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Print For Crisis "Looking Back and Ahead"
44 Plays3 years ago
Today we come to you with the, for now, last episode about Myanmar. The initiative Print For Crisis, which has been on the road with us for the last four weeks, has come to an end and we thought it would be a nice opportunity to have a small retrospective of the conversations we were lucky enough to have in support of the initiative.
Through my conversations with Teza, Chiara, and Minn, I learned that there are a lot of reasons for hope and optimism for the future of Myanmar. One reason in particular is the role of the Burmese women, who are not only fighting for political freedom but for a society built on equality. Their blossoming self-esteem is a weapon and there is no turning back of the clock.
If we continue to support Myanmar, change will come sooner rather than later.
This isn't my optimism, it is the optimism of the Burmese people.
_________
SHOW NOTES
Print For Crisis Website
Print For Crisis Facebook
Print For Crisis Instagram
I Support Myanmar
Teza on Facebook
Minn on LinkedIn
Chiara's Website
Chiara on Instagram
"How Democracies Die", Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt, 2018
"Coup D'Etat: A Practical Handbook", Edward Luttwak, 1968
History Of Myanmar
Thuma Collective
Yangon Photo Festival
Lensational (a collaboration for free photography education for women)
"Disclosure", Netflix, 2020
History Of Myanmar
Get Jim Kroft's Song, "Love In The Face Of Fear"
Mind the Bump
Yellow Van Stories is a Mind the Bump Production.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Yellow Van Stories
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Yellow Van Stories, your interview podcast taking you across the globe in a yellow French campervan by the name of Fonzie. I'm your host and driver Bastien.
Final Episode on Myanmar: Print for Crisis
00:00:30
Speaker
Today we come to you with the, for now, last episode about Myanmar.
00:00:35
Speaker
The initiative Print for Crisis, which has been on the road with us for the last four weeks, has come to an end and we thought it would be a nice opportunity to have a small retrospective of the conversations we were lucky enough to have in support of the initiative. Fonzie is in first gear already and we are good to
Chiara Luxardo: Visual Storytelling and Identity
00:00:54
Speaker
go. Starting off with Chiara Luxardo, the co-founder of the initiative, telling us about her relationship with Myanmar and her motivation to start Print for Crisis.
00:01:04
Speaker
after a proper introduction.
00:01:14
Speaker
Chiara is an Italian visual storyteller based in the UK and London. In her work, she explores identities, relationships, and gender issues. She's an active member of Women Photograph, a non-profit launched in 2017 to elevate the voices of women and non-binary visual journalists. The roots for her interest and identity in the power relationships can be traced back to a farm near Milan, I believe, at least where Chiara grew up.
00:01:38
Speaker
It is a place that has been in her family's hands for many generations and her love for the place still finds expression in her ongoing project, Family Farm. The Family Farm, the project, is an examination of the visual residue of previous generations in the form of old pictures, juxtaposing the findings with new original visual concepts and thereby galvanizing a new interpretive, dialectic space that speaks of history as a living process.
00:02:04
Speaker
never complete in its evaluation and heavily dependent on the viewer's current perspective and emotional state. History, after all, is narrated.
LGBTQI+ Projects in Myanmar
00:02:14
Speaker
Kiara also lived and worked in Myanmar from 2015 to 2019, where she focused on LGBTQI Plus projects and the organization of Yangon Pride.
00:02:24
Speaker
In her project, Burma Love, Chiara places gay couples in front of romantic studio backgrounds, heavily borrowing from aesthetics of Burmese wedding photos, expressing the yearning of gay couples to be accepted into the common standards and rituals of society, ultimately to be regarded as equals amongst equals.
00:02:42
Speaker
Her love for Myanmar is still very
Launching Print for Crisis: Freedom and Photography
00:02:44
Speaker
strong. In the light of the current democratic uprising against the military junta, with rising death tolls every day, Chiara and her friend Olga Steffat, to whom you might already know from the previous episode of the yellow then, launched the initiative Print for Crisis. Print for Crisis, sorry. The website states, and I think this is very important, to just also make people understand where this was born, how this was born, and what your intentions are. We believe, and I quote now,
00:03:11
Speaker
We believe in the power of photography and empathy for others. In times of perpetual connection through technology, we feel responsible to not only watch, but act. Living in a world that is traumatized by fear and uncertainty, we strongly believe that helping each other is more essential than ever. We are therefore coming together to support the people of Myanmar.
00:03:32
Speaker
United we raise awareness for freedom of expression Myanmar with a louder voice and collect funds through a print sale of limited edition fine art prints. We are giving a platform to photographers from inside the country and those from outside who feel connected to Myanmar to make a meaningful contribution to their brothers and sisters democracy struggle by donating a photograph.
00:03:54
Speaker
Each donated image will travel around the world to remind of beauty, connection and independence. Together, let's send a message to the Myanmar people that they are being seen. All net proceeds will go to journalists, photographers and artists, groups particularly targeted by the ruthless military regime.
00:04:13
Speaker
We at Mind the Bump and the Yellow Van absolutely share this belief in one human family and want to support this great idea as much as we can. So in this episode there, if I want to focus on what it is that made Kiara fall in love with Myanmar, why we should care about what's happening there at the moment and how help can be as simple as hanging a beautiful photo up on your wall. So thank you so much for joining us in the Yellow Van today. Kiara, that's the end of my little introduction.
