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Elevating Account Management with Rob Meyers
113 Plays1 month ago
Hear Rob Meyers from Versus, a NYC-based creative production studio that has built a stellar reputation for its culture-defining work and client-centric solutions since 2013. Rob shares actionable insights on effective account management, breaking down how Versus cultivates long-term relationships with major clients. He offers strategies for building trust, retaining clients, and successfully pitching ideas. The conversation dives into lessons from both successes and failures, with insightful tips that can elevate your client relationships and grow accounts. A must-listen for anyone looking to take their client management to the next level.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kebles.
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome, listeners, and thank you for tuning in to the show. Today, we are tackling a part of the business that a lot of production companies tend to overlook, and that's account management.
Account Management in Production Companies
00:00:35
Speaker
Most production houses don't even have a dedicated person for it. It's usually the executive producer or the owner trying to juggle both creative work and client relationships, which, let's face it, doesn't leave a lot of room for strategic thinking. But here's the thing.
00:00:49
Speaker
If more companies made account management a priority, they'd likely see a world of difference in how they retain and grow clients. Account management isn't just about the handling of clients. It's about balancing innovation with relationships, staying ahead of shifting market demands, seeing your clients' needs before they do, and investing in their results. This is often the work being done by ad agencies.
00:01:12
Speaker
But with the growing trend of production companies working directly with brands, it's a topic worth exploring here.
Meet Rob Myers from Versus
00:01:18
Speaker
So for this conversation, we're going to get a clear example of how account management is being done at a company called Versus, a creative production studio in New York City. I'm joined by Rob Myers, the managing director and a partner at Versus.
00:01:31
Speaker
who's built a foundation of trust and long-term relationships with heavy hitters like Disney, Meta, and they even launched a new e-commerce platform called Tunnel that guides brands into sports and fashion. How does Rob do it? How can you apply these same strategies to your own business?
00:01:47
Speaker
Well, we're about to dig into some practical tips on selling through client-centric campaigns, measuring success, and ensuring both sides feel they're getting real value.
Rob's Journey into the Industry
00:01:57
Speaker
Rob has seen a lot and he's trying to help us by understanding how he's learned those hard lessons with us today. So, Rob, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, James. I'm really happy to be here.
00:02:07
Speaker
I have a lot of questions for you, but before we begin, I have to ask, what's the hardest part about doing account management? Is it ah knowing all the client's secrets or pretending that you don't know them?
00:02:19
Speaker
You know, there's there's nothing hard about it so long as you kind of bring things back to the ah basics, which is people in our industry have problems that need solutions. And if we didn't, you know, if they didn't, then we wouldn't have jobs. I think it's important to note that the people that you're working with, the people that you're trying to build relationships with, they're ultimately people that are seeking answers. And so long as you can be that person for them,
00:02:45
Speaker
As long as you can provide that shoulder, I think that's really all you really need to do to formulate that kind of relationship. Well, we're going to dive into the details of what all that means. But before we do, I'm curious about you, Rob. How in the hell did you get into this business? And what's your story and journey here today?
00:03:02
Speaker
You know, I wish I could say that I had a singular path to get me to where I was, and it was a clear story or narrative that I could share with you. But the reality is that I think my life has been filled with a whole bunch of sliding door moments. And where I am right now is just a result of decisions that I made that were born of experiences that I had had prior. At the end of the day, for me, I think where I'm at right now is is pretty much built on just having an incredible role model in my father who provided me with, I think, the work ethic that helped me build versus. Was your father in the business? No. He had several restaurants that were very successful in New York.
00:03:45
Speaker
And you know if there's anything you learn from being in the food industry, it's the value of hard work and the necessity of showing up every day and doing it with a smile on your face. And I think that's app applicable outside of the restaurant industry and especially in our world.
00:04:01
Speaker
that seems to transfer pretty well to account services and kind of that same muscle, right? Of anticipating needs, giving them what they need, all that kind of stuff. is that Am I jumping to conclusions? No, I think that's totally i think that's totally true. I think you know for me, what was really funny when I was thinking about this the other night is that you know my dad would bring me to work as early as when I was like four or five years old. And and you know for the most part, I would just like sort of you know, playing his office and just sort of hang around and be in the space. But, you know, he did get me to a point at like five, six years old where he would task me with handing out menus to people as they walked into the space. And so even at that young age, I had to learn how to interact with people and I had to learn how to respond in the moment. Frankly, I kind of was a shy kid. ah So this was a great way to like get me out of
00:04:52
Speaker
my shell. you know it's It's weird. you learned like To learn small talk at that age is is actually kind of a powerful thing. It makes you like really be able to like relate to adults. So I think that's something that just I just kept building on and building on as I grew.
