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The Power of Communication & Embodying The Spirit of Excellence in Your Career with Seyi Bella
551 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Bukola had an amazing discussion with the one and only Seyi Bella. Seyi is a Partner at Banwo & Ighodalo and an alumni of Harvard Law School. In this episode, she takes us behind the scenes of her professional journey and shares the key drivers behind her achievements. Seyi talks about the power of communication, her passion for mastery and intra-preneurship and going above and beyond. She also tells us about books she is reading, movies she enjoys and shows she loves to watch.
Seyi is truly an icon and deserves all the flowers she has earned 🌟
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Transcript
Introduction & Speaker's Concerns
00:00:05
Speaker
Whatever it is I'm doing around me has to work. It has to make sense. This has to prosper. This has to do right. But it was quite a punch for me because I thought, I'm never going to get into Harvard now. How am I going to do it? It's amazing. That's why in my life, every time I think about my life, I know I will always thank my mother sometimes.
A Week in London
00:00:31
Speaker
Hi guys, I hope you're doing very well today. It's been a fantastic, fantastic week in London. The sun is shining. Everyone is on a high energy. There's been concerts here and there from Beyonce's concert to Bonoboi's concert this evening. Everyone is just having a good time.
Shae Bella's Career Journey
00:00:51
Speaker
How are things in the city that you're currently tuning in from? Today's episode is one that is hugely memorable for me. I got to sit and chat and learn and really unpeel the story behind Shae Bella. Shae Bella is a partner at Banh Wan Eco Dalu.
00:01:12
Speaker
And just like many of us, she had an undergraduate study in Nigeria at University of Lagos. She went on after law school to be admitted into Harvard Law School for LLM. And she's worked in Bawani Godalu ever since. One electrifying feat that she was able to achieve in her career was being the youngest person to attain partner at Bawani Godalu
00:01:41
Speaker
Within the space of 12 years, she became a partner. So the question is, how was she able to do this? What was her formative years like? How was she supported to be able to attain her dreams and hit the goals that she had for herself? How has she continued to exceed expectations
00:02:01
Speaker
and be recognized in our industry as a formidable force. All of these were discussed in today's episode. It really was a beautiful time recording this episode with Shae.
00:02:12
Speaker
I had a good time, had a good laugh. You'll learn about so many other things that she's been involved in, aside from work. And I honestly really do wish her success in all of her endeavors. Whatever she lays her hands on would prosper. She will continue to thrive. She will continue to be that beacon of inspiration. And she will continue to be that light that illuminates everything around her.
00:02:36
Speaker
I loved, loved speaking with her and I'm sure you would also enjoy this episode. So sit back and let's dive in. Alright!
The Growth Podcast Mission
00:02:44
Speaker
The Growth Podcast is a space where we share the real stories behind the stories. We take you behind the scenes of the success stories we read and see online. We lift the wheel.
00:02:56
Speaker
and ask the questions that no one else is asking. To expand your mind and break the limits that society, and quite frankly yourself, have placed in it. And all these is to get you to realize that your version of success is attainable for you, which is attainable for you too.
00:03:14
Speaker
Hi,
Meeting Shae Bella
00:03:15
Speaker
Shae. I hope you're doing very well. Hi, everyone listening. Welcome back to another episode of the group podcast. In this episode, we have someone that is hugely inspiring. I remember the first time that I met her was during my internship at Bawan in Godala. I'm sure right now she's thinking, oh, I don't think I've met you.
00:03:36
Speaker
Well, in the summer of 2018, I had an internship at Banh Wanigodalo. And I just remember that that time you had just gotten your partnership. And I was like, oh my God, because you were so young in comparison with the other people that I saw as partners at Banh Wanigodalo and even other law firms that had worked in and interned in previously.
00:04:00
Speaker
And so I was like, no, this person is a trailblazer. And I'm just finally glad that everything has worked together. And finally, today, we're having to have a discussion about your career growth today.
A Day in the Life of Shae Bella
00:04:14
Speaker
So before we start with anything serious, I think I would just like to take in life's headgear and ask about how your day has been. What have you been up to?
00:04:24
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a wonderful day today. Today has been good. Usually sometimes starts with meetings. Today I had several meetings in the morning, really good meetings. It's amazing sometimes when you're
00:04:41
Speaker
and associate all you're doing. You're really just doing work meetings. Today, my day started a bit with more business development meetings, and I like that. It was really good. And then, of course, then moved on to catching up with lots of emails, and then just giving instructions to team members, and just catching up then with real core work, so looking at some opinions and some docs. Yeah, but it's been a good day, productive one.
00:05:10
Speaker
And now I'm here. And she joined so early. I was telling her before we started recording that you're the first person that has joined almost like 15 minutes to the time of the broadcast. I'm very impressed. Forgive me sometimes. And if I find that I don't like to, I don't like to be late. So I would sometimes join early and just check to be sure that everything's working all right. I actually had my IT guy just
00:05:38
Speaker
stand by me and I just like please let's just make sure that everything's working. It's a good thing and I hope everyone is listening like do things very early because sometimes you know there might be technical issues or things to work on and you might be anxious if you're not well prepared or if you don't come early yes.
Influence and University Life
00:05:59
Speaker
So I think let me start with just going back to when you were a child, when you were young, because I'm currently like an organizational psychologist. And so I like everything that has to do with, oh, when you were a child, what decisions did you make that formed how you reason now? But going back to when you were a child,
00:06:20
Speaker
How did you make the decision to go into the path of the Lego profession? So did you have lawyers that you were surrounded by, or like some of us who like to talk when we were young, when we talked a lot.
00:06:37
Speaker
Because you're talking a lot and you argue a lot, so you should be a lawyer. So how was that like for you? Well, for me, I'd say my mother is a very big influence. So my mom would just say, you're going to be a lawyer. I know you're going to be a lawyer.