00:04:39
Speaker
Wow, Bastia, I have no words. I mean, wonderful, I really... Yeah, I don't know what to say.
Yangon Pride: Cultural Shifts
00:04:47
Speaker
While living in Myanmar, Chiara actually became one of the organizers of the first ever Yangon Pride, the biggest LGBTQI plus festival of its kind at the time in Myanmar ever. I wanted to know from her how she stumbled into it and what it meant for her and how she perceived it.
00:05:05
Speaker
I did a project on tomboys and trans men in Myanmar with a colleague of mine, Sarah Mani. So she came over from Milan. She's also a good friend of mine. And we worked on this for a month together in Yangon. So we photographed 10 couples. And then I sent the project to the Yangon pride at the time, it was called M Proud because it was only a film festival at the beginning.
00:05:27
Speaker
And so I sent them the photo project. They had like a contest going on on the LGBT work and they loved it. And, you know, they got in touch and they said, Oh, we would really like to make an exhibition of it, of this blah, blah, blah. So I met them. They showed the project, um, initially, I think in a gallery. Yeah. And then.
00:05:51
Speaker
One of the people in the team was starting to work on the first public edition of Yangon Pride. So like the first proper, let's say, festival in a public space. So everything was growing. They finally got permission to do this from the municipality of Yangon.
00:06:15
Speaker
And he was just telling me how things were going. They were expecting thousands of people. They were building a big, big, big stage with celebrities' performance. They were planning many exhibitions, drag races, and lots of activities. And I remember he was quite slow. That sounds like a hell of a party. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was so amazing, I have to say. I wish I could go back there now.
00:06:44
Speaker
And yeah, so he was, I mean, he was really swamped with the organization. And I remember telling him, look, you know, if you, if you need some help, just, you know, let me know. And, and I would be, I would love to get involved. And so yeah, that's how it started. So a few months later, I, I was on board and helping them with the first edition.
00:07:07
Speaker
First of all, to organize something like the Yangon pride in Yangon and Myanmar, it's not just in Myanmar, but I think the world over, the more gay rights a country is willing to accommodate in their already pre-existing societal structures, it's also a sign of a society opening up.
00:07:27
Speaker
Right? At least that's my understanding. So this is also an indication how the society was opening up, therefore. So how would you describe the spirit at that time in general? Because you also did this project in transition, which is also a remarkable project, I think. And everybody, I will link to your website and people should really check out your wonderful projects and also that
00:07:52
Speaker
project in particular. It has to do with a lot of people with a lot of people. It has to do with people in transition in the sense of protesting for their rights, wanting to transform society, wanting change that they
00:08:08
Speaker
can be a part of because for 50 years already Myanmar had been under a military dictatorship and only in 2010, correct me if I'm wrong, I think they had the first democratic elections. Now we will not get into the details, not about how a quarter of those seats were still held by the military and so on and so on, but it was a huge step, right? And you got there six years after. What was the general feeling there at the time?
00:08:33
Speaker
Can you describe that? Imagine one big change was brought about with the internet because even when I moved there, when I was traveling there in 2014, actually, the connection was really slow and SIM cards were more expensive. The years before, they would even cost $100. Nobody would have an internet SIM card in, let's say, 2013, 2014.
00:09:02
Speaker
Internet came and it got really cheap quite fast And more and more internet companies Came out, you know, I mean the coverage until a few months ago now the whole country's shut down completely unfortunately from the internet but Before that you would find, you know farmers in the middle of nowhere with their phone connected on Facebook right recently so I
00:09:30
Speaker
I think that was a big kind of motor of change for people, for information, for freedom in a way. Of course, the internet has its downsides as well. You don't have to get into that, but this was a really... That's a whole other conversation. Yeah. And yeah, Yangon was the...
00:09:57
Speaker
exploding in terms of change, constructions, roads. It was really quite shocking how it changed in six months. You would just see a shopping mall suddenly boom. I remember in 2015, I couldn't find underwear for myself.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like in terms of like just normal coats on my size underwear. I was really struggling because there was one ball. And yeah, sometimes size was not good because I'm quite tall. Yeah. But yeah, you find... Well, when you're traveling, you know, when you're traveling,
00:10:48
Speaker
Exactly. And when you're traveling, we all know, you know, I mean, you can, you can get away with so much more stuff, you know, and, and even though you're living abroad and you're living in Myanmar, you can always just qualify as traveling. So it's totally fine. We're on the way inside out. You know, who cares? Nobody, nobody will change. So, um, yeah, exactly. So, so no harm done there. Uh, but, um, so what you're describing there is,
00:11:13
Speaker
there was a spirit of departure into a new era, right? I think it was something that was very much, it was in the air, it was almost touchable. More and more companies, yeah, more and more companies came in as well to do business, so many also local kind of small local initiatives in terms of even just tourism wise, the small family guest houses that finally
00:11:41
Speaker
would just pop up everywhere around the country. And this was just really recently because a decade ago it was just mostly government-run hotels. So it really underwent a crazy transformation in so many sectors.
