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Mastering Change, Embracing Possibilities & Becoming Your Own Evangelist with Voke Elstein
441 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Bukola had a lovely conversation with Voke Elstein. Voke is an academic and industry trail blazer. She has previously worked at Twitter, Walmart, Exxon Mobil, Schlumberger and Proctor and Gamble. In addition, she had her undergraduate studies at the University of Ibadan, Masters Degree at Stanford University and MBA at UC Berkeley.
She talks about the importance of being your own evangelist and how to embrace new terrains successfully. She also talks about the power of Generative AI like Chat GPT and how to leverage it.
Voke shares two of her Generative AI products. One product is a guide to immigrating to the United States and the other is a Thesaurus. You should check them out.
Voke is an undoubted icon 🌟
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Transcript
The Value of Ambitious Goals
00:00:05
Speaker
establish your finish line let it be as aspirational as crazy as out of the box as you want that's what you want to do then kudos to you nobody sees a new hire as a hiring mistake right so no they've hired you they really wanted to hire you nobody makes a charity hire but i look back like if i didn't take that step back i would not have taken the multiple steps forward that i eventually took
Meet Vokeh El-Stien
00:00:33
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I hope you're doing very well today. It always is a pleasure to come every week with a new episode for you on the group podcast. And we're doing this because we want you to learn from the stories of people who have gotten ahead on their journey.
00:00:49
Speaker
From first-hand experience, I know how stories have shaped me. I know how stories of people who have been inspired by has just given me that boost and encouragement that I need to go on my journey feeling like Superwoman. And I'm sure today's episode will do something for you. So today I interviewed Vokeh El-Stien. Vokeh is someone that I happened to have by luck stumbled on a page on LinkedIn
00:01:17
Speaker
and I just always wanted to reach out to her to hear about
00:01:20
Speaker
the story behind the story that I was seeing on LinkedIn. And I finally summoned the courage to reach out to her.
Vokeh's Educational and Professional Journey
00:01:27
Speaker
She was happy to speak and share a story on the podcast. Vokeh has led teams in the tech industry. She's worked in several companies, including ExxonMobil, Walmart, Procter & Gamble, and Twitter. She's also done an MBA at UC Berkeley and a master's degree at Stanford.
00:01:49
Speaker
She had an undergraduate degree at the University of Ibadon. So you see, she has a rich story that is relatable and connectable. She had an undergraduate in Nigeria and has gone on to transcend and make impact on a global scale.
Generative AI's Potential
00:02:04
Speaker
Beyond talking about her journey, we also discussed the power of generative AI and the possibility that he has in revolutionizing industries.
00:02:13
Speaker
and helping us to be a lot more productive. Vokey shares it all. This is a story that you want to listen to. And I'm so honored to have her on the podcast. So sit back and let's dive in. All right. The Growth Podcast is a space where we share the real stories behind the stories. We take you behind the scenes of the success stories we read and see online. We lift the wheel.
00:02:41
Speaker
and ask the questions that no one else is asking. To expand your mind and break the limits that society, and quite frankly, yourself, have placed in it. And all these is to get you to realize that your version of success is attainable for you, which is attainable for you too. Hi, Vaquet. I hope you're doing very well. It really, honestly, is a pleasure to finally get to speak with you. I remember that I stumbled on your page on LinkedIn.
00:03:10
Speaker
And I was just being introduced to the NBA world. And then my friend was like, oh, you need to start looking at people who have gone to the schools that you have on your list for NBA. And UC Berkeley was one of the schools that I had on my list for the U.S. And so I went on Google and I just wrote, oh, UC Berkeley, Nigeria, and like all of those
00:03:36
Speaker
keywords that would help me to find Nigerians who have gone to UC Berkeley. And your name popped up. And so I clicked on your page. And I was like, oh, not only did she go to UC Berkeley, she's also done a master's in Stanford. And she actually studied at the University of Ibadu as well. Yeah, it was just blowing my mind. And I'm glad I reached out to you to do this, because when you responded to me, I was so elated. I was like, oh, yes, we can respond.
00:04:11
Speaker
That's amazing. Oh, yeah, I think I would say that I've just been fortunate people say, Oh, you have to also talk about the hard work that it took to get there. But I would also highlight the lock I've had when it come to really get into dream schools for me and then getting out of the programs what I intended to get out of it. Yeah, so
00:04:35
Speaker
That is really exciting. Yes. Yes. And that's all we want to hear a lot of that in the podcast episode today. So we'd like you to share everything from the work that you've put into lock that you've mentioned as well. But before we go into the meat of the conversation, I would like to know how as your week. Okay. Actually, we just started the week. So how was your weekend? Things going on on your hand. How have you been?
Vokeh's Academic Growth and Life Lessons
00:04:59
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I had a great weekend. I'm actually out here in California. I tell people down the street from Google because they are literally down the street from me. So we have great weather. It's just starting to heat up. So it's been pretty good. Yeah. That's very good. Honestly, I've never been to the States. And I think the only place that I see on the media is L.A., right?
00:05:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're watching songs that I'm like, oh, I need to I need to be in LA. LA is in California, I just to be honest, but I think it's Oh, yes, it is. Southern California. I'm in the north. But yeah, LA is a fun area. I've been how many times now twice. And I should plan another trip out there since he's literally in the same state as me. But there's just so many great places out there. Yeah.
00:05:53
Speaker
one day, one day our outcomes will get to meet. Yes, I would love that. Yes, perfect. I'd like to start really with your childhood, right? Because I believe that there is usually a major and big connection
00:06:11
Speaker
between the person that you have now versus the experiences, the exposure that you had as a child. So when you were growing up, what were the key moments or experiences that shaped you in terms of, you know, even shaping you to the point where you decided to study engineering and university, to your masters and also like your MBA at UC Berkeley? Oh, yeah.
00:06:37
Speaker
I think I'll just mention a lot of people, they have figures of people that really led to who they are today. And for me, it's my mom, like her unwavering like investment in her children. There's five of us in our education and in just our success. Right. So I started off in a public.
