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Episode 297: Sonia Weiser is Looking for a Hobby
212 Plays3 years ago
Sonia Weiser (@weischoice) is a freelancer and the founder of the Opportunities of the Week newsletter. Sponsor: West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing
Social Media: @CNFPod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Training
00:00:01
Speaker
It's not a time of year, you're getting on the treadmill or something. You might even be hiring a personal trainer. But if your writing needs a personal trainer or a boost, that little something, something in your corner, maybe you're working on a book, an essay, a query, a book proposal. If you're ready to level up, email me, Brendan at BrendanOmero.com, and we'll start a dialogue. I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go.
00:00:27
Speaker
I cannot be around all of this, just like serenity. It is too much. So yeah, so that's how I live. It's this inconstant, trembling anxiety.
Podcast Focus and Guest Introduction
00:00:44
Speaker
Hey, this is the Creative Nonfiction Pocket, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going? You doing dishes? You walking that dog?
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah. Sonia Weiser is here. She's at wise choice. W E I S C H O I C E. It just dawned on me right now. Like literally right now that it is at wise choice, not we as choice. I could have sworn it was we as choice. I'm like, that's an interesting Twitter handle, but turns out it's the first four letters of her last name.
00:01:28
Speaker
she's a freelancer and a person behind the opportunities of the week newsletter where freelancers can go and find out who's asking for what and who's paying for what she does all the work so you don't have to you lazy son of a bitch i'm sorry it's the whiskey talking listen it was either get on the spin bike or drink
Supporting the Podcast and MFA Promotion
00:01:48
Speaker
whiskey
00:01:48
Speaker
It's called being well-rounded CNFers. This is a fun conversation a little more freewheeling than your typical CNF pod Sonia brought out a different kind of energy and I found a way to surf that wave and I think we did it. It was a good time
00:02:06
Speaker
It was a good time, man. I want to remind you to keep the conversation going on Twitter, at cnfpod or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram. You can support the show by becoming a glorious paid patron, patreon.com slash cnfpod. As I say, the show is free, but it ain't cheap. Members get transcript chances to ask questions of future guests, special pods in development. Yeah, good stuff. Coaching.
00:02:34
Speaker
Who knows go shop around? Free ways to support the show you can leave a kind review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify You can go to the thing click on a couple dots below the logo and you can just rate the show just easy peasy Just boom five stars Written reviews for our little podcast that could go a long way toward validating the show for the wayward CNF or that's an apple for that We stalled out for a long time and it'd be great to ramp those up again and make make a nice push
00:03:04
Speaker
into the, I don't know, let's get up to 200. We're just past 100, but 200's the next milestone, let's do it. Let's go, let's go. Show notes, in my up to 11 monthly newsletter can be found at printedomare.com. Once a month, no spam, as far as I can tell, you can't beat it. Someone out there might, but if there is, I haven't been able to find it. Maybe George Saunders, his can beat it, but that's it.
00:03:33
Speaker
Sport for the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan Colleges, low residency MFA in creative writing, now in its 10th year? 11th? 11th I think at this point. This affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio and a strong sense of community.
00:03:49
Speaker
Recent CNF faculty include Randy Millings, Noble Jeremy Jones, and CNF Pod alum Sarah Einstein. There's also fiction and poetry tracks where you could learn from Ashley Bryant Phillips and Jacinta Townsend as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. So no matter your discipline, man, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia, Wesleyan, college's MFA in creative writing right in the heart of Appalachia. MFA.wvwc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
Freelancing Challenges and Personal Fulfillment
00:04:22
Speaker
Sonya Weiser talks about a lot of stuff. Can't really put this episode in a neat category on the CNF pod shelf. You know, it's, I don't know. I hope you check out her newsletter and see her on Twitter for some grade A snark. At we is choice, I'm sorry. At wise choice. Why, why wait? Why wait? Here's our conversation.
00:04:59
Speaker
as has been known to happen rarely but it has happened where I'm like oh shit we've been talking about cool stuff and I forgot to record yeah I've lost interviews before and it fucking sucks cause you have to like yeah
00:05:13
Speaker
You have to use like half the interview you have and just like that's not even the most interesting part. But then you're like, well, I guess Isaac Mizrahi said something kind of cool in the last two minutes. Yeah. Build up from there. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, given that it's the start of the year, like how do you process the start of the year resolution wise, goals wise? How do you process it?
00:05:41
Speaker
The start of the year is always very weird because everyone's always down with resolutions and then also secretly making their own resolutions and just not telling people about it.
00:05:53
Speaker
But I feel like it's kind of this habit that we all have of like, reflecting and thinking about what we want to do differently and the same and all that. So I'm one of those people who's like, I don't do resolutions and then also like, planning how I want to do my year. Like I've been kind of keeping track of the things that have made me miserable.
00:06:12
Speaker
Like unofficially keeping track, not like in a journal, but over the past year and trying to take stock of what exactly is in my power and what's not. And I'd become very aware that all of my time has been spent like on more administrative components of journalism. Like I have the newsletter, which takes up most of my time and I'm working with
00:06:37
Speaker
this journalism organization helping them enter contests, and somehow I've segued from being able to call myself a journalist to being able to be like, well, I'm the secretary of journalists, or like, sorry, people are honking outside.
00:06:54
Speaker
So I think this year, one of my big goals is to be able to go back to actually being a journalist, even if it's just a few pieces in total, but get my identity back.
00:07:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I was just gonna say, because it echoes what you wrote about, you know, basically an essay about starting your newsletter, how at first when you, a lot of people solicited you for advice, and all you were essentially doing was helping other people live their best life, and you're like, you kind of got lost in that, and then you made like a frequently asked questions thing to try to extricate yourself from having to constantly
00:07:33
Speaker
Basically give free advice and free counsel to people at the expense of your own personal and professional growth. Yeah, so some of it's my own design in that I do have the financial freedom to help people a little bit more and still, like my bank account won't suffer. But I mean it is.
