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Interview with Allan Sparkes CV,OAM,VA,FRSN, awarded The Cross of Valour in 1998 for the brave rescue of a young boy.
9 Plays3 months ago
Allan is one of Australia’s most highly decorated citizens, being one of only five Australians in the past 49 years to receive Australia’s highest bravery decoration, The Cross of Valour, awarded in 1998 for saving the life of a small boy trapped in a flooded storm water pipe in Coffs Harbour. In 2016, for another lifesaving rescue, Allan was awarded Australia’s fourth highest bravery decoration, the Commendation for Brave Conduct for his rescue of an aboriginal man from the path of an incoming train at Redfern railway Station. In 2017 Allan was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia (OAM) for service to Mental Health Support organisations and the community. He is the recipient of the NSW Police Commissioners Valour Award (VA) and the Royal Humane Society of NSW Galleghan Award. He is one of only 10 Australians to receive the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal, the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee Medal and the Kings Coronation Medal. In September 2022, Allan was invited by St James Palace to attend the funeral of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II where he took part in the Chivalry and Gallantry Procession during the funeral proceedings. Allan is a 20 year veteran of the NSW Police force, and of recent times, a Deputy Commissioner of the Mental Health Commission of NSW.
"Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions of mental health issues, including topics related to suicide, which may be distressing for some listeners. Please take care while listening, and remember support is available if you need it.
If you or someone you know is struggling, consider reaching out to one of these resources:
- Lifeline – 13 11 14 (24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention)
- Beyond Blue – 1300 22 4636 (support for mental health issues, available 24/7)
- Suicide Call Back Service – 1300 659 467 (24/7 support for people at risk of suicide and those affected by it)
- Kids Helpline – 1800 55 1800 (free counselling for ages 5–25, available 24/7)
- MensLine Australia – 1300 78 99 78 (24/7 support for men dealing with family and relationship issues)
For young people, Headspace offers online and in-person mental health support at headspace.org.au.
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Transcript
Introduction and Mission
00:00:09
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G'day, I'm Trent Maxwell.
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And I'm Lee Mason.
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Welcome you to our Live, Learn, Survive podcast.
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Since 2018, Lee and I traveled the globe and met face to face with 33,000 children in six countries across three continents.
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We created a series of award-winning children's books, a global online education program, and are founders of the Live, Learn, Survive charity, all focused on teaching children and young adults life skills that will not only help themselves, but help others too.
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We're on a mission to spread awareness about fire, water and first aid education to inspire the next generation of first responders.
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So join us for the next half an hour with some fun, inspiration and kindness and we'll try and learn something too.
Introducing Alan Sparks
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How are you this week, Lee?
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Welcome aboard.
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Maxie, I am great.
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How are you, my friend?
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Good.
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We've got another special guest this week.
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One of our favourite days, Maxie.
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We love it when we've got a guest to talk to.
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And I'm feeling a little bit, this is a very important person, I'm feeling a little bit nervous, Maxie, at even reading the bio.
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So, yeah, I am so excited for this chat.
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It's going to be amazing and help people.
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So, yeah, great day.
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Yeah, it's probably one of our most distinguished guests that we've had.
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Absolutely.
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Up there with Professor Greg White.
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Yes, definitely.
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They're competition for the number one spot.
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So shall I get into the bio and introduce this incredible man?
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Yes, of course.
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Let's do it.
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Okay.
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So, Maxi, today we are joined by Mr. Alan Sparks, CV, OAM, VA and FRSM.
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So Alan is one of Australia's most highly decorated citizens, being one of only five Australians who
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in the past 49 years to receive Australia's highest bravery decoration, which is the Cross of Valour.
Heroic Rescue
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Alan was awarded the Cross of Valour in 1998 for saving the life of a small boy trapped in a flooded stormwater pipe in Coffs Harbour.
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In 2016, for another life-saving rescue, Alan was awarded Australia's fourth highest bravery decoration,
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the commendation for brave conduct for his rescue of an Aboriginal man from the path of an incoming train at Redfern Railway Station.
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In 2017, Alan was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia for service to mental health support organisations and the community.
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He is the recipient of the New South Wales Police Commissioners Valour Award and the Royal Humane Society of New South Wales Galligan Award.
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He's one of only 10 Australians to receive the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal, the Queen's Platinum Jubilee Medal,
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and will receive the King's Coronation Medal.
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In September 2022, Alan was invited by St James Palace to attend the funeral of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, where he took part in the chivalry and gallantry procession during the funeral proceedings.
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Alan is a 20-year veteran of the New South Wales Police Force and of recent times a Deputy Commissioner of the Mental Health Commission of New South Wales.
Mental Health and Training Programs
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He's a qualified trainer of the Mental Health Commission of Canada,
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mental health programmes, The Working Mind and The Working Mind for First Responders.
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One of the founding partners of the mental health training programme, Operational Readiness for First Responders, the foundation patron of the Thomas Kelly Youth Foundation, a fellow of the Royal Society of New South Wales, chairman of the National Police Bravery Award Committee,
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a member of the Mental Health Commission Suicide Prevention Advisory Panel, member of the New South Wales Police Mental Health Intervention Team, and a member of the MacKillip Foundation National Advisory Committee.
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Patron of the Heart to Heart Foundation, patron of the Police Over 35s Rugby Team, and as well as all of that is an Australian Day Ambassador and an Ambassador for Cook and Borough Kids.
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He's the former non-exec director of the Gidget Foundation and a former ambassador of Beyond Blue and Soldier On.
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As if that wasn't enough, he's an international yachtman who sailed his own yacht from England to Australia in 2009-2010 and is the author of The Cost of Bravery.
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So welcome, Alan.
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We are absolutely thrilled to have you here and really appreciate you sparing some time for us.
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So,
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What I'll do, I'll jump in then straight away with question one.
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Alan, how long have you been speaking to groups about mental health?
Public Speaking and Advocacy
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And tell us about operational readiness.
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My first foray into professional speaking, Lee, was in 2011.
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I came to Sydney to speak at a conference and that was my first time sort of in a professional role in that sense.
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And I'd been a lecturer at the detective's training course for some time in my police career.
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I'd been a rugby coach.
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I was used to being in front of people and speaking to people, but
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The first time of being in front of a room in a professional sense, that was a whole new experience and one that I really enjoyed.
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And whilst I touched on my lived experience of mental ill health, I also spoke about some other things that had happened in my life.
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And then I was a volunteer for Beyond Blue.
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And then after my book was published in 2013,
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I became an ambassador for Beyond Blue.
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So that's when I started to talk about my lived experience of mental ill health in a very clear, distinct way.
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And the key message that I think I gave is that I gave people hope that you could actually recover from mental ill health and mental illness.
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And that sort of developed along the way.
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up until I started doing specific programs such as the operational readiness program.
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And I delivered a sort of a version of that to police forces, first responders around Australia and also internationally.
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And I was really, really proud of the information that I was giving because it was all about prevention and proactivity based on my own lived experiences and a bit of science.
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And then the operational readiness program itself where I was fortunate, Maxie and the lifeguards, that started in 2019.
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I'd given a couple of Beyond Blue talks to the lifeguards and then Hoppo came to me and said, Sparksie, can you develop a training program?
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So I spoke to a good friend of mine and a colleague, Dr. David Sedd, who's an eminent clinical psychologist.
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And Dave and I put the program together and then fortunately Waverly Council picked it up.
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And we started this phase program where we educated people about why they can become chronically stressed or impacted by their workplace and what they can do to build resilience and endurance and cope with the adversities that they face in their careers.
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So we started Waverley Council and we've been training Maxi and the guys there for the last five years.
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We also now do Rambit Council, Wagga Council,
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And then a modified version of that, I'm now running a pilot program for New South Wales Police across the state.
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So that's where I think I've really found my, how do you say, even at my age, I've found my true calling, I think, helping people understand the why.
00:07:43
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I do love the chats that you and David do.
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All of us lifeguards, we're pretty close as it is with the busy summers we have.
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But when we have induction, you guys chat, it just brings everyone together and we always get a lot of stuff off our chest.
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So I'm very fortunate over the years to have worked with you guys.
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So yeah, it's great what you guys do.
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Isn't it incredible about how things come along at a time when you're not looking, things just evolve and happen and, like you say, you've found what you believe is your calling, which is just incredible.
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It fascinates me how things like that happen.
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It's an old cliche.
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It's truly meant to be.
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Truly, absolutely.
00:08:30
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Mates, next question.
00:08:32
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How did your time in the New South Wales Police Force shape you personally and professionally?
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I absolutely loved my time in the cops, except for the last part of the course.
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That wasn't too pleasant.
00:08:45
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But being a cop was something that I joined up when I was 19 years of age.
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I left the shearing sheds in the Central West.
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I came to Sydney.
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I was so green.
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I was so raw.
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And it exposed me to...
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Certainly the highs and lows of life, not only for me personally, but also professionally.
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And also it exposed me to all the highs and lows in people's lives.