00:06:58
Speaker
primary school we called him and that school was it was a nice school but it wasn't the school looking back now that would have allowed me to really explore everything I needed to explore as a curious child that I was and as the learner that I wanted to be and my mom saw that pretty early and transferred her children to
00:07:19
Speaker
private school and that was where all of us just flourished and thrived and I tell people like a lot of people don't know this they look at me now and say oh look at all she's done but when I got to that private school they were like we can't put her in the grade you want she's going to have to go to a lower grade because
00:07:36
Speaker
you know, she's not exactly up to par. And for me, that was very painful. I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to tell people I'm no longer in, you know, the grade that I should have been. I think I was supposed to go to primary four at that time, but I ended up going back one grade to primary three.
00:07:54
Speaker
And it was one of the best decisions that she made for me at the time, even though I didn't understand it. Like just one year late, I'm primary three. I was doing so well. I don't even think I finished the full school year in primary three. They took me to four. And then when I was in primary four, they told my mom that I was doing so great. I didn't have to do primary five. And so I skipped five and I went to six, you know?
00:08:17
Speaker
But I look back like if I didn't take that step back, I would not have taken the multiple steps forward that I eventually took. So it was the right decision. And in that school, I think everything in my brain or my mind just flourished. Like my math was out there.
00:08:33
Speaker
reading, grammar, I just loved everything that I was doing. And I think that's where I even started to learn to play musical instruments, which I think is a great way of release and relaxation. So I tell people like even if you don't play well, you know, just grab an instrument and get into it because it definitely is one way for you to relax because the world is stressful. So that was my
00:08:58
Speaker
primary education, and then I went to high school. My high school again was a very good one. It's still out there in Benin. It's Presentation National High School. I loved it there. It was a small one, a Catholic high school, and it was a boarding school. As you know, all of us in Nigeria would like to go to boarding schools.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I meet people here and when I tell them I went to a boarding school, they're like sad for me like, oh no, what happened? And I'm like, no, my parents didn't send me to a boarding school. They would have had a very disgruntled daughter on their hands, you know.
University Challenges and Triumphs
00:09:33
Speaker
We all wanted to go out there. So yes, I enjoyed my six years in Benin. I actually played a lot of sports while out there. And I know you always
00:09:44
Speaker
highlight failures and jumps. So I'll highlight something again from my high school experience. So I had a friend that I, she was my very close friend and I used to shadow her. She was the high jumper for my team, you know, into house sports. And just before the competition, she got injured and they were like, oh no, what to do now? Who should we put in? And they're like, Vicky, you're always next to her when she jumps. Can you try? And I'm like, okay, I could try.
00:10:15
Speaker
And then I tried. And it wasn't bad. And they were like, you are in. And that's how I became a high jumper. And that year, that was the first year that my house, like we call them Blue House, and it was called Regina Mundi, was the first year that we actually won in high jump because
00:10:40
Speaker
I would put some hard work there, but I would say it was majorly lock your girl, jump the highest at the end of the day. So that made me a strong contender and actually made me surpass my friend. And I was now the lead high jumper for the house, but I'll just tell people like,
00:10:59
Speaker
You'll be in many situations like that, right? You're shadowing somebody, you're always there for a friend. It might seem like you are not learning something, but you're learning something. So when the time comes for you to step up, I'll say definitely step up. I'm not saying this to say you stop your friend, steal the opposition. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when the time comes to step up, like, if you could want to do.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, so high school was fun. I gravitated easily to the sciences for the mathematics. I don't even know if they still call that the subject these days. I think it's... Okay, another of the things that I enjoyed in school, I was very poor at art, so I'll put that out there.
00:11:45
Speaker
But I still survived. And I think the only thing I look back to high school I wish I did was French, because I think somewhere in the middle there, French became optional. And then I decided to opt out of it because it was getting difficult for me. But I look back now, I look at this world where being bilingual or trilingual is definitely an advantage.
00:12:08
Speaker
And the second or third language, it's always better if it's spoken by more people, you know, as a Nigerian, I have a second language from Nigeria, given that we all have a second language besides English. But I look back and wish I had French, you know, in my portfolio now, because the world would be, in a sense, easier to navigate.
Career Beginnings and Transitions
00:12:30
Speaker
That was also something that I possessed. So yeah, that was high school.
00:12:36
Speaker
And then for college, as we call it here, university, as we call it back home, I actually had, should I say a year or two where I was not in college because
00:12:47
Speaker
I'd applied, where did I apply first? Maybe I applied to University of Benin and I didn't get in that first year. And then I applied to University of Ibadan and I didn't also get in that year. So instead of taking the JAM exam the other year, I think I waited. And then at the end of the day, I was kind of like out of school for some time.
00:13:12
Speaker
So I think that was the year and some change, but somebody actually knew about the A level exam and then told me that the year that I had lost the way to get it back was by taking the A level exam because then you do direct entry and you get into 200 levels. So it wouldn't seem like you lost the year per se.
00:13:31
Speaker
So that's what I did. And I look back and it was actually a relaxed hundred level for me, I would say, because you think about the first year of university is definitely feeling like a fish out of water, trying to understand your independence and all of that.
00:13:50
Speaker
I think for me, because the A level, I still had to live by myself. You know, it wasn't a dorm really situation or living with parents. But one of the first things I think back to is I used to tell myself like the whole chicken was now for me, you know, I could eat as much as I want. But it was it was a good one. It was a good one going through that process. And then I actually in that process had two places I could go.
00:14:19
Speaker
IFEA, so University of IFEA above me at Wallowa University, and then University of Ibaden. So I was at IFEA for a short while and ultimately decided to go back to UI because I just loved the integration of the university and the city better than I had found at IFEA.
00:14:40
Speaker
So at UI, it was just really doubling down on, okay, let me study, let me get successful here. And I have a friend that I met at UI. He actually sought me out because we were both Delta State students together, Robo students. And he's like, Voki, just let me know if you need anything to be successful here. I was in the mechanical engineering department. There was three of us females, so not really many people, right?
00:15:09
Speaker
It definitely was a good, might call it now, it was a good time to be out there to have somebody that was looking out for me and helping me make sure I was successful there. And I think the first time, you know, I don't know if they still do this, but they post your matriculation number and your grades out there.
