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Should Your Production Company Go Union Signatory?
209 Plays1 year ago
Ever wondered about the perks and challenges of becoming a union signatory? Dive into our latest episode where Melissa Purcell, a Business Agent for IATSE 488, sheds light on the myriad advantages, from tapping into a reservoir of top-tier talent to landing projects that demand union involvement. But with great benefits come responsibilities. Discover the intricacies of union regulations, the commitment to fair pay, and the reasons why going signatory could be the best move for your business.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:07
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kevlis. Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning in to the show. Okay.
Evolution of Small Film Companies
00:00:32
Speaker
Imagine for a moment a fledgling commercial film production company. It starts small. Maybe it's just a few friends with a camera and a passion. They land a client or two and craft ads that hold raw, undeniable creativity and charm.
00:00:48
Speaker
Then, like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, they are transformed by big budget clients who empower them to really hone their craft and make spots that shine. This is the story of many commercial film production companies.
Union Signatory Decisions
00:01:02
Speaker
But here's the million dollar budget question.
00:01:06
Speaker
When does our crawling caterpillar become a butterfly of a company by growing its wings and embracing the bird's eye view of a union? When does it say, hey, we're not just dabbling in commercials, we're forced to be reckoned with and we want to play in the big leagues?
00:01:21
Speaker
Becoming a union signatory isn't just about slapping on a badge. It's about transitioning. It's about stepping onto a larger stage with brighter lights and clearer rules. Unions offer stability, structure, and that seal of professionalism. But of course, with growth comes challenges. Like a butterfly adjusting to its new wings, there's the learning curve. We need to understand the do's and don'ts.
00:01:46
Speaker
how to navigate union guidelines, and balance cost with the undeniable benefits. So, how does a flourishing production company know it's time to join the union flight? What will it gain and what will it sacrifice? And most importantly, how will this metamorphosis change its essence?
Meet Melissa Purcell
00:02:03
Speaker
To navigate this transformative journey, we have an industry guide here to help us.
00:02:08
Speaker
Melissa Purcell is the Northern Business Agent for IOTC 488. She's seen many a caterpillar transform into a beautiful butterfly across the Pacific Northwest, and she's here to shed light on the intricacies of this evolution. Melissa, welcome to the show. Thanks, James. Nice to be here. Have you ever heard of IOTC being called a butterfly before? No. Do you think it's accurate? I think it's a nice metaphor.
00:02:35
Speaker
It works for me because it describes this change that production companies go through. I've seen it so many times where they're growing, growing, growing, and they get to a point where they have to ask themselves or somebody asked them, how about becoming a union signatory? And they grapple with that, the cost of it, the changes of that. And so I want the show to demystify this. I want the show to kind of just remove the curtain and see what it takes to do that transition and not to be afraid of it.
00:03:05
Speaker
to embrace it and, you know, get all the benefits of it, too. So hopefully we can do that. But before we get into all of that, I know you a bit, Melissa, but I actually don't know how you got into the
Melissa's Film Industry Journey
00:03:15
Speaker
film business. What was your start into this whole thing? Sure. So I got into the business probably about 30, a little over 30 years ago here in Seattle. And this is back before Vancouver, B.C. had been built up prior to state film incentives. This is back during Movies of the Week on network TV.
00:03:35
Speaker
and Showtime and HBO were sort of the only cable streamers, as they're called now, and we occasionally got those movies as well. Martha Coolidge actually directed a film that was here, and they were looking for set dressers, and that was my first job.
