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Should You Hire a Sales Rep?
158 Plays7 months ago
Is it time for your production company to partner with a sales rep? The right sales representative can provide industry insights, valuable relationships, and a network of contacts to secure lucrative opportunities. But making this decision hinges on factors like your company's goals, size, and resources. Join us as we explore this critical topic with Doug Stephen, a leading Midwest rep and seasoned professional with over two decades in commercial film production. Together, we dive into the world of sales representatives and their pivotal role in shaping the success of production companies.
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Transcript
Introduction to Sales in Film Production
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kebles.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning in to the show. Today, we embark on a journey into a realm that, for many production company and agency owners, feels about as daunting as walking through uncharted territory. It's the world of sales. A realm fraught with challenges, but a dense jungle every creative explorer must navigate to bring their business into the light of success.
00:00:46
Speaker
But let's face it, for those whose compasses naturally point towards creativity and artistry, the landscape of sales seems about as inviting as a cold call during the final moments of a sunset.
Role of Sales Reps
00:00:56
Speaker
For many company owners, it's the dirt under the nails of an otherwise rewarding career in the creative industry. It's a path filled with obstacles, rejection, competition, and the relentless quest for leads that many would prefer to bypass.
00:01:11
Speaker
But then comes the unsung hero of the adventure, the sales rep. Imagine this intrepid explorer, not clad in armor, but equipped with a phone, a laptop, and a voracious biz dev appetite venturing into the wilds of sales on your behalf.
00:01:26
Speaker
They are hired scouts diving into the depths of your target market, brandishing their map of leads and contacts, and using their industry expertise to get you in front of the best opportunities. But an experienced guide has their cost, and this invaluable service carries its own price tag. So is the price of the guide justified by the treasures they might uncover on your behalf? To help us navigate this rugged landscape, we're joined by a seasoned explorer of the sales wilderness, Doug Stephen.
00:01:55
Speaker
With more than two decades of experience in commercial film production world, Doug has traversed the valleys of rejection, scaled the cliffs of negotiation, and emerged with the precious bounty of opportunities for his clients. Together, we'll explore the real essence of partnering with a sales rep, the investments, the rewards, and the profound influence it can wield in your company's journey towards success. So lean back, adjust your headphones, and join us as we decode the sales rep enigma.
Doug Stephen's Career Journey
00:02:23
Speaker
Doug Stephen, welcome to the show.
00:02:25
Speaker
Why? Thank you very much. And that was very poetic. I'm impressed. Does the expert scout metaphor work for you? You said the word essence. I just love that word. Good job. So often, these intros are all about the bio of the person. And it's just kind of this boring script. So I try to spice it up a little bit. No, that was entertaining. Nicely done.
00:02:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you're here and talking about this. I got to be quite honest, there's a lot I don't know. I've always wondered about the sales reps. So this is a bit of a learning experience for me too. And I want to dive into all the details on this. But before we begin, it's fun because you and I have met for about a year now. And when we started talking, we realized we had this background in music and all this other world and kind of landed in film. So I think it's a fascinating story. How did you get into this business to begin with?
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. And these origin stories are always fun because most people don't have trajectory of planning in advance to get into advertising much less becoming a rep and you just sort of fall into it. And I sort of fell into it. I mean, I grew up outside of San Francisco and plan on being an archaeologist since I was a kid. And I went to college to get a degree in archaeology. And then after college, I decided that I wanted to
00:03:36
Speaker
move someplace else. So it was either Chicago or New York and I moved to Chicago and played in bands. I played in bands my entire life and so I just moved here to play in bands and fell in the scene right away and it was great and had lots of wonderful successes on a relatively large scale and then realized that there's no way you're going to make money doing this unless, you know, I mean, this is really no way. And so I had to get a day job, a real job.
00:03:58
Speaker
And a friend of mine worked at a company which was called e-creative search. It's now company is now called source creative or something like that. It's merged and all this stuff over the years.
00:04:07
Speaker
And so I got a job in the research department there. And so advertising agency producers would call me or email me and say, who directed the spot last night with a dancing baby? And I'd be like, oh, that was Bruno van. He's I believe media. It's easy for me to understand this aspect of commercials because I did that with music my entire life. Like this record was recorded at this studio. This session guy played played based on that. The album art was done by Blah.