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The things, as you know, Maxie, from your time as a lifeguard, you become exposed to so many different experiences and they have an impact on you, some positive, some negative.
00:09:22
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But ultimately, it taught me a lot about life, the fragility of life, how life can be whisked away in a heartbeat, and how important it is to value life and have your values and your moral integrity and all those things were critically important.
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So I think for me, for my personality, being a police officer helped me understand myself and helped me
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utilize my values that I feel very, very strongly about.
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And, you know, I'm really, really proud of my time in the COPS.
00:09:58
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It shattered me when I lost my career and it took me many, many years to try and find myself again.
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But ultimately I believe that the person I am today is because of my time in the COPS.
00:10:11
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Yeah, that's awesome.
00:10:13
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And I can say with the lifeguarding stories, but also with Fire and Rescue,
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You know, some stories stick with you, some don't.
00:10:23
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But yeah, the longer you're in there, unfortunately, I'm coming up to nine years in January.
00:10:29
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And, you know, Lee would know that the start of this year or through this year, there's been some big jobs and yeah, some affect you more than others, but it's how you deal with it.
00:10:39
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My, how I deal with it and which we, one of your questions soon we're going to be talking about, but how I deal with the stress is a lot of exercise and talking about it.
00:10:47
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But yeah, I look forward to hearing how you do it once we get to that question later in the chat.
00:10:53
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So over to you, Lee.
00:10:54
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Absolutely.
Rescue Experience
00:10:55
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Yeah.
00:10:55
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So,
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I mentioned this in the intro, and I've read the story.
00:10:59
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I've been doing some research online, Alan.
00:11:05
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The rescue in 1990, I'm not sure, was it 1996 or 1998 that led you to receiving the Cross of Valor?
00:11:09
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1996, Lee.
00:11:09
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It was 1996, so that led you to receiving the Cross of Valor.
00:11:23
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Yeah, that is certainly a day that I will never forget.
00:11:28
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I don't want to forget it.
00:11:30
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It's such a good story.
00:11:33
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I'm still in touch with that young man now.
00:11:36
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He was a young boy.
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He was only 11 at the time.
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But I'm still in touch with him every day.
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He gets up before sunrise every morning and takes a photo of the sunrise and puts it on social media.
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And either I just like it or make a little comment.
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And Deb and I went to his wedding a few years ago.
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So it's been an extraordinary connection and it goes very deep.
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We don't have the time today to talk about how deep it does go, but it blows your mind how life and interactions can take place.
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But I remember the day vividly.
00:12:14
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We'd had five days of torrential rain at Coffs Harbour.
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the big East Coast low.
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And I did a job in the morning with my workmate, Gav Dengate, and we executed a search warrant, recovered some jewellery from a dear old lady who'd had it stolen from a nursing home, and we got that back to her and
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We're just back in the mirror having a cup of tea.
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Life was great.
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We've done a good job, feeling really good about ourselves.
00:12:42
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And a call came over the radio.
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I'm not sure what your call is, Maxie, but when there's an urgent job for the cops, you hear two distinct beeps over the radio.
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And we heard those.
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A call came, any car to assist child swept under a storm water pipe.
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normally that would be a job that the general duties the uniform guys would would be first on scene but we were there we just threw out our tea cups in the in the sink and jumped in the car and raced down to an industrial part of coffs harbour there were two little boys there shivering and shaking in the freezing cold and a workman was there with them um and they were very visibly distressed and you know we said oh what's happened they said um
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Jai just disappeared and we said, where?
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And they pointed to this whirlpool in the floodwaters.
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And I said, what do you mean?
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They said, oh, he just knocked off his boogie board and got sucked down into there.
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I'm going, oh, my God.
00:13:39
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And I just didn't know what to do at that time, to be honest.
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And then the workman said, oh, look, if we pull the covers off over the road, you can see down into the pipe.
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So...
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Gav and I, we threw our guns and handcuffs in the car and we jumped down into this pit and we could see down into the pipe.
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You know, the floodwaters were backing up behind us, but we could see down.
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We thought we could see the little boy's body way off into the pipe.
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And the pipe is, just to put into context, you know, it's about the diameter of a hula hoop.
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It's not all that big, but...
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I think the decision, pretty much unspoken between Gavin and I, was like, we've got to get this kid out because if he's dead, we might be able to revive him.
00:14:22
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If he's alive, we've got to get him out before he gets swept away and we'll never see him again.
00:14:28
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So Gav said, look, I'll go, I'll go.
00:14:30
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I said, no, it's all right, mate.
00:14:31
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I was a senior man.
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I said, no, I'll do it.
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So one of the workmen, he sort of produced this rope, which in hindsight was more like a piece of string.
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And I didn't know anything about bow lines and any of that sort of stuff.
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I tied this knot around my waist.
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And I said to Gav, you let me go down the pipe, I'll get hold of him and then I'll give it three tugs as a signal to haul us back.
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He said, yep, good, great idea.
00:14:55
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So I laid down on the pipe and the water just started to wash me like a leaf down the pipe.
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And I looked at the rope and I realised I could feel the pressure.
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I thought, this thing's going to snap.
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So I frantically tugged on the rope and pulled me back.
00:15:09
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And by that stage, the SES had arrived, the police had arrived.
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And I thought, you bitty, the professionals here, they can take over and I'll get out of this mess.
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And they just put a bigger rope around my waist and sent me back down the pipe again.
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So...
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I then lay on my back and was just washed down this pipe.
00:15:28
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It was estimated I went down about 80 metres down the pipe.
00:15:32
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And then in my torchlight, what we thought was a kid's body just turned out to be some debris that had been trapped and was giving these weird shadows.
00:15:40
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So at that point, I started to pull on the rope.
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They stopped letting the rope go.
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So I came to a sudden stop in the drain, but then I dammed myself in.
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So...
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I was in a really precarious position and the pipe started to fill up very, very quickly because of my body displacement, the shape of the pipe.
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And I then really started to become terrified that I was going to drown.
00:16:09
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And I started to think, I hope the guy from the SES knows how to tie a knot properly because if this thing comes apart, I am dead.
00:16:19
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But then it was a case of having to get back up the pipe so...
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Because I was so engulfed in water, I felt as though I was starting to drown and they were pulling me back under the water.
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And I'd arch my back and sort of create a little air pocket, grab it, just suck a little bit of air, get under the water again, and they pulled me back.
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But what I didn't realize it was Gavin who got into the pipe himself who saw this water starting to rise and realized that I was trapped.
00:16:45
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So I always say I owe my life to Gavin because if he hadn't had the guts to get in the pipe, he wouldn't have seen what was going on and I would have definitely drowned in there.
00:16:55
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So we got back to the surface eventually and then I thought there's no way that this kid can be alive.
00:17:02
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And I was saying to the other police, you know, we need to get a map to find where we can access the pipe to try and find his body.
00:17:11
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That's, you know, it was just going to be a body retrieval.
00:17:13
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I didn't believe there was any hope.
00:17:15
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Then suddenly a call came over the radio to say they can hear a child screaming down at the highway.
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And I thought, well, it's got to be him.
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So we just jumped in the cars and we raced down to the highway, which was all blocked off.
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And there were just people everywhere and cars.
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And we jumped out of the car.
00:17:33
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And I remember seeing Michael Mara, a paramedic.
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He was lying down on the road with his head down a manhole.
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And I thought, bloody hell, that's weird.
00:17:41
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And as soon as I got out of the car, I could hear the screams of this child above all the noise of the people there and everything else.
00:17:48
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These screams were just so piercing.
00:17:52
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And Gavin and I raced over and we looked down and the water was bubbling up in the manhole, but the screams of a child were coming up through the water.
00:17:59
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And it was the most bizarre thing.
00:18:01
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My brain was, it couldn't process, how can somebody be alive but under the water?
00:18:06
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This doesn't make sense, but...
00:18:08
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So I was thinking, God, what are we going to do?
00:18:12
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And then somebody produced a ladder and I don't know why, but I took my suit pants off and I'm there in my flash boxer shorts.
00:18:22
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And I remember saying, Gavin, he disappeared down the ladder and disappeared under the water.
00:18:29
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And I remember saying to somebody, I need a scuba tank and some regulators.
00:18:34
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I thought, if we're going underwater, that's what I need.
00:18:38
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So I followed Gav down under the water.
00:18:42
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It was like you couldn't see anything.
00:18:45
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And I just remember swimming around, feeling around.
00:18:47
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And then suddenly, I've come up into the junction of this six storm water pipes.
00:18:52
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And Gav's in the pipe there, and he's sort of looking around
00:18:57
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I think we had a torch there.
00:18:59
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I can't remember clearly.
00:19:01
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No, we didn't.
00:19:01
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We didn't have a torch there.
00:19:02
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That's right.
00:19:03
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Because it's pitch black and the water is just pouring in on top of us and the water is roaring and it's freezing cold and pitch black.
00:19:12
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And then the screams of this kid are just reverberating round and round in this pit where we were.
