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The Truth Of The Matter Is - Episode: 177 Bible Study Reflection Solo or W/Friends- Allen Russell: Purposeful Responding With Wisdom While Respecting Imagine Barrie's Of CHRIST
13 Plays7 hours ago
Bible study reflection solo or with friends is an inspirational segment for Johnathan as a result of getting together for bible study with friends Erik and Jennifer and still having more to say. Thus far, the segment has been about unpacking different passages of scripture read in bible study and still feeling the need to explore things more deeply. Another wrinkle that has been added to this segment is to address real life situations through a biblical lens and with that being said this week Allen Russell from church dropout podcast joins the show to discuss the importance of proper communication respectfully while remembering that we all Barrie the imagine of Christ. Tune in as we dive into why we shouldn't lose sight of this!
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
This is the Truth of the Matters podcast, and welcome back for another edition of Bible Study Reflections, Solo or with Friends. It's just episode 177. I'm your host, Jonathan. And for those who are unfamiliar with this segment, let me give you a quick background story. It was inspired by a Bible study that I had with two of my friends that we did once a week. Basically, we would come together, choose a book in the Bible to unpack, and then at first read them individually and see what we could unpack by ourselves.
00:00:30
Speaker
Then we will come together and fellowship with one another and learn about what we believe God has revealed to us individually. Remember how scripture says, any time two or three are gathered, they are mine and you're missed? What I concluded from these conversations, these talks that I will have, is that I'll still be full of information and yet curious about a lot of things.
00:00:51
Speaker
So I decided to create this segment called Bible study reflection solo with friends. To me, the goal ultimately was to grow and fellowship with others. So if you are open to fellowshiping with me on the next Bible study reflection episode,
00:01:07
Speaker
of course solo with friends. You can reach out to me on any of these, TikTok, Instagram, and that is the truth of TMIS. Again, it's called the truth of TMIS. And of course we can fellowship with one another. You can also reach out to me on my Facebook group called I'm a Believer. Again, it's called I'm a Believer.
00:01:28
Speaker
and of course this email speedit83 at gmail.com s p e e d e d 83 at gmail.com and i'm looking forward to hearing from some of you so of course normally the last few times i've done this sort of segment i've done it solo but today i actually have a friend a friend that i've met we sort of cultivated friendships we've been chatting for quite some time And what better way than to introduce him to this segment? And he goes by Allen. How you doing today, sir? Man, I am well, man. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, man. I'm looking forward to it. Big listener, big fan, man. Big fan of you, man. Appreciate your friendship, but, man, I'm glad to be here. Yeah, so can you at least tell my audience a little bit about what you have going on in the YouTube space? Yeah, so i my wife and I, we host a podcast known as Church Dropout.
00:02:21
Speaker
And it's a podcast that where we talk about issues, topics, and teachings related to faith, life, and culture. And we generally talk about church and church culture and things that are related to that.
00:02:33
Speaker
Um, we've been doing it for it consistently for about a year now. Um, you know, together, um I might have some solo episodes as well, but the, you know, the main thrust of the podcast is really to, you know, provoke our thoughts in terms of wrapping our identity around our identity in Christ. And then also reestablish what the church is supposed to be doing in culture and, uh, being on mission, loving Jesus, loving others. Um, you know, and so, yeah, so that's what we do a little bit there on YouTube.
00:03:02
Speaker
nice nice so here on the truth of the matters podcast i guess the first thing we we try to do is and they know the most second we'll talk about one or two ways we feel like the lord has blessed us so i'll do the honors of going first and then i'll let you go right after so one way i feel like the lord has blessed me this week is that he's shown me there's so much to grow when it actually comes to continuously having conversations and interactions with people. And it's so interesting that when you meet different people from different backgrounds, different experiences, how they were raised is different. You sort of have to filter through a sense of what I would call empathy.
00:03:49
Speaker
And that empathy is rather important because without it, you will sort of have this blindfold on to believe that everyone walks and does everything the same. And I've learned continuously which is sort of like what I want to get into today.
00:04:06
Speaker
but just for starters i just want to talk about how god has shown me that hey when it comes to communicating with people is important that you have to have not just an open perspective but you need to be mindful of the fact that you're going to interact with people who have so many different differences and sees the world completely different than you and you have to be okay with that right I also learned you can't police everyone and get them to see things from your perspective, right? You just have to be open to other perspectives outside of your own. Be mindful of them and yet don't allow it to ultimately sway you outside of what you believe unless it's going to influence you or change.