00:03:52
Speaker
And then from there, I pretty quickly moved into LEAD within the Set Deck department and started working with a bunch of people. That was back when films came up from LA mostly, so made connections and started doing location work through the various production designers or decorators that I was working with across the country. Eventually moved into being a
00:04:12
Speaker
Propmaster, I liked being on set, was kind of tired of being offset in the lead position. Eventually got into the commercial world,
Challenges of Union Membership
00:04:19
Speaker
which is pretty big here in Seattle at the time. There was a lot of car spots that came here for the mountains and the ocean and the beautiful country roads that we have. So it's kind of been an evolution of being a Propmaster on features, on location, being away from home for
00:04:37
Speaker
three months at a time to sticking around home and designing local commercial and corporate and national spots that are here to assisting other people on their designs. And what was your moment of metamorphosis from from Caterpillar to Butterfly? Did you always go into the union? You know, I knew about the union very early on because when I got into the industry here in Seattle, there was lots of conversations about
00:05:06
Speaker
the union and which union we should join because there was a few of them then. And we certainly had the IATSI Local 15, which is our stagecraft local. Occasionally, a film would come here, a feature, and it would be a union show. And you had to be a member of the stagecraft in order to work it. And so at some point, an IATSI rep came into the area and recognized what was happening and helped charter Local 48. That was, again, sort of approximately 30
00:05:35
Speaker
31 years ago, I believe. Did you fear what it
Union Representation Differences
00:05:39
Speaker
would be like to become a union member? Did you have concerns or were you just all in? No, I, again, from early on, the people that I worked with that came up from L.A. for work always told me, you know, if you ever have the opportunity to join, by all means, join. So that was sort of the word on the street as it were, which is kind of different from right now, I think.
00:05:59
Speaker
We don't have as much work coming up from LA at least as far as feature episodic in the northwest So you don't have that outsiders view coming straight out of LA so I was all in but it did take me a while to actually do it I was not one of the very first people it probably took me a year or so before I joined and have you worked mostly in commercial or narrative and
00:06:22
Speaker
I would say in the last 15 years, it's mostly commercial and corporate. Prior to that, it was mostly narrative with some commercial.
00:06:31
Speaker
My observation is that you see a lot more union representation on the narrative stuff than you do on the commercial. But maybe I don't have that right.
Union Signatory and AICP Contract
00:06:40
Speaker
Is that? Well, it's true to some degree. It's very true in Washington state. And that ties back to what our incentive program is. We are, I believe, possibly the only state incentive in the country that requires for approved projects, they must pay health and welfare benefits to their crews and their actors.
00:06:59
Speaker
So that automatically means that probably 98% of the state incentive approved projects, which are all narrative, end up going union. It's a good, it was an inventive, smart thing to do, I think. Explain to me a little bit about what IOTC 48 or IOTC in general, as it relates to commercial productions, what does it do and what areas does it represent?
00:07:23
Speaker
Well, there's the AICP contract, which covers all corporate and commercial work. Association of independent commercial producers.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yes. So, you know, this could be anything that is web content. It could be a video screen and a car dealership of beautiful details of the car. It could be a network commercial. It could be a corporate presentation that's outward facing for a convention, any of those things. And AICP's role in this whole thing is kind of an intermediary. Is that the right way to describe their role?
00:07:56
Speaker
It's more like an association, I want to say. So they are the collection of producers that negotiate the contract and that production companies belong to. Okay, so then for those unfamiliar, explain what it means to be a union signatory.
Organizing for Union Benefits
00:08:17
Speaker
What does it entail for the production company?
00:08:18
Speaker
Sure. So, signatory status means that you have signed with the IEA and are committing to doing all of the work that you do under a union contract. So, getting to that point where your production company is
00:08:36
Speaker
getting enough larger jobs where it makes sense to do that is certainly a decision that has to be made. You don't jump right into signatory status. Some companies might get organized. So this is one way that the IATC certainly ends up with union work for Cruz is that there'll be a job in any region and perhaps that job is non-union.
00:08:59
Speaker
But let's say it's a car spot and there's quite a few crew on it and there's quite a few days of filming and it seems to have quite a large budget and the crew is questioning why it isn't you and would like to have their benefits. That's when you go through the process essentially of the crew asking to organize that particular job and then once there's a majority of the crew that wants that to happen,
00:09:24
Speaker
then it's my job in the internationals to go in and speak with the producer and say, look, everybody wants their benefits. That's when a job essentially flips. And that's where I think a lot of companies have concern. That's not the way that people want to become signatories, but it is one of the ways that it does happen.
