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Episode 12 - Deadly Waters
14 Plays5 months ago
Nym & Nylene plunge into the darkness for their stories this week. Nylene talks about ancient Roman poison rings that circulated the widow maker Aqua Tofana. Nym sneaks over to the true crime side of things with a look into the 1981 death of actress Natalie Wood.
Enter the Nightmare for show notes, transcripts, sources, and more!
Mature and disturbing content contained within.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome to Nim and Nyleen's Nightmare Cottage, where we discuss dark locations, sinister media, and other tales of the macabre. I'm Nim. And I'm Nyleen. Let the nightmare begin.
00:00:48
Speaker
into the nightmare if you dare. Hello. Welcome to the cottage. Cottage where nightmares aren't made, but they're talked about here. They're experienced. So there comes a spooky puppy. Not sure if I heard the
Authenticity in Podcasting
00:01:05
Speaker
jingles. We had to kick out the spooky kitty earlier because she's just purring like a little motor and thought that might be weird to hear in the background. You just did your actually glasses.
00:01:15
Speaker
i say what you want to say? I don't know. i It doesn't bother me when I hear that stuff on other podcasts. I think it's endearing and I think that... That's fair. It makes you feel like you're home. Yeah. It's like I get to hear a sweet, happy, fuzzy baby being happy.
00:01:32
Speaker
By the way, Nam's actually glasses, just so that you understand when I say this inevitably again. So she just always, i maybe it's because I'm shorter than her, but she's always kind of peering down at me until her glasses slide down. And then you know when I say something that she doesn't quite agree with and she doesn't want to voice it, she just kind of pushes them up with one finger and then stares me down. I wasn't really aware that I did that.
00:01:57
Speaker
I know. That's how I know that you want to say something and you're like, this is the moment. It's always the moment. Let me tell you that. just Just say it. I love hearing your feedback. It's more about choosing my words to make sure it happens correctly because good intentions are what my mouth is. Sometimes
Facial Expressions and Misinterpretations
00:02:14
Speaker
it just like vomit some bullshit. and i Yeah. At least you have the ability to pause yourself. I do not i do not have that ability to just I don't always, I think it's more like my brain to mouth filter is generally, while not perfect, usually in place. It's my brain to face filter. Oh, yeah, no, no. Nope, no filter on my face. It's, it's really bad too, because
00:02:38
Speaker
So I realized I used to be a restaurant manager at one point. And man, like these people, I would like, you know, make little faces at them and, you know, laugh. Like we we were cool. I thought we were in a good place. So I looked in the mirror one day to make that face that I've been making at them when I walked through a door. It did not look friendly. It looked like I was like me mugging or like, oh, what are you doing here?
00:03:00
Speaker
When all I intended was like the nose scrunch like he like, you know, yeah, yeah, so much as you're scaling. Yes, exactly. And like, even my soft smile of like, just like, you know, your howdy smile, like just how like you pass by someone. Oh, my God, I have not been smiling. It's been more of a sneer.
00:03:20
Speaker
And I
Post-Holiday Blues and Comfort
00:03:22
Speaker
didn't know that. Yeah, Ace a few times has called me out on that because he's like, why are you looking at me like that? And I'm like, I'm smiling at you, you asshole. And he's like, that does not look like a smile like that. That looks like you are very upset or smelled something really bad. I'm like, thank you. Appreciate that. Super helpful. Sorry. A smile that lights up the room. Oh, God. Yeah. Maybe that's why I laugh so loud and hard because people are like,
00:03:50
Speaker
Just to make sure everyone knows. Overcompensate. Oh my gosh. for your Not your resting bitch face, but your ever-vigilant bitch face.
00:04:02
Speaker
How's your week been? It's been interesting getting ready. for all of it to end. All of it to end. After holiday, holiday, you know what I mean? It sounds weird, but like it's stretching longer. like Usually, I love January. January is like my favorite month because it's my birthday month and my husband's birthday month. and It's post-holiday, but it's just been a lot of trying to clean up and winding down and finding places for everything, but you know nothing crazier than what's going on out in the real life world, which
00:04:38
Speaker
you know you know it's ah It's interesting. We'll leave it at that. but yeah it just like I feel like the vibes are off. I know that sounds like a really weird thing to say, but like everywhere I go, it just feels like so electric and not in a good way.
00:04:53
Speaker
yeah I can
Interest in Dark History
00:04:54
Speaker
definitely agree with that. I really enjoy being at home with my with my husband and my nightmare kitty and hanging out in the nightmare cottage with you and being in my world. And you know right now, that's just what I'm going to focus on. Yeah, now I feel that. I feel that. And very, very dark shit that happened in the past.