00:15:33
Speaker
And you can't even know anyone's metric number or you know your own. You got to look at your grades. Sometimes you smile. Sometimes you hide. He came back one time and he's like, okay, the grades are up. And I'm like, yay. Let me go see how I did. He's like, you did so well. I don't know. And he's like, yeah, you're on track to get a first class. And I remember just jumping off my bed, you know, like running out there to go see on the board. And I'm like, wow, this is actually possible.
00:16:01
Speaker
And yeah, that's all I just did from then on. I put in the work and I graduated with a first class. My dad and my mom came to my graduation, what do we call it, TV convocation? I don't even know the difference again. I'm a young lady, so don't let me age myself. And so yes, I think
00:16:22
Speaker
And the good thing was because I was graduating to first class, my parents were able to go into the hall that the event was being held in instead of sitting outside. And I think that really made my mom and my dad proud. And then for some reason, they led them all the way to the front. So they suddenly get a handshake from the vice chancellor, which was, it was just a crowning moment. Like since then for UC Berkeley,
00:16:49
Speaker
I'm like, I don't need to attend convocation. I'm like, oh, graduation or commencement as a colleague here. I'm like, I've done this. And I've done it the way I wanted to do it. My parents did it in front, getting all the glory and all of that from their investments in me to see me be successful. So that was UI. So I'll pause. I know I've been talking a lot and see if you want me to keep going. You have a question. Yes.
00:17:20
Speaker
I was laughing at so many points. One thing that struck was you play the instrument. So what instrument do you play? Oh yeah. So I like to play the recorder and then to an extent I could play the piano. I play mostly for memory. I can't really read sheet music like that. So if I memorize it prior to playing, then I could play. So yeah, the
00:17:43
Speaker
recorder and piano. I think I really need to go back to playing the instrument because also when I was in high school, yeah it was when I was in high school, actually primary school, when I was in primary school I learnt the recorder and then I was so good and then I started learning the clarinet. Oh that's good. But I don't know, like I just stopped doing it, I don't know why, I think I need to go back to learning the instruments. I agreed, agreed.
00:18:11
Speaker
I remember just going to see my mentor in London and a son was playing the piano and I was like, oh my God, I can actually do this too.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Like you shared a very fantastic story. Like I liked how you just went back from, you know, you were in a public university and because public primary school rather, and because you had a lot more potential and in a monitoring environment, you would be able to thrive. She took you to a private school. And I think
00:18:49
Speaker
month, or the last month, plus this month, because we've just started the month. Yeah, it seemed for me as being how our parents and how people around us can influence us positively. I really want how like the power and the strength of a mother can help in ensuring that our kids fly. And even the last episode that I had, like the guest was just talking about her mom helped
00:19:14
Speaker
So like you mentioning that as well just certifies how much just having that nurturing environment, having people who believe in you, people can see you and help you to propel, can advance you in your career and in the person that you even become. So thank
Adapting and Thriving in New Roles
00:19:30
Speaker
you for highlighting that. One thing that you mentioned was
00:19:35
Speaker
you know, by time you had completed high school, you stayed at home for two years. You know, when you're on people's LinkedIn profiles, you never really see those things. But when you have stories, you'd see that, oh, it's actually never really linear, like there might be some obstacles on the way, it's really how you navigate it, and you're just sharing that.
00:19:57
Speaker
It's so good. I really love that. Thank you so much. Oh, you're most welcome. Yeah. So I think moving on to the next thing is in terms of the things that you've done career-wise, you've worked in several companies. And not just that, you've done several things over time. You've been in the engineering space, finance, marketing, strategy and operations. And it's just mind blowing to see how you've
00:20:25
Speaker
navigated different companies, even different industries, because you started engineering industry, and then you're in tech. So how really have you been able to navigate these industries? And, you know, the combination of these experiences, have they contributed to your success? Oh, yeah, thank you for that. I think one big thing I would say that has helped me move through various functions and industries is just
00:21:01
Speaker
I didn't even know, maybe early on, this wasn't something that I had crystallized into something, but I definitely know that for me, it's not a race against some other person out there or what others are doing, it's just a race against myself. Like, how can I be a better version of myself? How can I do things better? And then what am I passionate about and what's interesting to me?
00:21:20
Speaker
thinking about how to be the better version of myself.
00:21:26
Speaker
all of the roles that I've had, they've had a flavor of that. I actually started out in supply chain and operations with Procter & Gamble. And that role, one of my neighbors back in university was working at Procter & Gamble. They were recruiting, and then he helped me submit my resume. I took the test. I used to have this test that was so scary. I don't know if they still do that test even in Nigeria.
00:21:54
Speaker
you have like a lot of people in a big room you are shaded furiously waiting the good thing was you you really got the results i think maybe it was one day or the turnaround time was pretty good so you know if you passed or failed and then you bring in an interview then from then on you get hired or not i remember there were three of us that were hired together
00:22:14
Speaker
only one of us is still back there now and he's actually here in the States still working for Procter & Gamble. He's risen through the ranks, a very great dude, solid dude, but that experience was a very good one for me because it was my opening into how international
00:22:35
Speaker
businesses or international companies function, and then really stretching my result to always operate in an environment of integrity. And then I'll say the thing that Procter & Gamble taught me, because one thing you hear right now, given the environment that we are in, some people have imposter syndrome, right? And it's
00:23:01
Speaker
I would call it a direct result of the environment in which we work, not the individual experiences that someone brings to their work. That's the way I view it anyways.
00:23:13
Speaker
And Procter & Gamble really make that not a thing for me because the plant manager, everybody, all of the execs were on the same floor as me. I could see them. I could challenge their ideas. They could challenge me. I actually had an area that I owned and that was my responsibility.