00:06:53
Speaker
And she kind of did that with all of my siblings. I think maybe the Holy Spirit was speaking through her or something, but she would just look at us and just say, I think this is what you're going to be. And not just think, she was almost kind of speaking me to us. For me, she always said, you're going to be a lawyer. And I kind of, you know how sometimes when you tell children things, it just kind of sticks in their brain. And I just started to
00:07:21
Speaker
do really well in the art subjects. But more particularly, I was watching a lot of law movies. I was reading a lot of legal fiction and just really excited about law generally. So I want to say specifically that there were people around me that I saw as lawyers.
00:07:44
Speaker
But as I started to think a bit more about studying law, then of course I had an aunt here, an uncle there who was a lawyer. But I won't say it was them specifically that inspired me to study law. I'd say it was, you know, my mom just speaking to me and saying, I think you make a very good lawyer.
00:08:04
Speaker
And then I then also started to realize that I had certain strengths that worked for me. I think that my communication skills were very good. And then I was quite confident and I was used to participating in debates. I also participated a bit in mock trials. Those kinds of things just really excited me.
00:08:24
Speaker
So I'd say that was my direction. On the other hand, really, I mean, all the boys in my house really signed should have, my mother is a doctor, father, doctor, so my older brother, a doctor. So the boys in my house actually did sciences, and I'm the only girl. So I guess it was good to do something different.
00:08:44
Speaker
And I think honestly, like parents can be very intuitive because they've been with you. So they kind of know, okay, my daughter would be great at this thing. And it's just good to see that your mom nurtured you into becoming this woman that you had today. So I think then just going back to studying at the University of Lagos, because I checked your link and I was like, oh my God, you were at the University of Lagos in 1999.
00:09:13
Speaker
Because I started in 2014 and I was like, okay. But yeah, I'd just like to know what was your experience like at the University of Lagos, coming into school, how did the experience of meeting with new people just
00:09:38
Speaker
forming your, becoming your own person, how did that shape you? Were there things that you wish you did more in university? Were there things, are there things that you can patch yourself back and say, oh yes, I'm glad that I participated in that. So just give me a 360 degree view of how your university life was like.
00:09:56
Speaker
So I'd say university life was, it was good for me. I didn't stay on campus. I came to school every day from home. Initially, I remember when I was, because I went to Queens College. So I obviously was excited to be coming to campus and I wanted to, I did want to stay on campus. And I expected my mom to say, no, don't go. You know, parents don't like to release us, but she was like, fine, go, go ahead.
00:10:26
Speaker
I remember getting in my room then, when the room was allocated to me, it's a hall called Fagmua. I'm not sure whether it's still called that then. And I just thought, no, I cannot stay in this place, I'm going to die.
00:10:45
Speaker
So I just kind of ran away. So my mom gave me the option, thankfully. I was lucky to have the option of coming from home. I had a neighbor, actually, who was also doing that. So it was like going to school, or we just go there and come back and all. But if I did want to hang out with friends or anything, there were no restrictions as to that. I could do that if I wanted to. It was just that I wasn't living on campus. In terms of law, as it were,
00:11:13
Speaker
I think it was a really good journey in terms of a discovery for me, actually. I started off, of course, in your year one, you're doing lots of board courses. You're not necessarily doing many legal courses. In fact, I'm not even sure you're doing legal courses. In year one, of course, you're doing all the philosophy, sociology, and all that in your own political science introduction to this, introduction to that.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I did all of those things, introduction to computer science and all. And I had like a group of friends, you know, at the time. And when I got to year two, where I started to do more legal courses, I think my best course at the time was legal methods. And I think that actually exposed me to
00:12:02
Speaker
enjoying law and seeing that for you to be a good lawyer, you really had to have great analytical skills. So I really like legal methods. Of course, I go and A in it. And it was one of the courses at the time that people used to be afraid of because we had one professor at the time. Of course, I won't mention his name, but they were just kind of scared that, ah, this guy, will he give you good marks and all. But that was a course that I got A twice in that.
00:12:30
Speaker
and I really liked it. I liked the fact that it really tickled my curiosity, asked plenty questions and all of that. I got good grades to be honest and I'm thankful to God for that. I taught my class consistently from year two to year five and
00:12:52
Speaker
In terms of the journey, what would I say I really liked about what really helped me? So there's one thing, yeah, you're a good student. Yes, that was there. But there were other things about university that I liked. I liked the relationships that I met. I was thankful to be friends with people who were also very strong in character.
00:13:12
Speaker
people who also had the fear of good, and were very principled and ambitious, and should just say, just things that they wanted to do for themselves with life. And when you have good company, when you're surrounded by people who also motivate you as well, you kind of motivate each other. So I'm thankful for the friends that I had around that period.
00:13:38
Speaker
And for one of my friends particularly who is now actually a professor at the University of Lagos currently, we both used to go to the library to go and report our cases directly. I know that many people, many students don't like going to report their cases. They don't really like going through the law books and studying, reading case law. I enjoyed reading case law.
00:14:03
Speaker
I loved it. I liked reading from certain justices. I liked Justice Kyle de Aschore. I liked reading Justice Luputa of Blessed Memory. I mean, these are all justices, but I really liked, I liked to read how they fought, their folk patterns.
00:14:19
Speaker
And I think that that also opened my mind to how to analyze, how to think, how to see that with law, you're really just having one plus one is equal to how are you then doing your deductions. I always say that a lot of people feel like
00:14:36
Speaker
No, no, you don't need to pass mathematics to be a good lawyer. And while that may be the case, the reality of it is I still think that mathematics has a lot of lessons in terms of deductions. I apply those types of deductions as well, even when you're studying law and
00:14:55
Speaker
trying to understand how to resolve legal issues. So I would say that I honed my skills in terms of deductive reasoning, analytic reasoning. I like the fact that I had good friends that also motivated me and be encouraged. I'm thankful for the faculty, seasoned lecturers as well, very smart and very encouraging. So I really did have a good time in University of Lagos and I'm thankful for that experience.