Meeting Olga Steffat: A Partnership Begins
00:12:00
Speaker
I wanted to know from Chiara how she had met Auguste Fatou, the other co-founder of the initiative, and one of the earliest guests in the yellow van and a good friend of mine, the Bump, and how together they had developed the idea for Print for Crisis. In 2015, when I had just moved to Myanmar and she was in Yangon for one of her travels. So then we also did some traveling together. We stayed in touch. And one week after the coup, she reached out to me and said, Chiara, you know,
00:12:30
Speaker
We need to do something about this. I mean, you know, let's have a call. We really, really, really need to help and organize something from the photography community. So we had a nice chat and, you know, she said, why, what do you think about organizing a small print sale? Maybe we can gather, you know, 20 photographers and
00:12:55
Speaker
just do an online temporary sale and donate some proceeds to a certain cause. It's like, okay, great. So everything since then has exploded because we thought initially it was going to be something short and sweet, informal, small and manageable. It became a Titanic enterprise.
00:13:22
Speaker
But we are super happy and proud and excited because we managed to get together 80 photographers from all over the world including about 10 in the country and each of them donated one image that we are selling as a fully archival sea-type print for one month. So from today, well from
00:13:52
Speaker
12th of April to 12th of May. And we are donating all the net proceeds to media outlets and journalists support networks and networks supporting cash aid for artists. So basically everything related to freedom of expression, let's say. And it was the most natural
00:14:19
Speaker
let's say cause that came up for us as you know, to support our colleagues. And also the situation for both journalists and artists is really, really difficult. More than 60 journalists have been arrested to date and several are being charged under a law that basically condemns any sort of
00:14:48
Speaker
speaking up against the regime. There was a spike in arrests of also artists and celebrities that spoke up lately in the last few days. And more than 100 people are in hiding. I mean, the numbers could be a lot higher. But yeah, from the latest that that I was probably yeah, so quite a few photographers and journalists have been shot.
00:15:16
Speaker
And yeah, it's really a rewarding situation.
Teza Zaw: Gender and Photography
00:15:23
Speaker
So we're really hoping to make a meaningful contribution. I woke up too.
00:15:30
Speaker
phone call from my mom. I miss calls from my mom about, I think, four in the morning. And normally my parents never call me. We write to each other. So at first, I was so worried. I thought something had happened to either my mom or dad. So when I tried to bring them back, I couldn't get through to them. And then I woke, and I saw that my mom had sent me a load of messages saying that something terrible had happened and that, you know,
00:15:58
Speaker
military has staged a coup. So I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I said, please, not again, not again. This can't possibly be happening. And so I turned on the news, and it wasn't breaking news. So I was crying, and I was really worried. Because I think it has to do with disbelief that this can't possibly be happening again, that they can't.
00:16:22
Speaker
They can't do this to us again. And I'm repeatedly saying the word again, because they've done that many times. If you look at Myanmar's history, we've been under the dictatorship for decades since 1962, the first coup, and then 1988. And we've lived under the dictatorship for over 50 years, up until 2010.
00:16:48
Speaker
This democratic, you know, elected government only lasted for a decade and now they've jumped us to us again. This is Teza Zouei, a Burmese visual storyteller with a doctorate in photography living in London. Her work examines the role of women in Myanmar society and how gender roles and stereotypes can be overcome by photography. But let me best introduce you to her by reading the preface to her thesis.
00:17:15
Speaker
I left my country, Myanmar, when I was 16 to attend a university in Thailand. The reasons for me to leave home a familiar environment at such a young age to study abroad did not come easy. I vividly remember getting into the biggest argument ever with my parents just after the matriculation examination results came out. I still remember my total score was two points short of the cutoff point for the University of Medicine that year for women.
00:17:40
Speaker
That year the Ministry of Education had decided to raise the entry requirements for girls and reduce the requirement for boys because they felt that there had been too many women and not enough men in the country's most pivoted profession. Up until that point all my life I was told that the best thing I could achieve or the best profession I could get into as a woman in Myanmar is the medical profession.
00:18:03
Speaker
In that moment, I felt like my whole world had ended as if everything I had worked for the past 11 years counted for nothing. And then I learned that my friend who got a lower score than I did could apply for the medical school, although his total score was 15 points lower than mine, just because the requirements are set much lower for boys. That was the first time in my life I felt so angry for being born as a woman.
00:18:27
Speaker
It wasn't that I had failed. It wasn't that I didn't try hard enough. My only shortcoming was being a woman. My mother reminded me that it's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. And I know it happens to many other girls in my country. Our dreams and aspirations are taken away just because we are born female. At 16, with my lifelong dream shattered and with no other viable alternative path, I decided to leave my home.
00:18:56
Speaker
From that point on, my eyes were wide open and I began to notice a lot of things that women in my country are deprived of just because of our gender. This research is the way for me to address and expose the systemic gender oppression in Myanmar culture and how religion is used to justify gender inequality by evoking traditional beliefs and practices about how women and girls should be treated within society.
00:19:20
Speaker
In a way, it is created to demonstrate how photography can be employed to push back such outdated and toxic views towards women. After all, we humans must move forward and thrive for a better, more equal world for future generations. To achieve this, some traditions must evolve or be left behind.