00:04:51
Speaker
how you see the world in a positive way. So for now, to keep it short, that's just one way I feel like the Lord is blessing me this week. He's opened my eyes to that reality. And I think each and every day I'm trying and striving to see it that way as opposed to my own way, which works for me, but doesn't work to be in concert with other people and where they come from. No, man, that is that is really good. And I could echo that. I think you know, lately, I would say, even, you know, this week, ah majority of how the Lord has been working with me has been through my, my family, and um how he's been teaching me mainly through my kids, and teaching me what faithfulness and what true obedience
00:05:38
Speaker
um you know, looks like and what it means to have a a simple trust, not as simplistic, but a simple trust in God that he is a provider that he takes care of us and that he wants the best for. So my kids have been you know, teaching me, um you know, ah how to, I guess, rest in that reality. And I'll just say one main way that that has happened is just through the area of forgiveness. And our kids just, you know, no matter how much we fail as parents, or how much they fail each other as siblings, I got 21813.
00:06:14
Speaker
um they continually um demonstrate love towards us or towards one another. It just it passes so quickly that um they almost operate in this essence of forgiveness and it's just been teaching me ah really how to function properly in relationships with others and you know how to find beauty in forgiveness and to be more childlike in the sense of faith as the scripture would tell us so um I tend to learn through, you know, through those type of challenges with my family, um you know, and just seeing those type of realities. But I said this week, that's where that's where I've been. Amen. Amen. So what that means, say we're going to start with prayer and we're going to dive into what we hope I believe is going to be a great conversation for those who are listening and
00:06:57
Speaker
I believe they'll be blessed by it. So heavenly father, Lord, in Jesus name, we just want to thank you for the good moments that bring us joy and excitement. We want to thank you for the moments where things are tough, where we want to cry out and question your methods and tensions and the reasons behind what we go through on a daily basis. Lord, I know part of us.
00:07:21
Speaker
As believers, it's carrying across as you told us that we have to carry our own cross. You carry the cross on Calvary for our sins, which opens the door for us to repent access to you, Lord. You know, we thank you for.
00:07:37
Speaker
so much for the opportunities the doors that you open that bless us but we also thank you for the doors that you close the doors that you don't allow us to walk through and you know we thank you for your word of instruction do it all Even though it's uncomfortable, I know that you will never leave us nor forsake us. And because I know you are not the alter confusion, I know that in this confused state that the world is in, we ought to pray for it. We ought to ask for not just your guidance, but also to set us free from everything that is surrounding us, but to place our trust and faith in you, because we know that you're not just a person
00:08:24
Speaker
who's for forgiven, but you're a person who leads, who directs, who orchestrates things behind the scenes that blesses us and allows us to continue to persevere what also give thanks to you. Lord, I thank you for Allen. I thank you for his presence. I thank you for his time. I thank you for allowing us to come together and have conversations, not just about your word, but about life and about how we intend to live the Christian difference in this world, this broken world. Lord, I know you're a God who not only for forgives, but you're a God who also punishes. So I thank you for those moments and times because without it, I wouldn't be where I am today.
00:09:08
Speaker
With that being said, Lord, as I talk through my learning experiences today, I pray that it can be a blessing to someone. I pray that we will use it to change the way we see not just your love for us, but your love for others, right? Because there is a such thing as tough love. There is a such thing as love that needs to be parched in a way where feelings don't necessarily get hurt, but that we meet them where they are.
00:09:35
Speaker
Because we we do live our lives on levels, we do arrive in stages, and it does happen in seasons. And those are completely different for everyone else. And Lord, we have to acknowledge that moving forward. And with that being said, Lord, we thank you, we honor you, we give you all the glory and praise. And we ask that in this conversation, you're the one that's glorified and lifted up. And Lord, we say this humbly, honestly, with shorty. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.
00:10:02
Speaker
Amen. So one of the things I wanted to bring up Alan that I think has been pivotal in terms of my growth, not just in relationship with people, but in relationship with myself, is this this idea of self control. Right. And one of the things that I see quite often that happens is that we're constantly interacting with people.
00:10:27
Speaker
not knowing where they come from, not knowing their experiences, not knowing what they're dealing with. But what we do know is that the mindset, the thought process that we have as believers is is is what Paul suggests us that we ought to do, right? Think about such things that are lovely, that are true, that are noble, that are right, that are excellent, that are praiseworthy, meditate on such things.
