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Going Beyond the Brief with Jason Bellue
114 Plays1 month ago
Most people underestimate the importance of the first intake call and going beyond the client’s creative brief. In this episode, I sit down with Jason Bellue from Flying House Media to talk about what it really means to go beyond the brief—and why onboarding starts well before a contract is signed. We dig into how asking better questions eliminates guesswork, reveals real client goals, and helps you build treatments that actually hit the mark. When you lead the intake process with strategy and clarity, you’re not just gathering info—you’re previewing what it’s like to work with you. This episode is about disrupting the sales process, taking control of the conversation, qualifying opportunities, and knowing when to walk away. If you’ve ever left an intake call unclear about what the client really needed, this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Keblis.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome listeners, and thank you for tuning in into the show.
Excelling in Direct-to-Brand Client Work
00:00:27
Speaker
Today's topic is about going beyond the brief, something every production company should get good at if they want to increase their direct-to-brand client work.
00:00:35
Speaker
Traditionally, a lot of the strategic heavy lifting, like understanding business goals, defining the target audience, and shaping creative around outcomes, has been handled by agencies.
Leading Beyond Traditional Briefs
00:00:45
Speaker
But as more production companies are hired directly by brands, they're being asked to do more than just execute.
00:00:50
Speaker
They're being asked to lead. And to do that well, you can't just respond to a brief. You need to dig deeper, ask better questions, and uncover the real stakes behind the work. That's how you become more than a vendor.
00:01:01
Speaker
You become a creative partner, or even better, a creative guide.
Jam Session with Jason Ballou
00:01:05
Speaker
So today, we're going to run through some ways you can go beyond the brief with practical, actionable ideas you can use right away on your next intake call.
00:01:13
Speaker
And instead of the usual interview format, I'm switching things up a bit. This episode is more of a jam session, a back and forth between me and my guest, where we each bring some ideas to the table and we exchange reaction stories and experiences.
Insights from Jason's Production Journey
00:01:26
Speaker
And joining me for this conversation is Jason Ballou, founder of Flying House Media, a full-service video production company based in Chicago. Before founding Flying House, Jason spent more than a decade on Oprah Winfrey's team at Harpo Studios.
00:01:39
Speaker
It's easy to imagine that's where he honed his instinct for creating not just standout content, but the psychological and empathetic DNA to dive deeper into a client's goals and get them the best outcomes. That's why I've asked Jason to team up with me for this episode, because I knew he'd bring his sharp client-first thinking and insights.
00:01:55
Speaker
So Jason, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, James. I got to tell you, this is a ah conversation I've been very much looking forward to having. So thanks for having me. Well, thanks for joining me. So did I characterize the source of your POV right, or am I giving Oprah way too much credit here?
00:02:10
Speaker
No, no, I actually don't think you can give Oprah too much credit. So I think you you hit that one right on the head. I learned so much from being there, and I carry it with me still to this day. So beyond Oprah, where does your point of view come from? why don't you give us some background on your path into production?
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my path into production... was a wayward one. I never really knew what I wanted to do until I i fell into a job at MTV working on reality shows like The Osbournes and Newlyweds Nick and Jessica.
00:02:39
Speaker
And that's where I really fell in love with it. i was I was just a tape logger to start with and started really falling in love with the production process. So then when I had this opportunity to get a job at Oprah, at that point, it was just like your master's class. you know To go in and Yes, I learned everything I needed to know about production, but what I really learned was how it impacts people and how you can approach everything, like you said, with that empathetic kind of mindset and really understand how to make an audience hang on your every word.
00:03:07
Speaker
So i you know I never would have imagined that I would have gone from the Osbournes to Oprah to then running my own full service production company, but That's the path it took me on.
Flying House Media's Niche in Storytelling
00:03:18
Speaker
And honestly, little things that I learned from each one of those steps, I can still see them kind of poking their head in every once a while with clients and projects that I'm working with today.
00:03:27
Speaker
I see it in how you present Flying House. When you were working at Harpo, and do you see some problem in the in the marketplace that you think you can address? You know, is there an issue that isn't being handled right? And you think, you know what, I could do this really, really well. And was that the source of inspiration for starting your own company?
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, it really was. Because I'll say that at at the time that I left Oprah, what I had noticed so often was this concept of corporate video, talking head video, this series of videos of people like you know sitting in a white room with just a plant in the corner for a little set dressing, and then just speaking very robotically. And I just kept thinking, when I watch this content, nothing about it makes me want to take any sort of action.
00:04:09
Speaker
and And I would actually get frustrated in seeing some of this, just saying like, how are you not telling a story? You've got opportunity. And so that was the impetus where I thought I could take the same kind of storytelling I've been doing for the last decade, you know, really meaningful stuff that that pulls at your heartstrings or or gives you that, as she would call it, aha moment.
00:04:26
Speaker
Why can't that be the same way for what we now call corporate video, which is a word that I don't even allow here anymore because it doesn't It just doesn't jive with the way I see storytelling. So that was exactly what had me kind of think that starting Flying House was the next big thing is I was going to take that Oprah style storytelling approach and really bring it to brands.
00:04:45
Speaker
Nice. Paint a picture of what Flying House is today. You're based in Chicago. What kind of work are you doing? What's your typical kind of business? Yeah. So we've we've discovered a niche without even really realizing it initially. One of our early clients was a a pharmaceutical company, a therapeutics company.
00:05:02
Speaker
And we started doing more and more work with them over the years until we realized that patient stories could not be more aligned with what I had been doing in my career. These are people that you know face some of the most difficult challenges I've ever heard in my life, living with rare diseases or chronic diseases that I realized this is my wheelhouse. This is the kind of storytelling I love because I can really sink my teeth into it and understand how these things impact the person as a whole.
00:05:28
Speaker
So over the last several years, we've kind of really shifted into that being our niche. We love working in the medical space, the pharmaceutical space, the wellness space. So now our clients kind of range from a variety of different pharma companies to we've worked with Weight Watchers and and others. And it's really everything we do is driven around that testimonial style, real person story. And that's though that's where we've gotten to today, where we've kind of had the opportunity to elevate that content.
00:05:56
Speaker
And what a ripe area for leaning into what you're trying to get people to understand, whether it's a social cause or whether it's eradicating a disease or servicing people that are sick or, you know, breakthroughs in medical technology
Challenges in Direct Client Engagement
00:06:10
Speaker
or whatever. I mean, you,
00:06:11
Speaker
you do have to kind of go into why are you making these videos for what a purpose you're trying to fundraise you trying to sell a product is there something like right there's a and my guess is that a lot of these clients probably don't have a lot of experience with agencies to begin with am I do have that right?