00:07:55
Speaker
with the newsletter, with helping people, with answering people's DMs about if I know anyone at such and such publication, or do I have time to read your pitch, or have you thought about doing your newsletter this way, or keeping up with all of those, that's pretty much all my time. And you said earlier, you're taking stock of things that make you miserable, and what are some of those things that make you miserable that you're looking to curtail, just through that whole addition by subtraction?
Hobbies, Competition, and Jealousy
00:08:25
Speaker
the fact that I'm not doing anything creative. I'm not like really writing anymore. I'm not really pitching. I'm not that pitching makes me happy. But obviously, like getting stuff accepted makes me happy. And then writing it makes me unhappy. But like, you know, whatever. Yeah. So this year, I'm like, I'm going to be working on my novel every week. I don't know if you saw on Twitter, but I said if I'm if I don't work on my novel during the week after publish the Thursday newsletter on Twitter,
00:08:49
Speaker
And because I'm so precious about like keeping that exclusive, it's making me actually work on my novel. Great. So just doing that, just like trying to find things I enjoy. The fact that I have no hobbies is really depressing. So I've been like trying to figure out what my hobbies would be if I did them or stuff like that. Like the basic tenants of a happy life I'm just trying to like find.
00:09:15
Speaker
Right. And what are you still in that discovery of like, what would that hobby be? Or do you have some that are like, oh, I would like to do that if I can find the time. So I started salsa dancing last year. So hopefully I'll get back to that when COVID lightens up. Yeah. So that was fun. And like, I used to be a super artsy kid and all of that just kind of went away. I don't know when it went away, but like, I stopped doing photography, I stopped painting, I stopped drawing.
00:09:46
Speaker
And you just like slowly segue into this person that you never intended to become, which is like an uncreative blob. So it's like, okay, how do I reclaim the things that I used to enjoy? Like those really artsy things or like writing or like dancing, like just all the things that I can't monetize.
00:10:08
Speaker
Cause I feel like in New York and in freelance world, anything you do, you want to be able to monetize. So it's like, what can I find in my life that has no bearing on my bank account? That is just purely something I find fun. And yeah, and I credit Nicole Byer for inspiring me for that one. Cause on an interview, someone asked her if she would ever make an OnlyFans for her pole dancing. And she was like, no, this is for me. Like, it's not a way to make money. It's just something that's fun. And I was like, oh yeah, I don't have any of that.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, I remember a long time ago just coming out of college where you know you play video games with your friends or whatever and I remember when I was supposed to be like quote-unquote serious about career and whatever that means and giving up
00:10:58
Speaker
playing video games which can be really fun and a way to unplug and I got into my head that if I was going to be ambitious and serious about what it was I was doing then I can't waste my time playing video games I need to be reading and doing writing and hustling and it's only of late that like my wife and I have just gotten back into playing video games we used to play together all the time 15 years ago
00:11:23
Speaker
And so it was like it's like reclaiming that thing that is it is truly just for a fun and to have a have a bottle of wine and or some beers and just play you know Lego Batman on the Wii. It's just for fun.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, like I remember how I haven't played video games in probably over a decade. But like, I remember going to my friend's house and playing Wii Tennis for hours. And it was so much fun. And my boyfriend is a big gamer. I'm like, why the fuck do I not join him? Like, he's invited me. I just say no, because I'm a loser. But like, I'm sure I love it.
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's so important to find those things, but to have fun, to divorce it from the thing that is inextricably tied to what we do. And I think the salsa dancing, for you, I think what's cool about that is that it is something non-monetizable, but also it's physical. And that is so important, too, since we're so chained to our desks and our laptops, wherever those are. So to do something physical like that, work up a sweat,
00:12:28
Speaker
and move in that way is so vital. It's physical and it's non-quantifiable. Like, I run, but I'm keeping track of how far I run and how long I'm running. And, like, it's all of these ways to measure my progress and boost my self-esteem and, like, boost my ego. It's like, oh, I ran that far today. It's like with salsa dancing. It's like, no, the class is the same length regardless of what level I'm at. It has no bearing. Like, I can't write down the numbers. It's just, it is what it is.
00:12:57
Speaker
Yeah, like you can't win salsa dancing. The activity itself is the reward. Right, exactly. And like I used to be a ballet dancer when I was a kid, so of course like I have that mindset going into it of like, I need to be the best. Right. Oh, that's such a competitive. Oh my God, it's the worst.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, I had a conversation a few years ago with a former ballerina, too, and she was dancing in New York, and I was asking her, you know, what separates, you know, the good from the great ballerinas or prima ballerinas or whatever.
00:13:39
Speaker
And given that at a certain level, everyone is very skilled and has a certain degree of requisite skill that everyone has. And she said the ones who were the best were the ones who just kind of like knew themselves as a performer.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I think that really gets to the heart of voice as an artist, and maybe as someone who used to dance like that, and as someone who's a writer, would you say that that's pretty on point, that those who kind of make it, whether it be in the arts or even as a dancer, is the ones who really know who they are? Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot to that. I stopped dancing in high school, so I was never at the point of being
00:14:23
Speaker
doing it for a living or doing it competitively in any way. But I think definitely with writing and especially with freelancers when it's like you have to keep going or you're like no one's gonna pay attention to you or know who you are unless you're like constantly churning out material or being an asshole on Twitter. And I'm somewhere in between those two. Yeah, it is about knowing who you are kind of finding your voice figuring out who
00:14:48
Speaker
you want people to know you as how you want to be perceived. There is almost like a showman aspect to it as well of like, knowing what to post knowing when to post just knowing how to project excellence or self detriment in an excellent way, or not self different self deprecation. But yeah, like you can't be meek and be a journalist or you can't be
00:15:16
Speaker
I don't know if you can be a shy freelancer. I'm sure you can, but I don't know those people because they're shy. Yeah, no kidding. So at what point do you kind of get the writing and the journalism bug?