Reflecting on Personal and Professional Growth
00:23:31
Speaker
So having that for my first job, and I also had direct reports. So this was my first job. I was a people manager that really, should I say,
00:23:41
Speaker
define my career in a different way than a lot of people's careers because there was fresh out of undergrad, having all this responsibility, having a departmental budget, having people reporting to me and having the autonomy to challenge the plant manager. So it was a good one for sure. And then I liked that role a lot. And then I started to think about going into project and going into the oil industry. As you know, in
Exploring AI Projects
00:24:08
Speaker
Nigeria, the big
00:24:11
Speaker
I don't want to say the big girls. Yes, I would say big boys, the big girls in the oil industry. Yeah. So I wanted to go join them, go and that kind of fat checks. I was like, I need to figure out how to still continue in the oil industry. And I think at the time too, you still have like, if you don't get in,
00:24:32
Speaker
at the entry level like when you're graduating like getting in subsequently is harder so I knew okay I had to go figure out another way to get in so I said okay let me go do master's so I could get into like a master's track so that's why I came here to the states to get a master's in energy resources engineering which was just a fancy way for saying petroleum engineering here so I did that but that like everyone else
00:24:59
Speaker
I was like maybe I don't want to go back so stay here and then work in the oil industry but when I was working in the oil industry I actually got an offer from my MBA I had applied and it came fully funded you know like people tell you oh it's impossible to get an MBA that's fully funded you have to pay for it and I was ready to pay right like okay I'm going to be in debt but this is going to be
00:25:24
Speaker
a good thing that I would have from it so when it came fully funded I was like this is a no-brainer I don't think they're going to hold their money at my spot and say go do you come back whenever so I decided to go for the MBA then and
Lifelong Learning and Personal Interests
00:25:39
Speaker
even though I got offers from other industries I was still a one-track mind into the oil industry because I'm like oil or bust so
00:25:47
Speaker
I joined ExxonMobil. And then while I was there, I started to think about other things that I could do. And my parent, my stepmom still runs a grocery store in Nigeria. So I had worked in that store over time. And I realized that retail was something that I was good at. So I joined Walmart stores. And while at Walmart, I joined the Walmart e-commerce. So people always ask me, like, how do you make the transition into tech?
00:26:16
Speaker
And it was true, Walmart, right? So, and it was an internal transition. And those transitions, if I look back, I would say they're actually easier to make because it was within the same company. I had already been tried and tested. They knew me and I already made some friends on the other end. So it was an easy transition. That is not to say that people cannot transition to tech from other degrees or other industries. No, I think what I'm getting at here is relationships.
00:26:45
Speaker
and obviously your experience is the right way to transition to tech because there are so many industries that we work in that I call tech adjacent or even skills that we learn that would help us be successful when we transition into roles in tech. So I feel like it's
00:27:07
Speaker
is good for us as we work to think about how can we utilize the skills that we currently possess or that we are currently gaining to transition into the next level, the next career. And if it's tech, that's great. Although tech is having a very hard and rough time right now. So I'll tell people like if you're trying to make that transition now and it's super hard,
Cultural Adaptation and Lifestyle
00:27:30
Speaker
it's not you, right? It's just tech rather is having a huge meltdown. I think things will get better
00:27:36
Speaker
perhaps towards the end of the year from my own crystal ball here, I don't know, but I think towards the end of the year or early next year things will change and people will see whatever efforts they are making right now, whatever new learnings, new relationships they are building, like really start to yield fruit to at that time. Yeah, so I'll pause again.
00:28:01
Speaker
And from what you've explained, I can tell that you would definitely have had to build several skills to be able to manage all of these transitions. So you've transitioned in terms of career, you've also transitioned in terms of even moving from Nigeria to
00:28:20
Speaker
the United States. So what are some practical tips that you can share that can help people really embrace change and be flexible and adaptable to industries or even environments? Oh, yeah.
00:28:35
Speaker
For me, one that I'll say is definitely remember that if things are new to you, you need help navigating them, right? So when I got here to the States, now to Stanford, this is a great school. They give you so many resources to help you acclimatize pretty easily. They have what they call a host family. So that's a local family that's affiliated to the university.
00:29:01
Speaker
that would help you figure out where to live, what to do, and how to be successful in a society. Even how to get a phone is not an easy thing, right? Yeah, they'll guide you through that process. I think now it's easier, but then it used to be way harder.
00:29:18
Speaker
that was something. They also give you like
Episode Closing
00:29:20
Speaker
a student from your department, you know, that would help you also figure out what it is to live here, how to use the resources the university provides, how to do your research if you come here for like a master's program or PhD or you have a research component to your degree. All of those things, I feel like they're things that everyone needs help
00:29:43
Speaker
With especially if you started a new job, right? I know a lot of companies Also have a body system. So someone coming in new would have another employee that will be helping to guide them I think I would tell people like instead of thinking of that person as somebody to rate you so you don't want to have asked a silly question I think it's easier and better for both of you if you really make that relationship one of trust super early so you can actually
00:30:11
Speaker
ask the right questions and not think, oh, is this a silly question? Will they think, oh, they shouldn't have hired me? Will they think I'm not the right person for the role? If I ask this, no, they've hired you. So, and I think everyone actually looks back, companies, hiring managers, recruiters, nobody sees a new hire as a hiring mistake, right? So, no, they've hired you. They really wanted to hire you. Nobody makes a charity hire.
00:30:34
Speaker
So they really wanted you to be there. And now that you're there, it is in your interest and their interest to accelerate your getting settled in that environment as fast as you can. So my advice is lean on people, lean on the official mentor, lean on people that you have a relationship or tangential association with. Just make sure that you're asking questions and you're making sure that the things that matter to you, the things that are important.