00:05:15
Speaker
and not currently. Yeah and I know that's weird too because I've just been very interested in dark shit that's happened in the past more than usual but so yeah just trying to I guess keep my head down for a little while. Just re-re- what's the word? Were you like oh recharge? Recharge. I know words. We all know words. We know what we're doing here it's fine. And then just in case anyone is curious we now have the um Nightmare Puppy just nestled right underneath the microphone. So I'm hoping he falls asleep. and Maybe you can hear a little snore or two, but keep close to your app for that. yeah He's very snuggly.
00:06:02
Speaker
We come prepared to this podcast. Listen, the funny thing is I had it open and then I went to close out of everything else and I closed out of it.
00:06:12
Speaker
All right, so today we're going to talk about a fun little, you know, thing that happened in the past as we, as we do, but we're going to go way back this time. We're going to go back to, I guess, ancient Rome, right? Italy, where we're going to go back in the day. So it should come as no surprise that poisoning was a relatively common thing during ancient times.
00:06:35
Speaker
Whether it was intentional or just part of everyday life, it was a bit hard to decipher. you know We've talked about the mercury poisoning and the makeup and you know how people used to just you know accidentally poison themselves all the time. you know Even we're looking back at lead pipes now and that kind of stuff. so right yeah um but yeah if you were mentioning, you know it might be kind of interesting to see what what that kind of stuff would really look like.
The Tale of Aqua Tofana
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, like the process of trial and error over the years, over the centuries of ah the you know millennia, whatever, of of human existence, you know I don't know. that's a whole That's a whole thing to dive into. Yeah, like what what it looked like and how we figured out what kills us and what doesn't. Yeah.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, women historically haven't had a lot of power during the Renaissance era. They were constrained by marriage, what status of marriage or gallery could buy them or, unfortunately, what they could be traded for. yeah So they were often seen as property, their worth and the number of heirs that they could provide and you know, the things they could do in the regular household. So most of these marriages were young, innocent brides being married off to men, you know, two to three times their age.
00:07:43
Speaker
And so abuse was pretty common, you know, and oppression and and these marriages and a lot of controlling behaviors, right? So the only alternative for some of these women was being in a convent if they weren't going to get married or somehow ended up leaving these marriages.
00:08:00
Speaker
So with this being the case, it's not really surprising that women turn to poison, you know, to try to rid themselves of their tyrannical marriages and increase their chance of becoming rich widows. Now, I'm going to go ahead and say this now. Don't poison people, guys. Don't poison anyone. Yes, murder and poisoning, which may not lead to death, but might also just really suck. Definitely wrong. Don't fucking do it. Don't poison you, yourself or others. OK.
00:08:28
Speaker
go stop there. All right, thanks. Have you heard of aqua tofana? I have not. Okay. It's that it was invented in the loosest sense of the word by Francesca LaSarda and Tiofania di Adamo in the early 1600s. It was known under a few different names, aquatofana aqua tofana, aqua tofina, and mana di sanicola.
00:08:52
Speaker
The latter was thought to be the trade name used to avoid detection by authorities as it was openly sold as a cosmetic and a devotional object in vials that included a picture of St. Nicholas on them. It was produced and dispensed by a group of wise women, if you know what I mean, to exclusively female clients to murder with their husbands or other cruel male family members. It's usually the males that are being poisoned. It's actually believed that more than 600 victims were claimed by this poison over time. Mostly husbands of fed up wives, like I said. So what made this particular type of poison popular was how slowly it worked.
00:09:30
Speaker
on the victims and how the illness it caused mimicked natural illnesses at the time. yes Its active ingredients were arsenic, lead, and at times, belladonna, which we all know to be very poisonous at this time. It was colorless. It was tasteless, which made it really easy to mix with water or wine that was typically served by the woman during meals.
00:09:53
Speaker
So aqua tufana, it was served in four small doses over time. like They perfected this. It was pretty crazy. But what's interesting is, even modern day, it's not understood how they mixed these ingredients. and Because like I said, this just the the arsenic and the lead and the balladonna, those are just active ingredients. There's also additional you know things to make it just flow, I guess, but it's still not understood exactly how they were able to mix it. And that's why they were able to sell it so well. It's because these ladies literally figured out how to turn it into a picture. Yeah, and i I struggled to find some stuff on that, but
00:10:30
Speaker
Yes, it was served over four small doses over time. The first dose would cause cold-like symptoms, which, you know, especially during that time. But by the third dose, the victim would be experiencing severe digestive distress, which included vomiting, diarrhea, a burning sensation in their digestive system. The final and fourth dose would be the killing dose, but it was very slow and painful after that fourth dose. The death allowed the victim and their poisoner to prepare for their death, like writing a will, they're repenting for their sins, really just getting that that good closure in. That's really dark. I know. Because I've always thought of poisonings being like... It's quick, it's done. quick it Yes, exactly, like pain lit will.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah. In my head. and Painless, quick, it's done like they're just gone. Yeah. And this one, it's just like you're watching the product of what you've been doing for a time and really helping them close all of the gaps in there. What's the time frame? So it depends, like right? like I mean, the four doses are recommended, but some people would drag it out over time, over a long time, because you have to wait for them to exhibit those first set of symptoms before you can move forward. Otherwise, it looks too suspicious. so But it's just one dose or several of that same first formula?