00:15:25
Speaker
So, apart from that, towards my year four, I was Vice President of the Law Society. And that story is what sort of precedes my career at Banua and Nigudalu, actually. So, I was in year four, University of Lagos, and I went to raise funds
00:15:46
Speaker
because I wanted to do a party. So apart from the fact that I was a book person, I also liked to enjoy myself. Actually, my friend and I, we always do stuff for the best restaurants. We're always doing restaurant hopping and all that. So it was a blend for me. It wasn't just all book, book, book, book, book at all. And this time we wanted to
Career Shaping Internship
00:16:06
Speaker
have a party. And I was thinking, where are we going to get money from?
00:16:09
Speaker
And we started to write down the list of the names of partners in top law firms in Nigeria that were Unilag alumni, basically. And then we wrote down Mr. Femi Olubanu's name. And we said, well, this guy went to the University of Lagos. Let's go and meet him and ask him for money. And so I went to his office, Banwanigudala, at the time at my theater all over the road.
00:16:34
Speaker
I didn't know anything about Bahamu and Iguodala at the time. I just went there to look for money to do patsi. I went there, I saw Mr. Femi Ulubao, and I said, why are you here? I said, well, we're looking for money. We have this annual Lord Dina. I said, which annual Lord Dina? He just wants to do patsi, right?
00:16:54
Speaker
I said, yes, in short, we just want to have a good party. And he was like, okay. And he asked his, he just said, you should call the accountant. And they called the accountant and he wrote me a check of 100,000 there. This was 2003.
00:17:12
Speaker
Now, $100,000 in 2003, ha, that was plenty money. Plenty money at the time. And with that money, we're able to do fantastic stuff with that money. But he said, look, before I give you this money, I'm giving you this money on one condition. You have to come and intern with me for one month. And I said, really? He's like, yes, you have to come here. You walk with me for one month. I said, okay, fine.
00:17:38
Speaker
So I took the check and that began my journey as a lawyer at Baumwandigudeno. Yeah. Like it just, for me, I'm like something that wasn't planned because how it just like cemented your entire career. I'm sorry. You were actively looking for it. No, I wasn't.
00:17:59
Speaker
I wasn't actually. In fact, I remember when I do think about it, when I was in probably F4 Unilac, I thought that I would work at F4 Acurially because F4 Acurially
00:18:15
Speaker
was my mom's lawyer. And I thought, oh, you know, maybe I'd be able to go and meet, you know, Mr. Dimalak, Kiril Yessir, and I'm going to have a chat with him. In fact, I had invited him for a Muta Mok competition that we had hosted as Law Society. And I was thinking that was where my mind was. It was not Bamo and Igudalu at all. But yes, that's another story, another day.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean like the elements of the world just wanted everything to work out in that way. So let me get started with you on the elements of the world because I would not get there right now. Say God or Dad my footsteps and I find I will tell you a bit more about that. Actually, it was some time later that Mr. Lubao actually had a conversation with me and he said, so you think I just gave you the 100,000 naira just like that?
00:19:09
Speaker
he didn't say actually the day before I was looking we were looking to have interns in our office and I had actually asked one of my lawyers to find out the top five in each class at the time and your name had come up my office and you were asking me for money I just looked at my list myself the same girl
00:19:35
Speaker
whose name is on this list is now walking to my office directly to ask for money. So that's why I give you that money because I knew I wanted you to come here. So it's like how you see that things just conspired to work in your favor actually. That's been my story. That's been my story. A lot of favor from God is what is where I see my, is how I see my story. Wow. Okay.
Advice for Aspiring Lawyers
00:20:01
Speaker
A lot to unpack, but let me get you back to your analysis of how the legal profession works and how, for many people, there's this misconception that you don't need mathematics. You don't need to be analytical to be able to walk in the law profession. But actually, it has a lot to do with deduction, logical reasoning,
00:20:23
Speaker
and all of that. And you also mentioned that you topped your class when you were at University of New York. So I wanted to ask, I think I need tips that you can basically share to people listening now who are currently studying law and would like to know how to excel
00:20:39
Speaker
in in in school okay okay thanks so for for students who are looking to excel i don't know how you can't there i'll say that there are no shortcuts to it um definitely
00:20:54
Speaker
deductive reasoning is fundamental to being a great lawyer. With respect to the mathematics, whilst you may not necessarily be great at numbers, some people just freeze as soon as they see numbers. But the understanding in being able to say, oh, when you have word problems, even mathematics comes in word problems, being able to figure out what is being asked.
00:21:21
Speaker
being able to understand a certain set of facts or scenarios and be able to say oh yeah this is where they're trying to go to and being able to apply that to come to a conclusion. I think it's definitely still the same analysis and still the same kind of skill that is required. So whilst I would say you know I do understand that some people may just be you know terribly afraid of numbers and not want to go there
00:21:48
Speaker
My encouragement would be for people to actually open themselves up and actually see to ensuring that they are not afraid about applying themselves from a deductive reasoning perspective. What also helps with deductive reasoning as well? It can also be learned as a skill.
00:22:06
Speaker
And I think that the more you keep reading in terms of the patterns, because it just follows patterns, is, you know, keep reading, keep reading case laws. For me, that worked for me. I enjoyed it like reading a story. I enjoyed it like reading fiction. I enjoyed it like seeing how they took different laws and applied them to different sets of facts.
00:22:30
Speaker
So usually in university, you would have something called the IRAC rule, which is your I for issues, R for rules, A for application and C for conclusion.
00:22:45
Speaker
Let me tell you something, law students, those rules still work as well, even in practice. So that same rule, and that still follows the deduction. So what is the issue, identifying what the issue is? What is the rule of law that is applicable to this particular issue? What aspect of law is applicable to it?
00:23:06
Speaker
Is it going to be shipping? Is this a shipping law issue? Is this an oil and gas law issue? Is this corporate law? And if it is corporate law, if it's a company's act, where specifically? And this is where your knowledge comes into. You might not necessarily know all the law, but your ability, the skills that you gain in university help you to identify what aspect of law is being dealt by a certain set of facts.