00:06:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, they they definitely don't often have experience with the video production realm. They'll have their agencies that that can do you know their their big creative ads and print ads, things like that. But when it comes to video production early on, we realized there was not a lot of experience directly with them.
00:06:43
Speaker
And I'll tell you, one of the most exciting parts about it, and I think from my background was another thing we noticed is that we have a phrase around here that symptoms are not the story. And so we so often saw stories being told, reducing people to the symptoms they're experiencing.
00:06:57
Speaker
And I think what's been most exciting for me is to kind of bring that different mindset in that that says you can share the symptoms, but that's not the whole story. And you have to tell a story in a way that paints a picture of a whole person so that you care about why those symptoms are impacting them. So you have a reason to listen to the hardships. And so I think that has really kind of helped us transition into this niche in that we've we've just developed a keen eye for revealing people as a whole rather than just a list of symptoms and a timeline of diagnosis and things like that.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, I love that a lot. Let's dive into this. I think we've set the stage pretty well for this, but let's give a little context here.
Going Beyond Briefs: A Strategic Approach
00:07:33
Speaker
You know, if you were talking to production companies and listeners here, we're not, but this really isn't for when you're going to agencies to find agency work. It's really when you're going direct to branch, when you're bypassing the agency, you're playing the agency role.
00:07:44
Speaker
And then if we're talking about going beyond the brief, why don't you start by saying what you think it means to go beyond the brief? Yeah. What's funny about this is early on when I started the company, you know I came from television and I think I'm a hotshot and I know all these things. And then I start a company and I start working directly with a brand and I realize I don't know anything.
00:08:03
Speaker
And so I went from being at you know the pinnacle of TV to the low man on the totem pole who suddenly finds himself out of his depth. And i think what that meant early on for me was whatever they said they wanted, i was here to execute for them.
00:08:18
Speaker
and And I think you said this in your intro that what I learned very quickly was it goes beyond just executing, but bringing in your expertise. So to me, you know learning to go beyond the brief meant trusting my own instincts, ditching the imposter syndrome and realizing that I do have a unique perspective to bring as does my team and leaning into that. So that means not asking just what is the budget, how many cameras and people and what is the story we're telling, but instead kind of uncovering the entire purpose behind all of this.
00:08:46
Speaker
learning who the audience is we're trying to reach, learning who the people are that we're working with and what their personal goals are, and being confident enough to say, i love the idea you have, and here's how we think we can make it even better.
00:08:58
Speaker
So to me, that's what that brief is all about is we may be told that we have a project coming up for a patient with a specific disease. And that's where I can dig deeper and understand what are the emotional impacts of this disease that they're having? How does it affect your typical patient?
00:09:14
Speaker
So that I understand what the audience is thinking about. I understand what the person I'm talking to is thinking about. And then I understand what the goals of the company and the client are. so So to me, I mean, going beyond the brief really means having a full understanding of why we do what we do instead of just, like you said, being a vendor and saying, here, I can push these buttons if you pay me.
00:09:33
Speaker
You said something really profound. You said the client and the company, and you differentiated those two. And I love that. I think the client is a person and very different than the
Engaging Clients with Thoughtful Intake
00:09:43
Speaker
brand. And I think we're going to talk about that a little bit. The only thing that I'll add to what you just said on, you know, what it means to go beyond the brief and why is a few things that I've thought of is, you know,
00:09:52
Speaker
And I learned this from the great Blair Enns, who talks about the sale is the sample, right? Like you're selling in the beginning, you're negotiating, you're having an intake call, you're trying to learn what the client needs, what you can do if there's a budget, if there's experience, all of the things that go into that. But you want to give them a sample of what it's going to be like to work with you. And by diving in and getting into the work and showing that you've done the work, the homework, and you're all that is showing them what's going to be like to work. You're going to be like that. And if you don't do that, you're also showing the client what it's like to work with you, that maybe you You know, you're you're not giving it a hundred percent.
00:10:23
Speaker
The other part of it is it eliminates guesswork in your proposal making. If doing treatments, you're doing any like, you shouldn't be guessing at all. If it's right, there should be no big reveal. And to see if you got it right, like it's a new York times news quiz. It's, you know, it's, you should have all of the answers to put a together a treatment proposal, whatever it is you're issuing them with extraordinary clarity and targeted toward it because you made them give you the answers and it should be that way. And then the last part is that, you know how you differentiate yourself from the competition.
00:10:51
Speaker
You know, a lot of people triple bidding, you know, they're required to do it and you just got to really stand out. And by having this really deep engagement, getting into the business, understanding personal, professional business goals, all of those kinds of stuff beyond the brief, I think most companies don't do that. And so it gives you a chance to stand out. So these are kind of my areas about why this is important too.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I could not agree more with with each one of them. I mean, when you talk about the opportunity to stand out, there are thousands of production companies out there that are doing great work. But that experience starts with that first call. Like you said, and understanding who it is I'm working with starts with the first time that we communicate.
00:11:26
Speaker
And that part is just so important. And then I'm sure we've both learned the hard ways when we didn't prepare enough from that intake call. And then we are asking questions during you know during a treatment session. That's panic mode. So so i couldn't agree with you more.
00:11:39
Speaker
All right, well, let's dive in. I want to go back and forth and and have a dialogue on this thing. Let's frame into it. So which one do you want to start with? I think starting first with the most important part of the intake call is to walk in with questions, but be prepared to throw them out and run this entire call as a discovery session.
00:11:56
Speaker
So I think what I've learned throughout the years is that the best intake calls are not rigid. They're not formulaic. They are revealing. So when you go into that call, your purpose needs to be, i don't just need to ask questions about the logistics and the numbers.
00:12:10
Speaker
I need to understand what the true underlying purpose of all of this is. Because the the truth of the matter is when you are digging and you are asking these questions that show that you're interested in what their goals are or you're interested in who their audience is or you want to learn more about the why, I think when you take these and intake calls and you start with why,
00:12:29
Speaker
That's going to answer all your questions and more. And it's also going to give you that opportunity to provide insight into what you need to execute it. And you can start kind of revealing a little ah bit of that during the intake call.
00:12:40
Speaker
So when you say, now I understand what you're going for, and I think what could be really cool is something like this. You can get, even in an intake call, you can test the waters a little bit and and understand if they're liking what your approach is and kind of bring that into your treatment.
