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The Truth Of The Matter is - Episode: 124 Special Guest - Johnny Sanders
20 Plays1 year ago
Today, we bring on Johnny Sanders, who is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Oklahoma and Texas. He is the owner of the Christian Counseling Practice, Truth & Grace Counseling. He also hosts his own podcast called: Faithfully Engaged. As a philosopher who loves to have deep conversations about the Word of God and many different issues that plague us today, I was excited to talk with Johnny and pick his brain on some things that I have always wanted to ask a Counselors. Tune in to see what those things were and decide for yourselves if you agree with our stances or disagree with them. I hope this conversation is a blessing because the opportunity to chat with Johnny sure was for me.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Focus
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to a special edition of the Truth for the Madivis podcast. I'm your host Jonathan, and I'm here with our special guests. But before we introduce and welcome him inappropriately, let's begin by recognizing and appreciating all our new and consistent listeners.
00:00:28
Speaker
We thank you all in advance for continuing to press play at your own convenience. Now, if you're a first time listener, we want you to know that the Truth for the Mad of His podcast is all about providing an honest, contextual, hysterezed, philosophical, and psychological view of the Bible through the use of hermeneutics while sharing some personal experiences from myself, Daniel, and any guests that were having on. We believe in applying God's word to everyday life. Now, today we will praise God for another new testimony that we will hear.
00:00:59
Speaker
We hope after hearing this man of God and his journey that you will be encouraged and uplifted. We hope that also you will see how an encounter with Jesus Christ would guarantee that your life would not be the same.
Johnny Sanders' Career and Podcast Journey
00:01:13
Speaker
Now, without further ado, let's invite our special guests in. Johnny Sanders, how are you doing this morning? I'm doing great. It's an honor to be on this morning. Thank you. Thank you. God bless you.
00:01:27
Speaker
What would you say is the interesting thing that's happened to you in the last couple of weeks that you feel like sharing?
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, so that's actually a really good question for this time of my life. I've had my own counseling practice going on for a while, but I've been slowly kind of building it up. It's still not able to be my only source of income, but it's getting enough now to where I am.
00:01:57
Speaker
And I'm independent, so I don't have, I'm not actually employed. This is fairly common in the counseling world where you contract with different organizations. Well, I just left, it's been about two weeks ago, that I left my full-time job and I've been contracting with some places.
00:02:16
Speaker
really working on growing my own counseling practice. So it's been a mixture of kind of gratitude, exciting, a little bit of fear and anxiety. It's kind of leaping out like that, but it's been a great blessing. I really have enjoyed that independence and I've been able to spend a little bit more time with the kiddos and things like that. So it's actually been a fantastic last couple of weeks.
00:02:45
Speaker
All right, cool. Can't wait to get into that. So here's the biography of Johnny Sander. So Johnny Sander is a licensed professional counselor at Oklahoma and Texas. He's the owner of the Christian Counseling Practice Truth and Grace Counseling. Johnny's also hosted a podcast, Faithful Engaged. And Johnny interviews guests on Faithful Engaged who are engaging in culture instead of living in anger and apathy. Could you explain that a little bit? What would you be jumping?
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So the start of the podcast, A Faithful Engage, it's actually, as of this recording, has not fully launched yet. That will launch on June 12th, Monday, June 12th. And that is a further extension of the Truth and Grace Counseling podcast, which is what it is currently under. And Truth and Grace Counseling was just my
00:03:40
Speaker
kind of the genesis of my counseling practice and I'm sure we can get a little bit more in depth into that but I made my own podcast for it really just to kind of advertise the counseling practice and it's been great I have loved it but it's kind of evolved into its own thing so I wanted to make Faithly Engaged to be its own separate podcast and
00:04:06
Speaker
I'm pretty upfront with my value system. I certainly come from definitely a Christian worldview. I tend to, definitely according to more worldly standards, come from a more conservative type of worldview as well. I definitely put that underneath the Christian. The Christian worldview is definitely kind of the top filter there. But I've noticed in podcasts and that type of sphere,
00:04:35
Speaker
There's certainly great podcasts like this one that are out there, but I see so much that's like...
00:04:42
Speaker
man did you see what happened in the world today did you see this happen and it's all bad things and don't get me wrong i think that's important to look at those issues and to realize okay like yeah there there are specific things that i need to be aware of and specific traps and things like that so i'm not advocating to dig your head in the sand and in fact quite the opposite what i don't want to do is just hear those events and then just
00:05:12
Speaker
Man, I hate this. I hate the world. I hate everything around me. And I'm just angry. Like, I don't think that really does anything for us. I'd rather us hear those events, hear these struggles going on, and do something about it. And there's going to be some times where you can't do anything about it. And if that's the case, then we need to try to learn to let some of those things go and focus on what I can do.
00:05:37
Speaker
So on Faithfully Engaged, I have guests on from varying walks of life, and they're doing that. They're not just saying what's going wrong in the world. They're doing something to engage it. And they don't always have all the right answers, but they're trying. So that's kind of the basis of the show, is to really spur people, particularly a Christian audience, towards action instead of
Johnny's Background and Faith Journey
00:06:02
Speaker
apathy.
00:06:03
Speaker
All right. Sounds good. All right. So before we get started, dive a little bit more into that. And I'm sure of the topics we want to do for the matters podcast, engage in prayer. So we're going to do that first. Oh God, in the name of Jesus, Lord, you said for there where there are two or three in your name meeting together as your followers, you are there among.
00:06:27
Speaker
So Lord, we invite you into our conversation. We thank you for this opportunity that you've given me and Johnny to fellowship with one another. Lord, even though we don't know each other personally, we have one thing in common and that is we have a relationship with you and that makes us a part of one body and that's the body of believing. Truth of the Matters podcast appreciates the time he has set aside to provide us with his personal testimony.
00:06:52
Speaker
But I pray that having this conversation with John will open the door to all hearts and minds, saved and unsaved, to be active, to be intentional, and to pursue you at whatever stage in life that they're in. Lord, we know that you love you. Lord, we know that you love them and care for them and therefore as a result of that, you will not stop chasing them. You will pursue them at all matters, even if it's through a podcast like this one. So we thank you for this platform that you've given us.
00:07:21
Speaker
Lord, open up our eyes to see, our ears to hear, our hearts to perceive, and minds to understand. Let all who are listening be blessed and meet with a different perspective of life and with you in it. Lord, we say these things in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Yeah, so Jonny, let me first start by asking you, where are you from?
00:07:43
Speaker
Sure thing. I am actually currently where I grew up in, which is Duncan, Oklahoma. And if those in the audience aren't sure about Oklahoma or anything, I'm sure most of you know where Texas is. So we're just north of Texas. And I'm actually not that far from Texas. I'm roughly about an hour or so drive north. The Red River is kind of the big divider there.
00:08:13
Speaker
So yeah southern Oklahoma's kind of where I was born and raised and here in the last five years or so I moved back there I lived in the Oklahoma City Metro for a while after college, but yeah, my wife and I've got two kiddos that are out out and about in the world I got a three-year-old and a one-year-old and then I've got another child His name is Isaac that will be out in an August do at the end of August So we all live here in Duncan, Oklahoma
00:08:41
Speaker
Okay, just out of curiosity, how far are you away from transformation church with Michael Todd? I'm not entirely sure. Could you remind me where that's located at? That's like Tusca, Oklahoma. You know,
00:08:59
Speaker
And I'm not entirely sure I've heard of that. Um, there are so many little towns in Oklahoma. Um, that I went, when there's a, in Oklahoma, you hear all those little towns when you, uh, when there's a tornado or something, because they said there's a tornado near Tusco, Oklahoma. And they're like, Oh, where's that at? And anyways, I'm not entirely sure where that that's located actually.