00:23:33
Speaker
Then you have your A, which is your application. That is where your analysis comes into. And to be able to get at a conclusion, you can just conclude as a matter and just say, well, this is what I think in my own opinion, no. Nobody cares about your opinion. You have to use a certain set of rules or a certain set of cases to come to an opinion.
00:23:55
Speaker
And so in that case, you must understand, you must know your rules and you must be able to explain how this rule, if applied to a certain set of facts, makes you really come to a particular conclusion.
00:24:10
Speaker
So that's the same issue as well. But again, I would say that from my perspective, there are no shortcuts. You have to read. My secret, as I would say, was reading case law. It helped my own understanding. It helped me to be able to do application and legal analysis. And that's what is critical. Another skill that lawyers must have is communication skills.
00:24:37
Speaker
must be able to express to yourself. You have to, you cannot be a good negotiator. You cannot be confident as a lawyer if you don't know how to speak, if you don't know how to express yourself. And the reality of it is that you must find avenues where you can build up your confidence, you can teach yourself to speak a bit more, you can develop your speaking skills.
00:25:03
Speaker
So I would say that I would encourage you, find if you're starting from like a year one, you know, year two, find, and it may not necessarily be law related. It might be just things that give you the opportunity, platforms to be able to speak. Some people did a lot of debates when they went to country school. I mean, those are things that helped towards your communication skills, the ability to be able to speak concisely.
00:25:28
Speaker
But it's important that you develop your communication skills. You have to be able to speak very well. And speak English is like the master key for any lawyer. How you write English and how you speak English. So if I had to say what are the top skills for a lawyer, number one, how you write, number two, how you speak, number three,
00:25:53
Speaker
their ability to be able to use deductive reasoning analysis to be able to do that. And there are other things, and these are more on the technical side, there are other soft skills from an emotional intelligence perspective that also comes to play with being a good lawyer.
00:26:11
Speaker
My experience as a commercial lawyer has made me understand that law, some people say for them law is combative, some people say for them we're in adversarial positions, but that has never been my own posture we do. I've always liked the win-win position.
00:26:27
Speaker
um when people can walk out of something feeling like I was hurt or maybe your agreement was superior here and there or maybe mine was superior in this aspect but we don't come out feeling like we just punched ourselves come out feeling like we we agree to disagree
00:26:45
Speaker
or get to a point where at least not necessarily in all cases, because there might just be some cases where you absolutely can't agree on an issue. But even then, you don't attack the human beings person. You just focus on the issues at hand. So they're all of all those soft skills that you also learn with practice that come in. But as a university student, please focus on, make sure you're writing properly.
00:27:12
Speaker
teach yourself to write proper English, writing concisely, and yet engaging in activities that open up your ability to be able to speak properly and good, clear English when you do so. And then your deductive reasoning is what I would say to focus from a technical perspective. Knowledge of the law. Pay attention in class, no, so that when someone says, oh, I have this question, you can immediately say, oh, this is the aspect of law to go to.
00:27:41
Speaker
Wow, like this is so profound. Like I like that you necessarily do not just focus on the technical aspect, but you also talked about soft skills that students can start developing now so that they can become well-rounded legal professionals. And also like just even thinking about the things that you're saying.
00:27:59
Speaker
You kind of give a master class on how to be an outstanding professional in the workplace because communication is key. And especially as an organizational psychologist, when I do my research and study on how people thrive in organizations, you find that people that communicate well
00:28:16
Speaker
they have the command of English and they're able to express themselves better. There's a positive correlation with how well they advance in companies. So it's very important as much as we're studying and we're doing all of these that we need to do to get our degrees, we're also investing in those soft skills that help us turn it off. Absolutely. In fact, there are some law firms that require you as part of the entry test these days, require you to come and do a presentation.
00:28:46
Speaker
So you're doing a PowerPoint presentation to a group of people who would ask you questions about your presentation. And if or in stand you can't express yourself properly, that's a problem.
00:28:59
Speaker
A colleague of mine was telling me the other day about an interview with someone. And the person goes, a lawyer who goes on the interview to say that, well, actually, you know, don't judge me by this interview because complication is not one of my strengths. But I promise you that when you give me the work, I can actually do it. You know, come on, come on. It doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. It doesn't.
00:29:25
Speaker
As much as you're building yourself in term, don't let it just be that you're guessing an A, right? Participate in those things as well that, and they're little things. There's some volunteering positions, NGOs, and things that require you to engage a bit more with people.
00:29:43
Speaker
Use that. Some people go to, some people have speaking positions even in their, in the mosque or even in church or whatever. And you're just using those platforms to push yourself out. Lawyer cannot be afraid. A lawyer must be confident in how they communicate. Oh, thank you so much, Shae. So I think just going on to speaking about your
00:30:12
Speaker
I looked at also when you got your degree, I know that I know a couple of people now who are currently taking like the LMS and have it. But it wasn't a thing that a lot of people really thought about doing back then. So you find so many professionals just after Nigerian law school, they're just going to work in and then build the experience and become BSNs or, you know, videos in their fields.
Journey to Harvard & Challenges
00:30:40
Speaker
But
00:30:42
Speaker
I saw that you're taking your master's in Avon. I wanted to know, was this something that you wanted to do by yourself? Did you have people that supported your vision? How did that even come about? It's amazing. That's why in my life, every time I think about my life, I know I will always thank my mother two times. So for me,
00:31:05
Speaker
I didn't actually think about Harvard from the beginning. I would say that. And now, at this time I talk about Harvard now, I mean like in university. I remember that I always wanted to go to the UK. So for me, going to go and do my master's was either going to Oxford or going to Cambridge. That's where I wanted to go.
00:31:29
Speaker
And I remember my mom, probably like in year three or year four, saying, ah, what about Harvard? And I was just like, mommy, please. Ah, that one's too much. Oh, I don't know how to do that. Please just leave that away. And then she just said, you just never know. And you know, that's why I said, sometimes this swing of seeds, you must put in the heads of your children and you don't realize what it can do, the impact. So I remember that I then went online and then I ordered a brochure.