00:15:34
Speaker
Um, I get jealous really easily. So a lot of it's motivated out of spite. So I tell people that in first grade, my teacher told me I was good at writing. And then ever since then, I was like, well, I guess that's what I'm going to do. Cause I'm definitely someone who does not like to be bad at things to the point where like, if I try it once and I'm not good at it, I just won't do it again, which isn't great. But yeah, someone in first grade said I was good at writing and I was like, fuck, I guess that's what I'll do. Um,
00:16:01
Speaker
So that's what I paid attention to. And that's what I was always best at. And then I went to college thinking I would do photojournalism. And then that summer I had an internship at a nonprofit and they were talking about how American photojournalists just
00:16:21
Speaker
have this innate bias in everything they take. Well, I mean, I guess any photojournalist, not just American photojournalists, but to the detriment of their pictures and to the detriment of accurate reporting. And I was listening to that and I was like, fuck, I don't want to, like, mess this up. Like, I don't want to make everyone in the country mad at me because I took a picture of the wrong thing. I'm also super conflict averse. So I abandoned that idea.
00:16:50
Speaker
and just went back to creative writing and journalism. And yeah, I've been doing that ever since. And what was so what was your first your first gig or a first first win that you were able to parlay and get some momentum? Because I worked at Mental Floss for like three months and they fired me. But during those three months, I built up a lot of clips because it was we're supposed to turn out three stories a day and like I cannot do that. I'm not a fast writer.
00:17:19
Speaker
But in doing that every day for three months, you build up a giant portfolio. And so I was able to send that around. And at the time, people knew mental floss.
00:17:30
Speaker
a running gig with Paste for a while because I sent the editor, they were looking for people and I sent the editor a blog post I'd written on my own site about funny pasta shapes and she was super into it. So I had that going and then I wrote a thing for the hairpin that they published and that kind of like blew up the internet for a hot second. So like it was all these different things combined.
00:17:57
Speaker
that segued into me getting a piece for The Atlantic online. And then once I had that piece, it was like, everyone thought I was good. Everyone thought I was a serious writer. And it just became so much easier to get pitches. I mean, it's not easy to get pitches accepted. I'll never say that. But once I had that, and once I was able to say, like, published in The Atlantic, people are like, oh, she's legit. And also, Mental Floss did give me a verified Twitter account. Okay.
00:18:27
Speaker
which I think is very funny. So that stupidly also helped. But yeah, I think it was just like those initial clips with recognizable names, especially the Atlantic. Then editors were like, Oh, this person can clearly write not knowing how much I've actually like written myself versus how much was edited. But I don't know that seemed to do it.
Career Reflections and Influences
00:18:53
Speaker
Nice, and who are you, what writers, what journalists, could be fiction too, like really inspired you to model yourself after and to help develop your voice? I don't know, because like I said, I'm very motivated by spite, so it's less people that I want to model myself after and more people I want to beat, which is horrible.
00:19:17
Speaker
But like the reason I got the thing in the hairpin was because I saw a girl who I worked with at the time. Her piece was in the hairpin and I was like, fuck her. I need to be in the hairpin. And that was why I pursued it. Like, only reason why I pursued it. I didn't read the hairpin. I was just like, this bitch is not better than me. So and then where does this where does this competitive urge come from?
00:19:44
Speaker
Um, so I have an older, like I assume, I've been in a lot of therapy, but we never really talked about this aspect because I have so many other problems. But I have an older brother and I always saw him as just being better at everything. And he was like traditionally better at everything. I was, I'm very creative, but he's just like good at being a person.
00:20:03
Speaker
and he like didn't get into trouble and he got straight A's and like the highest grade on the AP tests and took all honors and I was like okay well he's clearly the best so I think that's probably where it came from and also from being in the ballet world and seeing that the people who are the best they're like it's such a easy dance is such an easy way to compare people to each other
00:20:28
Speaker
like you were very clearly good or bad, at least at the stage I was in. Especially because so much of it involves memory and being able to remember things so you can see who has a better memory and who doesn't.
00:20:40
Speaker
So there was that aspect. And then like, being in a super competitive school where everyone was looking at each other's grades, I think it's all stemmed from that, like from childhood nonsense. Yeah, like everyone was talking about colleges, they got into what their SAT scores were. I remember I got a good score on my SATs. And I told one person, she's like, Oh, you can retake it. I was like, what the fuck is wrong with my score? Oh,
00:21:06
Speaker
And people were super casual about getting the highest score, and I was just like, expected of you. I was just like, fuck off all of you, I hate you all. Right, jeez. Well, given that spite and jealousy is something that drives and motivates you, how have you found that to be sustainable or a fuel that for you burns clean, or maybe it doesn't? Oh, it doesn't at all.
00:21:35
Speaker
It ruins everything. And especially because so much of my time is not spent writing that I'm just constantly angry. And Twitter just throws gas on that fire too. Oh my fucking god. And also like one of the searches I have saved is in quotes, some personal news, because that's usually when people announce they're changing careers or changing positions. So I just have an ongoing list of updated tweets that say some personal news.
00:22:03
Speaker
And it just makes me want to hit a wall every time. Because it's just like, editor is getting better editor jobs or people who are like unemployed for a hot second because they were laid off from their great job got an even better job or like, yeah, it doesn't help. Jealousy is not good. I don't recommend it.