00:10:51
Speaker
And what I've realized is that in some cases, that verse is is very much the standard, but it's not everyone's situation and circumstance, right? It's not what everyone is thinking about. But I think the key factor in that verse when Paul mentions it is he says to do it as he is, that he does it, but he also says this is what we should meditate on, right? Which means it's completely separate from what we're dealing with, but that is sort of the mindset we also have when we step into spaces that are unfamiliar to us. So we talk to people that are dealing with things that we know nothing about. And there's been this sense of thing, there' this this there's been this sort of experience that I've been going through
00:11:38
Speaker
where I've been dealing with people who are suffering in so many different ways, whether it's their living conditions, whether it's the lack of love that they're not experiencing at home, whether it is the turmoil that they're dealing with that they carry Everywhere they go and One of the things that I was I was thinking about Was the passage in James right when he says be quick to listen slow to speak slow to become angry because human anger is not the righteousness that God our father desires from us and It's amazing to me how the word itself has this
00:12:21
Speaker
this calmness, if you read it intentionally, to give you the mindset you also have when you're faced with things that people bring to you, right? And and I just wanted to highlight this because I've sort of just been in this whirlwind of constantly dealing with two types of spirits, right? And I've i've spoken about this before, a benevolent spirit versus a benevolent spirit. And what I mean by spirit in the context is, you know, those qualities regarding us forming like definitive or typical elements of in a person's character, right? Or a person who might present an attitude or
00:13:06
Speaker
an attitude that subscribes to a certain situation, right? So a benevolent person leads to me as a certain type of attitude, a very intentional vibe that they have, right? You recognize it once it comes knocking, right? Their presence themselves are kind, they're kind individuals, right? They're helpful, they're friendly, they're warm, I would say they're terrible, they're selfless, loving, so forth and so forth, right? We're a benevolent spirit, right? It's a person who deliberately carries a spirit around them looking to divide, right? Cause, confusion, worry, right? They're very negative, hostile, argumentative, stubborn, rude, right? And I've realized that
00:13:51
Speaker
When you enter different spaces, these are individuals that have these type of spirits on them. And I know it it gets very convoluted when they say, well, what do you mean, a spirit? And I mean, it exactly what what I said, right? They carry something on them that can change the experience that you have in in a room just like that, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
So I guess I want to get your thoughts on a lot of what I said. Do you agree with it? Do you experience it yourself? And maybe what are some ways that you find that is useful to combat some of those things that you come across with people and what they bring in your space?
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, I mean, I agree with with a lot of what you just said, um you know, definitely experienced that. I definitely think there is a presence ah that people carry. And um that presence definitely affects an environment and ah can affect your space. So I definitely agree with that. And I love how you put it, you know, it could be benevolent Orman, you know,
00:15:00
Speaker
or manelavent. Now I get that L mixed up there. but um But yeah, you know, I think that that's absolutely true. And you know, one of the scriptures that came to mind when you said that was a scripture that I often think about in Proverbs where, you know, it says, you know, to guard our hearts, above all things, for out of it flows the wellspring, you know, of life, right? It's the center of our being, it's the core of who we are.
00:15:27
Speaker
It, in essence, is where we live from. We live from that part of our being, the depths of our being and how the Scripture says that we we ought to guard that.
00:15:38
Speaker
And, you know, I think for me, you know, the older I get, um the more I sit at the feet of Jesus, um the more I understand the need to protect and to ensure that ah there are boundaries um that that I'm guarding my heart and guarding where I'm living from.
00:16:05
Speaker
um And that would include just the presence of of those spirits, as you say, or those ah mindsets and attitudes that tend to have an effect on our space. Now, the reality is, is that we can't, you know, we're sometimes we're in positions where we can't ah guard that in the sense of, you know, removing ourselves, right? We work in the real world. Some of us do, right? Some of us work in the real world, some people work in the church, and not to say that's not the real world, but there's different, there's different realms.
00:16:32
Speaker
if you work a job in the marketplace, you know, it's a little bit more difficult, right to, um you know, to separate yourself, um you know, because you have to work ah with individuals and different things of that sort. But I think the principle still remains the same. um You know, I think that the main thing that I've done is is really learn how to guard my heart. And and and for some, in some situations, that means it either removing myself, obviously, you know, taking inventory on what I'm taking in,
00:17:02
Speaker
um you know, what I'm giving myself to. And even in those conversations, those situations where I'm dealing with someone who I can't necessarily separate from, um I'm also recognized that I don't have to give myself to parts of those conversations. So I just told a friend of mine earlier this week, he was sending some stuff that, you know, he was thinking through ah um that was happening within the church space.
00:17:28
Speaker
And, and I had a conversation was like, Hey, you know, I got to protect my piece here, you know, and so, um man, yeah those aren't things that I want to, I need to see right now, those aren't things that I want to engage in right now, I want a very specific path.
