft done well that has some like minimum viability of being sold. And that's really it. I mean, that's really all we look for. Because again, we're here.
00:22:17
Speaker
Departure exists to find and provide like perfect matches to creative briefs. So we make a deliberate effort to not get caught up in the thinking of like, oh, wow, this director has really nice work. It's like well, what is nice work?
00:22:28
Speaker
That's a very relative judgment. And we are looking for, do you do something specific? Do you do that specific thing well? And can I like ballpark kind of what budget range you're doing this thing in?
00:22:41
Speaker
Because there are, you know, tabletop shoots for $80,000 and there's tabletop shoots for $700,000 and those are not going to be done by the same person, but there's a person that's a perfect fit for both of them. And we have total like deference to both, you know, like we just want to have the perfect fit. So that's what we look for. It's just a specific thing done well.
00:23:02
Speaker
Is there any general number
Effective Management of Freelance Relationships
00:23:05
Speaker
of directors that you put on jobs that you're bidding for that you are putting into the job because they were already on your radar? they' done There's been some connection made already and you just, wow, there perfect I got this one's perfect versus there's a job here.
00:23:20
Speaker
We don't know who, we don't know the perfect, we have to go find them. And then you go out there and looking for them. what percent is fifty fifty or, you know, that all these were around. We have a whole database. We have a CRM. We have whatever. And we can just call on it real quick. We keep tags and all this kind of stuff on them versus ah we have to go find this person. And if you go find them, where do you look?
00:23:38
Speaker
A hundred percent of the boards we receive, we respond to with directors we already have. So youre yeah, you you you keep enough in your community that you can just go.
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah. i I won't share the number right now, but the number we have is ah insane. it's It's a really large number and we're working to make it even larger. And once that number reaches a certain point, we will go public with what it is, but it's it's a it's a very huge number.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah. So this is a database of directors. Yes. How does a director get into your database in such a way that makes it easy for you to find them, know them, that they're the right person for the job when that opportunity comes? Because we're human. So we're going to, you know, we we want the easiest path with the least amount of friction. So what do they do to make sure that that exists for you?
00:24:27
Speaker
Well, we put a ton of work into actively scouting and we do outbound reach out all day, every day to directors. So we are constantly developing our talent offering. I mean, that's really what we believe in is just having an incredible, broad and deep talent offering. So we put a lot of work into that. But inevitably, folks reach out to us as well. And when we get a when I get an email, I just...
00:24:51
Speaker
I prefer the email to be fairly brief. You know, I don't need some long story about your whole directing journey. ah Very brief to the point, hey, i'm I'm James. I'm based in Toronto. I direct automotive.
00:25:06
Speaker
It's kind of lifestyle automotive stuff. Most of my work has been in like the 200 range. Here's my real, holler at me, I'm freelance. Like that's all it takes. That's a really cool email to get.
00:25:17
Speaker
Because now I know who James is where he is, what kind of work he does. And not just, I mean, automotive is really broad, but maybe you've kind of boxed me into, I do studio automotive. It's mostly like showroom stuff.
00:25:30
Speaker
So now I've got a pretty good idea of what you do without even looking at your work. And you've even kind of told me what level you're at. Budget wise, we will 100% of the time click on that reel, look at the work. And if we're intrigued by it, we will 100% of the time take that call.
00:25:45
Speaker
And then we want to meet you and say what's up. And since you're freelance, that's what's so cool is it kind of stops there. It's like, cool, now we know you. And you can go on and do your thing. And as James, you can go do that same thing with 30 other companies, which you probably should.
00:26:01
Speaker
And if you're lucky, you'll get one or two from us this year. And, you know, most of the 30 companies you email won't bring you any work, but 10 of them will. And there's 15 jobs and you just made a few hundred grand and you're living a good life.
00:26:15
Speaker
So the email that comes to you cuts to the chase, ah the basics, and gives you a real clear indicator of what you specialize in, what you are particularly good in.
00:26:26
Speaker
Remember, it's not just what you do, right? You do other things too, but you'd be hard to press to find someone better than you in this one particular area. And here's a reel to show my evidence of that.