00:12:52
Speaker
So for me, it's always definitely being prepared with questions, but being more prepared to throw them out. Are there any signals that come to mind that tells you it's time to ditch the script? yeah For me, these days, it's usually the moment the call starts where where I'm just like, you know what?
00:13:07
Speaker
It's just not my style to work off a list of questions. So ah it usually starts pretty quickly if it is a brand new client. If it's the first time I've ever worked with somebody, I think where I usually know it's time to move on from the questions is if you can literally see a client starting to get bored, where they're like, all of these things are in the ah RFP.
00:13:25
Speaker
Even when you're asking clarity, you see them kind of glazing over. At that moment, I'm like, I got to hit them with something. interesting I have to hit them with something unique, a question that reveals our way of thinking. And so that's when you start saying things like, I noticed in our research that people who live with this disease often feel this way.
00:13:41
Speaker
And I want to know if that's something that you'd like to capture in this. and now all of a sudden you see them wake up and realize these guys came to play. They did their research and already I've got them thinking, this is an approach
Trusting Instincts in Production Work
00:13:53
Speaker
that is going to get the most out of this story. So I look for for one of two things, my own level of boredom and their level of boredom.
00:14:00
Speaker
And that's usually when I know it's time to pivot. I have this thing that I've worked with many teams. i'm I'm not shy. So when I get in these intake calls, I'm you know like kind of leaning into it. like I like it. But you know sometimes not everyone's like that, the directors, the creatives, whatever, the producers.
00:14:16
Speaker
And people are feeling things. They're not saying those things. They don't listen to it. And I have found, oh, it's been proven to me many times. If you feel it, if you don't understand it, if it doesn't make sense, you will not look dumb for asking the question. In fact, just the opposite will happen. like I think too often we approach these intake calls as though we have to be the smartest person in the room. Like you have to know all the answers. You have to have it.
00:14:40
Speaker
And it's the opposite. You should walk into these like, I don't know anything. Treat me like I'm a toddler. I don't know anything. Make it make sense to me because and and like hammer the stuff that doesn't add up. Challenge verify all of those things that are in that brief and in the RFP, take them to the logical conclusion to see if it fits, if it reconciles, things like that. like If your gut is telling you, act on that. The clients like it it. It has been proven to me many times over.
00:15:06
Speaker
Well, don't you ever notice too, like if you think you have a question, but you're like, ah, maybe I think I understand the answer. 10 times out of 10, you will find out later that your gut was 100% right and you didn't understand it.
00:15:17
Speaker
Or even when you get to the end and you're you're delivering a product and you're like, ah, that edit bothers me a little, but they probably won't notice. They notice every time because your gut is literally telling you, ask this question. so So you're right. I mean, I don't think there's ever been a time with a client during an intake call or otherwise where we're asking a question from a place of ignorance or confusion ever had a negative result. It has always resulted in a positive.
00:15:42
Speaker
So ask questions, but get ready to throw them out and go off, go rogue when the moment presents itself to do that or you feel something.
Building Trust through Team Dynamics
00:15:50
Speaker
Going rogue is my go-to. That is my motto in every way. And I spend a lot of time in the the director's chair interviewing people and i I follow my own script on that too. I think going rogue is what keeps it exciting.
00:16:02
Speaker
That was good. That's good. First one. I like that right out the gate. i'm I'm going to go in with one. You ready? Yep. Let's do it. Have your team introduce themselves in the context of the client's job.
00:16:13
Speaker
So turn the role call into role play. You know, I always talk about like that very first call that you have is onboarding. Onboarding doesn't begin when you get the s SOW signed.
00:16:23
Speaker
Onboarding begins in that very first call. So bring that client on in a way that they see themselves with your team. So you might say, you know, I'm Sarah. I'm the head of production. I'll be your main point of contact during pre-pro and on set, making sure everything runs smoothly.
00:16:36
Speaker
that You said this shoot takes place at three different locations. I'm the one that's making sure that these locations all work. you're They're seeing themselves, you're you managing them, and they can breathe and they can like like, oh my God, this person's already taking care of me. They've already thought about it.
00:16:50
Speaker
or I'm the creative director, I'll be reviewing all the ideas in the boards to make sure that everything that we come up with, every technique matches up to the goals that we figure out that we're going through the process. Nothing gets by me without doing like you're saying hello, you're introducing yourself and you're putting you and your team in the context of this job and having the client see that it's a great way to show that the sample of what it's going to be like to work with you. I think it's often overlooked and it's too often of People saying too much about themselves or not enough about themselves, or they say something without the context. They think that the client knows all of the jargon and terminology and how things work. They don't oftentimes. So getting in there and doing that work, doing that role play.
00:17:27
Speaker
like i love you saying, turning the the role call to role play. Because what we know is that they don't care what our titles are, but they exactly want what you just said is who's going to take care of this part. Because I think from the onset of all of this, most of our clients have a million other things going on.
00:17:42
Speaker
And this video project is just one of the things that they have to do. So when they see a team that is taking care of every one of their concerns, well, now we've just, they know that we're going to take that, those nerves off their plate and they can focus on what matters to them most. And so I think that's a brilliant way to go about it because it's, I think 99% of our job is just making them feel secure, making them feel less nervous, you know, because they they don't know video production and we do.
00:18:06
Speaker
So I love that approach because number one, it um't it humanizes your brand. But then again, you're just quelling those nerves for all the little things they're worried about. Yeah, you make them trust you. They already see that they can relax. they've you You've done the anticipation part of it. you've They're one step out, you're three steps out, all of those types of things. And we got to keep in mind, and we should remind ourselves often, that when it comes to video work, it's kind of a big deal in the company and in the
Importance of Video Projects
00:18:32
Speaker
brands. like It's high visibility. A lot of the executive teams are looking at it, aware of it. So the producer, whoever's running the show to make these things happen,
00:18:41
Speaker
have a fair amount of pressure that they're feeling. And you want to be making sure that they're going to look good as well and giving them that reassurance. So I just think that's a very simple, practical ah way. It's almost like it it borrows from improv comedy a little bit, where you take everything and you just, we're not we're never stalling. We're running, we're continuing moving forward, we're advancing all of the time. So that's the vibe i like from that.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yep, definitely. and it's And it's not too pitchy either. it's It's not like a... i mean, it is a sales approach, but it doesn't feel like a sales approach. Well, it's honest. It's it's work approach. Exactly. There you go.
00:19:14
Speaker
Okay. Well, there you go. All right. What I would say next, I'm actually going to the last one my list, but ah one thing that's been so important to me is to learn from the past. And so that's not just learning from your own past, but finding ways to uncover the past for the client you're with.
