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Episode 490: Seeing the Fish and the Tank with Jeff Chang
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"When I got back to [writing], it was like an athlete or a martial artist coming back to the practice, and the endorphins start running back. And you remember the joy that you had in it, also the struggles of it, but you're back in it, and then I couldn't be stopped," says Jeff Chang, author of Water, Mirror, Echo.
Today we have Jeff Chang, and what a great conversation this was. He’s the author of the beefy biography Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America. It’s published by Mariner Books, so we share a publisher here. Pretty cool.
He’s also the author of Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation, which was the winner of the American Book Award, Who We Be: A Cultural History of Race in Post-Civil Rights America, and We Gon’ Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation.
He’s a writer, host, and cultural organizer known for his work in culture, politics, the arts, and music. His work has appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, Los Angeles Times, and the Believer, among many others. He has a great Substack at zentronix.substack.com and you can follow him on Instagram @zentronix. You can learn more about Jeff at jeffchang.net.
We talk about:
- How hip-hop influenced his work
- Trust and relationships
- Voice
- Compression
- And stealing time to write
Why don't you settle in?
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Brendan's September Author Events
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, you see an effort as the front runner strides into fall, and I have three events in September. Tomorrow, September 20th, depending on when you listen to this podcast, I'll be at the Coos Bay Public Library for an author talk at 2 p.m.
00:00:13
Speaker
September 21st, this Sunday, I will be in Portland in conversation at the Oregon Historical Society at 2 p.m. And on September 27th, I'll be a featured author alongside Ruby McConnell for the Florence Festival of Books in Florence. It's all day, but the conversation is at 4.30. I have a total of four little things lined up in Idaho the first week of October, but I'll clue you into those as we get closer to those days.
00:00:40
Speaker
So stay clued in to my newsletters and brendanomero.com.
Call for Submissions: 'Codes' Audio Magazine
00:00:43
Speaker
Hey, secondarily, on Instagram at Creative Nonfiction Podcast.
00:00:50
Speaker
Oh, yes. Call for submissions. We got a new audio magazine. It's called Codes. That's the theme, not the magazine. The audio magazine is just the audio magazine. The Mandalorian and his kind live by a simple code, always punctuated by saying, this is the way.
00:01:06
Speaker
What codes do you live by? What codes were you at one time or another told to live by? has a code led you down the right path or the wrong? Essays should be no longer than 2,000 words.
00:01:18
Speaker
A 15-minute read? Bear in mind that in the end, these are audio essays. Write accordingly. Email submissions with codes in the subject line to Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com.
00:01:30
Speaker
Original, previously unpublished work only, please. Deadlines October 31st, 2025. There are no submissions, so this might be dead in the water audio magazine.
00:01:41
Speaker
Cash on the line from the O'Mara Grant, so send me your best fully formed pieces and maybe consider becoming a patron to help put money in the coffers that helps put money in the pockets of
Introducing Jeff Chang
00:01:52
Speaker
writers. Patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:01:55
Speaker
Let's move it along. Let's move this along. had and I've had books where I haven't been able to write for months and I've had to learn that it's it's not about that it's about the showing up and it's about the coming back.
00:02:15
Speaker
<unk>ine ever It's the creative nonfiction podcast the show where I speak primarily to writers about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. Are we doing this? Are we doing it? Are you still somehow doing it?
00:02:28
Speaker
So am I. So am I, man.
Jeff's Writing Journey
00:02:31
Speaker
Today we have Jeff Chang. And what a great conversation this was. Really fun. He's the author of the beefy biography, Water, Mirror, Echo, Bruce Lee, and the Making of Asian America. It's published by Mariner Books. So we share a publisher here. Pretty cool.
00:02:48
Speaker
You figure you got my book, ah Jeff's book here, and Jeff Perlman's book on Tupac coming out in October. All by Mariner. All iconic men who died too young.
00:02:59
Speaker
Perlman will visit in October. But for now, we're here to talk about Jeff Chang. He's also the author of Can't Stop, Won't Stop, A History of the Hip Hop Generation, which was the winner of the American Book Award, Who We Be, a Cultural History of Race in Post-Civil Rights America, and We Gon' Be Alright, Notes on Race and Resegregation.
00:03:20
Speaker
That gives you just a little taste, okay? Show notes to this episode and more at brendanamera.com. Hey, hey. There, you can produce hot blogs, tasteful nudes, and sign up for my two. Count them, two.
00:03:31
Speaker
Very important newsletters. The flagship Rage Against the Algorithm and Pitch Club. Issue four of Pitch Club. This with Cassidy Randall. Dropped like it was hot. And boy was it.
00:03:42
Speaker
And working on the next one with the journalist Justin Heckert. It's pretty great. Would love for Pitch Club to catch fire. I might be buying some ad space in the Sunday Long Read newsletter. for i mean, talk about a targeted audience of people who love long form, who love writing long form.
00:03:56
Speaker
And maybe you can learn a thing or two about some of the best people doing it and how they sell their pieces. Let's keep doing it. We might be throwing book pitches and... Asian pitches, maybe my Prefontaine book proposal that I will audio annotate.
00:04:12
Speaker
I don't know. Or maybe my next book proposal if it sells. When it sells, it'll sell, right? It has to sell. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna. Pitch Club will never cost a dime. I'll never gatekeep that.
00:04:25
Speaker
All I ask is for your permission because platform is currency. It's the most important thing. I mean, I guess writing is the most important thing, but then it like very closely it's your platform.
00:04:36
Speaker
And ah ideally not social media. It's just a wing of it. I'm getting off track here. Both are first of the month. No spam. So far as I can tell, you can't beat them. Also, I hosted my first Patreon AMA last week.
00:04:47
Speaker
Had it go? Not great. Gonna nix it. I think so. ah One person showed. Thank you, Kate. And it was kind of awkward because I'm on video, but the guests are in a like type chat thing.
00:05:01
Speaker
and So only Kate showed up, which is cool. Awesome. Thank you. ah So I answered a couple of her questions. ah But it was bizarre and disorienting. Like I'm having conversation into the camera and then, you know, she's just like typing things.
00:05:14
Speaker
um So it's just, it would work if there were several people involved. If I do such a thing in the future, I might just do it on Zoom and share a Zoom link. So if only one person shows up, we can at least talk.
00:05:29
Speaker
ah Anyway, it was, it was bizarre. We can all agree it was. If you care to support the podcast with a few dollar bills, go to patreon.com slash cnfpod. Oh my God.
00:05:42
Speaker
You got it. The housekeeping things. They take forever, don't they? But my intros aren't that bad. Right? So a little more about Jeff. He's a writer, host, cultural organizer, known for his work in culture, politics, the arts, and music.
00:05:57
Speaker
His work has appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, LA Times, and The Believer, among many others. He has a great sub stack at zentronics.substack.com. And you can follow him on Instagram at zentronics.
00:06:10
Speaker
You can learn more about Jeff at jeffchang.net. And we got a parting shot about gatekeeping. But for now, why don't you just settle in? We got a good one here, people.
00:06:21
Speaker
Cue up the montage. Am
00:06:30
Speaker
I allowed to swear, the way? Oh, yes. Oh, okay. Are you just fucking insane? Just kind of a sloppy person. No, I'm still such a fuck up. I'm going to be a fuck up probably for the rest of my life. is This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:06:54
Speaker
It's from Theodore Roosevelt. And it's just like with self-discipline, most anything is possible. And i think in in writing, it can be very, you know, self-discipline can be very challenging. And certainly, you know, the the book writing process, you do have to bring a degree of practice and discipline to it.
00:07:09
Speaker
you know And just for you and you in your myriad projects and certainly with an ambitious undertaking with any of the books you've done and certainly your most recent, you know, just what's the discipline by which you operate?
Writing Discipline and Life Impact
00:07:21
Speaker
What a great question, Brendan. like Yeah, you know, i and this is the kind of stuff you don't really get to talk about unless you're talking with other writers yeah um or aspiring writers and and that kind of thing.
