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[Client Side Conversation] How To Win Business With Kevin Knutson
120 Plays2 months ago
Get ready for an insider’s perspective on winning the client-side game in this conversation with Kevin Knutson, a seasoned industry leader in creative marketing, content strategy, production, and brand development. With a career shaped by roles at outdoor brands like REI, Filson, and Eddie Bauer, Kevin now serves as the Creative Director at Mod Pizza. In this episode, he offers insights on what truly resonates with clients when production companies pitch their services—from the essential elements of a reel to approaches that add genuine value.
Kevin shares his thoughts on the ideal client-partner relationship, including when to bring creative ideas to the table, how to strike a balance between collaboration and hands-off execution, and best practices for navigating post-project follow-ups.
Tune in to hear Kevin’s do’s and don’ts for engaging with him and other creative directors, along with candid advice on what he values most from production partners. This episode is packed with actionable tips that can transform how you approach potential clients and elevate your biz dev strategy to new heights.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:06
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kebles.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning in to the show. Today we're diving back into our client side series where we explore the ins and outs of business development straight from the people who we'd like to work with. These conversations are some of my favorites because they don't just focus on the sales pitch.
00:00:40
Speaker
Instead, they reveal how we can truly connect the dots between a client's vision and an agency's expertise, trying to turn that spark into a genuine partnership. That's why I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Kevin Knudsen. Kevin's career journey has taken him primarily through iconic outdoor brands like REI, Filson, and Eddie Bauer. But just recently, he's brought his talents Plaid and Gore-Tex over to Mod Pizza as their new creative director.
00:01:05
Speaker
Beyond building brand campaigns, Kevin is passionate about the creative partnerships that bring those visions to life. So today we're digging into what makes a great client agency relationship from his perspective, along with some do's and don'ts for those looking to work with him and other creative directors.
Kevin Knudsen's Career Journey
00:01:21
Speaker
So Kevin Knudsen, welcome to the show. Hey James, good to be here. Did I miss anything in the introduction? I think you nailed it all in one, except I don't have too much Gore-Tex. No, you just stay with the plaid.
00:01:32
Speaker
yeah So my real question is, well, congratulations on the new gig at ah Mod Pizza. After your out long outdoor adventures, what's your Mod Pizza topping combo to refuel from the from the hikes? ah You know, I really like actually an olive oil and garlic base, pepperoni, ricotta, and mama little pepper.
00:01:51
Speaker
Ooh, that's very close to mine too. Gorgonzola, I would add to mine. And man, I tell you, I might take your job just to be paid in no-name cakes. I love those things so much. I can't even... i The first time I ever had one it was that key lime or something. I wouldn't buy like five of them. So good. My first week on the job, we did a photo shoot of no-name cakes and I ate about eight of them because we just had to keep finding the right one.
00:02:16
Speaker
that looked good on camera and all the others just had to go somewhere. So I volunteered. Worth the job right there. So speaking of the job that you have now, I've known you for a while. We have i've actually worked together before on production and I've really admired your career, but I don't know if I fully understand where it started, how you got into advertising, commercial business and all that stuff. Where where did it begin?
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's a it's a really weird progression. I had an encounter with a grizzly bear in the Montana wilderness. And, ah you know, up until then, I was on a path to physics as most people are. I was like, you know, what am I gonna do with this physics degree? I should do something a little bit more in tune with what I wanted to do, which at the time was arts and, you know, trying to find something visual and entertaining. And I found myself face to face with a little point and shoot camera with a grizzly bear. And I was like, yeah, this feels right. so Where was this? I was just outside of Glacier. Yeah, I mean, I was a terrible photographer at the time, but you know, always really liked the visual arts. And I was like taking some some really lousy photos of dragonflies or something on
00:03:24
Speaker
on leaves and I felt the the ground kind of shaking, which which in Montana is like not terribly uncommon because it's pretty geothermal out there. And I looked up and it was kind of like one of those Hannah Barbera cartoon moments where like I looked up and in front of me was a bear that looked up at the same time. Our eyes met. We were about 50 feet away from each other. Just like instinctually, i I took a step forward toward the bear, which is not the recommended course of action. And lucky for me that the bear just took off running. But it was like having that little layer of a camera in my hand really had this beautiful mind moment of clarity of like, I got i got to do something with this. You know, if this isn't like my instinct is to put a camera between me and and ah a grizzly bear, maybe there's something to that. And I had always loved
00:04:11
Speaker
nature and and being outdoors. you know Actually, this was like the first camera I had ever owned. I got back to my campsite and I was like, I'm going to drop this physics thing and I'm going to go study video production. And ah yes, I transferred schools and I started down a ah path of of production. And so a lot of my career was actually doing video production, filmmaking, documentary, edutainment, motion graphics, editing, shooting,
00:04:39
Speaker
being on set, being in studio, being in the field. And early on, I actually was able to land a role with National Geographic's eco-tourism partner called Limblight Expeditions. Before you jump into that, i yeah I have to ask a question about this bear. Hold on a second. I'm not gonna, I'm not letting you go that quick. here Yeah, let's go to the bear. I'm trying to figure out what happened inside of you. Was it that you fell in love or something happened with capturing the emotion of being in the, the emotion of fear of the moment? Artistically, you capture that fear and capture emotion creatively. Was that something that happened that made you go, I need to pursue that kind of career?