00:31:03
Speaker
you're having them resolved as soon as possible. So that's one thing that I'll say I did throughout my career. I always make friends everywhere I go. I ask people questions to help myself be successful. If I'm in doubt, if I'm struggling with something, I always have somebody that I trust to resolve that with. Sometimes it would even be my siblings, right? Because I do have four siblings, so it could be them. So I would say not just even at work, lean on your family,
00:31:31
Speaker
lean on your close friends. Just make sure that when you get in a place, know that you are not the expert and you will be the expert one day. But the first time you arrive, you are not the expert. Don't think you can do this on your own. Make sure you utilize every resource available to you. And even if you need a resource that's not been given to you, the company perhaps even has it somewhere. So make sure you ask. So asking questions and then
00:31:58
Speaker
making sure that I'm utilizing my network was personal and provided by whatever institution or company that I'm in is the way that I've been able to navigate different scenarios or situations that I've been putting. And if I think back to how I moved from being, so sometimes, like I told you, I started as a people manager and then I went to an individual contributor and then throughout my career, I just be like,
00:32:24
Speaker
People manager individual contributor and each time I would say One of the greatest advice that I got was from my very first manager and he told me he's like you are the company to your direct reports If they like you they like this company if they don't like you they don't like this company I want them to like the company now go, you know, so
00:32:44
Speaker
I definitely realized that, okay, it's not a trivial thing, right? I see sometimes people think like, oh, I mean, people manager, that means the one to tell people what to do. No, it's a lot of responsibility. It's for you to think about how to nurture others' careers.
00:33:02
Speaker
how to provide them with the resources to be successful, and how to make sure that they look at your company or your business or whatever leadership position you're in, that organization, as a place that they want to stay with and grow in. So it's a lot of responsibility. So I just want to put out there that a manager is not the one telling people what to do, is the one making sure everybody likes the place that they are in. Yeah. Preach, honestly, like I always tell my friends,
00:33:31
Speaker
that your company is your manager and it's the experiences that you have with them on the day-to-day that forms your perception of what the company is. That's why you can find two people in an organization, the same company, but they have different experiences. They see the company in different ways. Exactly. If you're in that position of authority to manage someone, you're actually as delicate as you can
00:33:57
Speaker
And you ensure that you're nurturing that relationship. You're giving as much as you can give. I'm not seeing yourself as a god. There are just others people around because people actually take this thing in and that's where they decide whether or not they want to continue with the organization. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Now, speaking about organizations and companies.
00:34:19
Speaker
And you've also mentioned that you've been in people management roles, of course, like you've been promoted in the companies that you've been in previously. So how, say, for someone that is just starting out in their career, what are the things that they can be doing internally within their organization, and maybe externally as well, that can help them advance in their careers?
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the things right is to make sure that you get satisfaction from the work that you are doing. And there is I think is the YA combinator president and he has something that he said in 2021 that I tell people when I meet them and in a coaching type of relationship is at every job, you know, he said you should be learning or earning and
00:35:11
Speaker
If you're doing one, that's fine. If you're doing the two, that's the best. If neither is happening, then you should quit that job. So that's what I tell people. It's clear. You're either learning something new or you're making money that makes you happy. Because sometimes you're making money, but that money makes you sad because it's not a lot of money, right? So I tell people, if you are on one side of the fence, based off of what Gary said, then you're good.
00:35:37
Speaker
If you have the two, you're golden, that's a job you want to stay at for a while. But if you're not learning anything new, and that happens sometimes after you've been at a job for a while, and your salary is not making you happy below market or just not making it work for you at that stage in your life, then you need to be moving somewhere else or you need to be thinking about how to go to the next level. I would say sadly though,
00:36:00
Speaker
a lot of companies don't make it clear how to really get to the next level. Companies like Netflix have heard, I've never worked there, but I've heard that you actually put yourself up for promotion at Netflix. You go to your manager and say,
00:36:17
Speaker
I've done all these wonderful things. I'm now operating at the next level. And it's not even just your manager. It's your manager and your team. And they actually decide, okay, have you really done the things that you're saying you should do? Are you really operating at the next level? And that council of your peers are the ones that actually say, okay, they think you're ready or no, they don't think you're ready.
00:36:40
Speaker
I think that is, in my opinion, the best way to do promotion committees because these are the people closest to your work. These are the people that will be impacted by your advancement. Because if you take that new level now and you are not operating at that level, your whole group is going to feel it. So that's the golden standard. That's not what happens in a lot of companies, sadly.
00:37:05
Speaker
Another company that I know that also has a great promotion framework is, I will mention the company since they're a small one, they actually have a rubric.
00:37:22
Speaker
This is the level you are at the next level. This is what that person should be able to do. So you just look at that rubric and you say, I can do A, B, Z, D. And you go to your manager, I can do it now. And they're like, yes, you can do it. Yeah, you're at the next level. You know, that also makes it easy. But for a lot of companies, promotions is mostly relationships and then the work that you've done.
00:37:45
Speaker
But a lot of companies over index on the relationships. And by relationships, I mean, who knows what you're doing, because the promo committee will be made up of people from your department and people not from your department. So you don't want your name to come up and they're like, I don't know what that person's done. Yes.
00:38:04
Speaker
I heard about that project, but I don't really know what it's about. I don't think it's that impactful. So I tell people, be your own evangelist. If you're doing great work, you're working on a project you're proud of, make sure everybody knows about your project. Make sure the impact makes a difference to the bottom line of the company that you are in. And make sure you talk to your manager about your desire to be promoted. Because sometimes you don't even know
00:38:31
Speaker
Promotions that many companies sadly, there are slots, right? So it's not like everybody on the team can be promoted at the same time. It might be that only two promotions your manager can make in the cycle of this year. So if you don't say, and everybody has said, there's nothing your manager can really do for you at that time. I don't like companies that go that way, but sadly a lot of companies do that. So what I would say is number one,
00:38:56
Speaker
make sure people know about your work. Number two, make sure the work is really impactful work, not just because you think it's impactful, but because you can quantify the impact to the bottom line for the company or group that you're working with, how it would help make things better. And then finally, make sure that you're having that conversation with your manager so you know what the situation is, so you don't get disappointed when it doesn't happen or when that's not the right time for you to move forward.
00:39:23
Speaker
And if it happens that you're interested in something else, your current work is not meeting the two things that Gary mentioned, so money-wise or learning-wise, then it's time to move out to something else. And I tell people, don't be scared to search, because if you go out and search, even if you don't want to take a job, people will just make you feel like you're better than sliced bread, even when you come back to work. No!
00:39:48
Speaker
And you'll be like, okay, even if the people don't appreciate me, I'm better than sliced bread. So yeah, go out there, see a lot, and then make a decision based off of that. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. This means to you, I can feel like how much of a confident person you are.