00:07:34
Speaker
So I love this kind of discussion. um So, you know, for me, there are many... The book was signed many, many years ago, so long ago that I don't even want to go back and look at the contract.
00:07:45
Speaker
um Because i had I was working for another publisher. I had books due to another publisher. I literally had like three books that were due to this other publisher before I could begin work on this one.
00:07:56
Speaker
And then Life Intervened and The World Intervened. you know um You know, the George Floyd protests jumped off and the pandemic jumped off and all all kinds of stuff happening to our communities, our Asian and Pacific Islander communities jumped off. And I wasn't able to get to the book until the last three years. but What I was able to do was to let' what this extricate from my myself from a nine to five and then get back to the the regular pace of writing. Because for about 13 years or so, i was stealing writing time.
00:08:31
Speaker
I was working full-time jobs and I would you know work at four in the morning. I'd get up every morning. Maybe like a runner you know or a martial artist for that for that matter.
00:08:44
Speaker
and And just literally write for two hours every morning. And you get good stuff some days and some days you're like you don't want to leave. And then some days you're just like, I'm just staring at the screen.
00:08:56
Speaker
But that discipline, like you said, right? That that ah thing of like, this is part of my routine now. It's like, I get up and eat breakfast. I get up and eat breakfast and write. And then I get in the car and drive.
00:09:09
Speaker
When I was finally able to, there were years literally where I wasn't able to to pick the book back up. When I got back to it it, was like, again, like maybe like an ah like an athlete or or a martial artist coming back to the practice and the endorphins start running back and you remember the joy that you had in it.
00:09:28
Speaker
Also the struggles of it, but you're, you're back in it. And then i I couldn't be stopped. I mean, I was, I was lucky enough to be able to get a writer's residency
Financial Challenges in Writing
00:09:38
Speaker
with the LucasArts, um,
00:09:40
Speaker
program at Montalvo Arts Center. And so that gave me ah three months like to to be able to just dive in and be in it. like If I wanted to be 20 hours a day, or if not, you know i could be there at least in it 10 hours a day. But I wanted to be there.
00:09:58
Speaker
And yeah, and just the coming back to it every day, you know just getting the paces in, getting the work in, you know getting the words in. Yeah. And hearing you yeah talk about that and stealing those hours, it's always great to to talk about that because there are so many people out there who feel they might feel shame that maybe be the writing that they're doing um doesn't ah fully support them. in like a financial way. And here, here are the, it's always great hearing, you know, professional writers and accomplished writers from across the publishing spectrum that it's like, yeah, you know, i write it in the nooks and crannies of the, of the day of the day job and stuff like that. So to hear you articulate that is really, I think, validating for a lot of people who listen to this show.
00:10:43
Speaker
It's really real. I mean, you know, for many years, I was just writing, Whatever, record reviews that paid $25. And then in a lot of writing for free, of course. you know But I wasn't able to make a living on it until a little bit later in life. you know and But just the practice of it and the the coming back to it again, you know, i just I look at at some of these ah folks who have been just training for for decades.
Community Influence on Writing
00:11:15
Speaker
And the thing of coming back to it, you know, day after day, week after week, year after year, ah you know, it all adds up and you're you're heading in a direction.
00:11:26
Speaker
And I think that sometimes. we're impatient for product. That's what the world demands of us in our day jobs and that kind of thing. And it's not a linear type of process, but you do get better.
00:11:39
Speaker
i can definitely say that it took me a very long time to find my writing voice, maybe because I was you know stealing time or ah that kind of thing. And also just because you know at at the beginning, you don't know what you don't know.
00:11:51
Speaker
And then once you start knowing what you don't know, Then you feel like you have a big hill to climb. But again, it's a step at a time. And um you never it's one of those hills that you never reach the top of, actually. Right. Which is OK. Yeah, exactly. And you said two things that are really, ah really ah important. that Just the idea of linearity or in the case of many of us writers, there's a nonlinear path.
00:12:15
Speaker
through through this work and also finding your voice along that nonlinear serpentine path so just in that nonlinearity you know how who were the the voices you were ingesting that' ultimately fed into what would become yeah uniquely you That's such a great question too.
00:12:34
Speaker
So i I read a lot of writers like Mike Davis was huge for me. Angela Davis was huge for me. People like James Baldwin were were huge to me.
00:12:46
Speaker
But also writers like you know Maxine Hong Kingston, Frank Chen, writers ah who were developing an Asian American literary tradition. kind of I came into this through music. So I came into this writing record reviews in my like a high school newspaper and then finding my way from that to like zines, you know music zines, and then finding my way from that into what became known as hip hop journalism. And so we were all reading each other all the time. you know So I was reading Joan Morgan,
00:13:18
Speaker
and Dream Hampton. And you know the the writer of all writers for us, for our generation was Greg Tate, um who just stylistically, in terms of knowledge and in terms of approach and just a fearlessness about writing in that particular climate where she He didn't care if people were going to... um I mean, you know if he would if he came out today, it would be different. he'd be He'd be having to be subjected to all these silly comments you know and the in the in in the internet posts and whatnot.
00:13:54
Speaker
But he didn't care about that. And he forged a style and a way for all of us who came after ah to be able to follow. so
Writing Under Constraints and Editing
00:14:03
Speaker
Greg Tate was kind of, in a lot of ways, my beacon.
00:14:07
Speaker
And then when I'm starting to read people like, you know, Mike Davis and and Angela Davis and France Fanon and all of these other types of folks like you know like all of that is beginning to to make sense but i didn't really develop my voice i wouldn't say until about 10 years into the writing yeah um you know writing from like teens well into you know my late 20s early 30s until i'm like oh that that sounds like the voice in my head when i see it on the page um and And so i feel like I'm a late bloomer in a lot of ways. Oh, big time. I totally understand. that ah And ah this culture has little patience for late blooming.
00:14:47
Speaker
And it puts such a premium on precocity. You know, ah those those like the 30 writers under 30 that you need to attention I was just going to say that, yeah. Those lists, like that got into my head in a very bad way, you know, when I was like 29, 30, 31.
00:15:02
Speaker
twenty nine thirty thirty one And it just totally like sapped so much of my energy. And it was just like... How do you even get on a list like that? Like, how do you even get noticed? I'm not getting noticed. Here I am. Like you were writing reviews for a little bit of money. I was writing like these awful, and not awful, but like these slideshows, like winners and losers from the Daytona 500 for Bleacher Report, all this shit. And like all my heroes, my heroes aren't writing this stuff.
00:15:27
Speaker
And all these, meanwhile, these people are on this rocket ship and I'm comparing them, comparing myself to them. And it just felt awful. And it sounds like that's something you could totally relate to. Totally. i you know, i i was lucky enough to be able to um break in.
00:15:44
Speaker
but i say break in like with scare quotes big time because, you know, we were kind of forging our own sort of little alternative world with all the hip hop zines and hip hop magazines and stuff like that.
00:15:56
Speaker
So, you know, breaking in was meant like breaking into doing stuff for rap pages or herb magazine. had a column or alternative weeklies back then. um And then later, you know, then we're coming in and we're where we're developing stuff for content farms. are doing the The record reviews go from like however long you wanted to write and they would give you a staple copy of this zine that there were they were Xeroxing to, you know, 100 words.
00:16:26
Speaker
ah And ah i learned a lot out of that. And we can come back to that. But yeah but you know then then you're generous like you're writing these $25 reviews for, or $50 reviews for 100 words that will be in the back of of a magazine that you don't know if anybody will ever read. And you do that and you feel like you're you're like, what I did learn from that though was compression and editing. Yeah. And and I got edited by, i was lucky enough to get edited by some of the best in the business, you know, um ah Danielle Smith, you know, Sheena Lester, Bob Criscow, all of these folks, I was lucky enough to be able to work with and under, and especially Bob, like Bob would be
00:17:15
Speaker
like ruthless. He'd be like, no, like you're at 75 words. We need to get to 72 words. You're going back through this like for the 90th time. And you will, you know, and that was great. in And in fact, I, I, I give that exercise to anybody that I'm um teaching, you know, writing to is, oh, great. You gave 500 article.