00:04:33
Speaker
you know, just being a music nerd transferred very well into becoming a commercials nerd. Oh, that's interesting. I can see how that works. Yeah, it was an unknown. I did not know until I got into it. I'm like, Oh, this is this is so easy, because I'm going to nerd out about all these directors and all these agencies in the exact same way. Yeah, you're using the same muscles. Totally, totally. And surprisingly, the passion was there, too. I mean, you know, I know that advertising people are trying to sell you on something. But my viewpoint this entire time is like, we're making films, you know, they just happen to be selling something, but it's the exact same process. And it's
00:05:02
Speaker
you're working with immensely creative people who are far more creative than you are, you know, on a daily basis. And so that's how I got into I eventually ended up running that department. And then at some point, there was some, you know, whatever changes that happened. And I decided I was going to look for a different job. And I interviewed with advertising agencies in Chicago to be a producer, because I figured out what this this knowledge that I have, like, you know, I'll just do that. I was even offered a job. And I decided that I didn't want to do it because it just felt like maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right thing
Transition to Sales Representation
00:05:30
Speaker
for me. And this entire time,
00:05:32
Speaker
colleagues of mine have said, you should be a rep, you should be a rep. And I, you know, the word rap has negative connotation. And I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be a rep. That's like a, you know, they're, they're sleazy, and they're salesy, and they're untrustworthy, and all this type of stuff.
00:05:47
Speaker
But enough people told me to do it and I had enough contacts. It was actually capable of doing it. And so I did some informational interviews with established reps in Chicago just to what is it that you do and and how do you go about it. And a few of them really, really impressed me. Very intelligent, thoughtful, strategic people. And so I did it at his job, called a bunch of production companies that I knew and said, I'm going to I'm going to start repping in the Midwest now. And they're like, cool, you can be a rep. And that's how it happened. It was 2007.
00:06:14
Speaker
total market crash. There was a part of me that was worried that I didn't know what I was doing, but it was more that there was just not much going on because of the economy at the time, but I'm glad that I stuck with it. It's been an absolutely wonderful career and I love it.
00:06:30
Speaker
I imagine you're from Chicago where there's territories are a big thing. When you say I'm going to be a rep and go into the Midwest, did you have to negotiate with other reps and all come to agreements and do you all work together? Do you have a secret handshake or something? Well, it's funny that the territories are already well divided. Like for decades, they've been divided between East Coast, Midwest and East Coast. Sometimes there's a Southeast or South, but for the most part, it's either West Coast, East Coast or Midwest.
00:06:57
Speaker
And those territories, the territories meaning the states, are clearly defined way before I got involved. But really, it's mainly cities. I talked to the advertising agencies in Chicago and Detroit and Minneapolis and Kansas City nearly every day. And then there's other ones, like there's Milwaukee and there's Cincinnati and even Madison and other cities besides just the largest ones. But the entire Midwest, I cover the entire Midwest. Tell me, is there a difference between a sales rep and a sales agent?
00:07:26
Speaker
Well, it's an interesting question because, as I mentioned before, rep is a bad word for a lot of people. And there's been a movement over the last 10 years, I would say, maybe, to sort of try to think of a new term besides rep so that it doesn't rub people the wrong way. Agent has come up a lot.
00:07:44
Speaker
Technically, I would say an agent is different from a rep. An agent usually is the person negotiating the deal with whoever we're working with and sort of managing a director or photographer's career in a way that is much more controlling and in the weeds.
00:08:02
Speaker
A rep is someone who knows how to solve the problems that an advertising agency is going through. I don't negotiate anything. I don't have any say in how this commercial is going to be produced. I don't have any input about the rate that we're going to pay a director or anything like that. An agent usually does. However, that said, most people are calling themselves agents now because it just sounds cooler. Right. So how many companies do you represent
Representation Strategies for Companies
00:08:28
Speaker
now?
00:08:28
Speaker
Well, gosh, I think it's maybe 12. I often have to look and see myself like, how many is it now? But I think it's 12. And it's production companies with rosters of directors. It's a music house that makes music for commercials. It's an editorial company that has editors who edit commercials. They're the motion graphics company that does CG typography and all sorts of things like that.