00:11:50
Speaker
I don't really know the- I suppose it's probably better that we don't know. Yeah. I was like, I don't know the measurements. I i i think my my FBI agent might already be concerned, so I don't really want to- Oh, the shit we googled. Oh, God. Yes. It was pretty slow and painful. There was an antidote, oddly enough. I'm not really sure how effective it was because a lot of the pages were just like, yep, there was an antidote. Don't really know if they used it, but it was just vinegar and lemon juice.
00:12:19
Speaker
weird. I don't know how that worked. Obviously nowadays it's much easier to test and confirm these types of poisonings, like if someone dies in the autopsy it's pretty easy to see what they died of. But during this time that really wasn't as possible. Now we're in 1631, 1632, and the original creators, they've actually been tried and sentenced for the crime of their murder ring. So it's said that De Amo, which was one of the first ones, met with the most extreme punishment of the group,
00:12:48
Speaker
for her role in the creation and distribution of this poison. One account states that she was hung, drawn, and quartered. Another account states that she was closed and bound alive in a canvas sack. I'm trying not to laugh, but the image is just insane.
00:13:06
Speaker
and thrown from the roof of the bishop's palace into the street. Yeah, like I just, like just yeeting people off of roofs is insane to me. So as much as all that sucks, the daughter of one of the original creators, I'm gonna butcher this it Italian name, Guglia Tofana. So she fled to Rome along with another woman named Yerlama Spara, which reminded me of, what was it called?
00:13:35
Speaker
that movie where they were fighting Nazis, Goralami. Oh, um fucking Inglorious Basterds. Yes. Yes. Just thinking about that movie. Goralami. I'm sorry. um Yeah, so Jeralama Espara. So they were, they went to Rome, they fled to Rome when their, you know, her mother died. ah was sentenced and murdered, basically. Anyways, they went to Rome um and there they recruited new accomplices and they found a new supply of arsenic. And it just so happened to be through a priest whose brother was an apothecary with you know the accessibility to what was used as medicine at the time, ah but is poisoned. So after Tofana's death, Aspara took over as the ringleader.
00:14:21
Speaker
and she hired Giovanna de Grandis as her associate. So what made this so interesting is that Spara was the widow of a Florentine gentleman. So she moved comfortably in aristocratic circles. And the widow thing made me wonder if she actually murdered her husband or he died of natural causes. But I was already on on on a thread here. So so her so associate, Giovanna, would actually cater to all the women of the lower social classes. So together, and with the help of their holy arsenic supply, they turned a poisoning into a liquid and they bottled it as glass jars, calling it Mana of St. Nicholas, which to me sounds like Hand of St. Nicholas. um so I was thinking Mana, like
00:15:07
Speaker
It could be that. I don't know Italian, but I'm going to go on a quick detour to talk about this Mon of St. Nicholas stuff. So it's a real thing. Not a poison, but these ladies just so happen to try to disguise it as this stuff, which is pretty ironic because of what it is. So there's a saint, Nicholas, that is buried in a tomb in Bury, Italy. So dating back to at least the 1600s, on May 9th of every year, a liquid is is extracted from the saint's bones, mixed with holy water and sold in a small glass vial.
00:15:42
Speaker
It's transparent, it smells sweet, and it's said to have medicinal powers. And every year, no more than about 50 milliliters is extracted from these bones. But like these bones just sweat out this liquid. And they've been bottling about 50 milliliters of it since the 1600s. And from what I can tell, it's used as a holy oil, which it's much preferred over what I was concerned was probably being ingested.
00:16:06
Speaker
But it grows either way. I'm sorry. You're saying the still? This is real. This this is real. Mon of St. Nicholas is real. It's a real thing. And that's been happening forever. That's not a poison. but what I'm sorry. Let's go back. The skeleton yes is excreting liquid? Yes. This century is old still? Yes.
00:16:26
Speaker
more about that Thank you. I'm sorry my story isn't thrilling enough for you. I'm sorry, but that's fucked. I want to know more about that. That's crazy. Continue, sorry. No, it's crazy. They were basically taking this, which was a real thing at the time, and they were fraudulently. Got it. Not fraudulently because the women buying it knew what it was, but that's how they would keep from being detected by police, and they were working with a priest. Of course, they would have access to this. Back to the story. It's 1658.
00:16:58
Speaker
Roman authorities are actually tipped off to this crime ring. It seems the first word of this broke in a confessional of a wife who killed her husband and felt guilty about it. So she confessed to it, which led to the whole ring being exposed. So they went on trial for 46 of the murders with five ringleaders, six accomplices, and 40 of the lower class customers being tried.