00:19:17
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It was the most terrifying thing because these screams of this child who was dying basically were just horrific.
00:19:25
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But then we just started crawling up pipes trying to think, you know, which one is he up, which one is he up?
00:19:31
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And one of the pipes I went up, I thought I can just hear him a little bit clearer, this has got to be the pipe.
00:19:37
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And we were very conscious that if we got another downpour of rain, the whole thing fills up and everyone dies.
00:19:42
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So I remember, like, not panicking, we've got to do this right now.
00:19:48
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We haven't got time to muck around, we've got to do it.
00:19:52
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So I said to Gav, look, go back up to the surface, try and find a way into this pipe.
00:19:56
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This has got to be the one.
00:19:58
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And I really regret saying that in many ways because I really would have loved Gav to have been there for the ultimate moment where we got him, but you do it the best you do.
00:20:06
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And then Michael Mother, paramedic, he came down and I think Michael brought a torch with him.
00:20:12
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And he made me tie the rope back around myself and then I started to crawl on my fingernails and toenails, pretty much laying on my tummy but like leopard crawling up this pipe because I couldn't get a grip on anything and the water's coming against me trying to push me back.
00:20:29
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And the kid's screaming and the paramedic's screaming, you know, have you got him yet?
00:20:33
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You got him yet?
00:20:34
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And I'm trying to tell the kid to shut up.
00:20:36
Speaker
I'm trying to tell Michael to shut up.
00:20:38
Speaker
And I really started to think, I'm not gonna get there.
00:20:42
Speaker
I was becoming physically exhausted, just trying to claw my way to this kid and push the torch in front of me.
00:20:51
Speaker
And then I flashed my torch up and I saw this little face and I stayed every time.
00:20:57
Speaker
It was like a face of a little ghost, this little boy's face.
00:21:00
Speaker
And that's all I saw.
00:21:02
Speaker
And he's just screaming and crying.
00:21:05
Speaker
And I don't think he had any idea what was happening because he's visually impaired and his glasses got washed off when he got sucked into the pipe.
00:21:14
Speaker
And bear in mind, by this stage, he's 600 metres down the pipe from where he got washed in.
00:21:18
Speaker
And he'd been there for about 45 minutes in the pitch dark, hanging on to this piece of wood that had been jammed across the pipe, just screaming for his life.
00:21:28
Speaker
And he was just...
00:21:29
Speaker
beyond comprehension, there was no way to communicate with him at that point.
00:21:35
Speaker
And then I just kept crawling and crawling and crawling.
00:21:38
Speaker
And I thought, I was terrified I wasn't gonna get there.
00:21:41
Speaker
I started to pray to God to help me to get there.
00:21:45
Speaker
And I've finally been able to calm him down enough to communicate.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I said, mate, just come to me, come to me.
00:21:54
Speaker
And because of the junction, the pipe, he's able to get into the pipe that I was in and the water just washed him straight in my arms.
00:22:00
Speaker
And I remember just grabbing him.
00:22:02
Speaker
I mean, he wasn't going to get past me because I was blocking the drone again.
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:06
Speaker
And I remember grabbing him in my arms and I just said, you say thank you, God.
00:22:11
Speaker
Even though I'm not religiously or I'm a very spiritual person, I just said, just say thank you, God.
00:22:17
Speaker
And he said, oh, thank you, God.
00:22:19
Speaker
And he started bawling his eyes out and I started to bawl my eyes out.
Rescue Impact and Bond
00:22:23
Speaker
Just the emotion of having this kid in my arms after all he'd been through, after all Gavin and I had been through and Michael had been through, it was just extraordinary.
00:22:34
Speaker
I had this kid in my arms and I couldn't believe it.
00:22:37
Speaker
I thought, wow, he's alive.
00:22:40
Speaker
So somehow I sort of pushed him under my arm and he then got washed down to where Michael was.
00:22:47
Speaker
And Michael quickly assessed him and then he swam him back
00:22:52
Speaker
to the manhole and Michael got out first and he's in his full ambo kit and he's saturated naturally.
00:23:00
Speaker
And then all the SES around and police and the crowds and his mum was there and they reached down and Michael literally pulls his kit out of the drain like a drowned rat and then sort of carries him over and puts him on the gurney.
00:23:14
Speaker
They wrap them up in an emergency blanket and his mum just collapses on top of him.
00:23:19
Speaker
Meanwhile, I'm sort of making my way back to the manhole to come out.
00:23:23
Speaker
And I only saw this on the TV footage later.
00:23:27
Speaker
And then I crawled out, back up the manhole.
00:23:32
Speaker
I don't know where Gav was.
00:23:34
Speaker
I just got us back into the car as quickly as I could.
00:23:38
Speaker
And I remember a journalist coming over and talking to me.
00:23:40
Speaker
But what she said, what I said, I've got no idea because my brain, it's frapped by this stage.
00:23:48
Speaker
And I remember being driven back to the police station in the police car and I'm just quietly sobbing to myself.
00:23:56
Speaker
And then Gav was in the car, he was in the back seat.
00:24:00
Speaker
And then we pull up at the police station and my wife was also a detective.
00:24:05
Speaker
She was in her office looking across, saw the car pulled up, but she'd had her radio turned off.
00:24:10
Speaker
So she had no idea what had been going on.
00:24:13
Speaker
And she saw Gav get out holding his gun and handcuffs just in his suit pants.
00:24:18
Speaker
It was clearly saturated.
00:24:20
Speaker
Then I get out in my boxer shorts holding my gun and handcuffs and I've got everything I've blown all over my back where it's been cut from the fire.
00:24:29
Speaker
And Deb's going, what in the hell have these two been doing?
00:24:33
Speaker
But by the time she got up, got across to the crime scene unit where we were, I was in the bottom of the shower, just curled up in a ball, just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing.
00:24:43
Speaker
And she just turned the shower off and just grabbed me.
00:24:47
Speaker
And she had no idea, just no idea what was going on.
00:24:49
Speaker
Obviously, she found out in due course.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I just wanted to get home and have a really good shower and get clean.
00:24:57
Speaker
And then...
00:24:59
Speaker
we went straight up to the hospital to see the little boy to make sure he was okay.
00:25:03
Speaker
And we spoke to his mum and he was, he was just shattered psychologically, physically.
00:25:09
Speaker
He was, he was absolutely shattered.
00:25:12
Speaker
And we spoke to his mum and she was just so grateful.
00:25:15
Speaker
And we have a really solid relationship all these years later.
00:25:20
Speaker
And then it was back to work and, you know, the media's there wanting to do interviews and,
00:25:25
Speaker
And we went out for lunch and had lunch, had a few beers and didn't do much work that afternoon and went back to the pub.
00:25:31
Speaker
It'll be hammered that night.
00:25:34
Speaker
Wow.
00:25:35
Speaker
What a story, Alan.
00:25:37
Speaker
What a story.
00:25:41
Speaker
What kind of period of time was that over, like an hour or, you know, what kind of from you first being on scene to actually getting him out?
00:25:52
Speaker
Look, I think...
00:25:54
Speaker
I'd estimate probably an hour and a half.
00:25:59
Speaker
It's pretty well they can correlate from the time that the call came through to the police to the time we got him out.
00:26:06
Speaker
They can work out how long he was down the drain for.
00:26:07
Speaker
It was at least 45 minutes, if not longer.
00:26:13
Speaker
So by the time we got organised, it was a very, very intense period of time.
00:26:21
Speaker
That I do remember.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:24
Speaker
The fact that you can recollect it so vividly just, you know, shows how, you know, what a moment in, like, a time stamp in your life it was and, like, how amazing that you've got a relationship with the boy now.
00:26:38
Speaker
So you say he was 11?
00:26:40
Speaker
Yeah, he was 11.
00:26:41
Speaker
And he was very adversely affected in relation to mental health issues and the troubles that they caused him.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:53
Speaker
Ended up, you know, it's on record he got into a lot of trouble with the police and spent a lot of time in boys' homes and things.
00:27:00
Speaker
And I was continually writing references for him to try and explain why, et cetera, et cetera.
00:27:06
Speaker
After that rescue, you know, I'd been involved in some pretty serious stuff before then and my mental health completely deteriorated.
00:27:14
Speaker
So I was trying to do my best for him, but I just, I never felt I could do enough for him, but I was struggling to stay alive myself at that point.
00:27:23
Speaker
So I could only do the best I could.
00:27:25
Speaker
But yeah, but from that, you know, we did develop a bond and that bond has never been broken.
00:27:32
Speaker
The same with his family.
00:27:34
Speaker
And yet to go to his wedding was a very, very, very special occasion.
00:27:40
Speaker
Would have been a few days there for sure.
00:27:44
Speaker
He was such a brave little boy to hang onto that timber the way he did because I know like I'm six foot two and 100 kilos and that water just washed me like a leaf.
00:27:54
Speaker
And for this little boy to have that power of water, trying to tear him away from what he was holding onto,
00:28:02
Speaker
It was just phenomenal courage and determination to live.