00:05:20
Speaker
you You might be putting words to it and in a good way that maybe I just haven't really dissected. I think, again, it it just felt very instinctual of like separating myself from this moment of I have an ability to try to capture this moment and my instinct was just let's do it, which is interesting. I have since found myself in that same scenario with a little bit more common sense, but still that same instinct of if you have the tool in your hand, use it. And I think we've seen instances of that in other parts of history. And I don't want to compare myself to some like really amazing moments in history. But people who I think are production artists, filmmakers, editorial artists, they just kind of extend through their tool a little bit. And I think that was a moment where I realized, oh, maybe I need to
00:06:12
Speaker
figure out the actual education behind this. Because if that was my instinct, what was that telling me actually? ah Because frankly, i I'm pretty uncomfortable with bears. I did a lot of camping um in the Montana wilderness and always had my bear mace with me always, you know, was very cognizant about leave no trace and and camping with not open food and and all that. But then here, face to face with it, actually, in real life, with a camera in hand, that fear went away. And so that told me something. You present yourself as an artist. So if you look up online, your website and your kind of portfolio and stuff, you you present yourself as an artist, creative ah maker, in addition to just like an administrator or, you know, in the professional business of it.
00:06:53
Speaker
what Is that right, first of all? And if that's right, were you creative in a first person artist kind of way before the bear or did that come after the bear? That's a great question. First, I think we all have some innate artistic abilities in us and a lot of us shy away from from using that title. And so, yeah, I always had that.
00:07:12
Speaker
I always was drawn to creating visual things. As a kid, really loved kind of splitting a very logical mind, being very mathematically driven, that's why I was in physics in the first place, to a very whimsical, creative, visual one.
00:07:30
Speaker
But how deep do you want to get into this story? Because there's actually. Well, I thank you for asking that very good question. ah We probably should talk about the client business relationship, client partner relationship. So we should get into that. I guess I'm in some ways to me, this does inform that because you're about to tell us about what resonates with you in a creative partner and a production partner. Right. And so I think that's part of knowing you and that's part of knowing yeah yeah I think for the most part, you probably speak for many creative directors at brands that are vetting you know potential partners. But with that said, everyone's unique and everyone's you. So I'm just trying to get to the uncovering about the origins of what you're about to explain and what matters to you. So yeah take that for what it is. we'll we'll We'll shelve it for there. And then kind of give me into your journey of what you've been going through professionally with the outdoor brands and now with ah creative director Madpizza.
Influence of Education on Creativity
00:08:29
Speaker
Sure.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I can give you the short version of like the art to ah where I am now because that does give some good context. So yeah, I was ah artistic and that was kind of pushed me. I got pushed into the direction of art and production actually through George W. Bush, ah if you can believe it. So yeah, a lot of my career is owed to George W. Bush and a grizzly bear.
00:08:54
Speaker
But in high school, I was trying to study a lot of math and physics, and a little legislation called No Child Left Behind was enacted. And schools that were falling behind in common core curriculum ah got defunded. And my school is one of those. And so they were sending seniors home half days.
00:09:13
Speaker
I took exception to that. I thought that was unjust. And so I petitioned the school board to allow me to create independent studies. Now, the only courses that basically could be supported through independent studies were art classes. And so I got the very jaded art teachers to agree to be my mentors. And I had three different art courses my senior year of high school. So my senior year was spent half of the time in art classrooms doing self-guided studies with art mentors. And the interesting thing is that one of them was a commercial artist, one of them was a very freeform artist, and one of them was a very kind of pragmatic in between.
00:09:52
Speaker
And that really set a tone for me in my professional world because the very commercial artist, you know, if I had an assignment that I set out for, ah for instance, like if I wanted to paint a landscape, he would have me look at that work and say, does this look like a photorealistic landscape to you if that's what you wanted to do? And if not, you failed. It needs to be exactly what you set out to do. The very freeform artist would look at that same painting and say, if this is an expression of what you felt, then you succeeded, and it's beautiful for what it is. And the other artist teacher would look at it and say, why did you choose to paint this in the first place? You need to understand why you chose the paint, why you chose the subject,
00:10:33
Speaker
And if this is really what you wanted to do anyway, the justification could come afterward and then the measure for success is up to you. So that's kind of the short form of it, but that really did have an impact on everything from there. So even though I did continue to do physics, I defaulted back to a lot of the art after Grizzly Bear. So thanks, George Bush and Grizzly.