00:17:22
Speaker
The five ringleaders, including Spara and Grandy's, they were hanged in July 1659. The accomplices and lower class customers were all imprisoned for life. I'm sorry, what year? 1659.
00:17:34
Speaker
Just as expected, Father Guillermo, who was supplying the arsenic, and all of the aristocratic clients escaped punishment by order of the Pope. One of the known aristocratic wives, the Duchess of Ciri, poisoned her noble husband, the Duke of Ciri, and her only punishment was that she had to remarry.
00:17:52
Speaker
In 1659, the trial ensured that aqua tofina and water from palmaro became a catch-all term, referring to a class of slow poisons that were thought to be precise and detectable lethal. It was also reinforced that existing prejudice that poisoning was a female weapon, and that apparently Italians were more skilled than any other nation than using it at the time.
00:18:14
Speaker
It also seems that the secret of how to make Aqua Tofana may have survived the murder of the Ring's sentencing. In Naples, 1709, a French traveler reported the capture and execution of an old woman who was selling a clear poison that was labeled as Saint's Mana. In another case, the personal physician of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI claimed to have read legal papers reporting the deaths of 600 people using the poison in the early 1700s. So it seems like the poison was still going around somehow, but not maybe in a ring type style. Or maybe they just got better at hiding. Yeah. So in closing on Aqua Tefana, I wanted to read a quote that appears in a journal from 1890 that summarizes all of this perfectly. So it's a bit long, so hold on. This is a quote. It's actually anonymous, but I put my source in the show notes.
00:19:03
Speaker
Administered in wine or tea or some other liquid by the flattering traitorous, it produced but a scarcely noticeable effect. The husband became a little out of sorts, felt weak and languid, so little and disposed that he could scarcely call in a medical man. After the second dose of poison, the weakness became more pronounced. The beautiful Medea, who expressed so much anxiety for her husband's indisposition, would scarcely be an object of suspicion.
00:19:30
Speaker
and perhaps would prepare for her husband's food as prescribed by the doctor with her own fair hands. In this way, the third drop would be administered and would prostrate even the most vigorous man. The doctor would be completely puzzled to see that the apparently simple ailment did not surrender to his drugs, and while he would be still in the dark as to its nature, other doses would be given until at length death would claim the victim for its own.
00:19:54
Speaker
To save her fair frame, the wife would demand a post-mortem examination. Result, nothing, except that the woman was able to pose as a slandered innocent, and then it would be remembered that her husband died without either pain, inflammation, fever, or spasms. If after this, the woman within a year or two formed a new connection, nobody could blame her. For everything considered, it would have been a sore trial for her to continue to bear the name of a man whose relatives had accused her of poisoning him. And that is
Hollywood's Dark Secrets
00:20:23
Speaker
the history of the mysterious poison known as aqua tufia. That's cool. I've never heard it by name, but i've I've heard of other stories of that slow poison over time. Yes. To make it seem like it was just normal. A little less vicious. Well, it was cool. Thank you. And now I have some more shit to look up.
00:20:47
Speaker
Ready? Ready Freddie. I first thought to do a story on like the dark side of Hollywood, of old Hollywood. Like Marilyn Monroe type? From the beginnings of Hollywood until... The beginnings of time. Sorry.
00:21:00
Speaker
ah through just, I don't know, I'm not as interested as the modern options, but you know, but i'll I'll probably kind of get into that more as I go through this. But something we've done to ourselves already is pick a really cool topic that's really broad. And then we find so much to cover that we don't get to spend as much time on the things as we like. So I found several mini stories that intrigued me. I mean, Hollywood is still a cesspool of fuckery. It's a lot more common knowledge now, instead of having whatever magazines or newspaper were at your newsstand, or what came on in any of your one of one of your three available channels. But now you can't avoid knowing things about what's going on with Hollywood's hottest stars. It's almost like too much now.
00:21:39
Speaker
It is. I mean, I don't seek out celebrity gossip stuff at all, but like from standing in the line at the grocery store or even just like scrolling Reddit or whatever, even if it's just a headline. Just from that, I can tell way too many gossipy stories about celebrities that I don't know. I don't care. Exactly. But for some reason, this information is ingrained in us. Exactly. Yeah. And obviously, celebrity gossip has always been around, but there was kind of this soft lens on it.
00:22:03
Speaker
Hollywood was always seen as like dark and romantic. and Yeah. It's got glamour and sophistication. Oh, that's why I love old movies. Right. Yeah. But much of the darkest stuff we know was definitely not easy knowledge when these things were happening. We touched on some of this a bit when we were talking about The Wizard of Oz and the first couple of episodes. and They treated movie sets like factories and the stars were factory workers. The studios owned them. They dictated their lives.