00:22:20
Speaker
Just like my I signed with this agent and now that I have this big publishing deal like a three-book deal or something and it's just like fuck Yeah You want to be happy for him? But then it's just like god damn it. Can I just have a sliver of sliver of this fun? Yeah, like I write congrats to everyone but also I'm like in my head. I'm like I hate you all
00:22:45
Speaker
And then all the articles about people who do really well are like, and she's only 26 and it's like, I'm not like, am I too late? I'm turning 30. Like I can't be Forbes 30 under 30 anymore. Like no one will ever care about me.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah, I have a thing about those 30 under 30 lists or whatever 40 under 40 and it's just like they might and they might help 40 people and even then that's pressure that on them that might be unbearable but like it crushes the spirit of 40,000 people who just feel like
00:23:20
Speaker
I'm not, I haven't accomplished this by 30 or 40, then I must be done. I must be washed up. It just gives nothing and no credence to the long haulers and the late bloomers. And I think that does a discredit to the entire landscape.
00:23:36
Speaker
I mean, also I've heard stories about how it's like people need one more person for that section. So they'll just like add a friend to the list or like a PR person will be campaigning for their client or like, so who knows what the actual method to that is. But I've definitely looked up people and been like, who are you? And it'll be in their bio that they're like 30 under 30 and be like, I've never heard of you. Like, are you really, really 30 under 30 material?
00:24:02
Speaker
Someone access my high school, posted on LinkedIn that he was in 30 under 30. And I just wanted to like, laugh at him. But I don't know him well enough to do that. And I don't think that's what LinkedIn is for. I feel like I'm just going to put that in my bios. Just like, I'm 30 under 30. Be like, oh, what list? It doesn't matter. I'm 30 under. I'm 30. I'm under. I'm under. I'm under somewhere. It's fine. No one's going to ask. No one's going to check.
00:24:32
Speaker
be like holy shit you must you're legit like yeah yeah like people have their bylines in their bio but it's not like i've ever gone and checked if they've actually written for that publication like i just believe it so you did say like you're motivated by you know people that you know that they kind of that piss you off and um but but there's got to be some people that you read that you admire too that that that do put fuel in your tank so who might some of those authors be
00:25:03
Speaker
So as far as fiction goes, Carmen Maria Machado, I read her stuff and I'm just like, I shouldn't even bother like, she's, she should rule the world. And then like, just like everyone else, I'll read Sally Rooney and I'll be like, well, she has my voice exactly. So I guess there's no point in me writing, because she's basically done exactly what I would do.
00:25:26
Speaker
And same with Sheila Hetty, all the people, there's a ton of people who I see my own writing in, and that's probably the worst, is when you see the subjects that you write about and your writing style already published. And rather than being like, well, this means that it's popular and that people like what I write. It's like, no, this just means that no one wants what I write, because it's already been written about. I don't know if I have any credence to that. So those people, I just finished. I'm not finished.
00:25:56
Speaker
Oh, what's his last name? A man called Ove. What is his last name? Oh, uh, Beckman. Yeah, that's it. So he wrote a book recently called anxious people, which I just thought was phenomenal. And so definitely him.
00:26:15
Speaker
I just got Gary Steinhardt's new book, Steingart, which my therapist told me to read. Um, so I don't know if there's like one particular person so much as just a cornucopia of smart people. And it's always smart people who have kind of a creative edge to their writing. Like, yeah, I forget her last name, but taffy something or another.
00:26:45
Speaker
I know exactly. Yeah, she's got a hyphenated last name, and I brought us her acne. Yes, that's it. I'll give you that effect. Yup. Yup. Got us her acne. I had to look it up. I didn't remember that. Like someone like her- I was typing it in, too. What? I was typing it in, too. I'm like, oh, there she is. I put Taffy, and she was like the fifth thing down. Right below Taffy Candy and Taffy Apple. There she is.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah, but like her writing is phenomenal. And any of her profiles are just so brilliantly done. And someone once told me like, this could be your writing in 10 years or something like that. And I was like, okay, that's the goal, to be a different white Jewish woman who writes things. So yeah. Nice. That's the goal. Yeah, it's a great goal. Yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
And so how do you start cobbling together various things like in the freelancer pie that you write from that's probably like content stuff, interviews, journalism, you name it. So how did you start manifesting that?
00:28:05
Speaker
I think some of it was just applying to job postings. Like I've been writing real estate or realtors bios and like brokers bios for who's or like who's who an agent magazine for God knows how long and I think that was just something that I saw on indeed.com but now they become just a yearly gig and the rate for them keeps rising because I've been doing it for so long. So there's like that type of shit. And then
00:28:35
Speaker
Someone that honestly, I'll see someone on Twitter being like, hey, who has experience doing XYZ? And I'll just be like, oh, I do. And I guess they didn't feel like looking for that long. So they were like, great. I looked over your portfolio. This looks fine. Here's this assignment for NBC. I'm like, perfect. Didn't realize you were from NBC. So a lot of it's just me seeing a thing and jumping on it. Something I tell people a lot is with
00:29:02
Speaker
a lot of jobs, like especially contract gigs, it's not that they're looking for the best, they're just looking for who's there and who's good enough. So I think I've benefited from that just like seeing a thing at the right time and being fine. So it's been a lot of that and then like some referrals here and there. But I'm definitely like a jump on opportunities person. I don't generally wait for something to come to me.
00:29:26
Speaker
One of the pieces you wrote, I really love the essay that you wrote about playing Scrabble with your mom.