00:09:26
Speaker
Okay. I only asked that because yeah, like when I think of Oklahoma and I think of churches, that's like the only church I'm familiar with, with the area. So I thought maybe you were either, you know, of the church or you're not too far from it, but obviously it's not a good question at least when it comes to that. So it was worth the try. Sometimes you just, you just ask these questions. Okay. So let me ask you, how'd you, how did you find your faith in Jesus Christ? Were you raised that way? Was it something that you,
00:09:55
Speaker
discovery later on in life for a teenager. Yeah, no, great question. And this is something that I kind of struggled with when I was younger and later I really felt convicted about this. So I grew up in a Christian family and like I said, I'm living now in my hometown. My parents live five minutes away from me. So grew up in church. I was always
00:10:23
Speaker
really important for us. We kind of had more of a Baptist background, so we're mostly in Baptist churches. And I don't remember exactly what led to, like if there's a specific sermon where I really felt convicted afterwards or what, but I was six years old. And I just remember talking with my parents like, hey, like this,
00:10:51
Speaker
this Jesus guy. I believe this. I want this faith in Christ. I recognize that I have sins, and I need to be saved. I was six, so I didn't have the perfect words, but I think that's the beauty of salvation, is you don't need the perfect words. All I know is that it was real.
00:11:16
Speaker
At that young age when I grew up, went into teenage years and even into early adulthood, I kind of almost felt bad about my testimony because I didn't have a, oh, I was doing drugs and then God saved me and all these miraculous things that happened.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I kind of struggled with that for a while. And as I've grown, as I've matured, I've realized that for one, that's a very selfish mindset to have.
00:11:48
Speaker
when I get salvation, I should be grateful for that, not look at a huge moment to happen. But I also look back and realize all of the moments of my life that things could have gone a completely different direction. And since I had that saving faith at such a young age, I really felt that
00:12:09
Speaker
that protection, God's protection over my life. And I think that is as big of a testimony as anything of the pitfalls that I have been prevented by, not because of my own actions or well-doing, but because of Christ. And that has really sunk into me, especially being married and having kids, like I'm so grateful to have them in my life. And I don't, some of the past that could have been taken, I don't think would have
00:12:39
Speaker
would have happened had I not been saved at that young age. So yeah, that happened when I was six. It's interesting you say that because, you know, in the book of Isaiah chapter four, it speaks about how my people destroyed for lack of wisdom. And I think a lot of people with the tendencies that most tend to have is that you're supposed to go through these horrific hardships
00:13:02
Speaker
But the whole point of God leaving his word here is so that we can gain access to it and do have an access to it. We can prevent some of the mistakes that are made because we're exposed to the warnings ahead of time. And what tends to be celebrated and almost always appreciated and recognized for a lot of people is they talk about all the hardship they've gone through. And I would say, at least to your story,
00:13:29
Speaker
that some people have to go through a lot of different things, because that's God trying to reach them until they get to a certain point where it's to a degree where it's really bad. And I believe that, you know, we have access to God
00:13:47
Speaker
And we don't always have to go through the worst of times to get access to God. We know that Jesus says in this life, you will face tribulations and hardships, but be a good share of overcome the world. We understand that that's going to happen. And then we can't avoid hardships, but what we can avoid is some of the mistakes that you can make at a young age into your adulthood that God is trying to shield you from. And I think what it is, is when people hit bottom,
00:14:17
Speaker
then all of a sudden God has their attention. God can reach them there because they're broken, they're wounded, they're in a place where they have nowhere else to go. But for you recognizing and appreciating your value in terms of how God sees you and what he wants for you in your life, and you tap into that earlier,
00:14:37
Speaker
I think you're doing it justice, right? I think we all have different stories, walks of life and how we encounter Christ, right? There's no perfect story, right? We're all broken and wounded, all placed in the same category with Romans 3, 23, when he talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I just think in your circumstance, and I would say his minds,
00:14:59
Speaker
We've recognized God's protection, grace, and mercy earlier. And therefore, we don't have these stories of God having to bring us through the dirt and through the mud for us to recognize his love and grace over our lives. So I think that definitely gets undervalued and underappreciated.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I don't think God wants us to suffer, right? He said, He didn't call us to suffering, but to experience salvation and grace and mercy, right? So I think a lot of those, you know, the stories that we hear is usually what moves a lot of us, but it just shows us that no matter what terrible situation the circumstance went in, God has the abilities to make us whole again.
00:15:48
Speaker
So that leads me to ask you this question. When you got started reading your Word, your Bible, what books or what books stood out to you that captured your attention, that made you think deeply about God's Word and about how you could start practicing or applying it together? Yeah, great question. When I'm thinking back to my childhood,
00:16:18
Speaker
Two books really come to mind. One was the book of Joshua. I think that you know kind of being being strong and courageous are really two of the big themes there and Some of that I think is just because I was a young boy. I look at my my son and daughter right now and you can already just kind of see the
00:16:41
Speaker
the differences. My daughter, quote, likes to have beautiful dresses. I got to put on my beautiful dress. She says that all the time. And my son is playing in the mud and throwing things everywhere. You just kind of see some of those differences at the young age.
00:16:57
Speaker
I think when I was younger, that book of Joshua, not still today, but just there's so much action. If you look at it, obviously, we believe that's God's holy word, but if you look at it purely as a literary work, it's quite intriguing. There's just a lot of different
00:17:18
Speaker
you know, steps going on there. So that always spoke to me kind of that that inner boy in me of, again, those themes of being strong and courageous. And that's something that's really has stuck with me those themes throughout the years. The other book, one of just my first ones was was the book of James, and I still really love the book of James. It's just so it's so practical.
00:17:45
Speaker
being slow to anger, making sure that your tongue, even though it's a small part of your body, that it's not controlling all of you. Just some really good, tangible things that all us Christians should be doing. And I also liked, too, that that book was
00:18:05
Speaker
You know kind of a lot of those epistles over there fairly short so I could read it and reread it and reread it And it wasn't quite as intimidating for me particularly at a at a younger age So those two were really the first two books that tended to stick out for me Yeah, yeah, I like your thoughts on Joshua because you know that it's that period of time where Moses is no longer in charge and then there's a transition of leadership
00:18:35
Speaker
over to potentially your own known man. Now we know Joshua is a man of war. We learned to come to understand that, but there's a scripture in that that always gets me when God says, so I was with Moses, so I would be with you. So there's this understanding that regardless who's in leadership or who's in charge, God and his power and his influence and his stewardship
00:18:59
Speaker
still transfers over. And remember, at the time, people were weeping and upset of Moses departure. And it was Joshua, like he said, who had to come out, be separate, and take courage and take the lead and lead the people to take the lead, right? God said, I was giving it to you, but the result was
00:19:18
Speaker
You got to go take it, right? So I love what you're saying about that. And James has always been an interesting one because, at least in my studies, a lot of people had problems with James because it was interfering with the whole concept of salvation. So when you talk about the practical aspect, then you talk about how James really inserts this idea of being practical. And in some senses, a lot of people are caught up in
00:19:44
Speaker
trying to tap into the spiritual aspects that God isn't always speaking direct to a spiritual aspect. Sometimes it's very practical, very philosophical.
00:19:54
Speaker
And James, like you said, provides such basic understanding, right? Show me your faith and I'll show you my works, right? And people have real issues with that. And I'm glad it wasn't removed out of the 66 books that were added in, but it was something that I think we needed to see and understand.
Career in Psychology and Counseling
00:20:14
Speaker
So, you know, that leads me to, you know, when you grew up and you were deciding or you were pondering over
00:20:23
Speaker
what you were going to do in life and how you were going to be an agent, ambassador, representative of Christ. What was it about counseling or was there anything else in contingent before you decided to do it?