00:10:53
Speaker
So we had never expected that from this conversation. Yeah, here we are. ah So I imagine since you were so able to recall those impressions on you from that experience that you carry those impressions with you when you're thinking about production partners right though those are principles and values and perspectives that you're seeing like the commercial teacher the freeform teacher in this other teacher and using the instincts of each one to analyze how you want to go forward with campaigns do you actually have it that conscious in your mind.
00:11:25
Speaker
Oh, I absolutely do. And I usually you know will hold myself to that higher standard, but it definitely comes up when I speak to other production artists because I think that all comes through an expectation and communicating um what are we trying to do, kind of that selecting your medium ah first, selecting your subject, and then setting that measure for a success. I think that's a very important one. You know, like delivering on what you are hoping to do is very important. And sometimes that's what you have to do.
00:11:53
Speaker
But then also being able to justify a surprise, something that maybe goes a different way, being open to that. And I think that's a delightful way to look at some projects. So yeah, all their voices are kind of like... three little three little heads on my shoulder that are constantly talking to me. And I actually have followed up with them. I've been out of high school for a long time, but I called them up and I've emailed them and told them that I still appreciate their their life lessons. Oh, I like hearing that. That's fantastic. So how does that present itself when you're looking for a new production partner?
00:12:28
Speaker
where I've gotten to is working on a kind of a small scale level of doing internal creative, ah working with some internal teams and then often bringing in external partners to either realize some of that creative or ah work together toward internal creative ideas or ah external partners coming to me to fit into kind of broader marketing and creative plans for a brand.
00:12:53
Speaker
I think to answer your question, though, it's worth kind of looking at a little bit of industry history, at least from my perspective, because a lot of my career has been internally with brands. And although it started off, um a lot of it was freelance as a production artist as a filmmaker, it did morph into more strategic as a producer as a director as a person working internally. And so I have seen a lot of kind of the shift ah strategically of how brands and businesses operate
00:13:31
Speaker
from a content standpoint and strategically just how those asks have come about and how the the whole process has kind of shifted and i think there's some kind of key moments in the past oh what twenty years now that have evolved and therefore have evolved kind of.
00:13:48
Speaker
the relationship between brands and partners and agency partners. So if we look at a little bit of history, again, these are kind of my observations. They're not one size fits all and and others may have different mileage. And a lot of my experiences in retail and specifically outdoor retail. But I think there's a lot of shades that cover a lot of different industries out there.
00:14:10
Speaker
And when we look at kind of the content creators, especially with filmmakers or motion media, photography goes in there as well. But specifically motion, there is kind of a golden era of content, which was like the the short film editorial message coming out that was very inspiring, very engaging.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I think the evolution of technology allowed for that to happen. When I first got into this industry, it was right before YouTube started. Then we saw the the explosion of platforms like Vimeo, ah Instagram. Remember Instagram didn't even need to have video for a while. It was like Vine. You know, social media has taken off. And now video is this really powerful tool. And so brands like a Red Bull, Yeti, ah they started putting out really powerful short films. And that created this huge need in the industry to tell passionate stories. And the stories were creating this whole new genre of advertising for brands where they were investing tons and tons of money. How do we get attention for these
00:15:23
Speaker
three to 15 minute long films. The thing is is that external partners, external vendors, filmmaking agencies were creating this content. And a lot of brands wanted that content. They wanted it inexpensively. So they moved a lot of that in-house. There's kind of a gold rush to bring those people in-house. And they said, we want the spark in the fire that Red Bull and Yeti and these other folks are making and make it cheap.
00:15:51
Speaker
right And for a little while, they got away with it because people wanted to do that. The tools were inexpensive, they were accessible, but then, you know, for various reasons, the industry kind of got oversaturated.
00:16:05
Speaker
We started to see the same sort of film get made everywhere. And now, because video is so impactful to advertising, the platforms themselves are changing the industry. The Googles, the Metas, the TikToks, they're very data-driven. And so the story itself is secondary to things like paid placement, to the actual structure of the edit, little triggers. you know That can be its own little TED Talk in and of itself.
00:16:35
Speaker
But there's almost like a battle against technology platforms to longer format. If you look at like Google's best practices for advertising, they want a 15 second or five second video. They don't want a three minute video or a half an hour video because they say no one will watch that, which is not true. People will watch it if it's good. Right. So that's kind of like this very, very brief history of the industry that gets us to today. So I work with brands in creative.
Digital Platforms and Multi-Platform Campaigns
00:17:04
Speaker
And when we are looking to support a campaign, we have multiple channels, right? We have social media, we have sometimes blog content, we have YouTube, we have in-store, e-com, all sorts of things. All of that has content that needs to support it. And so it's very tricky to kind of do these one-off editorial pieces that are very inspirational, that take a lot of effort, that take a lot of time and resources.