00:22:29
Speaker
They forced them to take drugs for, you know, to say skinny or help them stay awake or whatever. But they paid them well. Some of them. Many actresses were even forced to have abortions to keep their squeaky clean starlet image. There's been gruesome murders, cold cases, abuse of all kinds. Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
And because it was easier to cover up, then we probably don't even know the half of it. So there's a lot, there's a lot of stories within the whole dark Hollywood. But yeah, so for this first one, I'm stepping into your nightmare. lo Okay. And I'm bringing you True Crime. Okay, awesome. I never thought you'd do a True Crime one. I'm excited. Are you familiar with Natalie Wood?
00:23:07
Speaker
No, sounds familiar though. Okay. This story is actually probably overdone, but I really love Natalie Wood, the actress, and I just wanted to. If I haven't heard it, then... So there. Yeah, no, I am actually just talking about that. So she was very much an it girl, like a true Hollywood star, even if you don't think you know her. She played the little girl, Susan Walker, in The Miracle on 34th Street.
00:23:29
Speaker
That's why she sounded familiar. Maria from West Side Story. Okay. Judy from Rebel Without a Cause with James Dean. And like, I mean, she's been in like 70 movies or something like that. But those are some of like the most known. Yeah. And not sure if it's as popular, but she played Gypsy Rose Lee in the original Gypsy, which is my personal favorite of hers.
00:23:48
Speaker
But she was a rare example of an actor who was successful from childhood to middle age. America watched her grow up. She was both old Hollywood and new Hollywood. Her acting career was truly stellar and everyone should watch everything she's done. You know, just celebrate her movies. There's a whole, whole bunch of them. You can find them on like all the streaming stuff. I feel bad because so much of her work has been overshadowed by what I'm about to say. And I feel like I'm contributing to it. So I just want to make sure that everybody knows to celebrate this amazing actress. So now we get into it. Unfortunately, things were sometimes rough off screen. She married actor Robert Wagner when she was 19 and he was in his early 20s. I actually read a few different accounts of what happened, which is kind of part of the whole fucking problem with this story. In one story, Natalie fled their home out of fear that he was going to kill her. Before they got married? This was
00:24:38
Speaker
the end of the marriage. In one story, Natalie, she she fled thinking he was going to kill her. And in another, Natalie had caught him in bed with another man. um But most of the things I found didn't say why they divorced after four years. For some reason, though, they remarried 10 years later in 1972. I feel like that was actually common with a lot of old Hollywood. Yeah. And Natalie told her sister, actress Lana Wood, that it was better than the devil she didn't know. So it was kind of one of those situations where It's like he's abusive, but at least I know it sets him off. Exactly. And you know you already know how to deal with this person's bullshit, and everybody has bullshit. By the way, I'm not condoning staying in abusive relationships. Nope. At all. Yep. Get the fuck out. There's helplines. We'll put one in the show notes.
00:25:23
Speaker
So fast forward to Thanksgiving of 1981. We've been here before. We have. Which means at this point I want to issue a correction for the Polybius episode. okay um I had said that Thanksgiving of 1981 was on November 21st. I was incorrect. I looked back at my sources and at a you know an actual calendar. And Thanksgiving of 1981 was on November 26th because on that same fateful day, that's when poor Brian Morrow became known for having the poops instead of getting a high score on Asteroid.
00:25:51
Speaker
ah if you'll remember. or guy So on that same day, Natalie Wood and Robert Wagner decided to go on one of their regular rich people yacht trips to the Catalina Islands. As you do. As you do. Rich people problems. Rich people problems. They invited several friends, but the only one who would take them up on it was Natalie's current co-star in the film she was working on, Christopher Walken. The only other person to join them was the, and I say captain loosely, but the captain of the boat.
00:26:19
Speaker
Dennis Davenne is the name. I think my brain might know what's happening. Okay, you listen to enough true crime stuff that I feel like there's no way you haven't heard the story. Yes. Okay. But I'm excited. Okay, good. Well, I mean, in a Yeah, in that way. It's always nervous laughter, guys. Seriously, we're not horrible. I swear. So the only other person on the boat was the captain sort of, I mean, I call him the captain because he was running the boat, but he didn't have like special training or anything like that. He was just like a dude. He didn't go to captain school or anything. He was just a dude handling the boat while the actors did their thing. And his name was Dennis Daven. So at this point, there's three men in Natalie Wood by herself. Correct. Okay.
00:26:54
Speaker
So now the next series of events has been told a few different ways by several different people. So I'm going to state the confirmed bits. And real quick, she was on the boat with who was she dating or Robert? She was married to Robert Wagner. So this is when was this the first marriage or second marriage? This is the second. Okay. So second marriage, Robert Wagner's on the boat.