00:28:07
Speaker
And for me, such an inspiration, that just desire that he's never going to give up was simply extraordinary.
00:28:16
Speaker
What a story, mate.
00:28:17
Speaker
What a story.
00:28:18
Speaker
Incredible.
00:28:20
Speaker
Incredible.
00:28:21
Speaker
You won't realise, Alan, just before you go on to the next question, we've got the stormwater pipe story in book two, you know, in the book series, and we put in the stormwater pipe story.
00:28:35
Speaker
And we've done a video, haven't we, at a stormwater pipe?
00:28:41
Speaker
And, yeah, absolutely.
00:28:44
Speaker
That's just taken on a whole new meaning for me.
00:28:47
Speaker
So, yes, okay.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:50
Speaker
So just need to take one pause.
00:28:53
Speaker
Yep.
00:28:53
Speaker
One pause.
00:28:55
Speaker
He'll be back.
00:28:56
Speaker
Um, so Lee, what a story.
00:28:57
Speaker
Um, I, I know, uh, I've heard that story a few times, but I've never heard it in depth like that.
00:29:04
Speaker
And just visualizing what would have been going through Alice head.
00:29:11
Speaker
I would try to put myself in that situation, um, as a firefighter and, um,
00:29:15
Speaker
you know, you do take risks and you do try and do your best and help, but, gee, that would have been scary.
00:29:22
Speaker
Knowing how much water, how dark, how cold, it's just an absolute.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, and the distance as well.
00:29:33
Speaker
I read the story this morning on, I think it's on Alan's website.
00:29:37
Speaker
I found it on Alan's website and I read the story this morning.
00:29:39
Speaker
And I think like being 80 metres down the pipe,
00:29:43
Speaker
and then the little fella being so many hundred metres from where he started.
00:29:47
Speaker
600 metres.
00:29:47
Speaker
It's a long way.
00:29:50
Speaker
That's like, you know, and, you know, when we did the, it was, you know, obviously 11 years old with his two mates.
00:29:58
Speaker
And, you know, when we did the, when I did the speech in February, you know, they don't, they're not out there on their own.
00:30:04
Speaker
They're in a pack.
00:30:05
Speaker
No, they're in a pack.
00:30:06
Speaker
That age of, that's why we go like concentrate on,
00:30:11
Speaker
10, 11-year-old boys.
00:30:13
Speaker
Definitely.
00:30:14
Speaker
We can kind of shine a bit of light on our story in your cohort speeches because, you know, talking to someone that's actually done it and, you know, the brilliant story and then, you know, receiving the amazing war, which was highly deserved.
00:30:33
Speaker
But, yeah, hats off.
00:30:34
Speaker
And, yeah, we're rolling to the next question.
00:30:40
Speaker
Is this me or is it you, Matty?
00:30:42
Speaker
It's you, Lee, sorry.
00:30:43
Speaker
It's me.
00:30:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:30:45
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:45
Speaker
So we're on number four.
00:30:47
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:49
Speaker
So I am not surprised that you're awarded the Cross of Valour for that story, Alan.
00:30:55
Speaker
So one of only five recipients, how's that distinction impacted your life and career?
00:31:04
Speaker
I was incredibly humbled to be notified that I was being considered for the award.
00:31:14
Speaker
I was insistent that Gavin receive the same award because in my belief, Gavin was responsible for saving my life, helping save the little boy's life.
00:31:22
Speaker
But it was adjudicated that Gav would receive Australia's second highest bravery award, the Star of Courage.
00:31:29
Speaker
And...
00:31:32
Speaker
I've always felt as though Gav should have received the same as me, and I will always believe that.
00:31:37
Speaker
But he is obviously very, very proud of his involvement and his achievements and his awards.
00:31:42
Speaker
And Michael Ma received Australia's third highest, a bravery medal, for what he did, which is great acknowledgement of what Mike did.
00:31:51
Speaker
So the reality is that once you receive the award, it's...
00:31:57
Speaker
It opens up whole new opportunities, experiences, and that has been phenomenal.
00:32:04
Speaker
I think for me, it was some acknowledgement of what I went through, the impact of what the rescue did.
00:32:15
Speaker
Actually, I'll be really honest, I feel very uncomfortable about it in front of you guys, the lifeguards, and you as a first responder.
00:32:25
Speaker
That's why I don't talk about it when I do the training with you guys because I see how many lives you guys save every season and through your careers.
00:32:38
Speaker
And I know how many times you guys put your lives on the line and stuff.
00:32:42
Speaker
So I'm very respectful of all of you.
00:32:46
Speaker
So that's why I don't talk about it.
00:32:49
Speaker
I must say, Al, I was just – yeah, I was just going to – sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, mate, but when you just were putting your phone on charge, I was just talking to Lee about like –
00:32:59
Speaker
I'm just trying to put myself in that situation and just going like how scary and how brave and how courageous it was.
00:33:06
Speaker
And mate, I know you feel a little bit weird talking about it, but I reckon a lot of the guys will get a lot of fire in the belly and a lot of, they will be so proud to hear that story.
00:33:19
Speaker
You know, I've heard the first time I've heard it in depth, I knew about it, but you've never actually spoken before.
00:33:24
Speaker
like this in the podcast about it and um i'm just in awe of uh your actions that day and as a first responder i'm thinking what would i do in that situation and yeah man you went above and beyond and you should be very proud of that so never feel that um
00:33:39
Speaker
you know, a room full of 30 blokes that have been doing it for a long time, put that aside.
00:33:46
Speaker
We would love to hear you talk about that story because it does inspire not just us as first responders, but Lee and people listening to this podcast and people that are going to hear this story in time.
00:33:59
Speaker
So you should be very proud.
00:34:01
Speaker
Thanks, mate.
00:34:02
Speaker
Thank you.
00:34:04
Speaker
I knew you were going to say, I knew you were going to say, Humble.
00:34:07
Speaker
Sorry, Alan, I interrupted that.
00:34:09
Speaker
That's okay.
00:34:11
Speaker
But yeah, look, things like getting to build relationships with various state governors, the governor generals, and go to all these amazing events.
00:34:22
Speaker
And I remember when I was at the Queen's funeral, I'm sitting in...
00:34:29
Speaker
Westminster Abbey and I'm going, wow, remember that time back then?
00:34:36
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:38
Speaker
So it's been a real journey but I'm very grateful for the opportunities that it has presented to me by receiving the award and it's something that's, yeah, it's incredibly special to have.
00:34:58
Speaker
And you know what, Alan, what I will say is you've took that award and now what you're doing is giving back and, you know, you're doing things to look after other people, first responders with the operational readiness and things like that.
00:35:11
Speaker
And that's the measure of the man that you are and why you should have it.
00:35:14
Speaker
You didn't take, you haven't, I haven't, you know, noticed one bit yet that you're sitting around, you know,
00:35:20
Speaker
you know, sitting there admiring your award every day with a cup of tea, you have taken that platform and now you're giving back, which is why someone like you has an award like that.
00:35:32
Speaker
Oh, thank you.
00:35:33
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:34
Speaker
And that's... Sorry, mate.
00:35:36
Speaker
No, no, sorry, Al.
00:35:37
Speaker
Go, mate, go.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, you're very right, Lee.
00:35:43
Speaker
The reality that the award has opened up doors...
00:35:47
Speaker
to help me deliver the training programs and help educate people about why their mental health can deteriorate and the work that they do, why it has an impact.
00:35:59
Speaker
Building that relationship with Dave and working with Dave, I mean, for me, it's the perfect combination of lived experience and science.
00:36:07
Speaker
that people can really relate to and helps them understand.
00:36:09
Speaker
So certainly I don't believe that if I didn't have that award, I don't believe I would be in the position that I have been and currently in to help people the way that we are able to help them.
00:36:23
Speaker
Awesome.
00:36:24
Speaker
And that rolls us into the next question perfectly.
00:36:27
Speaker
You've held significant roles in mental health advocacy, including as a Deputy Commissioner of the Mental Health Commission of New South Wales.
Transition to Advocacy
00:36:34
Speaker
What inspired you to transition into this field after policing?
00:36:40
Speaker
I think that's the first foray, as I said, as a Beyond Blue ambassador, that allowed me to become aware of
00:36:46
Speaker
how many people have mental ill health in our society and how many people are impacted by their work and the like.
00:36:57
Speaker
And it also made me realise that there's such a focus on postvention, trying to help people after they're unwell, which I totally respect and totally agree with the need to.
00:37:09
Speaker
But I also thought, well, why aren't we helping people
00:37:14
Speaker
to stay well and not become mentally unwell in the first place.
00:37:18
Speaker
Why aren't we doing that?
00:37:20
Speaker
And I think through my work with first responders, AMBOS and FIRIES, the then Deputy, sorry, the then Commissioner of the Mental Health Commission of New South Wales, John Fenley, he saw I had a very strong first response connection and he invited me to become a Deputy Commissioner at the Mental Health Commission, which I was very, very proud to take on.