Personal Essays and Emotional Writing
00:29:34
Speaker
Thanks. Yeah, I really thought that was great how, you know, some of the things that you write about there, how you like you and your parents don't really, you don't say, I love you, or, you know, you guys are in touch, at least in the piece, it was written almost six years ago, but it was, you know, you talk frequently, but it's just like the communication or the
00:29:56
Speaker
the affirmation that someone is on the other side of the line is just like playing the tiles and I thought that was just really well done you know given it just give it given the dynamic between you know you and your mom probably you and your parents so I just thought that was a wonderful essay
00:30:12
Speaker
Oh, thanks. Actually, so my mom played Scrabble all the time with her aunt, and her aunt just passed away. And she was saying that now this game is just like midway forever. And that's such a fantastic image. I mean, it's very sad, but also like, we start these games with people online. And you don't actually know like, if they're gonna end, which is very sad. And like, yeah,
00:30:41
Speaker
It just brings a whole new element to playing with people over the internet. Our personal essays, is that something you're very drawn to as a form and just something that you want to keep doing, even though they're kind of like, it's a tough road to hoe, but they are creatively fulfilling in a lot of ways.
00:31:05
Speaker
So when I started out, I was pitching a lot of personal essays because like I have an eating disorder and that always sells well, I have depression, that sells great, like all of those things. And I think it was the primary reason I wasn't taking myself seriously as a journalist was because I was only pitching personal essays. And this was in like the heyday of the personal essay, where they weren't really
00:31:31
Speaker
I feel like they're published less now, but they're always a bit better and crafted better. And just the writing is better. It's less about giving away all your secrets and more about how it relates to broader themes or how it relates to the world around you. I just feel like what editors are publishing is more mindful than it used to be. So I made a conscious effort to not pitch personal essays for a very long time.
00:32:00
Speaker
I think I got to a point where I was like, okay, I have like a solid enough resume of actual journalism where if I get my toe back into personal essay, it won't ruin me or ruin my reputation. But I definitely don't pitch that much because I don't think my problems are particularly interesting.
00:32:23
Speaker
And like I have a very hard time extracting greater themes and messages from like the bullshit I deal with. And I'm sure they're there. I just don't know them or want to talk about them. But yeah, like if I have a good idea for something, I might pitch it, but it's definitely not my go to.
00:32:42
Speaker
In writing about eating disorders, depression, did you ever feel just very hollowed out by writing about that going to that well of that kind of personal trauma? That's an interesting question. I wouldn't say I was hollowed out, but the thing about eating disorders and writing about eating disorders
00:33:04
Speaker
at least from my experience reading these essays is like, yes, we all come from different backgrounds, but eating disorders themselves are very similar to each other. Like we're, how they manifest is going to be very similar from person to person, generally speaking. So I didn't really pitch that many eating disorder stories just cause I saw all these other stories and they were pretty much what I would write too.
00:33:32
Speaker
And after a while it does feel a bit exploitative because you are just like dishing out your trauma and dishing out all of these dirty secrets. And something someone said to me very early on, not even in journalism, like when I was in high school, cause I was writing a piece about an eating disorder. And she was like, are you even ready to be writing this? And I think in a lot of ways, a lot of people start writing these stories because they can.
00:34:02
Speaker
not realizing that it'll have an emotional impact on them once it's published. And just the experience, knowing you can write about something is sometimes enough for us to just like go for it. Instead of taking a second and being like, I don't know if I'm at a point in my disorder where I can write about it with any real distance or emotional detachment in the way that it needs to be.
00:34:28
Speaker
Um, so yeah, that'll really answer your question. That kind of answers your question. Writing those kinds of things that can be, you know, some people can't report that it's therapeutic. I don't know if it is or not. I think it can be like picking at a scab, but that, but there's distance. Yeah. But yeah, you needing that emotional distance is, it just, it informs the piece so much better and then you can have better detachment and then you can even imbue it with,
00:34:57
Speaker
better research and use those skills. I love reported essays, so yeah, if you have some of that greater distance, you can really imbue it with some of that research that just makes it all the more nuanced and textured.
Newsletter Impact and Community Support
00:35:11
Speaker
But the spine of it is, of course, that personal experience, but you can really inform it with a lot more hard information that looks outside of yourself. Right, for sure.
00:35:24
Speaker
So I see that your newsletter, it's amazing, you have over 2,600 patrons. That's incredible for the newsletter on Patreon. Is that how many I have right now? Like 800 of those people don't pay me. So you should know that. I think I have in total over 7,000 subscribers hanging out on my listserv.
00:35:52
Speaker
What was your question? Sorry, I got distracted by it. It was just no question, just an observation. I just thought that, yeah, it's just, that's amazing that, yeah, at least for I, even if 800 of that 2,600 are not paying, it's still, it's still like a really, you know, robust, robust number. That's great. Yeah, thanks. I mean, people love other people doing work for them is what I've learned, especially deeply. So, I mean, being able to pay me
00:36:21
Speaker
from nothing to whatever you want to do 20 hours a week of labor that they might need to be doing otherwise. It's a pretty attractive deal. So yeah. So what was the genesis of your incredibly generous newsletter?
00:36:42
Speaker
So I wanted people to like me, first off, and I wanted editors to know me and assign me things. So I was like, well, if they're not gonna assign me things by pitching them, I will do this resource and they'll get to know me that way. So I started it and originally it was free.
00:36:59
Speaker
because I want people to like me. And then it became so much work that I was like, okay, I either have to get another job so I can support doing this or have to start charging people for this. So I started charging and that's kind of, I mean, I lost half my subscribers at that point. Luckily, it wasn't too far in, or made much of a difference. But yeah, just grew from there. And it has not amounted to more assignments as I wanted it to. People
00:37:25
Speaker
I don't know if people like me more as a person, they definitely like the work I do for them. So I don't know if it achieved that goal either.
00:37:33
Speaker
But yeah, that was how it started. Well, it's the freelancer community as competitive as we can be just because, you know, we have our petty jealousies and everything and resentments and bitterness and things that you and I have already scratched the surface of. It's an incredibly generous community building thing.
00:37:58
Speaker
So for you, how important is community and contributing in this way to try to rise all the boats? I mean, I definitely make that a real priority in everything I do, whether it's the newsletter or whether it's like the therapy relief funds that I've started.