00:31:56
Speaker
the brochure was sent to me and it was I remember in my bedroom I just put it in there I just look at it I look at the school I'm like wow wow wow wow and then the internet wasn't very available the way it is now I mean we then we had to go to a cyber cafe you pay for time they'll give you this little um scripts or paper with some username and passcode to put in there
00:32:20
Speaker
And that's what I did. And I actually looked at that. I looked at the brochure. Then the next year again, I'll go and put and ask for another brochure again to be sent to me. So for like, I had like two or three brochures of just, and it was just looking, reading, understanding what was required. So I had my eyes there. And I knew that that was where I wanted to apply to. So it was when, when would be the right time? When would I go?
00:32:46
Speaker
And because I had my eyes there, that also helped me to also focus in university because I knew the conditions. I knew that it would be easier if I was top of my class, if I retained that position. I knew they wanted to have people that were a certain percentile of a class. So I knew, okay, so I need to make sure that I keep getting those high grades to be there.
00:33:09
Speaker
So even though I didn't graduate with a first class, I did graduate top of my class, and then I got into law school. And in law school, of course, there's a lot of pressure on you because you're thinking, wow, I graduated top of my class, and so I have to get a first class out of law school. Law school, I did all the exams and all. But when the results came out, I didn't even get a 2-1. I got a 2-2 from law school, and I was completely devastated.
00:33:36
Speaker
I just thought to myself, what happened here? And so I tried to investigate. I asked for my script to be recalled. The Council of Legal Education, they apologized. They said, no, unfortunately, they were not going to let me see my script. But all they could tell me was that it was criminal procedure. And I said, even if it was criminal procedure, I want to see my script. So I said, no, I'm sorry. We can't allow you seeds. We can't recall.
00:34:00
Speaker
at all. There was no way I didn't go to just see my script. And some people tried to intervene for me because I was sure they had to be a mistake. But nothing happened. And even though I won prizes, because I won the best student in legal drafting and conveyancing, I just couldn't, they couldn't understand. I just took it back. But it was quite a punch for me because I thought, I'm never going to get into Harvard now. How am I going to do it? You know, so
00:34:24
Speaker
When that happened, I guess there was a lot of, I took some time off. I remember the time I was in London, I went to see my dad. I just took some time off and I just started to work on my personal statements, work in my essay, and I was just really praying. I was just trusting God. God, please help me now at this time because I really don't know that on
00:34:45
Speaker
based on what had happened at law school, where I would still be able to get in there. And I actually put the story in my personnel statement to say, look, I was very vulnerable. I just really rose from my heart to say, this is me by getting brochures for the last three years waiting for this to happen. This is me working really hard. And then to now have this at a point. And I'm sure people here, at least some people will be like,
00:35:10
Speaker
Now, wow, what do you mean, tsu tsu? Please, what do lovers that got tsu tsu? What do you want us to do? I mean, that's not the point here. You know, it was just for someone who thought you needed certain things to be somewhere, it was devastating when you then felt like, I don't know whether I'm going to be able to get it.
00:35:28
Speaker
So I remember that day, March 15th, I won't forget March 15th actually, because two days before my birthday. And I remember I was just sitting in 2007 now.
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah, 2007. So I was just sitting in my office and I was just checking my emails. I had applied to some other schools, Georgetown, I'd gotten that. And I was waiting for, you know, you're waiting for the one that you really, really want. And I remember I waited, ah, I didn't even finish reading it. Once I just saw congratulations, ah, I would.
00:36:05
Speaker
Oh, it's in my office. I got into Harvard. I got into Harvard. And everybody came, oh, wow, wow, wow. Amazing, amazing. So that happened, and that was really, really, really good. And I always tease them in my office. I always tell them that I'm the one that opened the slots for Banh Wainigodalu at Harvard now. Because since then, Harvard has taken one, at least one person from Banh Wainigodalu getting into Harvard every year.
00:36:34
Speaker
So I always tease them and say they need to come and pay me for opening the doors for them. But yes, that was my experience. Yeah. And I just love that we had this conversation because when I check your LinkedIn, it's easy for me to see, oh, well, after school, she did after university, she went to law school and then immediately got to Harvard.
00:37:03
Speaker
But you never really know the stories behind your scenes, like what actually happened, the process, all the feelings and the emotions. You never really get to know those things until people share their stories with you. And I'm just happy that you shared that. I'm very happy that you mentioned your mom being just a very pivotal
00:37:25
Speaker
person in helping you think about Harvard, helping you see the possibility of being there. And it reminds me of this book that I just read by Zain Asha, Where the Children Take Us, and how she grew up in London and her mom was an immigrant. And obviously, there weren't really much expectations on
00:37:52
Speaker
for that were immigrants, but mom told her, you know, you have to go to Oxford, like you can go to Oxford. And even when she didn't see the possibility, a mom would drive her down to Oxford to see people there ask questions or just make, give her that vision that it's possible for you to be here. And when she got into Oxford, she just couldn't believe it because it was something that her mom had sewed into her life. So it's just, it's just very,
00:38:20
Speaker
importance for like just seeing how parents can shape their kids and how like just the things that you do, your kids watching, the quotes that you say to them, the vision that you give them and just not putting a cap on the possibilities for them is so important and that I could hear from your
Career Progression & Culture
00:38:42
Speaker
story.
00:38:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think just moving away from Harvard, I know you're going to Harvard, completed Harvard and then came back to Bournemouth and then you continued on until you became a partner and from what I can observe from LinkedIn was you started working at Bournemouth in 2006 and in 12 years, at 2018, you became a partner.
00:39:08
Speaker
So I just wanted to know, like, how was that journey for you? Because even from the communication that I saw online, it said that you were the youngest partner at the time. So how were you able to achieve such a mind-blowing achievement in just a short amount of time?