00:37:41
Speaker
And
00:37:43
Speaker
As fate happens, one of the other deputy commissioners is an eminent psychiatrist, Dr. Martin Cohen.
00:37:48
Speaker
And I explained to Martin, I said, you know, I accept the diagnosis that I had, all this stuff, but I said, I can't understand why I became so mentally unwell before these things happened.
00:38:03
Speaker
And so that was Martin who explained the why factor to me, why people become chronically stressed and burned out.
00:38:10
Speaker
And I then looked at my own life and I compared those periods of my life and I go, ah, yep, yep, there, there, there, there.
00:38:16
Speaker
I could almost draw a timeline as to the decline in my mental health.
00:38:23
Speaker
So Martin explained, he said, particularly for first responders and other people, if you're chronically stressed or burned out, you're very vulnerable to the development or the impact of trauma-related mental illnesses.
00:38:35
Speaker
So he said, essentially, if you can help people not become burnt out, you've got a big chance of reducing mental ill health across the country, basically.
00:38:45
Speaker
So that became then my fire in the belly as to, okay, let's educate, let's educate, and let's share the focus to prevention proactivity along with postvention and support.
00:38:59
Speaker
And that's been my goal since I started at the commission.
00:39:04
Speaker
Awesome.
00:39:05
Speaker
Wow, that's incredible.
00:39:06
Speaker
And you know what that's like, you know, in a very strange kind of parallel, really.
00:39:12
Speaker
That's what we are trying to do with Live and Survive with bizarrely like those 10 year olds that, you know, you had to rescue.
00:39:21
Speaker
Like when we go to schools, Maxie will talk to them about, you know, certain life skills that just build a bit of resilience so that they can cope with, you know, because, you know, kids see this perfect thing.
00:39:35
Speaker
They're online, which is just a hideous place for young kids.
00:39:39
Speaker
And they see everyone living out their so-called perfect life.
00:39:43
Speaker
And, you know, the reality is there is no perfect life.
00:39:46
Speaker
And Maxie will say, you know, we would say if there was a perfect world, Maxie wouldn't have a job.
00:39:51
Speaker
Those lifeguards would not be needed on the beach.
00:39:55
Speaker
Life, you know, things go wrong.
00:39:57
Speaker
And it's knowing how to even simple things with kids at 11 year olds, if they can take that
00:40:04
Speaker
situation cope with it have certain skills that and then they realize you know what this happened i'm okay we go again tomorrow that might save the 15 year old having anxiety of the 20 year old having 25 year old and you know as they grow the problem grows
00:40:25
Speaker
All the difficulties grow.
00:40:27
Speaker
The potential for you guys, not only the work you're doing now, but the cohort that you're educating, that's where a lot of focus needs to be placed.
00:40:38
Speaker
So the opportunities that you are creating through your education programs, I see you could expand that to help them understand so much more about the impacts on their lives that they can learn from to help them
00:40:54
Speaker
establish endurance and resilience as they progress through their lives.
00:40:58
Speaker
So you guys are perfectly poised to make a massive impact on top of no doubt the massive impacts you're already making.
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's why we have like, we have a newish logo we started this
Meaning of Live, Learn, Survive
00:41:12
Speaker
year.
00:41:12
Speaker
It's got water, fire and the cross for first aid, but right at the very top is a heart and the heart is look after yourself because if you look after yourself, you can look after, you know, self-care, you can look after everyone else.
00:41:24
Speaker
Yeah, and that's where I think we as a society are failing, that we are failing to educate them at the earliest possible age.
00:41:32
Speaker
You guys are trying to do the best and doing an extraordinary job.
00:41:36
Speaker
And this is where we need to really start to ramp it up.
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:42
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:41:43
Speaker
You're up, Lee?
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, look, we may have already answered this, but I was just like, you know, a moment in your career that particularly transformative or shifted your perspective on life.
00:41:56
Speaker
You may have covered it or there may be one that you want to throw in there, Alan.
00:42:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'd.
00:42:02
Speaker
Unfortunately, my memory is still very strongly.
00:42:04
Speaker
That's good.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker
And thank you for giving me a rough breakdown of what things I might be asked today because it does help me to think about stuff, which is really important because I really respect what you guys are doing and the power of your podcast and stuff.
00:42:22
Speaker
So there was a lot to think about in relation to this question and I
00:42:28
Speaker
There were so many examples, but I thought the key element about life, and I remember I'd only been on the job for just a few weeks.
00:42:40
Speaker
I was still 19, really raw.
00:42:44
Speaker
I was working with the senior constable, Ian Lindsay, who was a great mentor and teacher, very quiet, calm guy, and we got a job over the radio to attend an address at King's Cross regarding a deceased.
00:42:58
Speaker
And I had already had some experiences with deceased in my early career with the police.
00:43:10
Speaker
So it wasn't like I was gonna go and see my first deceased person.
00:43:14
Speaker
But we got to this apartment.
00:43:16
Speaker
It was a really well-maintained immaculate apartment.
00:43:20
Speaker
And a young man had taken his own life.
00:43:23
Speaker
He had, back in those days, the gas used for cooking was toxic.
00:43:28
Speaker
and he took his own life.
00:43:31
Speaker
And I remember walking into the kitchen and he was lying there with his head on a pillow
00:43:40
Speaker
And I read his note to his family.
00:43:45
Speaker
And I'd never known of anyone to take their own lives.
00:43:50
Speaker
And I thought, how can this young man want to do that?
00:43:56
Speaker
Why would you want to do that?
00:43:59
Speaker
That was one of the most defining moments in my police career and in my life that somebody didn't want to live anymore.
00:44:06
Speaker
And it was so bizarre to the way I had lived my life, my family had lived their life.
00:44:11
Speaker
It was so foreign.
00:44:13
Speaker
But he was so at peace and it was very confusing.
00:44:18
Speaker
And I look back on that as probably the most defining moment to answer your question.
00:44:26
Speaker
And then, as you understand, Maxie,
00:44:29
Speaker
you understand the difference between life and death is one breath, one second, that's it.
00:44:36
Speaker
And that was something that has obviously remained in my memory, didn't have a negative impact on me per se, just made me feel very, very sad that somebody's life could reach a point where they didn't want to live anymore.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:51
Speaker
And unfortunately, in this day and world, it's becoming more and more common.
00:44:54
Speaker
And, you know, the longer that I'm in the fireys, you know, we tend to go to them a lot, unfortunately.
00:45:03
Speaker
I remember, Maxine, you.
00:45:04
Speaker
Sorry.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:06
Speaker
I was just going to say, if anyone that's listening to this that is struggling or needs to go seek help, there are
00:45:13
Speaker
services out there.
00:45:14
Speaker
And we'll put some stuff at the end of this podcast in the Spotify bio so people can reach out if they need it because it's so important.
00:45:23
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:45:24
Speaker
It's so important.
00:45:26
Speaker
And even on our Instagram, we have all the help buttons for all around the world for kids, helpline, you know, because, you know, people do need someone to talk to and there is always someone on the end of the phone somewhere.
00:45:38
Speaker
And we often say,
00:45:40
Speaker
We're not experts, but we know the people that are.
00:45:43
Speaker
Find the experts and go and find the people they are.
00:45:46
Speaker
And that very much reminds me, Maxi, of your very first day down at the beach that you've talked about before.
00:45:53
Speaker
Yeah, plenty.
00:45:53
Speaker
Similar situation.
00:45:55
Speaker
First day down at the beach.
00:45:57
Speaker
By memory, were you with Box or Curbox or someone like that?
00:46:00
Speaker
I was 16 years old.
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
And you said, I just want to help people.
00:46:05
Speaker
And, you know, and I think that's an absolutely defining day in your career as well.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, so very similar.
00:46:12
Speaker
Alan, probably not aware of the story, but we unfortunately had someone jump off Bronte Point, which was literally my first day as a lifeguard at Bronte Beach, my first day.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I remember getting the binos out and looking and seeing, I still remember the colored shirt, it was a red shirt floating out in the water.
00:46:30
Speaker
And one of the boys paddled out and said, Max, you stay here, just get the gear, we'll bring him in.
00:46:35
Speaker
And we brought him in.
00:46:36
Speaker
I remember the guys starting to work on him.
00:46:39
Speaker
And Kerbox looked at me as he was pumping my eye on the chest and he looks at me straight in the eye.
00:46:43
Speaker
He goes, is this your first one?
00:46:45
Speaker
I said, yeah.
00:46:45
Speaker
And he goes, jump on.
00:46:46
Speaker
So he got me to get on the chest pretty quickly.
00:46:49
Speaker
So I remember doing a couple of rounds of CPR on the person.
00:46:56
Speaker
The total ambulance chopper landed in the park at Bronte.
00:47:00
Speaker
And I still remember to this day, I'm,
00:47:04
Speaker
He was clinically dead.
00:47:05
Speaker
He was assistively when he was in the water from the impact.
00:47:08
Speaker
But the compressions that we did and using the defib, we managed to get a heart rate back, pulse back, and then they managed to put him on life support.