00:26:36
Speaker
The budget ranges are this, would love to meet you. If someone sent that email, you'd be we've got to meet this person. You know, we get that email frequently and we like it. And, and i that's totally the, i love getting that email and And it shouldn't be a montage reel. I'm sure directors listening to this know that. But on the off chance you're thinking about it like a montage, like super cut reel, we're talking finished spots.
00:26:57
Speaker
And you really only need five of them. And that's, i was going to go right into the reel next here because that's a big one. I think too often these montage reels are just a waste of time.
00:27:08
Speaker
It's not clear what you did in it. they that So many people misuse them. That's hard to trust them. Yeah, I like not having a montage reel. I agree. And that's not a hot take. I mean, that's, I think, I don't know anybody who uses montage reels anymore. But I would just say, if we're talking about like email mechanics, I would just, ah I would not hyperlink individual spots. If you go, for example, here, and later on the email, it's, for example, here,
00:27:33
Speaker
kind of putting a lot of work on us to like click and like figure your reel out i would just love you to say hey here's a link to my reel and i click on it and maybe it's taking me to a frame io or it's taking me to a vimeo and it's your it's your collection of work and that collection of work can be as big as you want if you've got 15 spots you're proud of then then great i think less is probably more but A centralized location for your portfolio is a freelancer's best friend because we don't want to have to go track your work down each time. And you know you're doing work throughout the year. You finish a new spot. You want to update all your EP friends about it because you're a freelancer.
00:28:13
Speaker
The best thing to do is just throw it on that Frame.io link that everyone else already has or that Vimeo link, whatever you use. And you can just send out an email to all your EP friends and say, hey, you know just did this fresh thing for Toyota. It's on my Frame.io link. You already have my Frame.io link, but repasting it here. like This is my where my portfolio lives.
00:28:32
Speaker
Hunting down work is never fun. So make it easy to find it. And i'll I'll make a plug here for if any directors are kind of, you know, doing their own business development like this, and they're probably using Google Workspace, you know, for their email and all that kind of stuff. I highly recommend a CRM, like highly recommended. And I would recommend Copper because it integrates with the Google workspace environment better than anyone else. And it's easy. And so you don't have to be an expert at a tool. It's just kind of meet you where your inbox is. And there's a free version. i mean, you can actually do a lot of this and you can email a lot of people at once. You can do a lot of management, you actually doing that kind of outreach and all that kind of stuff with just a little bit of organization is actually not that hard. I think that they would, they should do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you if you want a CRM, that's totally up to them as a freelancer, 100%. I would just flag if you're a freelancer listening to this, or maybe you're a sign director thinking about going freelance, and that's really an interesting person to talk to which we can kind of drill down on that more if you'd like. But I threw out the number 30 companies earlier.
00:29:37
Speaker
That's a pretty big number. Most freelancers I know don't have 30 30 EPs they're networking with and getting submitted by. if you have 30 EP friends, like that's pretty high. And I think on the spectrum of like CRMs, 30 accounts that you're juggling and nurturing is a really small number. So I mean, you could, I think, be a very successful freelancer and really all you're doing is like nurturing 15 relationships. How easy is that? I mean, you can memorize 15 people in your brain.
00:30:07
Speaker
it's It's not a volume-based strategy. Compared to roster, roster is a volume of one freelance might be a volume of 15. So you have 15 acts to your volume, but still it's just 15. Like it's still a small number.
00:30:20
Speaker
I guess I, I diverge a little bit on that. I think if you're doing 15, everything's hard for me. So yeah there's everything. Nothing's easy. Nothing's fast. Nothing's simple. Everything is complicated.
00:30:32
Speaker
And so if you're kind of, you know, if you're trying to keep 15 production companies in the know what you're doing, you might as well, same skill, you can do 30 with the same level of effort. Why not? Why not? Sure. If that's your jam, 100%, I just wouldn't want to paint the picture to a freelancer or to somebody thinking about going freelancer, like, oh, going to have to get all this software and I'm going to have new stuff. It's like, dude, it's it's easy. like Google Workspace account, Frame.io. The Notes app in your phone. You know, like it's 15, 20 people tops.