00:08:49
Speaker
I try to develop my roster and curate my roster to be able to have a solution for every aspect of the pie chart when we're looking for talent to help us produce a commercial. That curation is an essential part of a good rep, by the way, but it's also, you want to have a reason to continue to have a conversation. If I only had directors, it would stop there, but I want to
00:09:12
Speaker
continue the conversation with these advertising agencies after we talk about directors. Let's talk about editors. Let's talk about music. Let's talk about the graphics. Let's talk about the finishing, whatever, things like that. I like that well-rounded approach. I want to get into the details of what you do, but before we do that, I want to take a look at it from the other side and think about the production companies and their journey and when they think they should engage a rep like you.
00:09:37
Speaker
you have your perspective, you're trying to kind of round out a portfolio of different kinds of skills and talents and specialties and all of that so that when you're seeking opportunities, you can kind of present the best one to them. But from the production company side, when should a production company think about getting a rep? Should it be from day one or do they have to get a certain amount of legacy work and credibility first? Where's that work?
00:10:01
Speaker
Well, I think it sort of also depends on the reps you're talking to. For me, I prefer a production company is already established to an extent, either by reputation or by the work they've done with other advertising agencies. There have been times when I've talked with production companies that have a really nice roster of directors and very nice work, but they've only ever worked directly with brands and never advertising agencies. And that makes me nervous because it's just a different language. It's a different way of approaching it. It's a different market.
00:10:30
Speaker
And I think that my advertising agencies in the Midwest trust me to present to them established, trustworthy, proven talent. And so when a company, I just had a conversation yesterday with a production company that they've got a documentary director that's done documentaries. They've never done commercials. You're just not ready yet, at least for me, because I was going to ask because they need that time with client driven work.
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that my advertising agencies are looking for trusted, known entities. So if you have never done commercials before, that's a very scary situation to be in, even if their documentary work is a level, beautiful stuff. It's just a different ballgame. And, you know, maybe it's one of those Catch-22 is like, well, then how do I get commercial work if I don't have a rep helping me get commercial work? I just I don't know what to say about that.
00:11:18
Speaker
Maybe it falls into what you said a second ago where you're talking about, if I understood it right, the journey of the production company working a lot closer with brands directly, but then they want to expand out a little bit. But marketing themselves to ad agencies is a difficult thing to do and a different kind of beast that maybe that's their journey. So they just get some direct client work and build their portfolio that way. And then when they're ready to expand into the agency world, that's when they might be ready.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yes correct and oftentimes these production companies are in new york or la and so they have access direct access to the advertising agencies in their cities there have been several times when a production company will approach me that they've worked with sachi la and widen portland and good be san francisco they've never worked in the midwest that's what i'm interested in.
00:12:00
Speaker
Okay, let me take what you've done with these advertising agencies in your backyard on the West Coast and introduce it to the agencies of the Midwest. That's where a rep will be interested in a new company or a new venture that is unknown in their territory because they're established someplace else already.
00:12:17
Speaker
So if you're a production company that's interested in that kind of expansion, which I think most are, right? Everybody kind of gets their start, or I should say many people get their start regionally, right? They're working in their hometown, they're working somewhere. But if they want to expand out of that, and most of them do as they want to grow, then that's when an agent becomes a really efficient way of getting into that, right? Familiar territory by someone there. The expert guide works.
00:12:41
Speaker
You know, it very much does. I mean, there's several reasons that you would want a rep. And one of them is that independent reps like myself have rosters of other production companies. And your company wants to be associated with those other companies like, oh, we've got Doug Stephen and reps at this company and this company, this company and us like we're part of this cool group. You know, it looks good. The other thing is that.
00:13:03
Speaker
A rep already, you know, a rep spends their career becoming a trusted resource to these advertising agencies. So if I am representing you, I just plug you right in. Like it's like a shortcut. If I'm representing you, I've vouched for you already to these advertising agencies. I wouldn't represent something that I did not think was a good idea.