Founding Versus and Industry Innovation
00:05:08
Speaker
I knew a production company owner who had a hiring policy that he would only hire people that had worked in either retail or restaurants as part of their career because it built a character that he really wanted in his company. ah I love that. I think that's a great role. And I actually think if I looked at my staff, I'm pretty sure that almost 100% of them would have had that experience.
00:05:29
Speaker
Okay. So we figured out some criteria for hiring an account manager now. Exactly. So I'm not going to let you get up that easy though. When did you, what was your first job into advertising or film production then? I started out probably more on a film path.
00:05:45
Speaker
I went into college for screenwriting and sort of adapted as I went along, learning a little bit more about production, getting a little bit more involved. And I was introduced into the industry by a relative who worked ah for Showtime. So I started to learn a little bit more on the job as a PA during summers and, you know, ah little jobs here and there that I would take since i my school was not too far from New York City. So that was my entrance into the industry. I think that originally I probably envisioned more of a behind the camera path for myself, but production seemed very natural to me. And I think that it just not it just was an evolution that occurred and I sort of leaned into as we went along.
00:06:30
Speaker
And then you made the jump with some friends to do versus or what did you see some yeah problem or gap in the business that you thought, Oh, I can fix that versus was definitely created to ways that my partner Justin Barnes and I had interacted within the industry. I think that in the various shops that we had worked with,
00:06:55
Speaker
We came up against very traditional thinking. We came up against inefficient problem solving. We came up with a very deeply rooted culture of this is just the way it's done. And so versus is very much and its name is very much a response to that thinking, which we absolutely do not abide by.
00:07:19
Speaker
I pick that up. it's There's a great kind of rebelliousness in the company. I can see it from the website and the work that you do. And I got to say, one of the things that really struck with me was this kind of whatever, I'm not sure if you call it a motto or a promise or something like that, but this idea of challenge accepted and how you've leaned into challenge accepted. And it's one thing to have a motto. It's one thing to kind of have this brand promise or whatever it is, but you really back it up with explaining what that means in a variety of scenarios. And you're real is,
00:07:52
Speaker
If anyone wants to see a fantastic reel, I highly recommend you go to Versus and check it out because it's not a reel that just shows work. It's a reel that shows why this work and how this work. And it really puts the clients at the center of it. And I think a lot of times production companies miss that. they They make it all about them and that not really showing the why and the how and having that client centric focus on it. Well, thank you for that.
00:08:19
Speaker
So tell me about Versus now. you've You've been going since what, 2013 or something like that? What's the size of the company? You call it a creative production studio. What does that mean for you? Give us a snapshot of what Versus is
Versus' Team and Culture
00:08:31
Speaker
today.
00:08:31
Speaker
Absolutely. We're about 40 people and we're globally located. We have um US-based hubs in New York City and Los Angeles. We also have overseas creative teams that help us specifically in design and animation. The team is very senior level. They're all very, very multifaceted creatives and producers. I think that's really what allowed us to scale in the way that we have as quickly as we have.
00:09:00
Speaker
I don't know. Sometimes I get lost in being around for you know around 10 years. Is that a short amount of time? Is that a long amount of time? like in ah In a way, it's both because it feels like yesterday that we started, but it also feels like you know we're very grateful and feel very fortunate.
00:09:16
Speaker
to have been able to build in what has always been trying times right during this time frame there's been multiple recessions there's been a pandemic and versus has risen to the top throughout which i really have to hand to my team i mean we have we have a team that is so skilled and so able to juggle so many things that you know just it's I'm very proud of the culture that we've been able to create. and I think if we had a team that didn't buy into the idea of challenge accepted, we wouldn't be where we are today. There's no question. so Do you have actual people on your team whose job is exclusively account management?