00:19:45
Speaker
I understand how privileged I am to be able to leave the country to pursue my dreams and to be given this platform to discuss and debate the issues pertinent to the emancipation of women, Myanmar. I'm not claiming that this is the story of all Myanmar women. My experience may differ from other Myanmar women, as we all lead different lives and share different socioeconomic backgrounds. This is merely my experience of being a Myanmar woman for the past 31 years, and these are the questions I have for my country and our patriarchal society.
Societal Pressures vs. Passion
00:20:14
Speaker
I was never interested in medicine. I was never interested in, I didn't want to be a doctor, but that's what I was told that I should, you know, that's what I should aim for. And that's what I should be, because that's the best thing you could do as a woman. So that wasn't like, do you want to be a doctor? Are you interested in medicine? It wasn't like that. It was what you aspire to be when you grow up.
00:20:34
Speaker
to, you know, to go back to that time and to tell my parents that, for a moment that I want to be a photographer, you know, they would laugh at me and there was no such thing as women photographer back then. And that's not something that the women should do according to, you know, to our culture. It's so refreshing to see like women are starting to, you know, to do.
00:20:57
Speaker
to take part and play like important roles of photography industry in Myanmar now and for women or little girls to look up to do Myanmar women photographers such as do my collectives and you know and Meghal Nai who's in charge you know not who's like who's helped run and she's part of the the Yangon photo festival
00:21:16
Speaker
team and you know to have like such role models to look up to and which is such a which is a really amazing thing and I hope that more positive changes will happen and for that to happen for all you know for photographers and artists who continue to have like freedom of expression we need to win this this revolution because there is no alternative and if the military were to win and this coup and
00:21:43
Speaker
the country were to be put under the regime for like whatever they say like two year or whatever. Everything that the women photographers and you know and women activists work so hard for it will take a step back and and that's why I think you know this this is very important
00:22:02
Speaker
It's when I was in Myanmar, I didn't know where to seek for photography education. And that's why I said Doo Ma Collective is doing incredible things, you know, because they because they've been hosting, you know, free photography lectures, you know, for women and workshops and things like that. So we need more of those kind of sort of initiatives, but not just in Ranguba, all over Burma. And another thing is the access to digital cameras, because it's camera is off, you know, it's often an luxury item for many people in Myanmar. And
00:22:32
Speaker
And so it's not it's not going to be the priority thing, you know, even if you are interested in photography, it's not like one day they can go out and buy it off of the shop. So we need we really need access to digital cameras and and
00:22:49
Speaker
and also create safe platforms for women to practice photography. That's another important thing because as we've already discussed in our earlier discussion that the photography has ability to say and communicate things that we're not really sure of using through using our spoken language. So women might want to do
00:23:16
Speaker
to say something, but they're not quite sure and they might be quite worried that how it's going to affect them. So I think we also need a creative, you know, a safe environment for women to practice photography as well, without judgments and, you know, without repercussions for what they use, their photography. That's another important thing because under the military rule, they have instilled
00:23:38
Speaker
the fear in people that it became like a norm. When I was younger, we used to say things, oh, don't say that there will be a blue bus, meaning that the police vehicle will be waiting for you. We used to joke each other with friends that they'll say that the blue bus will be waiting for you or the blue bus gonna come and get you, kind of thing. And also after this revolution, because of the brutality that the military have shown towards photographers and journalists as well.
00:24:08
Speaker
So, you know, like not just women really, you know, men and women both were interested in photography, we need assurances that they can, you know, they have freedom of expression, and they can use their cameras to tell whatever stories they want to tell, and there will be no repercussions or they will be punished for that. So I think that's what's important to move forward from this. And also, of course, free photography education and access to cameras as well.
00:24:33
Speaker
In her thesis, Teza repeatedly talks about photography as a feminist tool, and I want to know why.
00:24:52
Speaker
meaning the next god. So for women to become a next god, they have to be really good to men in this life. And only then they can wish to be born as a man in their next life. And then they can try to become a boulder in their next life. So I think because of that,
00:25:16
Speaker
Sorry, can I just quickly say this? Because I came across this Myanmar proverb and I think that sums it up also very well. It says, I've stumbled across it a couple of times and it says, husband is God, son is master. Right? So this is quite a common proverb in Myanmar. It is. So the women's purpose
00:25:36
Speaker
in according to traditional gender roles is to serve your husband and your son. And don't talk back to your husband and don't argue with him and don't have opinions, things like that. But things have changed. And if you can see in this revolution, women are not only fighting for the political freedom, they're also fighting for equality in this revolution to fight for
00:26:05
Speaker
a true democracy where everybody is treated as equal. We're not saying women are better than men. We're saying women are equal to men and should have equal rights. And then it became a question of, hang on a second, our religion said women are lower than men. Are you questioning the religion? It is against the law.
00:26:24
Speaker
We don't want to support the movement which questions a religion. So it's quite difficult to use words to correct this misconception as well because it became like.
00:26:35
Speaker
like this, going into this rabbit hole of questioning the religion, this and the other. So there's another reason I'm using photography to show that look at these women that our society said women can't do this, but here they are doing these things and how incredible and strong they are. So in a way sort of to tackle that misconception as well, I suppose. So I think the form
00:27:01
Speaker
gender equality in Myanmar, I think photography can be a really useful tool to correct all these outdated views and misconceptions and stereotypes, I suppose.