00:17:37
Speaker
like now I need you to cut it in in half. And then I know I need you to cut it in half again. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And it's tough. It's really tough. But then you get down to the root of what it is that you're trying really trying to say. And you get to the, the most um exact way, the precise way of of being able to say it. It's sort of the writing equivalent of Bruce practicing Jeet Kune Do and,
00:18:00
Speaker
Getting rid of all of the fluff so you can just get to the most direct, you know, counter attack or whatever you have to do. Yeah. And the thing is, you need that fluff. You like you need to write up to 500 to then cut down. Like it's like you you have to put fat on the body in order to then make it lean. It's a in a way it'd be nice if can just get right straight to the to the 75 great words. But I think you almost need the 500 to get to the 75.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah, and and you know and you know you need to be kind of with yourself a little bit about it too, right? like I think people do, writer's block, you about that, right? Writer's block a lot of times is just that fear of being able to put the word on the on the page because it might sound silly or it doesn't you know like meet your standards, whatever like high exacting standards you've had. And I've had books where I haven't been able to write for months And I've had to learn that it's it's not about that. It's about the showing up and it's about the coming back.
00:19:04
Speaker
And it's all in the edits anyways. Like what's getting published is never going to be the first thing out of your mouth um or the first thing onto the page. It's probably going to be the thousandth thing that you you got onto the page. and And that's where the perfection comes in is the refinement process. So once i I learned it was about that and, you know, the compression exercises and, you know, all of those kinds of things, you know, it it got a little bit easier um to think about how to how to pace oneself, how to sort of unfold it over the long run.
Multidisciplinary Influence on Writing Style
00:19:37
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. Yeah. That that makes a a lot of sense. And I was I was thinking um a couple of weeks ago how, and you know, just a ah coming up like playing sports, for instance, you know, nowadays a lot of a lot of kids are very specialized.
00:19:54
Speaker
in like a particular sport and like you know when I was coming up you know you we would play by the season and you maybe specialize late and I think that like really kind of applies to like writing or even the arts that maybe like this sort of multi-disciplinary ah way to to like maybe you know like you know for us we're non-fiction writers but maybe it's like for a certain season maybe we just mess around with poetry or fiction or whatever, but then it makes ah the thing that we're that we want to be known for, it makes it a little bit better it because we're not just wasting ourself at the one well. And I don't know, just that you're for you, how are you thinking about the the holistic nature of you know what you bring to to your art?
00:20:36
Speaker
I think I've found that I do nonfiction the best. um sort of narrative, long form nonfiction the best, but it didn't start that way necessarily. you know And even for me, like when i was when I was coming up as ah as ah young person a younger person, um i was really into painting and drawing.
00:20:56
Speaker
And that was the art that I kind of really wanted to explore. And then I was kind of like beaten out of it and by formal training, to be honest. It was the type of thing where actually taking classes in college with professors like made me actually really like dislike it and cast doubt on what I was doing. And I think that's about the time I really started picking up on on writing. I was always doing like writing around music and stuff, but thinking a little bit more about how to move into other things. so
00:21:29
Speaker
So there's that. And then the the other part of it too is is that particularly in in the way that I'd like to write, which is sort of ah the way I describe it is sort of seeing the fish and the tank.
00:21:41
Speaker
ah There's a sort of famous psychological experiment that was done in which people were asked to describe to look at a fish tank and to describe what they saw. And one group described the fish and all the color and the scales and how the fish are moving and that kind of stuff.
00:22:00
Speaker
And the other group, it broke very cleanly into these two groups. The other group was looking not just at the fish, but at the tank and you know the rocks that were in there and the seaweed that they might have planted in. And oh there's there's some fish flakes that are left there that they didn't eat or whatever.
00:22:16
Speaker
Um, and I've always been the latter. I've been that kind of person. So in terms of the, my appetite for what I need to sort of ingest and metabolize to do my writing, um, it's all about like veering and all these different types of directions.
00:22:33
Speaker
Um, and then it's about sort of mixing it together, hip hop style, you know, sort of like you got all these different types of sounds, how are you going to put it into, make it into a beat, you know? Um, I got this loop. I got that horn stab. I got this guitar lick.
00:22:47
Speaker
ah These are in the same key. Oh, there's a nice little, you know, vo vocal hook here, you know, and then putting it together and stuff. So that's sort of how I, how I kind of approach things. And,
00:22:59
Speaker
And it it means like being a little bit more of a generalist. um And I really, really admire those who are not generalists. I wish I could be ah poet and be able to like really focus in on an idea yeah and then distill it, you know, into 17 syllables or whatever. And I can't, I'm not good at that. So I, you know, now I've done a lot of different types of experiments in different forms.
00:23:25
Speaker
I've found that I'm, I'm, this is what I'm best at. And it it means that for the next challenge, you're going to have to really buy off something. I, I haven't been able to chew very well yet. So yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
And there's ah there's, there's a moment in the acknowledgements where, you know, your, your, your pal ah Viet, the brilliant writer, he, ah he said something like assemble the scariest, toughest readers, you know, and allow them to tear your shit all the way up.
00:23:53
Speaker
And, And that is what ah what a line and what a way to make your work better. But yeah, how did you, yeah, you just have the stomach to then, you know, give over your work to very good eyeballs to then, yeah, tear it to shreds and still have the confidence to prove to go on. no It's, it's, an it's been an evolution, man. I mean, it's been the kind of thing where like, I, you know, like my, my hip hop crew ah from when I was really young is,
00:24:21
Speaker
You know, Soul Size crew became Quantum. Folks like DJ Shadow, Blackalicious, and Lyrics Born, Gift the Gab, Lateef the True Speaker, and also a good friend, ah Joseph Patel, who produced a Summer of Soul and Sly Lives with Questlove.
00:24:38
Speaker
Powerful crew. And when they used to make beats with each other, they would hide the beats from each other. They would not like want to let people listen to it. ah for a while until was done. And then even after that, i think, and I, you know, and so i was like, you know, like,
00:24:54
Speaker
And then on the other hand, the hip hop journalism thing was a type of thing where it's like,
Handling Criticism and Biographical Writing
00:24:59
Speaker
okay, De La So's album is coming out this month. So everybody is going to be doing an article on De La So and that's who, let's see who did the best one type of thing. you know So you read Vibe, you'd read Herb, you read Rap Ages, Rap Sheet, you know all of them. You'd read all of the magazines and you'd be like, who did the best article?
00:25:17
Speaker
um It was like this sort of competition. So I though i was living between those two poles. And ah at the same time, when I started doing my writing, I was a little bit more protective of what I was doing.
00:25:30
Speaker
um I felt like I really didn't want to lose control over it. I was like, oh, purist about it and everything, blah, blah, blah, bla blah. And over time, you know, it it would it became clear that the more that I was able to share it out, the better it was going to be.
00:25:46
Speaker
And I think that Viet's line that that came from an interview that he did with another friend, Kathy Park Hong, who like, ah they were talking about the process because Viet had asked Kathy to do a reading of his a book, a man with A Man With Two Faces.
00:26:04
Speaker
and um And he dropped that and I was shocked. And then I was like, oh my God, like, But how can I get better? That's the only way. You know what I mean? I have to be able to give it to people who are at that level who can really check me. and And so i I went back to my my sort of like days when I was a hungry writer and, you know, having – Like realizing the point that at which I started stopped fighting my editors, that's when I really started learning a lot.
00:26:35
Speaker
um So ah luckily now I have a lot of friends and peers who are just amazing Pulitzer winners and you know um and just geniuses in their fields.
00:26:47
Speaker
And ah for whatever reason, they said yes when I asked them to read. So ah so yeah, I feel like the book's better much better better much much better for that. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, that's, um yeah, it takes a lot of courage is a weird word to use, but it does take some, some degree of courage to be like, you know, it's not, this isn't up to the standard that I have in my head.