00:31:03
Speaker
And that's a really small number. It's very manageable. And it feels to me that the market benefits the director currently because there are so many production
Navigating High Submission Volumes
00:31:13
Speaker
companies. I mean, there's so everybody's doing video and everyone's got their hand in the cookie jar that there's so many production companies that the market's okay for you to be able to expect to find enough work to make it worth it.
00:31:25
Speaker
Do you agree? Yeah. If everybody did what I wish they would do, I would agree with you. But unfortunately, I actually think it's a really tough environment for the director right now.
00:31:36
Speaker
And because of rosters and because of desperation, submissions on briefs are way too high. So most briefs are going to get well over 100 submissions, 200, 300 submissions.
00:31:50
Speaker
two hundred three hundred I know a brief recently that got a thousand reels. No joke. A thousand. That's a huge problem. And it's an unmanageable amount of work for the agency.
00:32:01
Speaker
They can't watch all that. They won't watch all that. They don't watch all that. And it creates a lot of wasted work, you know, directors and production companies submitting on stuff that maybe not even doesn't even get watched.
00:32:13
Speaker
And it means that even if you're the perfect fit, you might just be lost in the stack. And I think if everyone did a better job of only submitting on things, that they were actually a really, really good fit for, the stack would shrink.
00:32:27
Speaker
The only reason the stack is 300 reels deep is because people are pushing rosters, directors are going for stuff that they're not a good fit for, and sales reps aren't doing their job and their job should be filtering reels, but they're not because everyone's hungry and everyone wants work. And so they're just piling on.
00:32:43
Speaker
And that creates a really, really tough way to win. And then agency sort of stuck making a decision like, well, like we're going to scroll through this list and just hope we find somebody and you might be lost in the stack. So actually, think it's really, really tough to cut through as a direct right now.
00:32:59
Speaker
And that wouldn't be the case if people had a little bit more. little bit more discerning. ah Yes. If they were more discerning in what they submitted for, maybe that stack of 300 reels is now only 70 and could all 70 be watched 100%? And if you're actually really good at what you're doing, will you maybe get bid?
00:33:19
Speaker
Maybe. i think your observation is good. And I think it once again supports the need to stand out through specialization. That's what we're trying to build with Departure, where I think there's a lot of prestigious rosters that exist. If you need to hire for prestige reasons, which we don't need to nerd out on that. I don't know if you ever need to hire for prestige reasons, but if you believe you do, you know, there's places you can go.
00:33:42
Speaker
The brand we're trying to build is every time I watch a Departure reel, it's freaking perfect. Because if we're in that stack of 300, we want people to know to watch it because we don't waste people's time. We only send DNA fits.
00:33:54
Speaker
And let's talk about sending bids, boards, treatments, all that along, just to coach the freelance director a little bit on what to expect and what not
Red Flags in Production Companies and Freelancing Tips
00:34:04
Speaker
to expect in this. And probably many of them have been through all of this already, but just for good measure, when you are freelancing, that does not mean you should be doing free work on behalf of the production company, right? Like that's one of the things that I always get nervous about is,
00:34:16
Speaker
production companies going for the work and asking for the directors to do all of the work and if they get the job, then we can talk about pay. That's not what we're saying here. No, no. I think some red flags if you're bidding with a company that you've never bid with If they don't invest in treatment support, red flag.
00:34:35
Speaker
Hiring designers, image pullers, maybe writers, things you need to successfully put forward a good treatment in time. I think that, and that costs money, but the production company is going to pay for it. and But I think it's a huge red flag if they go, hey, we don't pay for treatment support. like We expect you to design it yourself. Or hey if you want a designer, like you you need to hire it, which I've unfortunately heard stories of. And I think that's wild and a huge red flag that maybe this company doesn't know what they're doing. And i in general, I just think as a freelancer, you just need to be kind of sniffing out folks who might not know what they're doing and have just a healthy appreciation for how
00:35:14
Speaker
low barrier to entry it is to start a production company. I mean, you can throw up a Squarespace, call yourself an EP and get a sales rep in the same week. There's a lot of sales reps that are taking on clients they probably shouldn't and are hungry. And then now you have a sales rep. Now you have boards and If you're submitting on boards, you will eventually catch a bid just by out of sheer luck.