Democracy in Myanmar: Challenges and Meanings
00:27:15
Speaker
Democracy. The ones who have it, take it for granted, and the ones who don't will often die for it. But what is democracy? How do we define it? A difficult question that I explore together with Minthe and Bo, a Burmese human rights consultant and independent election observer living in London as well. Let me introduce you to him.
00:27:40
Speaker
Mintent Bohr is a Burmese human rights consultant and independent election observer who provides political, conflict and legal analysis, program support and strategic advice to local civil society organizations, international non-governmental organizations and multilateral organizations. He has been on election expert missions to various countries and has functioned as a program officer of the Carter Center and as an independent advisor to the EU.
00:28:05
Speaker
Minh is a consultant to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and an educator against gender-based violence. Minh lives in London since 2018 and is a freshly baked dad with a wonderful daughter of eight months old. While he got into the field of human rights in the first place, the reasons for his strong disposition for democracy we will talk about today.
00:28:26
Speaker
And who better to give us an analysis of the current situation in Myanmar and to talk about the vulnerability of something which is taken for granted by the ones who have it, yearned and fought for by the ones who don't. Democracy. It's such a pleasure to have you on the yellow van today, Minh, and thank you very much for joining us.
00:28:44
Speaker
You're welcome. I'm flattered. Min has worked as an independent election observer in Kenya and in Myanmar. And I want to know what his work looks like, what he's looking out for to examine the validity of a democratic election.
00:28:59
Speaker
If you go there as an independent election observer, there must be something that's objective that you look out for, or how does it work. Enlighten me, because I'm just thinking, if you come from the outside, you have to probably look at some processes that are in place or some
00:29:19
Speaker
commissions or something. What do you look out for? What are the key indicators of a fair election and a working democracy for you when you go there on a mission like that? If you go on a mission, when you go there, the first thing is you have to follow this code of contacts and also with the international election standard. When you monitor elections, whether it's transparent,
00:29:44
Speaker
free and fair, and the involvement of the government, election governing body, either commission or governing body, or also the local stakeholders, political parties, and how the environment is a safe place. So it matters in everything. So first of all, it's just people look at it, it's based on the standard. But also the standard also varies, but universally based on universal human rights, you know,
00:30:12
Speaker
I would say, but also, but of course, there would be a different, I mean, slightly different methods, methodology, different standards, according to different election missions, you know, the Carter Center, the EU, and also the other like, you know, the different OSCE, so there are different missions, different standards, but basically look up for the, in accordance with the democratic standards, how the election, how the environment is, I would say.
00:30:40
Speaker
Okay, I understand that. Yes, you put that very well. I think what I take away, especially from what you said, is that universal human rights are very much at the basis of a democracy. They could almost be interchangeable as terms, just that one is a political
00:31:00
Speaker
machine, if you will, and the other thing is something that happens from human to human. Because this is a very interesting definition for me, definition, I know you didn't make it a definition, I'm just doing that now on my side. Because if you think also, I'm just taking a corner, cut the corner to the European Union, you know what's going on with refugee policy and everything in the European Union and how we are just putting our head in the sand, at least according to me, and trying to just
00:31:28
Speaker
push it all away from us and try to let other people handle it instead of coming up with good policies ourselves and violating universal human rights in that sense. That means also in the end, the less we respect the universal human rights in our society, the less actually we also respect our own democracy. Would you agree with me on that? I mean, the less we respect... Yes. I would say so. Yeah.
00:31:57
Speaker
It's just saying, the less we respect human rights, the less we respect our democracy. Yes. I mean, because also, like my experience, because when the military, the hunter was under control, ruling the country in Myanmar in mid-1990s, some of the generals, they started to use the term called Myanmar way of democracy, Burmese way of democracy, and Burmese way of doing things style.
00:32:23
Speaker
And then a certain journalist, you know, like, advocated, lobbied for it. I mean, just unfortunately, lobbied and advocated about it. But to me, when I grew up understanding was that there is only one democracy, there's only one human rights, and it's international, it's a global standard. There's only one thing. So like, like, if you are not respecting democracy, you know, human rights, and if you're not, then if you're not, if you're not respecting democracy, the same, there's only one, one, one, one, there's only one global standard.
00:32:50
Speaker
human rights and democracy for all citizens of the world. There's no version of it. So like, oh, I like to say either the European Union or either certain countries, we will do in this kind of way with different policies to certain group of people or individuals. But same time, we will do like democratic values in a way this way. It doesn't match because there's... Exactly.
00:33:12
Speaker
So that's my understanding. And that's also a part of my criticism every time I meet my friends, and especially my European friends, there's always a discussion going back and forth, you know, about Myanmar and about a bit of things like that, especially this kind of like the treatment towards certain groups of people. I mean, unfortunately, you know, people like either refugees or like internally displaced persons, you know, just like that. Sometimes, you know, governments have different policies for
00:33:41
Speaker
For certain, one of the tasks and mandate have a democratic values, but the way they treat us and people is a bit slightly different than that. To me, that's not respect, it's respecting democracy. There's no respect in human rights, because there's only one. So I agree with you, I mean, in that sense.