00:13:21
Speaker
And so that's a massive shortcut. Then also the ability to get a window into what the market is in my territory is the value that I will add as well. I know my market very well. I know not only just what accounts are at these advertising agencies, but I know like the legacy of these clients and the type of work they've done in the past and if they are willing to go super creative or if they want to just literally shoot the boards or if they need handholding or all this type of stuff.
00:13:48
Speaker
So it's a wealth of knowledge and wisdom and experience that when you partner with a rep, you just automatically get that. And it's it's also a weird thing because sometimes you work with a company and I work with a production company. And after a while, we just realize this is not working. You know, this is still business, even though, you know, we're all buddies in this. It's still business. So if it's not working like we need to somehow make a change here, you know, either find another rep or something like that.
00:14:16
Speaker
And you don't know until you get into that relationship. That's the scariest part about hiring a rep, I would think, is that you just don't know this person. They might have a reputation that you've heard of or anything like that, but you have no idea if it's going to be a good working relationship until you actually do it.
00:14:30
Speaker
What should a production company owner look for in the qualifications of a rep that they think can serve them well? I mean, you kind of answered it in the first part where you said credibility. They have credibility with the agency. So just being part of a rep's roster, so to speak, is some kind of a filtering in of itself. What else goes beyond what they should be
Importance of Honesty in Representation
00:14:49
Speaker
looking for?
00:14:49
Speaker
I personally think that a production company should work with a rep that is completely honest. A lot of times sales reps, this is part of the negative connotation, are bullshit artists. I will say a lot of things that don't actually translate into work happening for that production company or say things to keep you happy without being honest enough to tell you the bad news as well. A rep should reflect their market.
00:15:17
Speaker
If I am pushing a director and I'm getting nowhere, it's been like I put him up for twenty six twenty eight thirty leads and not any any action from it, then that's that's my market saying we don't like this director. It's not me saying we don't like this director, but I will be the bearer of bad news and say this is not working. My market is not buying this.
00:15:35
Speaker
I also think that the constant communication with your reps is very important. I've heard of instances where someone has said, like, I haven't talked to my rep in three months and I'm blown away by that. I'm in constant communication with every single person I rep, either text or whatever, pretty much every single day.
00:15:52
Speaker
And that constant communication is why I call my company Doug, Steven and partners was because these are the people I'm partnering with in order to make a successful whatever it's going to be. And if you work with partners and you never talk to them, that is bizarre. The other thing is that there are sometimes when a production company will choose a rep just because of the other companies that that rep.
00:16:10
Speaker
I'm has on the roster i've lost several i've gone after certain production companies and lost because they went with other rap that has a sexier roster but i know for a fact they're not gonna get any attention i know for a fact that they're not gonna be presented in the market in a way that will actually help them grow and.
00:16:26
Speaker
I would absolutely be wary of choosing a rep just because they have some such and radical and smuggler. It's cool that you're at the party with the cool kids, sure, but there's a chance that you will not actually get the strategy that is needed in order to become successful in Midwest.
00:16:44
Speaker
Don't just choose a record label because they have Beyonce to get the music metaphor going. Are they going to work for you or not? That's what matters. Yes, exactly. Are there any specific kinds of questions that a production company could ask a potential rep to find out if they're honest or not? Well, that's a great question.
00:17:03
Speaker
I remember talking to a rep many years ago, and this is during the informational interview thing before I was doing this, and I said, what percentage of all the jobs happening in the Midwest right now would you say that you are aware of? And he said, all of them. I know about all of them. And it was like, ding, ding, ding, ding. And my head like, that is not true.
00:17:23
Speaker
I think that one of the things that I value about the honesty back and forth is that if I don't know, I am perfectly happy saying I have no idea. If I were to be asked which advertising agencies are looking forward to more experiential work this year, I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know. I can start asking around, but I don't know.