00:09:40
Speaker
All right, what are the thresholds here? So what are the thresholds for that you see? And there's, you know, obviously it changes and there's all kinds of variables in here, but commonly
Budget Flexibility in Productions
00:09:49
Speaker
what is the threshold for a company, a production company size and the kind of budgets that they're working with where they start getting that kind of questioning and organizing from crew or the attention of IOTC or where there is certain budget projects that
00:10:07
Speaker
where everyone says, okay, now that you're working at this level, the expectation is that everyone's paying health and welfare. There's a living wages being done and anything short of that is unacceptable. What are these thresholds? You know, I have to be honest with you here. Coming not from production, I have not dove into what that level is other than really recognizing who the clients are really. So it goes back to sometimes the agency and who the client is.
00:10:36
Speaker
I also look to see if you're talking about an airline or a professional sports team or a car company, anybody that already has union agreements with their employees, then I question why they are getting away without using union labor for their spots.
00:10:54
Speaker
I will say that there is a low budget threshold in the AICP, which many companies don't realize. So the low budget commercials are defined as those which have a single day production cost that does not exceed $150,000 nor an aggregate cost of more than $700,000.
00:11:11
Speaker
So I don't think a lot of people understand that there is a threshold that is reasonable. And what that means is for the low budget is that all of the contract still stands, but wage rates are negotiable when you're under those thresholds.
00:11:27
Speaker
So there's flexibility there for them. So if they want, they have the intent, they want to be a signatory, but they're concerned about the rates that they have to pay because they think they're going to have to pay, you know, Super Bowl commercial rates or something like that. That that's not true. Yes. There's more flexibility in the wage rates. Correct. And, you know, certainly some crew will be fine with that and other crew aren't interested in changing their rates, but many are happy to be adjusting their rates if they know that they're getting their health and welfare benefits paid.
Benefits of Being a Signatory
00:11:57
Speaker
And you know, one of the other things that I hear from local production companies too is it comes a point where local production companies or smaller as we say throughout the country, you know, have ongoing relationships with the crew in their areas. And they've worked with these individuals for years upon years and they would like to help them. They know that they have health and welfare benefits. So there comes a certain point where people
00:12:18
Speaker
They have friendships and relationships with these individuals and they know that they would like to do it. They just don't know if they can afford to do it. Becoming a signatory company certainly costs more money. Doing a union job certainly adds cost to your spot. That circles back, of course, to the ad agencies and the client and recognizing when the right job is coming your way that you can bid accordingly.
00:12:44
Speaker
That's a tough one, right? Because there are so many brands that aren't union, you know, these companies that aren't union at all, and they don't think about union. And when they put out RFPs or any kind of spots that they want done, whether it's through an agency or direct to a production company, they're trying to get the lowest price. And so there may be actively not interested in union rates, because that would increase the cost of the spots, right?
00:13:06
Speaker
Sure. I mean, I think the ad world changed probably 15, 20 years ago in terms of budgets and those high end budgets and everybody's had to adjust and it becomes, you know, I think lots of people would agree that it's kind of a race to the bottom at times these days. And occasionally you have these larger signatory companies out of LA or at times New York that are still plugging along.
00:13:29
Speaker
And everybody else is a pretty smaller company, but even those larger, signatory companies will at times try and bid something lower, I believe, to really try and bring in a client, right? So there's all kinds of situations that production companies are having to adjust for in order to keep getting work. So let's say a production company convinces their client to have the budget to be a union shoot. Can they be a union shoot once for this production and then not for the next one? Can they pick and choose?
00:13:59
Speaker
Sure. Well, you know, this is the thing is that in an ideal world, you become a signatory company because a signatory means that you are also getting better rates than you would be if you were just doing a singular job, right? The way that some people end up doing a singular union spot is really using a signatory company. Uh, so there are companies out there that will work as service agreements to a company that is not a signatory, you know, for instance,
00:14:28
Speaker
We have state lottery jobs here that we and the crews were pretty insistent should be union spots. We were also pretty insistent that local companies should be doing those spots for the most part. And so a lot of the local companies certainly are not at the threshold to be able to become signatories, but they can use a service company in order to do the state lottery jobs as a union.
00:14:51
Speaker
I'm glad you brought that up. As you know, we've done that together. I've been with a production company that did that. We weren't a signatory, but we were able to use a service agent. It was fantastic. It was really, really a good option as a way to kind of enter into the signatory
Myths About Union Signatories
00:15:03
Speaker
world.