00:17:33
Speaker
and fit them into an already expensive campaign. unless there is a lot of collaboration and communication. So that's, that's where we are today. Are you talking about like companion content? Like, so you can't make, you're looking for partners that don't bring out one idea, but one idea that can be used in a lot of different ways or ah meet the product line, the product service or whatever, where it's finding its customers and resonate there too. Is is that right?
00:18:05
Speaker
So that kind of multi platform approach is something that does stand out to me. um I think what I mean is like when we form a campaign, that's just's usually kind of one big budget, right? And a lot of that striving that is, okay, product has to sell, or a service has to sell. And when we do that, think about like all those budgets that have to be balanced. And often, you're leading with print deadlines.
00:18:29
Speaker
Some of those can be up to six months ahead of ah head of go to market or or go live dates. And so you could be off season, you can be half a year lead time and trying to plan creative into that can be tricky, but let's say you do it. Let's say, all right, we are well ahead of schedule. We want to bring it in a motion partner to help communicate this narrative. Typically as a brand, you need to operate very, very swiftly.
00:18:59
Speaker
And again, in that golden era, when we had these beautiful films coming out, a good documentary film takes time. It takes getting to know the subject. It takes getting to sit with that subject. It takes physical being in the field time. But now we share that time.
00:19:14
Speaker
It's a shared service sort of world. And so if you have a photographer going out in the field to capture a product, for instance, in retail, if you're doing a ah three-day photo shoot, it's very difficult to match that magic in video in three days. It's hard to tell a compare compelling narrative or get an emotional story out of someone in three days. So now you're kind of working outside of that campaign creative, if you are allowed to.
00:19:37
Speaker
um And so the whole industry has kind of turned itself away from the model that built up a lot of these great talents and agencies to create wonderful films. So what what am I looking for? I typically am looking for a partner that knows all of these kinds of ins and outs, knows that there are multiple pieces of content that help land a campaign, that there are multiple platforms, and typically isn't only looking to deliver this magnum opus, this singular thing, but is, hey, how can we
00:20:13
Speaker
make your campaign come to life? How can we deliver platform specific, high impact things? Sometimes maybe that is still a short film. Maybe there's magic and and it happens. Maybe that is we can work together and make the short film part of the the campaign. But what else? Because that's usually not enough. ah How do you translate that to social media? Because social media isn't going to play a short film. And a trailer never performs well in social media. It just doesn't.
00:20:41
Speaker
So how do you capture that fire? I want a partner that knows that and when I want a partner with that is willing to work with that. Also, motion is an important aspect on a lot of websites. Do we have a partner that understands that and is shooting for other platforms other than just this one deliverable? I know we're kind of getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, but like these are things that I operate with on a daily basis. I'm not just beholden to one platform and beholden to a lot and motion.
00:21:08
Speaker
is here to stay for a lot of these platforms. And so a lot of the partners I like to align with nowadays are not necessarily filmmakers, they're motion content creators. And they understand filmmaking, but they understand that motion is a design element that goes into a lot of other touch points. How does a production company present itself that way without coming across as too presumptuous? you know Like, you know what you should do? How do they say that to you without offending you?
00:21:37
Speaker
No, a great question. So this is assuming they're coming to me. Nothing's been asked for, but we have an idea. And I think that's great. Always come to me with an idea. The way to do that is always transparency and honesty. We are experts, you and me, and presumably the people we work with, right?
00:21:57
Speaker
And so it's logical. I mean, yeah, of course there's there's tone. But if you say, I have this idea, you can come to me with curiosity. What have you got going on? And what are your biggest needs platform wise? Or if you have that experience, leave with that experience. We have this idea, and this is how we amplify it multiple channels. This is how we integrate it into existing campaigns.
00:22:22
Speaker
This is how we can use an idea and make it flexible enough to fit into maybe something you have already working. It's always like a we have an idea and coming to me with like, we have this idea, pay for it. It's trickier because I feel like you're going to be able to do that to anyone. You know, you can, you can go.
00:22:43
Speaker
to any brand and say, I want to make this film, will you will you buy it? Which is fair. That's that's incredibly fair. But how can you work with me and and do a little bit of homework, know what my channels are, see what we've been doing in them, and show me or at least describe to me, if you don't want to show me, ah that you're at least thinking that way. And always give me the effect. I want to know, yes, what you want to make, but what is the intended effect? ah Because we are in a medium that is impossible to describe conversion
00:23:21
Speaker
or r ROI, right? It is super difficult to say if you make a short film that's going to turn into such and such dollar amount sales. It just does not work that way. So describe to me what the effect is on my customer base or my audience.
00:23:40
Speaker
If you make a film, social posts, and other elements, what does each of those platforms uniquely achieve from an emotion and from a next step from the from the viewer? Even if you're wrong, what do you think it will do? I do love outcomes, like being able to speak to the outcomes that we project might happen. But I think a better way to do it is to say goals. Yeah, I think goal is a good word. And I i think intent.