00:17:44
Speaker
asking about strategy as well. If I were to be working with you, what would your game plan be for me over the first year? And hopefully that's just second nature to a rep. They're like, well, first I would do this and then I would do this and then I would do this and then I would do this. There is at least some sort of skeleton plan, plan of attack. I also think that there's a perfectly valid question to ask. What's your day-to-day like? Are you seeing people in person? Are you going out often or are you
00:18:14
Speaker
just doing emails and phone calls where would you say your best relationships are things like that you know it's really really hard to find a rap and then what makes it even more difficult is that you will find the five reps you like and they all turn you down so you need to be able to talk to the next tier and then maybe even the tier after that just really try to cuz there there are some exquisitely talented reps out there that
00:18:37
Speaker
don't have the sexiest rosters that don't represent like the directors doing Super Bowl spots, but they work their asses off and they work hard and they're efficient and they are known for finding the opportunities that are appropriate for your directors.
00:18:54
Speaker
Then there are the reps who maybe don't have any interest in nurturing a career, like developing a production company or a director's career. They just more like reactive sales people where they're just like, here's a lead and he's going to put up for it. I would say that if you are not Smuggler and if you are not MJZ, you need to be very active with what I call proactive sales, meaning
00:19:18
Speaker
You've got to create a fan base out there. These people have never worked with these directors before, but you need to sort of, you know, market them and represent them in a way to to make people, you know, really think they're amazing, you know, and want to work with them at some point, you know.
00:19:34
Speaker
So what tools are the reps using to create that fan base, right? Like emails or what other kind of communication they're putting out there that gets you in front of people and starts generating a buzz, right? Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it is, you know, I might I might find I might identify the 25 people that I want to talk specifically about this one director. And I want to just talk with them about that. And I know these people. So I, of course, talk differently to each person or I email differently to each person. It's
00:20:01
Speaker
the cut and paste game with emails is a kiss of death you just can't do that of course it takes a long time but it's you know like you can ruin your reputation by just just like saying the exact same thing to the next person you know and it doesn't come across as authentic.
00:20:18
Speaker
I mean, what I've said a thousand times is that I cannot sell something unless I personally think it's awesome. If I don't think it's very good, I will probably end up saying, I mean, this is all right. You want to look at this gets all right. I need to really authentically say that I think this director is amazing.
00:20:34
Speaker
Does it really matter that they're regional versus they, if a rep says, oh, represent the whole country, I shop you everywhere, or is regional a better approach if there's two options? Regional is by far better. There's too many people to know in the entire country and there's too many people even in your own regions. I mean, I don't know everybody.
00:20:52
Speaker
I don't have relationships with everybody. I think that if you talk to reps who cover the entire country, you will be sacrificing an element of relationships. And I really do I will follow my sword that the reason I am being paid to do what I do is because I have relationships.
00:21:10
Speaker
Not because I'm a connector, not because I know how to bring together, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these buzzwords on the about sections of rep sites. Really, it's because I have relationships, trusted relationships with people who make decisions. That's why you're paying me. And so if I'm saying I can cover the entire country, that's, I would say, literally impossible to do. Well, that's really sound insight. But
Compensation and Teamwork in Sales
00:21:33
Speaker
here's the big question. This is the one that every listener has been waiting for me to ask. How much does it cost?
00:21:38
Speaker
It's pretty standardized. I don't want to pull the curtain back all the way because every deal is different and every rep is different. Repping in general, there is no guidebook. There is no standard operating procedure. Every single rep does things completely different and we have no idea. Some of my best friends in Chicago are other reps and I have no idea how they actually do their job.
00:22:01
Speaker
And they don't know how I do mine because it's all personalized. And that can also be the case with the, you know, the money aspect of it, too. But standard process would be that if we book if I bring in a job and we book it, I will make a percentage of the budget of whatever the budget is. That's in a nutshell. I mean, it's much more detailed than that. But but let's say, you know, I bring in a Kellogg's job and the budget for production is two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a one day shoot.
00:22:29
Speaker
I will be given a percentage of that budget as payment. And then quite often reps will require a monthly stipend. Like a retainer of sort. Mm hmm. It would be considered like this is just what you pay me each month in order to represent you. And then the when we book a job, it's like a massive bonus. That's not some some people don't do that. There are plenty of times in my career where I have not taken a retainer, but there are other times that I have. But it's standard that it's a percentage of the budget.