00:40:12
Speaker
I would just like you to share really, especially for people who are kind of maybe battling with self-esteem issues, being able to present themselves, being able to be their own, you know, career evangelist, like you mentioned. How do you think, or what would you say, based on your own experiences, based on the things that you've learned over time, can help them from that shelter and that, you know, self that the talks that they have in their head, that they are not enough, what would you say can help them from that?
00:40:40
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I'd say the first thing is just to look at your personal journey, right, and see where you are in it. For me, I look back, I tell people a lot here, like, if you think about where I've come from, to be here, to be in front of you, and the same for you, right? All that you've gone through to leave the country, to go somewhere else, to be successful in a foreign land, because this is not where we were born.
00:41:07
Speaker
It is a lot and sometimes we underestimate everything that we did, every step that we made to get to where we are and I like to look back at that and you know beat your chest more, pat yourself on the back, do whatever you want to do and just realize that
00:41:25
Speaker
You've achieved something great. Even if you look at where you ultimately want to be in your career and you are not there yet, you still have many years ahead of you to get there. And people say, oh, but I want to retire at this age. No, you can retire whenever you want to retire.
00:41:42
Speaker
It's not something that will be forced on you. So I tell people that journey to wherever you are today, look at it, congratulate yourself on being where you are. So that's the first thing. And then look at where you're aspiring to be, right? When I worked at Twitter, our CEO then, Jack Dorsey, there was something he said that I really like. And even today, I still use
00:42:04
Speaker
He's like, look at where you want to be and walk backwards from there. Because sometimes we look at where we are and walk forward. No, because if you look at where you want to be and you walk backwards, then everything you're doing is leading you there. The, what's it called? The finish line is in front of you. And you can see exactly how you're getting there. Everything that you're doing now makes sense. Because if you look at where you are today and just be, okay, let me be aspiring to something,
00:42:31
Speaker
your finish line will move, it will disappear, you know, and then you keep wanting like, how do I get there? How do I get there?
00:42:39
Speaker
But if you know where you are going, yes, you are making sure that everything you are doing today is leading you there. So I think that's just great advice that everyone can follow. Establish your finish line. Let it be as aspirational, as crazy, as out of the box as you want. That's what you want to do. Then kudos to you. And then from today, you have all the steps now.
00:43:03
Speaker
take step one because you know where you're going don't look at where you are today and start figuring out how you want to get to think about where you want to get to and then think about the steps to get there and yeah all of that self-doubt that wandering
00:43:18
Speaker
that, am I enough? Not enough? Should I be doing this? Most of the time, let me say minimized. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for minimized. And the thing that I'll say is, even after you decide, okay, this is where I want to be, you think about our future, you and you walk backwards.
00:43:35
Speaker
that finish line anytime you like you can still you know erase it and draw the one that fits your situation because life is dynamic it's not static so as things change you move you travel you learn more your family life changes just make sure that the finish line you give to yourself is still something that matters to you yeah
00:43:59
Speaker
So I think moving on to your generative AI work, and I know you mentioned during the email that I should talk about it. I was like, generative AI, what is generative AI?
00:44:15
Speaker
Oh, and you gave me a challenge. So I went to read, and I was like, oh, here's something like JGPT. I can really understand. So I'd like to share more about generative AI, and especially because you mentioned that people can actually now code without being software developers. So I think a lot of young people would like to know that because what kind of details people from
00:44:41
Speaker
sciences and STEM most, at least for me, I can remember there was a time that I wanted to start learning Flota.
00:44:48
Speaker
which is I don't I don't know if you know what Flutter is yes and then I was like oh my god software developers have patience I don't I don't think you just keep running and I was like no this is not for me but to find that you can actually still be able to excel in this kind of profession without learning really how to code that's amazing so just share a little bit more about Generative AI and
00:45:14
Speaker
what our listeners can take away from that. And also you have two products that you've viewed. You share that with me and I know that definitely, definitely I'm going to be using the Better to Service a lot more because I...
00:45:29
Speaker
I tried using it yesterday when I was preparing for this podcast episode and I was like, oh my God, this is really good. So I'd like you to talk about that as well. And also your work around immigration, because I know that you've just built this tool around Q&A for immigration. So I know I wrote, how easy is it for me to legally immigrate to the United States and get responses?
00:45:54
Speaker
I'm sure you would want to emigrate to the United States as well so share everything about your work and what you're doing. Oh yeah thank you. I would say like with everything that's happening right now things are moving so so fast and I am encouraging everyone wherever you are in your journey to make sure that you try one of the
00:46:20
Speaker
tools that are out there right now because so many companies have tools out there. A lot of them are free or a lot of them have a free tier first that has some basic capabilities and then you could go on the pay tier to unlock even more benefits for you.
00:46:37
Speaker
For me, when I first started hearing about chat GPT, which is open AI's product, I doubted that it could do the things that people were saying it could do, right? Because sometimes you read something, someone put something on the pedestal, and then you go try it out. You're like,
00:46:55
Speaker
there's just an aspirational product for them. They cannot do these things that they are saying they can do. When I tried out Chad GPT, I actually went back to something that I knew. About two years ago, I was thinking about really becoming a software developer, and I tell everybody, you are not too young to learn. I wouldn't say old, you are not too young to learn. Whatever you want to learn, make sure you go for it. I had enrolled at a community college here,
00:47:23
Speaker
And I took a programming class, so I learned Java and JavaScript in that class. On my own, I was already learning Python. So I had like a midterm in that class, and I had my final project. My midterm took me four weeks to complete, and then the final project, I was here between six to seven weeks. And I had a partner, so it was both of us working on it. So if you might multiply that, it's the time that we took, or any way you want to quantify it.
00:47:53
Speaker
So that final, the midterm rather, I used charge GPT to code it. It was a game, a guessing game, and I was able to code the game in one hour. So this was something that took me more than four weeks, right? And, um,
00:48:10
Speaker
As soon as I was able to do that, I realized, wow, this is a powerful tool. And how did I do it? I just used text to say, give me JavaScript or Java code to do a guessing game. These are the criteria for the user input. This is how the user would know they've lost or they've won.