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, great question. So I, I kind of just walk through my journey here. I mentioned I grew up in Oklahoma, so I didn't know after I graduated high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I went to, uh, I went to OU University of Oklahoma, um, and was undecided and
00:20:58
Speaker
I know a lot of freshmen are that way, but I truly just didn't know. So I was going there, just taking some basic classes and I took a psychology class and I ironically was one of the classes that I struggled in the most, but I really enjoyed it. It was intriguing to me, just some of the concepts that some of your listeners may be aware of. Well, like one of the kind of common ones that we talked about then
00:21:28
Speaker
The intro psychology class was Pavlov's dog, which was basically this.
00:21:34
Speaker
behavioral study that you ring a bell and you feed the dog food. Eventually you take the food away but still ring the bell, the dog salivates, thinks it's going to get food. And I just thought that was interesting. That in conjunction with in my friend groups, I tended to be the one that like say if there were
00:21:59
Speaker
three of us and person A is mad at person C and I'm person B there in the middle. I'm kind of the one that both of them come to me individually and kind of vent through things. And that happened enough times that like, okay, I kind of naturally have that
00:22:19
Speaker
ability to listen. I think really God gifted me with that and to be attentive to somebody that's struggling with something. So that in conjunction with my enjoyment of psychology, I just really decided to go into it and just took a few more classes, more counseling classes, and I just really enjoyed it and kind of the rest is history at that point.
00:22:47
Speaker
So let me ask you a question within that, that realm. Occam's story, how do you correlate that with the existence of God? You know, I think that this actually really leads into more, not just with this question, but the concept of psychology in general. There is
00:23:16
Speaker
There is such a minority of Christian thought in the psychology profession. I think a lot of that, the origins of it, it kind of had a Sigmund Freud type of person that had much more of an atheistic type of worldview. And while
00:23:40
Speaker
That has been a struggle, kind of being a minority worldview thought in this field. I can look at other aspects of psychology and kind of getting off the path here a little bit, but I'll look at something called CBT, so cognitive behavioral therapy, and that is something that is very
00:24:06
Speaker
kind of goes back to like the book of James is very practical. It's what I like about it. It's how you thinking about it, how you feeling about it. What are you doing about it? And I can look at something when you break it down to a basic task like that. You you can see where you can fit Christianity and that's so incredibly well. So I'll look at again CBT that concept of negative thinking negative thoughts and
00:24:36
Speaker
I am thinking, oh, I failed this test. I'm dumb. I'm never going to achieve anything in life.
00:24:43
Speaker
That would be that negative thought in there. And for just the pure CBT, kind of the more atheistic or kind of non-theistic worldview, it's, well, just think better about yourself and then you'll get there. And that's not like that's terrible. I don't think that's a bad approach, but it seems incomplete for me. Whereas
00:25:10
Speaker
We can look at that as believers. Oh, I'm stupid. I'm terrible. Let's dive that down. What does the Bible say about you? What does God think about you? You have worth not because of anything that you've done, but because God made you.
00:25:29
Speaker
I know kind of like I said getting off the beaten path a little bit on this but I just see these concepts where if you dig just a little bit deeper basically we can't play the game of being trapped in from some of these different worldview questions because they want you to answer oh like is there so you just believe some the kind of the
00:25:55
Speaker
joke atheistic answer is that the spaghetti monster in the sky, you know, kind of that, that type of language. And they get, they trap you into some of these questions that are not, they're not seeing the whole picture. Um, and I'm big on, on truth that's in my name, truth and grace counseling. So dig deeper. What does truth mean? We're going through the book of John and, uh, in our church right now.
00:26:23
Speaker
Pontus Pilate straight up asks, what is truth? I mean, these concepts have been around for a long time. So I'm much more into ask those questions and at the end, I think God supersedes all of it.
00:26:42
Speaker
He's not against psychology, but he's created that. So where we are off path there is not because psychology is wrong, but because the humans that are interpreting it in that way are incorrect. So I've really just tried to find Christ in all of those little moments because I think he's involved in all of it.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think the misconception is that people don't realize that God has his hand in human history. And we know he has his hand in human history. It's because we were created in his image, the Amago Dei. And just like God is a creator, we'll like him in every way because we are creators.
00:27:24
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I've said that I believe is that God created government. Government is usually attached to the Holy Spirit. And we created politics, which is to have an opinion. So those who say, oh, I don't have an, I'm not into politics. If you have an opinion, you're in politics. People don't realize that. But one of the things that you, you've stated that I, I'm a full proponent and a believer of is when you make a statement and you say that your desire and your heart
Christian Values in Psychology
00:27:54
Speaker
is to seek God in everything. I believe God is in everything. Whether we want to separate it or not, I believe he's the creator and the co-founder of ideas that people are now discovering and walking into or running into. And one of those things is, for me,
00:28:11
Speaker
I majored in philosophy. So some people think philosophy is diametrically opposed and musically exclusive. That's not true. If you go to the book of Proverbs chapter 9 verse 10, it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But people get caught up in the translation from the English fear just means reverence, respect.
00:28:32
Speaker
you know, this devotion, this commitment to God, right? So I can still believe in the idea of seeking out truth, but do it under the context and umbrella of God's word, right? When we look at Isaiah and he says, come, let us reason together. God is open to the possibility of reasoning. We see that with Abraham and the discussion about God destroying Solomon Gomorrah. And he talked about finding righteous men or righteous people in the city.
00:29:02
Speaker
reasoning with God, right? And it shows that God is open to the discussion and the possibility of engagement. That's why our whole relationship with God is found off of this idea of the back and forth and the commitment. And the more you read God's Word, the more you get to understand how He operates, how He maneuvers, how things get processed through the chances and the opportunities that He has.
00:29:27
Speaker
And on this podcast, one of the discussions I've said is we like to see the Word of God do different lenses in one of them is psychology. And the first one that came to mind as we were talking was the story with Solomon.
00:29:43
Speaker
And the two women came to him and one said, that's my son. And it talked about the death of one son. And then what Solomon says, well, if I cut this baby in half and give you one and give you one, right? And immediately we saw one, regardless of whether or not it was her son or not, she cared for the life.
00:30:02
Speaker
And the other one was more selfish and that was his ability to weasel out the, not just the inconsistency in the story, but the dishonesty, right? So we see these elements in psychology throughout Jesus and his conversations with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. So it's really interesting that people have decided to
00:30:27
Speaker
you know, view the world and its knowledge and information separate from God, where God is consistently involved in everything.
00:30:37
Speaker
and whether or not they want to appreciate it or not. Sometimes he's just not speaking, but it doesn't mean he isn't influencing, he isn't inspiring, he isn't motivating, and he isn't a part of it, right? And the reason why I asked you about Occamsteri, the reason why I was asking, is because we know, at least for me, when I look at Occamsteri, it's the obvious. The obvious is usually the answer. And I think about, you know, when you think about psychology, when you think about people, atheists, it's
00:31:06
Speaker
harder to resist God than to believe in God. You have to do a lot to resist God. And it's much easier. And then they will turn around and feel softly and say, oh, that's just lazy. Yeah, it's just lazy, right? So yeah, there was something he was going to say. No, I think that's a great point. And when you look at this kind of gets into a different discussion point of
00:31:36
Speaker
really why I've even kind of used the kind of inflammatory language of coming out and my counseling practice of being Christian, of really fighting against some of these worldviews that are in psychology. The big one, which I'm sure most of your audience is at least somewhat aware of this
00:32:00
Speaker
controversy, it's just everywhere right now, is gender affirming care. That's the big one. There are plenty of other battles and psychology that can and should be fought, but that's the one that's, for one, it's striking a chord with people because people that aren't Christian, people that are very liberal on pretty much everything.
00:32:26
Speaker
But I know what a man is. I know what a woman is. And that's that same concept right there. You have to jump through way more hoops to say, well, I had this surgery. I did these hormones. I did XYZ. So therefore, that makes me a man, makes me a woman. Or even further than that, there's also pronoun usage that goes. It's one thing. And this is kind of a danger of mine sometimes.
00:32:56
Speaker
I try to do my best to understand the other person's approach. I think that's a good thing because I want to use their best argument.