00:24:09
Speaker
ah is is another way to look at it. What is the intended outcome? And that kind of goes back to the three teachers, right? Why did you do this? Why did you paint the landscape? And yeah, it needs to look like the landscape. That's what you wanted to do. But you know, that third teacher of mine He wanted to know why did you choose a landscape instead of a strawberry, or why did you choose that instead of a portrait? If you can't answer that, then then you shouldn't have made it. That is that such a good way to introduce somebody, introduce themselves to you.
00:24:40
Speaker
really an understanding of your market, understanding of what they can do and how that might impact the market that you work in, the homework, the intent. So let's say they got your attention, they sent you a LinkedIn something something or they got your email and sent it to you or they got a friend to reference you, whatever they stalked you at a conference, whatever it might be. They did their work and they got your attention and you liked it and you agreed to talk to them and you're having that initial fit conversation. Hey,
00:25:05
Speaker
you know thanks for getting on the horn and and you're talking. I want to break down a little bit about what's important to you in that conversation. Obviously it's them thinking about you and the market and all of the challenges that you may have that they they think they can help you with and it might even be a case study but beyond that What is important about, like, do you need to know a team's process, like their proprietary process? Is the process important to you? Is um the personal interest of the team important for you? can they go Do you expect them to go beyond any brief that there might be there or any any um diving into further than what you've already given them? Break that down for me.
00:25:46
Speaker
This is very fascinating. And and again, you know I think every every project might be a little bit unique. So it's it's a little a little tricky to say this is this is how you do it every single time. However, I think there's some consistencies for me.
00:26:01
Speaker
One is, and and i I hate to lead with this, but it's it's a big one, be transparent with budget and cost. And the reason for that is because I'm your advocate. Typically, at a brand, right, it's difficult to have a single person with enough agency to green light a project. So if you connect with me, and you have, ah you know, a banner of a deck and ah and a project, I may want to say Yeah, let's do it. In fact, I probably want to say that to every single project that comes my way because I want it all. i I love it. I never get to say yes. I get to show it to people and then I get to try to work it into the campaigns I'm developing.
Budget Transparency in Production
00:26:45
Speaker
I get to try to make it make sense for the brand. Now, the big part of that is talking to people who also hold the purse strings. And you may not have the exact amount of money just yet, but we got to have that conversation and we got to have it right away.
00:27:03
Speaker
And so if I go to people within the organization, I'm like, Hey, this is a great story. I think it makes a lot of sense. Uh, we can really use this as, you know, you've answered all the questions about intent, what those goals are. That first question is going to be how much does it cost? And if we get them excited and it's seven times the budget that we have, we just wasted a whole lot of time.
00:27:29
Speaker
And I'm not going to haggle with you to get that price low because that is your price, right? You know, we don't need to cheat each other. So give me the price. Again, and it could be a range, um because we don't know and prices are are difficult to nail down. But like, we we got to have that conversation, we got to have it transparently. Because when I have that, maybe I know where the budgets are coming from internally, and I can make that a softer landing on your behalf. Beyond the budget, what else is important to you?
00:27:58
Speaker
Yeah, beyond the budget. Another big one is, you know, never underestimate the power of being human. And of course, the work is important. Of course, the the achievements, the accolades, all that very important. But at the end of the day, we want to work with people. And, you know, I have no no room for egos, you know, and I I don't want to have an ego.
00:28:24
Speaker
And so I get really excited when I can see those touches of humanity. Now, ego is not the same thing as confidence. And I love it when someone can speak very plainly about their team. And I want to see the team that is going to bring this to life. Tell me about the people who are behind this, especially like the people who are going to make it come to life in post-production. Like I get really excited about that because I think you know, that's where a project really comes to life is, is in the edit or or in interfacing with us as the client. And so if you're if you can confidently speak about the people you work with, where it's like, you know, our editor is amazing, because they they just really understand how, how dialogue functions, you know, like, I want to know that little tidbit, our director is amazing, because they can
00:29:14
Speaker
bring down the walls of any person that they're talking to. Wow, that's great. Like I want to know why your team is your team. If all you're telling me is like we make a good video, okay, there's a lot of people who make good videos. Why do they make good? How do they make good videos? And then like another one would be do something a little bit different. Now, that sounds like a platitude, but I see a lot of decks. I see a lot of people asking to to work together. And I think nowadays, kind of to the aspect of being human, you can go a little bit beyond to show that you are thinking kind of with a bigger worldview.
00:29:54
Speaker
I remember an ah RFP from a few years ago that was from a group of filmmakers. It was up against three other agencies that we had already worked with. They were the outsiders, but their RFP blew me away. The three that we had worked with kind of came in a little too blase. They were like, here is what we've done. Our work is great. And they they kind of lapsed on the homework aspect of understanding our brief.
00:30:21
Speaker
understanding what we were looking for, understanding the subtext of what we wanted to achieve. These kind of underdogs not only it came through with understanding the brief, they came through with a worldview. It was an all ah women and BIPOC owned production company. And the first thing that they did on their first page was say, we're going to charge you 5% more than our budget. And that's going to go to a land back fund.