00:19:29
Speaker
So asking them whether whether it's a new client or an old, learning what hasn't worked in the past and what has worked, what have they liked and what haven't they. And again, this this kind of goes ah along with your point is uncovering those hidden stressors.
00:19:41
Speaker
So if we understand that our client has worked with a variety of different production companies in the past and they haven't had great experiences, they've been burned in the past, well, we need to find ways to understand that and what was that burning point.
00:19:54
Speaker
So if I can find out what their least favorite part of this process has been for them in the past, that is the number one thing that I'm going to take care of. If I find the things that they've loved about teams they've worked in the past, well, then we're going to emulate that and we're going to elevate it even higher.
00:20:07
Speaker
But what that does is it gives you that launch point where you can say, here is where our client's expectations on video production in general have been in the past. And here's how we're going to mitigate the fears. Here's how we're going to elevate the things they enjoyed.
00:20:20
Speaker
And here's how we're going to make ourselves become that forever partner with them rather than just the next video production company that's going to be replaced. So to me, that's something I talk with my team all the time is when you're on these initial calls, dig deeper and find out what you can learn from their past that we can kind of put into our plan moving forward.
Learning from Past Client Projects
00:20:38
Speaker
Do these clients, when you get into that, do they feel like you're getting into a business that is none of your business or do you they feel like you're prying in a way that's not appropriate? Yeah. So I think early on, it was kind of a dance to figure out the right approach that doesn't lead to that prying and keeping things very general, I think is is the way to go. When you kind of offer up and and explain to them that, look, I understand that video production is not cheap and that there's a lot riding on this. So I just want to know what kind of experiences have you had in the past that you either loved or hated? Now you're not really prying.
00:21:10
Speaker
You're trying to learn how to best serve them. And I think it's it's just that tweak in language that you use to say, I'm not trying to get you to tell me what other production companies failed. I'm trying to learn how I can best succeed for you and and make you look good in front of your team.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, i but you know, one way that comes to mind for me that I've kind of played with and seen others work with is um to say, what's worked best and not so well for you? You know, so you're you're not just saying what, you know, one direction, but you're giving them a little bit of a spectrum to think in.
00:21:37
Speaker
And they usually will reveal stuff when they feel like they have the option and not cornered into a hard question like that. But if you could say, so when you've done these kind of campaigns before, what's worked best and what hasn't worked best, just curious here.
00:21:48
Speaker
And doing it pretty quickly into the conversation, show that you're listening. Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's just that little that little switch in words can make all the difference. When you don't say what was the absolute worst experience you had, you say what wasn't maybe the best experience that you've had in the past. There's a big change there.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah. I borrow some of this stuff from parenting, right? Like when I want my you know your toddlers to wear a shirt, you don't say, would you want to wear the red shirt or the blue shirt? you're You're wearing a shirt.
00:22:15
Speaker
I'm just, it's a decoy about the red or the blue. You're wearing a shirt. Yeah. Take the no shirt option right off the table out of the gates. Have you ever had your um treatment or approach to a client influenced by this? So you like, hey, we normally you would take this approach, but it didn't work for them last time. we should not do that. Have you ever had that happen?
00:22:34
Speaker
I think the most important thing we typically find out in this is how hands-on or hands-off they want us to be. Do they want us to take this and run with it? Or do they want to be in control and you know handle the process themselves and we do execute? And so so I wouldn't say that there's any big picture things where I'd say they've tried this in the past and it didn't work, but it's those the little minutia. they We need to build trust with them before they let us take a project and just run with it. So we're going to work in tandem with them a little more.
00:23:00
Speaker
And then of course, as you kind of develop that trust over time, now they're they're like, you know what to do. You just take this over. So it's usually those little things that I glean the most from those. And those little things take you really far.
00:23:12
Speaker
I like it. Ready to move on? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So this is one, you've already kind of brought it up, but I'm going to just add a little bit more to it. And that is think of the client as the person, not just the brand. I mean, I think that I do a lot of biz dev with production companies. And so it's, you'll see them, with their pipelines and all this kind of stuff. It's brand, brand, brand. I'm like, yep. but that is Who's the person, you know? And yeah So dive into it. There's a couple things that I think that work from this approach. And that is, first and foremost, we work in advertising. And it's, I mean, it's not a glamorous business. I mean, it's glamorous in that there's money and celebrity, but we're just selling products, right? Like, it's kind of like necessarily care oftentimes about these brands and things like that. You know, they're just big conglomerates. They're all about money.
00:23:54
Speaker
But I deeply care about the people. I deeply care about the people that work there. and And I switch my mindset about trying to make a client, a person really have success in their career and what they're trying to make and all that kind of stuff.
00:24:05
Speaker
It changes my entire mindset about my investment in their success. I'm no longer trying to sell candy bars. I'm actually helping Sarah, whatever, you know, like I'm And you're kind of building something together. And so just that switch is good for the investment into a job.
00:24:19
Speaker
You give it soul with the thinking about the humanity of the client.
Focusing on Client Success
00:24:22
Speaker
And then the other part of it is to really think about how you can make them look good in their careers and what they're trying to do, not just for the person, but for like understanding what has worked before. So like, they're like, oh, I don't know. I'm just, we're just making videos. I got a budget. I got to fill it up. And um and so we're just going to make, I don't even know if it's going to get seen.
00:24:41
Speaker
and they're like, okay, well, what's going on here? Like, why why, are your videos sitting on the shelf? What's going on here? And then you start uncovering that, well, if something's being done wrong. And then you're like, you know, we've and I've seen this before. what we could do is this. And I bet you they perform. I bet you know, if we can get a production strategy to get in here, you said your budget's this, but we can make it work. And now they're thinking that this is really something that's going to be different than the other stuff that they've made. So thinking of a client as a person, not just a brand.
00:25:06
Speaker
This is one of the the things I love the most. So our our team has had many meetings about this kind of a reminder empathy meeting to to get inside the head of a client and understand who they are. Because what we have found is that most clients are are one of three different types of people.
00:25:21
Speaker
There's either the type A who's just great at getting things done and and is the mover and the shaker. There's another who who doesn't really want to be involved and just wants to trust somebody to take things over. And then there's the other who's like,
00:25:33
Speaker
we're going to figure out how to do this together because I want to get promoted. I want to be recognized. I want to be whatever. So the goals are just different when you're working with people. And so when you like when you think of it this way, i have one client who has become a dear friend now, but from the very start, let me know his goal is to become a rock star.