00:15:03
Speaker
I think that's what's useful is that it also gives companies the experience of how to do a union shoot because a lot of people haven't done it before and that makes them pretty uncomfortable. So being able to do a one-off helps, but at the same time, whenever we organize a company and allow for a one-off, then they go somewhere else in the country and still aren't unions. So it doesn't really help the crews overall.
00:15:30
Speaker
You talked about the benefits of becoming a signatory in that the crew that we build relationships with and know and trust have a healthier standard of living, right? As a result of higher wages and we care about each other. So that's a good thing. So that's a primary benefit.
00:15:45
Speaker
What are some other benefits of being a signatory? Like, for instance, what comes to mind for me is, is there that badge that you can say we're a signatory and therefore you are invited to jobs, to bid on jobs and get proposals for jobs that you otherwise wouldn't be able to if you weren't signatory? Does IOTC or any other union group try to convert brands and marketers and agencies so that they put that as a requirement in their RFPs or anything else that they're putting out?
00:16:14
Speaker
Well, those are two different things. I mean, the conversation about having the union, having a conversation with agencies or with clients has certainly crossed my mind. I've just been a business agent for almost five years. So it's still pretty new to me. And that's definitely something that comes into my mind is getting into conversations with clients or agencies to have this conversation.
00:16:38
Speaker
so that they will seek production companies or accept bids that are budgeted for union crews. I think in terms of the benefit is certainly that I've talked to production managers who say union commercials just make the job easier because I have a roadmap.
00:16:59
Speaker
I don't have to make it up myself. Now granted, unions have always sort of set the standard of any industry and in particular, I would say the film industry. So there's a lot of things that still happen on non-union jobs that are the same as union, how many hours between meals and what is your turnaround time and items like that.
00:17:17
Speaker
Let me ask you this. When a crew is trying to flip a production and organize and have the shoot be a signatory, do you arm the producers, the production company owner to go back to the client, whether it's an agency or direct to a brand information and the speaking points and the why that they would need to allocate more budget from the client and, you know, in order to make the case so that the production company doesn't have to just eat that cost themselves?
00:17:47
Speaker
You know, that's really up to the production company. I know that some production companies certainly do that, but that's out of my purview. That's the thing is that our purview is not with the agency or the client. Ours is only with the production companies. You know, it's in the hands of the production company to go back to their client if they feel that they can and have this conversation.
00:18:06
Speaker
But you don't like here's your one sheet take this back and tell him why or do you apply to apply a little bit of muscle maybe on the other side to help persuade the client to understand this i mean i certainly give me no points as to why i mean crew wants their benefits and you know this is a national airline or this is a you know american made
00:18:27
Speaker
car company or this is a professional sports team and your members are union members. So where the athletes are union members. So I use those kinds of talking points and whether I doubt they take that information back to their client or the agency, right? Okay, let's debunk some misconceptions about being a union signatory. What are some things that you hear that you just want to totally take off the table?
00:18:50
Speaker
I would say that it's not that it's too expensive. It does cost more money, but I don't think it's realistic. I think having a production company understand that there is a low budget threshold helps vastly. I think understanding that they can use service providers so that they are not becoming a signatory, but that's only allowed for a certain amount of time, really. I would say what really is important is
00:19:15
Speaker
feeling like you can reach out and talk to a local business agent of the IOTC, not feeling like you can't pick up the phone and talk to me and then feel like you have a target on your back. For me, it's really about building relationships with production companies.
00:19:30
Speaker
And even when we're trying to organize a production company, I'm trying to have that conversation with the producer in that moment saying, look, your client is this, your crew is vast, you have multiple days of filming, and this really should be a job where you're paying health and welfare and retirement for these individuals, just like the client does for their staff.
00:19:55
Speaker
I'm so glad you brought up that last one. That's the most important misconception to me, that you can't talk to an agent, that you can't explore and you can't have a discussion.