00:30:47
Speaker
And we do that to everyone. And they gave links to the organizations that they work with. And they said, this is fundamental in doing business with us. So their first page was a budget before they even got into the creative. I was so arrested by that.
00:31:03
Speaker
i started to i mean I had heard of land back funds, but like I actually went away from the ah RFP to see their link. I'm not saying everyone needs to follow that, but like that was this one thing that came across that was just like, ah what? know Excuse me? What was interesting is they had less experience. Some might even say not as refined of quality as some of the companies that were competing for this,
00:31:28
Speaker
But then they really nailed the subtext. They they hit with something that was surprising. They talked about really the human aspect. They introduced themselves really well. And their deck was absolutely stunningly beautiful. They had images like full spread images in their deck. That was ah because it was an outdoor brief. they They took time just to like let the brief be beautiful. Here's the theme.
00:31:53
Speaker
Here's a landscape. Here's a landscape image ah within the brief because they understood that as an outdoor retailer, we wanted to inspire people to go outdoors. They were doing that in their brief before they even had the job. And there was just some really smart choices in that they got the job, and they got a few more after that.
00:32:14
Speaker
And everyone that we had worked with with them loved working with them. So they lived their brief as well. That is a great example. Okay. So we figured out how to get your attention and what resonates with you and how to then put up a package that gets you to see a vision and you buy it and you want to make something together. What is your preferred collaboration style with a partner? Do you prefer to be in the weeds? Do you want to be at a high level? How do you want someone,
00:32:42
Speaker
to come in and work with you on that? yeah That's an excellent question. Collaboration is is a huge one. and it's ah It's one of those words that feels like it's almost become meaningless, but it's it's so important. so To me, again, to echo something I kind of said just a moment ago is as we're all experts. You are working with us and with me because because you're excellent. and Therefore, I'm looking to you to be a great partner here.
00:33:11
Speaker
often it's kind of two paths. One is I want you to be the excellent artist you are and to to essentially take away a lot of the the production responsibilities of the brand, right? We have put trust in you ah to use your excellence to help us land the plane. And so as a client, as a brand, we will be stewards of what we know works for us strategically.
00:33:40
Speaker
ah how what you're going to be working on um fits into our bigger campaign needs into our bigger content strategy needs. But you, ah you know, you're more than just a pair of hands. And so we you know I always welcome a question. What motivates this decision? What do you think about this? But because you are now collaborating on this, I look to you for a lot of ah your expertise. So yeah, it's ah it's a collaboration. Sometimes this is through through remote remote workflows, right? because
00:34:13
Speaker
in post-production and in pre-production, a lot of that's going through email and through meetings, right? Sometimes I'm on site with people. In that case, I always love to have your team lead the conversation. I represent the brand. In this case, like anything that I'm bringing to the table is in service of protecting our investment. You are the creative artists. So I will empower you to help me protect the brand. You will create the project, the product.
00:34:43
Speaker
So if you have a director, if you have a producer, if you, you have all these, you make those micro decisions. You make those impactful decisions as far as how to make the best content, how to make the best film, how to make the best story. And then I.
00:34:59
Speaker
will be the guardrails. That's like, I love what you just are saying, but historically, the brand doesn't approve such and such or historically, you know, our customer base doesn't resonate with this. So can we try something else? It's almost seldom ever, you know, a clash of experience. It's ah it's a combination of experiences. um So that's that's how I like to collaborate is just knowing that like, yeah, we're for all experts.
00:35:29
Speaker
And I'm going to amplify your expertise and and listen to mine. You mentioned earlier the importance of post-production and editing. Could you unpack that a little bit? Yeah, I love editors. um I think editors are some of the most important people in in the industry.
Role of Editors in Film Production
00:35:46
Speaker
Any production can be saved by a capable editor. We need more of them. It's one of those difficult things to explain to someone who hasn't really kind of seen someone really in their element in the in the edit ah bay. But I love, even if you have really rotten footage or, or you know, if you're repurposing user generated content or, you know, weve we've all been there. Sometimes we just don't have the assets. And a real talented editor can just make absolute magic happen. And so I think that's a real asset for an agency is hype your post production team, tell me, tell me what they can do. I mean, I know they can edit. So how do they edit? it
00:36:32
Speaker
And like what is their capability as an editor? ah Because there's so many ah shades of of editing. right like Are they great at narrative? Are they great at you know making something really rhythmic? Are they really great at distilling seemingly disjointed imagery into something very whimsical and and impactful, anthemic? Or can they do all of it? And are they the best editor and in the West Coast? like I need to know these things. Or do they just do a montage and you think they're a great editor?