00:33:58
Speaker
In democracy, you also have to learn to respect somebody else's victory. I think that's very important. When I look to the USA now after the elections and Joe Biden's victory, I see how much divided the country still is and how people are even willing to go to lengths of saying it was all rigged, it's all false, it's all a lie because they don't want to look down the rabbit hole and just see, look,
00:34:26
Speaker
This is actually the other's one. And it's also totally fine. This is a democracy. This will happen. And I'm just wondering as well, is this maybe something also that is instilled in our societies, in our system, and the tight relationship that our democracies and capitalism has in that sense? Because in capitalism, we learn very often, and from the start,
00:34:52
Speaker
Like, if you don't win, you will lose, and another person's gain is your own loss, right? So this is very often propagated. So how can we expect to live in a society, in a democracy, respect other people's victories when we are taught from a very early age on, basically, that if we don't win, somebody else will. And that's not good.
00:35:14
Speaker
So shouldn't we maybe also have our education more or less rooted, maybe in that perspective, that in the end it's about a much bigger picture? No, it is. I truly agree. For example, I would say socialist values about respecting and then building and
00:35:36
Speaker
I mean, how can I say, a community, a society together, and sharing, for example, like welfare and everything, that is very important. I myself, as a Marxist socialist, and I have problems with capitalism and also the neoliberal charter of the European Union. I've always been a vocal critic of that with my friends.
00:35:57
Speaker
Oh, that same say, I just can't stand it. So like you said, okay, if you don't, if you don't win, you lost, then how can you respect others? You know, like it's, it's, it's a thing. And what you have seen the big countries, like, for example, that I mean, in my personal point of view, the US, it's never built to be a, I mean, like a socialist or social democratic country, it's basically built on capitalism, and all these things about greed and stuff. So that's why you see, in my opinion, you see,
00:36:23
Speaker
It's a lot of what's called division between people just can't take it easily. Of course, there are also such strong social democrat voices. There are some people, but still there are people still divided between these huge two parties, democrats and republicans, and then both of their own agendas are also in line with neoliberal policies. But then people are divided more and more in the last four years. And then what happened after Myanmar coup, when the military took over?
00:36:53
Speaker
There are certain right-wing, alt-right Trump supporters. I have friends of friends. They are not Trump supporters, but my friend's mother, she is a schoolteacher. So she worked with another teacher who is also a Republican supporter, so I would say alt-right sort of. Her son is actually in the US army. And so she told the lady about
00:37:19
Speaker
the coup in Myanmar, that it's happening right now. It's said that the military is taking over. It's going to happen in the US as well. Then we'll get rid of this election, electoral fraud and everything, the vote, and then President Trump will come back and the whole thing. Maybe it's this kind of thing that's happened in the past, but I've never heard this kind of thing that the division between, it's really, really, really, really, really big to have happened. Like you said, in the US, it's
00:37:47
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I don't know what to say in that sense. But I totally agree with you that not only, like I said, human rights and then democratic values, but also we also have to focus on that social economic failure as well. But that's an important way. Yes.
00:38:06
Speaker
I think anything in extremes can become problematic, doesn't have to, but can become. And just to qualify a little bit, I'm also not someone who storms out and is all against capitalism. I believe markets have been around forever since we exist as humans in some sort of societal form. It is just when everything else has to yield to this one idea. That's when it becomes problematic. And I think this is what's happened
00:38:36
Speaker
and a lot of our societies, and this is what's happened in our extreme form of capitalism, the way that we are practicing it right now, where we're bowing to efficiency in everything, whereas I do believe actually in nature, nature is not based on efficiency, nature is rooted in abundance,
00:38:59
Speaker
and in giving away a plenty, right? And I think we have some sort of misconceptions about how things work together. But that's my personal view, right? I don't have to convince anyone, but I do believe at least the two of us are on the same page now.
00:39:20
Speaker
Either you have to argue in a strong way, but like I said, I like talking in a different view, so it's fine. I just said my own perspective is either talk longer or just agree straight away. And then I think I found it to agree straight away, yeah, because I would start talking, because that's all my life. I think it's 20 years, 20 years, 22 years now, like 17, 18, this kind of view. And also, interesting thing, my friends,
00:39:50
Speaker
in Myanmar. And also other friends say, there's this, I don't know, I forgot the exact code. It basically saying that when you get older, right, you become more and more conservative, you know, and more and more right, you know, something like that. But to me, I think I became more and more strong left. And the more and more vocal this, more and more extreme than I used to be when I was 15. So it's very interesting. But some of my some of my friends I've seen
00:40:14
Speaker
they were like me, but after like 20 years right now, 20, 25 years, they are more like centrist right now. And some of them are already in the right leaning. So it's very interesting. I mean, it's part of spectrum, you know, you can always agree with your degree and it's a democracy. So that's fine. No, that's fine with me. Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah. It's just a friend's discussion, friendly discussion, always tease each other like, Oh, what happened to you? Oh, what happened to you? Oh, you going this way. Oh, you're going totally opposite. Yeah. It's yeah.
00:40:39
Speaker
But you're pointing out something so valuable because we are really moving into a time as well, I believe, where we are all more and more in bubbles and we always want to
00:40:51
Speaker
agree with everyone or have people agree with us, I think that's the better way to put it. I'm also, I'm as much a victim to that as anybody else, of course. And I try and make a conscious effort to get out of there as well. So that's why it is so important, for instance, to have other points of view and to have conversations with people that do have, see things differently. And this can only function if we respect each other's points of view.