Promoting Open Dialogue
00:20:03
Speaker
So let's say I have a production, I just landed a $500,000 job. But the budget's tight, they're asking for multiple spots or whatever. And I really want to have it be a union shoot. And I call you and I say, Melissa, this is, you know, we got something that could be really fun to do and make it union. But I'm not quite sure if I can make it happen, make the dollars work.
00:20:24
Speaker
Can you walk me through that? And then you would be game for that conversation. And if I chose not to do it, if I couldn't make the money work, I couldn't get the client to give us more budget, it would reduce my margins below 20%, whatever it might be. Would you then target me? Would you, would you say, would you understand? Would you let it go for the next conversation? Would it be a start of a relationship?
00:20:48
Speaker
I think it's the start of a relationship, I really do. What people also need to understand, maybe this goes back to that debunking, and this is true for production companies, for agencies, and even for crew to understand, it's not me that's making the decision to organize a job.
00:21:03
Speaker
It's not the international that's making a decision to organize a job. It's the crew that are on that particular job that are deciding that they feel they want their health and welfare benefits and their retirement and that this particular job should be paying it because of what they see once they're on the job. Does that make sense?
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good distinction for sure. And I think in a lot of ways, that's the right one. And hopefully you're, you know, you're doing your part to represent them and, you know, and organize and all that kind of stuff. But I guess for me, it's sometimes you a producer production company is proactively trying to make it happen even before the crew organizes themselves.
00:21:41
Speaker
Sure. I mean, I would welcome those conversations. I would love to have that conversation. And if somebody came to me, I mean, here's the thing. I only have the ability to do so much because these are the ICP is a national contract, right? So I would have a conversation with this local person who I may or may not know, but I.
00:21:58
Speaker
probably do in a smaller market like this, and then I would go to the international and see what could be done and do my best to be able to make something happen for them because they are reaching out. If for some reason that couldn't happen, I guess what I was getting to earlier is that if crew wanted to still organize that job,
00:22:18
Speaker
I would have to explain to crew what I already went through with that particular person and basically probably let them know that they don't have the money because we tried, right? I think that, I mean, that's, that is a relationship. That's a fantastic, you know, everybody's being transparent. Everybody's working with good intentions. Everyone's trying and hopefully you get there. But if for some valid reason you don't, you're still continuing on. The reality is,
00:22:43
Speaker
If we're being really honest about this, a lot of production companies are hiding from you, right? They're hiding from union and they don't want to raise their hand. They don't want to be seen at all. And in fact, they're walking in the shadows. So I would love to see that change. I would love to see production companies just call and engage and not worry about having, you know, by being seen that then now there's the pressure to always do it. Hopefully that happens, but there are, there's no requirement.
Quality and Efficiency of Union Crews
00:23:10
Speaker
You're not going to be all of a sudden
00:23:12
Speaker
Public enemy number one if you tried and it didn't work. Yeah I mean, I think everybody needs to take baby steps and that's you know circling back to what you said at the beginning of the show and so I think picking up the phone and contacting your Local business agent or the international and trying to figure out, you know, can I make this work is a good first step And even if it doesn't work on that particular job, like you said, you know, we start building these relationships I agree I mean look around the
00:23:39
Speaker
Country these days, you know, unions are being formed left and right and people are standing up and saying, you know, after the pandemic, this isn't enough money or I need my health and welfare benefits. So yeah, I would love to see the industry on that same wavelength.
00:23:55
Speaker
of companies and agencies also really understanding, hey, we want to use union crews. We know how they work. We have a contract in place, so I'm going to hire production companies that are signatories. But it's still a battle, I think, just due to advertising budgets these days. There's also just a lot of, to some degree, I think education with some entities, things like state agencies,
00:24:22
Speaker
or even federal agencies, right? You think that there's these laws in place that you would have to use companies that pay health and welfare benefits for certain spots, but that's not necessarily the case. So that's another angle that sometimes on a political spot, for instance, if our crews are on a political spot and they aren't getting their health and welfare benefits paid, well, that's an easy call.