00:17:43
Speaker
And, um and how to make a decision on like, hey, you know, love you. But those are some conversations, man, that in this season, you know, um I am I am avoiding not because they're not pertinent conversations, but they're not getting me to where I feel I need to be or protecting or guarding my own heart. Right. And in that sense, it was judgment and different things of that sort. and So I would say the main thing is, and and i'll and I'll pass it back to you. And you know, we can continue to dialogue is just you know, doing what the scripture says, man, is guarding, you know, guarding the place where we live from. So that's, you know, taking an inventory on what you're taking in, whether it's with your eyes, ah with what you're touching with your hands, and where you're walking with your feet, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, guarding yourself in multiple ways. And then the last thing I'll say on top of that is, is,
00:18:29
Speaker
is, is, and this, you know, sounds cliche, but it's just the reality is, you know, filling myself, you know, with, with the word, and making sure that there's, there is fellowship with the Spirit of God. and That's not always in a in a very formal way. Yes, I want to sit down and read the word, but I always want to be meditating and thinking, as you said earlier, um you know, be meditating on these things, what's good, what's helpful, making sure to pattern my mind after those things so that I could be transformed. Yeah, I think you made some ah excellent points. and And one of the thoughts that came to mind is, this is there's a passage
00:19:11
Speaker
And I think it's province chapter eight or seven, but I'll go with eight where Jesus says I am wisdom dwell as one, right? And the instant thing that I've always tried to do is I've always had this work in definition for wisdom. And for the longest I said wisdom is the ability to discern and the courage to choose what is good over what is evil.
00:19:33
Speaker
But i I sort of evolved that definition to wisdom is the ability to discern and the courage to choose what is beneficial over what is impulsive. And I think why I've changed good and evil to beneficial versus impulsive is because there are a lot of instances that we step into that are constantly on our mind of what is beneficial? What am I gonna gain from this? How am I gonna grow through this, right? And what is impulsive usually is dealing with reacting versus responding, right? And I wanna be more of a person that responds than reacts because reacts has to do with the first impulse of feelings that make me uncomfortable is where I might do something based on temporary feelings.
00:20:24
Speaker
And I can understand how that's destructive, not just for me, but for my psyche moving forward, that if I don't learn how to exercise self-control, I could put myself in a lot of situations, predicaments that I'll regret later, right? yeah And just maturity in itself is right, learning and knowing when to speak and knowing when to be quiet in order to deescalate situations, right? Keeping your mouth closed when you don't need to actually verbalize how you feel, right? Silence can never be misquoted, right?
00:20:59
Speaker
having the last say may feel good for a lot of people, but it's not mature, right? And in its true form, it's, it's childish, right? It's actually getting to a point where you're allowing someone else to conquer you. So my dad used to use this phrase a lot when you were kids. He used to say, don't let someone conquer you. And I used to say, well, what do you mean by that? Right? And he's saying, there are instance instances where people like to control, that create narratives and control narratives.
00:21:29
Speaker
And the minute you feed into it and you allow what it is that they're saying to get you to believe it and to accept that they got you. Right? it's It's sort of like what Paul says, right? No, I think it might be Peter. Don't give the devil a foothold to come through, right? And it's in these moments when they got you. Not only they got you, they got you feeling not just uncomfortable, but disconnected with using wisdom. And that's something that I've had to learn over the years, even just with dealing with people in general and talking with them, is that
00:22:06
Speaker
In order for me to be in control, I can't let them dictate the pace, right? I can't let them dictate the situation. Because the minute that I do is going on their terms. And I'm all out of position, right? And pretty much everything that I say now is not gonna be done with a well thought mindset. Instead, it's gonna be based on emotion.
00:22:33
Speaker
And I think the most important thing that we have to be in touch with, not just in how we handle people, but in how we deal with ourselves in a healthy way.
00:22:45
Speaker
is the passes that I mentioned about James, be quick to listen, so to speak, so to become angry, is realizing that everything that has done or said to you doesn't require a response. And if you're going to respond, it's essential that you communicate to the person that they heard, they understood, that you receive what it is they're saying. You may disagree, right? You may not be on the same page as them in terms of the conclusion they came with.
00:23:13
Speaker
But I think one of the number one things that people miss is that when you don't acknowledge people, just in general, it makes them feel unheard. And when it makes them feel unheard, then you're no longer having a dialogue that seeks to have a resolution. Instead, it's gonna be about why you haven't heard me.