00:33:08
Speaker
But it does get me kind of going back to faithfully engaged. It gets me into that apathetic, angry mindset sometimes if I go too far. And it's like, my head just hurts after a while. But yeah, you go deeper. It's not just, okay, I identify as a woman. So now I'm Johnny, I'm going to call myself, she, her or whatever.
00:33:30
Speaker
I can disagree with that, but I can understand what I'm identifying as a woman. So that at least somewhat makes sense to me. Again, I'm going to disagree with you, but what really doesn't make sense, this goes way deeper, is Caesar or they, them, all these other ones.
00:33:53
Speaker
That doesn't even make sense. And I'm not trying to be flamboyant or being really rude. It doesn't make sense. And like you're saying there, it makes way more sense to say, well, God created them male and female. That's not difficult to understand. I told you just my own experience with my son and daughter.
00:34:19
Speaker
it's pretty a pretty apparent there and It takes me way more faith to yeah believe that Caesar is a healthy appropriate pronoun but in my in my field that's being more pushed upon I'm I'm the one that is really out of left field and I
00:34:43
Speaker
That's just not right. So that issue there specifically has really led me to be more proactive and more open about my beliefs in the psychology field. And while it's met with resistance, it's also met with quite a bit of approval and Thanksgiving. I've had people from different states, I've had counselors and
00:35:12
Speaker
different parts of the country, different parts of the world that like, thank you for saying something. And they're not even Christian half the time. It's just, this is a clear, blatant lie. And people are drawn towards truth. And going back to Joshua, that strong and courageousness, people are drawn to that when you
00:35:38
Speaker
All right. And this isn't an opinion thing. This is just very factual. And yeah, you may face some of that discouragement or people that are going against you, but it's worth it because truth is truth. Exactly. You know,
00:35:59
Speaker
I appreciate what you're saying as well. And I think that can't be remiss. It can't be ignored. We can't over gloss it. You know, when I think of the Antichrist and we think about the behavior and we think about the mindset that goes into the Antichrist is anything counterintuitive to the truth, right? Anything that challenges the status quo when it comes to what God has stated. And, you know, it's pretty simple for me, right? If Matthew.
00:36:28
Speaker
It talks about, and even in Genesis, it talks about God creating man and female. The philosopher and me last because there's certain things that are just principle, that are direct, that are straightforward. And we so often choose to select texts where we want to reason that way. I always say this, when I read scripture,
00:36:53
Speaker
I don't try to take scripture and align it with my lifestyle. I try to take my lifestyle and align it with scripture because that's how we take things out of context. And even on the show, I speak about a healthy hermeneu. Because the Bible itself, you know, scripture interprets scripture. So if you look in one section of scripture and you see something is said once, if it's true,
00:37:22
Speaker
And if God intended it to be what it is, you're going to find another place in scripture. And I use it as an example. I'm a proponent and a believer that, you know, my commitment to God in Christ is not a religion, it's a relationship. A lot of people would say Christianity is a religion. And I would say, is that true? Well, for one,
00:37:49
Speaker
The idea that Jesus is a religious figure is not an idea he presented and said he was. He said he was a king. You go through the gospels, he said he was a king. And obviously, in other gospels, there's elements of him being a servant. So where do we get this religiosity that Christ is this religious figure? Never said he said he was a king. He obviously told Pilate, you mentioned him earlier, that my kingdom is not of this world. That's what he said.
00:38:19
Speaker
And when we go through Old Testament, right? So this is me understanding this concept of relationship. We get an invitation in 1 John when he says in the beginning of chapter one, that he's inviting us to a fellowship. A fellowship is a type of relationship. Tell you nothing about a religion. We understand that the term Christian comes up in the book of Acts chapter 11, I believe is verse 44, that that is the titling
00:38:46
Speaker
of what they called believers. But at the time, we would just call it files of price.
Integrating Faith into Daily Life and Counseling
00:38:51
Speaker
So then we get this big umbrella of different sorts of Christians and then these different doctrines and these different embracements of tradition. But when we go back to the original concept of friendship, it's between God and Abraham. And God called him a friend. See, when we look at religion and the concept of religion is this belief of trying to align yourself up with rules.
00:39:13
Speaker
And Christianity is really just based upon, it has, you know, the Bible's full of patterns, principles, and precepts, right? And all of them are there to protect us, to guide us, to lead us so that we can flourish to the best of our ability.
00:39:30
Speaker
But at least when I looked at what God had with Abraham and how Jesus spoke to his disciples and said, I know don't want to call you strangers, but friends, because you know, my father's business, a lot of that is open to a much more personal interaction than just stipulating religion, right? James talks about what good religion is, right? About taking care of widows and, you know, those who are of need.
00:39:56
Speaker
But I think when we approach things from a relationship standpoint, it's a much more personal concept and therefore you're much more engaged rather than you're of this belief that if it's a religion,
00:40:10
Speaker
then you're doing all of these set of practices, but how much are you really in to tap it into God from a heart issue, right? All relationships are really depending on how much you put into it. So prayer, fasting, fellowship, all of those different things, whether it's corporate fellowship or it's one-on-one or it's gathering, right? Anytime two or three, just gathering is a group.
00:40:35
Speaker
is a form of church, right? That transition from a building to the individual person in the heart of the person. So when you look at all these different concepts, right, it is about evaluating and studying the word and being able to decipher the difference between the two. So when you get people get caught up in calling Christianity religion, they're looking at it from
00:40:57
Speaker
a worldly perspective. But if the actual believer has gone day to day and really living these things out, and especially what Jane says, don't just be here as a word, but do as a word. It's a much more practical and
00:41:11
Speaker
emotional, intentional relationship concept that I think can be adapted and embraced much more in a religion. And these are the things that we deal with when we were discussing and talking to people that have no idea. They're standing from the outside in not understanding the process that God is a God of process and regardless of where we are in life and that these things are
00:41:38
Speaker
you know, steps in the direction where God can say, I know you. I know you. I know your name. I know you versus him saying, I never knew. Right. So that's just something I wanted to bring up. And these are battles and situations that I think when you're, when you're talking to new found believers and you're discussing things with people that are interested, but then don't know how to put it. Right.
00:42:04
Speaker
I am, I'm just a big proponent of going to the scriptures. So at least me, I want to make sure that you want to comment on anything I said before I guess actually next question. No, I think that's, it really goes back into, um, that realizing that Christ is, like we mentioned before, above all, and in our culture, we do have that, um,
00:42:32
Speaker
kind of tendency even among believers is, well, here is my work life, here is my home life, and here is my church life. And yeah, well, there is some truth to that, that, you know, how I approach work is a little bit different than how I approach my family. Like God did make these different spheres, but He is in all of those. You don't have a work personality that is just completely separate from the rest of you. No, like it,
00:43:01
Speaker
needs to all be interrelated that way. And that doesn't mean that you have to have a ministry or be a pastor or whatever. You can go be a banker, but you'll be a banker for Christ. And that's where that relationship factor comes in, that you can't lose that
00:43:22
Speaker
intensity of that relationship and say, oh, well, I'll go back to church on Sunday and we'll make right and we'll get ready for the next week. Like, no, he's there every day. You just got to have that mindset.
00:43:34
Speaker
Yeah, I say this too, it's not what you know, it's who you know, right? That gets you into heaven. And God is not up in heaven taking attendance on how often you show up to church, right? Some people think that God's out there, oh, he missed this day and this day. Oh, he fell short in tithes and offerings this week. God is just not doing that. So this is a question that I really wanna tap into.
00:44:02
Speaker
because this definitely reached out, this definitely spoke to me. Does everyone need to be in counseling? Fantastic question. I'm really glad that you asked this. And this is one of those answers where, you know, we've kind of, as humans, we tend to swing side to side. And
00:44:27
Speaker
It seems to be, I don't know, 10 or so years ago. Probably we didn't talk about mental health stuff enough, particularly in the church. And I would probably be more tempted to say more people probably need to be in counseling than are if they're really not dealing with things.