00:37:01
Speaker
maybe you know it's possible but to your question of like it it could be a little dangerous so this is where i'm a little bit unique because uh i'm also an editor i'm also a shooter i've had that history so i know what a rough cut is i know i know the difference between You know if you want to be too in a final i know what pre color and pre sound. Is like this is where again as long as we're always transparent with each other i know how to have a conversation with my team you know i often when i speak with team members or brands i always position myself as a translator.
00:37:37
Speaker
And I'm able to have a conversation with ah agency partners very specifically. We can speak like editors, like directors. And then when I speak with my team, I have to speak very, very differently, right? I'm not talking about J cuts and L cuts. I'm not talking about sound sweetening. I'm talking about stages and and emotion. it's It's a different conversation. But I think an important aspect here is is something I would like to see the whole industry change on. And I'm not sure if it can, but at least for me is like there is that barrier of protection, which is important. You need to protect your team, but make that protection a transparent one rather than an obstructive one.
00:38:20
Speaker
And so I see a lot of agencies when I get a review in our one of an edit, and I have questions, or maybe I need to send it to to leadership and and they form some questions and I usually filter their feedback just so you know, there's there's a whole system at play here. But there's always kind of a ah resistance to just have an honest conversation about maybe the next step. But to me, it's tell me what it takes. you know If the R1 comes back and we're like, we're we're not hitting it. I usually try to ask questions. how to What do you think about this? What's this doing? Where can we go from here? Do we capture this? Tell me the impact of these questions. Give me a solution that's like, well, we can explore maybe three really rough edits, get that tone right. And the impact is,
00:39:10
Speaker
it's going to be an additional cost. um You know, your notes weren't that clear, and therefore, it's going to take longer to do edit v2, you know, r2, like communicate the impact, rather than kind of being a a little bit obstructionist about it. I don't mean that in a harmful way. I don't mean like, hey, you're all being jerks. That's not the case. It's there's sometimes just like trend, a opaque barrier of Yeah, okay, got the feedback.
00:39:38
Speaker
or work on it, but then I don't hear how that was processed, right? And then so like when I have other bosses or other team members or other people, it's like, i again, I'm your advocate, I can't advocate for how that change is happening. And then then there's surprises in invoices and it's like, well, now we're not collaborating, now we're responding. And so post-production really can go in this weird direction sometimes, and we can have the same things that we all want with communication.
00:40:08
Speaker
Don't tell me why it can't happen. Tell me what it takes to make happen. And that sounds macho, and I i hate speaking that way, but there's there's always something. Is it more time? Is it more money? Is it another person? Because we have to get there. Or someone will make the decision that we can't do that, and then we don't do it.
00:40:29
Speaker
So just know that. Yeah. Oh, God. This is a great conversation. Okay. So they got your attention. They got the job. They made a whole bunch. You made a campaign together. It's got companion content. It's got all these things that are going to hit the intent. It knows the why. ah It has been a success. Your bosses are happy. It's doing what it's supposed to do in the marketplace.
00:40:55
Speaker
After that job is finished, what are some of the do's and don'ts for what a partner can do with that work? Are you comfortable with case studies, them turning you know your campaign into their marketing? Is that something you're totally cool with or are there any red flags that people need to be aware of? Can they ask for um references? Can they say,
00:41:16
Speaker
would you mind I noticed your friends with, would you mind introducing us? Can they use that or is that something that you prefer not to have happen? I'm curious about this post part to keep the business going and to really make hay out of the campaign they just made for you. it's That's an interesting question because I um and don't always get follow-ups and I actually am delighted when I do.
00:41:38
Speaker
you know, I'll get the like, thanks, or I'll get like repeat business requests. But I love debriefing. And I and I love ah looking at the work. I love I love when a partner takes an interest in it. ah So yeah, someone wants to case study it. Absolutely. Let me let me preface, there may be legal blocks for some of this, so I can't always say yes, but my feeling is absolutely ask because I can get that permission. you know There are certain projects that I've worked on where it's like, no, you can't because it's not public facing or it's ah you know not released yet, but most of the time, please absolutely make a case study out of it.
00:42:22
Speaker
I think a good practice and one that is a nice gesture is if you are going to be hyping it, it's nice to embed our deliverable because if you're going to be generating, that is if you're going to be using the entire deliverable.
00:42:37
Speaker
If you're going to edit your own case study video, great, whatever, but like don't split the deliver deliverable traffic. Do you know what I mean? Explain it to me more. I think I do, but I'm not certain I do. Okay. So if you made a ah short film for Eddie Bauer, let's say, and it's doing great and it's hitting the film circuit and people are watching it and it's getting an audience. Don't upload your own version to your channel now. I see. I see. Yes. Because now you're going to impact our SEO. You're going to impact.