00:25:50
Speaker
He wants people to look to him and just think this guy knows how to get these video projects done. And him being upfront with me on that one is like, well, we don't just need to nail the video, but this entire experience needs to be awesome because his management team is going to be there at the shoot. So how do we make him look so great? Because the truth is, if he moves up the chain, he's going to take us right along with him. If he goes to a new company and we helped him at this one, or we helped him land this new job, well, he's going to bring us right along with him. so So it's remembering that, that like, again, that final product could be great, but you might not be achieving the goals of that person that you're working with. And so that's been a great exercise for us is to be like, what kind of client is this and what are his goals really?
00:26:28
Speaker
And eventually you build a trust enough to where you can just ask them, what what are you hoping for personally out of this? And if they tell you, well, now you've, now you've got something set in your sights. ah That is 100% spot on. You know, we're talking about, you know, call intake stuff coming in. But that is also a good approach to take when you're doing outbound marketing and sales, like when you're trying to target other people.
00:26:48
Speaker
I think too often brands target like the CMO or the EP or whatever, the really top you know shelf people and their titles, when you actually those people are getting solicited all the time, but you don't have an established relationship, really hard to break through. But if you start with a junior, you start with someone who just got hired at a brand, they'll respond to you, you can shape their, and and yeah educate them, and train them up, and empower them, and grow fairly rapidly with them. You know, you it could be you trying to sell into a CMO, or you can arm this person with incredible strategy and intelligence and how to make things really work, carrying that for you to the CMO and advocating. And that's, I think, too often overlooked. Everyone goes to the top. And I think it's a bit maybe a better approach to even start at at the more junior level.
00:27:32
Speaker
What you had said before, it's it's about becoming a partner, not just a vendor. I think you don't become partners with a brand. You become a partner with people for that very reason. So we can get you there together. Let me lend my expertise. You bring in your connection and expertise and let's send you to the top. So so again, it always does go back to thinking of the client as a person because they're the ones that become your ultimate partner.
00:27:54
Speaker
Well, we keep we have a love fest going on here and agreeing. Maybe we'll find something here we disagree on challenge. Yeah, let's let's see how controversial I can be on the next one. You're up. Well, I was just kind of lending to it earlier, but when you start this intake call, we we explained from the top that this is the very beginning of understanding the experience of working with your company.
00:28:13
Speaker
And so I think a huge part of that intake call and going beyond the brief is designing the experience, not just the final product. And I would say that is probably the entire lifeline of what our company does is the experience is the product.
00:28:28
Speaker
You can go to so many different production companies and probably end up with a pretty great video.
Crafting Memorable Client Experiences
00:28:33
Speaker
I mean, there's a lot of talented ones out there. If we're going to set ourselves apart truly, the entire experience along the way needs to match it.
00:28:40
Speaker
And i can't remember who said it. Somebody said that the two most important moments in an interaction are the initial moment when something's being created and the moment when they feel that they've been taken care of from front to end.
00:28:51
Speaker
And so I think that's what we're always looking for is you could end up with a really great product at the end, but if the experience getting there was stressful, it was unenjoyable, there were arguments, it doesn't really matter. That final product no longer matters because the emotion they take with it is how the experience made them feel.
00:29:08
Speaker
So to me, always thinking of designing that experience and having hospitality and service being at the forefront of what you're putting together, I think is going to take you so much farther than simply saying, we make great video.
00:29:20
Speaker
It's like, no, we craft experiences. And in the end, you get a really great piece of content out of it. You really lean into this too. I mean, this is part of your pitch and you, you present that you're going to have a great product and it's going to work, but there's going to be more to it than that. You really talk about that in all your materials and how you present the company. Right.
00:29:37
Speaker
I talk to it to the point where my entire team rolls their eyes every time I bring it up because they're so tired of hearing it. But man, I hammer that point home. um Unreasonable Hospitality it was a book that came out a few years back that's just fantastic.
00:29:52
Speaker
Every single person in this company has a copy of that. And I've made them read it more than once when we need a little reminder that this is service-oriented business. We're all in service. So you know it's it's not just handing off a product and saying, see you later. It's like, we need to make friends out of people.
00:30:07
Speaker
Because number one, it makes our life that much more enjoyable. Now with so many of my clients, I feel like I'm working with friends. We can be frank with one another. We can be open and honest and we can laugh. And that's what they end up taking away from this because they feel like you know how to do the video, but let's make it fun along the way. So I i don't just keep it in the pitch materials. i i probably talk about it every single day of my life here, much to the annoyance of everybody that works in this building with me.
00:30:32
Speaker
So give me an example of how you approach this idea in the intake when you're first meet and how you talk about it and then the some of the practical ways that you actually do it.
00:30:43
Speaker
Yeah. So in the intake call, i think I think the most important part to explain it is is to just say, to make sure that they know that we're there for them every step of the way. So I think it's always walking them through our approach.
00:30:54
Speaker
If you're coming to our studio to shoot, this is what that experience is going to be like. And we kind of detail what the day looks like. If I've had the opportunity to reveal for them to reveal to me what some of their stressors are, I approach that right away in that intake call and I explain how we're going to take care of that. So... For instance, we we recently had a new job come into our studio and you know we knew that one of the things they were really concerned about was making sure there weren't too many people, it wasn't crowded, and it wasn't intimidating for the person who is going to be on camera.
00:31:23
Speaker
Again, a reminder, we always share with the team is oftentimes with what we do, we're not putting actors on camera. We're putting everyday people on camera and this is really intimidating. And so I think that's where I really lean into it with them in that intake call is that I acknowledge that.
00:31:37
Speaker
I know this patient that is about to tell this story has never been in front of a camera before. And now you're bringing them to my studio where they're going to have all these lights. They're going to have cameras in a room full of strangers staring at them. Here's how we solve that problem.
00:31:49
Speaker
We're going to spend the first hour just getting to know him. He can get to know my DP, Josh. you know What he does is not special. He's a director of photography, but you know who Josh is? He's a father of two, just like the person we're going to talk about. And he has a great self-deprecating sense of humor. And we just were there to make him feel warm and comfortable.
00:32:05
Speaker
you know And so I think that's always one of those key points is we let them know we understand how intimidating this can be, and we let them know that we don't take ourselves very seriously so that we can put our focus on that hospitality side of when your patient comes here into our studio to tell a story, they're going to feel like they're at home with friends.