00:35:36
Speaker
And you might have just caught a bid with a production company that is kind of asleep at the wheel. And you just got to keep an eye out for that. Things like treatment supports a red flag. I think if they're right out of the gate saying, hey...
00:35:50
Speaker
we can't afford your rate. Like, here's what we have. And it's like, maybe they're proposing a number that's 40% of your rate and they're not telling you what the budget is or they're saying, oh, the budget's about this. You're like, hey, can I see a top sheet? And they're going, oh no, we don't share that. It's like, these are some red flags that this place has either sketchy or maybe amateur hour.
00:36:08
Speaker
And you either distance yourself from that company as a freelancer and kind of take them out of your little 15 to 30 company lineup, or you just withdraw from the bid and say, hey, like this, this isn't for me and withdraw, which there are tasteful and ethical ways to withdraw from a bid if the work's already begun.
00:36:23
Speaker
Then what about the DGA? do what's What variable does that have into this for freelancers? The DGA is not a variable to this at all in terms of they don't care if you're a freelancer signed and they have no influence on whether you are. you know that is Signed freelance DGA, doesn't matter. The DGA exists enforce uniform pay, you know safe work standards and working conditions and contractual protections against like copyright stuff. I mean, and I'm not an expert on the DGA, but they're there to protect you and then also offer perks like health insurance and retirement and things like that. But they have no bearing on your freelance status.
00:37:05
Speaker
And so maybe the DJ makes sense to you because most of you the companies you work with are union shops who are set up to run DGA jobs and you're kind of at that level and You want the insurance and the and the benefits. like It might make sense to go DGA, but we don't have a preference and it doesn't really impact if you're exclusive or not.
00:37:24
Speaker
So if there's one group that really needs to hear this and think about where they are and where they want to potentially go, who's that group and what are you saying to them?
00:37:36
Speaker
I think the group that needs to hear this the most is the directors who are signed to exclusive deals of some sort, whether it's semi-exclusive or fully exclusive, but they have pledged some level of exclusivity to a, call it medium-sized company.
00:37:54
Speaker
Maybe not one of those big eight like we were talking about, but a a nice company, a reputable one that does cool work. But they're still struggling. The director is still struggling because they're not quite getting enough.
00:38:06
Speaker
And they're I think that director is in a really tough spot. I think so, so many directors are in that exact spot. They are signed somewhere cool. They're getting a lot of work from that cool place. But it is not quite enough and they're barely squeaking it despite all the cool stuff they're doing. And they are scratching their chin going...
00:38:22
Speaker
Man, would it make more sense to jump? And I really hope those people hear it. Because you're saying make the leap. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying if you're that person who's doing premium work at a pretty cool place, you are going to kill it as a freelancer. You're about to step onto the freelance scene with a lot of cool work that's just premium.
00:38:41
Speaker
primed for that $300,000, $400,000, $500,000 budget. yeah That's what you've been doing this whole time. You do six of those a year through that one company, but you really kind of need 11 to be doing as well as you want to be doing it financially speaking. Gosh, like you should you should so jump.
00:38:58
Speaker
You're going to kill it as a freelancer. Come on in. The water's fine. Water's fine. And if your EP, if the company you're at has given you a ah hard time about jumping, I think you can poke some pretty compelling holes in that. Ask that EP, say, hey, like, are you submitting freelancers?
00:39:14
Speaker
Odds are they probably are. These are the kinds of questions you can have, ah hopefully, an honest conversation with them about. Yeah. And when they go, well, yeah, we submit freelancers, but it's hard to sell them. like we It's going to be so hard to sell you if you go freelance. like Well, then if it's hard to sell them, why are you submitting them now?
00:39:28
Speaker
Clearly you can sell them because you already do. So why don't you let me go a freelance? We can still be homies. so We can still work. We can still be friends. We can totally still do all the things we're doing. Just let me go get those other six jobs that I need.
00:39:40
Speaker
Luke Lashley, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thanks for sharing your perspective on this and good luck in departure. Thank you. Yeah, this was great. Thanks for having me.
00:39:53
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S e b l a s dot com