00:09:57
Speaker
I don't know if I would define it as exclusively account management, but what we do have is a very robust team of business development professionals that all are assigned to different verticals. And each of them with titles that range from new business to executive producer, tackle a specific area of our industry hands on. So we have people that are assigned to oversee our agency work, our direct to brand work.
00:10:22
Speaker
our network and streamer work, and then our long-form original production development. So each one of these people brings their own experience to it. And my my role is to sort of create ah you know an intertwining of everybody together. I oversee this sales and account management team from the managing director role. So i have I have a hand in a little bit of everything there just to make sure that the philosophies that we abide by adverses are adhered to.
00:10:51
Speaker
How would you describe that philosophy when it comes to account management? when it come And for me, when I think of account management, I'm thinking of when you adopt your client's goals, you you might even be putting your client's goals in front of versus goals. Would you have a particular approach or philosophy around that or something that you use to grow clients? You know, it's funny, I would say that account management and improv is very, very similar.
00:11:19
Speaker
I think you have to abide by yes and. if you If you go yes but, you've already started off on the wrong foot as far as problem solving goes. I think that clients innately are looking for a specific answer, but that doesn't mean that that's the right answer. I think if we're able to bring solutions to clients that they don't see, those are the big wins and those are ones that you really grow a relationship off of.
00:11:44
Speaker
And do you then spend time with your team to like set aside time to think about that? Do you think, okay, we have a client, we're trying to have the best interest of the client, have them succeed. Let's think on our end about what we could be doing for them and then bring ideas to them about what they could do versus just waiting for a brief, you know, waiting for them to kind of come. Do you manage that structure on your team that way?
00:12:09
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. I think you know in our industry, because we work in so many different verticals, we absolutely see all forms of what people will term a brief. A brief coming from an agency is very different than a brief coming from a network, which is very different from a conversation with a brand that has a problem, which inevitably means you are writing the brief yourself.
00:12:30
Speaker
And I think what what we do really, really well here, and it's really a credit to my partner, Justin, is that when we're given a question, let's leave it at that, we like to approach it in a lot of different areas. We like to show all of the possibilities, definitely making sure we're we're showing you the one you asked for, but not stopping there.
00:12:52
Speaker
Is this a methodology that has evolved over the years? Is there something new you're doing now that you didn't do before that you've kind of learned in this in this world? I think really where we've evolved over time is we've taken our wins and the confidence that comes from them. And we've leaned into that. And I think as ah as far as being a responsive company production studio, we've gone from just playing defense with our clients to taking a much more offense focused way of approaching them.
00:13:25
Speaker
providing them value, showing them all of the opportunities that lie ahead of them, and trying to lead them to a space that they might not have arrived at naturally by themselves.
Growing Direct-to-Brand Business
00:13:35
Speaker
How much of your business do you, would you say comes from direct to brands, which is really what we're talking about here in this conversation. At least I think versus work that comes from ad agencies. It's growing. It's growing year over year. It has been growing year over year direct to brand over the last five years specifically. I think we're at a point now where we're pretty close to 50 50. Whereas we were probably 80% agency. If you go back to around 2019, 2020, So we're definitely moving into that space pretty aggressively and we're finding not only a lot of success, but having a lot of fun doing it. As you're increasing that body of work, have you gotten in so far that you actually have these subject matter expertise that you're bringing onto the team strategist or something like that, that are really digging into maybe they're hired just specifically for a client or specifically for a vertical so that they can find, say for instance,
00:14:28
Speaker
ah white space and opportunity that maybe a brand hasn't seen, and then you can call them up and say, hey, we just discovered something. You may want to hear about it. Let's get on the let's get on the phone and talk. Do you have teams that are specifically tasked with that kind of work? One of the things about versus that has been sort of a core principle of how we built ourselves is we've actually kept ourselves pretty lean on specialists because so many opportunities arrive that are so specific.
00:14:57
Speaker
what we are with our clients is what we are in the community, which is a relationship, um, fosterers. And so we have an incredibly deep rolodex of specialists that we can turn to for, you know, those kinds of jobs that really come along once a year.
00:15:14
Speaker
So when it comes to how we would approach specific things, whether it's strategy related or execution related, we will typically scale to meet whatever challenges ahead of us using the production, sales, and creative expertise that we have with our core members of our team.