00:27:12
Speaker
with the captain and and her. wife Yeah. And that's her current co-star with the movie she's working on. So yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to start with the confirmed bits first and then we'll kind of tease out the rest as we go. So they left on Friday, November 27th and the weather was not great. It was stormy and cold, which is the opposite of yacht weather. Exactly. And that's one of the bigger reasons why, you know, nobody else wanted to go is because it was just like that's it rough boat weather. So yeah, they left on November 27. On November 28, the four of them would walk in Wagner and Daven took the dinghy of the yacht to shore and they went to dinner at a restaurant called Doug's Harbor Reef.
00:27:51
Speaker
The manager later said that they were all trashed and he was concerned about them making it back to the yacht on the dinghy, but they did make it back. Around 11 p.m., they noticed that Natalie was missing, as was the dinghy. At 1.30 a.m., a ship-to-shore call was made.
00:28:07
Speaker
Then two hours later than that, at 3.30 a.m., the Coast Guard was called. At 8 a.m., on November 29th, Natalie was found washed up on shore wearing a nightgown socks and a pink puffy coat. Whoa. The dinghy was also found floating elsewhere. So that's what we know for that.
00:28:26
Speaker
So wait, cause like I said, I remember a little bit, some pieces of those, but not much. I'm about to fill it all in. Okay. But but please go ahead. You go. Okay. Okay. At that time, Wagner, Walken and Daven all gave the same story. They didn't know what happened because Wood had gone to bed before them and she was alone when she went missing.
00:28:43
Speaker
They theorized that the dinghy wasn't tied properly and was banging against the yacht which had annoyed Wood earlier in the trip. They were thinking she was fed up with it, went to tie it back, slipped, hit her head and drowned. Her autopsy showed her blood alcohol level was at 0.14 for reference. DWIs happen at 0.08. Yeah.
00:29:01
Speaker
There were also traces of motion sickness pills and a painkiller, like not an overabundance, but combined with alcohol. Yeah, and extra drowsy. She would have been an extra trashed. She had bruising on her body and an abrasion on her face. The coroner ruled the cause of death to be drowning in a hypothermia.
00:29:18
Speaker
The case was closed, despite there being some bits that didn't add up. The bruising was not... They assumed that it was bruising that happened of her falling out of the boat, yeah but it was kind of inconsistent with that. Wagner was known for being the jealous type, and there had been rumors about a possible something between Natalie Wood and Christopher Walken.
00:29:38
Speaker
And remember that they had invited a bunch of people, but he was the only one who had joined them. Yeah. Additionally, Natalie's sister wasn't buying any of it. Natalie had been afraid of water since she was a child. Lana claimed that their mother went to a fortune teller when she lived in China in her youth and was told that her child would be known around the world and someone would drown.
00:29:58
Speaker
Their mother told both of the girls a story. And then add to this fact that when she was 11, Natalie Wood was filming a movie called The Green Promise. And in a scene where it was storming, she was thrown off of a bridge and nearly drowned. And then there's even a news clip of her and later as an adult saying that she was terrified of dark water. Lana stands by the idea that Natalie would have never gone to a precarious part of the boat in a storm at night while intoxicated while wearing a nightgown and fucking socks. So like, yes, but like, I also feel like when I'm intoxicated, it does make you a little more careless and brave. Of your biggest fucking fear ever? I mean, I've killed quite a few roaches when I'm intoxicated. And that is when you wouldn't have had the bravery. Exactly. Okay. Well, so having said all of that, I just said, we're going to fast forward again to 2011. Okay. Whoa.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah, um Dennis Daven claimed he lied about everything and wanted to come clean. He just that was the captain, right? Yes. He said he couldn't he just couldn't keep living with himself unless he told the truth. So he added some additional details to the timeline. So I'm just gonna go through that. Wagner instantly took a dislike to walk in as they approached the boat. Apparently he had this like pea coat with a pop collar and was being Christopher Walken in 1981 and you know but also like how awkward to like be have been invited and you're like the only one that shows up and you're like I don't really want to be here with this couple because kind of weird but also like you don't want to leave because then that makes it even more weird unless they're like really good friends I don't know how familiar you are with Christopher Walken but I just get the feeling that nothing bothers that guy I mean I feel like that's more of like his persona like yeah yeah
00:31:37
Speaker
but there sorry Fair, sorry. Past that, all of them drank very heavily on the entire trip. Wagner and Wood had been fighting very loudly at the restaurant that they went to on Saturday. When they returned to the yacht, they started to settle in for more drinks. And Wagner lost his shit and broke a wine bottle. Daven inferred that Wagner didn't appreciate the easy camaraderie between Walken and Wood.
00:31:58
Speaker
and then was just getting belligerent about it. Natalie had had enough and fucked off to her in Wagner's room. Wagner followed her in their endeavor and heard them fighting very loudly and heard a lot of banging around. He was worried that it was getting out of hand but was also scared of Robert Wagner. Wagner and Natalie migrated out to the rear of the boat where they continued arguing and then suddenly everything went silent. Wagner casually just said she slipped and just leave her, just leave her, she'll figure it out.