00:27:09
Speaker
ah But to be vulnerable, I guess, to be like, yeah, it's not that great. It's not that great yet. And now you can, maybe you guys can help me do that. Yeah. And, and having friends who are going to be generous enough to be spending, right? Like, yeah.
00:27:27
Speaker
Dozens of hours, you know maybe weeks with your with your, I mean, because I don't i don't do small so well. and and And then just be really, really brutally honest with you. That's how the crew ended up becoming. So you know with Soulcides at the beginning, like the guys were hiding beats from each other. And then as they began to sort of feel more confident about their work,
00:27:51
Speaker
and began to really love and trust each other, it was always like, this has got to go through the crew. um And so that was the development that happened. And you know that was a stage of of where the battle, the hip hop battle that was still the big thing. you know So freestyling was the thing. and And to see folks cutting in competition with each other in the way that the old jazz artists used to do.
00:28:15
Speaker
ah In real time, right? With words, right? And knowing that as a writer, I'll never match that. That was like how I i began write Can't Stop, Won't Stop back in the day.
00:28:28
Speaker
So yeah, so my standard was like, literally like gift to gab, Latita True Speaker, lyrics born in a room, going at each other in real time as Shadow or Accel are dropping the beats, and you know, in real time on beat and, and then like taking each other's heads off.
00:28:46
Speaker
And going, I will never be able to match that. But that's a ah great standard to try to aspire to in writing, to to see if you can keep people's attention and continue to surprise them um you know page after page.
00:29:01
Speaker
Yeah. and And when you're starting to tackle, you know, biography and this degree of, you know, ambitious storytelling that is, you know, talking about someone who's been written about a lot and trying to find those new angles and engender trust from people close, ah close to him, you know, where, you know, what was know step one for you? It's a big onion to peel, but what was, what was step one as you were embarking on, you know, what, you know, it's many iterations over the years.
00:29:31
Speaker
to kind of quietly and humbly begin to collect the information and to do a lot of watching, you know, and listening. And so, you know, step-by-step kind of moving into that world, then you develop relationships and you develop trust with, with people and you begin to understand,
00:29:52
Speaker
um how people, ah not just how people tell the story, but how people are invested in the story and how um and what your responsibility is to the story. like That begins to take shape you know very early on.
00:30:13
Speaker
It takes shape very slowly, but it takes shape very early on. But yeah, so sort of that kind of inching towards the cipher, you know, to use another hip hop metaphor and then understanding it and learning it and learning the norms, you know, learning the language, learning the folks in it, learning their relationships then, and then building those relationships as well.
00:30:40
Speaker
So, yeah, so, you know, it's in that way, it's it's it's a good thing that the book took so long to do because i can now say, say that there is like, I feel really good about what I put on the page now.
00:30:58
Speaker
And I feel really good about the world that I tried to recreate. And I feel really good about also my responsibility. Well, I, you know, I feel like I'm on top of the responsibilities that I owe to the people that helped to get me there.
00:31:12
Speaker
And that's something that's really important to me, just maybe coming from the you know Chinese and Kanaka Maoli, Native Hawaiian background that I come from, it's it's important to be able to understand the kuleana that I have when I'm putting something out there.
00:31:26
Speaker
um this is This is the Lee's story. It's the Lee family's story. It doesn't mean that that other people didn't have other perspectives and don't have other perspectives and that there are not other ways to be able to tell the story, but It's their husband, father, you know, who is no longer here with us.
00:31:46
Speaker
For all the rest of us, it's entertainment. It's a really important thing to be able to keep at the front of my mind, you know, in terms of thinking about what the story does in the world.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, and you're I believe you know your friend said he was echoing someone else, I believe, but he was like a biography baby for the world, he said, but there are people for whom the story is their life.
00:32:09
Speaker
That's Bao Nguyen, who did the Be Water documentary. And yeah, absolutely, 2,000%. Bao's...
00:32:19
Speaker
Bao's got the the wisdom of of the sages. And and to and to hear that you know from him as he was putting that together, it just meant a lot.
00:32:31
Speaker
and It really grounded me and centered me for what I needed to do. And with, you know, given that, you know, Bruce Lee's story has, you know has been told a lot over the decades and I'm sure, you know, the, the family, you know, Linda and then, you know, Shannon, who's like, you know, the daughter of Bruce and Linda, um, you know, the a lot of people over the years knock on their door.
00:32:52
Speaker
And I was surprised that, that, uh, that you had, you know, their, their blessing and access with with them just because, doing unauthorized biography, it's sometimes very hard to get that access ah to those people who have, you know, given so much of themselves over the decades that they might just be exhausted by it or they might feel ah exploited.
00:33:12
Speaker
um So, yeah, I just I guess getting to that part, you know, how did how did you engender that that trust with them where you had, you know, wonderful access that helped you tell a very rich story?
00:33:25
Speaker
I mean, i I don't know why they said yes. me You'd have to ask them. Um, but what I can say is, is, ah that they entrusted me and I take that trust seriously.
00:33:39
Speaker
You know, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything I write is, it certainly doesn't mean that everything I write is vetted by them. In fact, nothing was right like I, they were like, you go and do what you're going to do with this.
00:33:53
Speaker
And, um, And, you know, i i gave, i did give him a draft, you know, to be able to look at. i gave Shannon a draft to be able to look at. And, you know, and she didn't necessarily agree with everything that that I wrote.
00:34:07
Speaker
And that's fine. But she also was like open hearted and generous enough to be able to say, okay, that's, that's you. And, you know, we're, we're still friends. Like the friendship is, is still there. It's still deep. And, and that's how it is. Like if you, you like get the best of your friendships, be you don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything, including some of maybe what may be the most important things to you.
00:34:32
Speaker
but they're still your friends. They're still yeah whatever your family, you know? So that was what I was going for. um But you don't, I mean, there's no linear path and there's no, you just have to show up and you have to, you have to be good to your word and you have to deliver the things that you say you're going to deliver when you say you're going to deliver them. If they ask you, I'm not saying that this is transactional, that kind of way. I'm just saying that that's the way you build trust.
00:34:58
Speaker
yeah It wasn't transactional at all. And again, at the end of the day, Like, ah it's Shannon would absolutely tell me, no, like, I don't, I don't see it that way.
00:35:10
Speaker
But both of those things can be true. Like, the book can say this and her truth can stand and both of those things can be true. Yeah, it's know. And talking with my editor, know, about Steve Prefontaine, he would always say, you know, it's yeah at some point you need to you know you have your finger on the scale
Biography of Bruce Lee: Identity and Impact
00:35:29
Speaker
of this story. You know, you have to make that as the writer yeah as the writer. You have to bring your point of view and your assertions to it.
00:35:35
Speaker
You know, so for you, what were some of those assertions that you were bringing, even if maybe they um came into conflict with Shannon? Well, I will say this, like the the story is about Bruce as an Asian American.
00:35:49
Speaker
And that's, I think, from the beginning where everybody was seeing eye to eye on this. you know There's ways in which Bruce has been interpreted interpreted um as an American.
00:36:03
Speaker
There's stories that have been written about him that in which he's been interpreted as an Asian. But I really think it's this position of being of him being an Asian American that really explains who he was the best.
00:36:17
Speaker
And so that's the story that I was trying to tell. And I think that we all saw that, you know, um, Bao saw that Shannon saw that I saw that all of our other friends that, um, were so crucial to this process saw that as well. Kamal, my good friend, Kamal Bell, um,
00:36:38
Speaker
you know All these folks were crucial for me being able to move forward and putting this book together and out in the world. And um and you know i think that I've made a pretty good case in in in the book about that.
00:36:53
Speaker
In any great biography, there's an element of of world building, and it's kind of like the fish tank. you know You're describing some some of the the fish tank that helps inform yeah the people living within it and swimming within it.