00:43:06
Speaker
people's confusion about where they can go to view the piece, embed that in a case study page. Have ours be the original traffic source because you made it to see it succeed. And I think um a lot of, I see, I do see that sometimes where like an entire upload of a film gets put onto a ah channel and it's like, hey,
00:43:27
Speaker
We made this to drive traffic and now you're splitting traffic. iist yes yeah Yeah, that seems like a reasonable request. Yeah. And there's always some some you know potential to to work around that. you know If it's a social post, you can always tag because sometimes you do have to upload your own, but you can tag. like there's There's ways to still lead it back to the client. But I love that. Like, yeah, absolutely. Take pride in the work, show it, share it, because that is also advertising, right? Like, that's getting the name out there for for both of us, you know? And if you want to share more about what you did, like share some behind the scenes photos, stuff like that, I think that's always fair game too. Well, let me ask you this. Are you comfortable with a client asking you for a testimonial after a successful campaign?
00:44:14
Speaker
I am comfortable with the testimonial, yeah. In fact, ah that RFPA I i mentioned earlier, ah they reached out to me for a testimonial and I very you willingly gave one. It's interesting, I don't think I've been asked for very many. And so again, I was very happy to do so.
00:44:30
Speaker
You know, that doesn't take much effort. It doesn't take much time. You can always say no. So yeah, there's no problem there. Okay, so we've done this whole thing. You've been so generous. we got We got your attention. We got the business. We had fun. You're vouching for us. Is there anything we missed? Do you feel like there's something missing in the production world right now that we haven't hit on?
00:44:50
Speaker
ah One that I forgot to mention a little earlier that I think is kind of important. ah When you are budgeting for a presentation or for a project, please never use cost to dictate quality. I see this a lot where it's like, well, if we have ah this much money, we can deliver a gold level project. And if we have this budget, we can deliver as a silver level product, something like that. you know I understand kind of what you mean, but I think that is a way of thinking that ah needs to retire a little bit. Instead, what will the budget allow to happen, again, more results-based? How will an addition of budget impact the ability to align with our goals? How will it impact our timelines? Like cater the budget to the outcome, but not in a quality standpoint. And I see a lot of things of like, well, if we had this much money, we can get a drone.
00:45:48
Speaker
Technology is not quality. and That's not also not an outcome. It's not an outcome. so like Tell me about the people you're going to be working with or or the days or like what will additional days mean work through me in a way that makes sense. But if you say like $20,000 less means a less quality product, I don't want to work with someone that's going to do less for me. So I see that a lot. Again, I know what it actually means, but I'm advocating and no one wants less, so they won't pay for that more. You just opened up a whole new podcast.
00:46:25
Speaker
conversation right here. sorry no this is this i It's fantastic. I do advocate for options when presenting back to clients. And so I want to just test this with you. yeah I think if you come at me and you say, we have this idea, we have $100,000 to do it, can you help us?
00:46:44
Speaker
that it is my obligation to give you a $100,000 solution. That here for $100,000, this is what we could do. This is what it looks like. Here is the goal and the intent, the outcome that we think we can hit that you said you were trying to hit. And if you think a little bit bigger, we also can do this. This means we can get more companion shots and I think we can get further to the goal that you're trying to hit if you spend more. And if you really want to try to hit for the fences, we can offer you this. This is crazy. we It's with's double what you want to pay, but here's why we're presenting it to you. And we just want to make sure you know what's possible. So I advocate for that. I've done that. I've been doing that for a couple of years now. um Are you talking about that? Are you talking about that's not good anymore?
00:47:34
Speaker
No, I think I think it's a dance because even the language you were just using was a little bit different than some of the decks I see, which is like, oh, for $100,000, we can get, you know, a red scarlet. ah For $150,000, we can get, you know, an Ari Veracam or something like that. And it's like, I don't care.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah, I see. Yes. 100 percent do not get into that. This is not time and materials conversation. This is a value conversation. It's indicating value of product in a math that I don't need to justify to someone. But what you're kind of dictating as like, yeah, resources equal objectives and just tying that. So let's just very, very high level sort of like tying this. It's like, OK, well, these are all made makeup numbers, right?
00:48:25
Speaker
So if you approach the client and you you say, you know, really just kind of roughly speaking, it's like, this is what it takes to achieve your objective foundationally. We believe, you know, this range, this this value will pay our people. It'll cover pre-production, post-production, and you'll be very happy with achieving your goals.
00:48:46
Speaker
One step up, if we add value, we can amplify those objectives. ah Maybe things you weren't thinking about, like we can do cross promotions in social media, we can do cut downs, we can do like, give me more, don't show me what's less, because we probably want those things.
00:49:03
Speaker
But put it up against our goals, our brief, our objective. Don't make it a quality conversation. And that's what I get a lot. is it's It'll be great. It'll be less great. And it's like, no, it'll be what we need. And it would be more than we need. Tell me that.
00:49:20
Speaker
Kevin Knudsen, this has been a meats and potatoes conversation. Exactly what I was hoping for. You've been informative, you've been insightful, you've been generous and candid. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this very important client side point of view. It was a real pleasure. Thank you, James. Yeah, we're going to have to have you back. Yeah, happy to return.
00:49:45
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S dot com.