00:38:22
Speaker
or just trying to be a nice person online. I just, I see all of the disparities that exist within the freelance world based on your income or based on what your spouse does or where you live or your race or any demographic really. And I just like, as a privileged white person doing perfectly fine financially, like,
00:38:47
Speaker
It's not fair. And I'm in a place where I can use my privilege to help people. So I'm kind of like, well, why wouldn't I do that? Because like, when I was doing really poorly with writing and with work, my parents were helping me out. And like, that's definitely not something everyone has. And I mean, I haven't needed their support and a lot financial support in a long time.
00:39:11
Speaker
But it was like having it was something I felt super guilty about all the time. So now that I'm in a place where I can help other people, it's like why wouldn't I? That's like the easiest thing I could possibly do is like look after a community in this way. Right. Yeah. And has it been a very rewarding experience for you today?
00:39:34
Speaker
Yes and no. I mean, it's one of those things where the angel on my shoulder is like, yes, this is so great to help people. So that feels good. And people have definitely told me they couldn't pay me originally, but now they can because they've gotten work from my newsletter. And that's amazing to hear. And then, of course, the devil on my shoulder is like, but these aren't bylines. This isn't impressive. You can't brag about this.
00:39:57
Speaker
like no one's going to recognize your name at the high school reunion that you won't go to anyway. You can't even show it to your parents. Hey, look at this. There's no maybe prestige associated with it that you can objectively say like, look, I'm successful.
00:40:14
Speaker
Right. And like, especially like the thing that pisses me off all the time is I'll apply to jobs that are like newsletter jobs. And the person will say like, Oh, we're looking for someone who's managed a bigger newsletter portfolio. It's like, well, fuck you. I've built this thing from scratch and like answer everyone's questions and do all the work. And, and like, like I always say with freelancing, like you have to do everything so much better to be taken seriously by someone with a full time job. So.
00:40:44
Speaker
And my parents do know what it is. My dad calls it a blog. But other than that, they do know what it is. So when it comes to your writing and reporting, where do you feel most alive and engaged in the process of generating and maybe researching a story? Alive and engaged are two feelings I never feel. Just dead inside? On the less dead inside spectrum.
00:41:12
Speaker
I mean, definitely the interviewing. I think interviewing is something that I'm good at. Both my parents are psychiatrists, and I've been in therapy for so long that I know how to draw things out of people.
00:41:26
Speaker
which sounds really aggressive, but I think I do it in a way that's empathetic and considerate and respectful. It's always fascinating to hear people's stories. Like everyone will say that. Like there's nothing not to love about someone telling their own story. So I'd love to be a part of that. And I love seeing the moment that someone feels like they can open up to you. Like you get past those initial introductions, you ask a few questions and they're like kind of tentative about answering. And then you ask something,
00:41:53
Speaker
And you say something, and then you just see their eyes soften. And their entire face just kind of light up and realize like, oh, I can trust this person. And that's such an amazing feeling of being let into someone's circle in that way. And I think that's my favorite part. And then going back and writing it as a slog, but definitely the interviewing. And then every so often, I'll write a line and be like, that's really clever. I'm going to pat myself on the back for that. But usually, it's
00:42:23
Speaker
It's not those moments, it's the interviewing.
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah, and when you're dealing with the drafting of something, and oftentimes, especially after you do the reporting, or even before the reporting, you kind of have like an idea maybe of what this thing's gonna look like, the perfect ideal of what it is in your head. And then you sit down to write, and you're like, holy shit, this fucking sucks. And it's never going to bridge the gap between what I hoped it would be and what it's actually gonna be.
00:42:55
Speaker
It's the whole Ira Glass Gap talk. Oh my god, that quote is one thing that just like, it haunts me. Yeah, it's so perfect. It is really good, and it's good, and it speaks to being a late bloomer. He was somewhat of a late bloomer too when it came to, you know, the stories he tells with this American life. I think he's made up of it.
00:43:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I think so. He's done all right for himself. But yeah, but for you, when it comes to bridging that gap and you're in that slog, as you say, how have you powered through that? Get enough bad stuff down that you can shape it and make it good. So a trick I learned, I guess, in high school
00:43:42
Speaker
is that I am incredibly good at emulating other people's voices. So like in high school I'd watch a lot of Sex in the City and then I'd find myself doing voiceover in my head in the voice of Carrie Bradshaw but writing my own material and then I realized going forward that I can do the same thing with a lot of other writers so if I'm in that slog I'll
00:44:04
Speaker
take up a book that I really love or read an article that I really love or read enough of it that my voice will kind of just like go into that shift. And I can start writing in that way, which is dangerous, obviously, because then all my pieces might sound completely different. So I'll be reading like Charles Dickens one day and something more modern the next day, which definitely happened in fiction classes I wrote, depending on what I was reading in my other classes. They'd be like, this sounds like Great Expectations. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of those like little magic tricks you can do.
00:44:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, but you're hitting on what can be the challenge with that, which is something I call a voice creep. If you're working on something, then you start reading something that's similar, you start imitating. It's like, okay, well,
00:44:50
Speaker
You're getting good at imitating that might help break you break you out of a spell but then it's it's not wholly You and I guess it can be really challenging to really okay like to break yourself out of that that cocoon of influence while you're Yeah, generating something. It's a real it's a real challenge I struggle with that quite a bit and I've been doing this for quite a long time now and doesn't seem to get any easier yeah, and like I'm working on a novel now and I
00:45:20
Speaker
the only times I can really write or when I'm reading. So it's definitely hard to, and I've been working on this thing for two years and not really getting anywhere with it. So it's definitely hard to like piece it all together in a way that doesn't sound like someone who's just been reading all of the New York Times bestsellers. So yeah, like I definitely, I see where it could be a problem. Luckily I don't write enough journalism pieces for people to notice.