00:47:19
Speaker
and they donated a few of his organs that were still not damaged from the fall or from what had happened.
00:47:27
Speaker
So even though he ended up passing, it was a successful recess on our part, getting a rape out.
00:47:34
Speaker
I remember thinking to myself, well, this could be an easily crossroads.
00:47:38
Speaker
I left school in year 10.
00:47:39
Speaker
I know that there were kids in my year still studying for their school exams because it was around October, November of 2007.
00:47:48
Speaker
And I remember thinking like some of my mates, all the kids that I went to school with have no idea this is the real world and this is what needs to be done.
00:47:56
Speaker
And I remember thinking to myself and talking to Curlbox and a few of the lifeguards there going, you know, I want to help people.
00:48:03
Speaker
And I've always kind of remembered that story and, you know, Lee brought it up.
00:48:07
Speaker
But, you know,
00:48:08
Speaker
Very similar to yours, Al.
00:48:10
Speaker
I think they stick with you.
00:48:11
Speaker
It hasn't affected me.
00:48:12
Speaker
I don't think about it every day, but I do think about that time and I reckon that would have been a definite crossroads of going down the path that I've done.
00:48:21
Speaker
And, yeah, so adding on to that, a bit more of an upbeat part.
00:48:29
Speaker
Let's lighten it up a little.
00:48:31
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:48:33
Speaker
So who inspired you growing up?
00:48:40
Speaker
Ah, yeah, that's... I had a deep, deep love for my uncle.
00:48:49
Speaker
And he was just a very wonderful, kind, caring man, I think.
00:48:56
Speaker
I think as a child, the person I was quite in awe of was my grandfather.
00:49:00
Speaker
Granddad, he was in the Light Horse Brigade in the First World War.
00:49:06
Speaker
And obviously as a young child, you don't know about war.
00:49:09
Speaker
You just, in real terms, you read historical books and things and you have some understanding.
00:49:17
Speaker
But I remember my grandad was a very quiet, deliberate man who everybody looked up to.
00:49:25
Speaker
He could hold court with anybody.
00:49:28
Speaker
Everybody spoke about Jim Murray as being like a real man's man.
00:49:32
Speaker
You know, he'd been to war and he's a successful grazier and
00:49:36
Speaker
So I'd have to say that
00:49:39
Speaker
in my early years, say up until I was about 14, 15, my grandfather would be the one that inspired me the most.
00:49:47
Speaker
You'd be looking down and thinking how good it's such a nice thing to remember your grandparents.
00:49:55
Speaker
I lost my grandpa last year and he was a big influence with me as well.
00:49:59
Speaker
Pop, he was an ex-paramedic and back in those days, he was a volunteer paramedic at a mascot station and they used to respond up to the old Redfern
00:50:09
Speaker
back in the 60s and oh yeah late 50s 60s and early 70s and um he had some crazy stories and the fact that my first fire station i got posted to was redfern uh all right wow yeah so a little bit of a you know a little bit of a weird one there but yeah um yeah i would say my grandfather too what about you lee
00:50:33
Speaker
Um, oh, you know, yeah, I think, I think family, like I, you know, I also had an awesome granddad who, you know, just different people that, um, my first boss was incredible, um, taught me how to lead people, was a really good boss, you know, and, um, you know, I think people, um, have influence on you, you know, there'll be a teacher that believed in you that, and there'll be a few that didn't, you know, that kind of thing.
00:51:00
Speaker
So, um,
00:51:02
Speaker
Yeah, great, great, great answer, Alan.
00:51:07
Speaker
So I'm going to lump these couple together for you, Alan.
00:51:10
Speaker
Most stressful part of the journey so far, and whoa, you've had a lot of stress, but how do you deal with it?
00:51:16
Speaker
So what have you found the most stressful and how have you been able to, who looks after Alan?
Resilience in Life Challenges
00:51:23
Speaker
I think that probably the most stressful was when I realised my mental health was declining,
00:51:31
Speaker
and I was starting to what I believe was lose control and then ultimately become suicidal.
00:51:36
Speaker
That was without doubt the most stressful period.
00:51:43
Speaker
And obviously things happen from there.
00:51:46
Speaker
But what I do now, it's really important to me, Lee, that I want to be the living, breathing example of how I want
00:51:54
Speaker
the people that Dave and I train, the people I train, I want to be somebody they go, you know what?
00:51:59
Speaker
Sparks, he does the stuff that he's asking us to do.
00:52:03
Speaker
And that's really important to me.
00:52:05
Speaker
And, you know, I, I look after myself, you know, I'm very conscious of my sleep quality, my fitness levels, my nutrition, my blood glucose levels, because I'm a pre-diabetic, my alcohol consumption, um,
00:52:21
Speaker
my knowledge I've gained about diaphragmatic breathing, how I implement that in my daily life, all these things about being proactive and not to say that there hasn't been other periods of trauma in my life.
00:52:37
Speaker
Of course there has been in everybody's lives.
00:52:39
Speaker
But knowing how to endure those periods has been very important.
00:52:44
Speaker
But my belief is if you can't endure it, you've got very little to be resilient with.
00:52:48
Speaker
So it's about how do you develop endurance?
00:52:50
Speaker
How do you maintain endurance?
00:52:52
Speaker
You know, it's a bit like a marathon runner.
00:52:54
Speaker
They train and they endure that period.
00:52:58
Speaker
And then they have the capability to be resilient after
00:53:02
Speaker
so they can get prepared to do another one.
00:53:05
Speaker
So that's the philosophy that I live by now.
00:53:08
Speaker
But it's all based on knowledge that I've gained over the years of being involved in the sector, working with people like Dave, working with people like Dr. Martin Cohen.
00:53:18
Speaker
It's learning from experts about the why factor and what you can do individually to manage those factors and control them and establish them and maintain them.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:30
Speaker
Great answer.
00:53:30
Speaker
So for me, whilst I acknowledge the critically importance of having clinicians, et cetera, to help us understand and manage and build resilience and
00:53:43
Speaker
be able to keep going.
00:53:45
Speaker
It's so important that we focus on the things that we are in control of.
00:53:51
Speaker
And I think that's where we've made a difference with the lifeguards, Maxie, that we've given you the knowledge for you guys to develop the skills to enhance your professional and personal lives.
00:54:03
Speaker
and endure those periods of high intensity, potentially traumatic incidents, significantly traumatic incidents, all these things we've helped you do, then you put that into practice.
00:54:15
Speaker
And that's been such a reward for Dave and I to know that the people we're training, the guys actually doing it.
00:54:22
Speaker
And when you hear such as yourself, Maxie, and Hopper and all the guys talk about the difference it's made to their professional lives and in turn their personal lives, that's when you go, oh, wow, this is so good.
00:54:34
Speaker
Yeah, it does.
00:54:35
Speaker
It's just extraordinary.
00:54:36
Speaker
You know, you need to have the same feeling, mate, when you do a successful rescue.
00:54:40
Speaker
All the stuff you put into being at that point in somebody's life, you're there because you're capable of doing it and you do something successfully or to the best of your ability and the emotion that must create for you would be so powerful.
00:54:54
Speaker
Oh, it definitely is, mate.
00:54:56
Speaker
It definitely is.
00:54:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:58
Speaker
Brilliant answer.
00:54:59
Speaker
It rolls right into, again, the next question.
00:55:02
Speaker
What advice would you give to young professionals or people listening to this podcast entering high-stress fields like policing, firefighting, or emergency services, or even just your general job that you're going for?
00:55:15
Speaker
What advice would you give them?
00:55:18
Speaker
I would suggest that you learn as much as you possibly can from
00:55:23
Speaker
about the physical and psychological impacts it may have on you, not to say it will, but may have on you as an individual and understand why they would have an impact, how they have an impact and what you can do to reduce the impact.
00:55:42
Speaker
So it's all about research, research, research, build up your knowledge base and then understand it.
00:55:50
Speaker
For example, with the police, we talk about
00:55:53
Speaker
the changes that takes place in their lives once they leave the academy.
00:55:56
Speaker
And I'd say 99% of the answers people give, they go, ah, shift work and sleep.
00:56:05
Speaker
And that's a big thing that, as you know, we focus on in our training is the importance of quality sleep, why we need to sleep, and the impacts upon us physically and psychologically if we don't get quality sleep.
00:56:17
Speaker
So we understand how all these things can impact you and what you need to do to do that.
00:56:23
Speaker
So it's researching, building up your knowledge,
00:56:27
Speaker
education and putting that stuff into practice and learning as you progress through your careers.
00:56:33
Speaker
Great advice.
00:56:34
Speaker
Yeah, and as we all go through life, every part of our life is impacted by various things along the way.
00:56:40
Speaker
But if we understand how they impact us, why they impact us, what we can do, we're in a better position to manage when the hard times really smack us around the ears.
00:56:52
Speaker
Brilliant.
00:56:52
Speaker
Great answer.
00:56:53
Speaker
Such good advice.