00:44:51
Speaker
But we've tend to swung on the complete opposite direction. Not that there's not merit to talk about mental health and people go into counseling. That's fine. But we almost have this mindset that.
00:45:05
Speaker
I stubbed my toe, something went wrong. Oh, I need to go talk to a counselor about it. And you don't have to for every little thing. And in fact, some people will go through a really big thing. They might have a death in the family.
00:45:22
Speaker
some catastrophic medical event or something and two people might experience that same thing and one is in really bad emotional distress and they could probably benefit talking to somebody, talking to a counselor. The other person, they might have a really good strong network of maybe their churches really supporting them or
00:45:45
Speaker
that they have some good friends and family that are helping them. And they may not need it, even though they went through the same situation. So as a counselor, now it's better for me and my business to say, yeah, everybody needs counseling. But again, truth matters. And while it can be useful for some people, and not only for some people that it can be useful, it might be useful for a time, for a season.
00:46:14
Speaker
I see this quite often where clients will come in and they get a great connection with their counselor and then they just stay with them for like 10 years. And that's not the way that's supposed to be. Like my job is to try to get you healthy to where you don't need to talk to me anymore. I don't want to see you for 10 years.
00:46:40
Speaker
I think it's kind of a spirit of pragmatism on the counselor part. If I just keep following insurance claims on you year after year, that's good solid income. And I don't intend to inflict ill will or whatever on every counselor. I think that's just kind of a natural thing. They're paying me money. Why should I not take their money?
00:47:07
Speaker
Then again, on the client side, it's, well, this person's really knowledgeable. They're really helping me. I feel better when I talk to them. Why should I really do anything else? This is working for me. And there's just that spirit of dependence that is.
00:47:24
Speaker
not healthy. When I'm your counselor, I'm not your friend. I'm not hanging out with you on the weekends. I want you to have those relationships though. So I guess my answer to your question is as a definite no that not everyone needs counseling and even those that need it need to be careful that they're not
00:47:47
Speaker
Honestly, not elevating their counselor to the level of God that they can do no wrong. And I just need to listen to them the rest of my life because that's just not healthy. Yeah. I love the answer you gave because you know, I was very conflicted, you know, with the whole counselor movement and people all flocking.
00:48:10
Speaker
to speak to somebody. And maybe I'm wrong in this, and you correct me. But I've always felt that scripture itself holds you us accountable. It does. And I think what happens is, and this is the practical side of me, the philosophical side of me, is that some people need someone to point out the things that they're unwilling to address.
00:48:39
Speaker
And some people need you to delegate and tell you what it is that you need to work on. And I think some of us are just not responsible enough to see the problem and address it and not be held accountable for it. And I feel like at least scripturally, you know, God gives us plenty of time. He's a mercy. It's full of grace.
00:49:06
Speaker
where there's something that's going on. He tells you, right, the conversation that God had with Cain before he murdered his brother Abel is that sin is knocking at the door, that you have to address this. And I think what makes God so gracious and wonderful is
00:49:28
Speaker
He will point things out to you. I think about his conversation with Solomon when Solomon began sleeping with those women of the different idol gods. And he said, hey, you got to stop this. That's my version. You got to put that away. You got to stop that. And then when it gets out of control, God responds. So I've always wondered about that because some people think that it's
00:49:56
Speaker
It's a requirement and I can see the benefits of it in marriage. I can see the benefits of it. Like you said, if you lost a loved one and you're just not very communicative and getting somebody sitting down and having the time to talk it out and facing it, right? Because if, you know, let me ask you this question. This is an interesting question. When a person is struggling with things,
00:50:23
Speaker
What do you think of the concept of people that just try to stay busy and never deal with it? Yeah, that's a great question. This goes into just more of a practical type of answer. So the tendency when I'm dealing with something awful is I don't want to think about it because it's scary, it's threatening, so I keep myself busy.
00:50:49
Speaker
I like to point out to my clients when they're doing that. For one, I like to point out the benefit of what they're doing.
00:50:56
Speaker
I even put that out in a situation where somebody's like drinking heavily. Let's point out the benefit. And I don't say that to say you should keep doing that. I say it because you're doing it for a reason. It's helping you in some sense. It's just not the healthiest sense that it's helping you. So somebody that's avoiding, it's helping them because I don't have to deal with the scary thing. That's great.
00:51:22
Speaker
But watch the downside. The downside is still there. I can avoid it all I want, but it's still going to be there. And that's where I say for people—and this, again, more practical, not as much—if they are Christian, especially, I would definitely put them more into the Scriptures.
00:51:43
Speaker
Say okay, we're not gonna be able to think about this scary bad thing. Whatever happened all day long. That's not good either so Find some things to keep yourself going Go do some yard work or clean or take a walk or whatever. That's fine but you have to devote and spend some time and
00:52:05
Speaker
walking through whatever this issue is. And I tell them too, that needs to be outside of session. Us talking about it in counseling, that's great. But I only see you for such a small amount of time throughout the week. So give yourself 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour.
00:52:23
Speaker
where you're journaling, where you're just thinking through whatever's going wrong, and at least recognizing this problem's here. And I might not have the answer right now, but I recognize it's here.
00:52:39
Speaker
Then the rest of the time, go back to distracting yourself. Go find some, albeit not drinking, find a healthier distraction, but almost giving them permission to distract, but not at the expense of not doing the work and not actually digging into what the problem is. If they're a Christian, I'm definitely going to recommend, you know, what does scripture say about this? Are you praying about it?
00:53:06
Speaker
Are you still going to church? Are you just running away from your spirituality? Because yeah, that's going to affect your mental well-being. If you know there's a problem and you're not praying about it, that's not going to work out very well for you. So I'm going to really try to get them to focus on that issue.
00:53:26
Speaker
But not all day, every day. So I want them to use their distractions, but use them in a healthier manner and not to just avoid whatever's going wrong.
Faith and Mental Health
00:53:38
Speaker
So speaking of, you mentioned that if you're talking to one who is a Christian, how much of your approach changes to those who aren't Christians?
00:53:48
Speaker
Because I have a theory, right? And let me run the theory by you. There's a friend of mine that actually was a dorm advisor at the time. He ran all the dorms at the university at Albany. And he actually was a pastor. And now he's gone. His name is Charles Rogers. He's gone, actually, into doing chaplain work. And he used to tell me, Jonathan, when people come in and speak to me,
00:54:14
Speaker
I still provide them the scripture. I just don't tell them the chapter and verse. That doesn't change who I am. So that's what I want to ask you. When you're dealing with one who isn't a believer, what is your approach and do you compromise a change in
00:54:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a fantastic question. And I love that example. I would say by and large, that's kind of how I approach that. And there is, there's some wisdom involved, depending on who my clientele is. If they are real resistant and they're upfront of resistant to any and all religion, I'm not going to just say
00:54:53
Speaker
Have you thought about going to church today? Um, that's probably not going to build up that relationship very well. So, but there is strategic ways. And what I will say, and this kind of goes into some of the topics we had before. I don't change. I'm not going for the person that comes to me and says, Oh, well you write me a, a letter so I can get this gender affirming care surgery or whatever.
00:55:21
Speaker
The answer is no. It doesn't matter if they are a Christian or not in that situation. Those values, that faith that I have supersedes everything, whether that individual is a Christian or not, whether that's going to get me their business or not. Ultimately, that doesn't really matter because
00:55:42
Speaker
Again, the values of faith is above that. And so I try to use wisdom. I don't come out and I'm not quite as explicit as I would be that someone that is a Christian that comes to my practice that says, hey, I want specifically Christian counseling. We're going to be more explicit, but the one that's not
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah, I use very much the same type of value system. It's just not quite as explicit in the language of the content I'm talking to. So here's a challenging question. Being married and being in your profession, how do you not take the approach you take as a counselor
00:56:31
Speaker
when you're talking to your wife. And does your wife recognize, like, don't do that to me like you did with your clients? What is your pros on that? What's your view on that? Good question. I actually think that
00:56:46
Speaker
I probably benefited some in this regards that I was a counselor before I was married. So I had a little bit of practice, but before I met her. So my first full-time counseling job, I made it this kind of discipline of mine. So this job was actually a home-based one. So I was going and visiting foster kids actually in their home.