00:32:26
Speaker
Wait, she he was like, she slept to fall off the boat, like fuck it. Daven tried to go looking for her, but Wagner stopped him. He wouldn't let him call it in. He wouldn't let him turn on the searchlights. He said that Wagner sat down with him and walk in and made sure they all had their story straight. Wagner said that they all said the same thing, then they had nothing to worry about. Working through all of that is why there was such a huge delay in them calling for help. So it was like 11 o'clock is when she was very clearly not there. Yeah. And the Coast Guard didn't get called until 3 30.
00:32:56
Speaker
So yeah, they that I mean, that's a huge gap of what the fuck. But the problem with all of that is that Dennis Davenport changed the story. He can't be held as a credible witness. Also, it doesn't look great that he wrote a book about it and made bank. So yeah, so that's the thing. The restaurant staff that was working that night at the Harbor Reef has since corroborated hearing shouting on the water at around 11pm, but that was inconclusive as well. I just want to say how do they remember from that exact night that long ago?
00:33:24
Speaker
probably because that was a very jarring incident for everybody that worked at that restaurant. and Because it's these famous people being belligerent because they were bad acting the whole time they were in the restaurant. So you know you might remember if a Hollywood star is in there being a dipshit. And then the afterwards, of course, you know that the police have come in and questioned them and and all sorts of stuff. I mean, there this is probably you know like seared into their memory, right? Fair. Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
So the case was reopened and the accidental listing on her on Natalie Woods autopsy was changed to undetermined. Law enforcement also noted that the bruising on Natalie's body was consistent with abuse. Christopher Walken gave his statement to law enforcement with the condition that it remains sealed. So aside from his very, very few public statements about this, we don't really know his side of things. He's never been listed as a person of interest. Robert Wagner was listed as a person of interest when the case was reopened, but no longer is.
00:34:19
Speaker
He wrote an autobiography in 2008 before Daverin came forward, where he described the events of the trip in ways that matched his original statement. He did admit in the book, though he did not to law enforcement at the time, that he and Natalie fought on the boat. He wasn't worried about Natalie and Walken really, but he did suspect she was having an emotional affair. The case is still open, but it doesn't seem like we will ever know what really happened on that boat. But I
Concluding Reflections
00:34:42
Speaker
mean, what to me, it's like if Walken, please don't sue me anybody.
00:34:46
Speaker
If Joaquin went in and had this conversation with law enforcement on the the idea that it would remain sealed, like even if he had told them, like yes, everything the captain said was true, what difference would it make if it had to stay sealed? They can't use it in court, right?
00:35:04
Speaker
I don't know. Or maybe they could use it to continue to investigate. But it seemed like after that conversation with him, that they laid off of Wagner, right? And so no, it wasn't quite that it's just timeline. But yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, the timeline, it was huge from 1981 to I mean, really kind of current. I believe both. Yeah, Robert Wagner is de is still alive. and We know Christopher Waffen still alive and still acting Lana Wood, her sister is still alive. to You know, Dennis Daverin still alive. But they're not young, right? Like they were in their 40s. Well, Dennis Davenne was he was in his early 20s, I think at the time, but they're not young. That's crazy to write a book covering your entire. Yeah. So but yeah, that's it. We will probably never get like a super clear answer to what happened. That could. but Yeah, that's like probably the worst way to die for me, like being stuck in open water. Like, Oh, my God.
00:35:57
Speaker
Yeah. It's possible she was knocked out before she... Okay, I know that we don't know. She still had water in her lungs though. Oh yeah, she drowned. She definitely had water in her lungs, yeah. That's what I imagine. like oh yeah so that's ah It's a real bummer. It is a real bummer. Now I kind of feel like an asshole. For bumming me out. Yeah, but you know this is the nightmare cottage and we talk about dark stuff. That's true.
00:36:29
Speaker
Do you have a palate cleanser today? I do have a palate cleanser today. Last time you asked me some questions. Man. Now I'm gonna ask you some questions. I'm not as good at answering questions as you are.
00:36:43
Speaker
I don't understand what that means. You'll see. Okay. Okay. Well, I have a few of these and, you know, you can pass. What is a childhood memory that makes you smile? When I was really little, I have to say maybe like six or seven.
00:37:00
Speaker
There was, I mean, it makes me smile, but it's also kind of creepy. So me and my sister lived in apartments with my parents and it was just me and my sister. And we lived on the top floor of like a three story apartment building. So it was in two, maybe it was four stories, but we would get our bikes from our balcony. And like I said, I was maybe six or seven. I still had training wheels on my pink bike.