00:24:45
Speaker
Hello, you know, you need to be using union crews for your election spots. Of course, it's much easier to do for Democratic candidates than it is Republican. But again, it just goes back to who this is and what makes the most sense for the crews and through unionize.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, I would like to see the cast and crew crew, especially though the really create firmer lines around working in productions that are signatory. This is why if crew, especially the really seasoned, talented
00:25:19
Speaker
you know, the highest quality crew, the ones that know it the best can articulate the increase in quality of the production to the client and get the client to pay it for it because there's value to the client. You're getting a better spot. You're getting all of the things that you want, whether it's, you know, wardrobe or whether it's, you know, equipment and or lighting or whether it's set design, whatever it might be, you're going to get better quality because you're getting better people. And that's worth paying for because it
00:25:47
Speaker
better quality will help you sell your product more. If that kind of logic train could be articulated more often and better across all the players, I think that would really make a big difference. And that's that I want to see that conversation. I absolutely agree. And I think that you also have with union crews more efficiency because they know how to do the work. So it's more streamlined and you're not having to pay additional, you know,
00:26:12
Speaker
you're not taking as long to do your work because you have a very efficient, very highly trained, experienced crew. I think one of the problems again is quality of work unfortunately doesn't mean the same thing as it once did now that a lot of spots or a lot of work is a four by four inch screen on a computer.
Training Opportunities for Union Members
00:26:31
Speaker
So I think some of that conversation is really dependent upon what is the spot being made for and where is it going to be seen and what size screen is it going to be seen on.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, you know, again, I just think that some agencies and some clients are also much more creative than others and have budgets to be more creative. And that's the fun work that production companies want to do is the really exciting, interesting, beautiful spots that absolutely, you know,
00:27:00
Speaker
has the quality that union crews can bring to it. Union crews also have more training than non-union crews. We have all kinds of educational opportunity for union members once they join. So the idea behind being a union crew member is that you have greater experience than the non-union crews.
00:27:20
Speaker
Is there a basic guideline formula about the cost of a production being non-union versus a union shoot?
Cost Differences: Union vs Non-union
00:27:28
Speaker
Is it 10%, 20%? You know, there isn't. And I would say that the IA shies away from trying to really figure out exactly what that is. But I would say that it's approximately 20 to 30% additional.
00:27:44
Speaker
And people should also understand that wages are probably, I mean, the wage scale minimums in the contract are most likely lower than what they're already paying. So commercials in particular almost historically always pay higher than the AICP contract minimums. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Street rates versus scale rates are very different, but they are not paying the health and retirement.
00:28:13
Speaker
which they should be, which everybody should be contributing to that. That should start from the very top with the brand client, whether it's through an agency or direct. Yeah. I mean, if, you know, in these smaller regions, you know, if union crews had, you know, 75% of their work as union, their lives would be a lot different today. For 30 years of work in the industry, they'd have retirement. They would have not had to have self-paying healthcare. You know, it just, it would make a world of difference to crew.
00:28:41
Speaker
Let's talk about that from a crew perspective for a second. So a crew person, they don't own the production company, but they work in the business and they're doing commercial stuff and they are 1099-ing it all the way through and they're trying to make ends meet and maybe they're getting good rate, but they have no, there's no security, right? There's no, nothing is going into retirement. They don't have any healthcare, anything like that. What's their journey in becoming a union crew member and how does their system work?
00:29:08
Speaker
Well, let's back up for a minute because you mentioned the word 1099. So that's two very different things, right? So some production companies, when they are first starting out, for whatever reason, maybe it's lack of knowledge about labor law.
00:29:24
Speaker
or maybe they just feel like they can't afford it and maybe they can get away with it, but they will treat their crew as independent contractors. And in this state, and I would say all states really, but again, there are state laws and there are federal labor laws that we are not independent contractors.
00:29:40
Speaker
So asking crews to invoice for a job and be paid as a 1099 is a complete misclassification because one of the definitions of being an employee is if the employer tells you where to be and when.
Legal Issues in Crew Classification
00:29:54
Speaker
So, you know, if say you have a month to shop costumes for a job and you aren't going to be on the set or on the job, they just want you to do the shopping, get it done within a month.
00:30:07
Speaker
That might fit the role of an independent contractor. But if you are a costumer and you have a week of prep and two days to shoot, and they're telling you when you need to have production meetings and when you're going to be filming and where you're going to be, then that's an employee.