00:22:59
Speaker
and a monthly retainer now the thing about being a rap is that besides that monthly retainer you don't get paid at all i could have brought in thirty five bids for you last year and we lost every single one and i didn't get paid for any of that so it's it's a rather strange compensation system and i don't i don't know if it exists like that and other sectors of industry or whatever but
00:23:21
Speaker
I could be kicking ass for you. I could be bringing you amazing opportunities that you've never had before. If we don't book those jobs, I don't make any money. There is lots of talk, especially over the years, about maybe trying to figure out a different model. It's very difficult to change a model like that. There have been times when I've pitched to companies like, you don't even have to pay me a percentage of the jobs, you just pay me a
00:23:46
Speaker
chunk each time I bring you a bid. Regardless, if you lose it or not, you pay me for that bid. And then I don't need to take a percentage off the production budget anymore. And I'm laughed out the door. It's expensive. Reps are very expensive. I mean, that you are paying for, like I said, a shortcut into the market. You're paying for my relationships with which I have built over years. And you don't have those relationships. I mean, like I said, the production companies in New York and LA, they're not in Chicago or Minneapolis or Detroit. I am. And I know these people.
00:24:16
Speaker
So I'm giving you access to the people I know and that's expensive.
00:24:19
Speaker
For retainer, when that's in play, is that something like $1,000 a month, $5,000 a month, $10,000 a month more? Is there a range there? Yeah, there's an absolute range. And it depends on the production company. Or if it's a post company, it might be different too. If it's a visual effects company, that might be a different thing as well. It seriously can range from $500 a month to $5,000 a month. Yes, easily could. I would say standard, that is the most common
00:24:48
Speaker
would be above 500 and below 2000. That's a good ballpark right there. And I imagine those numbers are somewhat interrelated in that if one goes up, the other one might go down a little bit and vice versa because there's a risk reward factor at play for both of them. Lower the risk and you lower the reward, higher the risk, higher the reward kind of stuff. By the way, I hope that all my rep friends who are listening to this
00:25:09
Speaker
Don't get mad at me for saying all that stuff. We're demystifying this. Transparency makes better business. That's what matters. It serves all of our interests. So, okay, you're out there hustling for a production company. Reps are out there doing their work. Is there an expectation that they're doing sales along with you and there's a kind of communication going on? How does that work?
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah, so there are instances where production companies will have like a head of sales on staff or an executive producer who is sales forward. That's not the same thing as a rep. It's more like we work as a team. It's like teamwork. It's more strategy and approach, but that's not always the case. There are lots of production companies where the executive producers are previously line producers and they have been producers their entire life. Never
00:25:55
Speaker
never sales. However, just with the nature of this beast is that everyone always must be in sales. I know sales sounds bad, but it's really about knowing when to say what. I think though that lots of companies do not have the expertise in a marketplace like an independent rep does. They really do lean on and count on their rep to be the expert.
00:26:18
Speaker
to guide them on the best way to present your director is the best work that's out there. There are so many times when maybe I'll get a board in for a director that it's OK. You know, it's not that cool. However, those that creative team, that art director and that copywriter, they won four lions last year and can. They are awesome. And so you want to be working with those creatives, even though this board got kind of, you know, watered down by the client or by testing or something like that.
00:26:44
Speaker
And then there are other times when maybe it's an amazing board with an amazing client, with an amazing agency, and they don't have any money to do it. And we will collectively decide that we're just not going to make any money on this because we got to do this, and myself included. I always like to say it's my reel too. I want to have the coolest reel out there too, just the way a director does. I think that
00:27:03
Speaker
the executive producers that come from sales or have sales experience have the confidence to be able to really talk about their directors and talk about their company with people in a natural way and also and put it in a context that is relevant to whoever we're talking to it so and so agency.
00:27:20
Speaker
That partnership, that teamwork is advantageous and I love that. I mean, there are so many times when we've brought in a project because I had my idea about how to do this and the EP at the production company had an idea how to do this and we sort of combine them together and then it worked. There was a massive Ford job we did a couple of years ago where we were
00:27:43
Speaker
pulling episodes of this TV show that this director did and cutting out clips of it that were speaking to the storyboards in order to get that in. We got it. And it was, you know, it was a big win. That was me and the executive producer working on that. I had the question. I feel like maybe you've answered it in some way about I'm kind of always concerned about, you know, having middle people in a transaction. And would a rep be seen as an unnecessary middle person in a deal where they could work directly with the
00:28:11
Speaker
You know, an agency could work directly with a production company themselves. But after listening to you, I'm rethinking that in that there's the vetting part, right? That we're defined by the people we keep. And if you keep good people, they're someone that could be trusted. And therefore, it's in my interest, business interest and all of the creative interest to work with you and to find out who you have. You've also made me realize that it doesn't cost them more money. You're not taking a fee for them coming to you.