00:57:13
Speaker
and I had a rule that my last client when I came home and some of these clients were late some of them were like eight o'clock in the evening some of them it might be an early day and I'm done at one um in the afternoon but regardless that last one I was done there was no more notes there was no more studying um I kind of just intellectually took off the counselor hat and now I'm
00:57:43
Speaker
at the time, you know, I'm just a friend, I had roommates, we'd go watch a game or play a video game or whatever. But it was a very intentional role shift when I got home that I'm no longer a counselor. And that was really important for me because I was pretty, I was new at the time, I was inexperienced. And some of the things that I saw were difficult.
00:58:07
Speaker
And I knew if I didn't get ahold of that, then it's going to overtake me and it's going to affect my relationships. I'm going to get into that bitterness, into that anger and apathy like we talked about on my podcast. That was going to be me. And I really developed a good discipline of taking that hat on and off. And I'm not going to say I'm perfect at that now, but
00:58:34
Speaker
I think over the years, I really have just developed a good discipline there of when I'm done with that client, I'm done. And I'll say when it comes to my wife, there are some times where that counseling type of approach is sometimes where it can be beneficial because a lot of counseling is honestly just listening.
00:59:00
Speaker
kind of hearing out concerns. So there's times where that's sometimes beneficial. But yeah, I just feel like that's not been as big of a struggle for me because of that first discipline I did from the get-go. But it is a legitimate fear and concern that a lot of counselors go through. So it's only right that I ask you this. Do you believe counselors need a counselor?
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah, that kind of goes back into, and this is a big philosophical debate, there's actually some counseling programs that require you to have a counselor. And I do disagree with that. I think that goes back into the mindset, does everybody need counseling?
00:59:48
Speaker
And do I think some counselors could absolutely benefit from it? Yes, I do. Especially those more inexperienced counselors or yeah, you just, I mean, sometimes counselors have rough stuff. They might have a client that they had that, that killed themselves. Like that, that's really hard to, to go through that. So in those situations, the counselor does need to be, um,
01:00:13
Speaker
wise, they need to understand where is my emotional state at. And in fact, we do have ethical codes that if I had something really distressing, happening in my life, and I am just kind of a wreck, not only is it
01:00:31
Speaker
a good thing for me to get counseling or get treatment. It's actually unethical for me to not, not to not get counseling, but to treat somebody when I'm a mess. Like if the client saying something and I'm crying more than the client every five seconds, I'm not going to be much help. So I think in those situations that client or that counselor needs to be wise, but if you're in a great frame of mind and things are going great,
01:00:59
Speaker
I don't care if you're a counselor or not. You don't need counseling in those time period. So I would definitely disagree with that. Okay. So how does faith impact your mental health? Well, I think that it's...
01:01:17
Speaker
Faith impacts, again, kind of that bigger sphere. It impacts everything. It impacts all of us. It impacts even our physical health to a degree, just off of, you know, if we think our body's a temple and all of that stuff. So, yeah, it affects your mental health. It affects everything.
01:01:41
Speaker
I think that's something that particularly the more kind of extreme atheistic type of counselor or psychologist that, and I do have a segregation here, I can have a colleague that doesn't believe in God that I have quite a bit more respect for than a colleague that doesn't believe in God, and that becomes their religion of
01:02:09
Speaker
Basically, they're trying to convert clients into not having faith. They might challenge a Christian. Oh, well, do you really believe that? And just all these things to almost try to actively get away from their faith. And that's wrong. That's not your role by any means to do that. So I think that it's important for individuals, particularly Christians, to embrace that faith and
01:02:38
Speaker
realize if my spiritual health is off, my mental health is probably off. And there's the temptation as a Christian counselor to just say, oh, we'll just pray it and you'll be fine. And there is a degree there where yes, we do need to pray, but it's not always quite that simple that I just say one prayer and now I have no pain. Like,
01:03:04
Speaker
I don't think that's biblical. You look through all the Psalms. They are crying out to God all these awful, horrible things. It's not just a one-pray and you're good to go. So we don't want to make it too shallow, but there's this concept of spiritual depression. I actually read this book.
01:03:27
Speaker
It's by Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones. It's kind of a, a confirmation of his, of his sermons. And he has this great quote of saying that you need to, instead of listening to yourself, you need to talk to yourself. And what he means by that is listening to yourself is, well, my dad died. I feel horrible. I'm depressed. It's never going to get any better. That's listening to yourself.
01:03:54
Speaker
talking to yourself is really bringing that scripture, bringing that truth and actively speaking that into your life, actively having others speak that into your life, instead of just listening to how horrible things are going in your life. So all that being said, if you are a Bible-believing Christian and your spiritual life is completely out of whack,
01:04:20
Speaker
You're going to have mental health concerns and we need to be able to address that to have improvement. And for me, speaking from personal experience.
01:04:32
Speaker
I think one thing that helps is the Holy Spirit convicts you and you feel it. That's my experience. You do something you know you probably shouldn't have done. He lets you know about it. And I don't mean for those practical people out there, there's a feeling, right? I always talk about Ezekiel 2838 about God giving you a new heart, a responsive heart.
01:04:54
Speaker
That response of heart is very sensitive to the choices and decisions you make. And, you know, and I believe it's Mark when it talks about, don't grieve, I believe believers in Galatians 2, don't grieve the Holy Spirit. It's really talking about like certain decisions and choices that you make that are counterative to the keynote of God message.
01:05:18
Speaker
You know it. You know it because it's going to take you a while for you to shake it off. You're going to feel it. So I think that's the big difference between the believer and unbeliever. The believer, once we've agreed and accepted Christ as Lord of our lives,
01:05:35
Speaker
You know, unfortunately, there are things that we do that once we're saved, we're going to be convicted of. And that whole conviction process is for us to get out of those certain habits into better habits that aren't, is not reflecting what we agree to be a part of.
01:05:53
Speaker
And I guess for those who don't know, it happens to do with not being held accountable and not accepting Christ into your life. So you can run rapid, you can, you know, make choices where you don't feel guilty about. And I always say for us as conviction is a difference between conviction
Conviction vs. Guilt and Life Priorities
01:06:11
Speaker
and guilt. The guilt is what they feel when they say, oh, you know, don't, don't throw that in my face. I'm not that. And it's true. If you're not a believer, then of course, not being a believer means you don't understand those sensitive topics and choices and how it really plays a role and how it can affect you negatively. But for us, the conviction is it forces us to repent.
01:06:38
Speaker
And even in the repentance aspects, the repentance is not just asking for forgiveness, it's to change behavior God is employing us to act and do. And that's not always easy, right? You know, when God said that He breathed the breath of life in us, we originally were the dust of the earth, right? No value, no significance, nothing. And God wants us to stand above the soles of our feet, become who?
01:07:04
Speaker
he believed he created us to be. And part of doing that is taking accountability and making life choices for the betterment of not just your mental health, but for relationship, right? I would say this. In 1 John, it says, God is light. In him is no darkness at all. If we claim to be in fellowship with him, but yet walk in the darkness, we do not live out the truth.