00:15:32
Speaker
but Walk us through an example of maybe when a client came in with one thing and you delivered something more than they saw, or you started with that one thing and then grew the client over years to create this more symbiotic relationship. Do you have any examples you can share with that?
00:15:50
Speaker
One of my favorite stories that I like to tell from like a challenging aspect is specific to a project that we took on during the the heart of COVID, which was something that we did for AT and&T and Major League Soccer. This was back when fans couldn't really engage with the sport. Everything was being played under a bubble. In this case, this was down in Florida when they they launched the season. And so there was this challenge of how do we connect with fans when they can't even get into the stadium to watch the game.
00:16:20
Speaker
And so where we arrived at with our agency, which was Wasserman, was creating these phone-based camera kits that we would send into the space to the players to allow them to film themselves within the confines of this time under the bubble. This became a 24-7 challenge for us. I mean, it was a 24-7 challenge in every way you possibly could.
00:16:43
Speaker
not just from the idea of technical challenges of dealing with this, especially at a time when everybody was basically quarantined from home, but also the fact that we had to direct the players in real time. They they were not filmmakers by any stretch, so we had to prompt performance out of them on a moment-to-moment basis over the course of a few weeks.
00:17:06
Speaker
all the while still keeping our eye on the task that we need to be posting the stuff for the fans every day. So this whole challenge was something that you know I think was very, very daunting. So we had to take a very, very methodical approach.
00:17:21
Speaker
bit by bit to figure out exactly how to get ahead of any challenges that came along. And I'm really excited to say that for as stressful as it was, it came off very seamless. And we were able to daily update fans with what was going on, provide some really in-depth and very private moments that players really kind of rose to the occasion to to share with their fans. And it really does at the end of the day become one of like my favorite case studies for us to, uh, to share with clients. Yeah. And has that work produced more work as a result of how successful it was? Absolutely. Absolutely. and And it's funny, it's, it's, and by nature of the industry, it's produced work in, in the same ways you would expect, which is, Oh, you did that. Can you do that again? And then also just as, as a case study of. thinking on your feet and being, you know, incredibly proactive about how to solve a problem. It's been something that we've been able to leverage for projects that are completely unrelated. And, you know, we're executed in a completely different manner. It just shows sort of the core of the studio's heart. And I think that's enough sometimes for clients to want to buy in.
Collective Account Management Approach
00:18:35
Speaker
Is there a role for the executive producer? like Is it in their job description that they take on some of this client management expectation? I think yes and no. I mean, I don't want to say that the executive producers and and business development professionals here aren't account managers because they are and the very by the very nature of how they interact with our clients. I would just say that we don't necessarily use the title for it. I would also say though that every single person here from top to bottom at the end of the day is a representative of versus. And they act in an account management role, helping us to sort of grow our relationships and get people to buy into working with versus just by doing their jobs. I think every single person, like I said, whether they're producers or creatives have been incredible representatives of versus. And I think that general mentality
00:19:32
Speaker
comes off and and it shows a culture that other other people, clients, and other people in the industry want to be a part of. If for any production company owners that are listening to this, would you recommend that the executive producer have the line share of that responsibility? Would you recommend that they don't have that? any Any thoughts on that? Most production companies aren't going to have account managers, even though they need to be playing that role, especially if they're direct to brand. So what advice would you have on that?
00:20:02
Speaker
I think as we grow, we've always sort of taken an outbound and an inbound philosophy towards account management. I think it's very important at the top for us to be seeking out new relationships, earning the trust to engage. And then once we've delivered on a project, I think it's a shared relationship. I think it's important for executive producers and producers and account managers to all foster the same level of trust.
00:20:31
Speaker
with clients and i think you start to see like i know where i can go to for this person you know for this level of question i know where i can go to for this level of question and so on i think you can't have a weekling to be honest when you build out of being a small company i think you need to be able to sort of share that general sensibility of why you want to work with a company like versus um And I think if if there's no weak link there, that's just going to be exactly why people are returning and you're having more engagement.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, so if I understand you right, then you are saying that there isn't one primary person, but it's a shared zone coverage kind of approach. I like the zone coverage. Yeah, I definitely think there's you know there's a point of there's a point of contact, there's a point of where we have a relationship lead, but after after that happens, I think everybody has the same responsibility to make sure that a project is going as efficiently and as well as possible and that that has to occur on all sides it has to occur between the relationship up top has to occur between the creative teams and I think when you're doing that everything's you know running on all cylinders.