00:48:29
Speaker
and this is what I want the game to look like. So I took all of that information that it generated, so that's why it's called Generative AI. You use natural language and it spits out something back to you, be it text, images, or code. I put that in an IDE, which is where you run the code, and then
00:48:49
Speaker
It made mistakes a few times, so that's still the issue with a lot of the tools that are out there for writing code. They cannot take their output as an input to see the middle mistake, but when you go run it or when you look at the code, you could see that there's a mistake and you tell it, oh, there's a mistake in this code. It's like, oh, sorry, here's the right code, right?
00:49:08
Speaker
But that was the mid-term project. And then my final project, I was able to do it in three hours. That's when I realized that I was ready to be a developer. So today I call myself a developer because I could write code, right? With my trusty friend, Chad GTT, and all with Google's vibe. So Google also has a product that is equally good. So I just, I just tell people like, you could be anything that you want to be now. You could be,
00:49:39
Speaker
a coder, writing code out there. You could be data analyst, because if you put your data into a lot of the tools that are out there, you can get really good visualization, right? There's one called Wolfground. That one does very good. And sometimes you don't even have to load data into it. You could just ask it to search the internet and then get data and you'll give it back to you. So
00:50:01
Speaker
That's not a good way, but you don't even have to go to Wolfgram in person now because it's now a plugin. So an extension of it is within the chat GPT. So you can, but you only get that if you pay for the subscription, right? So I tell people like if the subscription is $20, it could be a lot, but if you make some changes somewhere somewhere, you can get that $20 to just try it out and see if it's something that you want to keep.
00:50:30
Speaker
month for another month that is just right out the first month because that's what i did i'm like get one subscription see if it works for me and then i can continue and it's worked for me since then so i've kept my subscription so yeah the other thing that i was able to do with this is actually build two products right so my first product better to service like you're saying because i that product is
00:50:55
Speaker
related to an issue that faced myself, right? Sometimes I'm writing and there's just a word at the tip of my tongue and I can't tell what it is.
00:51:03
Speaker
And I go look at, there's a product out there called thesaurus.com and it's filled with ads. And sometimes it doesn't even give me a word that is related to what I'm requesting. And I was like, wait, my trusty friend, you know, to add GPT, I can actually solve this problem. Cause I don't believe that I was the only one that faced that problem. I'm like, there are others there that face the same problem. Let me come out with a solution to it. So I did that and, um,
00:51:30
Speaker
So far, I use it. I put it out there on different platforms, social media platforms, so that others can get to know about it and use it to. It's free to everyone for now. So, yeah, it's a good one that I would recommend to people to try. The other problem that I thought about solving was immigration and, you know, navigating that process.
00:51:51
Speaker
I always tell people I don't wish immigration on my enemy, right? It's really, really this process that's fraught with, I don't know, like you get tense when you're going through like immigration stuff. Even if you have all your documents, you still worry, did I send it wrong? Did I say something wrong? Are they going to ask me to repeat this process? And I feel like it's easy if you know what's here, if you know what's been asked of you, right?
00:52:19
Speaker
That's how government processes are. They ask you this, you give them that, and it's a one-to-one mapping. Everything is easy. So that's why I built that immigration website. It's brightfutureimmigration.com. It's a Q&A. Right now, we only have the USCIS manual in there, so just for US immigration.
00:52:44
Speaker
in the future I might look into like Canada or the UK or just places you know that my people and most people want to visit. Make sure that there's just clear information there for everyone to make the right decision for themselves. Yeah.
00:53:02
Speaker
And I was just going through the testimony and someone said, this would be a positive addition and answered prayers to those who wish to gain generation. I feel like the information is shrouded, like you never really know what to expect. And just something like this is so helpful. So this is a very impactful thing, the legacy. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
00:53:33
Speaker
It was definitely a labor of love. I enjoyed everything that I went through to learn and to create it. So in the process of creating it actually used other things besides chat GPT. So there's Lang chain, which is.
00:53:50
Speaker
The name itself is Language Chain, and it's a way for languages to come together. And those people, I'm referring to an agent, so virtual people, to do things for you. And it really made a difference as we thought about building the immigration website. So if you think about it, like I was explaining earlier, there's just several steps.
00:54:15
Speaker
that you need to go through, especially sometimes you need to go browse the internet to get information and that information is input for the next step of what you're doing and LinkedIn actually helps you couple that together because it would search within chat GPT for you if you include your API there and then it would also make sure that the sequential steps to answering the question that
00:54:45
Speaker
is asked from the user is actually made possible. Yeah. So the people I was referring to virtual people, but yeah, it's, it's definitely been, um, good learning for me. Well done. Yes. So finally, like the last serious question that I'm going to ask you is what does growth mean to you?
00:55:08
Speaker
grow too. That's a good one. Yeah. I think for me, it actually goes back to something I said earlier, right? So which is think about where you are today. And then two things, move or work or make decisions.
00:55:26
Speaker
that improve your current self, not looking at what others have done, just yourself. How do you improve yourself? And then think about also where you ultimately want to get to either this year, three years from now, five years from now when you retire and then make steps from that end point back to the present day and then start executing on those steps. So for me, growth is
00:55:54
Speaker
defining your future, establishing the steps to help you get there, and then taking the steps in today's world. So yeah, that's the way I think about growth. And if you're wondering, like, what is my own, you know, end point, my end point is when I retire, I want to be lounging in a tropical island. So how do I get there? How do I find myself in a St. Lucia, Bahamas, Antigua, just anywhere, you know? It's doing the work today and saving up money because yeah,
00:56:24
Speaker
That's definitely what I want to do when I retire. So yeah. And that's the goal really. That's the goal. Thank you so much for sharing so much today. I really appreciate the insights that you shared.
00:56:39
Speaker
The tips, everything for just sharing fully, I really do appreciate. I think right now I'd like to ask, you know, more relaxed questions than I would like you on the hot seat. Don't worry, yes. Yes. So the first question, and for me, I think that's the thing that I have not really been able to wrap my head around.