00:56:56
Speaker
So, Alan, what is next for you in terms of the work you're doing in mental health advocacy and other passions that you're pursuing?
00:57:06
Speaker
What's next for Alan?
00:57:08
Speaker
Look, I would love to keep doing what I'm doing.
00:57:13
Speaker
I love working with Dave.
00:57:14
Speaker
He's a great mate.
00:57:15
Speaker
I have such respect for him as a professional.
00:57:21
Speaker
He's been a wonderful support for me.
00:57:22
Speaker
I've learnt so much from Dave.
00:57:24
Speaker
He's really helped me unpack the why factor for so many things.
00:57:29
Speaker
And that's where I see the benefit of a good clinician can really, really make a difference to people's lives.
00:57:37
Speaker
It breaks my heart that it's so hard for people to gain access to good clinicians.
00:57:42
Speaker
There's just all this stuff about, yeah, just speak up and go and get help.
00:57:48
Speaker
Well, I think that's very disrespectful to people who are mentally unwell because speaking up is really, really challenging when you're mentally unwell.
00:57:56
Speaker
It's really hard to do it.
00:57:58
Speaker
And to get help is extremely difficult.
00:58:02
Speaker
And for many people, it's unaffordable.
00:58:04
Speaker
It's not available.
00:58:06
Speaker
So we need... That's why I think it's so important we develop this proactive preventative approach.
00:58:12
Speaker
So at the end of the day, there isn't the desperate need for people when they reach that terrible point in their lives.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:58:21
Speaker
Because parents that can't get appointments for children for months...
00:58:26
Speaker
Yeah, and if they're lucky, it could, yeah.
00:58:29
Speaker
That's the reality, Leigh.
00:58:30
Speaker
And it's very expensive.
00:58:33
Speaker
Families can't necessarily, you know,
00:58:36
Speaker
Afford it.
00:58:37
Speaker
It's hundreds of dollars an hour.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:39
Speaker
That's a thing.
00:58:40
Speaker
They probably don't know the options that are there too to be able to provide help and then trusting the person to tell the story too because, you know, everyone's got a story and you need to connect with that person because if you don't, then you think it's just another person that you're telling the story to that you know that they, A, probably don't care or, B, probably won't do anything about it and, C, maybe judge you.
00:59:00
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:02
Speaker
And people sometimes, you know, go to multiple different people till they find the person that they connect with.
00:59:07
Speaker
That's a really expensive exercise.
00:59:10
Speaker
Of course it is.
00:59:11
Speaker
And it's such a long time.
00:59:13
Speaker
So I think that we, and this is one of the great things that you guys are doing, is you're dealing with reality.
00:59:20
Speaker
You're helping these kids deal with reality, what's in their lives at their moment, to give them knowledge and skills to help them progress through their lives.
00:59:28
Speaker
And you are being very proactive and preventative in the approach you take, which is fantastic.
00:59:32
Speaker
So let's deal with reality.
00:59:35
Speaker
Pardon my French, but let's cut the bullshit and address the issues that we know that need to be addressed.
00:59:42
Speaker
So for me, if I can continue doing this work, I would feel very blessed to do it.
00:59:48
Speaker
How long that will continue for, I don't know.
00:59:51
Speaker
Ultimately, as many clinicians say, they'd love it that they weren't needed anymore.
00:59:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:59
Speaker
When that point will ever come, I don't know.
01:00:03
Speaker
Can we shift the focus?
01:00:05
Speaker
Can we change the focus?
01:00:06
Speaker
Can we make a difference?
01:00:06
Speaker
Of course we can.
01:00:08
Speaker
But it needs collaboration with like-minded people to do that.
01:00:12
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:00:14
Speaker
Mates, we kind of grazed over this, but we didn't actually ask the question, but best piece of advice you've been given?
Balancing Truth and Life
01:00:23
Speaker
I know there's probably been a great advice or maybe a quote that you can share or something that kind of keeps you upbeat and positive.
01:00:33
Speaker
It's not upbeat and positive, but it's one that's stuck with me very early in my police career, Maxie.
01:00:40
Speaker
When I was starting my training as a detective, I worked with a really, really wonderful man who was also a really wonderful detective.
01:00:52
Speaker
highly experienced, incredibly courageous.
01:00:55
Speaker
And he said to me, Al, as a police officer, never be judge, jury, executioner.
01:01:05
Speaker
And I really thought about that and it made me think about what is your role as a police officer?
01:01:13
Speaker
What is your role as an investigator?
01:01:15
Speaker
What is your role as a detective?
01:01:18
Speaker
And ultimately it is to find the truth.
01:01:23
Speaker
And it's so important that you look at what is the truth.
01:01:29
Speaker
And I think that was probably one of the things that stuck with me the most.
01:01:33
Speaker
No matter what, always dig deep until you actually find the truth.
01:01:38
Speaker
And many years later, I used that philosophy in a very practical sense in regards to an investigation that I did where
01:01:49
Speaker
a man had been accused of a crime that clearly the evidence was that he had actually committed it.
01:01:56
Speaker
And at the start of the investigation, I started to have some doubts about it and it caused me to start digging deeper and deeper and deeper.
01:02:05
Speaker
And ultimately I realised, no, this man hadn't done this crime.
01:02:09
Speaker
He'd been set up for it.
01:02:11
Speaker
And eventually we arrested and charged and convicted the person who had committed the crime.
01:02:18
Speaker
So it was just a wonderful carry-on from the advice I've been given many, many, many, many years before.
01:02:26
Speaker
No matter what, find the truth.
01:02:27
Speaker
Find the truth.
01:02:28
Speaker
Stand by your values.
01:02:31
Speaker
I guess that's refreshing to hear that, that knowing that, you know, that, that, that is the primary role of a detective or people that are within policing is to find the truth.
01:02:41
Speaker
And I think sometimes people either forget that or they don't really necessarily understand that.
01:02:46
Speaker
But the fact that you kind of explained that quite well, my cousin's a detective out at Maroobo police station and I'll pass on that knowledge to him because it's true.
01:02:55
Speaker
You're trying to find the truth and you need to take all the stories.
01:02:58
Speaker
You need to take all the evidence and you need to,
01:03:01
Speaker
produce it and then, you know, if you uncover it all, hopefully the truth does always come out.
01:03:08
Speaker
But I think that also applies to the work that you guys are doing, the work that I'm doing, the work that Dave's doing.
01:03:14
Speaker
We're establishing the truth and we're dealing with reality.
01:03:19
Speaker
And that's so important.
01:03:20
Speaker
You know, you're not giving false or shallow information to the kids that you're educating.
01:03:25
Speaker
You're giving them the truth.
01:03:28
Speaker
Yes, absolutely.
01:03:29
Speaker
something that's real and they can deal with and manage, if you give them the wrong information or you gloss over it or you don't focus on what is the truth, then not a lot of good can come out of it.
01:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, you're right.
01:03:47
Speaker
That one saying, which I said, don't be the judge during execution, means don't assume anything, don't make false assumptions,
01:03:59
Speaker
Don't rely on just what you hear.
01:04:02
Speaker
You make sure you establish the truth first and foremost.
01:04:06
Speaker
And I think we can apply that across so many aspects of our lives.
01:04:11
Speaker
Brilliant.
01:04:12
Speaker
Brilliant.
01:04:13
Speaker
I think I love that.
01:04:14
Speaker
Find the truth.
01:04:15
Speaker
I've written it in big letters here.
01:04:17
Speaker
Alan, I really, really do love that.
01:04:21
Speaker
So with everything that you have on, how do you balance your Alan at home, the personal life with the demands of
01:04:30
Speaker
everything else that you're doing and, you know, public service and what keeps you motivated and how do you balance that?
01:04:40
Speaker
I mean, the motivation comes from being with people and talking to them.
01:04:45
Speaker
And, you know, certainly with you and the guys, Maxie, when we talk to you, after we deliver the training, the feedback we get,
01:04:53
Speaker
It's so positive and we know we're making a difference.
01:04:56
Speaker
And that's what keeps the fire in the belly.
01:05:00
Speaker
And the work I do with the cops to be back involved with the police is so rewarding.
01:05:06
Speaker
So I've always, I believe, been a very positive, optimistic person.
01:05:12
Speaker
And that, how do you say, that energy that I develop, it just carries over into the things I like to do.
01:05:21
Speaker
But certainly being around positive people, being engaged in positive activities.
01:05:28
Speaker
I still love to play rugby.
01:05:29
Speaker
I love being with the guys there.
01:05:32
Speaker
Still do some signing and things.
01:05:35
Speaker
I just think it's important to do the things that you like to do.
01:05:39
Speaker
I don't harm my body the way I used to because I didn't have the knowledge about what I was doing, how I was harming it.
01:05:48
Speaker
So I'm very, very conscious about my own health physically and psychologically and be grateful for every day.
01:05:57
Speaker
That's brilliant.
01:06:00
Speaker
I think the thing, like you just said, it's surround yourself with good people, you know,
01:06:05
Speaker
Just if you find here, we always say, you know, find the people that, you know, that, you know, receive your energy.