00:37:27
Speaker
And then my sister had her bike and she's two years older than me. And so we'd take our bikes and we'd go downstairs and we would ride them around the complex. And there was this area right at the end of the complex where there was like a little wooded area. And right in that wooded area, there was almost like ah a little shed, but it was like just a wooden shed and it had a swing in it. It was really weird. Hmm. Yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
I remember it looked weird. But the fun part was riding around on bikes with my sister and then exploring. But looking back, I'm like, what the fuck was is that thing? But I remember it because my sister was like, stay away from it. And I was like, OK, but it was just really cool looking.
00:38:09
Speaker
That's fascinating. I want to know what that was for. Yeah. Maybe I'll like put some fillers out on Reddit. Did anyone live in these apartment complexes around this time or remember this thing? Yeah. If you actually do that and find out, let me know. Yeah. Okay. So next, where is a place that you would really like to travel?
00:38:31
Speaker
Honestly, like part of me wants to say like Italy, but I feel that the history, being able to see the history there would be amazing, but I also feel like Europe is so crowded with tourists that it almost ruins the magic.
00:38:48
Speaker
So I think if I really thought about my introverted self, like idealistically, I would want to go to Italy, right? But my introverted self would say like somewhere like Norway or Ireland or you know like something like that. You just want to go somewhere in Europe and soak up the old shit and yeah look at the beautiful whatever. beautiful. I'm not so much about old architecture. I really like seeing like old rocks and stones and, and things like that. Like I like seeing old geological formations or even old structures, like not so much old modern day structures. Does that make sense? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Who is someone you look up to and why? You. What?
00:39:33
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm not going to look at you while I say this, because I'll get weird. But like I feel like you're someone who's very resilient. like You have not only been through a lot in your life and are relatively unfucked up for it, but you also put up with a lot from people, including me, day to day.
00:39:52
Speaker
but where you I feel like you you stuff so much of yourself down but are still such a happy, extroverted, excited person. And I feel like for all your cynicism, you are still a very a person who has a very positive outlook. And that's very hard for me to not take in everything around me that is bogging me down and letting it affect the people around me. You're gonna make me cry.
00:40:20
Speaker
Sorry, I don't know if you want to put this in the podcast, but yeah, like definitely that. Thanks. My heart's all warm and cozy. I'm not extroverted, but I'm really glad it comes across. I mean, youre when we're together, you're the- Yeah, but you're my person.
00:40:38
Speaker
You're like one of the people in my life that is like you're you are a comfort blanket. Yeah. So it's it's you know, my introversion doesn't count. Okay. What is something you have on your bucket list?
00:40:51
Speaker
on my bucket list. A thing to do or an adventure to have. So it sounds weird but Ace and I have really wanted to take bash on the same California trip we had for our anniversary. Like we spent seven days in California and we literally just drove from San Francisco to San Diego and we stopped in a lot of places along the way and most of it was just very scenic and beautiful and It was just comfort. There was a lot of comfort there, and it would be nice to do that with him, I think, because it is something that opened my eyes to the idea that there is so much, so much more out there, mostly in the nature and geology of it all. but you know it's just it was just It was so nice, and I would love to do that for him.
00:41:43
Speaker
That's awesome. yeah One more. What's a hobby you would like to try that you have not yet? So I really, really want to try pottery. I've always wanted to do pottery. My grandmother actually used to have kiln in her. My mom had one in our garage. We didn't have any. Yeah, we had one too. Yeah, she had a kiln in her. It's funny because she had a shed in her backyard in Florida where she had her washer dryer in her kiln and she would, you know, do a hauler potter there. She also worked for a pottery store where, you know, they sold a lot of like unfinished or some like finished and glazed stuff. So it's always been very interesting to me to do that kind of thing, you know, and and I always saw her molds and stuff and I always wanted to try it. But it is one of those things that like
00:42:25
Speaker
you really need to like take a class to do or have a kiln. Like I started looking at oven bake pottery. Not the same. It's not the same. No. And I i actually do like, it's funny, my parents still hold onto these. Like I used to make a little figures out of clay. Was it polymer clay? I don't know what kind of, but it's like it it it hardens and dries and you can put a sealant on it. So I used to make little animal figures out of those at when I was younger. Yeah.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah, my mom was huge into ceramics when I was a kid. Not not specifically pottery and like, form i mean but she did have molds and she would pour her own. And um like, it was a whole thing. I definitely get the can't get into anything a little bit yeah from my mother. My mother is why it' she she's just as obsessive as I am about the shit she's into. So yeah, no, that's cool. yeah That's cool. I'd do some pottery. Yeah, I think we're we're all murdered out today.
00:43:21
Speaker
There was quite a bit of murder this time. Yeah. Yeah. Or apparently accidental. I don't know. I don't, I don't buy it. Whatever. i
00:43:32
Speaker
ah Well, this is the end of our, our nightmare sweet dreams. If you have topic requests, book or movie recommendations, or just want to say hi, email us at nightmarecottage at gmail dot.com or visit our website at nightmarecottage.com. Sweet dreams.
00:43:53
Speaker
Please!