00:37:06
Speaker
So I think you know by you taking that scope, that's exactly you know what you're that's that's part of the framework that with. who Yeah, 2000%. You know, that's sort of the the analytic lens that I bring to it, so to speak, as well as like the experiential lens.
00:37:27
Speaker
You know, I'm reading Bruce's story about how he's born in San Francisco. And then he goes back to his parents as a baby. And then he comes back to the U.S., immigrates back to the U.S. at the age you know of 18.
00:37:41
Speaker
And I'm like, that's my grandfather's story, actually. You know, my grandfather was born in Hanalei, Kauai. And... um And his parents took him back to China, but he re-migrated at the age of 17.
00:37:55
Speaker
And I'm like, well, actually, that's not just my grandfather's story. It's the story of a lot of Asian Americans. This idea that we ah migrate and we live you know across the Pacific and in between the Pacific, right? where were in all of these worlds all at once.
00:38:14
Speaker
um And for folks to be like, well, he was more Asian or more American. No, he was Asian plus American all the time. and um And I think that that is the way to maybe watch his movies, you know, in Way of the Dragon. He's telling an immigrant story.
00:38:33
Speaker
You know, he worked in a restaurant in Seattle as well. And that informed, like, the way that he was telling the story of the waiters in this Italian town, right? In this Italian city who are about to get, you know, their restaurant poached by a gentrifying developer who's also gangster. Like, it's not like he didn't see that stuff happening in Seattle when he was living there.
00:38:59
Speaker
um So, you know, it's, these are, these are a lot of the things that um I think don't pop out when you think of Bruce just as, as Asian, just as you know, an assimilated American. No, it's, it's, he's actually living like in between and all through all of those worlds.
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah. And, uh, you, you, you write that, you know, you were looking for a portrait of, of Bruce and Asian America that feels materially and and materially and psychologically true. And this, this third wave of Bruce Lee scholarship. So how would you define this, the third wave? and Maybe even the first ones, but then certainly the third that of which you are on the leading edge.
00:39:39
Speaker
Yeah, i you know i'm I'm part of the generation that comes of age after Bruce. um So the first generation I think of, there's been a lot, let's be let me back up and just say, there've been a lot of folks who have copiously and carefully documented ah Bruce's life um for, there's like two generations of scholars and maybe now I'm i'm part of the third, but the first generation where his contemporaries and friends and people that he knew who were capturing a lot of the stuff that he did, you know, at the time, in real time, people like Mito Uehara, who was writing about him for Black Belt magazine, um I think key among them.
00:40:20
Speaker
And you know and And a whole bunch of other folks, folks who you know would relate a lot of those stories um in writings or in recordings and those kinds of things.
00:40:32
Speaker
The second generation of folks came of age after he passed away in the seventies And they continued to document these stories and to seek out all the people who Bruce...
00:40:44
Speaker
who Bruce had known and had worked with largely the fighters, much less. So I think the people who knew him in his sort of non martial arts context.
00:40:55
Speaker
ah But that's a lot of the amazing work that's been going on and continues to go on. And I come in after that. I, you know, I, i ah Between the time I i got the contract and the and the time I was able to start writing, many people passed away.
00:41:11
Speaker
And I know that that was probably a thing with you two writing about you know um Steve. And i just think, um you know, I regret that every day. yeah Thanks to the second generation and the first generation of documentarians, we have a huge record to draw upon from.
00:41:31
Speaker
And so my job was to piece it together and make sense of it, to line it up on a timeline, first of all, and and then to to go back to the folks who are still around and to ask them some of the questions maybe they'd never been asked before um to to try to get into the interstices of what the record you know currently is. And and can still yield at this particular point. So I was really lucky to to be able to um make the acquaintance of people like Mito Uehara, his first girlfriend, Amy Sambo, a lot of his friends in Seattle who were there when he first arrived and who helped him through journey.
00:42:17
Speaker
his early years, which is where I think he became the great hero that he became because he moved in that space from being sort of, you know, a privileged child growing up in Hong Kong to ah being able to understand what it meant to be a racialized minority in the U.S. and learning from poor white folks, learning from black folks, s learning from Japanese American folks um in particular, that was what began to shape him to become the hero of the global, the global sort of underdog, you know, the, the,
00:42:57
Speaker
the sort of voice of the people in a way, ah which is why he's so popular now today and comparison to all the other folks he was coming up with at the same time, all the other movie actors he was, he thought that he was wanting to be like Steve McQueen or Jim Coburn and those types of folks. Yeah.
00:43:15
Speaker
Well, and also taking on a subject like this, also you're you're dealing with, you know, legend and myth-making and often trying to get behind that mythology of decades of stuff that's been fed our way. And, you know, you're right you write, know, sometimes allowed myth and legend to take up where fact should be.
00:43:33
Speaker
And then ah a little bit later on in the book, there was like, ah the they make the man into a legend above time and place as if his success had always been preordained. They they make him transcendent but also unknowable.
00:43:44
Speaker
And I yeah really love those passions of how you're echoing and getting, trying to get beyond mythology. And, you know, how were you able to accomplish that? So we feel a more, a yeah, more intimate portrait of him.
00:43:56
Speaker
I was just struck about how little people who actually knew about Bruce's life and still, you know, don't. And I, you know, I tie it like right away to how little, you know, people know of Asian America and in many respects, um,
00:44:13
Speaker
And so, you know, telling those two stories, the story of the rise of Asian America and the story of the rise of Bruce Lee, you know, is in some ways my attempt to to try to shed some light on on on these, you know, parts of ah memory and history that have been less seen and then to be able to allow people to see Bruce in his fullness. Because when we do, then we can realize, oh, wow, like that's the real scale of his accomplishment.
00:44:47
Speaker
You mean he went to Hollywood and there was literally no Asian in Hollywood who could play a hero since the 1920s? Wow. You know, ah that's, it's sort of, when you put it in in that kind of context, it just,
00:45:04
Speaker
the the scale of his accomplishment just becomes that much clearer. It's so much bigger. Yeah, he really, he just, you know, probably mid midway through the book when he's starting to starting to move into Hollywood near the, there was the, you know, number one son. and And certainly when he's starting to embody Cato for Green Hornet, it's just like of trying to get beyond this caricature.
00:45:29
Speaker
And he's so instrumental to her towards getting getting beyond the the stereotypes and these harmful stereotypes and to put you know Asian America in ah in a way that's at least, as at one point you're right, starting to decentralize whiteness.
00:45:45
Speaker
it's yeah it's It's not a new thing for me to say this at all either, um but to... When I went back and I started looking at some of the roles that he was playing, even after the Green Hornet, it was like, wow, the straitjacket that Asian Americans were in, in terms of what Hollywood's expectations were.
00:46:06
Speaker
um You know, the other artists who I got to speak to who is like a contemporary of Bruce's and who we can kind of think of as as as breaking through these boxes is George Takei, right? Who is now sort of like, he's like our James Earl Jones, you know, he's the voice of God, you know, the Asian American voice of God.
00:46:27
Speaker
But he was also at the same time that Bruce is playing Kato, playing Sulu. you know And so you start seeing these breaks in the fabric of what is limiting, what is sort of holding down the or suppressing the the range of of representations that Asian Americans can have.
00:46:49
Speaker
And then the fact that it takes like another 20 years to get through another breakthrough that we need to wait another 20 years till joy Luck Club comes out and and Bruce's son, Brandon, you know, is able to make Rapid Fire and The Crow.
00:47:03
Speaker
that it takes and And Dragon comes out. like It takes another 20 years for that. And then it takes another 20 years after that to get to everything, everywhere, all at once and Crazy Rich Asians and you know Past Lives and all these other amazing movies that have kind of come out of this sort of post-pandemic Asian American Renaissance.
00:47:24
Speaker
ah So to think about like the long arcs of history is to kind of, again, sort of see the scale of the achievement that he was able to accomplish in just 32 years.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And there is um I love I always love the the grace notes in a book like this that show show some vulnerability. Like Bruce Offey, who he was kind of he was very tough, ah you know, on the streets. He would seek out these fights and and ah often win win fights. ah But then there's this moment where, you know, when girls flirted with him, he suddenly got very shy and awkward and then he would just invite them to feel his muscles.