00:28:36
Speaker
since you're taking it from the other side, you know, it should theoretically not cost them any money. Are there any other friction points where it's not advantageous to have a rep speaking to clients versus you speaking directly to clients or the clients just calling the production companies themselves? Do they prefer to work with you?
00:28:56
Speaker
It's interesting. I would say the majority of advertising agency producers who I'm speaking to more so than creatives. I'm speaking to producers 90% more than I'm speaking to creatives. Majority of them would rather talk to a rep because the rep can filter out the directors from these multitudes of rosters. Some production companies have 35 directors. How do you know which one is right?
00:29:18
Speaker
I do. It's, again, a shortcut for them. I do the work for them. From the 98 directors that I represent, here are the four that are good for this project. I do the thinking for them on that aspect. Going directly to a production company, one of the things that I often point out is that a production company has their own agenda. Let's say they've got a director that has not worked in three months and is desperate.
00:29:42
Speaker
That production company might put that director in front of that agency producer because they need to get this director a job. Whereas I would look at that director and say, that is not the right director for the job. I would have never put that up. I think that at least with my reputation, people know that if I'm presenting a director to you, it's a realistic and appropriate suggestion.
00:30:01
Speaker
There are lots of agency producers that like to have those relationships with the executive producers at production companies and will go around a rep, or they have more value with their relationship with the executive producer in Los Angeles than the rep in Chicago.
00:30:14
Speaker
That's not always, but that is a situation. That's one of the things that going back to the contracts and compensation, I have worked out deals with all the people that I work with that regardless if that happens, I'm still compensated on that. What do you want a production company to do or not to do?
Marketing and Specialization in Film Production
00:30:34
Speaker
in terms of marketing themselves and getting themselves visible and known, their point of view, their work, all of that while you're out there doing sales. So for instance, content marketing, should they be doing their own newsletter? Should they be doing posts on LinkedIn? Or is there anything else they should be doing in terms of marketing themselves or not doing that would help you when you're doing sales work.
00:30:54
Speaker
I would say for the most part, all marketing is helpful. Doing a newsletter email campaign, having a cool Instagram account, posting on LinkedIn, having a PR firm to help you get in the trades. All of that in addition to being willing to travel to Chicago or Detroit or New York or LA to meet people in person. I know that that is sales, but there's a marketing aspect of it too because it's
00:31:22
Speaker
branding that, you know, so-and-so company is coming to town and they like to meet, you know, and I do a lot of marketing. I mean, I think that marketing is absolutely necessary. It's not relationship. Sales is all about relationships. Marketing is about branding yourself and branding your taste level and branding your prestige and things like that. Branding your key features of your product, right? We are specialized. We do this really well, better than most, you know, kind of a thing.
00:31:49
Speaker
I do also think one of the you know, this is tying back to something we spoke about earlier. I've had conversations with production companies and I've asked like, who are you as a company? Like, what is your thing? How are you different? Why? What makes you stand out among all the other production companies?
00:32:06
Speaker
And that's, you know, maybe that's part of branding and then also would reflect marketing. Like, are you are you presenting yourself to the marketplace in a way that that is easily identifiable? Oh, that's that production company. They're really cool that way. You know, or these are the young wunderkinds who are like 25 years old, but they're making amazing work, you know, or we're we are the award winning
00:32:25
Speaker
global company. Identify who you are because that will make it easier for the people who might buy your directors to identify who you are. There are lots of times when production companies will say, oh, we're just filmmakers. That's too broad. For storytellers. That's a hard thing to do for a lot of people. It's very hard.