Launching Tunnel and Expanding Reach
00:21:44
Speaker
So I was thinking about all of the accounts that you have you have some great work you've done things with Disney and ah meta and
00:21:54
Speaker
Tons of consumer brands and technology companies. And I was thinking you then have moved into these other areas as well, including this thing called tunnel, which is a e-commerce platform for fashion and sports.
00:22:09
Speaker
And as I was thinking about why you did that, I was projecting that you were doing it because you could possibly play a bridge between what you see brands trying to showcase themselves at perhaps falling short and entering them into this kind of glamorous world of sports and fashion in this confined space of tunnel, which I i don't know. Did I get that right? Was there a different motivation for that?
00:22:36
Speaker
Tunnel is is definitely a great example of how versus doesn't exist in a comfort zone anywhere. One of the things that you know we've had as ah you know a found of founding principle for us is that we've never really cared about the medium.
00:22:55
Speaker
it's always been about the message and so we've existed in in every space you can possibly imagine we have a great board that i look at every day where i'm looking at i'm looking at what's in and it's like i've got a thirty second spot i've got a two-hour documentary i have a series i have a.
00:23:15
Speaker
comic book and I have a novel coming so why not add fashion and e-commerce to it right at that point you just really when you're working here adapt to a fearlessness that you can take anything on tunnel being one of the you know latest examples of that and how is it working out.
00:23:35
Speaker
we We had our launch event at Fashion Week in New York earlier in September. I have to credit my co-founder Ashley Champ who just had the vision for what this could be and willed it into existence. The event was a smashing success. The turnout was astronomical. i mean We had to increase our permits to cater to the turnout as it just erupted in the last 36 to 48 hours. you know Socially speaking, it's been incredible. We're over a billion impressions since since our launch. We've got follow-up projects in the works right now that I'm really, really excited to bring to market.
00:24:19
Speaker
And all the while, again, I'm still going back to this, how did I get here? I don't know, but I put my head down and worked with some brilliant people and we made it happen.
00:24:31
Speaker
Congratulations on that, by the way, and I see that you've brought in Spotify and Zales and all these brands into it. And as I was analyzing this and trying to decode it all, I was thinking, oh man, what a great way to go to potential brands and sell ideas, sell connections, sell audience.
00:24:50
Speaker
in a really fun way and in a way that feels like there's engagement going on. It's kind of next level. It's not just a banner ad or something. And that you actually built that platform for that exchange and for the audiences to see each other. Was it that deliberate?
00:25:07
Speaker
I mean, I might be bridging worlds here by saying this, but I mean, when I say that versus has taken a very ah different strategy and moved from playing defense to playing offense, this is a good example of that. And I think we're looking for for what success we've had with tunnel to build into other areas that are completely unrelated to sports and fashion, but utilizing the exact same playbook.
00:25:33
Speaker
i I really like the the concept of offense and defense. I think that's the right one, particularly in account management. So can you give me some more examples of how you've made that shift with a brand partner or a client where you went from just playing defense and responding to being engaged and being in front of and leading them and leading them somewhere?
Turning Clients into Partners
00:25:55
Speaker
We have a client that is, it's like we have a client that's a friend, that's a partner, and that's how I would love everybody to be, right? I think in in a perfect world, you, you're not looking at these people. We keep using the word clients. Yeah, they are. by nature of the the transfer of you know of money. But at the end of the day, if you're not turning these people into trusted and valued friends, then that then you're failing right then and there. And I think once you've done that, you have advocates for life. No matter where they're at, no matter what role they're at, they're going to remember what you've done for them, who you've been to them, how you've been there for them. And I think that's ultimately where you have these bigger wins where you've transitioned one relationship into another. A great example of that is how we've worked with a client that's Lucidlink. I don't know if you're familiar with Lucidlink, it's an incredible cloud-based solution for companies. It has been growing astronomically over the last two years from company that we started utilizing because we heard whispers of it being a very valuable tool for for editing or animation to somebody that's our clients are now utilizing Lucidlink and we're very proud to say like, hey, we were there at the ground floor. But this was a company that we inquired about as a tool because we thought it seemed like it would fit a solution for our production company. Turned them into a client because we were so curious and asking so many questions about them that we were actually able to get an introduction to their CMO.