01:07:30
Speaker
or that's our relationship, our fellowship is associated with walking in life. And if he's called us to be holy as he is, then that also plays a role in us making changes. And those changes are either going to be a part of our growth and development, or it's going to be something that tells us and keeps us from getting God's best, right? Getting access to what God wants to do for us. So that,
01:07:59
Speaker
Nice of me to ask you this question. What is it important? What is it? You know, why is it important to to be open with your values? Yeah, it's it kind of just leads into some of the other stuff that we've we've talked about that my values are not they're not important because I hold them. I I can value
01:08:24
Speaker
I don't
01:08:39
Speaker
It's a hunk of metal. It's really nothing in the grand scheme of things. As long as those values come just from me, it's really nothing. That doesn't mean that much. My values alone are important. It's where they're derived from.
01:09:01
Speaker
I'm not going to say that all of my values are 100% correct. I learn and grow every day and there's probably some things that I need to get better at, at what I value. But the important things, my faith.
01:09:16
Speaker
It's not important because of I believe it. It's because of God. It's because He made this world and it's His rules that we're playing by. And that's important for me to communicate and not just have a, you know, well, it's more expedient for me to just be quiet and not really open up like
01:09:37
Speaker
Maybe want gender-affirming care. I just won't really deal with it, but I'm not going to say anything. I could do that, but is that really what I need to be doing? Do I have a platform where I can actually speak truth and help cause some changes here? Again, I say these values, that's not because I'm important or my viewpoints are the best.
01:10:04
Speaker
It's because of Christ. I want everything in my life to point back to Him.
01:10:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think what you said is beautiful because, you know, when we put value into things, you know, Jesus made it clear, like don't build your wealth here where more for dust collects. He says build it in heaven, right? Or, or even when we, you know, people in this preparation of stacking, whether in the scripture where it talks about building another vineyard to hold most of your stuff, you know, God puts people in power and He removes them.
01:10:38
Speaker
and God in Ecclesiastes gives people the entitlement to enjoy their wealth while in others it dwindles and people die and wealth gets transferred, right? So as long as we understand that the access to whether it's fame, fortune, a lot of that is done because God wants to use you as this instrument for righteousness.
01:11:02
Speaker
And if, and you know, if he's going to do that, he has to trust you and he has to know that the values that you
01:11:11
Speaker
that He instilled in you, come out, your Christian values come out in the things that you have, that you're not just being selfish and you're not just being about you, right? Don't just pray about what your concerns are. Be concerned about the issues that are with other people, right? And I think that, you know, this idea of selflessness is something that we probably need to raise the value of. Because, you know, we're also in this age of, you know,
01:11:39
Speaker
self-care about me, everything that's happening for me. And I gotta make sure this is, you know, I kind of want to tap into this too. When we talk about love, we understand that God is love. We also understand love is to give at the expense of oneself to benefit the one who is to receive it. And we get that example from Christ giving himself up for ransom for us.
01:12:09
Speaker
And the two most important commandments, love your neighbor as yourself, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. This application for love has to do with loving others before you love yourself. And I think a lot of people don't realize that by loving others, God can love through you. So this desire for self-love
01:12:33
Speaker
You know, the desire for self-love is not a problem, but when you're only concerned about yourself and not about others, that goes against why God wants us to love others and care for others. Because in return, not only is he going to do the loving through you, but you're loved by him.
01:12:51
Speaker
And I think it's just the IDs new ideologies that people keep coming up with and injecting it into society is causing people to have identity crisis. So when you see some of these things, and I guess I can ask you this, what would you say is a frequent concern that you come across with most
01:13:18
Speaker
And I'm not asking you to share any personal client information, but generally what would you say is of your most concern? And hopefully by the end that we can try to pray for and hope that these things could be uplifted.
01:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that self-care movement is a big one and a lot of it is just a fundamental just misunderstanding of of what selfishness is and what humility is. Some people will go in and say like man, I've just I've put other people above me my whole life. I need to work on me and
01:14:03
Speaker
Well, really what they mean in most of these circumstances is I'm constantly doing things for other people. I'm a mom, I'm taking care of all my kids stuff and then I'm doing stuff at work and then I'm doing, taking care of things for my friends. Um, and I don't have any time to myself.
01:14:22
Speaker
And I get what they're saying. And there is an extent there where if we're gonna use that terminology of self-care, of self-love, that those aspects are healthy for that individual. The problem is just our underpinnings, our understanding of what's going wrong. When those individuals, most of the time, I don't think they all have a,
01:14:49
Speaker
very evil heart of trying to just have the intention of being selfish in those situations but it kind of sounds weird to say but oftentimes when you're doing so much for other people that actually can be a more selfish thing to do than to have a night not at home and take care of yourself.
01:15:15
Speaker
Here's what I mean by that, that if I'm so busy doing things for other people, just because I have a hard time saying no, and I'm neglecting other parts of my life that are more important, like for me, I love my friends, I spend time with my friends, but if I've had a long week at work,
01:15:38
Speaker
My role is more important at home to spend time with my family. So if my friends want to go out and there's that conflict, me saying yes to them, I'm actually saying no to my family. I'm not telling them that. But there's this conflict of roles, conflict of values going on there. And that's really what's at the heart of the problem there with people that are overextending themselves.
01:16:07
Speaker
They have a hard time saying no to that person, but they're saying no to something else in their life. That actually can be a form of selfishness because you're not doing the hard thing of telling somebody no that is maybe not a zero priority, but a lesser priority to something you should already be doing. Essentially, we just don't want to have conflict in those situations.
01:16:35
Speaker
that really does get to selfishness. If I don't want to say no to you because I don't want to deal with conflict, that's not humility. That really is a form of selfishness. So we need to be able to have those correct definitions and correct terminology, because now that's all of a sudden flipping it on its head. And if I had a really rough week or whatever, and
01:16:59
Speaker
my friend, my coworker, or this event, they really want my help. But I realized, look, I want to help you. I don't intend anything rude by this, but I know if I don't go home tonight and really rest, I'm not going to be as fruitful of a mother, of a father, of whatever. So I'm going to have to decline.
01:17:25
Speaker
That is so different than saying, I got to put myself first. I got to self love myself to death. You might be doing the same actions, but the language there is so important. So I think that's so incredibly important for people that are feeling overwhelmed.
01:17:45
Speaker
Why are you feeling overwhelmed and what's your motivation there? You're not God like we are called to help others. Yes, but we're not God we have limitations so Recognizing your limitations that actually could be a humble thing of realizing I'm tapped out
01:18:04
Speaker
That actually can be a more humble thing than throwing yourself into everything and everything. But yeah, we start using that language of self-love and self-care, even though I don't think those all have horrible intentions, it can turn to selfishness very quickly. And we just need to be very cautious on that.
01:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's good. I think you hit the nail on the coffin. And I think, like you said, I think so often it's the terminology that we're using and the way that we're coming off. And I think if we worded it better and we included some of the circumstances, I think people would be more empathetic of what it is that you're sharing with them, right?
01:18:47
Speaker
And I'm a big proponent of separating the two, the empathetic aspect versus the sympathetic aspect. Because anyone who takes into consideration the history, along with how things have gone so far, I think they have a better understanding of the view that you're coming with. And therefore, there'd be more
01:19:07
Speaker
welcoming and understanding versus if you're speaking from a place of being sympathetic and automatically they assume that you assume that you're at a different place than they are and therefore as a result, you have to just accept what it is that I'm saying because this is not the place you're at now. So yeah, I think the way you worded it was perfect. Is there anything else that you feel like sharing that's on your heart, that's on your mind that you think could benefit the audience?
01:19:36
Speaker
Yeah, I would really just say by and large that oftentimes you know, like you're saying, that conviction, the Holy Spirit's convicting me about something. Oftentimes you do know a direction that either you should be going or at least that you should dig in a little bit deeper. So I would encourage you that if those things are going on, don't ignore it. Don't run away from it.
01:20:04
Speaker
Talk to your pastor, talk to your spouse, pray about it, and then do. Don't wait. This kind of goes into my podcast, some of the things we talk about. Don't wait to have it all figured out. Yes, we do need to pray about it, be wise, but we're not called to have everything all figured out and then act. We're called to have faith. When you know that direction, you should be going. Go and do it.