00:23:40
Speaker
why this is why you should this is what you should accept and why because you haven't heard me, this is the reason why anything you say moving forward, I'm not going to accept.
00:23:52
Speaker
and it's And it's amazing to me how communication is either gets disconnected immediately, where they're no longer listening to find a solution, but they're tuning you out completely. yeah right and And I've realized that even when Jesus had his conversations with his disciples, even when Jesus had his conversations with the Pharisees,
00:24:17
Speaker
we get a text where they're trying to trap him, right? When they asked him about the coordinates with Caesar on it. And they say to him, and what is Jesus responses? He says, bring me a Daenerys, right? Because he not only had to hear them out, they were always looking for opportunities, right? The devil was looking for a foothold to come through so that they can proclaim that what Jesus said was trouble.
00:24:43
Speaker
to how the not only Pharisees lived their life in conjunction and somewhat in partnership where they were allowed to do certain things culturally right when they they practiced their religious practices and and some of it was was a mixture of other belief systems and what Rome did is they allowed them to do those sort of things and then ultimately it was make sure this is being done in the community make sure that is being done in the community and therefore by getting Jesus to
00:25:19
Speaker
you know, say something negative about Caesar was their opportunity to put him on the stage so that that he can be judged. But Jesus addressed it correctly, right? He said, let Caesar, let what Caesar's belong Caesar and let God what belong to God. So it's to me, I've learned just to study in Jesus that is it's about responding, not about reacting. Because the minute you react, everything's got you.
00:25:49
Speaker
and in terms of where they want you and and how they plan the manipulation moving forward. Absolutely. and And to piggyback on that, I think that's a great point you know in talking about wisdom.
00:26:02
Speaker
um you know in adding to you know, the definition first, I think it's just really good you expanded those categories between good and evil because I think wisdom is not always concerned with those categories in terms of sometimes wisdom ah protects us from things that may seem good, but it just might not be your good. And you you understand what I'm saying? So I was just talking to somebody about ah you know, these parallels that we find in Scripture that seem contradictory, right? You can read a proverb that says it's wise to save money, right? And but then you got the rich young ruler where Jesus says, give all of your possessions away, right?
00:26:45
Speaker
Is it contradictory, you know, um no is Jesus saying don't save money or is he saying he to save money? I think a sense of that is is what's best, you know for this individual, right? Like what is needed now and wisdom is not so much wisdom is concerned with not just can I but it's should I and that's where I think um the The gravity of wisdom is just like, yeah, there's things that I can do. But should I do those things? That's where wisdom comes in. Okay, I'm gonna think this through. And like you said, even when it comes to responding is, you know, you know, a lot of times we have conversations with people, especially when it's around matters of faith and stuff like that. I think sometimes we're so focused on responding that we're not thinking wisely at what I'm what I should be responding to.
00:27:34
Speaker
So, you know, we definitely got to kind of think through ah that and understand what to say, when to say it, ah kind of remind me of the past where Jesus says, Listen, don't worry about what to say in front of of those officers. I'm going to give you what you ought to say there, right? I'm going to help you to respond appropriately for the moment.
00:27:55
Speaker
um there. So it's always about trusting Jesus and trusting the wisdom that comes through, um you know, knowing Him. But yeah, I definitely think that, you know, it matters how we respond. um And I'll say this too, I think one of the things that, you know, I was thinking about when you were talking when you were saying that is,
00:28:18
Speaker
I think what helps us to us respond appropriately in these situations too is just understanding the ministry of presence, yeah um being focused and being present, being there. no matter No matter what was brought to Jesus, especially by his disciples, no matter how he felt about what they were bringing, he was always present. And he always answered with what they needed, even if it was something that seemed, um you know, forgive me for, you know, I don't know, just stupid, you know, if something that they said was just like, you know,
00:28:48
Speaker
yeah Okay, you know, Jesus never treated it that way. He always looked deeper. um He always was present with them and responded appropriately in wisdom, right? um And I think we need to exercise that. I think sometimes we're very quick, like you said, to talk and to say and to express um when sometimes what's needed the most is silence or ah what's needed the most is not your words of wisdom,
00:29:17
Speaker
um or I'm not I'm sorry not your words but words of wisdom that only comes by the spirit that gives it and so I think it's it it's you know it's a constant um submitting you know um and submitting to the presence and the will of god you know in every circumstance not making it over spiritual um but making sure that we're hearing god you know and that we're not just you know responding just to respond right that these things have meaning but But yeah, man, I think wisdom is the key and I think it's one of the things that I think we lack as Christians today. I think we lack in the body and and that's not, you know, I'm not throwing shade. I just think it's one thing that I think we overlook when it comes to Scripture. We definitely look at the principles that are in Scripture, but wisdom helps us to apply those principles, right? yeah The principles are true.