00:27:33
Speaker
who we then just sat down and asked, what do you need? you know What is it that will take Lucidlink to the next level? And from there, we sort of built our own brief and created our ah platform that they're leveraging with other companies now called Unbound, which is basically a behind the scenes of a studio from the studio's eyes. We like to laugh about this because at the end of the day, we created this brief and then we answered this brief and in a weird way, we kind of got you know our now client to pay us to talk about ourselves, which has to be like the best win any production company can have is basically for somebody to pay you to make a reel about yourself.
00:28:14
Speaker
That's the story I was looking for. So so that's that's that's you know that's got to be one of the big ones right there. And then that wasn't enough. We didn't stop there. We saw an opportunity to help them in other ways.
00:28:27
Speaker
and so one of the things that you know and This is a little bit of a side side note here, but one of the things that I love that we've built here at Verses is we were brought into this amazing initiative called Assembly, which is a manner of bringing people together, partially post-COVID again, but also because the industry has gotten fragmented and a lot of these associations and conferences have fallen by the wayside. and so We're now a core partner in this twice yearly event that takes place in New York and and l LA that brings together professionals from the entertainment and brand industry. It's an incredible platform for any brand to be in front of. And so we actually saw this opportunity for Lucid and brought them into the fold as a sponsor now for this event. And so now we've we've got three different touch points with the same client that we've been their audience. We've been their vendor.
00:29:24
Speaker
and we've been their client. And I think what better way to talk about how you grow a relationship than to have all three touch points there. Oh, that's a fantastic story. I think that that is a perfect example of how to bring a client up and thinking about their success in addition to yours or maybe even over yours. Have you ever tried to sell through an idea that wasn't well received? I think we've probably had our fair share of selling through ideas that were turned down. I'd say that On the whole, they were turned down respectfully, so nothing nothing that I would cry about. Have you ever tried to sell through an idea to a client with such conviction that you actually would tie your budget and the payment that you'd receive to the success of the campaign?
Embracing Vulnerability in Business
00:30:11
Speaker
Have I put my money where my mouth is? i Yes, I absolutely have. We've bought into projects because of our level of interest in making sure the relationship works, and I think that's always paid off tenfold. I will also say one of one of our best partners, one of the agencies we've done work with the most over time, we actually built that relationship off of a pitch we lost.
00:30:40
Speaker
We actually created something for them that was not what they needed or what the client wanted, but they were so impressed by the level of detail that we brought to that pitch that they immediately found a job for us to work on. And and we've been working with them ever since. What advice do you wish you had when you started that you know now?
00:31:00
Speaker
It's okay to be vulnerable. I think that everything in our industry requires you being comfortable with vulnerability. I think when you're doing creative work, you're putting yourself out there and it's scary. And i I absolutely give credit to every artist we work with who puts their heart and soul into something to be judged for the most minute pixel. I think that same principle is something that producers need to abide by. You can't always be right.
00:31:30
Speaker
Even when you're right, sometimes you have to admit that you're wrong to save face. That's just the way business works. And God, as I became more involved in sales, I mean, your batting average is so low at the end of the day. Like, you have to learn that the wins are bigger than the losses, regardless of the number you're getting of each. Yeah, amen to that.
00:31:51
Speaker
Any other final thoughts you would share with the listeners around account management and best practices or worst practices that we haven't touched on already? who am I to be the expert on this is the first thing that I'll say, but if I was gonna share any you know any sort of advice based on my own experiences, I would just say that it's a hard industry and you know you'll so you'll hear no a lot more than you'll hear yes, but as long as you understand that that's all just part of how this works and the more that you learn how to take a punch and just keep on going, the better off you'll be.
Conclusion and Future Conversations
00:32:29
Speaker
Well, Rob Myers, I really admire versus from the, ah from of course your client work and the stuff that you've produced for clients, but also the originals to the work in social justice that you lead with Black Tag and the the commitment to equity is really edir admirable. the bravery that you display and going into these new platforms and trying these new things. It's really an incredible but business to see, and I'm glad that we've gotten to know each other. And thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom here on the show today. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
00:33:09
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S dot com.