00:32:22
Speaker
And so it's not always about white glove treatment. It's about understanding you know what everybody's going through and explaining to them how we're going to mitigate any of those problems. it's It's really the most important thing. Because if you if you just think about it, James, if you if you had to bare your soul for the first time ever, and you're doing it on camera in a room full of strangers, doesn't feel like a great place to really you know open up your story to them and be vulnerable.
00:32:46
Speaker
But what our clients do love about us is that when they do come, somehow we get them to bare their soul. And in the end, it was therapeutic for them. And so that's that's like a really, I think the most important thing that we do is understanding, yeah, we have a job
Prioritizing Client Care in Production
00:33:00
Speaker
to do.
00:33:00
Speaker
And that job starts with taking care of this person we're putting on camera. What about the folks that are off camera? Is there anything that you're doing with them to make sure that they're onboarded in this way that they trust you and feel they're in good hands?
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think usually what it takes is that first experience for them to really feel completely trustworthy of the process. But I will also say, if I can be transparent, having the Oprah ah the the oprah name on my resume usually kind of helps quell any of those fears. Yeah. I think for them, I guess it goes back to the same thing. It's like explaining that ah you know we know what their nerves are about having this person on camera and you representing your company.
00:33:40
Speaker
So here's how we have found in the past it has worked best to make sure that this whole experience is great. So I think it's always addressing it that way with them is like what we've experienced in the past has been this. And so that's the approach we would like to take and just kind of feeding it in through them.
00:33:55
Speaker
You know, it gives you an opportunity as well to kind of level set with them of this isn't just our crew following this. This has to be all of us as a team working together because it takes everybody to build this cool environment and this cool experience, but it really only takes one person to have it crash down.
00:34:09
Speaker
So, you know, that's not a very specific answer to your question, but I think really it just comes through that conversation of understanding why that approach is so important to us. There's ah a person I've met recently, Jillian Gibbs. She wrote a book called The Marketer's Guide to Creative Production. And it's actually for marketers, for the brand side to hire you know video production companies. Essentially, content is the broad term, but it's what we do. And it is a just a nuts. Like, what is Video Village? Like, it's the basics, like all of those things. And her point is, and she's worked in proctoring. Grant Gamble. like She's a major kind of product holding companies and all this stuff and been involved with it for decades and done all this work. And her point is, you would be surprised how many people don't know any of this stuff.
00:34:49
Speaker
And the more that you educate them, it may be second nature to you, but it's novel to them. And the more you treat it novel, the more trust that you can build is kind of the way that it's her point of And then she she literally wrote the book on it.
00:35:02
Speaker
Even when you said Video Village, that sparked it for me. I'm like, oh yeah, most of the people we work with have never heard the term Video Village before. so And again, that gives you that opportunity to go back to to the why.
00:35:13
Speaker
Here's why we have a ah place called Video Village and here's the here's what it helps with the production. So you're absolutely right. is like It's baby steps. See how much they know and and fill in those questions in a way that doesn't make them feel stupid.
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's like when you're doing pre-pro, right? A couple of days before you're getting, you know like, here we go. And who's who, and who's doing what? And you go over the storyboard. You're doing that in the very first intake call at some level. It's like a light version of that, you know, yes with the team and how it's going to approach and how we're going to do the job and just making them feel like, okay, we're in good hands. Right.
00:35:41
Speaker
Well, you were talking before about like a ah junior level client who's coming to you. Oftentimes what I notice is that people are very reluctant to admit that they don't know much about this process. So being able to just kind of approach it yourself and say, I don't know how much you've done this in the past, but here's how we usually do it. And then explain it to them.
00:35:58
Speaker
Now it takes the heat off of them and they don't have to admit that they're completely blind to the process. Exactly. And that will serve you well because they will remember where they were saved. and Yes. yeah Okay. Where were we? Was that mine? That was that was yours, right? That was mine. Yes. That was mine. Yeah. I had to look back at the list. I couldn't remember.
00:36:18
Speaker
Okay, so I'm going to throw out another one here. This is one of my favorite ones, and it's a trick question. But when you're asking about, you know, the the campaign that they want to do, you're they're asking about their clients, you're asking about the budget, maybe you're getting their budgets not quite set yet, or things aren't just adding up.
Guiding Creative Strategies with Media Insight
00:36:35
Speaker
The question that I like a lot is, um ask them about their media buy. What is their media buy? It usually shows that you're diving deep into it. And if they don't know the media buy, that is an opportunity for you to go and to go, Well, we've done this a lot of times.
00:36:49
Speaker
Here's how this usually works with a media by what we've seen work, what we've seen not work, the approaches. And in the context of today's media landscape, it's so fragmented.
00:36:59
Speaker
There is quite a bit of research being done now that is showing that repurposing content for just different screens in different places does not perform. It does not perform, not even close to as well as building purpose content for each kind of platform and screen that it's going to be at.
00:37:16
Speaker
And kind of like walking them through that and builds trust when you say what's your media buy and they don't know, or if they do know their media buy, you know, i we're gonna spend a million bucks, and you're kind of negotiating budget, you should be able to justify how much you're going to charge for that.
00:37:30
Speaker
And you know, if it's too, there's too low, you can kind of explain to them that, you know, it's, you're going to probably have poor performing, underperforming creative, because you're not spending enough, no matter how much money you put into it, media buy.
00:37:41
Speaker
And if you're spending too much of production, you can, you know, be generous and say, yeah, it'll be gorgeous, we'll make great things, but nobody's going to see it. Just so you know, like you have to spend some money. So like when you're getting into that media by conversation and you start having these kinds of detailed back and forth conversations, it really gets them to open up and you can just discover so much more.
00:38:02
Speaker
It's really smart. And that that is something that I have not thought of before because it's it really is such like a good a good way to get a little insight. Because how often do you have a client be like, oh, we don't really know what budget is. Why don't you just send us an estimate? And now you're playing that guessing game.
00:38:16
Speaker
So number one, it reveals that. But like you said, it's that opportunity to say, if you're if you're spending a million bucks on your media buy, but you're going to cut corners on the quality, do you really want a million dollars worth of people to see what you're putting out? Or do you really want to blow it out and make it worth the buck? So I love that approach and I had not thought about that before. so I'm going to go ahead and steal that.
00:38:35
Speaker
Yes. No, that's the idea. Yeah, it's it is a really good one. And now on the other note about budget, if if a client's being cagey, this little side one here, you can say, you know, what's your budget on this? I don't know. We'd like you to figure it out. And like, okay, so if I say $250,000, am I close?