01:06:13
Speaker
And I believe what you put out there comes back to your tenfold and you suddenly have this incredible.
01:06:20
Speaker
people around you that, you know, makes life just like fun and rewarding.
01:06:28
Speaker
And like, you know, you say the feedback you get when you've spent time with the guys and how appreciated it is.
01:06:36
Speaker
I know when we get a great testimonial from a school, we're like, yes, you know, we want that in 10 schools, you know.
01:06:45
Speaker
So I completely understand that completely.
01:06:51
Speaker
I spend a few time over at Redfern at the National Centre for Indigenous Excellence at the boxing program we run for the kids.
01:06:57
Speaker
And the things I've learned about indig culture and education,
01:07:01
Speaker
the power of the support they give to everybody.
01:07:04
Speaker
And a lot of it's just unspoken support just being there.
01:07:07
Speaker
And I've learnt so much for the, I think I've been there for about 11 years now.
01:07:11
Speaker
And it's just such a great example of good people caring, just genuinely caring for people.
01:07:18
Speaker
The power of that is just nominal.
01:07:22
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:07:23
Speaker
It's that community.
01:07:24
Speaker
And Maxie and I have said it so many times.
01:07:26
Speaker
We're losing that community.
01:07:27
Speaker
You know, it's being lost because we're all online and on our phones and
01:07:32
Speaker
You know, when I first emigrated to Australia, one of my colleagues said to me, Lee, you can be lonely in a crowded room.
01:07:41
Speaker
And we are in crowded rooms and kids are in crowded rooms and they're lonelier than ever.
01:07:46
Speaker
And we're losing that just simple care in community.
01:07:50
Speaker
And, you know, it's great that there's centres like that that bring it back.
01:07:55
Speaker
Yes, so importantly.
01:07:57
Speaker
So important.
01:07:59
Speaker
Mate, last two questions.
01:08:01
Speaker
What advice would you give to your 16-year-old self?
01:08:06
Speaker
So you've got 16-year-old Alan sitting across from current Alan.
01:08:10
Speaker
What would you tell him?
01:08:12
Speaker
Trust your gut.
01:08:14
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I love that, Alan.
01:08:15
Speaker
What do they say?
01:08:16
Speaker
Because your gut knows what your head hasn't worked out yet.
01:08:19
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That feeling in your gut is just everything.
01:08:25
Speaker
I've not listened to my gut about three times in my life.
01:08:30
Speaker
And I should have, is all I'll say.
01:08:35
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:08:37
Speaker
Trust your gut.
01:08:39
Speaker
Brilliant.
01:08:41
Speaker
Yes.
01:08:41
Speaker
So last thing, we have a playlist.
01:08:44
Speaker
We have a Live and Survive Spotify playlist.
01:08:46
Speaker
And everyone that's ever been a guest gives us their upbeat go-to song,
01:08:51
Speaker
You know, you're about to go on that stage, Alan, to talk to the
Motivational Playlist
01:08:56
Speaker
crowd.
01:08:56
Speaker
You're about to stand in front of all those lifeguards.
01:09:00
Speaker
What song gets you in the right, you know, let's go take the day?
01:09:05
Speaker
It's a song by a guy called Danny Vera.
01:09:09
Speaker
You probably have never heard of Danny.
01:09:10
Speaker
He's a Dutch singer, songwriter.
01:09:14
Speaker
How do you spell the last name?
01:09:16
Speaker
B-E-R-A.
01:09:18
Speaker
Yep.
01:09:18
Speaker
Yep.
01:09:19
Speaker
And my favourite song of Danny's is Rollercoaster.
01:09:23
Speaker
Rollercoaster.
01:09:23
Speaker
Rollercoaster.
01:09:25
Speaker
Well, it is added to the Spotify Live, Learn, Survive playlist.
01:09:30
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:30
Speaker
So we have in the playlist, because we have the world online sort of crew of people, we have a young girl, Sammy, in Amsterdam.
01:09:41
Speaker
So she may know of Danny Vera.
01:09:46
Speaker
We've got German songs in there.
01:09:47
Speaker
There's all sorts in there.
01:09:49
Speaker
So it's a little global...
01:09:53
Speaker
playlist and Danny Bearer rollercoaster is like that's life isn't it?
01:09:58
Speaker
Life's a rollercoaster.
01:09:59
Speaker
That's what he sings about.
01:10:01
Speaker
The highs and lows of life.
01:10:04
Speaker
He's brilliant and he sings predominantly in English but I think once you hear his song you'll be looking for a few more to add to your own private playlist as well.
01:10:13
Speaker
Awesome.
01:10:13
Speaker
For sure.
01:10:14
Speaker
Alan, what a chance.
01:10:16
Speaker
It's been an absolute pleasure.
01:10:19
Speaker
You're a legend.
01:10:21
Speaker
I'm really impressed.
01:10:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a great chat.
01:10:26
Speaker
Absolute privilege.
01:10:28
Speaker
You should be very proud of everything you've achieved and you continue to achieve.
01:10:33
Speaker
And I look forward to seeing you again next year, the lifeguards.
01:10:37
Speaker
And then also now that you met Lee, being a friend of Live, Learn, Survive, you're always welcome.
01:10:41
Speaker
Yes.
01:10:42
Speaker
love to keep in touch and then hopefully you know one day we're up the stage where you're doing your mental health chat and we're up there talking about our water safety fire safety and first aid initiative for kids rubbing shoulders at governor house maybe who knows yeah we would love to talk to you a little bit more about what we're trying to bring in for kids as well Alan so
01:11:04
Speaker
You might regret that I've got your phone number now.
01:11:10
Speaker
I'm so sorry.
01:11:11
Speaker
I'll apologise in advance.
01:11:13
Speaker
I'm quite helping however I can, guys.
01:11:16
Speaker
Brilliant.
01:11:17
Speaker
Thank you so much, Alan.
01:11:19
Speaker
And I've just got one last question before we go.
01:11:22
Speaker
Where did you sail from in England when you sailed back to Australia?
01:11:28
Speaker
We sailed, actually, we left from the Isle of Wight.
01:11:33
Speaker
Right.
01:11:34
Speaker
We bought the boat at Hamble Point and we spent a long time, two or three months around Hamble Point, Isle of Wight, down at the pool.
01:11:43
Speaker
But we actually left, the morning we left was from the Isle of Wight.
01:11:47
Speaker
Yes.
01:11:48
Speaker
We went around the bottom of the Isle of Wight and then headed across the channel.
01:11:52
Speaker
Yep.
01:11:53
Speaker
With no idea about what we were going to do after we got to France.
01:11:58
Speaker
Wow, that's awesome.
01:11:59
Speaker
Well, yeah.
01:12:01
Speaker
I would love to talk to you another day about that journey because that sounds like an adventure.
01:12:07
Speaker
But I just think you talk about life takes you in unexpected places and all the rest of this.
01:12:12
Speaker
Maxie and I, we went to England because very close to Paul, my godmother lives in Paul, Southbourne Surf Life Saving Club invited Maxie to open their new clubhouse.
01:12:26
Speaker
And this crazy duo said, we'll come.
01:12:32
Speaker
And that same week, that's how Live, Learn, and I started.
01:12:38
Speaker
And that week we also went to visit the lifeguards at Wright on the Isle of Wight.
01:12:45
Speaker
Okay, okay.
01:12:46
Speaker
There you go.
01:12:47
Speaker
That's just a beautiful way to end.
01:12:50
Speaker
And that lifeguard service now, literally, what was it like that day that we went?
01:12:56
Speaker
Todd still keeps in touch with us, sends us videos and photos.
01:13:00
Speaker
What were they, four or five of them?
01:13:02
Speaker
They barely had a uniform.
01:13:04
Speaker
There's a photo that shed had half a sign on it.
01:13:08
Speaker
And last year we got a beautiful photo of the full team.
01:13:13
Speaker
They've got new kit.
01:13:15
Speaker
They've got all the rest of it.
01:13:16
Speaker
And they said, we're growing from strength to strength.
01:13:19
Speaker
Never underestimate the seeds that you sown and the kindness you said by coming to visit.
01:13:26
Speaker
Fantastic.
01:13:28
Speaker
There you go.
01:13:28
Speaker
Isle of Wye.
01:13:30
Speaker
We can't finish any more perfect than that, team.
01:13:32
Speaker
All right.
01:13:36
Speaker
Thanks again, Al.
01:13:36
Speaker
And, yeah, we'll be in touch soon.
01:13:40
Speaker
Take care.
01:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, hope everyone enjoys this chat.
01:13:43
Speaker
And we'll definitely put some buttons on the end of it and some links where people, if you need help, there'll be someone on the end of a phone for you.
01:13:51
Speaker
So we'll do that too.
01:13:53
Speaker
Thanks, Alan.
01:13:54
Speaker
Take care.
01:13:55
Speaker
Have a great week, everybody.
01:13:57
Speaker
Bye.