00:57:01
Speaker
how were you able to really integrate in America? Because in America, like you'd hear West Coast, East Coast, I'm like, what is that? And then you hear the, oh, where I am, like the time difference, 7 a.m. I'm like, yeah, like all of those things. It's just unique and peculiar to America. So like, how, like how were you able to just kind of wrap together? Are you still learning some of these things as well?
00:57:30
Speaker
I would say at this point, no, I call myself a local now. I've been here for a long time. I've been here for a while now, yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
But, you know, before into you, was it weird at first to you like, oh, wow, I can begin just another part of America can still be in the morning when I'm already in the after. I know what you're saying. Yeah, I'll say initially, yeah, that was hard to comprehend. I'll still, you know, call people at the wrong time and be like, oh, no, yeah, in that state. So this is not the right time to call you. Yeah. So that's all it happened.
00:58:05
Speaker
And then one thing that I would say, because I'm out here in California, right? When I first got here, the sun will be out and you'll be cold. You need a sweater. You know, that's not something we do back home, right? If the sun is out, there's no way I needed a sweater. So yeah, that was definitely something that I would say surprised me then. And what else? I would say it's going to be a while to get used to the food. Like I used to have my Pepe.
00:58:31
Speaker
trusty pepper to put in the food well, well, but now I'm okay. I'm okay. Yeah. Yes. So what do you watch movies? And if you do, what movies are you currently watching? Which one are you enjoying? Like series, you're probably watching series. Which series are you enjoying a bit? I think when I got here, I got into like the law and order series. I've always liked like crime, thriller, things like that. So law and order just wrapped up, but I recently caught up.
00:59:01
Speaker
They are about, let me see, they have law and order, law and order special victims units. And then I think law and order organized crime. I think that's it. There are three of them. So, yeah, they're all very interesting. I recently caught up on them.
00:59:16
Speaker
Now, what else am I watching? Yeah, I'm doing a lot of YouTube videos, though, and that's something I said I was going to mention. Thank you for asking me this question. Yes, I'm doing a lot of YouTube videos because there's so much learning that one can do from YouTube, right? All the things that I was mentioning.
00:59:35
Speaker
being able to build a product, being able to navigate new tools. So besides Limechain, I've also used another tool, which is a Vector Storage Database called Pinecone, which is a company on its own. And there's also another open source Vector Storage Database called Chroma, which I've also used. And there's a ton of videos online that actually give you a step by step
01:00:00
Speaker
instruction on how to use these tools, not to build exactly what they're building, but to use them for your own purpose. So I urge everyone, like if there's a tool, generative AI, not generative AI, just anything, like the other day I got locked out of my watch, don't ask me how.
01:00:19
Speaker
I was like, okay, let me get back into my iWatch. It took me forever. I was reading the instructions and I'm like, why am I doing this? There's YouTube. I go on YouTube. It took me literally 30 seconds. 30 seconds later, I was in my watch. There's a video for everything nowadays. I urge everyone, go to YouTube and find things that you want to learn and things that you want to watch. Right now, I'm doing a lot of educational videos.
01:00:48
Speaker
on how to advance and accelerate this new world that I mean as a developer. Yeah. True. And YouTube is free as well. You don't have to pay any subscription. Thank you so much for saying that. Yes. Do you listen to music? I do. You don't really like music, actually. But do you? I do. I do. I listen to a lot of music, right? I think for me,
01:01:16
Speaker
I just, I start my day with music and I relax during my day with music. I tell people like invest in good headphones. Like that's one thing that you need, you know, so you don't want to use your music to bother everybody because people might not be into your music with your headphones. You know, you can be in your space. I listen to a lot of Spanish music actually. Yeah.
01:01:44
Speaker
Say that again. Zumba is Spanish. No, I don't know. I don't do Zumba though, but it might be. I don't know. Yeah. Don't ask me things that are related to exercise. I do take walks, so I'm not a sedentary person, but let's just leave it at that.
01:02:03
Speaker
Yes, my friend has invited me multiple times to maybe Zumba or hot yoga, I don't know, one of those things. And I'm just like, I'll be the one that would drag the class down. So maybe I'm not a person you want to invite to this. I like to do my own dance. I like to exercise on my own. So yeah, but yes, I definitely prior to the pandemic, you'll find me in the gym.
01:02:30
Speaker
I like more like the bikes and things like that, you know, the treadmills. I don't, the dance, the treadmill, if I get tired, I could slow down. But you get dancing with people, that energy, and you get tired. How are you going to slow down?
01:02:45
Speaker
So no, no, I like to do my exercise at my own pace. And then I like swimming too. Like, swimming is just so relaxing. I tell people, like, if you can't swim, please go learn how to swim. I like how to swim here in the US, right? So I took it as a class and do my master's program at Berkeley. So I tell people, right, if you're in a college, university, you're in a school, a lot of the programs have a swimming class.
01:03:10
Speaker
or you scream class, definitely take it as a class and learn to scream because it's just so relaxing. So yeah, those are the things I do.
01:03:23
Speaker
I'd like to be here because my friend couldn't swim and now she's in the UK within three months. She's not to swim and I'm I've just been here. I haven't done anything. So yes, I think exactly. Yeah. Going for vacation very soon. And it's like we're going to Montenegro. Oh, fancy. Yeah. And I'm like, I need to obviously learn how to swim. So I enjoy my experience. So yeah.
01:03:53
Speaker
so it's totally good to reach here and it just makes a whole world of difference you know yeah this is so much the water so relaxing like living in california here if i couldn't swim like i'll just be missing out on most of my experience well thank you so much for here again i'm mindful of the fact that we're on time right if a longer time again then we would exceed the one hourly meets that
01:04:22
Speaker
conversation. But I could go on and on because I just really, first of all, love listening to your voice. You sound so good. So cool. And even the story that you share, the story is not even story, the stories that you shared, your experiences, all of these. I just know that at least one person listening to the podcast would have taken a lot from me. So thank you so much for sharing your story and doing this with us today.
01:04:48
Speaker
Oh, no, thank you. And, you know, thank you for creating this platform. I see how successful you've been, how a lot of people are listening to this podcast. And it just makes a whole world of difference. That is a space like this. And I'm proud to be associated with you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.