00:48:03
Speaker
And it's just like, it was like little things like that. You realize like, okay, you know, there is the kind of a shy kid ah beneath that all that, that veneer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:16
Speaker
Painfully shy, painfully shy kid. The vulnerabilities were the most surprising thing to me. Like to, to like, you know, we see him seem him as this invincible hero and he's crushing all evil, you know villains who come after him and stuff in numbers and in,
00:48:31
Speaker
in size, right? and And then just to know that that at the same time, like, he had to hype himself up. Like, he's literally reading all of these, like, Chinese, you know, four-character idioms to, like, give himself, like, ways to be able to wake up in the morning and deal with the world. And then he gets a little older, and he's in Seattle, and he's reading, like, these self-help books, you know?
00:48:56
Speaker
He's reading these American self-help books, and Napoleon Hill, like, Think and Grow Rich, like, you know, he's broke, but he, if he thinks it, if he keeps his mind focused on this, you know, one, like one true aim that he'll be able to open up all these Kung Fu schools. And just like thinking about it in that way, i think other writers in the past have been like, oh, it was preordained. He was, he always knew exactly what he was going to do.
00:49:22
Speaker
But when you start looking at some of the Chinese translations and you look at some of his private papers, you're like, man, this guy was like, really trying to keep it together at certain points. Again, to and and to understand that, to to like get at that sort of psychological nuance like through these papers was was not only, it was a gift to me as a writer, but it's something that that is a gift to all of us as as folks who might be fans of Bruce to know, hey, you know this guy went through
00:49:53
Speaker
just the same kinds of stuff
Bruce Lee's Legacy and Writing Challenges
00:49:55
Speaker
that we did. He had to put his pants on one at a time one leg at a time as well, right? yeah um Maybe he didn't, maybe he jumped into his pants, I don't know, but but still, right? yeah He had to learn how to do that at some point if he did, so.
00:50:07
Speaker
I think it gets a bit of ah ahead in the chronology, but later in the book where he had a lot of his peers and even Linda was telling him, like you don't have to you know try so hard right now, like you're established.
00:50:20
Speaker
But he it kind of gets to that that insecurity of like it could all go away at once if he doesn't just keep pressing as hard as he possibly can. And it's just right to the very end of his short life. he was was really, you know, pedal to the metal.
00:50:37
Speaker
He was pedal to the metal and he. he He felt an amazing and incredible burden and responsibility to be able to represent Asians in America and Asians all around the world in the best light.
00:50:51
Speaker
And so that is really the tenor and the tone of a lot of the struggles that he undergoes in the last year of his life. um is literally every fight that he's fighting, he feels like is a life and death type of fight.
00:51:05
Speaker
And you just, again, like, if I could tell you, like, you know, reading some of these some of these notes, You know, like when ah later scholars such as John Little and other, you know, great documentarians of Bruce Lee's life put these things in onto paper and they get translated into a font, you don't get a sense of how they feel on the page.
00:51:28
Speaker
And some of these letters, he's literally like, you could tell he's writing this late at night. He's completely exhausted. There's literally one line that he writes, like, i you know, something like, I was...
00:51:40
Speaker
this is what I was supposed to do or something like that. And the and the line just kind of trails off the page. Yeah. That again, sort of just,
00:51:50
Speaker
you know, like they I'm just thinking about like now, like being able to even just write this book and be part and be recognized as, you know, a writer of, of you know, Chinese and Native Hawaiian descent, ah you know, that like that.
00:52:07
Speaker
you know, ah like Bruce made that possible and in in his way, right? He made that possible. He made it possible for us to be able to to do what we're doing now. So when i when I take a deep breath and I sigh like that, it's, and, and you know, many of us still feel that kind of a weight.
00:52:24
Speaker
Other folks are not. The younger folks maybe don't feel as much and God bless them because they're going to do all kinds of incredible stuff. But I certainly, you know, I certainly still feel that as well. And,
00:52:36
Speaker
And that was what I was part I was trying to ca convey, i guess. Yeah. Well, even right towards the very end. And this is something that kind of echoed how even like know Steve Prefontaine was viewing his athleticism and activism.
00:52:49
Speaker
You know, you write of Bruce, like he used his hands to help and hold others. He used his hands to form fists and fight for justice. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, there was just this element of, it it was so much more than what was on the surface. And, yeah know, we're talking about it now, but it's just like, yeah, he, uh, he had the self-awareness to know that he was more than, more than himself. he was, you know, he had, yeah he had the burden of, of trying to elevate, you know, his people.
00:53:16
Speaker
Yeah, just like Steve, right? He could have just been a great runner. have just been like the one of the most competitive runners of all time, but he also felt the need to be able to take on the AAU. on behalf of all other um amateur um athletes. and and And that resonates all the way to today, right? And even the debates that we have about and see the NCAA sports and and on and on. It's just like, it's really interesting to to kind of look back at this particular period and to look at people like Bruce and and Steve as like incepting these ideas that literally take
00:53:52
Speaker
you know, half a century to actually to to to sort of, you know, come to maturation. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, big time. It's powerful. Yeah. yeah know you You know, you're writing a far more in question important question looms, like against the backdrop of the struggle for racial desegregation, how might Asians rise from a self-defensive crouch to a new standing in America?
00:54:14
Speaker
And that was like really his animating force. Yeah, it was. And so though you know the the fact is that Bruce never called himself an Asian American. He didn't have access to the movement. he was he was you know He was in a different world completely. And then he was back in Asia as the Asian American movement is making big strides and and sort of you know taking hold in communities all across the country.
00:54:38
Speaker
So he didn't have access to that language, but it was the same type of spirit that was motivating him you know to to break through in Hollywood. That was motivating activists, ah you know organizers, um teachers, health workers, lawyers, artists ah in Asian communities across the U.S.,
00:55:00
Speaker
in the late 60s and the early 70s to be seen and to be recognized and to you know claim there the the civil rights that they you know were being denied.
00:55:12
Speaker
Yeah. And ah part of the book too, that I really loved was, ah you know, when Jesse Glover comes into the picture and he's, yeah and he's just someone who yeah knew of Bruce, wanted to learn from him.
00:55:24
Speaker
And, you know Bruce had a choice of whether to help, you know manifest, uh, you know, Jesse's vision for, you know or just to, to be in and among these martial artists. And, uh, you know, Bruce does, know, take him under his tutelage. So,
00:55:38
Speaker
don't know just, you know, for those who aren't familiar, but like who's Jesse Glover and why is that moment so formative? Jesse Glover was really his first formal student. And ah Jesse Glover was a young black man who had grown up in the same district that Bruce was within, segregated within ah the Central District in in Seattle.
00:56:04
Speaker
And he had grown up as ah as a 12 year old, literally being attacked by a drunken police. ah just for being on the street with his two friends in the wrong part of Seattle at the wrong part of the day.
00:56:19
Speaker
And so, which is, you know, daylight, it's the afternoon, but he's he's there in a primarily white area and this police swas policeman swaggers out of of the restaurant and suddenly they're being chased by this cop and he gets he gets himself beaten.
00:56:38
Speaker
bloody to the point where his jaw is broken. um And he never forgets this, this incident. And so through his life, he's trying to learn self-defense in order to protect himself.
00:56:50
Speaker
And at at one point, and ah you know, for a long time, he's thinking, I want to get revenge on these cops. um By the time he meets Bruce, he's decided that that's a so it's it's not a mission that he wants to engage in, that he can't live in that place, that it's hurting him more in some ways in terms of how he wants to move on. But he's still obsessed with martial arts. So he sees Bruce, who's like this 19 year old, doing ah a demonstration in Chinatown for the Mid-Autumn Festival,
00:57:23
Speaker
of Kung Fu. And he's like, that's what I want to learn. And finds out that Bruce is attending the same um school that he's attending this, this sort of like continuation program. That's kind of ah you know, outside of the public school system or but outside of the public high school system.