00:41:21
Speaker
and just free ourselves from our own subjectivity, if that makes any sense.
Ethnic Divisions in Myanmar
00:41:30
Speaker
Myanmar's multi-ethnicity is a root cause of its political division and a reason for military rule. I ask Min about the historical origins of this division and how he thinks it can be overcome.
00:41:44
Speaker
you can't stop anything if there is nothing in the root cause itself. It's back to the colonial era, how the divided rule, how you see different things, for example, like a Bama Buddhist, the whole divided rule of things, they will see other ethnic minorities in a different way that they are in a different kind of certain group.
00:42:08
Speaker
the strong, what's it called, the regulatory terms, which is a subgroup. And also, because of the divine rules, sometimes ethnic groups also see Myanmar in a different way. So it's already there. So basically, military basically instigated a bit of fire and then used that for their own personal gain. So my thesis was based on my argument. I was defending military. I was just saying how the system started about the divine rule, the English, the British. How did that work? Just quickly, while we're there, how did the divine rule work?
00:42:41
Speaker
For example, the central plains, the central Myanmar, the central Burma, also the hill tribes region, the mountains, also the accountants.
00:42:54
Speaker
basically just deal with them differently. So as you basically make them insecure, you basically just say, these people are these, and then sometimes you always give and take, sometimes you'll really give a favor to different other states, other region, and sometimes you play by it, so a bit hate each other.
00:43:16
Speaker
the whole another another concept that you're using people as collateral in a way like you basically saying look if you don't do this the others will do it or like this so yeah basically it's a it's a very cynical way of bartering
00:43:30
Speaker
as well. Yeah, it is. For example, one of the incidents happened in 1932. It was that Yangon, the dock walkers strike, for example. So what happened was that the labor union asked for a race. And then the British India Company, they didn't
00:43:54
Speaker
want to give a race. And then there is also... Oh, sorry. What happened was that the Indian workers asked for a race and then they didn't give a race. So they basically fired all of them.
00:44:12
Speaker
of the left. And then there are certain people who are brought in by the British who can walk with a cheaper rate. They start walking. And then the actual people basically came back, and then they thought that these people are taking their jobs. So what happened was there was basically a strike and a bit of a massacre, just killing 100 people overnight and through their bodies by the Yangon River.
00:44:34
Speaker
And it's basically indicated by the English in general, in a sense. Of course, later after people died, they kind of sorted out in the labor union and then it was kind of settled, but still. And also when Myanmar was under the English rule, English also brought in, for example, Indian local businessmen, and then who has money, and then also had to deal with the English government in general. So they basically owned lands.
00:45:04
Speaker
and doing business. It depends on it. For example, there are also some other Burmese businessmen as well, also other Chinese businessmen as well. But how did the English portray in a sense that just to see divided, for Burmese to see them, especially to the Indians, like these guys are coming in and they're taking our lens, like taking our people, taking our women. So this kind of like indirectly, they will never
00:45:29
Speaker
publicly say it, of course, to hate them, but the how things start to do it. So all these things are basically rooted. And then after a certain time, just boom, I would just see especially the Indian as a, like, another, like, a foreigner, no bloodsuckers coming to the country, and then just take it, you know, also,
00:45:48
Speaker
Right now, because of coup, another anti-Chinese rhetoric is coming in. China is taking over Myanmar. It's just this whole thing. It's basically, I think, all based on this divided rule and also this insecurity and also the nationalism.
00:46:05
Speaker
I think what I'm taking away from this is, in Myanmar, because of this history that you have just described, because of a personal cult that is also based on, like you pointed out, the discrimination of certain ethnic groups, based on a long history of that, based on the structure of the military that created a society as well, obviously in its own image.
00:46:31
Speaker
And then going back to what we said very much in the beginning of universal human rights, being an indicator and the very foundation of democracy, this is most probably the biggest challenge then for Burmese society to overcome these societal structures as they have been established over years.
00:46:49
Speaker
and come together as one, respecting each other as one with all the differences, and only this will be leading the way to democracy, ultimately. To a federal union, democratic federal union. That's what we are fighting for right now, and I totally agree with that. But we also need more ethnic minorities and then more inclusive government.
00:47:16
Speaker
The conversation with men brought a lot to the surface about my own relationship with democracy and about my contribution to it.
Respecting Opinions in Democracy
00:47:28
Speaker
I would therefore like to share the outro of the episode with you, my own reflections, for as little or as much value as you give them. And with this, we've come to the end of this week's trip in the Yellow Van, an episode triggering a lot of realizations in me.
00:47:46
Speaker
For instance, how the strength of a free pluralistic and democratic society lies in my understanding of opposition as the very blessing I so often wrongfully seek in outside confirmation. Because, after all, our democracies are vulnerable. And they will only ever be as strong as my relationship and respect with the ones of a contrary opinion to my own.
00:48:14
Speaker
Democratic preservation is therefore something that starts with me, not with the others. The feeling of superiority has on many an occasion been instilled in me, leading to a missionary cell that breaks relationships instead of building them. Through my conversations with Teza and Min, I learned that there are a lot of reasons for hope and optimism for the future of Myanmar.