00:30:07
Speaker
But how do we how do we properly how do we properly apply those principles? And that's where wisdom comes in, right? yeah um That's how ah conversations are moving forward. That's how people are, as you said earlier, how people are um built up in that conversation and felt like they're being heard is when we're present, we're listening, but we're operating in the spirit of wisdom.
00:30:30
Speaker
Amen, amen, right? One of my favorite pastors in Proverbs is 12.1, right? Whoever loves discipline, loves knowledge, whoever hates correction is stupid, right? And I guess one of the reasons why I love that verse is because it's is's very clear, right? Correction is is is something we all need. And if there's anyone out there who doesn't believe they need correction, you probably should run from them, right?
00:30:54
Speaker
because they've probably gotten to a point where they feel like they arrived. And if you've a arrived, then why even dialogue? Why even care about what I have to say, right? If you think that there's no purpose in dialogue and about anything. So I think when it comes to just the communication element, is there so much to grasp when dealing with people? Because at the end of the day, especially culturally,
00:31:22
Speaker
You can think one thing, they can think another thing. It could be on two different opposites on the aisle, but we're never gonna get to a resolution. And that's why I've always been a promoter of conflict. I've always said conflict is necessary, or or the term that I use quite often is I would say that there's a need for confrontation.
00:31:47
Speaker
And the reason why I say confrontation is necessary is because in it, there there is no choice but a solution to be found in the midst of it. And if we're going around thinking that that's not required and that's not important, then I don't think either side has the objectivity to find a common ground between both sides. And I think that's the most important thing that I think we're overlooking. And I guess this has been sitting on my mind so often because one of the things that James talks about
00:32:25
Speaker
with just in general is let's not be hears the word best be doers of the word. Yes. Right. Is to merely look in the mirror and then totally forget what you look like is I think what some people often do. Right. Or what Jesus said in a parable about it going through one ear and out through the other or the devil taking it right from them. Right. Because they've lost the weirdo not just to hear it but also to apply it and i think that's just been a challenge in general as christians is applying what it is that we read and i think that's a challenge because
00:33:02
Speaker
We were facing hardships in the world that not only do they not respect Christ, they don't respect anything that he has to say, but the they're part of the antichrist, right? They reject the truth, even though it it's plainly expressed and shared. And yet the acknowledgement has been completely, people have been completely avoiding it. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about scripture in itself is that the element of accountability is so powerful, right? because If the scripture is not holding you accountable, then what good is it, right? It has to hold you accountable because it's the word itself that is, you know, sharper than any double-edged sword that has the ability to penetrate even the heart, bone and marrow of a person, right?
00:33:49
Speaker
So in in the end of itself, I think that's why people just avoid it altogether, right? And even in that, there's there's no defense to that, at least and in Christ's eyes of avoiding things that are true, because you'll be judged for the very things that you deem to be right in your own eyes, right? Even if you're a law for yourself, you're still gonna be judged at the end of day of that as well. So that's just something that I've been i've been meditating on and and thinking about is just,
00:34:19
Speaker
continuously being very cautious in how I communicate with people because you go a long way we're figuring out that that communication as long as it's there and it's active, you find yourself solving a lot more.
00:34:34
Speaker
then immediately shutting people down making sure they don't feel heard and giving them bad experiences because they just take that bad experience they having and carry it over to the next situation that they're in but at least if you're gonna stop and and dialogue with certain people it's probably pivotal that they know what the truth is. And eventually the hope is after discovering and visualizing, experiencing what truth looks like, they at least have something to go off of as a verse to never experiencing, never coming across it. And it never encouraged them or motivating them to change.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's real good. You know, that that's good, especially when we think of what context these conversations happen, you know, in and you know, the the foundation to me is relationship and I understand that may vary with who you know, we're dealing with but um you know, when just to kind of give you an example out of my own life, like, you know, when me and my wife first got married, we've been married 25 years.
00:35:38
Speaker
But when we first got married, you know, we had a hard time, as most people do, you know, two people trying to get to know one another, you let somebody else in your life. And, but one of the things that changed, you know, for us was, you know, when we realized that there was nothing that was going to change our relationship status with one another.
00:36:03
Speaker
And so it allowed conflict to happen without yeah the the egos, the anger, e the yeah, it's like you said, we were able to have conflict, but we we were able to have it in a healthy way. And that was based on us knowing that the relationship um was there. And I think sometimes again, you know, we can misunderstand And even, you know, you know, avoid conflict. And the reason why we do those things at times is because, you know, there's not enough of a relationship there in order for for conflict to happen. Now understand that this can't be in all cases.