00:57:44
Speaker
And he starts following him to school and he gets Bruce to teach him. And for Bruce, to decide that he's going to become a teacher at that particular point. He had it in his mind like, oh yeah, maybe i he's telling his friends in Hong Kong, you know, when he's exiled to the US. Oh yeah, I'm going to open up all these schools and people are like, haha, you haven't even learned that much. You know, Wing Chun, like, what are you going to teach people?
00:58:10
Speaker
and But at that point, he realizes that he actually has this thing that he wants to share and that it can change people's lives. And in turn, those people change his life. So Jesse is is his first student and he learns how to see the world through Jesse's eyes.
00:58:28
Speaker
um and And then he begins to meet um Japanese Americans like his best friend, Taki Kimura. And Taki somebody who who at the age of 18, when he was 18, just before he's graduating and going on to get an engineering degree in college,
00:58:51
Speaker
ah They are taken away to the incarceration camps for you know for being Japanese American in 1942. And he's held this his entire life. And bruce what bring what Bruce brings to his life is this new way of being able to look at the world with pride.
00:59:10
Speaker
Taki often says that Bruce gave him his life back in a lot of ways. and And again, you know so Bruce is teaching them martial arts, but he's also learning very deeply what it means to to go through these struggles.
00:59:27
Speaker
ah He's also learning from a lot of poor white folks about how they live you know and and how they are trying to make it in society as well. He teaches a lot of folks there as well.
00:59:39
Speaker
And in that sense, he becomes somebody who's open to everybody. and sees his mission as being able to, at that particular time, as being able to help to lift them up.
00:59:52
Speaker
And it leads to you know friendships with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and and and then, of course, him getting onto on screen and and playing these roles of of the underdog who has to overcome like forces far beyond anybody's comprehension to sort of make a way to rebel.
01:00:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I know through through my own experience of of doing biography of someone who's long past that yeah in doing the research and doing the writing, they they've really come alive in a way that you almost forget they're going to die. Like, you know the ending.
01:00:26
Speaker
And, you know, I think Linda wrote towards the ah she had written like, how could a man this alive die? And that's definitely how I felt just through the research. I wonder just for you as you through your research, yeah did you kind of lose sight of like, oh, my God, like it 1973 is coming. He's going to pass away soon. Like i't I did I did. And, you know, and and.
01:00:47
Speaker
In the process of of doing it of course, you're you're still speaking to surviving members of the family. And so it's there. But then to move through all of this and to be trying to recreate all of all of their vivacity and the the power, that the chi that they you know brought and exuded in in their bodies and and all around them the world, yeah.
01:01:12
Speaker
so the world um
01:01:16
Speaker
You get to a point, right, where you're just like, oh, no, I have to write this portion of the book. I'm sure you had that. Big time. Right? I'm sure you had that. Yeah. And you're like, gosh, how, like, and then, ah it yeah,
01:01:31
Speaker
as a writer, you get overcome with emotion. You you know, you you just like, wow, like, yeah you begin to really understand in through that way, like, you know, what the depth of the loss is like, we're never going to understand that like Pri's family and friends did and and like Shannon and Linda and Bruce's closest friends did.
01:01:53
Speaker
But just approximating that feels very much some kind of a way you have to you have to be there. For sure. Yeah. and Yeah. and well I know you I know you had to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And we and with books like this, too, it's sometimes their their premature death can really overshadow their life. And I think what you've done with this book is really you forefronted his life. So his death is this tragedy, but it's not this thing that you remember him for.
01:02:18
Speaker
And so you give you've yeah, yeah you give give him his life back and in a way that sometimes maybe other tellings don't. yeah and you And I think you do that as well with Pre. I mean, it's it's the type of thing where, you know, like the macabre nature of it, right?
01:02:35
Speaker
The Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, macabre sort of Tupac, Biggie. Mm-hmm. version of it can be like something that, you know, one dwells upon as, as a way of coping, I think, you know, as a way of being able to, to be like, wow, that, you know, person actually, even though I didn't know them really meant a lot to me, you know, and Joe Strummer passed, I cried. you know what I mean? I was like, no, Joe died. yeah You know, he was supposed to age and live on forever and become like Woody Guthrie. Right. And just be like the guy that was like going to be there at 80, you know, like
01:03:14
Speaker
talking down Trump, but, but no, he dies right at an age, you know, that, that was way premature, even though he died in his fifties. And so, yeah, to be able to, to go back to, to get away from that and to, to turn the focus back from, from the, the premature death to how he really lived.
01:03:36
Speaker
That's partly what we can do, I guess, as, as biographers is, as as folks who who can bring life and and meaning, the meaning back to folks.
01:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, and and how did you keep from being overwhelmed by the totality of your subject? but One step at a time. You know, it's, yeah. And like I guess said, you know, i'd like I'm a tortoise. You know, I'm not the fastest hare on the track. i just I took a really long time with it. So yeah I had time to kind of, you know,
01:04:07
Speaker
walk through it and and and build and learn. And again, to to be able to do it with the patience of of his family and friends you know um ah with me. and And when I say patience, I mean like I would do an interview and then I go back and be like, you said this, can I ask you more questions about that?
01:04:26
Speaker
And people unfailingly being generous enough to be like, yeah, sure. like like I'll take another hour like uh you know like let me just put down my sandwich here for a second you know what i mean like they like i the like yeah that that that was uh Yeah, that was part of the the process. It's also a joyful part of that process as well, right? and Amidst all of the heaviness of of of what it is that you're doing.
01:04:50
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And did you feel like this book, this is what I'm hearing from Seth Wickersham's new book coming out, American Kings, of about the biography the quarterback. you know A lot of people who've been saying nice things about it like, this is the book Seth was like born to write.
01:05:04
Speaker
And do you feel in some ways that you you know the water mirror echo, like this is the book you were born to write? i you know I don't know. I mean, that's something that other people put on you, right? Like you always, as a writer, are always feeling like, I'm born to write the next book that's coming. Like, just wait for that one. yeah I felt like i was born to write Can't Stop, Won't Stop. i was I felt like I was born to write you know ah We Gonna Be All Right and Who We Be. So it's an honor. It's it's a nice thing if folks are saying that about that, you know, ah about the book.
01:05:32
Speaker
i'm I'm happy for that. But i we keep
Reflections on Writing and Authenticity
01:05:35
Speaker
on moving too. yeah we're not Again, I'm not the fastest person on the track, but I'm still moving. Yeah. i know like I got a few more laps left in me, hopefully. Yeah, like Tom Brady always said, like, what's your favorite championship? He's like, the next one.
01:05:46
Speaker
and Right, exactly. I feel like with us, like yeah no it's like, yeah, the you know i'm I'm born to write all the ah all the books I'm meant to write. All the books I write, yeah, yeah. To get to the next one. Oh, that's awesome. Well, well Jeff, ah this is just so great. The book's a masterpiece. Thank you, brother. I so appreciate that. Your book is amazing too, man. I can't wait to finish it and just like really be in the thick of it all and stuff. And I'll come back and and interview you and ask you a million questions about it. Well, any day, Jeff. and ah and And I love bringing these conversations down for a full landing by just asking the guests to you in this case for a recommendation for the listeners out there, just anything that you find cool and making you happy.
01:06:27
Speaker
So I just extend that to you as we as we wind down. Anything that's cool or making me happy, man. I mean, you know, there's a lot of things, a family and being able to to to to have some time with them and and that kind of thing. Being back in the writing life e full time.
01:06:44
Speaker
I came back to it about, you know, oh, actually a little bit more than two years ago now. And
01:06:53
Speaker
it's it's It's beautiful. It's a amazing. It's the hardest thing, right? like It's the hardest thing to do in life, but it's also the the most rewarding thing to do in life. so um I'm feeling blessed for that.