00:39:27
Speaker
So I would say, first of all, that there was a me-pat, but there was a lot of the Banh Wani Gudalu parts, to be honest. There was a me-pat that was very diligent, but there was also the Banh Wani Gudalu parts that also recognized or basically had the culture of meritocracy. So they rewarded hard work, they encouraged hard work,
00:39:58
Speaker
And they also put you out there and they celebrated hard work. So I'm very thankful for that. Obviously for me, from the way I've been speaking, I'm also a woman of faith. So I know that there was a favor factor. There was a God factor as well for me. So that in all of the diligence and in all of the hard work as well, there was also a favor factor as well. Everything that I did, God blessed.
00:40:26
Speaker
And that helped me to excel. And God also gave me favor amongst the people that I worked with. People were always very impressed with the work that I did. But I think that if I was going to then speak to people who are also then saying, oh, how do I accelerate my career? What do I do in the legal profession? I think there are certain qualities from the me perspective now that I would highlight.
00:40:53
Speaker
And one particularly, I would say two things. One would be the passion for mastery and two would also be what I usually call intrapreneurship. So many people who work as employees just only see themselves as employees and only do the work they're given for the day.
00:41:15
Speaker
I would say that, and when I talk about this, I'm not going to say that I deliberately understood that what I was doing at the time was intrapreneurship. No, I didn't. I was just being shady. But I always had a broader view of everything I was doing. I was concerned about everything in the office. I wasn't just concerned with my day to day.
00:41:34
Speaker
I was concerned about why there was paper on the floor. I was concerned about why tea wasn't brought in at the right time. I was concerned about why this part of the office looked dirty. I was concerned about why HR had this particular policy that wasn't working. So that from the beginning, I always had a broader perspective as to how this business should be run successfully. And I wasn't afraid to express my views at all.
00:41:59
Speaker
And so whatever I thought wasn't working, I expressed very well. And that's why I said I'm also thankful for the platform because you could also be a person who expresses, but if your views are not welcome or if your views are suppressed, you eventually become a person that doesn't speak because you will just feel no point talking. But I'm grateful that
00:42:23
Speaker
the firm, the founding partners, those who were partners at the time, were people who also, it was a culture of that encouraged speaking. And we still say at Banwa and Igudalo today that we have an open-door policy.
00:42:39
Speaker
And so people are encouraged to be able to speak their mind about things that need to be done well, or better, or things that we need to just scrap because they don't work anymore. So I was very thankful for that. But I must say, one, I said entrepreneurship. The other thing is mastery. I just really wanted to be good at what I was doing.
00:42:59
Speaker
I really wanted to be the best at what I was doing. So I would always, you know, I was pushing myself really, I was pushing myself, but I'm also thankful for the opportunities to exposure. So my partners at the time see a training that he thought would benefit me. And they would say, Oh, look, you know, she, I think you should go for this training abroad. They would, there were lots of transactions that I was being given and they
00:43:25
Speaker
That experience, so for every lawyer, experience is key. So the more and more you do something, you get better at it. Then of course, in addition to experience, the exposure, that also comes itself with exposure. Your ability to negotiate with international counsel and not feel intimidated by international counsel. You think, oh, no, no, no, no. If you're like, well, look, you went to the same school, so I probably even went to your, the one that's even better than your own self.
00:43:52
Speaker
if I can say that. But really, you get to a point where you understand what you're doing. And I think for me, there was that quest. I just really wanted to be good at what I was doing. And that's just the spirit of excellence that has always just kind of worked with me, whether from university and all of that. So I would say there was a me factor. There was also Ibanwanigudalu factor. And of course, largely there was a God factor as well, just working for my own good.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah, you mentioned two things, passion for mastery and entrepreneurship. And I just kind of want you to speak more on entrepreneurship. How would you say someone is just starting out in their career can start getting those skills and taking their career as like your business? How would you say they can start doing that? So I think firstly is to have a mind of service.
00:44:50
Speaker
And when you come into the place, who do you think, who are you? You must see yourself as a person that is there to bring value. And you must see yourself as if you were the owner of the business and you're bringing value to this business. What would I do? And sometimes that you may feel, well, let me just do my work. I've just been given work to do.
00:45:15
Speaker
Now doing your work is fine, but if you're thinking about this business in its entirety, you may then realize that even if I did my work very well, if there are certain aspects of
00:45:32
Speaker
this business that I don't contribute to or help to fix, it will eventually have an impact on the bottom line. It will eventually have an impact on me. How does that work for you? I'll say first of all with ownership. Take responsibility. Own the work that you do. Don't only own a small part of it. Own the entirety of the work that you do. Be ready to step in.
00:45:59
Speaker
I was lucky when I was in, when I was a co-oper. I was working with, yes, I was working with Mr. Louboutin on one transaction and he had to travel for an audience meeting in the US and I had to be there. I had to be the one who was leading and
00:46:16
Speaker
He didn't hand it over to anybody else. He could have handed it to his senior associates. But I was a cop and he said, I think you can do it. Go ahead. Go and do it. And I was doing meetings. Of course, I was initially afraid. First one or two meetings, I couldn't do it. But I just took responsibility for everything. I didn't wait to be instructed.
00:46:35
Speaker
And that's the spirit. You must first own it from your heart. You must own it from your spirit. You must desire for the business you are at to work because you realize that your prosperity is in the prosperity of the business. As the business prospers, you prosper as well.
00:46:53
Speaker
And for many people, as I told you, I wasn't doing it because I had read about it and I felt like this is the way to do it. I was doing me at the time, which is just whatever it is I'm doing around me has to work. It has to make sense. This has to prosper. This has to do right.
00:47:15
Speaker
And so questions, I could see for business and I could make recommendations and I could provide suggestions and say, look, this is what I think we should be doing or we're not doing this right. And it's in hindsight, then I didn't see how the partners could because now that I'm a partner and I then look at associates, I then you definitely will value because you bring an X factor when you're not just doing all your work.
00:47:43
Speaker
And then you're able, you find that it is that associate who is going over and beyond the work that you actually feel comfortable to have certain kind of business development decisions or conversations with. It's that person that you're going to say, oh, I'm going to visit somebody, let's go together.