00:48:43
Speaker
One reason in particular is the role of the Burmese women, who are not only fighting for political freedom, but for a society built on equality. Their blossoming self-esteem is a weapon, and there is no turning back of the clock. And Teza will tell you why. Aung San Suu Kyi has been detained along with many of her leadership
00:49:10
Speaker
positions from her party. So people didn't have any leader in this revolution. So that's another exciting thing about this revolution, because there is no one person leading this. Everybody is leading this revolution and stuff. So on 4th of February, Ethan's our mom. She was one of the first ones to stop marching.
00:49:31
Speaker
on the on you know on the street and there are many thousands of people joined in so she became sort of became the face of it you know so if you think about like promise proverbs saying women are weak and defenseless and you know that women women need men's protection and this and the other but when you look at her she's she's do you know what i mean she's defying the the traditional belief that women shouldn't be leaders or women shouldn't be
00:49:58
Speaker
you know, women should be in the kitchen pretty much, you know. So, and so it's really exciting and she's only 27 years old and I believe, yeah. So, and after that, after there's so, you know, loads of women joined in and on International Women's Day this year, we did a sarong revolution. So what I did is that because of the traditional belief and religion in Myanmar,
00:50:25
Speaker
Like women cannot wash their anti-government and skirts or things together with men's clothes because they believe that that can prevent the power of the men. So it's sort of, it's very outdated and it came from the religion again. So because of that,
00:50:46
Speaker
What women did was they hang their intergarments and sarongs on the street to deter the soldiers from getting through. So to get through, because the soldiers were so worried of their power, the mysterious power that men have, being polluted by women's intergarments, they have to get out of the car and remove the sarongs.
00:51:05
Speaker
So that gave the time to protest, to get away. So if women use this as a weapon to fight back. So on International Women's Day, so many women march.
00:51:17
Speaker
I absolutely love that. Yeah, women's march holding their sarong and many men even march along with women wearing sarong on their head to show that they don't believe in this updated, you know, stereotypes, which to me is incredible because now men, you know, like from men from this generation are also starting to see that all these, you know, women's and their governments will make my pollute our power and this and the
Women in Myanmar's Political Movements
00:51:41
Speaker
other. They're starting to see through, you know, all these, like,
00:51:46
Speaker
Traditional and outdated and baseless, you know, stereotypes and teaching. And they don't, they don't believe it anymore. So I think that is quite incredible. Allow me to share my closing thoughts of Teza's episode with you as well, because equal rights and gender equality are as relevant as ever and concern us all, no matter where we are.
Gender Equality: Progress and Challenges
00:52:11
Speaker
Discrimination against women is still found everywhere, ranging from brutally obvious to structural subtleties.
00:52:20
Speaker
The only way to change this is to become aware of our prejudices and how they in turn narrow our perception. It is not about everybody being the same, but rather to give equal opportunity to all. It is our best way forward to include everybody to face the challenges that lie ahead. Climate change being the single greatest catastrophe mankind ever had to face. So we owe it to no one, but to ourselves.
00:52:51
Speaker
In Germany, where I was born, I often come across a self-congratulatory attitude with regards to improving the role of women in society. Haven't we done enough already? Yet, for two weeks, ever since announcing her run for office, Anna-Lena Berbock, the Green Party's candidate for the chancellorship in this year's upcoming German parliamentary elections, had to face one question more than any other.
00:53:18
Speaker
how she will manage her role as a mother of two small children and the highest office in German politics at the same time. No male contender in the history of the Federal Republic of Germany ever had to face up to this question. Why do you think that is? And with this, we've come to the end of our trip to Myanmar.
Season Wrap-Up and Thank You
00:53:43
Speaker
For now.
00:53:45
Speaker
It was, and always will be, an extraordinary ride for me. And I hope you could take away a little something for yourself as well. We want to thank Teza, Kiara and Min for coming on the yellow van to share their thoughts and insights with us, and Kiara and Olga for facilitating the conversations. News just reached us that Print for Crisis has been extended for another 24 hours.
00:54:11
Speaker
And even if you are just in it for a nice affordable limited edition fine art print for your wall, this is a great opportunity to fill that nagging blank space above your dinner table. Because, as it turns out, doing good for yourself as well as others doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. So go get your print now while you still can.
00:54:35
Speaker
The yellow van will take a summer break until 19th of August for some repair works in preparation for next season. We've covered a lot of ground since October and Fonzie needs an oil change, amongst other things. Not that he would admit to that of course. New guests already lined up, for instance an opera singer that ran away with a circus and an author telling us about the art of writing a book during a pandemic.
00:55:03
Speaker
Thank you so, so much for coming along on the yellow van. We hope you enjoyed your time on the road with us. We sure enjoyed our time with you. We will really miss you over the next two months and we are already looking forward to departing together with you again. Until then, stay healthy, keep loving, and always remember, we are one human family. Take it away, Jim.
00:55:41
Speaker
My message is clear Keep loving in the face of fear Keep shouting that you are here Talking about bells and dears
00:56:41
Speaker
It's the fact of your life, all you standing for your rights
00:57:04
Speaker
You're standing