01:07:05
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Jeff, awesome. Just so great to have this conversation. i'm there i'm just I'm psyched for this book to get out in the world and to make an impact and inspire people. and just ah It's a testament to your love of the subject and you're just the masterfully told and master and beautifully written. So just a thank you for the work and and thanks for coming on the show to talk some shop.
01:07:25
Speaker
Thank you so much for the invitation and for this really fun conversation, man. I really, really appreciate it.
01:07:37
Speaker
That was great. Thanks to Jeff for coming on the show. It'll be interesting to have him back in between. I love talking to people between books when they're not, when we don't have to talk about the thing that we have to be talking about.
01:07:49
Speaker
We can just kind riff. Those are my favorites, and I think he'll be a great one. Hope it was worth your time. I know was worth mine. I hope we were a good company. I think we were. Water Mirror Echo.
01:08:00
Speaker
Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America is the name of the book. Mariner Books, woohoo, is the publisher. Be sure you're clued into Pitch Club and Rage Against the Algorithm. My two newsletters to stay in the loop.
01:08:12
Speaker
Secondarily, I creative nonfiction podcast on Instagram. That's where I primarily hang out in the social media. Toxic cesspool shitstorm.
01:08:23
Speaker
Hurricane of bullshit. Listen, I'm not one to begrudge anybody making a buck, okay? Especially writers and especially freelance journalists. But I find so much of the paywalling of stuff from writers looking to dish that great advice alarmingly dismaying.
01:08:39
Speaker
So this gets into this idea of gatekeeping versus getting paid maybe what you deserve for a service. I think about this a lot. Let's take a little bit of a detour. But it makes sense. so I have a niece who plays soccer in college now, and she's a fine little player. and Growing up, she was, like many young girls, soccer-obsessed, skilled, and quick.
01:09:00
Speaker
She works hard at it, and I believe it's paid off to some extent. But here's the thing. She benefited from stay-at-home mother who could drive her all over the Mid-Atlantic to showcases and tournaments and club teams, all the extracurricular playing time and coaching that is the purview of the privileged.
01:09:20
Speaker
She comes from money. And a few summers ago, she was on a travel team that got to play in Sweden. Needless to say, that was not cheap. I think you see where I'm going with this.
01:09:32
Speaker
How many talented, worthy, hardworking athletes on merit alone... are or were every bit as good as my niece, but because they might come from, say, a dual-income home of overworked parents, they can't join these club teams.
01:09:48
Speaker
They can't be driven all over the state or the region, let alone affording to travel abroad for what was essentially a glorified showcase. We're seeing this in baseball, too. Will Baumgardner's book, Homestand, talks about this a bit as well. its It's very pay-to-play.
01:10:09
Speaker
So the people who make it aren't necessarily the best, but the ones with the most resources to manifest their talents. Imagine if all the talent got the benefit from this attention, if the playing field were more level.
01:10:25
Speaker
And make no mistake, it isn't. And it's becoming more lopsided by the day. And so I see it in the writing world too, right? Like how many brilliant voices are going unheard or uncultivated because, don't know, they can't afford a residency or a workshop and certainly an MFA.
01:10:41
Speaker
you know, these status symbols that give its alums a leg up perhaps. And some people might argue that if you have skin in the game, you take it more seriously.
01:10:51
Speaker
You know, maybe a you you pay for something but like, oh, yeah, yeah. If it's free, it's easy to ignore. But if you pay into it it's like, OK, now your your feet are being held to the fire. You want to get an ah ROI. But when I see on Substack a lot, I i see a lot of these kind of these writer guru types, maybe.
01:11:11
Speaker
We'll call them that. you know Paywalling their best counsel. I often bristle at that. i mean Why not give it away? Their platforms are robust enough that they can leverage that to get money from deep-pocketed publishers or their university gigs. Maybe it helps them get tenure or whatever.
01:11:29
Speaker
I don't know. Speaking out of my ass when it comes to university stuff. I'm an outside-the-academy guy. You know that. There are ways you can still get paid without like nickel and diming your audience.
01:11:41
Speaker
yeah The most privileged of your audience. Well, some of you might say, well, B.O., don't you have Patreon? How is that any different? And to that, I'd say, yeah, it's more of a tip jar. And none of my content is paywalled.
01:11:53
Speaker
And I do offer actual like face-to-face time with the three upper tiers in Patreon, which is an incredible bonus. It really is. Like when you really break it down dollar wise, it's obscene.
01:12:05
Speaker
As many of the patrons know, I often go above and beyond their tiers and most are, most are just happy to contribute a few bucks to which I am extremely grateful. you know Very few take me up on my offers. I often feel bad that I'm taking money and only giving you the thing that you can get for free anyway.
01:12:22
Speaker
ah So as a result of that, I try to go above and beyond. But often people are just like, we don't give a shit. Just like, keep doing what you're doing. To which I say, awesome, thank you. And I think of Pitch Club and how I'll never pay wallet, even though it's worth money. Even at Leah Satili, my friend and freelancer, sub-stacker, just all-around good plow.
01:12:44
Speaker
She's just like, yeah basically told her audience, like, this is something you should be paying for. Down the road, I may accept pledges. I get more of a tip jar deal. Like, I don't want to gatekeep.
01:12:56
Speaker
I don't want someone, perhaps an upstart freelancer, Or someone in college or a freelancer with very little disposable income because, my gosh, by the time the taxman is done with your shit, a $100 check turns into $40. Yeah.
01:13:11
Speaker
Yeah. I don't want anybody like that getting priced out of a learning experience that might actually help them make a go of it. And then if you get tremendous value of it, then if the pledges are on, maybe you can kick it back or you just pay it forward with this new experience you're getting.
01:13:29
Speaker
But pitch club takes a lot of time. And if I put up a paywall, shouldn't I try to get what I'm worth? i mean, that's the central tension of doing this kind of work. Much of the work we do is for free.
01:13:40
Speaker
It's to maybe get us attention that we can leverage into paying gigs, speaking gigs, writing gigs, maybe teaching gigs. you know, at what point are we bleeding ourselves dry in service of a greater writing community? Shouldn't we get ours?
01:13:55
Speaker
And this becomes a personal decision and that you shouldn't take lightly. For me, in my life, at this current moment and of a relative matrimonial harmony, I'm okay not paywalling my newsletters or podcasts.
01:14:09
Speaker
I'm never going to, but I can see if my financial situation were different, they'll be like, okay, like I need to scrap scrap together income in any way possible. ah But thankfully, i I can leave those things for free for people.
01:14:22
Speaker
you know But if I can get 10,000 email subs across, and be it the ah maybe just in combination, the podcast and Pitch Club and Rage Against the Algorithm, I could get just about any publisher to get me a book contract for my lane, which is primarily biography and sports biography more specifically.
01:14:41
Speaker
That to me is currency. Email permission is currency. So by you trusting me with your email address, of which I will never exploit, my attractiveness to publishers grows.
01:14:53
Speaker
And that's how I can get paid. That's kind of my vision, my strategy, my long-term vision for all of this. Also, if I'm giving away 99% of my shit for free, I also expect every five years or so that you in the audience, be it on the newsletters or the podcast, will buy my books, multiple copies for you and your friends.
01:15:13
Speaker
I think that's fair to ask. This line of work shouldn't only be the playing field for the privileged. It shouldn't be pay to play or pay to learn or pay to write.
01:15:24
Speaker
It kind of pains me to think of all the languishing talent out there, be it athletic or artistic, who just need some help. Someone to turn the light on. Someone to light the path a bit.
01:15:35
Speaker
Because my God, that's why I started Pitch Club. Like this thing, i just the path before me was dark. And I didn't know anything. I just needed someone to just give me some light so I know I'm going in the right direction.
01:15:50
Speaker
And so this isn't to say it's to spoon-feed people, but it's to say, hey, here this is the way. This is how you can do this. You still have to work at it. You still have to earn it. But the playing field can be leveled somewhat.
01:16:03
Speaker
And the doors shouldn't have deadbolts. So whatever. Stay wild, C&Fers. And if you can't do interviews, see