00:30:22
Speaker
even people that actually are independent contractors, it's my understanding that employers are still responsible if you're injured through labor and industries. So I think that early on in people's careers, they might accept 1099 work and misclassification and as they gain knowledge about why that is wrong and why it can be extremely unsafe financially or physically,
00:30:46
Speaker
They stop accepting those jobs or they start explaining to producers, you know, this isn't legal. This is not the way that I accept work. Can I be put on payroll, you know, trying to have the conversation with them. So that's, you know, that's misclassification, right?
00:31:02
Speaker
Union is different. Of course, every union job is going to be on a payroll service. I think that's another conversation to have with production companies is to make sure that they understand that they can use payroll services. And most payroll services that are in this industry already know how to pay union wages and benefits. So using a quality payroll service with experience is going to also help when you haven't had union experience. But from the crew side,
00:31:29
Speaker
I like to think that it's the same as when I started out, but it really isn't anymore.
Benefits of Joining the Union
00:31:34
Speaker
I just think that not everybody understands why it's worth going union. And lots of people might not even know about the IOTC. So that's a lot of the time that I've been spending since I became business agent is just making sure people understand our industry and that the IOTC exists.
00:31:49
Speaker
and who we are and why it's worthwhile to join. I think for crew members, aside from having the opportunity to have health and welfare and retirement benefits, but it's also the ability to engage with the local union and the business of the union and electing their officers and their executive boards or being part of those executive boards in order to make business decisions for the local
00:32:12
Speaker
having access to jobs that are union and knowing about them prior to everybody else, having access to training, et cetera. If I'm a crew member and I decide to join a union, I'm part of IOTC 488 now. Can I take a job that isn't that anymore or am I restricted to just union jobs?
00:32:31
Speaker
You know, that's the tough one. Yes, we are certainly allowed to work jobs that are not union. But this is also part of the issue with why there might not be as many union signatory companies anymore. Because if production companies can hire union crews on a non-union job and those members are going to take that work,
00:32:50
Speaker
then what's the difference is what some production companies are gonna say and then the signatories companies are gonna say you know what's happening here this isn't you know. So i think there really needs to be a rebuilding of like you said relationships and conversations i would very much like to think that people want the cruise in these industries to
Job Flexibility for Union Members
00:33:08
Speaker
be able to sustain themselves and have the benefits they need so it's a yes.
00:33:13
Speaker
You are allowed to work non-union. Does that help the cause of signatory companies in union crews? No. And I would say that certainly in cities like LA and New York, you will have union members that won't accept union work because they don't want to, you know, add to the problem.
00:33:28
Speaker
And what about from the production company side, if I decide to use IOTC 488 for crew, does that mean I have to use Teamsters? Sure. So this is, I mean, a good example is all the work stoppages right now, right? With the WGA and SAG-AFTRA.
00:33:43
Speaker
What does production companies need to understand is that one does not forecast the other in terms of a lot of jobs will already be DGA signatory because the directors are DGA and quite a few will be SAG-AFTRA signatories, but not IOTC signatory. So no, one does not preempt the other. It can, perhaps.
00:34:05
Speaker
with communication amongst the unions. One of the reasons I'm sure that many jobs might be DGA and SAG-AFTRA but not IATSI is the size of the crew versus the two actors and the director in two ADs. It's a different story when you've got 20 IATSI crew at a minimum probably.
00:34:24
Speaker
This has been a really eye-opening conversation.
Rising Trends in Union Strength
00:34:27
Speaker
What initiatives or changes do you think are on the horizon for IOTC that production companies or anything should be aware of? Do you see some trend that people should be paying attention to? You know, I don't in terms of current trends, I think just in terms of
00:34:42
Speaker
Cruz and the IOTC really staying ahead of the game and trying to make certain that they are part of the conversation, certainly with things like what SAG-AFTRA and the WGA are dealing with right now. AI certainly is a conversation. And where is the technology going to go, just like when we switched from film to digital?