00:38:53
Speaker
Right. Yes. and then Then they will go, whoa, that's a little bit, yeah that's a little bit. I'm like, 200? Is that closer? Well, there's still, up okay, 150. Are we there? Well, if we did if it could do X, Y, and Z, we could probably, okay.
00:39:04
Speaker
So if I did a proposal and there was $150,000 option, that would, you know, you're just kind of bringing them in and what they wouldn't share with you in the beginning. Now you've gotten all the information. this goes back into like, you should always be, you all the answers should be available to you through this intake and going beyond the brief.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, that's a great way to test the temperature of where that budget lands, because when they do get a little cagey about that budget and you don't ask those follow-up questions, Now you find yourself putting together, let's say a three-tiered quote that says, well, we could go smaller for this and we could go medium size or we could go big. And now you're kind of you're not leaning into your own vision for this and you're not putting yourself into it.
00:39:43
Speaker
You're clearly now just trying to land the job. And in the end, it's probably going to hurt your budget. So if you do dip your toes into that and they do kind of react to one of them, now you can say, oh, well, with that, we can create something really special and we can do this, we can do that. And now you can, one, get them excited that the budget's gonna be okay. And two, now you've got that marker to work backwards from to be like, what can we do with this number?
00:40:05
Speaker
And also understanding the media buy should, and I kind of alluded to it with the fragmented kind of, you know, reality of the media landscape today, but also different kind of media performs differently. If there's a social campaign, if it's a pre-roll campaign, if it's broadcast campaign, whatever it might be.
00:40:21
Speaker
internal, um is you know whatever, you know case study. Knowing the where this is going to be placed should dictate the creative you put into it. It's different.
00:40:32
Speaker
And you really do need a different call to action, a different and creative approach. I mean, something as technical as you know which way social companion content is filmed Versus not, you know, like that's a very kind of nuts and bolts technical part, but it's from that to all the way to like, how do you deliver a comedy punchline in yeah five seconds versus 15 seconds and where you're going to place that determines where we set this off. Where's the setup? Where's the delivery? All of that kind of thing.
00:40:59
Speaker
Absolutely. And you had nailed it on the head before. I think there is it's an epidemic of just repurposing, resizing, and kind of you know casting that wide net. And like you said, the research shows that it's just not hitting home anymore.
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah, the best research I've seen on that has come out of Kantar, the kind of the the measurement company for media buying and commercials and stuff like that. And they have a lot of compelling stuff. You can go on Kantar and look it up and it's it's really compelling. Yeah. Okay, so how about we do one more each?
00:41:26
Speaker
Okay, well not now you're going to make me choose between the the remaining. Pressure's on. I think for me, again, and hopefully it's not redundant, but to me, it's when we put in an intake call a focus on their audience, I think it triggers many
Tailoring Storytelling to Audience Needs
00:41:40
Speaker
things. So so understanding from them that it's not just about the product, but who is the audience?
00:41:45
Speaker
What are they typically curious about, afraid of, questioning, and really just realizing that it's not only about who's speaking, but who they're speaking to. And so I think I always have that conversation in every intake call is...
00:41:58
Speaker
One, I need to understand who the person is on camera, but equally as important is who are they speaking to? Are these other patients living similar lives? Or is this an awareness campaign trying to reach the masses? Or am I talking to ah ah a physician for a healthcare provider audience?
00:42:13
Speaker
Understanding that completely changes the way you tell the story. So it completely changes your approach. it can It can even change the visuals because some people react to visuals differently than others. So I think that is one of those must ask questions for me every time is, who are you speaking to? And and what do I need to know about them?
00:42:30
Speaker
Because in the end, that's what you're curating this content for is for the ears of the audience. And I think what I noticed a lot, especially with myself early on, I focus so much on how creative I can get for the sake of creativity.
00:42:41
Speaker
But when I started really growing up, I realized that you've got to have your, you set your sights a little bit further than that and think about who is the person, the one person that's going to watch this video that is going to have to take that call to action because what I made was so profound.
00:42:56
Speaker
And so I think that's a question, it's a non-negotiable question. I need to understand who's going to be watching this if I'm going to be able to create something to the best of my abilities. And oftentimes an RFP or an intake will have some kind of, um you know, profile or persona kind of there and things like that. But I have actually, and this has been confirmed, I have quite a few podcast conversations with clients and we go like, okay, so what can a production company do and all that kind of stuff. And I've asked the question more than once.
00:43:22
Speaker
about is it okay for someone to challenge what you know, challenge your audience and challenge what resonates with them? and Or is that just, you know, don't mess with that, that you know best your audience. And they went and it's been every single time I've asked the question, no, 100%. We're...
00:43:39
Speaker
We believe something, but we're kind of going fast and we we don't always have the answers. And we're looking for someone to guide us on that, to challenge us and explain why they're challenging. That has been reinforced that it's okay to do that. You're not prying. You're actually mature people trying to make it work for the best possible amount of, but you know, what, you know, make it work for both teams and deliver to bring in clients and customers. Right.
00:44:02
Speaker
Well, what a great way to to show them just how invested you are and how much you care about this project than to go that level and challenge it and say, what what we have found in the past is that this group of people actually reacts well to this or is actually you know in a position where this kind of call to action could be totally different. And again, I bring it back to you know our niche in this health wellness space, this pharma space. For us, it goes even beyond that when I know We do a lot of work in rare diseases.
00:44:30
Speaker
And so now rare diseases, yeah there's over 7,000 of them in the world. Most of them have no treatment, no cure. And we have talked to so many different people living with these kinds of diseases that we know generally is speaking, how they feel, what they're afraid of,
00:44:44
Speaker
their lack of trust in the healthcare community. We know all these little things. And so when we find out we're working on a new project and it's it's either rare or we're trying to raise awareness, now we can put ourselves in the shoes of all those people we've met before and we can say, this is how these audiences have reacted in the past. Or I talked to so-and-so and they told me the number one thing that they are that they're afraid of is trusting their own doctor.
00:45:07
Speaker
So how can we work that into what this conversation is and really hit this audience where it matters most? So I think it's taken those experiences as well, challenging what they know about their audience, like you said, and showing that you actually do have a voice in this because of past experiences or research that you've done.
00:45:23
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's one of the advantages of working within a niche and having a real area of expertise is that you've just exercised it so much and you've seen you know you've seen familiar things and you can know exactly where the opportunities or the pitfalls might be right in front of them and and they don't.