00:36:41
Speaker
But I think if we spend time maturing relationships that can handle hardship, um that can handle conflict, then those things are actually seen as opportunities to practice our faith rather than opportunities to separate us from one another and and to harm our faith. It's no different from ah sanctification is In a sense, sanctification frees us to be sanctified. we don't We no longer have to worry about the presence of God being taken from us. We're now free to be sanctified and free to be open and honest and to walk in the newness that we've gotten from Christ. So I'm not worried about the relationship. um I'm free. And so when there is chastisement from God, or if there is,
00:37:32
Speaker
rebuke or anything like that, um my heart turns towards him. Why? Because the relationship, it allows for conflict, the relationship allows for for those things to happen. So it almost frees us to be able to lock and be in step and have a real relationship because there's, as you said, I think at the beginning of this,
00:37:51
Speaker
at your beginning of your podcast. And then it's just one of my favorite texts as well in Romans where he says there's nothing that could separate us from the love of God, right? There's once we get that, then everything else falls into place. Then I know that, listen, um I don't have to perform. I can I can be right. Same thing with human relationships. It's once the relationship is ah is solidified,
00:38:13
Speaker
and and we're together and we have an understanding, then that conflict becomes a ah way to practice ah becoming more Christ-like for you as an individual, but if it's two Christians together, for them together.
00:38:29
Speaker
but even if it's not that allows that person to even actually see but you know some things that they wouldn't ordinarily see based on the transformation that you've had you know with Jesus and so the bedrock of of all of this to me has to do with you know you know relationship and yeah a lot of times I think the conflict and the the the The tension usually comes because there's no relationship that's established in order for that conflict to be able to be healthy. um it's it's It's taken personally, you know what I mean? And so, um but yeah, you know you know, and that's another thing, you know. the the lord
00:39:10
Speaker
You know, that's what life is teaching me now. Same thing with you is just, you know, man, I'm loved. I am fully forgiven. I'm fully known and fully loved by God.
00:39:21
Speaker
yeah I don't have to... Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. I don't have to be fearful of of not coming clean, or I don't have to be fearful of God's gracious hand chastening. I don't have to be fearful of of a ah tough conversation with you. You know what I mean? me you know Like, man, I need to talk to you about something. I ain't gotta be fearful of that, right? Because the foundation of our relationship is Christ.
00:39:45
Speaker
the foundation of my relationship is Christ. I'm free to be to be sanctified. I'm free to be made whole um you know in the image of God. yeah everything you brought up is that you hit the nail right in the coffin because I think more or less and and this could definitely be a future conversation. There's something I've always talked about. I may not be or may not have a relationship at the moment, but I do know what a healthy interaction or the characteristics of a healthy interaction looks like because when I when I think of what Paul illustrates profoundly and I think, well,
00:40:25
Speaker
is the definition of love. and And when he goes on the list, right, love is patient, love is kind, it's not envious, not boast, it's not proud, it isn't easily angered, it doesn't keep records of wrongs, right, that he gives this whole list. And I think it's something that we also ascribe to pursuit. I'm i'm pretty sure a lot of us Unfortunately, as believers do have a habit of not giving grace in those areas, but it does give us a standard of something that's supposed to reflect, you know, what is told to us in Galatians five about the fruits of the spirit, right? And it's also evidence of the Holy Spirit, right? that If a person is operating in these ways,
00:41:10
Speaker
it's it's It's almost prevalent like, hey, there's no way you could be Holy Spirit filled. And these things aren't convicting you on a regular basis, especially with dealing with loved ones and people that you don't know.
00:41:24
Speaker
because at the end of the day, that's what reflects what the Holy Spirit does. It's to be constantly convicting you. It's an expectation in how we ought to live and how we ought to represent Christ as ambassadors, as representatives of him. And if you find it that someone isn't or you aren't, obviously you're falling short, which is why we're told to not only check ourselves or test ourselves to see what is that with the Spirit,
00:41:50
Speaker
but it also tells you the work that you have to do, right? Because even though I'm pretty sure we all for sure in those categories, not in every scenario, we have practice in them.
00:42:01
Speaker
but it shows you how imperfect you are and how reliant you are on Christ, right? With the constant repentance element of it and the constant striving to be like Him, right? And I think as long as we have those as pivotal markers as a standard, right? Then I think there's more work to be done, right? There isn't a point of arrival ever.