00:48:01
Speaker
because that person is giving a general business perspective, not just in relation to the work. That person is able to say, I think we should go and see Mr. X or see Mr. Y. Or I think, oh, have you heard these guys are coming to town? I think that we should see them. We should do this. Okay. So, um, I would say that this, that would, that would generally be my, be my advice.
00:48:28
Speaker
Well, just a lot to take you away.
Leisure Activities & Hobbies
00:48:31
Speaker
Thank you so much, Shae, for sharing all these gems. I think I'll go to, like, much more relaxed conversation. When I read Bhawan Nigodalu's communication about when you became a partner, it was written that you enjoy watching movies in your spare time. What would you recommend for us?
00:48:59
Speaker
These days, have I really been watching a lot of movies now? I watch series now on Netflix. Yes, so I watch Netflix. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Even though I've not been watching as much as I used to. What have I seen recently? I don't want to say Gangs in League also.
00:49:25
Speaker
Right. I do want to see that one.
00:49:29
Speaker
Um, but, um, I liked that. And now I try to remember the Netflix series on, is it shadow? Oh, I forgot to say something. Shadow something. Ah, shadow unborn. I liked shadow unborn, actually. Okay. I like shadow unborn. Um, I'm also a, and I don't know whether I should be seeing this in public. Oh, I like budget. All right.
00:50:04
Speaker
I love romance, I love love stories. Sometimes I think that Shona Rand is a bit extra, like some parts I'm like, please, I'll be coming with one already. But the story itself of love, I like love. So yes, so much that.
00:50:27
Speaker
It's worked like four movies before, but I must share with you one. Do you watch reality TV? Reality TV. No, no, not really. I don't watch reality TV. I'm not sure. Okay, well, I like convert reality, but I'm not sure actually. It may not be, likes to be this nice home, home makeover series type of stuff I like to watch, but I'm not sure that that much type of reality.
00:50:54
Speaker
Yeah. No, it is. I love watching real estate ones. I really love. I really love. There's a lady now, I've forgotten her name, based in the US in Utah. And she has this really, she has this program, you know, on home makeovers. And I really love to watch this sort of. I like to see when people's faces light up, when they walk into their new home, and all that stuff. It's usually quite refreshing.
00:51:24
Speaker
to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully. So what music are you listening to at the moment? Right, so yeah, I'm a gospel music fan, no? I'm a gospel music fan, but I also like to dance. So the thing is, in terms of, because you asked the question, listen to when you're saying music that you're listening to,
00:51:51
Speaker
may be different from music that you made down so occasionally too. You're actually embracing that music. So I listen to gospel music. That's what I listen to. Gospel contemporary music. So I listen to that.
00:52:06
Speaker
Then in terms of dance, I can dance gospel music, but I also attend for my workouts, right? I go to my dance class that has like an afro fitness type of thing. Okay. And I really enjoy my workouts. So I go to, I do my workouts, my dance class workouts on Wednesday and Friday. And each year, sometimes I do things that are different. So for a year and we say, okay, I want to just swim in and I just do swimming.
00:52:34
Speaker
But right now, I'm into dancing, so I'm dancing a lot. So there may be some songs that, okay, I'm dancing to and all that. Like I know all the Nigerian pop star people will not be necessarily sitting down to listen to their music because sometimes they won't want to hear me. Once I listen to the four lyrics, I don't want to sing the song again. I don't want to.
00:52:55
Speaker
So I just break out my ears sometimes and just maybe focus on one or two lines that seem sensible to me to move towards dance to, but because I like to dance and I like a good beat and, you know, very, very, really, really good, you know.
00:53:12
Speaker
fantastic beats and all that kind of stuff. So I just know only four lines that I'm dancing to and all that. And that's just because I'm picking that up from my usual weekly dance classes and all that. And I like music generally, so I would nod my head, listen and all that stuff, you know. But yeah, so I'd say by listening more, I like elevation music in terms of course, the music that I listen to. And of course,
00:53:39
Speaker
Nigerian music, I have a couple of Nigerian gospel musicians I like to listen to. I like Dunsing, Nathaniel Bassey, I like Luciana, I like Miro, my kind of people I like to listen to generally. And of course, Victoria Rainsey. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. I think finally, before I ask you the big question that I read you earlier, what book are you reading?
00:54:09
Speaker
Hmm. Books. Or books. Because I think you read those most of the time. Before, I used to read serious books well. But I haven't been very good with that. These days, if I told you, you would laugh at me.
00:54:23
Speaker
Francine Rivers. And I say that because, so I joined the book club because I found out I wasn't reading. And again, that's because by the time I finished reading 300 pages, 200 pages contract documents sometimes, reading just wasn't becoming my place for relaxation anymore.
00:54:45
Speaker
For me to enjoy the reading, it had to be something that was, you know, relaxing for me. So I started to read, I joined this book club. It's called Jesus Food and Drinks or something like that. So we would have a book for the month.
00:55:06
Speaker
And so I've read a lot of Francine River's books and it was a bit nice because they just, as I said, I'm a lover of love and romance. So Francine River was fully insulated for me. So yes, that was really good. Yeah, there was more Francine, I don't know if it's Francine River right now, but there was one book about Osia and
00:55:23
Speaker
he married the prostitute or something. That was Francis Rivers. Yes, that was definitely one of the best Francis Rivers books. No, no, no, no. Yes, that was really good. That was really good. In terms of the most serious books, like the most recent, at least I remember that still has an impact would be, I need to remember his name now, how would you measure your life?
00:55:53
Speaker
I've forgotten now, I was a Harvard professor who wrote that book. How would you measure your life? That was a fantastic book. Yeah, Cleason, Kristensen. That was an absolutely amazing book.
00:56:15
Speaker
And I recommend that book. It was just a wonderful book. It was really, really good. So that's the book I would say I really, really would recommend. For those who haven't read it, actually. I'm going to actually look at it. Because sometimes I'll read self-help books, and after some time, I'm like, I just need something fictional.