00:45:49
Speaker
They might just think I'm improving, but really I'm not. What's your novel about?
Fiction Writing and Personal Experiences
00:45:55
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm really bad at explaining it and But like the only way I can kind of explain it is if Like Carmen Maria Machado's world went into an eating disorder treatment facility and like
00:46:14
Speaker
So like I said earlier, eating disorder narratives are generally very boring because regardless of our backgrounds, they manifest in very much the same way. So I'm trying to figure out a way to bring in like fantasy sci-fi creepiness, kind of like gothic elements into an eating disorder narrative. So there's a lot of like,
00:46:34
Speaker
And like some like weird holocaust imagery. I don't know. It's it's a hard sell Hopefully I'll get past the 40 pages I've written I told myself if I don't Publish it did I tell those already? Yeah, that you'll put the newsletter Make it public if you don't hit if you don't work on it Yeah, so I need to do it either today or tomorrow
00:46:57
Speaker
What are what are you finding? The biggest challenge of doing fiction, given that your body of work is nonfiction. Oh, fiction is actually so much easier for me because I've been doing fiction since I was like in second grade just for fun. I feel like with fiction, you can get I mean, you can definitely get away with so much more with playing with words in unusual ways and people why they just let it go. Well, they'll really admire it, but you're not.
00:47:26
Speaker
dealing with the same constraints that you deal with in journalism in terms of like really tiny word count or being, what am I trying to say? Being accused of like having a bias. Like of course you're having a bias in your novel. Like you have your own voice. So yeah, I mean, it's so much easier. And like once you get in the zone or once I get in the zone with fiction, I can keep going. Whereas I might be able to write a paragraph of a story for an essay and like I'm done.
00:47:55
Speaker
It just falls off there. So I feel like the momentum just isn't quite the same in fiction as in journalism. When I've noodled with fiction, what I find fun about it is just the being totally unbridled and nonjudgmental in a sense that I'll just set a timer for 10 or 20 minutes and I just go. I don't stop.
00:48:25
Speaker
and you generate a lot and then you also generate things you never knew were going to ever come out of you just because you got into the mode of putting down crappy words and eventually things just kind of come up and you write it down and you're like holy shit I never thought of that it just it just came to the surface and I would have never done that had I not just sat down and had a practice to do it
00:48:47
Speaker
And is that something that's kind of, you know, something you can relate to or something that you find enjoyable about the fiction writing experience?
00:48:58
Speaker
So I wish I could let myself go enough to write badly. That's like one of my big problems is that, because I always say like, just write and then eventually the good stuff will come out. And I'm like, no, I can't do that because like I can't have anything bad. So yeah, I wish I could do that. But it is always kind of amazing to see what I can come up with. Like the stuff I've written is really creepy and I do have like a dark, twisted mind, but
00:49:24
Speaker
And I was like, wow, I didn't think I would incorporate that bit of Nazism into this. Like clearly my Jewish education is working. There can be Nazis in everything you write.
00:49:36
Speaker
right if i can identify one strength i have is it's i can i'm okay being really bad for a long enough because i i'm like it'll like it'll i'm like it'll get competent eventually but i'm okay being like really bad i just have a low bar and uh that's one thing i'm okay with one of the few things i'll give myself credit for oh man i'm so jealous i can't at all and like
00:50:04
Speaker
It sucks, honestly, because I wish I could. Like, that's why I don't journal at all is because I don't want to write anything badly. So unfortunately, that means I like don't write down how I'm feeling or process through writing it just like, or like the second I like I said, like the second I realize I'm bad at something, I just don't pursue it.
00:50:24
Speaker
So even if I know I'm good at writing when I'm at my peak capability is like, if I see something bad on the page, I'm just like, Oh, I suck. I can't be doing this anymore. Which is very, I don't know, it's a burden. And it's, I'm sure I've lost a lot of potential for good work based on that.
00:50:49
Speaker
Right, yeah, I've had a journal, I've kept a journal since I was 16, so 25 years I've had a pretty regular journaling practice. I averaged out, it's about every two and a half to three days I've averaged a journal entry since I was 16.
00:51:10
Speaker
So, so, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of practice and there's but then you read like the journals of very prominent, wonderful writers and you're like, oh, my God, how are there journals like that pretty and that how is their writing that great when it's just journaling? I'm like, this is going to be bullshit, right? I know. Do you watch how to with John Rolfson? No.
00:51:36
Speaker
on HBO. So it's very good show. Highly recommend. Um, but in the episode I was watching yesterday, he was saying how every day since like 2008, I think he's written down everything he's done. And he was like showing pages from that journal. And I was like, holy shit. Like that is a practice. I don't know if it's a healthy practice, but it's definitely like a practice. Hmm. Well, so what's the show about?
00:52:02
Speaker
It's probably like the lowest budget show on TV right now. But it's this guy named John Wilson. And it's these 30 minute episodes where he tells you about some topic. So the best one I think is about scaffolding. And he just like does a deep dive into scaffolding. And it's fascinating.
00:52:21
Speaker
like he approaches it from so many different angles and now whatever I see scaffolding I'm like holy shit this is like the backbone of New York City and there's like people behind this and it just it's I can't explain it aside from like it's someone who probably has a lot of neuroses tackling a subject and deep diving into it it's a very neurotic show which of course I identify with
00:52:50
Speaker
You know what I was thinking, we kind of, when I think we were off, Mike, we were just kind of talking about feeling kind of overwhelmed and anxious and all that. How do you process, and this is kind of selfishly asking as well, because I'm just chronically overwhelmed and wonder how people process and get through it all. How do you deal with being overwhelmed and unfocused, and all that comes with that. How do you process it?