00:42:28
Speaker
And there's also grace that comes along with that, especially when you're not doing one work on it and somebody else's and never for a second think that because you're better at something that that gives you cause to then vindick somebody else who hasn't gotten there yet. Yeah, absolutely. And the foundation, you know, of all of that is is also just the image of God in man. and and i And I think at at the very foundation, and this is where sometimes our theology, like you said, is b you and I can go forever. You always sparkle my mind to think about something so good. But yeah but yeah the you know the image of God, um you know I just think sometimes with with our theology, we understand it properly, but we don't properly we don't properly apply it, right? When we think about the image of God, it should humble us that man is made in the image
00:43:23
Speaker
of God, right, that that we bear the image of creation fallen or not. Okay, it's, you know, whether you're redeemed or not. there's still the image of God that's there. It may be a defaced image, right? But it's the image of God. And if we don't approach people that way, then there's something wrong with your understanding of grace. There's something wrong with your understanding of what God has afforded you, right? And so, and so, so even like you said, even if we don't have the relationship, we don't have the understanding, we still got categories by which we conduct these conversations in.
00:43:56
Speaker
that fall outside of just me knowing you. If I approach the conversation in the sense of that I am dealing with an image bearer of God and I understand, you know, ah those particular things, then it also helps to shape that conversation. But then here's the other part, too. It also allows it it also humbles us enough to be able to learn from it.
00:44:19
Speaker
and not see ourselves as just the one giving, but that we are the one receiving. And so so we learn in those conversations, right? We learn in those interactions. um And so we're not always giving, but that's what is what you said. When we talk about all of the fruit of the spirit, and we talk about what what Paul says love is, and we see that we are not there yet, that those things have been given to us or lavished upon us and we have yet to respond perfectly to it, it should have have us walk in humility, that we should not be judging in that conversation, that we should be lovingly approaching it. One, because the foundation of creation, they're an image bearer. And then two, we all understand what relation what relational conversation looks like when we're dealing with ah image bearers or people who are made in the image of God. And it allows for humility in a conversation that actually happened.
00:45:14
Speaker
rather than a fruitless dialogue that that hits the head but never penetrates the heart. Amen, yes, yes. All of them, does everyone deserves dignity and respect, and we should never lose sight of that. Because like you said, if you if you think for some reason that that's that we're now all created equal, where God breathed life into us, understanding that, and there's levels to our growth and where we want to be, but where we aren't yet,
00:45:42
Speaker
then I don't know where you are, right? So as you said, right, we can go on forever. I do know you have to go. So man, I appreciate you hopping on and having this conversation with me and and wrestling with this idea of making sure that when it comes to our communication with people who have a tremendous amount of different issues and problems that they're dealing with you yourself included it's it's important that we be empathetic not sympathetic take consideration the history of their experiences learning who they are potentially at this time and being able to respond accordingly so that they don't feel that they're not heard and that they don't feel that their issues and problems don't resonate potentially at any point with yourself or someone that you know who's dealing with something similar like
00:46:34
Speaker
Instead, we are images of Christ, image image barriers of Christ, deserving of dignity and respect. And with that, we also have to learn that love is to give at the expense of oneself to benefit the one who is to receive it, right? Just like in Christ, God gave his son Christ to us so that we can benefit from that. And we're still benefiting that. And there's equal opportunity for those who are out there that will still have access to it.
00:47:01
Speaker
And with that being said, if you don't mind, Ali, could you close out and pray for us? Yeah, most definitely. Let's pray. Yeah, Father, we just say thank you. Thank you that you give good gifts to your children. And we thank you for the gift that you've given us in this time. um Thank you for my brother's words, Lord, and what you've been teaching him through him, what you've been teaching me.
00:47:24
Speaker
I pray, Lord, that You will grant us Your wisdom to be able to um you know live these things out, to apply these things appropriately in our own lives, but also in the lives that we in our in our life and the relationships that we have with others.
00:47:40
Speaker
And so, God, I just say thank you for all that you have done. Lord, please, we ask, Lord, that you bless this conversation. We bless those who are hearing this conversation, that you, Lord, produce fruit, Holy Spirit, as only you know how. And, Lord, we just pray, Lord, that you would grow us, keep us ah close to you. And, Lord, we thank you for your heavy hand at times, but we also thank you for the grace that you just don't want us daily, that your scripture says that your mercies are new every morning. And so, Lord, we thank you. But, Lord, we close out this time.
00:48:11
Speaker
Keep us in your presence. We love you dearly and we pray all these things in our wonderful name. Amen. amen