00:35:02
Speaker
how fast are things going to change, and how do we progress with them, and how do we still stay relevant so that we can sustain ourselves on union jobs? This is probably more hopeful thinking than actual forecasting, but I see on the horizon a rise in unions. You know, the talk is increasing, certainly. The rhetoric is increasing about organizing and the strength of
00:35:28
Speaker
uniting labor. And I would love to see more of that across all sectors and industries, in particular for film though. And so I would see the strength of unions rising in the horizon.
00:35:43
Speaker
And hopefully that clients, whether brands or agencies, would recognize the importance of that. I have this kind of philosophy that everything needs to be balanced in size in order for that checks and balances to be good. If you want to have big major corporations, then you have to have big major labor.
00:36:02
Speaker
and you have to have big major government if you want small government or small labor then you have to have small corporations they have to be the same size so that we check each other and keep each other in balance with equal amount of power and for a long time now for decades i think you have not had that equal power and as i look down the horizon i think that there's going to be an increase in that i don't know if you share that perspective
Diverse Sectors in IATSE
00:36:24
Speaker
or not.
00:36:24
Speaker
Oh, absolutely, I do. I mean, I think that we are certainly seeing that very much this year and in more recent last few years, and it's only getting stronger. How much we are seeing that within the film industry, you know, we're starting to see that certainly with the WG and SAG-AFTRA right now. Yeah, I would like to very much think that corporations and companies and clients will start to agree. Again, you know, capitalism is its own, you know,
00:36:54
Speaker
For some reason, everybody doesn't understand that when everybody wins, everybody wins. And having that conversation and making sure that everybody is lifted up when the companies are succeeding is, I think, a socially responsible and just way to do business. Absolutely. And I would like to see more of that. Have you seen any numbers that would suggest that IOTC, for instance, is increasing its membership or is it not?
00:37:20
Speaker
I would say that on a national level, they are indeed increasing their numbers. Absolutely. You have to remember also that Ayazi is not just the film industry. It's also stage theater, live events, trade show. It humps us all kinds of things. But yes, a membership is definitely on the rise. What do you think the most rewarding aspect of your role is in
Advocating for Union Benefits
00:37:40
Speaker
all this?
00:37:40
Speaker
You know, I have just always been somebody that really does believe in getting in to fix something that isn't working and trying to engage others to do the same. If something you are unhappy with it, then what are you going to do to try and change that? And how are you going to reach out to others to have them help? So I would say that just having conversations with individuals and trying to explain
00:38:05
Speaker
you know, what the union is, why people deserve to have their benefits, that nobody really ever, I mean, this is the unfortunate part, people don't give you things, you have to ask for things, right? People don't automatically get raises, I suppose, on occasion, but generally you have to ask for them, you know, you negotiate your wage, so why not speak up to say you want your health and welfare benefits?
00:38:27
Speaker
So it's all that sort of conversation of wanting and enjoying to talk with crews to say, you know, you are relevant. You can speak up and together you have a bigger voice than just individually. This has been a fantastic conversation, Melissa. Thank you for being so kind of candid and honest and kind of just talking it through versus kind of giving a company line on this, I think.
Podcast Conclusion
00:38:50
Speaker
It represents the opportunity for either crew or production companies to engage with you and to figure out how they can make this transformation, this metamorphosis, one might say, into kind of that next level of professionalism and how that would benefit them, the crew and the clients. And so we will revisit this in some time. But I want to say thank you so much for being on the show and having this discussion with us.
00:39:16
Speaker
Well, thanks James. It's been great and I hope I covered enough and it all sort of comes together for you. We'll see what people say in the comments after we post it.
00:39:25
Speaker
Excellent. And I do think, you know, people need to understand across the country that they too can pick up the phone and call their local IATC, you know, business agent and have these conversations. I like to believe that relationship building and honest conversation does lead you somewhere. And so if a production company or crew member, whether in the Pacific Northwest or anywhere else in North America, I imagine, were to want to start this, where was the first place that they should go? They should call their business agent. They should call AICP. What's the first thing they should do?
00:39:53
Speaker
You know, they could do either. I mean, they could, if they just are curious to find out some information directly from the I.A., I mean, the international has a website that has all of the locals, a directory of the locals that people can utilize. But I suspect that they also can get some information from the ICP as well. Melissa, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks, James. Take care.
00:40:18
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S dot com.