Anxiety and Evolving Ambitions
00:53:20
Speaker
I'm honored that you think I can deal with it. I don't know. I'm constantly on a ledge, pretty much. I go to therapy a lot. I take meds. I exercise. I do all those things. But I think honestly, I've just gotten really good at living like that.
00:53:40
Speaker
So to the point where I can't relax, I'll try and go on a vacation and it'll just stress me out more. And I did that this summer. I got an all expenses paid trip to a five-star resort in Hawaii on a private jet. I went and it was the most stressful thing I did all year.
00:54:00
Speaker
So I was just like, I don't belong here. Like everyone's calm. What is happening? And I had to leave early. So I was just like, I can't do this. Like, I cannot be around all of this. Just like serenity. It is too much. So yeah, so that's how I live. It's just in constant, trembling anxiety.
00:54:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm finding that I like I love coffee to death, but I feel like it's like gasoline on my overwhelm Anxious mind at the moment, and I just like I feel like I'm like on a frenetic very Electric edge that just like a freight electric wire. That's like maybe the best way I can Describe it just kind of
00:54:40
Speaker
in the wind is just erratically whipping around, just sending sparks everywhere and it could electrocute anyone who comes in my orbit. It feels dangerous right now. Yeah, I definitely knew that feeling. Yeah, the guy I was dating last year, I told him I was really anxious and he's like, why don't you not drink coffee after three? And I'm like, oh, I'll try that. It's like, hmm, I guess that helps. Right. Yeah.
00:55:08
Speaker
Oh, I know some people I used to know some people that and it's also like the ADHD mindset to where like heavy stimulants actually calm them down and like he could drink coffee like right before bed and he was like, yeah, cool. Like it actually sends me out. And so it has like a dessert coffee thing where they have their little biscotti and they dip it right before bed. Like I can't do that. Yeah. Sounds very elegant, though.
00:55:35
Speaker
It does. Very classy. Yeah. Where do your ambitions lie now as a writer and a journalist? I was about to say something really dark, but I'm not going to. Where do they lie? I don't fucking know. I want to be rich and famous and have everyone love me, like everyone else.
00:56:04
Speaker
I honestly don't know. I think the biggest thing is I want to finish my novel. Cause that is like, if we go back to jealousy and spite, I think I'm at the point in my timeline where seeing someone else write a novel is like the biggest burn to my ego. Um, so I think that is the thing that I'm prioritizing now, at least
00:56:32
Speaker
emotionally prioritizing my novel, not actually prioritizing it. But I mean, I don't know, like, there's so many different people who have careers that seem great. But I don't know what their lives are like. Like, and every time I like, when I was younger, and I do internships, I'll get internships at these places that sounded so amazing. And then I realized how awful they were. And it's,
00:56:59
Speaker
I'm kind of like, well, what's the point of even having dreams? They might suck in reality. So yeah, I have no idea. Yeah. I guess another way of framing that might be like, you know, what did a, you know, what did a successful writer look like to you when you were like 25 versus, you know, where you are now? And, you know, do those, you know, align like how, like maybe how have your ambitions changed? Maybe that's a better way of framing what I, what I asked.
00:57:26
Speaker
Well, 25 was four years ago, so they haven't changed that much. So from 20, we'll say from 20 to 29 then. Yeah. I mean, I think, I don't know. That's a good question because there's still the part of me that thinks like having a full time job at a publication is where you reign supreme. But I also know that a lot of people who have that are going freelance. And I'm doing pretty well for myself as a freelancer.
00:57:57
Speaker
So I don't know. I don't know what I was imagining for myself at 20. I think, I mean, I definitely thought the full-time job thing was everything I wanted. And like, there's still definitely a part of me that wants a full-time job or at least the validation that comes from having the title of a full-time job.
00:58:19
Speaker
Well, Sonya, I like to end these conversations, and I might get you a little flat-footed here because I forgot to prime you with this.
Practical Tips and Conclusion
00:58:26
Speaker
I like to end these conversations by asking guests for a recommendation of some kind. And you kind of mentioned how-to as a TV show. Yeah. But I like asking people for a recommendation just as a way to bring the airliner down for a landing. It could be anything. It could be a book, a pair of socks.
00:58:47
Speaker
advice like, no coffee after 3.30. So I extend that to you and you can take as much time as you need, but what might you recommend for the listener out there? Let's see. I mean, I'm a bunch of things. The magic erasers that you use to clean your sink, game changers, I forget who makes them.
00:59:09
Speaker
But you don't think it's going to work as well as I do? But then they do. Yes, they're Mr. Clean ones. You're like, wow, this really is magic. I would definitely recommend that. If you're small, going to the kids section for exercise clothing can save you like 20 bucks a pop. That was a huge thing. Or like college sweatshirts or anything that kind of is asexual or unisex in size, small people should go to the kids section.
00:59:39
Speaker
Um, so that's also big life changing piece of information. And then in terms of like TV shows, movies, all that, um, I just finished watching the first season of righteous gemstones.
00:59:52
Speaker
And it's so absurd. And the reason I started watching it was because my boyfriend was like, I don't think there's any scripted television that doesn't involve Jews. And I was like, huh, let's see. So he was like, I think this is the only show like that. So I started watching and I was like, yeah, this doesn't feel Jewish, but it's amazing. So that show, they just started their second season. It's phenomenal. It's so weird.
01:00:25
Speaker
Well, that was a toe-tapping good time, as I want to say. Thanks to Sonya and thanks to West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in creative writing. And thanks to you, the listener, for sticking with the hot mess that is the CNF pod, the little podcast that could, the greatest podcast in the world, so far as I can tell.
01:00:45
Speaker
I don't have much of a parting shot today, and by not much of a parting shot, I mean I don't have one. So I'm just gonna get up on outta here. You know how it is, just so stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do, interview, see ya.