00:32:47
Speaker
I, I, now you're getting into my world and that's what the first thing I do when I take on a client is like, okay, so are you prepared to be a specialist and who you are? I always kind of give the metaphor of sunscreen. If you make a sunscreen that is hypoallergenic, right? That is, that is got some features in it that are really different than everyone else or for a particular type of person that needs those things. You would market that on your sunscreen so that people could easily find if they are allergic to something, they could find that you don't have it. And that's a thing. Yes, you.
00:33:17
Speaker
our sunscreen and you block the sun on anybody that applies it on them, but you are especially good for this type of person that needs this type of thing. And you want to express that key element, that thing that sets you apart so that people that are looking for that can find you because if they can't see it, you're just going to become invisible. And that's the point from which I think all the marketing should come from.
00:33:41
Speaker
That's where you really talk about yourself. It's where you share your point of view from those key things. It's not the only thing you do. It's the thing you do better than just about anybody else. You'd be hard pressed to find others. If you need this kind of thing, come to us and you'll find people you actually like working with because they're looking for the things that you offer. That's kind of my point of view on that whole marketing bit.
00:34:02
Speaker
Not only is that absolutely wise, it's also it applies to how reps market themselves as well. I mean, I know my angle. I'm aware of my angle. And most people at advertising agencies know my angle as well of what my thing is, you know, and reps and production companies need to do their market research.
00:34:22
Speaker
look at other production companies and see how they're presenting themselves and how do you and how do you stand up against that or away from that. And there is like a fear of being pigeonholed. Like if you say like we're a music video director production company, then maybe, you know, they won't take your director seriously for a nutrigena.
00:34:40
Speaker
commercial or something like that. And yet it does help because when you are the fit, you're the go to. And that's I mean, there are so many times when I don't know about a project happening in the Midwest because they didn't do a search. They didn't search to find the right directors. They knew here's the seven. I would like David Fincher and Craig Gillespie. They know who they want and they're just going directly to them.
00:35:01
Speaker
That used to make me feel like, oh, man, you know, like I'm not good enough or something like that. But that has nothing to do with your marketing or your sales or anything like that. It's that they felt like having chocolate ice cream that day. So they went after chocolate ice cream and I have vanilla and strawberry and and whatever, you know, all these other flavors, but that's the flavor they wanted.
00:35:18
Speaker
I call it like it's a paradox in our business. It's a paradox in physics actually where you're so many production company owners don't want to lean into their specialization because they're afraid they're going to turn off business opportunities. But the paradox is by really embracing and leaning into your specialty, it actually opens up more business because more people can find you for what they're looking for.
00:35:38
Speaker
and there's plenty to go around right and then they see you they get a relationship with you and then they look around see you do have other flavors here this one was really good let me try the other ones and it's so strange it defies common sense but the more specialized you are rather the more business comes to you it's crazy is that your experience is what i noticed.
00:35:56
Speaker
Absolutely. So there are there are certain over the years and to this day, there are certain well established famous commercial production companies who are known for comedy. That's like if you've got a comedy board, you call these five production companies because they have specialized in comedy their entire careers. They know comedy, they have a great taste level when it comes to what is funny. They also know what's trending in the world of comedy right now. Like, oh, my God, they've got the guy from Ted Lasso or something like that, you know, and so they become famous for that.
00:36:22
Speaker
When they expand their roster to include a vignette lifestyle storytelling director or to include a visual effects oriented director or something like that, the clout of that production company name is there and established already and will probably open up doors for those other types of directors in a way that might not happen on a different roster with a different production company.
00:36:43
Speaker
Let's say you've always wanted to work with this amazing comedy production company, but you never do comedy. But you've always wanted to work with them, but you never do comedy. Oh, they've got a vignette director. Oh, now I get to work with this cool production company. I think that in order to create your identity and in order to create your clout, specializing is a very valuable and fast way to do that.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:37:04
Speaker
Doug, you have been a tremendous amount of wealth. Thank you for being so candid and honest, despite what your peers in your business might think.
00:37:14
Speaker
They're gonna love it. They're gonna wish they were you. Thank you so much for coming on the show and helping us understand this world a bit better. Yeah, you're welcome. And thank you. It was a lot of fun. Always good to talk to you. Always good to talk to you too.
00:37:29
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S dot com.