00:56:43
Speaker
Yeah, I read every range of books. I love reading books. I don't know why, just transport. Well, reading books, fantastic, really good. And I really want to get back to where, so my husband knows that once I have like a week where I'm not stressed at all, I find a book.
00:57:01
Speaker
to try and read. Well, I guess because I'm part of this book club and I have like yesterday, they sent two books to my house now. So I have one Francis Rivers book I have and another one for all rumors. I'm enjoying this season actually. I'm just like, okay, nothing too serious. He's like, okay, let me just be silly here and just enjoy actually.
00:57:22
Speaker
And you're in this phase, with this people. And it's also good because they're just like, let me just relax. So that's it. That's where I'm now. But I'm sure that I probably pick up something else. My husband reads more serious books. And sometimes he sees me, and you see, yeah, I really find, as you see, I rage now. I say, yes, now. I rage. I'm reading a book. I'm reading a book.
00:57:52
Speaker
I mean, it's still a book.
Defining Growth
00:57:56
Speaker
So finally, the question, what does growth mean to you?
00:58:05
Speaker
So when we say the word growth, what comes to, what are the, let's just start first of the word, what will you say the synonyms for growth are? So if I had to say growth, I would say growth means generally increase, right? Growth means generally developing. And so when I think about,
00:58:31
Speaker
growth, you have to sort of dimension the different aspects of your life. And you can say, what have you added to your life? What have you what has increased in your life? That may necessarily that could be different things, but I always feel like it's good to see growth in terms of different dimensions of your life so that you can appreciate it.
00:59:00
Speaker
you know in in skills okay so if you look at your career maybe you take your career you see okay have I grown in my career um that could be um what are the additional skills that I've learned or picked up over the period of time how has that improved whatever what has been the results or the impacts of those skills for me and has that resulted that could result in a promotion that could result
00:59:27
Speaker
in just impacting the lives of others. You could be a manager reaching out to people and that may just generally be career growth, a bit more visibility in your own area. And you know, trainings and your learnings basically in that aspect from a career perspective. And they might just also be life too as well, where you look at certain things where you unlearn and relearn. And that could be in terms of just
00:59:56
Speaker
things that you look at in your own life that you realize that maybe they're assessing things I need to stop doing that could be dropping down habits and picking up better habits because once you drop something you have to replace actually. So take away for instance I want to stop procrastinating what am I going to do instead? I want to stop unhealthy eating what am I going to do instead?
01:00:21
Speaker
I want to work out what am I going to do? What kind of workouts am I going to do? How do I improve myself? So when I think of growth, I think of improvements. And then as a human being, of course there are well social beings as human beings. How can I be a better friend? How can I be a better wife?
01:00:44
Speaker
And every day is an opportunity to grow. You just have to be open-minded and willing to do it. So last year I may have a friend that I didn't give a birthday present to, even though my mind was hitting me about it and saying I should. And this year I may be a bit more generous and I may be a bit more
01:01:05
Speaker
I may pay attention to details in terms of my relationships. I may be a better family person, I may be a better wife, a better partner, I may be a better team leader. There's also the character growth that's also, you know, important and you know that it's happening because
01:01:26
Speaker
When you grow, there's always impact. There's always a result. Growth is not in a vacuum. So you don't just grow and let us grow and nothing is happening. There's always a result of growth because growth involves change.
01:01:42
Speaker
Even if you look at physical things and you look at a plant, for instance, even if a plant grows, that growth has caused some physical change and that physical change will definitely have some impact in the space that it's in.
01:01:57
Speaker
Whether it's that it's ruined so high that you have to cause it, or it has become more visible, or it's become more beautiful because you think, oh, you cannot see it because it's ruined. Or they also, you know, think that there are more demands because of the size that it occupies.
01:02:14
Speaker
So when you think about growth again, that's stretching, right? And as you stretch, you know, you have capacity, you stretch, you have capacity and you want to thrive in your stretching as well. And then, of course, thinking about it from a plant's perspective, if you're eating a bit more, you're growing a bit more, of course, you need to feed a bit more. So what are you also doing to yourself as well? How are you building a bit more capacity?
01:02:43
Speaker
And how are you also determining things that you probably don't need to do anymore because of certain positions that you occupy? Would that mean, for instance, that you delegate a bit more certain aspects and take up a bit more things? As you take up a bit more roles, it may require a bit more delegation. It may require a bit more mentoring other people.
01:03:09
Speaker
so that they are able to do the tasks that you used to do. They can now do them even very well, and probably even better than you can. And that's what you always want as a leader. So that you're free of space to be able to do other things well as you keep adding more and more capacity for yourself. So that's how I kind of see growth. I know I've said it a bit, but just think about it.
01:03:36
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, like what you said, growth is multifaceted and you have to break it into parts instead of just seeing your life as one and saying, okay, I'm just growing. It's like, okay, what am I doing career-wise? Cause you might find that, what can be career-wise you're growing, but in terms of your relationship with friends and family, that is declining. They have to look at it realistically and break it into parts to see what needs more attention. How do I adjust? Yeah.
01:04:02
Speaker
Very good. There might be different phases as well. There might be different phases or seasons of your life where it is a particular thing that needs to grow now at this time. And there might be another season where you need to focus on something a bit more than others. So you just allow yourself to be extendable. Make sure that you are not static. That's what I'm saying. Wow. Gospel according to she. Thank you so much.
Conclusion & Gratitude
01:04:31
Speaker
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time that you've given me today. I'm sure everyone that's listening will have taken a lot from this conversation. So thank you. And I wish you good success in your journey.
01:04:46
Speaker
I wish you growth. I wish you continued excellence. I pray that you continue to thrive and you continue to grow and continue to inspire. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. And thank you for the opportunity to be on this wonderful podcast. Thank you for even thinking about this idea.
01:05:05
Speaker
creating an opportunity for people to come and share their experiences and for others to also learn from these experiences as well. I know that this in itself is very impactful and I just really pray that those who listen to the experiences that are shared on the platform can learn a few things that they can take back to impact their lives positively. Thank you. Thank you very much.