00:45:38
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, the niche, again, it gives you another masterclass. You end up studying this stuff every day for a living, and you become an expert, an unofficial expert. Yeah. And like we were talking about where we take production for granted, we know all of it and we know everything's going, but we forget that they don't, we have to educate them. Sometimes they do the same thing with audience and target like customer. They know it in and out and they might think that they've described it well enough for you to be able to make something for them, but maybe you don't have enough and maybe you need more. So for instance, there's like, here's our, here's our ICP or here's our persona of our, the person we're going after. Finding out like, is this a core person that's already believes and knows and buys? Or is this a person that you're trying to go to the next layer who doesn't know that yet? And maybe they didn't think to explain that in the RFP because they just know it. But now you're asking, you know, you don't. And so making sure that you really, really understand that is important, I think brings a lot of um equity to the relationship.
00:46:33
Speaker
if they don't know what Video Village is I think it's okay for you to not know exactly who their core audience is. so Right, exactly, exactly. All right, well, my last one is more of a process, and this is something that I prescribe.
Refining Project Direction Collaboratively
00:46:46
Speaker
But when you are doing an intake, you are going to try to lead this client, and you're going to try to do it a way that leaves nothing to guess, right? You're gonna get all the answers. And so you do this really important you know ah question asking time, you've gotten the brief, you've read the brief, you're prepared for the brief, you got everybody on, but you're asking the questions, you get in verify, you're challenging all of that stuff. Before you get off that call,
00:47:08
Speaker
You need to get a reaction meeting set up right away. The next day, two days later at the max. And you need to say, okay, so what we're going to is going to take all this information. I'm going to circle back with our team. We're going to think about what we've heard and everything that we know. We're going to think about what we how we would approach that. And we'll come up with some ideas. and We want to get a reaction from you and you can guide us in.
00:47:27
Speaker
and And you get that on the books right there before you get off the call. If they won't make that call, if they won't like allow the time for that reaction meeting, you're probably not really in consideration.
00:47:38
Speaker
There's something else going on because any client that is really trying to get good work would go through this process because this is how you do it. You're one of the triple bids. It's not worth your time. If you can't get them to come along with you so that you can put together a really informed treatment with no guessing and it's really good, it's not worth your time to go. And I think it's really important when you do these intake calls to not only try to bring a client in and win it, but to also vet them out for the ones you shouldn't be wasting your time on. and push them away even if the money looks really good there's probably someone else already there you know like there's you you can ask those questions too but i just think trying to get that meeting booked so if you do get the meeting booked and which is hopefully what happens you circle back with your team and you come up with three options okay they told us they could do you know they have a hundred thousand dollars here's what they want here's what we can do for a hundred thousand dollars you're obligated to give them a hundred thousand dollar proposal you have to this is what we can do Here's what we could do for 200.
00:48:29
Speaker
It gets more. We heard you say this. So therefore we're doing that. And then the third one, we couldn't help ourselves. We have seen this before. We know big we know this way of your budget, but just want to show you what our heads are and what this could look like if you mix photography and vote photo together. If you, um you know, we're doing three locations. So let's get this or this and that, whatever it might be that really amplifies the campaign.
00:48:50
Speaker
And then you present that back to them at this follow-up call. And you say, so we just want to walk you through the what we're thinking here. You've only invested maybe an hour and a half, you know, two hours at the most into this. You've no presentations, decks, one page. You don't send in advance. You walk them through it on the call and you get them to react.
00:49:07
Speaker
And they say, oh God, yes, that would be amazing. No, this don't, no, no, no, don't do that. You're and you're guiding them through and through these three options and talking about it. they've landed on an idea. Now you've got them in on your idea, right? You're like okay, this is super good. So if we, we're going to go this direction with our treatment and bring us back to you on Thursday is this seems like, you know, you're just, they're in. And by the time they've seen it, they it's already familiar. They already know it. They seen how you've really listened to them and really come up with prescriptive solutions for it that address specifically all of the things that you've talked about. They could sell it through you know to the the decision makers and all that kind of stuff.
00:49:43
Speaker
And you probably have separated yourself from the competition to a great degree. And you'll it's a good vetting process, the whole bit. that So that's that's something that I think goes beyond the brief. I think that that is, well, that's something I would have liked to have heard even a couple months ago. that Because I'll tell you, that's not something that I do that I that i absolutely should is get that meeting on the books because you're right, it's so telling.
00:50:04
Speaker
And how often you are a part of a triple bid and then you are just wondering, like how much are we being considered or are we just one of the triple because they had to? yeah And then you're putting this this creative deck, your treatment, your proposals together, and you're sending it off and you're thinking,
00:50:19
Speaker
I hope that I answered all those questions. I think I answered all the right ones, but getting that meeting on the books is really smart because not only that, it it sounds like a no risk proposition where you're going to present these ideas and you just react to them. You can tell me no, and now I won't waste my time on it. Plus, like you said, you may have said a hundred thousand is the budget, but we all know that money can shift around if the idea is good enough. So it's that other opportunity to to to get a bigger project out of it. So I really love that one.
00:50:44
Speaker
Yeah. so many times when you do that, the client ends up buying the middle option. I mean, that usually is where it goes. They want a little bit more than what they initially thought because you've shown how compelling of a reason that is to do it. And they find the money, the big ideas maybe down the road or something like that, but you really brought them in and you're just, you're developing together.
00:51:04
Speaker
Like mature transactions, trying to make, you know, like there's no big reveal. There's no guessing game. That old model, all of that stuff is just out the window as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. and that's that's also the importance of that high bid, right? Because it it makes it makes that middle bid look that much better.
00:51:20
Speaker
So if you go real low, real high, and now here's the real one, that's kind of the game. Yeah. That happens to us everywhere we go all of our lives. Yes, does. Well, I'm going to give you the final word. Is there anything that you think that we haven't covered that you think production companies need to know in going beyond the brief?
00:51:36
Speaker
I think the main thing, you even as we talk about it, it it hammers it home for me all the more is, i guess, the bravery to ask the tough questions or to dig a little bit deeper. So I think the number one thing is to never be afraid that a client is going to be annoyed by you pressing for more information and just realize if it's going to help you do a better job in the end, that's what's most important to them as well.
00:51:58
Speaker
well We only got like through like half of the things. I know we did. But that's ah that's a sign of success as far as I'm concerned. So this this has been great and I appreciate that very much. Well, Jason Ballou, thank you very much for coming on the show. And um I appreciate you sharing all this wisdom and being so candid.
00:52:14
Speaker
Absolutely. I appreciate it, James. All right.
00:52:19
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S e b l a s dot com