01:20:34
Speaker
If you're wrong, let's go back and correct it. But don't sit there in fear and just passivity. Go and do. We are just not called to sit back and wait for God to take us and then we just go home. Like we're called to be active on this earth. So I would just really encourage everybody to be active and don't run away from those things that you don't want to deal with.
01:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, there was something that I did, an episode I did, and I said, you want to have concerns, not worries, because the concerns are fixable. The worries is what then starts to tap into your psyche and then you get to a point where you're fearful, right? We know that we're beautifully, wonderfully made. We know that God did not call us, we're not supposed to experience
01:21:25
Speaker
the spirit of fear, but of love in a sound mind. And I'm a big proponent of addressing the concerns because they're still salvageable.
01:21:34
Speaker
Like you said, once it gets past that stage, that worry turns into fear, and that fear turns into actions and choices that are detrimental to your growth and development. You want to avoid those things. You don't want to get to a degree where now it's seeping into other areas in your life, and you're sacrificing, and it's interfering with your character. You don't want those things.
01:21:59
Speaker
So yeah, tell my audience, and man, I would love to have you on, because we could talk for hours. There's so many different topics and points we can discuss, and I think these conversations are healthy, and I believe we're both doing that. So to tell my audience where they can reach you, your podcast, your information, your business, put it all out. Sure.
01:22:19
Speaker
Sure, so start with my business truth and grace counseling. So again, I'm in I'm a duck in Oklahoma So those that are in that area I actually meet at my at my church to see clients there But I also do telehealth throughout Oklahoma in Texas. So that website is www truth and grace counseling calm and then my
01:22:43
Speaker
my podcast. So it's really just in the midst of rebranding, but that's faithfullyengaged.com. I'm also there on Twitter. Let me think about this for a second because faithfully engaged wouldn't fit. It's faithful engaged.
01:23:01
Speaker
faithful engaged there on Twitter so that's kind of Twitter is kind of the main place where I will engage with people and but yeah those are the main spots to come and find me and any listeners that want to add me or follow me I would I would welcome to it any Instagram I do have an Instagram I'm a little bit
01:23:26
Speaker
Well, so here's the concern since I'm in the midst of changing up my branding. It's under Truth and Grace counseling right now, but when this airs, it'll probably be under Faithfully Engaged. So search one of the two and you will find it. And then Facebook, actually, I'm glad you mentioned that because literally last night I just made a Faithfully Engaged Facebook and then there's a Truth and Grace counseling Facebook there as well.
01:23:56
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Because we have a Facebook group called Unbeliever and it's just there to motivate and it's all for Romans 1.12. Let us be mutually encouraged by one another's faith. So that's where we are. So you want to give people access because we don't want to just... And I'm a proponent of this on any podcast that I go on. You don't want to just pop on a podcast and then if someone's really interested in talking, they have no access to you. They don't want to talk to you.
01:24:21
Speaker
they want they you know people think that you're viewing them like I'm a pastor or I'm a person of God but you can't talk to me but the value that I provide you can hear me but there's no way we could talk at any stage at any moment so we want to try to employ that and give people access
Spiritual Guidance and Relationship Growth
01:24:39
Speaker
to step in to where they believe God is calling. And sometimes we're in waiting places where God is working on us and developing us. We live our lives on levels. We arrive in stages and it happens in seasons. And sometimes these things take time. That's why the quality of your thinking can determine the quality of your life. And in order to get on that path,
01:25:04
Speaker
Right? It takes time. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with development and taking time. Just like, as you stated, knowing you have the problem and working towards the solution. Oh, absolutely. Actually, there is one question that I'm curious to ask, and I've always been a proponent of this, and I want to get your thoughts before we close out in prayer.
01:25:28
Speaker
I'm a big proponent and believer of confrontation. And I understand how that sounds. But the reason why I believe I'm a big proponent of confrontation, because confrontation, when you get into it, the goal is to some extent lead to a solution. There has to be a solution from the confrontation. And most people, when they encounter confrontation,
01:25:51
Speaker
they immediately reject the conflict, right? And I'm like, I'm saying to myself, I'm kicking myself. I didn't ask you this earlier. So when you deal with people that have these periods of conflict in relationships and friendships and in any sort of engagement acquaintances, how should a person view the conflict that they just got into?
01:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, great, great question. And I'll kind of give you a couple of stories here. One, I was in college and I had this marriage and family class and the professor, he kind of liked shock value type of things.
01:26:34
Speaker
And he said that he had this family client or this marriage counseling situation and he said that he encouraged this couple to fight in front of their children or to have an argument in front of their children. And of course all the class is just stunned silence. Like what are you talking about? That sounds like a horrible idea. And then he kind of walked it back a little bit and explained
01:26:58
Speaker
what he meant was he wanted them to be able to engage in conflict in a such a healthy way that they could do that in front of their children in order that their children would learn how to deal with conflict in a healthier way. And that was just kind of a mind blowing moment for me of
01:27:19
Speaker
Oh, like, that makes sense. As parents, we want our children to learn things from us. And if we're keeping all arguments behind closed doors, how are they going to learn? How are they going to know to have confrontation? So I share this with a, this is a more personal example of how confrontation can be helpful, like you were saying, early on in our marriage. My wife and I, we're, we're
01:27:47
Speaker
by and large, we didn't have too many arguments. But of course, I mentioned before I was single for some time after grad school and working. So living with other bachelors, if I threw the socks and the dirty hamper, and it made it in great, if it didn't, whatever, like, it's all still a bunch of dudes, we didn't really care. And so I developed some of these bad habits. And
01:28:16
Speaker
There was a time that my wife stopped me and she's like, Hey, Johnny, when you put dirty clothes and, and the dirty, or dirty socks and the clothes hamper, just actually put them in there and don't put them into a ball. Just put them in there. And it's not like it was rocket science. I mean, I knew that's what you're supposed to do. I just was a single dude for all these years and didn't think about it.
01:28:41
Speaker
And that was that. Like I said, okay. And now we don't have that argument anymore. I consciously tried to do that, but had she not brought that up? Had we not had that confrontation?
01:28:53
Speaker
Who knows? That could have built in with her individually. She could have gotten really angry at me. I would have had no idea. Now I'm angry at her. And it would have gotten worse. That confrontation was actually a really loving, healthy thing that my wife did. And I'm very glad that she did. So the issue is how we handle conflict, not conflict itself. And I think that's really important that everybody understands.
01:29:20
Speaker
All right, beautiful. Thanks so much for touching on that. So ladies and gentlemen, this is Johnny Sanders. So if you don't mind praying this out. Absolutely. All right, let's pray. Dear Lord, thank you so much for your love that you gave us that nobody here, nobody listening, none of us on this earth deserve to have, but you give it to us anyways. And we're so,
01:29:50
Speaker
incredibly thankful and gracious for that love that you give us. I've really prayed for this conversation that we had today. I pray for the listeners that they would grasp something from this, that they would learn something from this. If either of us had misspoke or we misrepresented scripture in a way, I pray for conviction on either of our parts, knowing that it was not intentional, but still that we learn and grow and that we learn and grow from your scripture.
01:30:19
Speaker
And I pray for those that are in the audience that they would hold your scripture highly, that they would read it, not out of a religious devotion just to do it, but to learn more about you and to learn and to grow. And I pray for any of those that are struggling, whether it's a mental health concern or a spiritual concern, that they would not run away from that.
01:30:43
Speaker
but that they would handle it head on. And if they need to talk to somebody about it, great. And I pray that you give them the courage to do so, but if they know the answers they need to do and they're not doing it, I pray for conviction that they would just get it done. So grateful for this podcast, for this talk of being able to speak about your truth on podcast where there's many podcasts that are not that way. And again, we're just so grateful
01:31:11
Speaker
Again for that that love that you give us in the name of prayer. Amen